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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law.

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Speaker 2: The interviews are raw.

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Speaker 1: And honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. I think

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Speaker 1: it's fairly obvious homicide investigation is where my true passion lies.

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Speaker 1: So I'm really looking forward to today's episode because we're

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Speaker 1: going to have a deep dive into the world of

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Speaker 1: homicide investigation. So if you want to find out what

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Speaker 1: really happens when someone gets murdered, I think you're going to.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy today's guest.

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Speaker 1: Today, I'm talking to recently retired Detective Inspector Steve Ko,

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Speaker 1: who had a decorated thirty year career in London's Metropolitan Police,

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Speaker 1: including time in New Scotland Yard's elite anti terrorism branch. However,

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Speaker 1: for the last twelve years of his career they were

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Speaker 1: spent in Scotland Yards Murder Investigation Team. He has extensive

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Speaker 1: knowledge of what it takes to catch killers and how

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Speaker 1: to bring him to justice, and that's exactly what he

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Speaker 1: and I are going to be talking about today. Steve Kay,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers, Gary.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me on. A real

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Speaker 3: pleasure to be invited on.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: I always enjoy talking to x or current homicide detectives.

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Speaker 1: I read your book Murder Investigation Team and How Killers

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Speaker 1: Are Really Caught, and what jumped out at me reading

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Speaker 1: the book was the similarities between the work that you

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Speaker 1: guys do over there in the UK and what we

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Speaker 1: do in New South Wales. Very similar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I suppose procedurally things might change, but

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Speaker 3: catching a killer is catching a killer, isn't it. You're

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Speaker 3: looking for the same type of evidence, you're looking for

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Speaker 3: the same time of motives. The what's inside the killer's

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Speaker 3: brain doesn't change if they're in America or Australia. So

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Speaker 3: what's going to change is a nuances around procedure, but

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Speaker 3: actually going after someone who's murdered somebody and catching them

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Speaker 3: it's going to be similar across all sorts of territories.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most definitely. It certainly certainly comes across in the book.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that comes across in the book and

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Speaker 1: having the conversations I've had with you, is that I

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Speaker 1: think you it's fear to say being a police officer,

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Speaker 1: you share the passion I share for homicide investigation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. So I came into it quite late.

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Speaker 3: I mean you started a lot earlier, mean in your career.

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Speaker 3: I was about eighteen years in when I first started it,

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Speaker 3: and I think for me it was that first time

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Speaker 3: we were at court and you're noticed, like you could.

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Speaker 3: Solving murders isn't easy, getting through all the see the

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Speaker 3: the through the lawyers first off, to get a charge

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Speaker 3: isn't easy. Then you're having to prepare for court. Then

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Speaker 3: you get to court and the defense, I mean they

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Speaker 3: try every trick under the sun right now to try

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Speaker 3: and get their client off. So it's a horrible journey

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Speaker 3: for you, it's an even worse journey for the family.

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Speaker 3: But when you're that first time, when I was at

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Speaker 3: court and that jury came back with that guilty verdict,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I honestly, I know you've been there, and

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Speaker 3: you know what this feels like. It was it was

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Speaker 3: a feeling I'd never had in the police before, and

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Speaker 3: I thought, I can't that moment, I thought, I can't

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Speaker 3: do anything else that that feeling of getting that justice

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Speaker 3: for that victim, forgetting that, And you go outside and

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Speaker 3: the family give you a cuddle and they're like, more

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Speaker 3: often than not they say something on the lines of

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Speaker 3: thank you so much. We feel like we can start

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Speaker 3: to move on now, because they're stuck in a limbo

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Speaker 3: whilst all this stuff is going on. Because losing someone

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Speaker 3: that your love is bad enough for anybody losing it,

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Speaker 3: losing someone through a there is even worse. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's unimaginable. And just to feel that you can give

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Speaker 3: them that, I call it a gift, that gift of

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Speaker 3: being able to move on and once you once you're

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Speaker 3: done now, I thought, mate, I can't. There's nothing else

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Speaker 3: I could do in the police it's going to replicate that.

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Speaker 3: So I stay for the rest of my career.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a nice, nice way of putting it.

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Speaker 1: Helping those people, and it has to be the worst situation,

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Speaker 1: absolute worse situation, when someone's been taken away like that,

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Speaker 1: murdered and quite often senseless murder, and you're trying to

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Speaker 1: find some peace. I don't think the families ever get

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Speaker 1: closure when someone's been murdered, but it helps in a

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Speaker 1: way that you can get justice for the families. And

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Speaker 1: once I found homicide in my career, I found it

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Speaker 1: very difficult to find the passion in other areas of policing.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not putting homicide detecteves better than other detectives

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Speaker 1: or the general duties police, the uniform police, but from

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Speaker 1: my point of view, it was a pinnacle of what

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do. That was what I wanted to do,

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Speaker 1: and I spent as long as I could could doing

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Speaker 1: that because of the rewards that came, the personal rewards.

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Speaker 1: But you felt like you were doing something worthwhile.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the point you just made are completely one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent agree with you. I never use the word

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Speaker 3: closure because that that you often hear people say that

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Speaker 3: they can have closure. There is no closure when you've

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Speaker 3: lost someone through murder. But it's that being able to

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Speaker 3: allow them to start to grieve like we would normally grieve.

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Speaker 3: But you can't really agrieve when you know you've got

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Speaker 3: this court case hanging over you. And yeah again, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying murder detectives are better than anybody else,

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Speaker 3: but for once you're doing it, job satisfaction is huge,

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Speaker 3: isn't it, Especially when you're doing a job where you're

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Speaker 3: you're committed to it so much that you sacrifice your

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Speaker 3: personal life. You sacrifice time, your family use, the long

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Speaker 3: hours and lack of sleep, losing your hair, well we

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Speaker 3: both had here before we started, Yeah exactly, yeah, folowing locks.

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Speaker 3: But you do that because of that feeling that you

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Speaker 3: get and you go for all that, all that crack.

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Speaker 3: But by the end of it, when you sat there

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Speaker 3: in court and you get that girl, we've verdict everything,

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Speaker 3: everything is worthwhile. The sacrifices you've made and your family

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Speaker 3: essentially have made. You've done it because because of it

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Speaker 3: always haunds up a bit of a bit of a cliche.

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Speaker 3: But I feel like I've found my call it. When

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Speaker 3: I started investigating murders, it was like I've found what

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Speaker 3: I should be doing in my life. And as I say,

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Speaker 3: and since I can't let it go, everything I do

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Speaker 3: without talking about murder because it just becomes part of you,

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Speaker 3: isn't it. You are a murder detective.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying. I don't think

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Speaker 1: we're on our own. You speak to other the true

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Speaker 1: homicide detectives that the passionate ones, and we all feel

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Speaker 1: the same. It was important worker and rewarding work. And

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Speaker 1: people would often say, was it worth the sacrifices that

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Speaker 1: you made in your personal life and your own well

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Speaker 1: been I supposed to a degree. But the satisfaction you

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Speaker 1: get and the reward you get back from the families,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure you're the same as I am. I say,

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Speaker 1: in touch with some of the families that I I

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Speaker 1: work cases for, and they like family to me. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's just the nature of the beast. When you work

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Speaker 1: a homicide investigation, you've got to put yourself in there

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent. That's not a nine to five job,

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Speaker 1: is it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah? And it states so true when we were chatting

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Speaker 3: before and you said you were doing it for twenty

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Speaker 3: odd years. I've got so much respect for that garer

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Speaker 3: because I did it for the last twelve years of

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Speaker 3: my career and it's changed now. But when I joined you,

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Speaker 3: you signed up for thirty years. At the end of

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Speaker 3: that you walk away your pension. It's changed slightly now,

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Speaker 3: And so I was psychologically prepared that I knew I'd

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Speaker 3: be doing it for a maximum of twelve years and

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Speaker 3: I could give my all one hundred percent. And I

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Speaker 3: always said if I couldn't do that, I wouldn't would

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Speaker 3: go and do something else because I think, I think

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Speaker 3: for those families and that big team, you have to

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Speaker 3: be able to give one hundred percent. But I would say,

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Speaker 3: by the end of my end of my career, I

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Speaker 3: think I was spent. I think I'd given so much

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Speaker 3: of myself and so much energy and so many sacrifices. Personally,

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Speaker 3: If they sit to me, you got to do another

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Speaker 3: three I think it may have broken Huck actually, and

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Speaker 3: it wouldn't be It wouldn't be fair for anybody. It

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be fair for the victims, it wouldn't be fair

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Speaker 3: for anyway. If I can't give on hundred percent, then

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Speaker 3: I shouldn't be investigating murder. Sometimes not everybody who investigates

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Speaker 3: murders has the same attitude, and that was what some

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Speaker 3: of the biggest frustrations I've ever come across, where I

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Speaker 3: was working with people that didn't have that commitment and

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Speaker 3: couldn't see that bigger picture of what you're doing it for,

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Speaker 3: and that used to really wind me up. And I

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Speaker 3: didn't want to be that person. I wanted to be

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Speaker 3: the one that gave it all, and if I couldn't,

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Speaker 3: then I had to find something else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you bought up some interesting points there, and I

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Speaker 1: know what you say. There were some points in time

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Speaker 1: in my career, especially doing the homicide, where I thought

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do this anymore. I

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Speaker 1: just yeah, it was hard. I took twelve months leave

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Speaker 1: away from the police, which was was good. That sort

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Speaker 1: of very invigorated me, and I think that extended my

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Speaker 1: stay in the police. But I got to the point

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Speaker 1: where you became so accustomed to it where it didn't

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Speaker 1: challenge me or excite me. I thought that was the

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Speaker 1: time to leave. But as my career played out, I

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Speaker 1: ended up with investigations were a little bit different to

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Speaker 1: the ones I'd done before, and it sparked my interests

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Speaker 1: and I could find the passion, But I wholeheartedly agree

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Speaker 1: with you that if you haven't got that passion for

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Speaker 1: the work, you shouldn't be in homicide. And my saying was,

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Speaker 1: we're not conscripts here. You don't have to be in homicide.

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Speaker 1: It's not for everyone. And I fully respect and understand

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Speaker 1: people that don't want to invest so much of themselves

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Speaker 1: into a job if homicide is not their path.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, hundred percent. There's lots you can do in

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Speaker 3: the police, lots lots of different roles. And I'll say

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Speaker 3: one of the things as well, we've murdered quite often

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Speaker 3: you find yourself in a situation where it almost feels

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Speaker 3: like you're the only one there for a victim. A

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Speaker 3: lot of when you watch crime dramas and true crime

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Speaker 3: will cost a lot of things. People make get this

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Speaker 3: warped idea of what your average MURDERY know, there's not

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Speaker 3: there's no average murder, but more often than not, it's

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Speaker 3: it's crime related in some way, there's some way that

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Speaker 3: the victim's victim's lifestyle has lent itself to the reason

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Speaker 3: why they've been killed, and very often they're in their

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Speaker 3: circle around them. It felt I'm sure it wasn't but

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Speaker 3: it felt like they didn't care as much as we did.

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Speaker 3: And quite often you felt like you were the voice

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Speaker 3: for that victim, like they're not here anymore. You might

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Speaker 3: have I've had family members that were with them when

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Speaker 3: they're murdered and don't help us. Best friends apparently don't

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Speaker 3: help us. And you feel like you're the only one

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Speaker 3: fighting for that victim. And yeah, it felt like a

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Speaker 3: weird situation, but it was like I always found, I

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Speaker 3: don't want to overplay what's it feels like you're some

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Speaker 3: kind of mission for that victim, and it sometimes it

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Speaker 3: literally feels like you're the only one that's fighting for

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Speaker 3: them that, regardless of how they lived their life, that

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Speaker 3: they didn't deserve to die, and that's what you're doing

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Speaker 3: it for.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there was something in your book, Steve,

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Speaker 1: where you went to a funeral and there was only

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Speaker 1: four people there and that was you and your partner

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Speaker 1: and I've earned your funeral where there was seven of

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Speaker 1: us and three of us were police officers working the case,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, someone's got to look out for these people.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in that situation that because said to me,

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Speaker 3: you're not saying words. I was like, well, I mean

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Speaker 3: I literally, I literally never met a person in a life.

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Speaker 3: I felt like a new room. Because when there's there's

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Speaker 3: a saying investigation, to understand our person diet, you have

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Speaker 3: to understand how they lived. So it's about building up

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Speaker 3: a picture of someone's life in order because generally there's

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Speaker 3: some someone or something in their life that would be

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Speaker 3: the reason why they were murdered. So you do although

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Speaker 3: you never meet these people, you don't, you delve so

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Speaker 3: far into their lives. It was almost like you do

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Speaker 3: know that they almost become like this sort of pseudo

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Speaker 3: friend because because you know so much of their life,

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Speaker 3: you probably know more about their life than than most

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Speaker 3: people do. I've ever done. But that was a weird situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: being there just us, it was quite sad. Really, it

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Speaker 3: was really quite sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like.

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Speaker 1: To think a life carried more, but yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: the circumstances people find themselves in. Before we break down

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Speaker 1: homicide investigation, because as I said at the start, I

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Speaker 1: want to take a deep dive into the nuances of

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Speaker 1: homicide investigation and get your thoughts on things that I

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Speaker 1: think people will find fascinating.

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Speaker 2: But let's just a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 1: Your career, where you worked, and your background a little

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Speaker 1: bit about yourself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I joined really young. I was twenty and

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Speaker 3: I grew up on We couldn't counsel the states in

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Speaker 3: the UK, like social housing type places. I've always lived

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Speaker 3: on those as a kid, so mymies tended to go

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Speaker 3: the other way rather than the police. And no one

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Speaker 3: in my family had ever joined the police, so it

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Speaker 3: was a bit left field and I did it. But

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Speaker 3: when I left school, I did an a level in

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Speaker 3: accountancy and I thought, coming from a poor background, I

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Speaker 3: was like, well this, this could be a bit of

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Speaker 3: money in this, so I'll go and do some accountancye

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Speaker 3: oh Gary. It was so boring. It was so boring,

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Speaker 3: and we had offices at the back of the Old Bailey,

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Speaker 3: the main court in London, and I used to see

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Speaker 3: the comings and goings of the police. They bring the

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Speaker 3: terrorists in with blue lights and sirens and convoys and everything.

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Speaker 3: That looks so much more exciting what I'm doing. So

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Speaker 3: I ended up I ended up applying for the police,

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Speaker 3: got in about two weeks after my twentieth birthday, and

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Speaker 3: then I got posted to where I grew up and

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Speaker 3: I went quite a rough school, So I did nicking

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Speaker 3: people I went to school with, and so it was

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Speaker 3: a bit of a test of but I've I strongly,

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Speaker 3: strongly believed this right. So I one of my bosses said,

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Speaker 3: I took it to I con ductor water. And the

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Speaker 3: only reason I'm saying it is because I was basically

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Speaker 3: policing the people I grew up with. So I could

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Speaker 3: spot a criminal a mile off, like of from my

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Speaker 3: from my demographic, from my area, I could spot on

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Speaker 3: my mile off because I knew them. I grew up

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Speaker 3: with them, I played with them at school, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean. We all grew up to if not

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Speaker 3: that person, then someone liked them. And it allowed me

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Speaker 3: to sort of I hit the ground running in terms

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Speaker 3: of a knew the area or I knew the people,

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Speaker 3: so I can then concentrate on targeting. And I just

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Speaker 3: found this passion for chasing a criminal. So even when

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Speaker 3: I was in uniform, when I came on, it was

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Speaker 3: about going out and trying to find a criminal. And

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Speaker 3: I literally just pick up some car keys go out

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Speaker 3: and it was it was a bit like a game.

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Speaker 3: I was out there hunting, hunting criminals. And I think

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Speaker 3: when you do that, it sort of pulls you down

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Speaker 3: the route of being a detective because you then want

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Speaker 3: to chase the more serious criminals. You want your Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I might nick someone for burglary, but what about fucking

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Speaker 3: nick and with an arm robbery? Or what about a

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Speaker 3: fucking murder or what? And you always trying to You're

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Speaker 3: always trying to up your game in terms of who

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Speaker 3: you're chasing. So that's what dragged me. I ended up

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Speaker 3: in terrorism and murder. And that's so every everything I

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Speaker 3: did from the first time I came out in uniform.

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Speaker 3: So when I was when I was at the Old

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Speaker 3: Bailey convicted murderers, it was it was all the same

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Speaker 3: thing for me. It was all about catching that catching

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Speaker 3: that criminal. And as I say, you just sort of

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Speaker 3: you end up on the path. And I'm sure it's

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Speaker 3: very similar for you going and how you ended up

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Speaker 3: in normicide and what was motivating you aread imagine.

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Speaker 1: Well, I like the use of the word hunting. People

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Speaker 1: might say, oh, that's a bit strong, you're talking humans,

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Speaker 1: But you were hunting in homicide. I was hunting the killer.

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Speaker 1: And that's the type of and I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: too strong a word. That's what you're actually doing so,

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Speaker 1: I do understand where you're coming from and in your book,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I thought, Okay, I know what this

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Speaker 1: blokes about when you talk about hunting, and that was

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Speaker 1: a thrill of the chase and finding out what's happened.

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Speaker 1: Now people can probably put it in more noble terms

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Speaker 1: than that, you know, finding truth and justice and all that.

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Speaker 1: But when it all comes down to it, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of detectives that I know, detectives I've had on

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Speaker 1: the podcast I haven't worked with, I've had quite a

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Speaker 1: few of them refer to it was the thrill of

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Speaker 1: a hunt. That's what That's what we're doing. And I

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Speaker 1: think that does drive you, and you've got to have that.

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Speaker 1: I believe that competitive edge. And I know the common

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Speaker 1: PC thing is I don't let it get personal. And

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Speaker 1: I get told you too passionate, but I deliberately made

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Speaker 1: it personal when I was on the case. It was

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Speaker 1: personal to me, and I think it helps you and

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Speaker 1: drives you as a detective.

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Speaker 3: I used to I used to do some of my

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Speaker 3: best detective work in bed, which which sounds weird, Okay, Well, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I literally never switched off. So what you said something

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Speaker 3: about do you say it as a competitive so I've

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Speaker 3: a very competitive person. I hate losing, and that's what

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Speaker 3: it felt like. If I didn't if I didn't solve

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Speaker 3: a murder, I'd lost, and I hate losing. So I

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Speaker 3: was you come home and even though you finish work,

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Speaker 3: it's you're still thinking about it. And when I was

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Speaker 3: in bed and sort of all the other noise has

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Speaker 3: gone and you can just concentrate. So many times I'd

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Speaker 3: be laying in and something would spark in my mind

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Speaker 3: about a line of inquiry that we could follow, or

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Speaker 3: something we could do, or someone someone we could speak to,

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Speaker 3: or some tactic we could use. And quieter coming in

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Speaker 3: the next morning and I'd be like, right, this is

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Speaker 3: this is what we're going to do. To the team.

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Speaker 3: We're doing this, And it's because my brain was able

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Speaker 3: to just really fully concentrate on it. And you don't

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Speaker 3: switch off. It's a constant. Once you've picked up a murder,

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Speaker 3: all right, you don't just investigate one. So you'll get

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Speaker 3: one and you get another and toge another. So it's

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Speaker 3: difficult to always put your concentration on that one murder,

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Speaker 3: but it'd always be one that's the focus on your mind,

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Speaker 3: and it does kind of take over your life, and

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Speaker 3: I think, I mean, I think that's what makes us

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Speaker 3: better homicide detectives than someone who's just going to come

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Speaker 3: along and think, as you say, you could do a

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Speaker 3: nine to five. You can't do that.

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Speaker 2: You can't do that.

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Speaker 1: And I look, I'm not saying that would make you

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Speaker 1: a great partner or a person to live with, but

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Speaker 1: I understand understand what you're saying. You would carry it home.

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Speaker 1: It was twenty four to seven. You're on the job

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Speaker 1: and you're thinking about it, and sometimes you'd come up

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Speaker 1: with an idea you hadn't thought about and you couldn't

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Speaker 1: wait to get up and get to work the next day.

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Speaker 1: Or you go in on your day off and start

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Speaker 1: following that line of inquiry. It takes a bit out

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Speaker 1: of you. But if it's your passion, that doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: like work, and that's what I would say to people,

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Speaker 1: that was my passion, so it didn't feel like work,

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Speaker 1: and that will wire you in on your day off, well,

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Speaker 1: this is what I do, this is what I've signed

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Speaker 1: up for, and yeah, it's an extraordinary job. I always

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Speaker 1: thought the crooks were in more trouble, the bad guys

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Speaker 1: were in more trouble when my relationship was in a

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Speaker 1: bad position or it wasn't in a relationship, because that's

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Speaker 1: when I had nothing to distract me and just concentrate on. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's crack this case. The murder investigation team, just can

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Speaker 1: you break it down? In New South Wales we have

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Speaker 1: our major crime squad and that sits over the top

390
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Speaker 1: of it, and then we have our breakup of squads.

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Speaker 1: We have the hold up squad, the sexual assault squad,

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Speaker 1: the homicide squad, the fraud squad, that type of thing.

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Speaker 1: Explain the role of the murder investigation team in the

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Speaker 1: New Scotland yard that you were part of.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So in the UK, there's a system where we use.

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Speaker 3: They always have different aims. We call a murder investigation team.

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Speaker 3: That could be a major crime team, but the structure

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Speaker 3: is the same because we follow a manual across the

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Speaker 3: country and essentially it's a team that will investigate murders.

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Speaker 3: It wouldn't be individual detectives and they would be made

401
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Speaker 3: up something along the lines of this. So you know,

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Speaker 3: have a detective chief inspector, a couple of detective inspectors,

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Speaker 3: about four detective sergeants and roughly eighteen to twenty detective constables,

404
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Speaker 3: and so in that all of those will have different

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Speaker 3: kinds of responsibilities. And I use an analogy of a car,

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Speaker 3: so if you think of how a car works, So

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Speaker 3: the detective constables are the engine. They drive it. So

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Speaker 3: they're the people that are doing what would we consider

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Speaker 3: the police work. So they're doing they're taking the statements,

410
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Speaker 3: arresting people, looking for CCTV, becoming a family aising officer.

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Speaker 3: So the detective work, and that's the engine. That's the

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Speaker 3: engine that drives it. And then the sergeants are like

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Speaker 3: the pedals. They regulate the engine, make sure it's make

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Speaker 3: sure it's working proper, make sure it's not going too fast,

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Speaker 3: make sure it's not stopping. And then the d I

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Speaker 3: and the d C I is like steering wheel on

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Speaker 3: the top and they're directing the car in which the direction,

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Speaker 3: directing investigation, which which way we headed. So that that's

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Speaker 3: the kind of roles it is. So if you're a

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Speaker 3: d d c I, it's about sitting up top and

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Speaker 3: looking at which direction that it's going in. The d

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Speaker 3: S is sort of straddle both and I've got to

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Speaker 3: be honest, that was my favorite role as a DS

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Speaker 3: because I could, I could get my hands dirty, and

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Speaker 3: I had that overall sort of control because when it

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Speaker 3: was my job, it was me that would take it

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Speaker 3: to court as a DS and then the dcs would

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Speaker 3: do that work. And it does work really really well.

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Speaker 3: So everybody when a murder breaks, everybody will have their

430
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Speaker 3: own roles and responsibilities. So you will have an officer

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Speaker 3: that's designated as the exhibit officer, so it would be

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Speaker 3: those that would go into the crime scene and take

433
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 3: out the evidence. From there, you'd have a CCTV officer.

434
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,640
Speaker 3: We use family liais and officers really important role where

435
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 3: they're the earlier wh When I was talking on about

436
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 3: build up a picture of a victim's life to try

437
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 3: and solve the crime, the family laser officer is pivotal

438
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,199
Speaker 3: to that because they're going into those that are closest

439
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 3: to the family sorry, closest to the victim to try

440
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 3: and build up that picture. So every single role, every

441
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 3: strand and investigation is separated off to an individual officer

442
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 3: and it does work really well. It works really well.

443
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 3: Obviously important thing of that is team meeting so that

444
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 3: everybody got twenty five detectives or running off in different

445
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 3: directions they need to come back, and you know, regular

446
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 3: team meeting, so everybody knows what everybody else is doing

447
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 3: and how their strand fits.

448
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 1: In with the over the murder investigation team, your sole

449
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: responsibility was responding to murders and investigating murders. That's the

450
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,360
Speaker 1: makeup of the term.

451
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we also had responsibility for a couple of

452
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 3: other things, so high risk missing person so if someone

453
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: has gone missing and there's a real fear that some

454
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 3: harmer come to them, then we'd take on those and

455
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 3: also link series rapes. So the idea being that normally

456
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 3: the deficers that investigate rate normally would be singular officers

457
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 3: on their own, and if you've got a link series

458
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 3: a serial rapist across boundaries and various primes, it would

459
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 3: come to us because we would have the sort that

460
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 3: the resources to properly investigate it.

461
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: Okay, well again, not this similar to what we had here.

462
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: At one point in time, we were called homicide and

463
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: serial violin offenders, and that was for serial rapists that

464
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 1: we would target. On the homicide team, we've sort of

465
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 1: separated a little bit and our main focus is homicide.

466
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: Do you have an on call response over here in

467
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 1: New South Wales, we're on call every six weeks. So

468
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 1: your team, which was detective inspector, two or three sergeants

469
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 1: and six constables, that was a team. So every six

470
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 1: weeks you'd be responsible for responding to any murder that

471
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: happened with suspicious disappearance. Is that the similar type of

472
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: role that the murder investigation teams had been on call?

473
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 3: Percent So there are twenty in London than there are

474
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 3: twenty of these murder teams, and geographically the split so

475
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: London split into four four quarters and mine was southeast,

476
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: so people would have heard of Greenwich, so we covered

477
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: Greenwich and that side of London, and you would so

478
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 3: there were five teams at each base, so four times

479
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 3: five to twenty and then so every five weeks you'd

480
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 3: be on call and you provide twenty four to seven

481
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 3: cover and you'd separate your team and any murders that

482
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: came in in your area, you would be the ones

483
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 3: that would have to respond to them.

484
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 1: Right again, I picked up something in your book and

485
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 1: I think it's funny because it's very much the police

486
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: humor and logic in our thinking too. We're on call,

487
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 1: we'd start on a Monday or sometimes start midweek. They

488
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: shifted it a round sometimes, but as you got towards

489
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: the end of the on call period, because it was

490
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: sort of the phone could bring at any time at night,

491
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: you never slept really well, you couldn't get on the drink.

492
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: You're virtually just waiting for the call the happen. And

493
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: then if we look like we got through the weekend,

494
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: some idiot would say, Jesus, it's been a quiet on

495
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: call period, and that was that was a CHINX. And

496
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: I saw in your book someone mentioned that I can't

497
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: believe how quiet it is, and you're all in the office,

498
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: looked at the person and going, we call it.

499
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: The Q words. You don't use the Q word.

500
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 2: I didn't realize.

501
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: Out of all the things that I didn't realize impacted

502
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: on me as much when I was in homicide, was

503
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: the joy of not being on call. So every six

504
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 1: weeks or more you'd have a week out of your

505
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: life where you had to make sure you're ready to

506
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: respond and go anywhere. When I started the first day

507
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: of on call, I wanted something to happen, to get

508
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: it out of the way, because it was almost just

509
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: hanging there waiting for it. I don't want to get

510
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: through five nights sleep and then almost at the end

511
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: and then you get the case.

512
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 2: Did you feel that when.

513
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: You're on call, the pressure of being on call and

514
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: you don't realize how heavy it is until you've step

515
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: away from it.

516
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: Unupset? Yeah, everything your same resonates with me so much. Yeah,

517
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 3: all the funny alto you basically have to write your

518
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 3: life off. You can't. You can't plan anything, do anything

519
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: because SOBS law says if you if you were viewed

520
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: to have a family party, something was going to come

521
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: along and you're not going to be able to make it.

522
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 3: One of the things I really appreciate now about not

523
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 3: being in the police is I feel like I've got

524
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: my life back in terms of so I love football, soccer,

525
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 3: and so when a World Cup was on, I could

526
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 3: I could never guarantee I could watch the games. If

527
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 3: my mates were going out having a drink, I could

528
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 3: kind of commit to it. But there's always that off chance,

529
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: even when I wasn't on care, there's a good chance

530
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to cancel family parties, theater tickets, New's

531
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 3: Eve parties, so much of my life if I had

532
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 3: to counsel, and it's quite it's quite a nice feeling

533
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 3: now to when I say I'm going to do something,

534
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 3: I can commit to it and I'm not going to

535
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: let people down. And I felt like throughout basically my

536
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 3: because I was a detective quite early. I think being

537
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 3: a detective more than in uniform you have this is

538
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 3: I was continually letting people down, continue missing birthday parts

539
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: for the kids and all that kind of stuff. So

540
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 3: it's nice now that i'd say, if someone says I've

541
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 3: got a wedding, I can go, Yeah, I can RSVP.

542
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 3: You say, yeah, I'm going to be there, which is

543
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 3: a nice feeling.

544
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand. I understand because you couldn't commit, and

545
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: it felt like you tempted faith. If you decide, oh yeah,

546
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: i'll try, hopefully it'll stay quiet, and you virtually guarantee

547
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: that something was going to come in. Let's talk about murders,

548
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: like you get a call, a response to a body

549
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: being found to solve a murder, these questions and a

550
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: game from your book. But I'll just break it down

551
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: and then we'll talk about what actually happens. You're looking

552
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,239
Speaker 1: at things, who is a victim, what happened where did

553
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: it happen, When did it happen, why did it happen,

554
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: and how did it happen? When you break it down there,

555
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: it seems very simple, but it's far from a simple process.

556
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: But sometimes it's easy to put a structure and trying

557
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: to work out what's happened. So what your response is

558
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: when you're on call, you get a call and there's

559
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: been a situation that you've got to respond to. What

560
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: type of thing are you likely to be confronted with?

561
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, so first off, it's a really important time because

562
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 3: if you don't get it right at the beginning of

563
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 3: a murder, those first hour, two hours, three hours, whether

564
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: it is, you can't get that time back. So you

565
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 3: know there's a lot of pressure on you. And one

566
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 3: of the things that you also know is that every

567
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: decision you make and everything you do now at this

568
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: early stage is going to be poured over by clever

569
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 3: lawyers later on who are going to have months and

570
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 3: months to second guess what you've had. Decisions you've had

571
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: to make in seconds. So there is a lot of

572
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 3: pressure on you. So you go in and and knowing

573
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 3: you've got to get it right. So and what we

574
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 3: do in the UK detectives don't use blue lights and

575
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: sirens generally, but on a homicide team we do. So

576
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 3: you need to get there as quickly as possible, So

577
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: you get in the car, blue lights and sirens to

578
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: get there, and we call it the golden hour, that

579
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 3: time immediately after a murder, and it's when the evidence

580
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: is most abundantly there. There's going to be there's going

581
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 3: to be chances to the case there that if you

582
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: don't get it right, you're going to lose. It's really important,

583
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 3: so you've got all that pressure on you and also

584
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 3: as well, like you know, it's like when you're driving

585
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: blue lights and sirens, your adrenaline is going anyway, so

586
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 3: your adrenaline is through the roof by the time you

587
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 3: get there. More often not, you're going to get there

588
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 3: and it's and it's chaos and there's going to be

589
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: there's going to be so much going on, and the

590
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 3: moment you turn up, the local officers are going to

591
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: be looking at you. You get this look, I'm sure

592
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 3: you've seen it, where they're so relieved that you're there

593
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: because you can now take the pressure. If anything's going

594
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 3: to get wrong, it's down to you exactly exactly so

595
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 3: you get that and what we do in the UK

596
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: we train our detectives to use a system that because

597
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 3: you've got all that adrenaline going through your system, because

598
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 3: you know that pressure is on you, you don't want

599
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 3: to make mistakes. We use a system known as the

600
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,479
Speaker 3: five Building Blocks and it's just a simple, simple steps

601
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: you can go through when you're at a crime scene

602
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: when you've got all that pressure on you. And it

603
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 3: needs to be simple because if you're if you're working

604
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 3: in pressure, you can't be trying to think of some complicated,

605
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: convoluted way investigating the murder. You need to break it

606
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: down into something very very simple. So we use these

607
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: five steps and it's preservation of life, preservation of scene,

608
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: securing of evidence, identify victim, identify and the rest suspects.

609
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 3: So there are five steps you go through. So the

610
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 3: first one preservation of life. Obviously the major thing in

611
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: any police officer's role is that preservation of life. We're

612
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: there to protect people and that may sound well, they're dead,

613
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: you've been called there a homicide, but you have to

614
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: think about things like so if you were to go

615
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: to a house and there was a dead body in

616
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 3: the living room, Well, have you checked upstairs, do we

617
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: know for a fact there aren't any other victims, because

618
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: you do end up at scenes where are multiple victims,

619
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: and the last thing you want is to have someone

620
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: bleeding out upstairs because the police have just seen a

621
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: dead body downstairs and haven't thought about So you're thinking

622
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: about that. Then the preservation of scene, and that's where

623
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: we use Cordon's and we're trying to make it a

624
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 3: situation where nobody's going to be interfering with evidence or

625
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: trampling over DNA that kind of thing. They're securing of evidence.

626
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 3: So I'm not talking about fingerprints and DNA. I'm talking

627
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 3: about evidence that would be there that would be lost.

628
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: So for instance, witnesses there might be quick when CCTVs.

629
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 3: If you check CCDV quickly, it might give you the suspect.

630
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: It could be a weapon's been discarded or some clothing

631
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 3: has been discarded, but things that you've got to think

632
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: about getting hold of quickly. Then identification of victim because

633
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 3: as I said I said before, if you understand a

634
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: victim in their life, you got much better chance of

635
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: solving a murder.

636
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: Just on the preservation of the crime scene. I understand

637
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: the preservation of life, that's an obvious thing. And there's

638
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: also the potential threat if there's a dead body, there

639
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: is a killer still around. Who knows like there's been

640
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: circumstances where that the killer has been found there and

641
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: it could have inflicted more dammage on people. But the

642
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: preservation of the crime scene is crucial we and I'm

643
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: sure it's similar to you in and out a perimela,

644
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: a crime scene log who goes in there, keep everyone out?

645
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: No one needs to go in there unless they need

646
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: to be in there. But the chaos that you've just

647
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: described it is that way. And quite often that's two

648
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning or lack a sleep and you've

649
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: turned up there and people are running around. There's a

650
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: lot of emotion, and it is just breaking it down,

651
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: doing the simple things, but doing them properly, Isn't it

652
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: making sure that you've set up all the steps, Yeah,

653
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: one hundred percent.

654
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 3: I mean there are certain skills I think you need

655
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: to be a detective, and one of them is to

656
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 3: be able to make good decisions. And you're being asked

657
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 3: to make decisions on the flight. You've got to make them. Now,

658
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: you can't you can't go home and think about it

659
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 3: for an hour. You've got to make a decision there

660
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: and then. So I always had a system in my

661
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: mind of how I came to making decisions, because you're

662
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: not always going to get it right, but you need

663
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: to have thought it through to a point where you

664
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: can at least justify yourself in court because it's very

665
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: easy months later. So we should have done that, well, yeah,

666
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: I should have done on the information I had. That

667
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: was what I felt was the right decision. And what

668
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 3: we do is so what I would do when I

669
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: would turn up at a murder scene is I would

670
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: have I'd call it my scribe. I'd have a DC

671
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: with me writing down. So if I'm one of the

672
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 3: first things I'll do and I turn up to the

673
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: murder scene, is I need to identify which officer there

674
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: can give me the information I need to go about

675
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 3: investigating this crime. And that might be the senior officer,

676
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: it might be the first on scene, but I need

677
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: to get information from them. So I'm going to want

678
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 3: to know from them what has happened and what have

679
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 3: you done? And then I'm going to be starting to

680
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: ask questions. I'm going to be starting to make decisions

681
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: telling them to do things, and I would have a

682
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 3: DC writing down what I was saying. And that's really

683
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 3: important because later on when you're asked, well, why did

684
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 3: you do why did you do that? What did you

685
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: tell them to do? That kind of thing, You can't

686
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 3: write and talk and record everything and remember everything, and

687
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: it all comes down. So one of the things that

688
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: you have to at point where you get in the

689
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: car and you drive to the murder scene, whether consciously

690
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: or subconsciously, you're thinking about court because everything you do

691
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: is about what plays out in the trial. Everything the

692
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: decisions you make now in the first ten minutes are

693
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 3: going to impact what happens at the trial. So you

694
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: always have to have that on your mind. So, yeah,

695
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 3: I've only just got here, I might have only been

696
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: here five minutes, but this decision I'm making now could

697
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: well I could be in the box justifying it a

698
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 3: year later. So recording everything you do is so important

699
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 3: when it comes to that all the way for remote investigation,

700
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 3: but definitely at the beginning.

701
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying because there is so much

702
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: accountability in when you're investigating the homicide. I was taught

703
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: by people that taught me, and when we talk about

704
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: what I do or that, and I know you acknowledge it.

705
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: It's such a team effort, and we'll talk about the

706
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: components of the team. It's not one individual. But we're

707
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: always taught that you're a homicide on call. Once you've

708
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: been notified, you're going to have to make decisions from there.

709
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: You're going to have to contact the person that scene

710
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: and make sure the scenes preserve. You're responsible for it

711
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: from the time that you've been notified about it, say

712
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: the decisions. You've got to be able to justify having ascribe.

713
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: I know, and it seems like a thankless task, but

714
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: when I was in that position where I needed someone

715
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,959
Speaker 1: that could make notes of all the decisions I'm making,

716
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: I would pick someone that I relied upon heavily, someone

717
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: that I could trust, Because you knew how crucial it

718
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: was that you had those records that you could be

719
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: able to produce and justify your decisions when you come

720
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: to court. So you've preserved the crime scene, you've made

721
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: the decisions. You talk CCTV footage, which is it's grown

722
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: exponentially the type of electronic data you can get, canvassing

723
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: of the area, interviewing witnesses. What's your thought on canvassing,

724
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: because again, that's something that was drummed into me very

725
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: early in my homicide career, and it's something I like

726
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: to think I passed on the importance of speaking to

727
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: people right at the time when this incidents occurred, finding

728
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: out who was in the area, that type of thing.

729
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. So we have two different ways

730
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 3: of doing that. We have what's known as directed local inquiries.

731
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 3: So that's where you are there at the very beginning,

732
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 3: and you're saying, right, these these are the houses that

733
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: overlook the murder scene. Let's go knock on the doors,

734
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: speak to the people there and see if anybody saw

735
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 3: or heard anything of One of the things that those

736
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 3: five steps I was talking about, and one of the

737
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 3: fifth one is arresting the suspect. I don't don't want

738
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 3: to jump here, but it's it's so important that if

739
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 3: you can get hold of a suspect and the rest

740
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 3: and the sooner you do it, the better chance you've

741
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 3: got a convicted them, because you've got more chance of

742
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: getting their DNA fingerprint, DNA from the from the victim,

743
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: blood from the victim, the murder weapon, any property and

744
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 3: stolen in their telephone. There's so much you can get

745
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: and if you go knocking on the door, all you

746
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 3: need is that nosy neighbor to say, actually, yeah, I

747
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: was looking at a window and actually here's a registration

748
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 3: number of a car. And if you don't go knocking

749
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: on the doors, you're not you're not going to find that.

750
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 3: So that's directed local inquiries. And then we then we

751
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: have what we call house to house and that's the

752
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 3: more strategic, long term thing, where's it might be the

753
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,479
Speaker 3: days that follow, and it's all it's all really thought

754
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 3: out about where you're going to knock, what questions are

755
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 3: going to ask, are you going to take descriptions of

756
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 3: the people you're speaking to, where are you going to

757
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 3: do it? So this is those two stages, but those

758
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 3: more often than not, there's those directed local inquiries initial

759
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 3: ones where you're not going on the door, where you're

760
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 3: going to get that really important information that's going to

761
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: that's going to push your investigation of.

762
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: So often there's so much that can be gained by

763
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: being methodical in the way that you gather that information.

764
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, hundred percent. I mean, this old of the murder

765
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 3: is about just trying to get those little bits of information,

766
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: and you're pulling them all together and somehow you've you've

767
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: been at Gary where you're at the beginning of a

768
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: murder inquiry and you think, Ada, how are we going

769
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 3: to solve this one? I mean, this looks like we

770
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 3: call them a sticker. This looks like it's going to

771
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 3: be a sticker. Where are we going with this? And

772
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: then's just one tiny little bit of information from the

773
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: old lady potentially that was that was just walking past

774
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: or something like that can can completely andly change everything

775
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 3: because you do you get that red car, and then

776
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 3: when you look at the red car, you're looking at

777
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: the CCTV AMPR. You can look at intelligence as a

778
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: huge rivers of red and I mean it can just

779
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 3: it can change an investigation just one tiny little piece

780
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 3: of information.

781
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 1: Let's delve into the importance of finding out about the victim. Now, victimology,

782
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: we refer to it over here. I think you probably

783
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: use the same terminology. But invariably, the answer to finding

784
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: out who killed this person comes from who this person was,

785
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: who this person associated with. You do get random murders,

786
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: but they they're rarer the person in the wrong place,

787
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: at the wrong time, invariably at someone connected to that

788
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: person or the lifestyle of that person that might potentially

789
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: lead to them becoming a victim. How much weight do

790
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: you place on victimology and how do you approach it?

791
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: I found until we found out who the victim was,

792
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: I was always because part of the role when you're

793
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,479
Speaker 1: running the investigation was identifying lines of inquiry, and quite

794
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: often when you hadn't found out who the victim was,

795
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: it was hard to find where do we start up

796
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: with it? As you said, you get overwhelmed with This

797
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: is going to be a tough one.

798
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: Mate, Yeah, completely, completely, completely. I mean you can't overemphasize

799
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 3: the importance of victimology. In the UK, the government published

800
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 3: figures every year. They really I love stats, so I

801
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 3: geek out on these stats every year when they publish them.

802
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 3: But they're really interesting that they break it down into

803
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 3: the relationship between a suspect and a victim, and it's

804
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: really off the top of my head, it's something like

805
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: less than ten percent of women are killed by strangers,

806
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 3: so that shows that in the vast majority of murders,

807
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 3: there is a link between the victim and the killer,

808
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 3: and it's your job to try and identify that link.

809
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: So you're looking into their life for any kind of

810
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 3: motive that is there someone within their life that is

811
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: an obvious suspect, or is there an aspect of their

812
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 3: life that would lend itself to a motive, or what

813
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 3: could somebody gain from killing from murdering them as there

814
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 3: been some kind of event that's triggered this. So looking

815
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 3: into their life you got and building up that picture,

816
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: you've got much better chance of solving a crime. And

817
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: as you say, if you don't know who the victim is,

818
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: then you then just reliant on what evidence is there

819
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: at the scene. Has someone seen something is sectv is

820
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 3: the forensics.

821
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: That was always gave the kick along to an investigation

822
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: once you identified who the victim is too, or if

823
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,479
Speaker 1: you didn't know who the victim was, if you didn't

824
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: have a starting point for their lifestyle, so that would

825
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: open up all sorts of lines of inquiry and double

826
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: triple the workload at that particular point in time in

827
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: a good way. Post mortem examinations the importance of that

828
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: again can't be underestimated. People I think wondered, Well, you've

829
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: got the forensic pathologists going there to examine the body.

830
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: Why are you sending detectives there? But I've always found

831
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: that it was a crucial part of the investigation to

832
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: have a detective there. Why the post more examination was

833
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: going on, so you could find out more about how

834
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: the crime was committed and what actually took place. What's

835
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: your thought on the attendance at past mortems.

836
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 3: It's crucial, It's crucial. I could come up with an example.

837
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 3: So we had this crime. It was quite a brutal one, really.

838
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: It was two men in the flat and one of

839
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 3: them had been stabbed off the top of my head

840
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: and there it was something like sixty seventy times and

841
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 3: he had his face really basically caved in with an

842
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 3: eye and I mean, it's a really brutal one. And

843
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: then his flatmate was in the front room. He had

844
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: twenty seven stab wounds to his back and stuff. So

845
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: it was really really brutal crime. So imagine there's lots

846
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 3: of blood. And it wasn't actually a detective. It was

847
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 3: the crime scene manager. And the crime see manager a

848
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 3: really important role in the UK. They're a civilian, they're

849
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 3: not a detective, but they are almost like the CSI

850
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: promoted so that they started off as as scenes of

851
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 3: crime off service and then they're proed and so we

852
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 3: were there. There was detectives there, crime scene manager and

853
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 3: the forensic pathologist. And part of the job is obviously

854
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 3: the pathologies looking to identify how a person diet and

855
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: the circumstances around it, but also looking to retrieve samples

856
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 3: from the body that can be tested for DNA et cetera.

857
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 3: And he was doing this and the CSM pointed, so

858
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 3: you imagine a body that's that's got a lot of

859
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 3: blood on it, but on his toe there was a

860
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: drop of blood, so like someone had done a nose bleed.

861
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 3: The blood looked like it had dropped onto his toe

862
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: and he was laying in bed, so how how could

863
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 3: this blood have got there? And the pathologists was like, well,

864
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 3: there's lots of blood, and the CSM was really strong,

865
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 3: and it was like, no, look that that just doesn't

866
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 3: look right. That drop of blood on his toe doesn't

867
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: fit with the rest of it. So essentially made the

868
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 3: cs that made the pathologists sample his blood on the

869
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: toe and it came back as the suspect. The one

870
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 3: bit of DNA we had, the one bit of evidence

871
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 3: we had that can link him to the crime scene,

872
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: because when you stabbing someone in a frenzy, there's a

873
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: good chance you're going to cut your own hand because

874
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 3: knives don't have hilts, and that's why in the old

875
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 3: day's swords had hilts. Let's stop your hand traveling up

876
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: the sword and slipping. But when someone's stabbing in a frenzy,

877
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 3: is a good chance they're going to cut their hand.

878
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: And that it was essentially that bit of evidence that

879
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 3: completely artly blueed case open. And although we were looking

880
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 3: at this person, we couldn't put them in the crime

881
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: sceing and this blood did it. And if we just

882
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 3: left it to mythologist to just crack on and do that,

883
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: that would have been missed. And there's a good chance

884
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 3: that that person would now be walking free as opposed

885
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: to having thirty seven years in prison, which which they got.

886
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: So it's crucial again that attention to detail, and you

887
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: talk about the crime saying officers, and we had some

888
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: great ones here, and they were a wealth of experience

889
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: that comes from years and years and years of turning

890
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: up at these crime scenes and just being able to

891
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: look at things a little bit differently and a little

892
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 1: bit clearer. I saw in your book you talked about

893
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: you'd like to stand still in the crime scene when

894
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 1: when all the chaos is set, and then put yourself

895
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: in the crime scene and try to visualize, not in

896
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: a fanciful way, but just get a sense of, Okay,

897
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: what took place here. Talk us about that, because I'm

898
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: a big believer in that too. I think you can

899
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: learn a lot if you're going to be investigating a

900
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: crime getting in the real sense by just standing and

901
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: getting the feel of what's gone on.

902
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 3: It sounds, it sounds so simple, but it's such an

903
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 3: important I wouldn't say it's even a skill. It's just

904
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 3: something that a detective should do, is just stand still.

905
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: And so many sexes don't do that. And a lot

906
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 3: of it comes down to when I was talking earlier

907
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: about that adrenaline. When you're turning up at a crime

908
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: scene and you've got all that chaos, sometimes it's very

909
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 3: difficult to sent to yourself and say, right, I need

910
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 3: to just slow myself down and just standing still and

911
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 3: just looking around, looking up, looking down, and trying to

912
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: take in what you're seeing, not just not just not

913
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 3: just looking around, but trying to interpret what you're seeing.

914
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 3: Trying if there's I don't know, if there might be

915
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: something out of place within a bedroom, and if you're

916
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: if you're not, if you're not looking out for that,

917
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 3: you won't see it because you just you're just looking

918
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 3: at around the room and then you're trying to interpret it.

919
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 3: So so for instance, that that that crime scene I

920
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 3: was talking about, on the bed, there were there were

921
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 3: a pair of trousers and the pockets were turned out.

922
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 3: So when you're looking at that, you think, right, okay,

923
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 3: so why would somebody be going through is robbery or motive?

924
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 3: So just just tiny little things like that, and it's

925
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: so easy to miss if you do get caught up

926
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 3: in that I'm running around and I need to solve

927
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 3: this crime and I'm under pressure that had just stop,

928
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,479
Speaker 3: slow down outside the crime scene. Just have a look around,

929
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: look at look look look at look at everything around

930
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: this crime scene. And another thing I used to do

931
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 3: as well is because of that chaos, go back to

932
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 3: that crime scene and do that exercise when everything everyone

933
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 3: else is gone, because you get a very different feel

934
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 3: for a crime scene once all the police officers gone,

935
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 3: the blue light have gone, that the crowds that are

936
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: there taking pictures. Once all that chaos has gone, you

937
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 3: get a much different feel for a crime scene and

938
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 3: what it would have been like at the time a

939
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 3: murder took place. And that was that always found that

940
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 3: a really valuable exercise for me to understand that crime

941
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: scene and not what I was presented with that night

942
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: when when it was chaos. And another thing as well,

943
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 3: I always used to do is you go back and

944
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: just just just mingle with the people that are there.

945
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 3: And children were a great one. So I grew up

946
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: on these states I grew up on. I knew what

947
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: was going on as police officers didn't. They didn't live there.

948
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 3: I was hanging around on the street corners. I knew

949
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: what was going on. So just just just wonder and

950
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 3: just have a really relaxed chat with some of the

951
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: kids that are hanging around, and you'll be shocked what

952
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 3: they tell you because they know what's going on. So

953
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 3: it's just little things like that that that's not written

954
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 3: down in a book. You don't get a menual on

955
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 3: how to how to solve these crimes. But as you're saying,

956
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: you you got handed down in for for people to

957
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: have been there before, and I did, and you just

958
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 3: pick up on these little things that just that can

959
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 3: nine times out of tain. It might not lead anywhere,

960
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 3: but it's just that one time you might speak to

961
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 3: a kid and say, oh, yeah, I saw him another

962
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 3: day having an argument with Joe Blogs and actually, yeah,

963
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: when you look at Joe Blogs and you suddenly you

964
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: can then put him at the Sime scene with his

965
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 3: phones or whatever. So yeah, there's little a nuances like

966
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 3: that and an investigation that can be so important.

967
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 1: The other thing about homicide they don't think people appreciate

968
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: is the sheer volume of information that can come in

969
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: very early. You can sometimes be overwhelmed by the information.

970
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: And again I pay homage to the people that passed

971
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: on their skill set to me, and it's almost like

972
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 1: a lineage that gets passed down. But people would often

973
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: So what happens when you go to a homicide and

974
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: from our point of view and what I was shown,

975
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 1: just make sure you've got the information system set up properly.

976
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,760
Speaker 1: And that might be as simple as having an intray

977
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: where pieces of information that coming in set up your

978
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: computer system. You've got homes over here in New South

979
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: Wales we had a system called cops. Not this similar

980
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: to what you have with homes, but the importance of

981
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: getting on top of the chaos of the information that

982
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: comes in so you can gather, assess, collate and then

983
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: allocate task flowing from that. Do you want to talk

984
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: on that management of information in a homicide investigation because

985
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: it's not the sexy topic, it's not the topic that

986
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 1: gets shown shown on the TV shows, but it's crucial.

987
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, lookka, I'll be honest. Homes be brutally honest. I

988
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:36,919
Speaker 3: was sort of I wanted to be out and about.

989
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 3: I didn't want to be in an office dener with homes.

990
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 3: But it's so important, as you say, you're getting thousands

991
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 3: of bits of information coming in and you've got to

992
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: be able to collate that, cross reference it. And so

993
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: what happened in the UK is we in the nineteen seventies,

994
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 3: I want to say, Now, yeah, it was a seventies

995
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 3: We had the Yorkshire Ripper and Peter Sutcliffe killed thirteen

996
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 3: women in Yorkshire in this cross It was but so

997
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 3: many lessons have been learned from that. So one of

998
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 3: the what went wrong is they didn't have a computer system,

999
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 3: they had a paper system, and he was committing murders

1000
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 3: across multiple policing areas, and so when he was eventually

1001
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 3: identified as the killer, he appeared in all their different

1002
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 3: various bits of paperwork in that he had been interviewed

1003
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 3: by the police nine times and there was no way

1004
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: of cross reference in those so unless you had an

1005
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 3: officer that happened across his name, remembered it and whatever.

1006
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 3: But the problem was you had so much paperwork in

1007
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 3: different police forces, none of it was being married up

1008
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 3: out of that you think how many time And there

1009
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 3: was a note at the end from a friend of

1010
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 3: his saying I think Peter Suckcliffe is the Yorkshire Ripper

1011
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 3: and they found this note. So that was a turning

1012
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: point brilliant and homicide investigations in the UK well, we can't.

1013
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 3: This cannot happen again. So HOMES was introduced. HOMES stands

1014
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: for Home Office Large Major Inquiry System. I mean they

1015
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 3: really shoehorn that they get, but they're really they come

1016
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 3: up with that and it is really really important. And

1017
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: as I say, it's not the sexy side of police

1018
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 3: in and it wasn't. It wasn't for me, didn't I

1019
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 3: didn't enjoy it, but I understood the importance of it

1020
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 3: to your investigation.

1021
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: And again when you're putting together or bringing together an

1022
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: investigation team. There were some people that bought into that

1023
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: type of stuff. They loved that, the computer geeks. That

1024
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: was their era of expertise. When I would put a

1025
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: team together for a murder investigation, you can't always get

1026
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: the ones you want. Sometimes it's whatever's available. But I

1027
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: would try to get a cross section of skills across

1028
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,919
Speaker 1: on a team because you need that mix in a team.

1029
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: You don't want everyone like you or me running out

1030
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: the door chasing chasing crooks with no one's doing the

1031
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: information management. But it's crucial to build that up. And

1032
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: when you talk about being in the witness box at court,

1033
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: you feel good when you know you've set your information

1034
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 1: management system up properly. Yes, we received two thousand calls

1035
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: from crime stoppers, we filed them and you know where

1036
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: all the information's gone and things weren't missed. It's funny

1037
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: you talk about the Yorkshire Ripper, because I think our

1038
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: skill set in homicide investigation was vastly improved by the

1039
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: Ivan Malatt, the backpack of murderer, and also we had

1040
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: he murdered seven seven people and a granny killer which

1041
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: was another one that was operating around the north shore

1042
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: of Sydney and killed six people. And it was that

1043
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: type of pressure where information where investigations were operating in

1044
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: let's say silos, and the information wasn't being passed on

1045
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: and lessons were learnt from that. So it is an

1046
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: improved system. We'll go now to when you've identified the victim,

1047
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: because I think this is at the heart and soul

1048
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 1: of homicide investigations too, because when we talk about people's

1049
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: lives being impacted upon, it has an impact on families.

1050
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 1: It's not just one person. It's like a ripple effect

1051
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: and it's a generational impact. But I just want to

1052
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: read something that and I think if you've been in

1053
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: homicide long enough, for a police officer long enough, you've

1054
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: had to deliver the horrible messages and how hard that

1055
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: is to knock on someone's door and know that you're

1056
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: going to destroy their lives by the information you've got.

1057
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: And this is what you said talking about not deifying

1058
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: the families. When you've identified who the victim is, the

1059
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: family mightn't be aware and you've gone to inform them,

1060
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: you know, the next words that come out of your

1061
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: mouth will change their lives forever, and they are unlikely

1062
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: to ever forget what you say. That makes choosing the

1063
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: right words so important. There is no easy way and

1064
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: no right way, but there can be a wrong way.

1065
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: For me, it was always a balance, a balance between

1066
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: leaving them in no doubt but being as sympathetic as

1067
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: possible your words talking about informing families of their loved

1068
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: ones being murdered. Do you want to talk us through

1069
00:51:58,600 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that.

1070
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you've been there, Gary like it's you

1071
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 3: feel I don't know what the word would be, but

1072
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 3: you feel like it is so important on on for

1073
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 3: the rest of their lives. Well, the words that are

1074
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: going to come out of your mouth now, and if

1075
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 3: I say you there is no right there's no there's

1076
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 3: nobody can say to you. These are the words you

1077
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 3: have to say, So there's no right way. But if

1078
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 3: you mess it up, you know that that's what they're

1079
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 3: going to remember that and that's that This this scenario

1080
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 3: now for you is this is your job, this is

1081
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 3: their life and and and they're going to replay this

1082
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 3: over and over again for the rest of their life.

1083
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 3: And you feel that pressure, You feel like I need

1084
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 3: I need to get this messages across. I need to

1085
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 3: make it clear so there is no There's different stages

1086
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 3: of grief and one of those is NIW and quite

1087
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 3: often that that's that's the first thing you'll get when

1088
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 3: you when you tell someone that their loved one's dead,

1089
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 3: they will be in denial. They'll be like that, it

1090
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 3: can't be them. I just spoke. I just spoke to

1091
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 3: them to find that it can't be there. So you

1092
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 3: need it's almost cruel to sort of deliver it in

1093
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 3: a way where there's almost hope in there. So you

1094
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 3: have to be definitive. You have to make it clear

1095
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: to them that no, you loved one's dead. But you

1096
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 3: don't want to deliver it in a blunt way. You

1097
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 3: need to deliver it. You need to sugarcoat in a

1098
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 3: way that isn't isn't going to completely destroy me. It's

1099
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 3: such an odd things I did fowl that pressure because

1100
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 3: even now I think back to when I've done that

1101
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 3: to me, I have to really try and think about it.

1102
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 3: But to them, I imagine in my face, is one

1103
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 3: of those things that they will always remember because of

1104
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 3: that message I delivered to them. And it's hard, isn't it.

1105
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: It is hard and it stays with you.

1106
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: And I've got images of you know, walking up the

1107
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: driveway or knocking on the door and the moment the

1108
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: door's open, they know something's up, or they might have

1109
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: reported their child missing or something like that, and you

1110
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: carry it for a long time. And I think with

1111
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: the families too, like the relationship that you have the

1112
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: families and you talk about the family liaison officer and

1113
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: people that keep the families informed. I think, the worst

1114
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: possible news, the worst possible event of their life, and

1115
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: you remind them of it because you're the one that

1116
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: bought the book the news to it. It's very very heavy,

1117
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: heavy stuff, but I read that out because it is

1118
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,959
Speaker 1: important what you said, because I know you can't hedge

1119
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 1: your bets. You can't go, look, we think it is

1120
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: this person. You're not telling them it's a person unless

1121
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: you know it's a person, so you can't heage your bets,

1122
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: and it just it feels so cruel, but there's no

1123
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: good way of saying it, and you don't know how

1124
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: the people are going to react. I've had people react

1125
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: in every way you could imagine, complete denial, aggression.

1126
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 2: Or just collapse on the floor.

1127
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: You just don't know, but you do carry it with you,

1128
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: and those type of things I think for a homicide

1129
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: detective also carry you give your strength to make sure

1130
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: you do everything humanly possible to find out what's happened

1131
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 1: to their loved one.

1132
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 3: Just a section of my book and I write about

1133
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 3: our all murders treated equally and in terms of like

1134
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 3: do you differentiate in how how you investigate one murder

1135
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 3: to another? The simple answer is no, you give you

1136
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 3: give your all two to every murder investigate, but there

1137
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 3: is no doubt that you become emotionally invested in others.

1138
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 3: More For me, it was always about children. If I'm

1139
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 3: investigating the murder of a child, I've become emotionally invested

1140
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 3: in it. And and you do get you do. You're

1141
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: on that journey with the family, that journey through the

1142
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 3: initial stages where they've just found out it could could

1143
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 3: have been you that told them about it, trying to

1144
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 3: trying it. That that what the most number one question

1145
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 3: I always got when it found is that initial stage

1146
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 3: was why, why why did this happen? Why why is

1147
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 3: my loved one dead? And so you're you're there trying

1148
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 3: to find the answer to them. For that. You go

1149
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 3: on that journey through investigation, get through the charge, going

1150
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 3: through the trial, and you do become you do you

1151
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 3: do get close to them. You're you're you're in the

1152
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 3: worst that their worst nightmare stage of their life. You're

1153
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 3: with them through that and you can't help but become

1154
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 3: emotionally attached to them. Only you'd have to be a robot.

1155
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 2: Not too Yeah, the double edged part of it too.

1156
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: But sometimes the family members are the suspect and you've

1157
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,919
Speaker 1: got to play that role of the sympathetic, caring cop

1158
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: that's delivered this horrendous news, then looking at the way

1159
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 1: they react and keeping an eye open are they involved.

1160
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a difficult thing.

1161
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 2: I have one.

1162
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you have a similar one. But

1163
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: there was a certain person that he was an uncle

1164
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: of the victim, and at the time that we were

1165
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: notifying the family, we were not one hundred percent sure,

1166
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: but had some good red flags indicating that he might

1167
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,240
Speaker 1: have been the person responsible for it. It was a horrific,

1168
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 1: sexually motivated murder. It was a horrendous one. We've knocked

1169
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: on the door and the famili's answered door and said,

1170
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: you know, with the empathy that is required for this

1171
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: gone in and said, look, got some bad news. Do

1172
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: you want to sit down? Is there anyone else here?

1173
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: And they sat on the lounge and said, look, we've

1174
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: identified this body that were found at such and such,

1175
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: and there was genuine grief in the room. Our suspect

1176
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: was doing his best to cry, like, had his head down,

1177
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: hands in his hands, in his face, and I remember

1178
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,919
Speaker 1: he looked up at me and pretend why he's trying

1179
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: to cry and said do you think do you think

1180
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: they'll solve it? And I said, I'm one hundred percent

1181
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: certain will solve it. And he should have seen the

1182
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: look on his face. I still remember that, and that

1183
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: still brings a smile to my face that, yeah, he

1184
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: knew that at that point in time, he was stuffed

1185
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: and we didn't have enough to arrest him at that stage,

1186
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: but we certainly we fired the first shot and the

1187
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: look on his face was, Yeah, something I'll never forget.

1188
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, as you're talking, so we've mentioned a family lais

1189
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 3: and officer. I think even in the police, certainly in

1190
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,959
Speaker 3: the UK, people don't understand the role of the family

1191
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 3: laiser officer. They think it's some sort of pink and

1192
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 3: fluffy I'm going to it's like there for tea and

1193
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 3: sympathy type thinks it's not they're a detective, they're an investigator.

1194
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 3: And I mean in those type of investigations it comes

1195
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 3: to the fore. It's like you're putting somebody into that

1196
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 3: family situation and what you're talking about, they're looking for

1197
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 3: the clues. Picking up on what they're saying, how they're

1198
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 3: reacting is so important. And say that that they're an

1199
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 3: investigator and they're building up that picture the victim's life

1200
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 3: and they're central to that. So he is in those

1201
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 3: situations that crucial.

1202
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: They are crucial. Steven and I learned a bit because

1203
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: quite often families that you come into contact with haven't

1204
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: had dealings with police before, and it breaks my heart sometimes.

1205
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: And we have appointed family liaison.

1206
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 2: Officers as well.

1207
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: It's a it's a role that we used to do organically.

1208
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: You do it naturally, but sometimes it'd be forgotten when

1209
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 1: you get caught up in the speed of the investigation.

1210
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 1: And family spoke to me that they haven't had dealings

1211
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: with police and had my number to contact me if

1212
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: they wanted to contact me, and we're busy with the

1213
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: investigation and They contacted me months later and they were

1214
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: livid that hadn't been in contact with them. And I

1215
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: was shocked because I said, any questions, you've got, here's number,

1216
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: anytime the day or night. But they are of the

1217
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: view they are laura by any citizens, and they thought,

1218
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: we can't disrupt the detective inspector. He's busy doing work.

1219
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: We can't just phone him up. And it broke my

1220
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: heart that they felt that way. But yeah, it is

1221
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: an important role and it's not the fluffy cake eating

1222
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: type role. There's an investigative aspect to it as well.

1223
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 3: So yeah, and as well as I mean, they are

1224
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 3: so the duel roll really, so first and foremost it's

1225
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 3: about being an investigator, but they're also there for the family.

1226
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 3: So when you've lost someone through murder, certain procedures are

1227
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 3: going to have to go through the coronial procedures we

1228
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 3: have over here, So identifying the body, there'll be an inquest,

1229
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 3: releasing the body for the funeral, keeping them updated to

1230
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 3: progress the investigation. They'll be there at court with them

1231
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 3: so that they can lead, they can help them through

1232
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 3: the trial, explaining things, et cetera, so that they they

1233
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 3: they do have that it's not a counseling role, but

1234
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 3: they're they're they're almost like a crutch for the family,

1235
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 3: and that they're they're a port of call. So you're right,

1236
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 3: I mean calling the detective inspector it probably isn't something

1237
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 3: that's going to be easy to do, whereas having your

1238
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 3: family aisen off so you can just drop a WhatsApp

1239
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 3: to whatever is is a much easier way of if

1240
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 3: you've got a question, you can ask it. So as

1241
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 3: when I was one of the senior officers, I would

1242
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 3: always at a very early stage meet with the family,

1243
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 3: introduce themselves, let them know of any if they've got

1244
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 3: any questions, do you ask me? What for questions you've got,

1245
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 3: but go forward, John and Sarah, they are your poets,

1246
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 3: are contact. If you've got any questions of me, to

1247
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 3: go via them. That was an important part.

1248
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: That makes sense. Well, Steve, we could talk all day,

1249
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: day and night. We're going to take a break now

1250
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: and when we get back we're going to take the

1251
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: next step forward in terms of homicide investigation, lines of inquiry,

1252
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: interview room, time of arrest, when do you arrest someone,

1253
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: when do you move on someone, and a whole range

1254
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 1: of aspects that come out with homicide.

1255
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 2: We're back for part too shortly, all right,