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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Lucas Williams.

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Speaker 1: In part one, we learned about Lucas rough upbringing that

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Speaker 1: led to substance abuse, crime, and lengthy terms in prison. Sadly,

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Speaker 1: that's the path that's followed too many times by a

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Speaker 1: young young people, particularly young Indigenous men. In part two,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what Lucas is doing now

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Speaker 1: to break the cycle. Lucas, welcome back. Thanks Gay, Well,

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Speaker 1: we gave you all the heavy stuff in part one

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Speaker 1: and dissected your life, and thanks for being so open

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Speaker 1: and honest about what's happened. I want to just read

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Speaker 1: out a quote. I was doing the research for the

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Speaker 1: podcast and looking at things you had said and done

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Speaker 1: and been quoted on. I just read this quote out.

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Speaker 1: The work that I do aims to put an end

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Speaker 1: to racism in Australia and put symphasis on healing. If

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Speaker 1: we do not heal, then the past simply repeats itself

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Speaker 1: and the next generation is stuck in another cycle of trauma.

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Speaker 1: Breaking the cycle takes work, Healing takes time and effort,

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Speaker 1: and I want to be there to be a guide

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Speaker 1: and a mentor to those who need a helping hand.

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Speaker 1: After all, I was in the same boat twelve years ago,

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Speaker 1: so I understand the real lived experiences that people had suffered.

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Speaker 1: They're pretty lofty goals and that's a pretty tough, tough task.

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Speaker 1: Is this the type of thing that you're doing now?

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Speaker 1: What you want to achieve with the work that you're

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Speaker 1: doing now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, it definitely is the work I want to achieve,

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Speaker 2: and it is the work I'm doing now. I would

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Speaker 2: like to see a country where we have all cultures

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Speaker 2: come together, no matter the story and the history. But

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Speaker 2: to do that, we have to really sit in the

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Speaker 2: depth of some of the storytelling and their history so

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Speaker 2: healing can take place. I'm a big believer that healing

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Speaker 2: can't take place unless an individual has an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: tell the story. And for First Nations people in this

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Speaker 2: particular instance, with that quote, I think we need to

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Speaker 2: have a space whether the real deep stories come out.

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Speaker 2: And what I see is that people don't want to

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Speaker 2: hear those stories because they're quite deep and they're painful.

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Speaker 2: But if we can create a society that can actually

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Speaker 2: create safety to hear those stories, we're going to see

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Speaker 2: healing on great deep levels. And that's my mission is

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Speaker 2: to do those things for all people.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a very worthwhile mission, and that

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Speaker 1: I know it's not just words. You're actually doing stuff

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Speaker 1: to achieve what you're setting out to achieve. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about your release from prison. You had your six years,

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Speaker 1: you went out, you ended up back in eighteen months,

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Speaker 1: and you've come out talkers about who you were at

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Speaker 1: that particular point in time.

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Speaker 2: When I got out of jail, I was a person

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Speaker 2: that I didn't know where I was going. And again

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Speaker 2: I hit a bit of a spiral for a year

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Speaker 2: or two on the drugs in our cohol. And then

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Speaker 2: some not so good things happen around me. Some people

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Speaker 2: were murdered and different things like that, and I switched.

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Speaker 2: I changed, and at that moment I was taken in

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Speaker 2: by my mother.

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Speaker 1: And this was this was when sorry two thousand.

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Speaker 2: Two thousand, so December twenty eleven.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and knew were how old?

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Speaker 2: Roughly twenty eight? Okay, twenty eight so I was twenty

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Speaker 2: eight years old. I just spent basically from the age

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Speaker 2: of twelve through to twenty eight in chaos. And it

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Speaker 2: was not long after that. It was in January twenty

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Speaker 2: twelve that my mother said, I want to take you

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Speaker 2: into Battle on a tafe in New South Wales and

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Speaker 2: enroll you into a cert for in drug and alcohol. See,

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Speaker 2: my mother was one of the first aberiginal tri and

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Speaker 2: ladies in Australia to do a cert for that was

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Speaker 2: ever introduced to Australia back in the ninety sevens or whatever.

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Speaker 2: So she wanted me to follow that path. So she goes,

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Speaker 2: she takes me into Battle on a tape and I

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Speaker 2: signed into a cert for and so that was the

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Speaker 2: first introduction basically to education really, despite the ones that

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Speaker 2: I had been through in jail. It was the first

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Speaker 2: introduction into an academic world that I knew nothing about,

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Speaker 2: so much that I actually failed my first assessment because

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Speaker 2: I played arisen. I copied people's work. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: what was about.

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Speaker 1: It would have been intimidating, confusing. Yeah, source your quotes

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Speaker 1: and do this. What's this all about? It's a completely

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Speaker 1: foreign worll too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely it was. You know that the teachers I'm hearing,

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing teachers talk about things from an academic lens

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Speaker 2: that I had no idea about. You know, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: I couldn't write one hundred words, and so I was

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Speaker 2: very vulnerable because I had to. It was also it

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Speaker 2: was also a course where it was academic, but yet

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Speaker 2: it was telling your story also, and so this was,

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Speaker 2: you know, some of the first times that I ever

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Speaker 2: told stories. And I'm in a classroom of thirty And

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Speaker 2: I've always been quite truthful and open about my story

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Speaker 2: because I feel like that's the way to heal. But

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Speaker 2: here I am telling the stories that made people kind

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Speaker 2: of jewels at the ground because they didn't know how

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Speaker 2: to deal with it in the room. And that's kind

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Speaker 2: of what also made me think, you know, I want

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Speaker 2: to start to learn how we create safe places so

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Speaker 2: everybody in the room can actually hear stories, how they

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Speaker 2: can share their stories when they hear stories.

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Speaker 1: So these are people that had an experience the world

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Speaker 1: you've experience, and you're telling your story and that's almost

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Speaker 1: too confronting them. They're looking at you differently, and yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And these are people, and look, I

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Speaker 2: hold great respect for those people, but these are people

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Speaker 2: that's going into the industry to help people like me.

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Speaker 2: It's only that I had lived experience in the room,

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Speaker 2: and you know, many people didn't, not on the level

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Speaker 2: that I probably did. They probably had lived experience in

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Speaker 2: many other areas. And I remember going through the journey

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Speaker 2: when I tried to heal, you know, the mental health

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Speaker 2: services and the hospitals used to kind of send me

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Speaker 2: out the door because I didn't know how to help

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Speaker 2: me and I wanted to. And I want to make

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Speaker 2: a difference in that space. Is that we need people

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Speaker 2: that can actually hear the stories of deep trauma. And

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Speaker 2: if we don't have those people. We're going to have

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Speaker 2: a generation that repeats that trauma outputs to society.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you've enrolled, and how did that change. Was

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Speaker 1: there a turning point where you started to feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I can actually do this or I'm getting

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Speaker 1: where they're coming from.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was. It was a lady by the name

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Speaker 2: of Jenis. She was one of my teachers, and a

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Speaker 2: lady by the neigh of Sue, and they were my

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Speaker 2: two first teachers. But I got a ninety percent in

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Speaker 2: my first assessment. I failed the first one, but then

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Speaker 2: when I went back and done and I got ninety percent.

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Speaker 2: That was the first assessment I've ever passed them life,

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Speaker 2: you know, out of primary school, high school. So I

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Speaker 2: didn't believe it to start with because I didn't think

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Speaker 2: it was possible. But then I knew that I could

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Speaker 2: do something different and I went on and smashed that out. It.

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Speaker 2: It took me twelve months. I got all high kind

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Speaker 2: of marks for all my assessments, and one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest ones that I was the highest thing was actually

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Speaker 2: communication and I never knew that, you know, and I

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Speaker 2: thought I was I thought I was a shit communicator.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm sitting here and you're a very good communicator.

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Speaker 1: But that's funny, and you're like, your self esteem must

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Speaker 1: improve so much like doing that. Okay, so I'm not worthless,

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Speaker 1: so I've got something to say and do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And it was in that also

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Speaker 2: that moment that people in the room that stayed on

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Speaker 2: to do the course, as in other students, when I

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Speaker 2: started to tell my story, they were really inspired. You know,

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Speaker 2: by six months into the course, they used to really

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Speaker 2: love me, kind of checking in their mornings or you know,

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Speaker 2: whenever it might be because I bring something new or

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Speaker 2: a journey that I just moved through. And so and

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Speaker 2: I started to learn not only am I good at

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Speaker 2: some of the academic stuff, I'm also good at lived

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Speaker 2: experience and sharing stories to help people with inspiration. And

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Speaker 2: so I learned quite quick that I was once a

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Speaker 2: good drug dealer, I was once a good criminal, but

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Speaker 2: now I can be a really good person in this field.

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Speaker 2: And that's what really inspired me to transform the skills

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Speaker 2: into a different set of kind of work areas, which

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Speaker 2: was the trauma reform lens. And that's where I've used

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Speaker 2: the not so good experiences from the old life and

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Speaker 2: put it to practice in my healthy life.

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Speaker 1: Well something's worked. And in two thousand and later and

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Speaker 1: you rewarded the Northern Territories Government Aboriginal Services Remote Worker

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Speaker 1: of the Year.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about that, So I was life went on.

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Speaker 2: I went on to do diplomas, degrees, masters, now into PhD.

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Speaker 2: And in twenty eighteen I got.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, just break that down. So it's all a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, but you're saying the very first one that

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Speaker 1: you were enrolled in you were so far out of

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Speaker 1: your depth. What have you there?

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Speaker 2: So I went from my search for I went into

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Speaker 2: a double diploma a year later. That was again that

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Speaker 2: was more academic, so it was more writing, more research.

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Speaker 2: But again I loved it. It was it was like it

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Speaker 2: was like a it was like a fix, you know.

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Speaker 2: I was learning something deep for the body. So I

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Speaker 2: achieved that. It was it was. It was a journey,

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Speaker 2: but I achieved it. And then I went to after

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Speaker 2: I finished that, I had never thought in a million

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Speaker 2: years I would have a diploma. That was back in

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Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. And then I went to Woongoan University and

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Speaker 2: I'd done a degree in Indigenous Trauma and Recovery Practices

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Speaker 2: that was twenty sixteen, and then at that moment, I thought, Wow,

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Speaker 2: there's just no other nowhere else I could go here.

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Speaker 2: But then I went on to do a master's. I'd

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Speaker 2: had a master's in Indigenous health and I finished that

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Speaker 2: got high marks, and then I was considered an academic then.

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Speaker 2: And when I say that, I still feel a bit

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Speaker 2: with you know, I'm thinking academic. I'm an ex criminal.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not an academic, but I that's what

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Speaker 2: I've become. So I'm quite proud to share that, you know,

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Speaker 2: to share that I'm now an academic. And then I've

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Speaker 2: gone on now to enter into a PhD. So I'm

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Speaker 2: doing a PhD around healing using traditional healing circles and

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Speaker 2: how that improves the social emotional being for First Nations people. Okay,

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Speaker 2: but not only that, how we create a service where

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Speaker 2: the nation has a tool to use with our people.

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Speaker 2: So that's what it's all about.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll break that down and delve into that, but

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Speaker 1: I just want to ask a question that, Yeah, your

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Speaker 1: mum took you in in two thousand of December twenty eleventh,

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Speaker 1: and she still had some trust in you. How proud

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Speaker 1: was your mum and dad, when you've got to this

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Speaker 1: stage where you're graduating and the master's degrees.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, they I'm the first family member in my

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Speaker 2: family of you know, six hundred just from my grandmother's

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Speaker 2: line that went on to do a master's and into

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Speaker 2: a PhD. So no one's ever graduated in this space.

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Speaker 2: So they're pretty proud. They're pretty proud to have, you know,

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Speaker 2: a son that they never thought would come out of

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Speaker 2: the criminal world and now they feel like it's part

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Speaker 2: of their win, you know that they're proud to talk

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Speaker 2: about it. So wherever they go, you know, if my

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Speaker 2: name gets mentioned, they're like, yeah, that's my son.

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Speaker 1: Before they might have been shame.

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Speaker 2: They were shame. You know, I put them through a

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Speaker 2: lot of shame when I was a young fellow, and

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Speaker 2: I might didn't give a shit at the time, but

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Speaker 2: I was very selfish. Where now they can be proud.

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Speaker 1: Did you have family at the graduation?

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Speaker 2: I actually didn't go to my graduation because I was

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Speaker 2: actually in community doing work and at the time I

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Speaker 2: thought that was more important.

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Speaker 1: That says a lot about the person you have become.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was more important. It was I was

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Speaker 2: in community doing work around suicide which is which is

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Speaker 2: the which is linked to the two thousand and eight

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Speaker 2: and awards.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so describe us white city dwellers down here.

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Speaker 1: When you talk going into community in the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 1: what are we looking at? What the people realize?

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Speaker 2: So we're going into a community where firstly language for

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Speaker 2: local mob, well English is like maybe six language. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: sitting with old people that I call so I call

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Speaker 2: go into community Bush University. Some of the old people

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Speaker 2: that I've sat without on community are some of the

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Speaker 2: most smartest people I've ever sat with. And they come

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Speaker 2: across to me like a professor in UNI, you know.

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Speaker 2: So we're firstly, you know, we've got to move in

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Speaker 2: community in a way that's safe. But we're faced with

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Speaker 2: trauma beyond our imagination in my experience, And when we

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Speaker 2: go in and we start to actually sit, like I said,

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Speaker 2: if we create safe enough places, we're gonna hear some

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Speaker 2: of the stories. Example, ynd me, you know in the

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Speaker 2: Connstant massacres, when one went out to do the work

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Speaker 2: out there, we went out onto country, we went back

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Speaker 2: to the Connaistant massacres and we sat down for days

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Speaker 2: and told them stories. But these are the stories that

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Speaker 2: I guess the rest of Australia. I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: as in like the cities they may not know about.

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Speaker 2: And it's not until you go and sit down and

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Speaker 2: hear those stories that you get to grasp the depth

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Speaker 2: of trauma and why maybe you know that it might

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Speaker 2: be so hard to live in remote because of those

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Speaker 2: reasons and why there's needed. You know, there's more resources needed,

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Speaker 2: there's more understanding needed, there's more trauma and form skilled

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Speaker 2: workers needed. So yeah, it's it's it can be, it

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Speaker 2: can be. It can be a hard journey if someone

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Speaker 2: doesn't know how to navigator.

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Speaker 1: But paying a picture of sitting down and telling telling stories.

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Speaker 1: But describe that to us.

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Speaker 2: I might use yams as a as a story. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So at the time, and again I just want a

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Speaker 2: name that I got permission from the family to speak

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Speaker 2: about this story. So at the time that Coleman J.

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Speaker 2: Walker had been shot, I got a phone call about

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Speaker 2: two days later and said, look, would you come out

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Speaker 2: into Unimo because no one was allowed to come and

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Speaker 2: go at that time. Luckily enough, I was knowing in

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Speaker 2: other communities and so they gave me a call to

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Speaker 2: go out and sit with the community. So I went

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Speaker 2: out in the community and I took about ten or

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Speaker 2: fifteen men out onto country. And this is keeping in

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Speaker 2: mind just like a week or so just after the shooting,

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Speaker 2: and when we sat down on country, we went out

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Speaker 2: and the first thing we started to talk about was

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Speaker 2: obviously the shooting and the amount of pain that come

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Speaker 2: from that conversation was it went straight to the massacres

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Speaker 2: and the stories was so in depth. It was the

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Speaker 2: fear that the men now in the community feared that

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Speaker 2: they might be next in the firing line. And then

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Speaker 2: you really will it was real.

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Speaker 1: Can you just link the massacres that you talk about

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Speaker 1: what the history of that is? Sure so people understand

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Speaker 1: and how that history is carried through and.

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Speaker 2: Through to the And that's a good point, Gary, is

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Speaker 2: the Connist the massacres, you know, happened one hundred or

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Speaker 2: so years ago and it was around you know. I

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Speaker 2: won't share deeply about the story. It's not my story

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Speaker 2: to share, but I share the knowledge that I have,

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Speaker 2: and it was around you know. It was a bunch

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Speaker 2: of police officers that coming on horseback and shot a

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Speaker 2: lot of people out at Conniste. Massac massacre out at Conniston,

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Speaker 2: which is fifty k from Mu basically Mu really and

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Speaker 2: so they rode through and they shot you know, women,

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Speaker 2: children and men. And so now we come to two thousand,

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Speaker 2: you know, two thousand and eighty nine and at the time,

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Speaker 2: and we go out on country and we start to

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Speaker 2: talk about the shooting of common Jay, that shooting at

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Speaker 2: that time of common Jay. When we went out on country,

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Speaker 2: it was lingering. But the pain of Coniston massacre matched

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Speaker 2: and linked to that event because they were very similar.

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Speaker 2: Not only you know, did we think the shootings were

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Speaker 2: finished at that moment. What was named is that the

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Speaker 2: vuneage just also just begun again. And the fear within

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Speaker 2: the young men at that time, they were quite worried

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Speaker 2: to actually walk around the community because they weren't sure

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Speaker 2: if they were actually next. You know, there was a

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Speaker 2: deep fear there. And for the old men that held

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Speaker 2: the stories of Coniston, the fear was very real because

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Speaker 2: they've heard the stories directly from the family members that

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Speaker 2: were actually linked to Coniston. So it's not like it was,

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Speaker 2: you know, a million years old, this was very recently.

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Speaker 2: It was near so and you've got to hold those

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Speaker 2: stories with great care, and you've got to listen deeply

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Speaker 2: and it's real, you know, it's really real. And the

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Speaker 2: sit with some of the young men and the uncles

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Speaker 2: and hear those stories. I could, I could, I could

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Speaker 2: see the realness and the pain that sat inside them.

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Speaker 2: And then we had workshops where all the services would

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Speaker 2: come together, and I remember in those workshops we had

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Speaker 2: some unfortunately non indigenous workers. When you've got a room

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Speaker 2: full of fifteen Yindimou mob say why would you you know,

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Speaker 2: why would you think that people are going to be

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Speaker 2: shot in this community? And so like it was the

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Speaker 2: whole room would go silent, you know. And I remember

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Speaker 2: in that moment, like the community just looked around and

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Speaker 2: was like, well, actually, we've just had a young person

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Speaker 2: shot in this community and we're living on we're living

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Speaker 2: on grounds or on country where the colors of the

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Speaker 2: Massaic took place. So we had we had to map

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Speaker 2: through that to bring some understanding for some of the

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Speaker 2: service providers that well, individuals. I should say that pushed

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Speaker 2: back on some of that converse.

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Speaker 1: See it's interesting talking about it because I do understand

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Speaker 1: the world for a variety of reasons, but they also

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Speaker 1: understand very much on my white man and when I'm

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Speaker 1: working Indigenous communities that I'm trying to be sensitive, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes you come in there and it's quank. You've just

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Speaker 1: missed the point somewhere. And I know when I did

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Speaker 1: work in the Bearable community, elders that pulled me aside,

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Speaker 1: like grow that big time when I first came in.

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Speaker 1: You're a white man, you're a cop. Why would we

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Speaker 1: trust you? And that just h I had to learn,

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Speaker 1: and I was fortunate that some of the elders pulled

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Speaker 1: me aside and said, hey, just try it this way

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Speaker 1: and the difference it makes. But I think there's just

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Speaker 1: that misunderstanding. And you would agree. I'm sure that ignorance

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Speaker 1: causes problems. If people are ignorant to things, that's where

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Speaker 1: where things break down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Look, I think you're spot on. And I

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Speaker 2: also see it as a few different kind of scenarios,

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Speaker 2: Like you have people that made misunderstand and then be

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Speaker 2: some ignorance, but they're willing to learn. And then you

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Speaker 2: have people that come in that come with the same

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Speaker 2: kind of understanding misunderstanding, but yet there's this embedded racism

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Speaker 2: that comes. So there's two different lenses. And when that

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Speaker 2: other person comes in that has got that deep racis

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Speaker 2: and we feel it and we know actually this this

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Speaker 2: person is coming in with some deepness that doesn't fit

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Speaker 2: this kind of this scene, and so it's not long

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Speaker 2: before they've actually marched out a community compared to someone

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Speaker 2: that might be non indigenous and comes in may not

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Speaker 2: be fully accustomed to everything, or might not understand everything,

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Speaker 2: but they're willing to actually hear and listen and take

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Speaker 2: on different stuff. And those are the people that make

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Speaker 2: a big difference for First Nation's mob, you know, that

383
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Speaker 2: are willing to listen and hear and speak and you know,

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Speaker 2: and sit and listen to the elders and be directed

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Speaker 2: that way.

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Speaker 1: I think some people come in with an unconscious bias,

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Speaker 1: which is almost as ignorance, where they think they're saying

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Speaker 1: the same thing or saying the right thing, but they're

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Speaker 1: showing their biases and the way they think by the

390
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Speaker 1: comments that they're making. It is a delicate area. But

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in hearing it from a black fellow's side

392
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Speaker 1: and saying from a white fella. Sometimes it's scary. You

393
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Speaker 1: go in there and you think, okay, I want to

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Speaker 1: be appropriate. I'll reference one point because I think this

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Speaker 1: is interesting. I've probably talked about it before, but it

396
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Speaker 1: was significant with the Bearable community. When I first became friendly,

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Speaker 1: we've started working with them like family. Now I feel

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Speaker 1: part of the mob. They said, why doesn't the commissioner

399
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Speaker 1: come up and apologize? If three kids have been murdered,

400
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Speaker 1: they've been a failed investigation, all sorts of things that

401
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Speaker 1: had occurred because of it, Why can't the boss man

402
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Speaker 1: come over and say sorry? And mister SKIPPIONI was the

403
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Speaker 1: commissioner at the time. I remember going to his office

404
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Speaker 1: and he was getting advised by all the people around him,

405
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Speaker 1: and he was listening, and it could see him getting confused,

406
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Speaker 1: more and more confused, and it was becoming more and

407
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Speaker 1: more complicated. He basically said, Gary, what should I do

408
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Speaker 1: when I go there? If I go there? And I said,

409
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Speaker 1: go there and treat them like you treat your own familyircumstances.

410
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Speaker 1: And he ended up coming up and addressing the families

411
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Speaker 1: and saying that we're sorry, we got it wrong, we

412
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Speaker 1: could have done it better. And it was so powerful

413
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Speaker 1: to the community. They still haven't got justice and they're

414
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Speaker 1: still fighting for justice, but just someone to come up there.

415
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Speaker 1: And there were little things like he was going to

416
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Speaker 1: land the police helicopter near the area where the meeting

417
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Speaker 1: was and we pointed out to him it might be

418
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Speaker 1: a good look when the big boss man comes down

419
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Speaker 1: in the helicopter, so maybe driving. But I found that

420
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Speaker 1: good that something like that happened. But yeah, it's all

421
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Speaker 1: about this miscommunication and overcoming these and that's why I'm

422
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Speaker 1: really interested in the work that you're doing, that you're

423
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Speaker 1: trying to break down those barriers.

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Speaker 2: A nineteen year old man has been shot dead by

425
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Speaker 2: police in a remote Northern Territory community. Northern Territory police

426
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Speaker 2: officer Zachary Rolf has been acquitted of all.

427
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Speaker 1: Charges over the fatal shooting of Kuma Jal in twenty nineteen.

428
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Speaker 1: Going into the community two days after that shooting, it

429
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Speaker 1: was volatile. It was made national news. There was outrage

430
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Speaker 1: and there was a lot of things happening there. There

431
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Speaker 1: was a lot of pressure going in there. How does

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Speaker 1: it feel? What could you feel the tension in the community.

433
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Speaker 2: I could feel. I wouldn't say at tension, I'd feel this.

434
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Speaker 2: I'd say the sadness I didn't feel. I'd never feel

435
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Speaker 2: when I go into community, someone else might feel a tension,

436
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 2: but I definitely feel the depth of trauma in the

437
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 2: community rather than the tension. And that took me a

438
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 2: couple That took me a couple of days to actually

439
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 2: start to make sense of it. I knew that I'd

440
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 2: stepped into Yindhu and other places that I go, you know,

441
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 2: and it's always quite vibrant, and but this time I

442
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 2: could feel the sadness. I knew that there was a

443
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: lot of sorrow. Obviously we knew, you know, just spend

444
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 2: a shooting. But I had to actually go, how am

445
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 2: I going to move in this space? You know, I

446
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: don't want to make a mistake. Even though I am

447
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 2: a blackfellow, I can still make mistakes. So I had

448
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: to be respectful and I had to And the first

449
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: thing I could think about is I had to just

450
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 2: move and just listen deeply. I had to practice everything

451
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 2: that I've been preaching to every other service that I

452
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 2: work with. I was the one that had to do

453
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 2: this now, and that's what I did for the last

454
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: you know, up until today. Even I actually literally spoke

455
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 2: with common Jay's family two days ago to let them

456
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: know what was coming on here to speak with you,

457
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,360
Speaker 2: and they gave me their blessing to speak about different things.

458
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,239
Speaker 1: Okay, and that was out of respect. That was out

459
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: of respect understanding. But because it's those little things, showing

460
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: that respect makes it makes a big difference.

461
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right.

462
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, the relationship between police and you can talk

463
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: in a general sense, or you can talk that community

464
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: between police and indigenous community. So how would you describe

465
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 1: describe you talking in general or you talk let's talk

466
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,919
Speaker 1: the community first up and then in general.

467
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: Look, right now, I'm not sure, and again I wouldn't

468
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: want to cross boundaries and trying to portray what I think.

469
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: But I know at the time, you know, that was

470
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 2: at the time that the shooting took place, and then

471
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: at the time that the trial was on, I was

472
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: contracted to go and sit with the community for that

473
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: six weeks to sit with community do healing stuff. And

474
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: at that time I remember that the community had said

475
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: to the police, if you want to come and speak

476
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 2: to us, you put your guns up. And at that time,

477
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: the police put their guns up and they left them

478
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: in the station and they would come down and then

479
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 2: they would have a meeting with community and they would whatever,

480
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: you know, there'd be conversations. Put it that way. And

481
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: then so at that time, there was a respect happening,

482
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 2: but again there was still I know, even me as

483
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: an outsider, there wasn't a trust there.

484
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: You know.

485
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not just not sure about what's

486
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 2: happening here. Community has been hurt so much through this

487
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: experience that how do you trust or how are you

488
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: sure with some of the stuff that's happened in Australia

489
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: From a government government perspective, how can you be sure

490
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:53,959
Speaker 2: that what the people that are showing up here are

491
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: coming with true intent? That was my perspective. That doesn't

492
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: mean that was the perspective of community, but I think

493
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 2: that I think that we all had that kind of feeling.

494
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: But again, there was there was a respect where the

495
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: police would turn up and have conversations. And again it's

496
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 2: not my thing to talk about that. I don't want

497
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: to disrespect community and pretend like I know what was

498
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: going on there. That's that's probably more for community to

499
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 2: speak about. But yeah, look, I do know that at

500
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 2: the time, some of the elders would say that, you know,

501
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 2: there was some old police officers that come back to

502
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: work in the community and they respected them. They said

503
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 2: that that person's okay, you know, we're okay to have

504
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 2: her here. I remember that there's a particularity.

505
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's interesting you talk about the community want

506
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: certain police back. I know, the bearable mob one of

507
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: the Lulu She made a comment to me once because

508
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: they rotate police through the stations and the invariably it's

509
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 1: a two year tenure or three year tenure, and she goes,

510
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: they send us here, these new guys, and it takes

511
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: us two years to train them, and then they get

512
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: rotated out. And I think, yeah, there's some really value

513
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: if you line up police that match the community the

514
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: community like, and if they can stay there forever. I

515
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: don't think it. Don't think it's a bad thing for sure.

516
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: I just think if people it takes a while for

517
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: everyone to learn their place and learn how to communicate,

518
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: and so I can see some benefits there. I had

519
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: Jaron a badge at one of our early guests on

520
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: the podcast, and we've become good friends. She was in

521
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: the police. She grew up in Redfern, in the block

522
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: during the volatile times, and she joined the police because

523
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: she wanted to make a difference, because she saw how

524
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: her family were treated by police growing up in the block.

525
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: She made the comment and that how beneficial it would

526
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: be if the police that are working in country towns,

527
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: where you get some city cops coming up into a

528
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: country town, if it's a high Indigenous population, let them

529
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: go out on country for a week with the elders

530
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: and just get a feel of what this is all about.

531
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: And it wouldn't be a big impost on the police.

532
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: Just say, okay, your first week there are you going

533
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: out on country?

534
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah?

535
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: For a week? What do you think of an idea

536
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 1: like that?

537
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 2: Look, I think when you tell that that way, what

538
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: I call and what MOB about Central way and top

539
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 2: end waste would say is that it's been done right way.

540
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: It's been done in a way that's done in First

541
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: Nations way, in MOB way, and anyone that goes out

542
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 2: into communities this so often. When I brung together the

543
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: fifty seven communities and UNIMUB at that time back in

544
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, I think it was we had a room

545
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 2: of about fifty people, all service providers, and those service

546
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: providers there was half of those that didn't know each

547
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: other and they're working in a community for the last

548
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: eighteen months together, but yet they didn't know each other,

549
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: and they didn't know some of the key elders. And

550
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 2: so one of the things that I quite often talk

551
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: about when we go into communities and remote communities is

552
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 2: actually everybody that comes in the community need to do

553
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: a cultural awareness introduction community way, and that means going

554
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: out on country and learning some of the sacred spaces

555
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 2: and spots of that community. The sacred story is the

556
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: history of the community, because there's much more likely to

557
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: be an understanding of what's took place on them lands.

558
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 2: But too often you know that doesn't happen. But if

559
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: it was to happen, there'd be a difference.

560
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 1: I think I think there'd be And I can look

561
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: at it from a police officer's point of view that

562
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: it took me a long time to understand the Bearable

563
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: community because they showed me the time, they had the

564
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: patience with me. But doing something like that, I think

565
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: it would potentially break down barriers. I want to see

566
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: the communication between different different groups. So with that community,

567
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: we've gone a long way from talking about your award.

568
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: Let's bring your award back. That's the type of work

569
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: that you were doing when you got the award in

570
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight.

571
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: Well, that was one of them that this award here

572
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: in twenty eight een was for another community. I've got

573
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: a phone call there had been a couple of silicides

574
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 2: and that asks if I'd come and work with the

575
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: men in the community. This is one in a community

576
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: in central Australia, and it earned up staying there for

577
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: two years and we built one of the strongest men's

578
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 2: groups in the territory and you know, sixty seventy men

579
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: would come along every fortnight. The first time I ever

580
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: run it, there was one person that come and it

581
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: was a non Indigenous teacher and I thought to myself,

582
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you know, I ain't going to be

583
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: able to pull this off. But two years later it

584
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: was one of the most powerful groups in the territory.

585
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: And we really got to talk about the impacts of

586
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: those suicides on the community because we've seen a lot

587
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: of copycat and happened happening after those two sulicides. You

588
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: had family members trying to take their lives, and you know,

589
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: there was times where I was showing up each weekly

590
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: around one or two potential silicide attempts, and so it

591
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: was pretty scary. For the first twelve months after those

592
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: two sulicides. And so, and that's where the awards come from,

593
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 2: you know, from that community and that work. It was

594
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: recognized and I won those two awards.

595
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the high rate of suicide in the communities

596
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: is yeah, it's a well, I say shameful, it's just sad.

597
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: It's yeah, And I think it's very sad. It's very sad,

598
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: and it's due to you know, when you're kind of

599
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: mentioned there before, how do you how would you explain

600
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: on what happens when you go to community and it's

601
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: not until you go to community do you sit and

602
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: you hear some of the experiences of trauma. And that

603
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: I would kind of describe is that these are the

604
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: reasons that some of these suicides are taking places because

605
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: of some of that historical trauma, some of the intergenerational

606
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: trauma that has never been addressed. And yet when I

607
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: come from the city perspective or I see social media,

608
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: it's always about you know, you know, blackfellows this or

609
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: Aboriginal people this. But there's actually a story behind some

610
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: of that stuff. You know, let's listen to that and

611
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: we're going to make a difference. And so that's what

612
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: I see playing out is suicides and not so good

613
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: behaviors due to the impact of trauma.

614
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: And you mentioned the copycat suicides when there's one in

615
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: the community, invariably, yeah, it creates others doing the going

616
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: down the same path.

617
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: It definitely does. And I talk about this this term

618
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: that's called unfinished business, and what that means is if

619
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: you're a young person and you've maybe had the thought

620
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: of suicide in your life, you know, you might forget

621
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: about it from eleven through to twenty one, and then

622
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: at twenty one you'll see somebody try to do suicide

623
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: or they might actually succeed in side, and then you'll

624
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: you know, those young people that has that that had

625
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: that pain inside, that unfinished business will be will be triggered,

626
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, that's where the copycat

627
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: will start to take place. And I see, I see

628
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: that quite often, you know, in communities, and it's really sad.

629
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: I think you named it very well, you know, spot on,

630
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: it's sad. The men's group, YE talk us through what

631
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: you can tell us of. You get a men's men's group.

632
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: So you said you've met once a fortnight. What happens

633
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: there so people understand. So look, firstly, what we do

634
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: is we establish we establish a safe place. And more

635
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: times than not, you know, when I go to a community,

636
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: a lot of the service providers that fund me to

637
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: come into the community, they might identify to have a

638
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: men's men's group in the community. And one of the

639
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: first things that we identified together as men is we

640
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: go where is your safe place here? Like, where would

641
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: you feel safe to meet and start to talk about

642
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: these stories. And because one of my one of my

643
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: things is I think that you know, there's this terminology

644
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: is that men don't talk about emotions. I like to

645
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: flip that on the head and I think, you know,

646
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: it's not that, it's just there's not enough safe places.

647
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: And so these men identify that usually there's safe places

648
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: on country, usually on men's ceremony grounds, and so that's

649
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: where we go back. We go back to that place

650
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: that's safe, and more times than not one hundred percent

651
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: of the time, when we do this, we then start

652
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: to identify some traditional ways of being sitting in circle

653
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: and what's the elements to create in safety for men

654
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: to actually talk about those stories. And that's where it begins.

655
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: It begins by finding a safe place on country that

656
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: the men know in the body is safe because I

657
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: know no one can go there and that's a safe

658
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: place for them.

659
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: Okay, And that creates it, and that creates it your

660
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: business or that you've set up, what's the situation there.

661
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: So I obviously developed a So I've got a business.

662
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: It's Lucas Williams leadership inside out and connect to that

663
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: is also a business of mind, which is called garner healing.

664
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: When it's a model, Garner healing means deep listening and

665
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 2: it's become best practice in Australia. It services some of

666
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: the some of the Australia's largest mental health services and

667
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: government bodies and so on, and so it's a trauma

668
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: informed experiential program that can train up workforces from CEO

669
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,479
Speaker 2: down to your cleaner. And also that's one component. But

670
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: then there's also leadership stuff in there. There's cultural awareness

671
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: stuff in there. There's also just me working with CEOs

672
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: in for example, there's a CEO at the moment in

673
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: Australia and I'm working with that CEO on how to

674
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: actually move within remote communities and it's going beautifully.

675
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: So this is the cultural awareness and competency that needs

676
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: to You can I'll say a mining company. I mean,

677
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: it's a mining company going into a community. What are

678
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: the type of things to approach the community.

679
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, But the difference with what I do is, so

680
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: you've got your cultural awareness training where I actually come

681
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: and I actually work with CEOs and different people more

682
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: one on one rather because anyone can go through a training,

683
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: but it's about being competent in the way that we

684
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: move forward. And so I kind of work with people

685
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 2: and all right, how do we do this? And then

686
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: they'll bring me back stories that they're uncomfortable about or

687
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: they didn't work out, or they didn't this, or they

688
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: didn't that, and we story map that on how to

689
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: actually do things a little bit different. So that's the

690
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: cultural competency stuff, motivational speaking around my story. But the

691
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: biggest component of what I do is the trauma and

692
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: form work in remote communities for men, women and communities.

693
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: And the element to it is deep listening. You know,

694
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: if we can listen deeply a little bit like that

695
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: Yindermuse story I shared with you. When I went into

696
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: that community, I didn't know what to do, but one

697
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: of the things that I fell upon was going back

698
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: to my own model was deep listening and just being

699
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: in the space and listening to the stories and then

700
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: when I enter that, I usually find the solution that

701
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: I need to that I need to go upon. And

702
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: so that's kind of the journey that we take people on,

703
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: you know. It's an experiential journey.

704
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And there'd be a lot of demand for it.

705
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: I would imagine there is.

706
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: I'm booked out way in events and there is a

707
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: lot of demand, and I wish there was more like it.

708
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Hi guys, just a quick interruption to

709
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: let you know about a new podcast from the team

710
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: behind Eye Catch Killers. It's called The Mushroom Cook. It's

711
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: about a case that made headlines around the world last year,

712
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: the prosecution of a Victorian woman called Aaron Patterson over

713
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: a family lunch that left three people dead. The podcast

714
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: goes deep into what we know about those alleged murders

715
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: in the coming months. It will also follow the twists

716
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: and turns as erin who's denied any wrongdoing faces trial.

717
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: If you subscribe to crimex Plus, you'll get access to

718
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 1: The Mushroom Cook early and ad free. Just search for

719
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: The Mushroom Cook on crimex Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm

720
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: going to ask you a question. It's because I'm genuinely

721
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: curious the referendum from last year, the result the no

722
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: vote went out. I'm not ashamed to say I was

723
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: against that I was yes, and I'm not ashamed to

724
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: say that I was yes all the way. So I

725
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: was particularly disappointed when the no vote came through. But

726
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: there was a lot of talk and there was a

727
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: lot of confusion, like across the country, and you'd be thinking,

728
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, like in this are definitely it was going

729
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: to be the yes vote that we went for. So

730
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: when the no vote came out, I was disappointed. How

731
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 1: did it feel in the communities? What was it because

732
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: there seemed to be some division between there's people are

733
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: respected that were saying no, and there's people are respected

734
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: that were saying yes. And I'm talking Indigenous people. Divide

735
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: the Indigenous community and what's your views on the whole thing.

736
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: I had the same experience, like obviously I was a yes.

737
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: I had sisters of mine, very close people that I

738
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: was connected to that voted no. And what I did

739
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: is I tried to stay out of the argument of

740
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: it or that was very hurtful. And then I was

741
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: traveling community at the time, and I remember every single

742
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: elder or person I come up against was not up

743
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: against that I actually connected with. They expressed the deep

744
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: kind of pain of the no And one of the

745
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: most probably pivotal things that i'd heard was that an

746
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,959
Speaker 2: old man said to me, you know, I think we've

747
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: just confirmed that Australia has identified and confirmed that we're

748
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 2: living a racist country. And I was like wow, and

749
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: I said, oh, tell me why, uncle, and he goes, well,

750
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: you know, a majority of our people actually wanted the

751
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: yes vote, and the way that he expresses it and

752
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: the way that I seen it, I think that was

753
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: the case. And we've actually, unfortunately been there's been a

754
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 2: decision made for us, but not from our own people.

755
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: It's been from the rest the majority of Australia. And

756
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 2: that's the same. You know, it's not the same. That's sad,

757
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: because I would never want to make a decision for

758
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: another culture that's not the same as my culture. I

759
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: would want them to make the own decision what's right

760
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: for them, and want to support that. And so that's

761
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 2: how I see it, you know, I think, you know,

762
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 2: if there's a culture that's hurting, no matter what culture

763
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: they come from, no matter what background they have, and

764
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: they're saying that something needs to change for them. Let's

765
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: love them and support that, and let's just support that

766
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: journey for them. And so I find it really hard

767
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 2: to understand. I just I find it baffling to understand why,

768
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: you know, why, why it was?

769
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: It was a sad, sad day, I thought. And what

770
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: worried me after it? This is just from my own

771
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: personal experience. I was doing a talk to a large,

772
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: large crowd and an acknowledgment from country, and people started

773
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: doing and hissing, and you're thinking this wouldn't have happened

774
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: three four weeks ago. But it was almost like, no,

775
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: we're definitely for the no boat. It was almost making

776
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: a statement that wasn't everyone. That was just a small group.

777
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: But I'm thinking that wouldn't occur. And I just hope it, Yeah,

778
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: I hope it doesn't make things worse. But I thought

779
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: it was a sad day.

780
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Look, and I actually done a keynote speech

781
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: a couple of days after the no vote, and and

782
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: I was emotional. I'd delivered in a way that was

783
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: really good, but you know, I felt the pain of it.

784
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: It was really painful. And so I had to be

785
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 2: off social media. I had to not be involved in

786
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: you know, because I was getting I noticed I was

787
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: being asked questions about the yes or no vote, not

788
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 2: purely to hear what I thought, more so so they

789
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: could hear so they could respond to me. And I

790
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: find that's pretty that's not good behavior. You know that game.

791
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 2: Why would you want to do that to somebody yourself? Yeah,

792
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: so so, yeah, it's it's a shame. But but I

793
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 2: guess something that I will take from this, and something

794
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: I've also said in my keynotes is that yes, it's

795
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: a no, but I'm going to do everything in my

796
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: power to continue to bring healing. So so that's that's

797
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: still my mission, even though that's been an experience that's hurtful,

798
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 2: same as the sixty seven but you know, well actually

799
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: not the same as the sixty seven. My grandmother was

800
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: part of the sixty seven referendum. So it's that pain's

801
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: in there, but I need to dis continue to do

802
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 2: the healing.

803
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you ever, in your wildless dreams think you'd

804
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: be where you are now? When you were angry young man,

805
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: even after they gave you six years, you decided to

806
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: come out and settle some scores you had to go

807
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: back in. Did you ever envision that you would turn

808
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: your life around like this?

809
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: No, Look, my my vision was there's a couple of movies.

810
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: There's one The Postcard Bandit and the other is Blow

811
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: and Has. So my vision as a young Fellows, I

812
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: wanted to become an arm ROBBERI like postcard branded.

813
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to it or something.

814
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've done time with Abbot here ago. And

815
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 2: I also wanted to have the money that Johnny Depp

816
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 2: had in that movie. So that was my I was like,

817
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: I wanted to achieve that, and that's where I've become.

818
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: You know, I speak look and blah blah blah, but

819
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: I would never imagine that I would actually be on

820
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: the other side of the other side of the fence,

821
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: helping people and looking back at that life and just

822
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: thinking to myself, you know, even the language within the

823
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: jail systems, I don't use that anymore in my life today.

824
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: I don't want it to consist in my life that

825
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 2: my kids here, because I just see it as a

826
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: load of shit. And so I wouldn't ever see myself

827
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 2: back in that world. And I always encourage the men

828
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 2: that I sit with today is you know, to transform

829
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 2: the brain, he must transform everything. And that means our

830
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 2: language the way we talk about jail, because that doesn't

831
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 2: that's not part of who I am anymore. My story

832
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: is a different story. And I want the people in

833
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: my life, to my kids to grow up with that.

834
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to grow up with the language of jail.

835
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: Well, listening to listening to your talk, yeah, I can

836
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: see why you're doing a lot of keynotes. That's someone

837
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: that and they were right way back in the early

838
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: days when they said you've got good communication skills. Yeah. Yeah,

839
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: So you've definitely moved from that life. But there's so

840
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: much to be learned from your lived experiences and it

841
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: carries weight and what you're doing, and it's made you

842
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 1: the person you are today.

843
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: And it does And look, I remember this one police officer.

844
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: I haven't heard of his name for a long time.

845
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: His name was Aaron O'Sullivan and he was in He

846
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: was a police officer, detective in New South Wales, and

847
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: I remember he was one of the police officers that

848
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: used to say to me, look, you're going to make

849
00:40:58,400 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: it somewhere in life one day. This is a three

850
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 2: and your old boy. And it was one of them

851
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: cops that used to say, you know what made I've

852
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: got youa you can lie you one, but I've got you.

853
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: And I used to just go, yeah, you got me. Yeah,

854
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: And I always remember him saying that to me, and

855
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: I always believed it, always like, yeah, I'm going to

856
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: do something different in my life, and here I am today.

857
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: Well, it just shows how important when you're in those

858
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: low points that you were in your life, if one

859
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: person shows you some respect or it gives you some encouragement,

860
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: the difference that can make.

861
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: It's major. Yeah, yeah, it's major. Yeah.

862
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: Well, I think this is about time that we wrap

863
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: it up. I just want to say it's an absolute

864
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 1: pleasure sitting down and having a chat with you, and yeah,

865
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: if you ever reflect and laying there reflecting your balancing

866
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 1: the ledger get back to what with the introduction that

867
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: you wanted to make a difference, you wanted to heal,

868
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: and you wanted to heal others, and you're actually doing

869
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: all those things.

870
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Well I hope I hope to like I

871
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: hope to think I am doing those things. I want

872
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: to do everything in my power to make sure that

873
00:41:58,880 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 2: I do those things for people.

874
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're working in a tough area, a difficult area,

875
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: in an emotional area, sad, it's got all the emotions

876
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: there and you're hanging in and you are making a difference.

877
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: So congratulations and thanks for coming on. I catch killers.

878
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Gerry, thanks for having me.

879
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: Cheers.

880
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 2: Thanks.

881
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: Well, we've done a lot of stories of redemption and

882
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 1: he's right up there. His life was at a pretty

883
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: low place when he was in prison, but look at

884
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: the work he's doing now. I'm very familiar with the

885
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: type of work Lucas is doing in remote communities, and

886
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: it's a tough gig and I think quite inspiring. Not

887
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: only has he healed himself, he's now trying to heal others.

888
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: And it's important to bridge that gap between indigenous communities

889
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: and the white communities and bring everyone together. And people

890
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: like the work that Lucas is doing, or people like

891
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: Lucas and doing the work he's doing, is doing just that.