Speaker 1: Apoche production.
Speaker 2: The moment Brittany was convicted, Australia's media went into overdrive.
Speaker 3: The court her dwire was motivated by money.
Speaker 4: Why did she really do it?
Speaker 3: Whire will be eligible for parole two thousand and thirty seven.
Speaker 1: Burns was jailed for.
Speaker 2: Thirty Everyone wanted the story. A story like this happens
Speaker 2: in America or on TV shows, But it doesn't happen
Speaker 2: in Australia, and it doesn't happen with a girl from
Speaker 2: Brisbane who kills her granddad in Adelaide. I remember seeing
Speaker 2: this story for the first time on the TV show
Speaker 2: Sunday Night with Melissa Doyle.
Speaker 1: How did this girl, Brittany turn into a monster? What
Speaker 1: are the signs that I missed?
Speaker 4: She murdered her own grandfather then went back to doing
Speaker 4: the dishes.
Speaker 2: It was my.
Speaker 3: Daughter killed him.
Speaker 4: An Australian horror story. Her family speak exclusively to.
Speaker 3: Sunday Night that anger that's inside.
Speaker 5: Never did I think that she was dark?
Speaker 1: There's lies. We were there together with his killer. Now
Speaker 1: will her partner and crime finally come clean?
Speaker 3: You could have stopped it.
Speaker 5: Do you want to say sorry?
Speaker 4: Why did you really do it?
Speaker 6: Could she just be pure?
Speaker 3: Cold, hard evil.
Speaker 6: She'ssichopath.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You talked about the media in our interview and
Speaker 2: you said, you know, there was a storm of media
Speaker 2: attention once, not necessarily when your grandfather first died, but
Speaker 2: once they worked out that your sister was the one
Speaker 2: that did it. What was the decision to do the
Speaker 2: Sunday Night program?
Speaker 7: We were sort of bombarded with a lot of media
Speaker 7: and we had certainly a lot of people coming to
Speaker 7: us about wanting to do a story, and everybody's opinion
Speaker 7: was very much of this is what we would like
Speaker 7: to do, you know, are you going to be a
Speaker 7: part of it?
Speaker 1: Essentially?
Speaker 7: And the only I guess producer from any show that
Speaker 7: actually said to us what would you like to get
Speaker 7: out of it and how would you like the story
Speaker 7: to be framed?
Speaker 1: With such empathy.
Speaker 7: Was the team at Sunday Night, particularly the producer Naima,
Speaker 7: and we met up for dinner on the Gold Coast,
Speaker 7: and the way that she sort of spoke to us
Speaker 7: on the phone, it was to me at the beginning,
Speaker 7: she genuinely, genuinely sorry, actually just spoke to me as
Speaker 7: a person and rather than like a salacious story and said,
Speaker 7: you know, is there anything that we can help throughout
Speaker 7: this process too, is the information you would like to
Speaker 7: find out? You know, we do have those resources. So
Speaker 7: that essentially started off the conversation. She was really good.
Speaker 7: There was you know, no pushing or I didn't feel
Speaker 7: like we were on a deadline, even though I'm sure
Speaker 7: they were. And then the next steps was to actually
Speaker 7: meet Melissa Doyle and that sort of solidified it for us.
Speaker 7: The genuine care that she had that we felt from
Speaker 7: her just made it the right fit. And I'm really
Speaker 7: glad we did it because it ended up you know,
Speaker 7: we got to say the story from our perspective and
Speaker 7: how to influenced our family, but also it was very therapeutic.
Speaker 2: By a long after was it that you got to
Speaker 2: talk to them?
Speaker 7: I think it was shortly we filmed, and I think
Speaker 7: it aired pretty quickly, just before sentencing, because I know
Speaker 7: they had to release an update by the time the
Speaker 7: show aired. That sentencing is like in a week or something.
Speaker 7: From memory, So it.
Speaker 2: Was and your mom mel Doyle and your Mum's still close.
Speaker 7: Now, yeah, absolutely, I mean it just goes to show
Speaker 7: what a beautiful person mel is but consistently reaches out
Speaker 7: to my mom and I sends emails at saying, you know,
Speaker 7: Merry Christmas, I hope you're doing well. They still chat
Speaker 7: quite regularly, consistently, keeps checking in, which.
Speaker 1: Is really nice.
Speaker 7: And that story was obviously released I think in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 7: so much that you know, Mum's not one to want
Speaker 7: to do these sort of things, but you know, if
Speaker 7: Mel gives her a call, she'll do what Mel wants
Speaker 7: because of you know, the relationship that that formed.
Speaker 2: We've been talking for a while about doing this podcast.
Speaker 2: You have some reluctance to start with. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2: What's what was the reluctance to start with?
Speaker 7: Ah, you know, I think a big part of it is,
Speaker 7: you know, reliving the story.
Speaker 1: You know, I.
Speaker 7: Do quite well at the fact of being able to
Speaker 7: sort of split myself into and sort of think.
Speaker 1: About it has a story that I.
Speaker 7: Would potentially want to watch on a TV show or
Speaker 7: on a podcast, but then at the same time knowing
Speaker 7: that it's my own story, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: And I think when you're.
Speaker 7: Physically being interviewed and reliving it, it brings up a
Speaker 7: lot of emotion and it is very draining and upsetting
Speaker 7: as anyone could imagine. But I think I was nervous
Speaker 7: to do it as well, because you know, I want
Speaker 7: to do it justice in a way.
Speaker 2: Melissa Doyle is the host of Sunday Night and has
Speaker 2: become really close to the family. She recently made the
Speaker 2: trip up to Queensland to visit Tanya. Years after this
Speaker 2: made the headlines in twenty twenty two, Melissa also wrote
Speaker 2: a book called fifteen Seconds of Brave.
Speaker 7: I actually have a card that Melissa Doyle hand delivered
Speaker 7: to my mum with a copy of her book, which
Speaker 7: was called fifteen second of Brave.
Speaker 4: How do you mean had delivered like she flew up Sydney.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she actually flew up from Sydney.
Speaker 7: She was doing her book tour and actually hand when
Speaker 7: and saw Mum and hand delivered it to her as
Speaker 7: a big thank you for being a part of the
Speaker 7: being a part of the book. Melissa actually chose Mum
Speaker 7: to be the opening chapter of the book as well,
Speaker 7: so she picked I think it's seven specific stories and
Speaker 7: her whole journalism career that just never left her. But
Speaker 7: it wasn't so much about the story. It was more
Speaker 7: about the amazing attitude that somebody has after all that happens.
Speaker 3: I initially considered writing a book about resilience for personal reasons.
Speaker 3: At the beginning of twenty twenty, my fiftieth birthday lurked
Speaker 3: ominously around the corner. Meanwhile, Sunday night, the public affairs
Speaker 3: program I hosted for Channel seven, had just been canceled,
Speaker 3: and I'd begun to worry my future with seven, the
Speaker 3: station that had been like a home to me for
Speaker 3: twenty five.
Speaker 1: One.
Speaker 3: Tanya. The first time I encountered Tanya Wickwell in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 3: just over a year had passed since her quiet, happy
Speaker 3: life in the Brisbane suburbs ended and a traumatic new
Speaker 3: existence appeared in front of her. It is no exaggeration
Speaker 3: to say she was the most broken person I'd met
Speaker 3: in all my years covering the news. Emotionally, Tanya was
Speaker 3: on her knees, it showed in her tired eyes, and
Speaker 3: she told me with a fragile half smile that she
Speaker 3: was hardly sleeping at night. Knowing in broad brushstrokes what
Speaker 3: Tanya had endured, I dared not ask about the thoughts
Speaker 3: that stalked her in those cursed hours of lonely wakefulness.
Speaker 7: The book is actually named fifteen Seconds of Brave because
Speaker 7: there was a little boy who underwent a lot of
Speaker 7: different treatments and he just said, you know, to get
Speaker 7: through this, I just have to be brave for fifteen seconds.
Speaker 7: And I think it's actually it's a beautiful book. I've
Speaker 7: read it a few times. The inside the card, it says,
Speaker 7: dearest Tanya, thank you so much for agreeing to be
Speaker 7: a part of my book and sharing so much of
Speaker 7: your life and its challenges with me. This feels like
Speaker 7: the most precious and valuable project I have ever had
Speaker 7: the honor of working on, and I have no doubt
Speaker 7: your wise words and bravery will be a lifeline to
Speaker 7: many readers. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Speaker 7: Love you always.
Speaker 1: Mel.
Speaker 3: My pain is all on the inside, she points out,
Speaker 3: there are no scars, It's just hurting and no one
Speaker 3: can see it. So Tanya decided to mark each milestone
Speaker 3: of her journey. Her first tattoo was the word Dad
Speaker 3: next to a blue rose on the inside.
Speaker 6: Of her right reason.
Speaker 1: There was many times that.
Speaker 7: Whilst I was filming with Mel, someone looking back at
Speaker 7: me was equally as emotional and crying like me. And
Speaker 7: it just goes to show you, know those stories, you know,
Speaker 7: she's not just doing it for a story like that
Speaker 7: is obviously a part of the job, but she genuinely
Speaker 7: has feelings and his feeling as well. And I remember
Speaker 7: saying to her, you know, you know you're also getting emotional,
Speaker 7: and She's like, the day I stopped getting emotional is
Speaker 7: the day that I resign and I finish up, because
Speaker 7: then it means I'm not being affected by these stories
Speaker 7: anymore and it's not worth it.
Speaker 2: As part of that Sunday night program, there was another
Speaker 2: guest on that show. Yeah, obviously it wasn't filmed at
Speaker 2: the same time. You know, you didn't see each other, No,
Speaker 2: but you would have watched the show. You probably watched
Speaker 2: it live.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking I did.
Speaker 2: Yes, that guest on the show was Shelby, who.
Speaker 1: Was on remand at the time, I believe.
Speaker 2: Talk to me about how you felt about her on Telly.
Speaker 7: They had asked us, when I say they, the producers
Speaker 7: of the show had asked us if we would mind
Speaker 7: if she was involved, And at the time, I thought
Speaker 7: it would be great get her on board because.
Speaker 1: I knew I knew how it would pan out. I
Speaker 1: knew that.
Speaker 7: It would make her look quite guilty and that she
Speaker 7: isn't that remorseful from what I could experience. So that's
Speaker 7: from what I did experience with her. So I sort
Speaker 7: of figured it'll go one of two ways. I'll either
Speaker 7: make her look really good and she redeems herself in
Speaker 7: the eyes of the public, or you'll go the way
Speaker 7: that I think it will go and it will do
Speaker 7: exactly what I think it is and she won't look
Speaker 7: so great at all. And that's the way it did go.
Speaker 7: And so when I actually saw it live on TP
Speaker 7: just filled me with rage. Honestly, who were you with?
Speaker 7: I was with my mum and my grandmother. We were
Speaker 7: watching it live at my house in Karendale, and we
Speaker 7: when that component came on, we just felt that she
Speaker 7: didn't take any responsibility for the part.
Speaker 1: Her mother was pressing her to say.
Speaker 7: Sorry and that's what they want to hear, and you know,
Speaker 7: just do it and sort of move on. And you
Speaker 7: know that you can see the body language throughout that
Speaker 7: segment as well, and yeah, it just it made us
Speaker 7: all very angry. Like I said, we also knew that
Speaker 7: that's probably how it was going to turn out. She
Speaker 7: had the ability to set the record straight for her,
Speaker 7: and you know, there was one particular scene that Mel
Speaker 7: asked her, is you know, why didn't you say anything?
Speaker 7: Why didn't you reach out to Tanya? Why didn't you
Speaker 7: call the police? Why didn't you just do something? And
Speaker 7: she just sort of shrugs it off and goes, well,
Speaker 7: I thought it was a big joke.
Speaker 1: And I think that was the part that just I
Speaker 1: was so angry. I'm just like, that is such a.
Speaker 7: Blazing disregard for the whole scenario that we face, and
Speaker 7: just she was the first person to actually get some
Speaker 7: sort of this, some sort of information from Brittany that
Speaker 7: we could have stopped it in its tracks there and then,
Speaker 7: but instead it escalated way past Shelby's.
Speaker 2: Ryan's right to have an opinion on how Shelby seemed
Speaker 2: on TV the night that it aired in Australia, This story,
Speaker 2: the story of Brittany murdering her granddad, is hard to
Speaker 2: escape for the family, even on holidays overseas, the story
Speaker 2: re is its ugly head.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 7: So I went to America for my thirtieth birthday. It
Speaker 7: was a five week trip around the country to celebrate.
Speaker 1: I was actually in.
Speaker 7: Las Vegas at the time, and I was watching one
Speaker 7: of their True Crime channels that they just have on
Speaker 7: consistently twenty four hours a day, and a story popped
Speaker 7: up which seemed quite familiar to me, and it actually
Speaker 7: was a story that they had filmed in their own
Speaker 7: account about the murder of my grandfather.
Speaker 6: Nothing brightens a grandparents' day more than seeing their grandchildren.
Speaker 5: Hi, grandfather, you do.
Speaker 6: In August twenty sixteen, Brittany Dwyer surprises her grandpa, eighty
Speaker 6: one year old Robert Whitwell.
Speaker 1: She's welcomed in with open arms.
Speaker 2: I love it, she too, Grandpa, I haven't seen you
Speaker 2: in ages.
Speaker 6: Her grandfather was so glad to see her, it had
Speaker 6: been so long. The tyranny of distance keeps them apart.
Speaker 6: Robert lives in South Australia, while nineteen year old Brittany
Speaker 6: is from the north in Queensland.
Speaker 7: Brittany and her grandfather had a close relationship even though
Speaker 7: they were twelve hundred miles apart.
Speaker 1: They spoke, they interacted.
Speaker 7: The actors weren't anybody notable, but it was clearly filmed
Speaker 7: with American people in mind to place at roles and
Speaker 7: then a lot of the interview use and the characters
Speaker 7: were Australian and I've chose to block out a lot
Speaker 7: of things. So again, yeah, deep diving into that is
Speaker 7: you know, it's difficult.
Speaker 2: And how hard has that been reliving? You know, we've
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time together talking and asking questions
Speaker 2: that are you know, they're hard because they're going back
Speaker 2: into the depths of Hey, what do you remember about
Speaker 2: this time? How did you feel? Yeah, how has that
Speaker 2: been for your own mental health over the last times
Speaker 2: were recorded?
Speaker 7: Well, it's it's physically exhausting, you know, you just want
Speaker 7: to you know, shortly after our first meeting, I went
Speaker 7: back to the hotel room and I had to just
Speaker 7: like get into bed and like wrap myself up, so
Speaker 7: to speak, because you just feel like you need to
Speaker 7: decompress and absorb everything you've sort of spoken about.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's it's hard. I would definitely say it's hard.
Speaker 2: You notice we've spoken to Ryan a lot in this podcast.
Speaker 2: It really is his account of the story. We did
Speaker 2: reach out to others to play a part, including Shelby,
Speaker 2: her lawyers, and other people, but we made the choice,
Speaker 2: given the name of the show, that this was Ryan's
Speaker 2: telling of his story. We did want to talk to Tanya,
Speaker 2: Ryan's mum to see how she felt, and there was
Speaker 2: a bit of nervousness from Ryan about what that might
Speaker 2: look like. We decided that a good way to deal
Speaker 2: with it might be for Ryan to chat with her
Speaker 2: and then, with her permission, us being able to air
Speaker 2: that call in the podcast.
Speaker 7: It's even more exhausting for her so to speak physically
Speaker 7: and mentally draining that once it's done, she sort of
Speaker 7: just goes, Okay, it's done. Now, I don't want to
Speaker 7: do it anymore. So we have limited time to be
Speaker 7: able to do that. I know that it will be
Speaker 7: quite upsetting and hard for her to do, even just
Speaker 7: an informal chat like that. I mean, her and I
Speaker 7: talk about the situation a lot, but I sort of
Speaker 7: allow her to lead the conversation in that and talk
Speaker 7: about what she wants to talk about.
Speaker 1: At that time.
Speaker 8: I guess, now, you know, talking about everything. Do you
Speaker 8: do you still think about her? Now?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 8: How often do you do you think about Oh?
Speaker 9: Every day? Every single day? I think about it.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean I'm the same. I can say that
Speaker 8: I think every single day. At some point in the
Speaker 8: day I think about it, and people ask me, you know,
Speaker 8: are you angry or are you are you do forgive
Speaker 8: her and am every day is different? Do you find that?
Speaker 9: No, I'm still at the I remember I was really
Speaker 9: angry in the beginning and been sad, and you go
Speaker 9: through different emotions, but I'm still I still have hopes
Speaker 9: that we will talk one day and she will fill
Speaker 9: in the blanket for me. I mean, she's going to
Speaker 9: be forty when she gets out of jail, so you know,
Speaker 9: that's not really that old, so she's still got, you know,
Speaker 9: a few years to live after that, and I mean
Speaker 9: maybe Grandma won't be around then, or all her grandparents
Speaker 9: and I might be. And I don't know if she'll
Speaker 9: continue to live in Adelaide or if she'll move back
Speaker 9: up here or whatever. But I am hoping that we
Speaker 9: will talk one day.
Speaker 8: I mean that's even depends on if she gets the
Speaker 8: role so that she can get life. So she has
Speaker 8: to apply for the role at that time to see
Speaker 8: if you get out. But I guess after you know,
Speaker 8: you are hopeful that you've talk. Do you think that
Speaker 8: would leave lead into forgiveness?
Speaker 9: Not one business? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know about
Speaker 9: the forgiveness. I don't know if I can ever forget,
Speaker 9: because this is just I didn't ever think that anyone
Speaker 9: could turn my world upside down. You know, I was strong,
Speaker 9: independent woman before, and I didn't think anyone could ever
Speaker 9: flit my world around like it did. But yeah she did.
Speaker 9: And yeah, there's a lot of a lot of hurt
Speaker 9: in the heavy hearts.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and how do you feel about it all? Now?
Speaker 9: I take each day as it comes. You know, you're
Speaker 9: always going to have bad days when it's an anniversary
Speaker 9: or Father's Day or Dad's poppy birthday and things like that.
Speaker 9: But I've learnt to keep myself busy and you know,
Speaker 9: I'll go out that day so the day goes faster
Speaker 9: and keep my mind occupied and things like that. You know,
Speaker 9: knowing that Brittany's birthday is coming up soon and things
Speaker 9: like that. It's always on my mind. But then the
Speaker 9: day comes and it's like, you know, it's a little
Speaker 9: bit easier than last year or the year before and
Speaker 9: things like that. If you do learn to cope year
Speaker 9: after year.
Speaker 8: I still find all the anniversary is pretty difficult that
Speaker 8: I try to. Yeah, I stay busy or I'll work
Speaker 8: from home and I try to. I guess, if like
Speaker 8: Pop his birthday and I guess, you know, the day
Speaker 8: he passed away, I'll try to like light a candle
Speaker 8: and make sure that I really think of him. I
Speaker 8: think Brittany's birthday is probably actually the hardest for me
Speaker 8: because it's crazy to think, you know, the age that
Speaker 8: she is at now, and she went in and you know,
Speaker 8: she was just shy of like, I think she's just
Speaker 8: her nineteen when she went in and was arrested, and
Speaker 8: now you know, she's only five years behind me, so
Speaker 8: you know, she's getting up there in age, and it's
Speaker 8: just crazy that this whole, her whole life is gone.
Speaker 9: And I do wonder what kind of person she is
Speaker 9: now because there's where she is. She toughened up and
Speaker 9: hardened up. And yeah, there's a lot of questions to
Speaker 9: be answered.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, Why did you want to do a podcast?
Speaker 8: Now?
Speaker 7: You know, it's one of those things that will always
Speaker 7: be with me. You know, there's no escaping it.
Speaker 1: I think being able to.
Speaker 7: Talk about the story from a perspective now that I've
Speaker 7: been able to sit.
Speaker 1: With it for a little while.
Speaker 7: You know, it's been a few years now, there has
Speaker 7: been conversations with her, and I see it in an
Speaker 7: indifferent light compared to what it was like when I
Speaker 7: first was going through it, so I wanted to I
Speaker 7: wanted to sort of refresh, if that makes sense, and
Speaker 7: do the podcast.
Speaker 2: Brittany Dwyer was sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder
Speaker 2: of her proper Robert. She'll serve a minimum of twenty
Speaker 2: years without parole. She'll be eligible for parole in twenty
Speaker 2: thirty six. She'll be thirty nine years old. Bernadette Burns
Speaker 2: was sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder of Robert.
Speaker 2: She'll serve a minimum thirteen and a half years without
Speaker 2: parole and will be eligible for parole in twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 5: Miss Burns, you also must receive punishment that is fitting
Speaker 5: and deserved. Your level of culpability is, of course, much
Speaker 5: less than that of Missdwire. You did not intend to
Speaker 5: have mister Whitwell killed or to suffer really serious bodily harm. However,
Speaker 5: you engaged with, encouraged, and assisted Misdwire in the robbery,
Speaker 5: contemplating that violence towards and physical harm to an eighty
Speaker 5: one year old man might very well result. Your offending
Speaker 5: was also very serious, although I accept the circumstances place
Speaker 5: it towards the lower end of objective seriousness for the
Speaker 5: crime of murder.
Speaker 2: Shelby Holmes was charged with aggravated serious criminal trespass and
Speaker 2: given a nine month suspended sentence. My Sister the Murderer
Speaker 2: was written in produced by me Jay Walkerdin from pod Shape.
Speaker 2: Extra editing and mixing was done by Jared Young at
Speaker 2: Chump Chump and Shad Wicker at pod Shape. Research was
Speaker 2: from Melissa Gibson. Logo design from Dan a Cyborg and
Speaker 2: I also want to say a personal thanks to Ryan
Speaker 2: and Tanya for trusting us with this really personal story.
Speaker 2: We have used AI in this podcast to recreate some
Speaker 2: of the parts of the court case. Thanks for listening.