1 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:07,020 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. There's 2 00:00:07,020 --> 00:00:10,170 Sean Aylmer: more pressure on company boards now than ever before. And 3 00:00:10,170 --> 00:00:13,340 Sean Aylmer: with a focus on ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) issues, the pressure is only 4 00:00:13,340 --> 00:00:16,520 Sean Aylmer: going to increase. A new report from the Governance Institute 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,380 Sean Aylmer: of Australia provides an insight into what the boards of the 6 00:00:19,380 --> 00:00:22,470 Sean Aylmer: future will look like, the challenges they'll face, what issues 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,300 Sean Aylmer: that they'll be dealing with and what skills and attributes 8 00:00:25,420 --> 00:00:28,540 Sean Aylmer: board members will need to bring with them to be successful. 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,240 Sean Aylmer: Pauline Vamos is the chair of the Governance Institute of Australia. Pauline, 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:34,210 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:34,690 --> 00:00:35,010 Pauline Vamos: Thank you. 12 00:00:35,450 --> 00:00:40,820 Sean Aylmer: Quite a comprehensive survey, 550 non- executive directors, CEOs, company secretaries, 13 00:00:40,820 --> 00:00:43,629 Sean Aylmer: and the like. More than two thirds of the respondents 14 00:00:43,630 --> 00:00:45,940 Sean Aylmer: were on a board and 40% of them were on more 15 00:00:45,940 --> 00:00:49,570 Sean Aylmer: than one. ESG issues are obviously going to be a key theme, 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,890 Sean Aylmer: which I think was 89% saying boards will need to align their 17 00:00:52,890 --> 00:00:57,910 Sean Aylmer: purpose with community values. How much has that focus on 18 00:00:58,030 --> 00:00:59,800 Sean Aylmer: ESG changed in recent years? 19 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,459 Pauline Vamos: It's been a significant change. It's been emerging, I might say, 20 00:01:04,459 --> 00:01:08,680 Pauline Vamos: as directors and chairs actually understand what ESG means. There's 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:14,900 Pauline Vamos: been so much confusion and very much ESG, it might 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,830 Pauline Vamos: limit what I can do as a company, it's aligned 23 00:01:17,830 --> 00:01:22,089 Pauline Vamos: to values rather than value. As chairs have understood that if 24 00:01:22,350 --> 00:01:27,850 Pauline Vamos: they don't manage non- financial risk, if they don't understand 25 00:01:27,900 --> 00:01:33,600 Pauline Vamos: impact on their reputation, if they don't understand their impact 26 00:01:33,650 --> 00:01:39,310 Pauline Vamos: on issues like cybersecurity, then the share value will not 27 00:01:39,310 --> 00:01:43,490 Pauline Vamos: be sustainable. Now, I must confess, I think one of 28 00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:49,250 Pauline Vamos: the reasons why ESG, particularly the (Social) conduct risk is 29 00:01:49,250 --> 00:01:52,750 Pauline Vamos: so much at the forefront is with the various Royal Commissions, 30 00:01:53,220 --> 00:01:57,100 Pauline Vamos: the Hayne Royal Commission in particular into the financial services 31 00:01:57,100 --> 00:02:04,370 Pauline Vamos: industry really brought it to a fore, but shareholder advocates 32 00:02:04,410 --> 00:02:10,030 Pauline Vamos: have been pushing for boards to understand non- financial risk 33 00:02:10,030 --> 00:02:13,139 Pauline Vamos: for quite some time. And to be honest, this is 34 00:02:13,139 --> 00:02:17,369 Pauline Vamos: just the start because when you look at financial reporting 35 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:22,070 Pauline Vamos: today and what is made public in terms of company reports, 36 00:02:22,610 --> 00:02:26,630 Pauline Vamos: there's very little in terms of measures in reporting on non- 37 00:02:26,630 --> 00:02:30,630 Pauline Vamos: financial risk. And there's been a lot of work done 38 00:02:30,630 --> 00:02:34,620 Pauline Vamos: and being done to make sure that that is treated 39 00:02:34,730 --> 00:02:39,320 Pauline Vamos: just as importantly as financial risk in the reports that go 40 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,370 Pauline Vamos: to shareholders and other stakeholders. 41 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,220 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Nine out of 10 respondents agreed that accountability and responsibility 42 00:02:46,220 --> 00:02:50,299 Sean Aylmer: will play a greater role for a board member. That 43 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:53,169 Sean Aylmer: role of a board member certainly has changed over the 44 00:02:53,169 --> 00:02:55,799 Sean Aylmer: last decade, but it really accelerated since the Banking Royal 45 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,639 Sean Aylmer: Commission and the Laker report into Commonwealth Bank, I think. 46 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:01,510 Sean Aylmer: It just seems to be such a focus now. 47 00:03:02,050 --> 00:03:06,560 Pauline Vamos: Yes. And one of the reasons is that the regulatory 48 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,760 Pauline Vamos: oversight of boards is much heavier. The fines are more 49 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,389 Pauline Vamos: real, the criminal liability, and it really started off with 50 00:03:16,389 --> 00:03:21,430 Pauline Vamos: occupational health and safety. Board members have been jailed, so 51 00:03:21,430 --> 00:03:26,040 Pauline Vamos: more and more scattered throughout industries and pieces of regulation 52 00:03:26,330 --> 00:03:31,870 Pauline Vamos: are personal liability provisions on directors. And the latest is 53 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,200 Pauline Vamos: around respect at work, where if there is sexual harassment, 54 00:03:36,670 --> 00:03:42,210 Pauline Vamos: then current drafting would put a personal liability on board 55 00:03:42,210 --> 00:03:45,740 Pauline Vamos: members in terms of that. When there was a threat of 56 00:03:45,740 --> 00:03:49,520 Pauline Vamos: going to jail, it does tend to focus the mind 57 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:49,800 Pauline Vamos: a bit. 58 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:49,850 Sean Aylmer: No doubt. 59 00:03:50,930 --> 00:03:53,990 Pauline Vamos: But that's not just one of the reasons, the big one is 60 00:03:54,510 --> 00:04:00,700 Pauline Vamos: the external threats to any organisation today are much bigger and 61 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:06,290 Pauline Vamos: much more complicated than they were before. Previously you could 62 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,930 Pauline Vamos: fly into a board meeting, I call these seagull boards, 63 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:14,520 Pauline Vamos: look at the report, have a nice lunch and fly 64 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,750 Pauline Vamos: out again. Now the time it takes to really analyse, 65 00:04:20,390 --> 00:04:23,550 Pauline Vamos: what is the threat to my organisation in terms of 66 00:04:23,550 --> 00:04:27,010 Pauline Vamos: climate risk, not only directly if I'm in oil and gas 67 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,710 Pauline Vamos: but we know that climate change and climate risk will 68 00:04:30,710 --> 00:04:35,130 Pauline Vamos: substantially change economies in Australia and the world. So how 69 00:04:35,130 --> 00:04:37,159 Pauline Vamos: are we going to adapt to that? What are the risks? 70 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:43,080 Pauline Vamos: And more importantly, what are the opportunities? Cyber security, ransomware 71 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:49,210 Pauline Vamos: incredibly complex, incredibly dangerous, and a devastating effect on any 72 00:04:49,210 --> 00:04:54,839 Pauline Vamos: organisation and directors are responsible for this. And then third, 73 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,779 Pauline Vamos: but not finally, the S (Social) really in the ESG is 74 00:04:58,779 --> 00:05:04,790 Pauline Vamos: the whole area of strategic human capital management. We talked 75 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:10,020 Pauline Vamos: about in the media about mass resignations, we know that 76 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:14,349 Pauline Vamos: if a company makes 3000 people redundant, it's going to 77 00:05:14,350 --> 00:05:17,630 Pauline Vamos: be all over the press and it's going to impact 78 00:05:17,630 --> 00:05:24,130 Pauline Vamos: on the share value. Managing human capital, making sure they 79 00:05:24,130 --> 00:05:28,669 Pauline Vamos: are trained and you can adapt to the different needs 80 00:05:28,670 --> 00:05:33,849 Pauline Vamos: of the organisation is another complex area that boards have 81 00:05:33,850 --> 00:05:37,960 Pauline Vamos: to think about and oversight and I might just add 82 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,630 Pauline Vamos: in their conduct culture. For the first time, I think 83 00:05:42,630 --> 00:05:44,870 Pauline Vamos: the last few years, and it came under the Commonwealth 84 00:05:44,870 --> 00:05:48,850 Pauline Vamos: Bank reviews, came out of the Hayne Royal Commission, a clear obligation 85 00:05:48,850 --> 00:05:52,739 Pauline Vamos: on boards to oversight culture. Culture is how we do 86 00:05:52,740 --> 00:05:56,950 Pauline Vamos: things around here, conduct culture is how we make those 87 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,910 Pauline Vamos: ethical decisions and those balances when we're making business decisions. 88 00:06:02,420 --> 00:06:06,130 Pauline Vamos: And that's why that accountability is there. When you are 89 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,130 Pauline Vamos: tasked with the oversight and responsibility of people's behaviour in 90 00:06:11,130 --> 00:06:14,730 Pauline Vamos: your organisation, the information you need at board level is 91 00:06:14,730 --> 00:06:15,420 Pauline Vamos: very different. 92 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:20,920 Sean Aylmer: It begs the question, why become a board member? Because I think 93 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,529 Sean Aylmer: a few years ago the idea of sitting on a 94 00:06:23,620 --> 00:06:26,500 Sean Aylmer: top 200 board or even a top 20 board was 95 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,589 Sean Aylmer: glamorous, I'm not so sure now. 96 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,710 Pauline Vamos: It's hard work. And that's the other big change, you have 97 00:06:32,710 --> 00:06:36,310 Pauline Vamos: a lot of meetings, what I call, not board meetings 98 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:39,950 Pauline Vamos: but meetings of the boards, meeting with management in between meetings. 99 00:06:40,620 --> 00:06:43,870 Pauline Vamos: It is a very different role and you've got to 100 00:06:43,870 --> 00:06:47,719 Pauline Vamos: be passionate about leadership, but more importantly, which I think 101 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,430 Pauline Vamos: is another big change is you've got to be passionate 102 00:06:50,430 --> 00:06:53,589 Pauline Vamos: about the business. I think 20 years ago, you could 103 00:06:53,589 --> 00:06:56,650 Pauline Vamos: go on a board, get paid well, but you didn't 104 00:06:56,730 --> 00:07:01,320 Pauline Vamos: actually need to know about the business because you were 105 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,420 Pauline Vamos: there often as a name or you were there for 106 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:09,240 Pauline Vamos: a different reason. But now you're tasked with an oversight and 107 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,140 Pauline Vamos: strategic function, which means you need to know the external environment, 108 00:07:14,140 --> 00:07:16,130 Pauline Vamos: but you often need to know the business and the 109 00:07:16,130 --> 00:07:20,840 Pauline Vamos: internal environment. And that's where having that diversity on boards 110 00:07:21,170 --> 00:07:25,000 Pauline Vamos: is very important. When people are looking at going on a board, 111 00:07:25,550 --> 00:07:29,530 Pauline Vamos: they are interviewing the organisation just as much as they 112 00:07:29,530 --> 00:07:33,680 Pauline Vamos: are interviewing you. Being on a board can be very satisfying, 113 00:07:34,070 --> 00:07:37,970 Pauline Vamos: because now you can be a person of influence but 114 00:07:37,970 --> 00:07:41,820 Pauline Vamos: you want the right team with you. You want the diversity 115 00:07:41,820 --> 00:07:47,070 Pauline Vamos: of thought and experience around the table because you can't 116 00:07:47,070 --> 00:07:50,520 Pauline Vamos: be strong in every aspect, and that is what's important. 117 00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:55,070 Pauline Vamos: I think we're going to see automatically people on less boards, 118 00:07:55,630 --> 00:08:00,520 Pauline Vamos: we're going to see higher director fees and the concept 119 00:08:00,630 --> 00:08:05,980 Pauline Vamos: of professional director is going to become a lot more refined. 120 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,870 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Stay with me, Pauline, we'll be back in a 121 00:08:08,870 --> 00:08:09,280 Sean Aylmer: moment. 122 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,690 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Pauline Vamos, chair of the Governance Institute of 123 00:08:17,690 --> 00:08:21,840 Sean Aylmer: Australia. You mentioned earlier on things like cybersecurity playing a 124 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,830 Sean Aylmer: much bigger role, strategic human capital, are the skills that 125 00:08:25,830 --> 00:08:29,530 Sean Aylmer: a board member needs in the next 10 years different 126 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,990 Sean Aylmer: to the ones in the previous 10 years. And then 127 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:34,809 Sean Aylmer: part B of that question, does that mean we're likely 128 00:08:34,809 --> 00:08:39,020 Sean Aylmer: to see a whole different cohort of people joining boards 129 00:08:39,020 --> 00:08:41,610 Sean Aylmer: of ASX listed companies or at least, should we see a 130 00:08:41,610 --> 00:08:44,510 Sean Aylmer: whole new cohort of people joining boards of listed companies? 131 00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:48,820 Pauline Vamos: As the report said, one of the most significant skills 132 00:08:49,309 --> 00:08:57,020 Pauline Vamos: a director will need is strategic skills. Strategic skills are 133 00:08:57,020 --> 00:09:01,410 Pauline Vamos: not just the process of strategy, strategic skills are really 134 00:09:01,410 --> 00:09:07,120 Pauline Vamos: the ability to understand where the opportunities are and where 135 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,840 Pauline Vamos: the risks are both internally and externally in order to 136 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:17,660 Pauline Vamos: ensure that the business is sustainable. That is interrogation skills, 137 00:09:17,660 --> 00:09:22,920 Pauline Vamos: that is analytical skills, but it's also deep thinking and 138 00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:27,300 Pauline Vamos: high level skills. And this is the hard one to 139 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:33,610 Pauline Vamos: teach, I think we are going to see a change in directors 140 00:09:33,670 --> 00:09:38,420 Pauline Vamos: as they become more educated. And it's not just about 141 00:09:38,420 --> 00:09:43,339 Pauline Vamos: doing a course, it's about doing the learning, but also 142 00:09:43,340 --> 00:09:47,910 Pauline Vamos: the type of experience. So we will start to see board members 143 00:09:47,910 --> 00:09:51,949 Pauline Vamos: with more softer skills because of the human capital side, 144 00:09:52,250 --> 00:09:56,470 Pauline Vamos: we'll start to see board members with deep understanding of research. 145 00:09:57,170 --> 00:10:02,429 Pauline Vamos: The regulatory side will still be there, but I think we will 146 00:10:02,429 --> 00:10:08,610 Pauline Vamos: see in some cases, larger boards and certainly more diverse 147 00:10:08,610 --> 00:10:13,949 Pauline Vamos: because one director cannot have all the skills you need. 148 00:10:15,059 --> 00:10:17,210 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Talking about diversity and gender is the obvious one, 149 00:10:17,210 --> 00:10:20,500 Sean Aylmer: I think you wrote about a third of board directors in are women, that's 150 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,819 Sean Aylmer: a lot better than 10 years ago, though given pretty 151 00:10:23,820 --> 00:10:27,620 Sean Aylmer: much population split 50/ 50, we're obviously not there yet. But 152 00:10:27,620 --> 00:10:32,240 Sean Aylmer: then also ethnicity and all sorts of diverse age and 153 00:10:32,610 --> 00:10:37,370 Sean Aylmer: religion and those things. How do we get boards more 154 00:10:37,370 --> 00:10:39,219 Sean Aylmer: diverse? And let's start with women. 155 00:10:39,929 --> 00:10:42,890 Pauline Vamos: There's a number of ways you can do this. First 156 00:10:42,890 --> 00:10:47,740 Pauline Vamos: of all, the analysis of the skills and experience you 157 00:10:47,740 --> 00:10:50,600 Pauline Vamos: need on the board, I think is always under done, 158 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:59,809 Pauline Vamos: taking that process very, very seriously. Once you've identified the gaps, 159 00:11:00,330 --> 00:11:04,370 Pauline Vamos: then you have to instigate a process where it's not 160 00:11:04,370 --> 00:11:09,070 Pauline Vamos: tapping somebody on the shoulder, but actually opening up the 161 00:11:09,070 --> 00:11:14,979 Pauline Vamos: process publicly and into various sectors, into the digital sector, 162 00:11:14,980 --> 00:11:18,640 Pauline Vamos: into the health sector because people with certain skills can 163 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,130 Pauline Vamos: bring a richness to the board that you don't have. 164 00:11:22,390 --> 00:11:26,290 Pauline Vamos: Quotas are another way, which I think will gain traction 165 00:11:26,290 --> 00:11:31,170 Pauline Vamos: because shareholders are now getting very impatient but it's also 166 00:11:31,170 --> 00:11:35,310 Pauline Vamos: about removing some of the bias in the interview process. 167 00:11:35,830 --> 00:11:39,339 Pauline Vamos: It's about putting all those levers in place. You need 168 00:11:39,340 --> 00:11:43,300 Pauline Vamos: to be careful. Just because somebody has a certain ethnicity, 169 00:11:43,890 --> 00:11:47,270 Pauline Vamos: that's not enough, they must have the skills or the 170 00:11:47,270 --> 00:11:51,220 Pauline Vamos: emerging skills, but it's about broadening the skills and the 171 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:55,320 Pauline Vamos: lenses on the board. And once you start doing that, 172 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,000 Pauline Vamos: then you'll automatically start to get diversity. 173 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:03,449 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Telstra has a very young board director, I suppose. 174 00:12:03,450 --> 00:12:07,380 Sean Aylmer: I'm trying to say experience must matter to some extent. 175 00:12:07,380 --> 00:12:11,319 Sean Aylmer: And whilst I appreciate particularly telco needing digital skills in, 176 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,780 Sean Aylmer: say generally a 30 something year old is probably going 177 00:12:13,780 --> 00:12:16,490 Sean Aylmer: to have a better skill than me let alone a 178 00:12:16,570 --> 00:12:20,540 Sean Aylmer: 70 something year old perhaps. In my mind, I wrestle 179 00:12:20,540 --> 00:12:23,130 Sean Aylmer: with the concept of skill versus experience. 180 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,270 Pauline Vamos: It's a balancing act, isn't it? Again, even at 30, 181 00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:31,610 Pauline Vamos: you could have been working for well over 10 years. 182 00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:35,460 Pauline Vamos: So you're bringing a certain level of experience. I think 183 00:12:35,460 --> 00:12:39,990 Pauline Vamos: the challenge is more the schools around governance. I'm on 184 00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:41,630 Pauline Vamos: a number of boards and have been on a number 185 00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:47,010 Pauline Vamos: of boards and you can have highly skilled people on 186 00:12:47,010 --> 00:12:53,110 Pauline Vamos: the board, including younger, skilled people but it doesn't mean 187 00:12:53,110 --> 00:12:55,700 Pauline Vamos: they're any good at being a board member. And this 188 00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:59,130 Pauline Vamos: is where the training about being a good board member, 189 00:12:59,929 --> 00:13:04,190 Pauline Vamos: working in a team because you are in the team and this 190 00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:08,610 Pauline Vamos: is where chairs come in. I chair three boards because 191 00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:12,890 Pauline Vamos: a lot of my experience is bringing stakeholders and people 192 00:13:12,890 --> 00:13:17,610 Pauline Vamos: together so that they can all contribute. That's the more 193 00:13:17,610 --> 00:13:23,170 Pauline Vamos: difficult one, ensuring people stay at the appropriate level and 194 00:13:23,420 --> 00:13:28,170 Pauline Vamos: exercise their duties, which can be taught, and it can 195 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:28,839 Pauline Vamos: be coached. 196 00:13:29,250 --> 00:13:31,750 Sean Aylmer: Then the obvious question is how many boards is too many? 197 00:13:32,770 --> 00:13:39,020 Pauline Vamos: Well, if you've got a company in deep, deep trouble, one board is 198 00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:40,001 Pauline Vamos: enough because ... 199 00:13:40,002 --> 00:13:39,849 Sean Aylmer: One board might be too many if it's in deep enough trouble. 200 00:13:42,340 --> 00:13:45,320 Pauline Vamos: Exactly. You might have to be in there every day, 201 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,849 Pauline Vamos: sorting out a mess. The report said that 54% think 202 00:13:49,890 --> 00:13:53,080 Pauline Vamos: three to four board positions should be a limit. Certainly, 203 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,469 Pauline Vamos: if you are in a board in the top 200, 204 00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:59,150 Pauline Vamos: that is more than enough. You've got to leave bandwidth 205 00:13:59,780 --> 00:14:03,050 Pauline Vamos: between meetings but also which is often not part of 206 00:14:03,050 --> 00:14:08,089 Pauline Vamos: the discussion committees. There's the audit and risk committees, there's the governance committees, 207 00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:13,210 Pauline Vamos: there's the rem and noms (remuneration and nomination) committees. And committees can take a lot 208 00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:17,840 Pauline Vamos: of work, 34% thought that two to three should be 209 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,700 Pauline Vamos: the limit, and again, big boards, lots of committees, complex structures, 210 00:14:22,820 --> 00:14:27,050 Pauline Vamos: probably right. And then 9% thought five or more. You 211 00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:29,320 Pauline Vamos: might have a couple of small not- for- profits, which 212 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,150 Pauline Vamos: are fairly easy or small commercial, which are fairly easy. 213 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,140 Pauline Vamos: So it depends on the size, the scale, the complexity, 214 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,500 Pauline Vamos: but also what stage the business is at. If you've 215 00:14:42,510 --> 00:14:45,350 Pauline Vamos: got a strategy that you know can get you there for the 216 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:48,979 Pauline Vamos: next three years, then your job is to oversight. But 217 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:52,520 Pauline Vamos: if you are in a dynamic environment where the environment is changing, 218 00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:57,640 Pauline Vamos: where because of technological disruption, your competition is changing, they're 219 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,680 Pauline Vamos: popping out of the woodwork, then you are going to 220 00:15:00,910 --> 00:15:04,930 Pauline Vamos: have to talk strategy every month and work with management, 221 00:15:04,930 --> 00:15:09,020 Pauline Vamos: which is one of the big changes as well. From 222 00:15:09,020 --> 00:15:13,580 Pauline Vamos: the Governance Institute's viewpoint, what we say to professionals is, " 223 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:18,650 Pauline Vamos: You've got to really think about your time ability." And 224 00:15:18,650 --> 00:15:21,010 Pauline Vamos: I have this discussion with a lot of my board members, 225 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,410 Pauline Vamos: their board positions might not be in conflict but there's 226 00:15:25,410 --> 00:15:29,310 Pauline Vamos: a conflict of time. And that can be very difficult. 227 00:15:29,310 --> 00:15:31,980 Sean Aylmer: Pauline, I think you have just destroyed any aspiration I 228 00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:33,840 Sean Aylmer: ever had to sit on a board of anything. 229 00:15:34,350 --> 00:15:37,510 Pauline Vamos: I think it is a noble cause. If you're passionate 230 00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:41,750 Pauline Vamos: about the business, you are protecting shareholders, you are protecting shareholders. You are protecting investors. 231 00:15:42,491 --> 00:15:45,560 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. We haven't discussed that. It's really, really important that 232 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,470 Sean Aylmer: there are directors because it's actually my money and my 233 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:51,170 Sean Aylmer: super fund that's going into some of these big companies. And the directors are 234 00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:53,490 Sean Aylmer: looking after that. Really, really critical. 235 00:15:53,490 --> 00:15:58,100 Pauline Vamos: It is really important. As a super fund, as a 236 00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:02,450 Pauline Vamos: trustee, you are holding those companies to account, you are 237 00:16:03,090 --> 00:16:08,170 Pauline Vamos: interrogating them, you're interrogating all aspects of how they're managing non- 238 00:16:08,170 --> 00:16:13,370 Pauline Vamos: financial risks. It is a noble profession but it must 239 00:16:13,370 --> 00:16:19,150 Pauline Vamos: be purposeful, in my view. It is a deliberate vocation, 240 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,940 Pauline Vamos: it's a deliberate career. It shouldn't be accidental and maybe 241 00:16:23,940 --> 00:16:27,730 Pauline Vamos: that's a bit controversial but you've got to approach it 242 00:16:27,730 --> 00:16:30,770 Pauline Vamos: like you do any career. It's an important one and 243 00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:33,770 Pauline Vamos: the consequences of not doing a property can be devastating. 244 00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:36,130 Sean Aylmer: Pauline, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 245 00:16:36,510 --> 00:16:37,270 Pauline Vamos: Pleasure. Thank you. 246 00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:40,830 Sean Aylmer: That was Pauline Vamos, chair of the Governance Institute of 247 00:16:40,830 --> 00:16:44,100 Sean Aylmer: Australia. This is a Fear and Greed daily interview. Join me every 248 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:46,590 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast with all 249 00:16:46,590 --> 00:16:48,980 Sean Aylmer: the business news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer, 250 00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:49,900 Sean Aylmer: enjoy your day.