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Speaker 1: Today is the Michael Jackson death of my generation. It

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Speaker 1: is so for everyone listening that may not know he

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Speaker 1: will know. Liam Payne from One Direction, the band that

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Speaker 1: literally formed my love for the Internet and formed my business.

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Speaker 1: He died today. And I did cancel the podcast that

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Speaker 1: I was meant to go on before this because I

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Speaker 1: was like, no, I need to sit and think and

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Speaker 1: write something for the fans, because like, I'm not here

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Speaker 1: to report the news about this. Other people are doing

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Speaker 1: the news. I'm here to tell the fans if you're

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Speaker 1: feeling shit, that's fine, because this is very weird for

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Speaker 1: all of us. I remember watching my parents when Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson died and seeing it on TV, seeing all the

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Speaker 1: tributes and stuff, and being like, what's going to happen

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Speaker 1: when the first member of like the Jonas Brothers died

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Speaker 1: in One Direction. Today it happened, and it's been very strange.

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Speaker 1: My quest is to give people the news without giving

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Speaker 1: them the blues. And it's like her life's work to

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Speaker 1: be like, hey, I woke up this morning school shooting

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Speaker 1: in America. But then also, what's something that I can

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Speaker 1: like tell you at the very end of the newsletter

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Speaker 1: that's going to mean that you're not feeling like total

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Speaker 1: shit for the rest of your day, because like, that's

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Speaker 1: my job is to inform you but not make you

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Speaker 1: feel totally depressed. Otherwise I'd just be like Mark Zacherbu

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Speaker 1: or you know, all those people that are making you

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Speaker 1: feel depressed. And so I think I can do my

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Speaker 1: job because I feel like I'm doing something and then

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Speaker 1: I'm giving people bad news. But I'm also like, at

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Speaker 1: the end of all my newsletters is just like love

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Speaker 1: you the most xxx, like it should always, and like

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Speaker 1: please reply if you're feeling shit or if you're feeling good,

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Speaker 1: if you've got anything to say, Like, because I'm in

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Speaker 1: this position of power, I just want people to not

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Speaker 1: feel totally shit when they read the news all the time.

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Speaker 1: The Internet is a lot of people's third space.

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Speaker 2: So it's supposed to be home, work, and then.

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Speaker 1: A special place for you where you feel connected to people.

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Speaker 2: Like your friend's house or the power, your dog or yeah,

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Speaker 2: yeah whatever.

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Speaker 1: The loss of that and the Internet filling that gap

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Speaker 1: is quite crazy. But I also see why people form

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Speaker 1: parasocial relationships with people because they just need like this

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Speaker 1: is their third space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, parasocial relationship. Those friends aren't going to help you

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Speaker 2: move a couch.

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Speaker 1: No, they're not going to be there if you get

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Speaker 1: locked out of your house, but they will be there

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Speaker 1: to send you like that niche. This made me think

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Speaker 1: of your message. So you get different types of love

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Speaker 1: from them and you can talk to them without like

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Speaker 1: Kevin get dressed.

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Speaker 2: That is Lucy Blackiston, founder of the phenomenally successful news

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Speaker 2: outlet Shit you should care about I watching Ginsberg. Welcome

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Speaker 2: to the show. This is better than yesterday, making it

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Speaker 2: better every episode since twenty thirteen. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 2: being here. Thanks for getting around the sub stack. More

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Speaker 2: and more is going up there. If you are a subscriber,

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Speaker 2: it means a lot that You've got my back on

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Speaker 2: this because this is this is my full time job.

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Speaker 2: This is the regular work that I've got and I

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Speaker 2: really love doing it. I'm grateful for the support you

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Speaker 2: give me for ever a decade now. And yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: grateful we can keep doing this together. It's pretty pretty great.

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Speaker 2: I have some live gigs to tell you about, but

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Speaker 2: don't call it a comeback. I've been here for years.

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Speaker 2: This Saturday at Hotel Harry in Sydney, I am making

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Speaker 2: a long away to return to the DJ Dex. I'm

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Speaker 2: very excited about that. It's a Halloween party, should behave

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Speaker 2: so fun. I'm going to be up there in the

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Speaker 2: booth alongside the great and powerful Danny Clayton. It's going

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Speaker 2: to be super fun. On the actual night of Halloween,

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Speaker 2: on the thirty first, I'm part of a very spooky

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Speaker 2: lineup doing a show at the Factory Theater. I'm one

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Speaker 2: of many people on there. There is a chance though,

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Speaker 2: I might try stand up for the first time speaking

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Speaker 2: of things that are scary, but who knows that might happen.

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Speaker 2: But I'll definitely be there. I'll definitely be there. But

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Speaker 2: then on the sixth of November Wednesday, the sixth of November,

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Speaker 2: story Club returns. I am so excited to be a

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Speaker 2: part of story Club once again, alongside Zoet and Lodge.

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Speaker 2: She and I are hosting the night and our guests

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Speaker 2: include Larry Im, Jordan Raskoppolis, the Brilliant Journalist, Kate mcclimont,

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Speaker 2: and Kate Harris. The theme is going back for Seconds.

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Speaker 2: If you've ever been a story Club before, you know

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Speaker 2: it's a fantastic night. The links in my show notes.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to see you at any of those shows.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you about the guest. I'll be back

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Speaker 2: after the break. Lucy Blakiston is here. She is the

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Speaker 2: founder of the Monster newsletter s you should care about.

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Speaker 2: There's millions of people that get around her. It's pretty special. Now.

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Speaker 2: Anyone that says young people they're not interested in the news,

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Speaker 2: well they didn't see what Lucy saw actually, and I

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Speaker 2: saw something quite similar when I wanted to make that

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Speaker 2: news show at the start of the Comedy Festival. The

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Speaker 2: news as we know it as a product is exclusionary

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Speaker 2: by design. More and more, it's almost deliberately created to

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Speaker 2: make us scared, make us powerless, to make us hopeless.

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Speaker 2: I don't want a part of that. So if I'm young,

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Speaker 2: full of hope, how do they do it? Like coming

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Speaker 2: up the cruel scam targeting Australian podcast listeners, how you

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Speaker 2: can protect yourself and your vulnerable children next? I mean,

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Speaker 2: all that does is make us afraid, and then we

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Speaker 2: keep watching hoping to find a solution. But thankfully Lucy

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Speaker 2: stepped in with a rather excellent solution. You should care

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Speaker 2: about is the newsletter. It doesn't skimp on details, but

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Speaker 2: very much explores issues in a way that's authentic, that's relatable,

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Speaker 2: and in turn, those things help us make better choices

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Speaker 2: in our day to day lives. I'll put a link

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Speaker 2: to it in the show notes along with her brand

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Speaker 2: new book. It's called Make It Make Sense. I'm glad

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Speaker 2: you made it. This show we recorded on the day

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Speaker 2: that Liam Payne passed away, so there's some conversation around that.

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Speaker 2: Just letting you know, enjoy this chat with Lucy. She's

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Speaker 2: meant thank you for coming. Welcome today. As you know,

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Speaker 2: I've got i'd be podcasting is twenty thirteen, right, still

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Speaker 2: download shit from a decade ago. Wow, So it's interesting

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Speaker 2: to listen sometimes to hear that little time capsule, digital

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Speaker 2: footprint of what happened on the day. Oh and I

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Speaker 2: texted you your publicist this morning. Just double check that

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Speaker 2: you're called to come to day because today is a

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Speaker 2: day that there's no doubt we will go. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: I remember when that happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, today is the Michael Jackson death of my generation.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: And I so for everyone listening that may not know,

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Speaker 1: but you will know Liam Payne from One Direction, the

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Speaker 1: band that literally formed my love for the Internet and

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Speaker 1: formed my business. He died today and I did cancel

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Speaker 1: the podcast that I was meant to go on before

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Speaker 1: this because I was like, no, I need to sit

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Speaker 1: and think and write something for the fans, because like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not here to report the news about this. Other

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Speaker 1: people are doing the news. I'm here to tell the

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Speaker 1: fans if you're feeling shit, that's fine, because this is

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Speaker 1: very weird all of us. I remember watching my parents

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Speaker 1: when Michael Jackson died and seeing it on TV, seeing

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Speaker 1: all the tributes and stuff and being like, what's going

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Speaker 1: to happen when the first member of like the Jonas

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Speaker 1: Brothers died in one direction. Today it happened, and it's

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Speaker 1: been very strange.

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Speaker 2: Very very strange, the it You know, when Michael Jackson died,

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Speaker 2: A lot of people don't remember. This also the day

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Speaker 2: that Sarah Fawcett died.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know who that is exactly. Oh, it's terrible.

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Speaker 2: She was a Charlie's Angel.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: She was the one with the flex on the poster

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Speaker 2: on a skateboard. She died on the same day. Had

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Speaker 2: a very difficult time, Parah, she had a very difficult time.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, she died on the same day. But it

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Speaker 2: is absolutely that I was doing a thing earlier. Today,

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Speaker 2: I was at the gym. I've got a call saying,

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Speaker 2: can you do a cross back to that. I'm not

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Speaker 2: a talking head pundit guy, I never have been, so like,

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Speaker 2: you want me to comment on on Liam Paie, but

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Speaker 2: I guess, you know, let's speak a lot about mental health.

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Speaker 2: And I've had a background in the music industry. It's like, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: as long as we can do it this way. And

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Speaker 2: I managed to get work Trojan Horse a few things.

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Speaker 2: But I was just trying to say, like, you know, gee,

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Speaker 2: who's our elder she's twenty. I got her into the

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Speaker 2: Arias when they were performing that. Yeah, I was hosting

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Speaker 2: the show, and you know they're a massive band for her. Yes,

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Speaker 2: mates of mine, they're kids who are nineteen twenty is crying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's literally I mean, it's such a cringe cliche,

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Speaker 1: but it is our beatles, it actually is. And when

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Speaker 1: I wrote about it, I've had so many responses just

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Speaker 1: being like this feels like intangible grief, Like it's not

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Speaker 1: my grief, but I did grow up with these people

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Speaker 1: in a real parasocial way, and I'm like, yeah, babe,

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Speaker 1: this is yours. Like no one tells you how to

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Speaker 1: deal with this. So however you're feeling is fine, because

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Speaker 1: I feel strange about it.

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Speaker 2: It's great that you did that rough though, because the

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Speaker 2: speculation I'm worried about people are just going to go

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Speaker 2: down rabbit holes.

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Speaker 1: I have already seen on Twitter, which terrible place to be.

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Speaker 2: What are you doing there? It's truck stop twelve.

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Speaker 1: I know it. But I just like to be on

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Speaker 1: the poles of what even the strange thinkers are thinking,

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Speaker 1: because we all think differently, and sometimes it's just good

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Speaker 1: to be like, oh, okay, this is actually bubbling away.

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Speaker 1: I should be aware of this because it's my job

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Speaker 1: to dooms grow now. But it's okay because I'm like

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Speaker 1: a really positive person.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 1: I can handle it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the misinformation that comes at any news story.

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Speaker 2: Is but if I.

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Speaker 1: Want to combat it, I have to see it, you know. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: Why have I chosen this job for myself? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: You have? And it's look, it's working out, and.

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Speaker 1: It's working out and I love it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. It is the misinformation that sort

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Speaker 2: of follows any news story. Oh my god, anything it's

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Speaker 2: a number one, it's not real and be. There's no question,

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Speaker 2: not many people, not that many people actually give a

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Speaker 2: fuck about it to write that kind of stuff. It

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Speaker 2: is all amplify bots and don't even worry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's its own, like self fulfilling thing.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe I'm part of the problem because I see

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Speaker 1: it and maybe not that many people actually believe it,

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Speaker 1: and then I go and I like debunk it, which

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Speaker 1: actually brings the misinformation into more of the mainstream. Let

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Speaker 1: me be self aware.

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Speaker 2: The pre bunking is good. I don't know what kind

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Speaker 2: of conspiracy theory is going to come out of this.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I've already seen some terrible ones that I don't

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Speaker 1: even want to give ear time to because of what

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Speaker 1: we were just talking about. But I'm like, okay, can

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Speaker 1: we all just have like twenty four hours we were

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Speaker 1: normal about this and everyone just.

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Speaker 2: As sad our ability to be with ambivalence has gone

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Speaker 2: has vanished. Yeah, right, we need certainty and we need

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Speaker 2: it now. Yes, and even if it's completely Bonker's got

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Speaker 2: no references to it, completely unresourced, completely just I heard

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Speaker 2: a thing that said it might be. At least that's something.

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Speaker 1: And everyone wants to have the first hot take on anything.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and I don't think it's our fault because

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Speaker 1: the media industry, well, the algorithms love a hot take,

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Speaker 1: and they love enragement, and enragement as engagement and blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. So everyone's like, oh my god, I want

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Speaker 1: to get so many likes by saying this insane thing

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Speaker 1: that's not true, and I'm going to get rewarded with it,

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Speaker 1: like with dopamine or with like actual traffic and then money. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: we've gone real meta on the media industry here, but

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Speaker 1: it's just like I actually wrote a chapter in the

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Speaker 1: book what you learn when you have three million followers,

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Speaker 1: and one of them is like, no one wins when

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Speaker 1: you post through it, which sounds hilarious because I've just

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Speaker 1: told you that I canceled a podcast so that I

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Speaker 1: could write about Liam Payne's death. But I also said

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Speaker 1: I wasn't writing about the news. I was writing about

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Speaker 1: the feelings. But no one does win when our initial

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Speaker 1: reaction to something huge in the world is just to

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Speaker 1: post through it. It's like, no, let's sit with it,

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Speaker 1: get the facts. Like I've seen times we're like Justin Trudeau,

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Speaker 1: the president, see the president.

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Speaker 2: And Prime Minister of Canada Prime Minister.

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister of Canada has like posted this Instagram infographic

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Speaker 1: of something that is just not true, and everyone's messaging

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Speaker 1: me being like, Lucy, why are you silent about this? Why?

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, because I've researched it and it's not right.

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Speaker 1: He's just been pressured to post it. No one wins

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Speaker 1: when the Prime minister is doing this. It's insane and

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Speaker 1: I don't know how at twenty seven, I've got my

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Speaker 1: head around that. But I'm lucky that I'm glad that

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Speaker 1: I am.

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Speaker 2: You sound like you, Yeah, you've created this life for yourself,

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Speaker 2: but you what was the first kind of moment you

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Speaker 2: realized I'm lucky. I'm kind of like this because I

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Speaker 2: would have pulled out way earlier.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you have to be twenty twenty that obviously, we

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Speaker 1: had COVID nineteen, we had a presidential election in the States,

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Speaker 1: we had the resurgence of Black Lives Matter, and like,

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Speaker 1: I just remember seeing so much ship flowing around on

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Speaker 1: the internet that just wasn't true. And I just finished

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Speaker 1: a degree in media and international relations. So it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm lucky that I've learnt this, But all these people

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Speaker 1: haven't learned this, so let me like spend I like

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Speaker 1: got made redundant for my job or whatever. So I

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Speaker 1: just sat there and like tried to make sense of

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Speaker 1: the news. And then I mean, when you're posting about

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Speaker 1: Trump or black Lives matter, this or everyone hates you,

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Speaker 1: like from all sides, everyone hates you, And I just

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Speaker 1: remember thinking, I don't know why, but like I can

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Speaker 1: deal with this, and a lot of people maybe couldn't.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's because I like the online world

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Speaker 1: feels a little bit fake to me, and my real

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Speaker 1: life world is so beautiful that I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I can handle this. Let me just keep doing it

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Speaker 1: for another what are we now, another six years or whatever?

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Speaker 2: When I sometimes I do work with people in the

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Speaker 2: public eye around communicating essentially and helping them. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've spent thirty years knowing how to two paragraphs put

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Speaker 2: it into five words and make.

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Speaker 1: People go, oh god, I could buy you.

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Speaker 2: I'm around, I need you, I need a job, and

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Speaker 2: I got no money. I tell people I'll go for equity.

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Speaker 2: I tell people it was Beyonce who said that. I believe,

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Speaker 2: And I tell people like when it comes to especially

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Speaker 2: if they've been through a kind of a bumpy cancelation moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so when you read that someone's critiquing product or performance

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Speaker 2: of yours if you're an athlete, for example, just because

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Speaker 2: someone's found ten barks, gone down to the survey and

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Speaker 2: bought a prepaiding card, jammed it into a hand me

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Speaker 2: down android with a smashed phone does not give them

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Speaker 2: the authority to comment effectively upon your work. Are they

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Speaker 2: a peer? If they're not a peer, yeah, fuck them,

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Speaker 2: Like it really doesn't matter if they don't buy your product,

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Speaker 2: that's enough. Yeah, Like you have to actually think about that,

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Speaker 2: because there's something about why these things are so effective

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Speaker 2: as we treat those words as if they're written because

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Speaker 2: everybody else on my screen I know. Yeah, so I'm

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Speaker 2: treating this validity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. But it is really hard. It is

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Speaker 1: really hard to be like, oh this person hates me, Okay,

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Speaker 1: should I hate me? Or am I fine? I'm fine?

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Speaker 1: But actually fine, I'm actually fine, Like I'm fine. And

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Speaker 1: then sometimes you do make mistakes. But I always talk

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Speaker 1: about how I love a low stakes era, like I

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Speaker 1: love making spelling mistakes and stuff because it just reminds

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Speaker 1: people like, oh, that's actually just one human behind to

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Speaker 1: this account or behind the newsletter or whatever. Like, she's

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Speaker 1: not a corporation, she's very normal, And so I like

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Speaker 1: famously love a low stakes era.

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Speaker 2: So much in this Sometimes I will if someone's being

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Speaker 2: an asshole older liberately, you know, write something along the

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Speaker 2: lines of, that's just your opinion, apostrophe.

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Speaker 1: I just to fuck with it.

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Speaker 2: It's fun, like deliberately start talking about recipes or whatever,

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Speaker 2: just to like. The majesty of the success of what

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Speaker 2: you've built is a testament in contradiction to the idea

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Speaker 2: that young people will give a shied. Young people absolutely

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Speaker 2: give a shied. The news. The product of the news

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Speaker 2: has shifted so much in my lifetime.

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Speaker 1: We were just talking about how you first recorded on tape.

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Speaker 2: The news came twice a day. Once it was printed

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Speaker 2: out on the stuff called paper, which I fush would

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Speaker 2: come back, and the other was each broadcast was half

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Speaker 2: an hour long. There were four channels in Brisbane, so

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Speaker 2: there were maybe eight stories. Yeah, so that's a maximum

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Speaker 2: of thirty two. There was always overlap, so you probably

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Speaker 2: getting a total of twenty one, maybe twenty different stories

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Speaker 2: in the evening. And that was the world seems nice

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Speaker 2: and these are the decision. You then made your choices

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Speaker 2: about your life based upon that.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, it seems like a nice, simple life, except for like,

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Speaker 1: who were sitting the agenda of the news? What are

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Speaker 1: we seeing? But it seems relaxing, But that was you know,

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Speaker 1: when you were getting served.

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Speaker 2: One paper was this way, one paper was that way,

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Speaker 2: one paper was the other. So, like most people, you

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Speaker 2: want to be comfortable when you don't want to be

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Speaker 2: confronted by what you're eating. So people tend to go

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Speaker 2: for what their confirmation bias tells them to go for.

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Speaker 2: But over you know, because of the pace, it's very

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Speaker 2: difficult to fuck with people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd have to like write a letter to the

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Speaker 1: editor and then hope that it gets published. We still

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Speaker 1: have them, Like my local I live in a really

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Speaker 1: small town. There's a text talk part in the weekly

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Speaker 1: newspaper and it is the most racist and abusive. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe it gets published these like Novins, boomers texting

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Speaker 1: from their phones, Like I can't believe we have a

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Speaker 1: MOULDI name for our new library, Like I don't understand

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Speaker 1: what it means, Like I can't believe it still exists,

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Speaker 1: But it is the aversion of the comment section, the

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Speaker 1: local text talk. It's crazy. Sometimes I text and like

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Speaker 1: random funny things just to like fuck with them, Like

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Speaker 1: I text about like a cat that was terrorizing my

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Speaker 1: cat even though it didn't exist, just to like see

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Speaker 1: if they confirm or confirm or corroborate any texts.

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Speaker 2: They don't us as a product like anything else, And

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Speaker 2: it is the often one of the cornerstones of any

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Speaker 2: kind of broadcasts. Yeah network, whether it be radio, television

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Speaker 2: or any kind of Internet kind of platform. Yeah, what

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Speaker 2: how was the news as it existed a product now failing?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's so fractured that everyone this is like a

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Speaker 1: good and a bad thing. Everyone is getting like their

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Speaker 1: own personal news broadcast through their algorithms. And it's amazing

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Speaker 1: because you can choose what you want to follow and

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Speaker 1: what you want to hear. But it's also terrible because

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Speaker 1: you're only hearing what you want to hear, Like you're

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Speaker 1: talking about confirmation bias before, and it's genuinely like, that's

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Speaker 1: why you see these people on Facebook starting to really

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Speaker 1: believe the Earth is flat or whatever, because they are

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Speaker 1: connecting all the dots that their algorithms are showing them

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Speaker 1: and they're like how does everyone else not see this?

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Speaker 1: So it's failing because okay, one, young people don't watch TV,

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Speaker 1: so I mean we watch like streaming stuff, but we

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Speaker 1: don't sit down at six pm and like all get

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Speaker 1: the same information and then make our minds up. We

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Speaker 1: all scroll on our phone and see like either totally

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Speaker 1: false information or just like one side of every story.

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Speaker 1: And it's probably also failing because everyone can comment on everything,

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Speaker 1: so it makes people scared to actually say the brave

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Speaker 1: thing and the right thing, like you, So many things

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Speaker 1: have multiple different sides to them and so much history behind.

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Speaker 2: Them X Y Z.

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Speaker 1: And if you're scared of constantly getting it wrong, then

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Speaker 1: you'll never say anything important. And then wheneveryone can tell

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Speaker 1: you all the time, the feedback loop, the feedback loops. Now,

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Speaker 1: I was going to say it's probably not failing in

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Speaker 1: some places, but then I think about America and I'm like, no, Actually,

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Speaker 1: if they are.

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Speaker 2: Like, was the multimillion dollar, billion dollar businesses built upon

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Speaker 2: exploiting the negativity bos that we all have in our brain? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know coming up how authors from New

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Speaker 2: Zealand they are a danger from tap order you protect yourself. Next,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know about this threat until a second ago.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm watching an ad for some shit I don't

395
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Speaker 2: want to buy. No, maybe I do need that VACU

396
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 2: clear to hang on. Now there's only ten left far.

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Speaker 2: They tell me about this thing that's threatening me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Or like on social media, it's like

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Speaker 1: you see, Okay, my cousin's wedding, a dog, a country,

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Speaker 1: and like the biggest crisis we've ever seen in the world,

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Speaker 1: someone's boyfriend, and then like the environments. It's like we're

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Speaker 1: giving all these things our same amount of attention and

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Speaker 1: some of them deserve more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The one that we probably spen the most attention on

406
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Speaker 1: was like the wedding dress and zooming in on that

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Speaker 1: instead of like the crisis. It's just it's crazy, and

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Speaker 1: it's also funny that we understand exactly what's happening. We

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Speaker 1: just like still scroll, We just still do it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think any of us actually realize that, even

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Speaker 2: me making this podcast, even me putting stuff online. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I work for Zuckerberg. Same, I work for Bite Dance,

413
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Speaker 2: work for Larry and.

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Speaker 1: Sergey, and they don't pay us a dime.

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Speaker 2: Well, if they pay us a pittance compared to what

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Speaker 2: it is they are earning off the revenue that I

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Speaker 2: am generating for then I do I took my management

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Speaker 2: in house. I do deals, all right. I know how

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Speaker 2: much they are going to write in advertising against the

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Speaker 2: TV show. So I'm aware of the value I bring.

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Speaker 2: And so when I say a number, yeah, it's a

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Speaker 2: number I've thought about, and they go, oh, yeah, you

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Speaker 2: have thought about that?

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Speaker 1: What is that direct? To people that like meta?

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Speaker 2: No? No, no, I like to a network for example, to

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Speaker 2: a network for example. But so I know, like the

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Speaker 2: are going to make billions and billions of dollars. We

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Speaker 2: all work for.

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Speaker 1: Them, I know. And that's why I mean probably similar

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Speaker 1: to you at the podcast. And I write a morning

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Speaker 1: newsletter and twenty twenty I was like, I need some

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Speaker 1: platforms that I own. And at this point I think

433
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 1: I was like twenty two maybe, and I had a

434
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: great mentor thank god, that was like, you need to

435
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: diversify a little bit loose, and so then having audiences

436
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: that you actually own as the best thing of it.

437
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: Because I hate posting on Instagram now because they don't

438
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: pay me and I'm literally just feeding them. I'm just

439
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 1: giving them content. But then I love it because I

440
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: like the community on there. I mean it's a double

441
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 1: edged sword, but I agree with you, like we are

442
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: literally just lining these people's pockets and we're not good people.

443
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 2: No, And you know why I know they're not good

444
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: people because as the as the screws begin to tighten

445
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: on regulating them, suddenly we're able to bring an age verification. Yeah,

446
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: you could fucking do that in two thousand and sixteen yolds.

447
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: I know you knew how to do it.

448
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: They knew how to do it, and they're like, no.

449
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 2: Even when you knew it was harming young girls and

450
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 2: there was a slide in your deck that said so.

451
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: Yes, literally like sorry, internally you were talking about those babes.

452
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: You just decided that it was in the two hard

453
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: basket for what or making you too much money to

454
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: keep young girls on there?

455
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 2: It is interesting, like our attention is is the oil? Yeah,

456
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: it's the oil of the new world.

457
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: And what do they always say, if you're getting something

458
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: for free, you're paying for it another way or the product? Yeah,

459
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: And that is exactly how I feel every time. And

460
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: I love scrolling on TikTok, but every time I'm scrolling,

461
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, damn, I'm the product right now. But then

462
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 1: I feel good about myself because I can turn what

463
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: I've learned into like a takeaway for someone else. So

464
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, am I the product known? Lucy? You still are?

465
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 2: You still are? And you know what? You're also giving

466
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: the CCP heaps the information about what's going on.

467
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: And I'm that classic gen Z that's like, how interesting

468
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: is my information? Anyway? Like they can have whatever they want,

469
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,479
Speaker 1: whereas actually I should not be thinking now I've got

470
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: a whole business to look after. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

471
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: need to be least g.

472
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: And who knows what governments can change and who knows

473
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 2: what success to data can And literally.

474
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: Do you reckon I'd be allowed in China if I

475
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: tried to go here?

476
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: You probably Okay, what if they asked about my social

477
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: media on how much stuff you've talked about timon Square

478
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: or how often you've spoken about South China Sea and

479
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: the nine dash line and all this kind of stuff?

480
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, not that much. But also I've written about

481
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: Xinjiang quite a bit. Yeah, I don't reckon i'd be allowed.

482
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: And if they really looked I reckon, they'd be like,

483
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: she's a threat. But if they saw me drists like

484
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: this all in pain, like real looking sweet. Maybe they'd

485
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: be like, she's not a threat, but I could get.

486
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 2: We give exactly the same amount of data, probably more

487
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: to American companies. Yeah, they have little oversight, Yeah, sometimes

488
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 2: no oversight and questionable data privacy protocols, but we're just

489
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: trusting that they won't fuck us around. And you know,

490
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 2: there's a d M between someone and someone else, you know,

491
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, admitting to an affair who knows am

492
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 2: Levine and whatever, like and then like say that person

493
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 2: years from now runs for parliament, and then someone goes.

494
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't encrypted. I'm going to I just know

495
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: that it's actually freaky.

496
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 2: But that's what that's essentially what we're doing.

497
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: And me being like, I don't actually care, yeah, but

498
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: I should. Luckily I'll never be a politician.

499
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: Well, you're building a business, You'll be hiring people. You know,

500
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: you have staff, You've got IP associated with your name.

501
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: You know.

502
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: It's I love that we're like giving me life tips

503
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: right now, Hey, Lizzy, protect your data.

504
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: But it's true. It's the reason why that amazing Prince

505
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: documentary is probably never going to see the light of

506
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: day because it's nine hours long and made by the

507
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: same guy. No, but I've listened to whatever podcasts and

508
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: get my hands on to talk about from people who

509
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: have seen it. It was made by the same guy

510
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: that did OJ Versus America. It's extraordinarily well done and

511
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: interviewed seventy something people worked with him face to face,

512
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: like bodyguards, chefs, that sort of thing, ex wives, this

513
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. But the estate who get files say

514
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: on the cut, go nah, because there's stuff in there

515
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: that will essentially threaten the value of the back catalog.

516
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm staying to feel like everything is controlled, and

517
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: so you feel like everything is out of my hands.

518
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: I feel like I've got my shit so together, and

519
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: then I hear stuff like that and I'm like, no,

520
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: there are so many things we don't know. And I'm

521
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: not a conspiracy theorist whatsoever, but there are just so

522
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: many things that we don't not I'd love to know

523
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: at all, but I think we're gone saying if.

524
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: We did managing and you know, holding the keys to

525
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: an audience, the size of yours is tricky.

526
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, you're telling me.

527
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 2: How did you you know when it came to try

528
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: to find a place for all these people that you

529
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: could own and then you know, trust the people you

530
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: know that were your gateway to them. But how did

531
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: you even find a way to do that?

532
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: Well, I had a really good mentor that was like,

533
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: don't build a website. No, young people are going to

534
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: go to a website. Write a newsletter because young people

535
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: are going to grow up, They're going to get jobs

536
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: that are always going to have an email. And I

537
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I love reading newsletters. And

538
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: then I shopped around at a whole lot of this

539
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: is such boring chat For a while, I used Review,

540
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: which was this news little platform that Elon Musk that

541
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: was Twitter run. And then Elon Musk bought Twitter, and

542
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: that was my whole business was running on Review. It

543
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: was called And then when Elon bought Twitter, it just

544
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: was like I got an email that was like, hey,

545
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: this's going to be shut down in a month. So

546
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: I was like, holy fuck. Okay, And so then now

547
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: I write on substack, and I mean, best case scenario,

548
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: I'd be able to like own the whole thing, cause

549
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: subsect it still takes a cut of what you make,

550
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: but it's like this is as much as I can

551
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: own right now and slagh, I love it. I love

552
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: writing a newsletter. Do you write or read newsletters?

553
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 2: I write more and more I would essentially I would

554
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 2: write and then the essays I would deliver as a

555
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 2: monologue here on the show. Yeah, that's more and more

556
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 2: going onto online and only recently have I begun.

557
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: In view substack.

558
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 2: Only recently.

559
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: It's actually I love it. Also this again nerdy, but

560
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: it's got like in discoverability. So I like the fact

561
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: that people don't know me from Instagram. Yeah, they like

562
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: know me because they've seen my writing be sheared on substack.

563
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: And I'm like, cool, you don't know me, just as

564
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: someone that like posts news and memes, you actually like

565
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: caught I write, and that feels good to move away

566
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: from social media.

567
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: People well, sometimes they look at a meme and go, ah,

568
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: it's not fucking news. But then I also say to

569
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: a lot of my political cartoons that existed since oh

570
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: my god, since the printing press.

571
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: And like you said before about I loved when you

572
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: see this because I always say this. You're like, I

573
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: went on the news and then I trojan horsed a

574
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: few things and always and I am like, my whole

575
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: job is like fooling people into reading the news and

576
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: so like that's why, I mean, I'm a huge fan

577
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: of one direction, but I use Harry Styles a lot

578
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: to get people's attention and then read about something they

579
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: care about, and like I will trojan horse people into

580
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: reading the news by putting a meme on the first

581
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: slide and then being like swipe across and it's like, oh, yeah,

582
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: that was actually related to this news story. And so

583
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: it's just you've got to work with what you got.

584
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: And you're so right. Political cartoons have been around longer

585
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: than us, and.

586
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: They've done more to change public opinion than entire editorials

587
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: one frame. So yeah, a man can do the job

588
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: because it can get something complicated ever enough into people's.

589
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: Brain that they want to be like, so what does

590
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: it mean? Makesally mean? And it's like, oh, it was

591
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: related to this new story that's actually really interesting.

592
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: I guess maybe it's because it moves you through your

593
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: visual perceptional brain differently. It can circumvent by us sometimes, yeah,

594
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: quite quickly.

595
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: And humor, which is the other bigsest way to learn

596
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: stuff humor and next way I love young people is

597
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: because like when I was seventeen, I would have had

598
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: no idea about all this stuff going on. I would

599
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: have been like, I love one direction, and like where

600
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: am I going to go to union? What am we

601
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: going to have for dinner? Where these young people are

602
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: like Okay, I'm like so socially aware that it's probably

603
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: quite stressful for them, for one, but they're like trying

604
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: to change the world or like that was really unhappy

605
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: with the world that they got born into. And I'm

606
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: like proud of them because I was not like that

607
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and I can't believe that

608
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 1: they Well, they've given me a business, I think because

609
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: I help them understand the world. But I just think, yeah,

610
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: things like that, Yeah, they would have all known that.

611
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: We need to take a quick break from Lucy were

612
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: back in a moment. Why should someone who's eight I

613
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: had to get dragged into caring. Why should someone who's

614
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: our voting age or younger. Why should they give a

615
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: shit about what's happening in the years. Why is it

616
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: important that they engage because.

617
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: It's the future. I think it's because now more than

618
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: if it, we're really worried about whether we'll actually have

619
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: a future, and like most of us can't buy houses,

620
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: and so many people considering with them, it's okay to

621
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: bring a kid into the world. All these things that

622
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: our parents didn't really have to worry about. Like I

623
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: come from a family of four kids and my parents

624
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: I always knew that wanted a big family, And now

625
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, hold on, could I afford that? Will the

626
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: environment be good for them? Will I have a house

627
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: for them? Like, there's all these new things that our

628
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: parents didn't have to consider, so they didn't even have

629
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: to get dragged into caring. I think was out of necessity.

630
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: And also the Internet. I just think they have been

631
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: they have grown up seeing the worst of humanity on

632
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: their screens. Just can't be good for the psyche. Cannot

633
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: be good for the psyche. But at least a lot

634
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: of them have gone into like, well, let's do something

635
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: about it instead of let's get totally depressed about it,

636
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: although I'm sure a lot of them that's part of

637
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: why we're seeing such a crisis.

638
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: Basically, if you've got business models that are based upon

639
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: making you feel just a little bit shit yes about

640
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: yourself and about the world, and then oh, what do

641
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: you know, here's a little thing you can buy to

642
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: make that feeling go away for a second. Yeah, not nice.

643
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: You feel better now, you it'll be here tomorrow.

644
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: No, No, it's actually and it's so funny because yeah,

645
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: so many people like we buy these phones and watch

646
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: TV and stuff for like escapism. But it's like, actually

647
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: this is not even a hot take, but actually we

648
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: are making ourselves more and more and more aware than

649
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: we should ever be, and like we track ourselves, like

650
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: I've read about it's called luxury surveillance, right, and it's

651
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: like if you're in prison and you're wearing a ankle

652
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: monitor or if you came like you'd hate being surveiled

653
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: all the time, Like you'd hate being watched, and it's

654
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: meant to show that you're like lower in society. But

655
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: then also, if you have enough money, you can buy

656
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: a phone to like track your sleep and a watch

657
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: to track your heart, and like Spotify will track your

658
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: listening habits. And it's like, oh, okay, so we're just

659
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: surveiling ourselves in a different way. But because we have money,

660
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: we're like opting into it. We think that we're escaping

661
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: this by buying all these things. Yeah, but we're actually

662
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: just getting ourselves even more and more sucked into it.

663
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: We've seen it a few times when something bad has happened.

664
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: When I was in New York on September eleventh, they

665
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: rolled loop tape of those planes hitting the fucking towers

666
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: for like one hundred and sixteen hours, like that's all

667
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: you saw, and then just fucked up people who managed

668
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: to get out, and then photos of dead fire man

669
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: and like all kinds of shit for days, and then

670
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: that all I did was show Taliban training camps. Yeah,

671
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: all right, that and so NonStop, NonStop. As a country

672
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: of three hundred million people, so many wonderful things happened

673
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: in the world that day, but we are pushing our

674
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: nose against the billboard of doom. Can't look to the

675
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: left or right see anything else when it comes to

676
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: consuming news, especially in times, especially in times of things

677
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: are difficult, when there's some pretty heavy shit going on.

678
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: Actually there is what do you think is a way

679
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: to do it? In a healthy way to go that's

680
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: not great, that's a terrible thing. And then what happens

681
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: like just rolling through it and scratching it like xmart.

682
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I'm lucky because I wake

683
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: up and like my whole job is in the news,

684
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: but I have the privilege of feeling like I'm doing

685
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: something about it, whereas so many young people are just

686
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: waking up looking at the news and being like, what

687
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: do I do with all this information? So I say

688
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: that I'm lucky. I also built a business, so I'm

689
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: not lucky because I built this. But my quest is

690
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: to give people the news without giving them the blues.

691
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: And it's like a life's work to be like, hey,

692
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: I woke up this morning school shooting in America. But

693
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: then also, what's something that I can like tell you

694
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: at the very end of the newsletter that's going to

695
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: mean that you're not feeling like total shit for the

696
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: rest of your day, because like that's my job is

697
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: to inform you but not make you feel totally depressed.

698
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: Otherwise I'd just be like Mark Zacherber or you know

699
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: all those people that are making skill depress. And so

700
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: I think I can do my job because I feel

701
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 1: like I'm doing something and then I'm giving people bad news,

702
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: but I'm also like just trying to, as we keep

703
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: saying Trojan Horse something nice like almost like subliminally make

704
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: them feel like at the end of all my Newsletterers

705
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: is just like love you the most XIXIX like it

706
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: should always, and like please reply if you're feeling shit

707
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: or if you're feeling good, if you've got anything to say, Like,

708
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: because I'm in this position of power, I just want

709
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: people to not feel totally shit when they read the news.

710
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 2: We we don't have to feel totally shit because there's

711
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: a doesn't help anyone. There's money to be made by

712
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: making feel somewhat powerless, and which is being made by

713
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: these companies which I pay every day with my eyeballs.

714
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, you know, have a critical time.

715
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, It's it's real tricky. I had this, you know,

716
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: I have this thing at the start of every year,

717
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: I do it, you know. So next year it'll be

718
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 2: twenty five ideas for twenty twenty five, and I started

719
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: in twenty okay. So, but one of them was every

720
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: time you report a statistic, yeah you've got to report

721
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: the converse of that. Okay, So five percent of all

722
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: high school kids have tried math. Again, of high school

723
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: kids have all you know have not? Wow, that's a

724
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: probably heaps of them have you know, known about it

725
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: and deliberately gone, yeah, I'm good. That's a way better.

726
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 2: Stab Yeah, that's how fucking sales guys.

727
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the headline, like the first one is going

728
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: to make headlines and it's going to get clerks and

729
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 1: of course yeah.

730
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: Like no, no people trying is what we're looking to

731
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: go for.

732
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 1: But it's a really good tap.

733
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 2: Actually, well thank you. It's one of those things you put.

734
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: Were welcome to it. Just tag me in your substack

735
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: one of the because and I always say to people

736
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: when they get get consumed by, you know, by something

737
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: and they linger too long on a thing and then

738
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 2: all they're seeing is doth and gore. Like fourteen something

739
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: million people in Australia will drive a car home safely today,

740
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: but you'll see one car crash on the news and

741
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: your brain will go car driving is not safe. I

742
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: know it is.

743
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: Remember learning you're safe. Learning about moral panics at UNI.

744
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: What's a moral panic in recent years that people.

745
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: Won't okay, iPhones are kind of a moral panic, but

746
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: also there's actually some data that's like maybe we should

747
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: panic a little bit. Oh, I think people being like

748
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: scared of the LGBTQ community. That feels like a moral

749
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: especially in America, and people using it like or one

750
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: side particularly using it as a tactic in the election.

751
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: It's a huge moral panic. I don't know, or just like, oh, no,

752
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: I remember there was one, and this might just be

753
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: like total fake news, but there was a moral panic

754
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: about like razor blades and Halloween candy or something, and

755
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: it happens all the time. I like razor blades on

756
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: like the water slides or things like that happened.

757
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: Did a whole podcast about it. Really never happened anywhere.

758
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: I love that you did a podcast about it, and

759
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: I just think, like that was one of the most

760
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: interesting things I've learned. And like the Satanic panic was

761
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: like the first yeah, and I just became obsessed with

762
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: moral panics and like parents of kids being obsisd with

763
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: these things that aren't really true.

764
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: No.

765
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: Another one was like kids at school being furies and

766
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: like using litter boxes to pay at school, and like

767
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: it just wasn't true. All these parents are like up

768
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: in arms about it. I was like, guys, there's actually

769
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: bigger things to probably worry about, maybe like the iPhones.

770
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: But the point the point is the point is to

771
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: get you agitated, so you it's like dangling the keys

772
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 2: in front of a toddler, all right, you can't look

773
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 2: at anything else. The point is that you are agitated

774
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 2: and you can't make a decision. And because they're using

775
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: this deep, deep core value against you, you have to

776
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 2: tell me about it immediately. You have to get into action.

777
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, no need, no need for that.

778
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: No, but the Internet loves a moral panic for I

779
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: hate the Internet and I love the internet.

780
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 2: How we interact with each other, how we meet each other,

781
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: how we make friends, how we meet a lover, how

782
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: we won't meet our partner now goes through one of

783
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: those pathways that we spoke about, where we are earning

784
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: somebody money all we're pain Yeah, to do that to

785
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 2: fulfill out desire for connection.

786
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: It's really odd and like it kind of sucks, Like

787
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: you know, like my parents met in a bar and

788
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: then you'd have to ring each other on the phone,

789
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: and it was like, that's cute.

790
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 2: They're making money for to be a company.

791
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, yeah, someone's always profiting of us.

792
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: It's just like blanket that statement. I like love the

793
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: idea of online friends, but that's because I grew up

794
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: in the one direction fandom who fandoms now like one

795
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: they're really good because they're also activists like K pop

796
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: fans are like really good at raising money for causes

797
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: and things like that, but that also they can be

798
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: quite toxic. But back when I was a One Direction

799
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: fan and it was just like really fun and cute

800
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 1: and you met friends. Like no one in my small

801
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: town really loved One Direction, but so many people around

802
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: the world were like, yeah, Lucy, I see you, I

803
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: get you. And then now I have this. I feel

804
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: like I have so many online friends because they reply

805
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: to the newsletter like they're literally reading it in their

806
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: beds and then replying to me. It's like pin pals.

807
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: So I love it. That's when I think it's cute.

808
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: I think online dating sucks because actually, Belle, who I

809
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: wrote our book Make It Make Sense with, she wrote

810
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: this funny column that's like I'd like to be in love,

811
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: but instead I'm here on a date with you, and

812
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: it's all about how she was like she took she

813
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: took one for the team and just really started like

814
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: going hard on these dating apps, and she was like

815
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: the fact that I could just go to the bathroom

816
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: if I didn't like them and start swiping for someone

817
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: better is totally fucked up. And it's like what is

818
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: happening to love? And she's like a deep romantic. I'm

819
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: not I don't really care, but she's like such romantic

820
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: and she's like this is like I don't like this

821
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: guy because he's just talking to me about his ex

822
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: and we thought that we'd get along because we were

823
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: both hot and it's just like the most cooked way

824
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: to meet someone, and so like, oh, I don't know

825
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: what it's doing. I don't know what it's doing, but

826
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: it's given me a business. Like you know, I still

827
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: love the engineer. I still feel optimistic about it.

828
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: The thing that online dating stuff that's swiping in the

829
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: bathroom kind of stuff. And similarly with the algorithms, it

830
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: is we're deliberately avoiding discomfort of challenge, and life is challenged.

831
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: Life is ah, it's raining. I forgot my umbrella.

832
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: What am I going to order?

833
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: I'm hungry, I don't have any food with me. Well,

834
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to sort this out. How I'm going to

835
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: get my needs Matt. And there's growth in that, and

836
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: there's interesting in that, and there's needs to connect with

837
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: each other and solve these problems and find safety and

838
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 2: connection and food. But if we're are never being challenged ideologically,

839
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 2: or we might be the guy that only talks about

840
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: er Rex. But if we and if your friend didn't

841
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: go to the bathroom, if your friend said, look, I

842
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: think you're interesting. Can you not talk about your X?

843
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: And then he's learned a valuable life.

844
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: But if this guy goes, well fuck you what and

845
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: then he goes to the bathroom and starts swiping, it's like, well,

846
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: he's not going to learn anything either, and then he

847
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: never ever, he's kind of trapped in a cycle of

848
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 2: kind of shit behavior because he refuses to ever look

849
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: at himself and go what am I missing? And I've

850
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: met guys in my previous job. I've met guys are

851
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: in the late twenties. I have never introduced a women

852
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: to their parents.

853
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: That's random.

854
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: It's sad, it's not random at all. It is like,

855
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 2: that's like normal. It's just this string of situations, just

856
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 2: six week long kind of things. Yeah, and then the

857
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 2: words what are we show up? And then out comes

858
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: the app Yeah.

859
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 1: Now comes the app No. But this reminds me of

860
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: when I think about travel and how like you used

861
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: to travel and you used to have to use like

862
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,439
Speaker 1: an actual map and turn up somewhere and like book

863
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: a hotel and there was no Airbnb, no urban no

864
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: Google Maps, and I'm like, you would have learned so

865
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: much more about yourself and had, like such probably a

866
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: much more fulfilling experience. Also the fact that you haven't

867
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: seen Eighth Wonder of the World on TikTok before you've

868
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: actually got to it, Like I just I think there

869
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: are so many reasons that the world must have been

870
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: a lot more fulfilling before we saw it all through

871
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: our screens or could do it all through our screens.

872
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 1: But then also like I am such an Internet baby

873
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,919
Speaker 1: that I love that I can order a taxi without

874
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: having to like talk to something. Well, yeah, I've had

875
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: it so easy.

876
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: Well it's all it's every you know.

877
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's up to back my day, so

878
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's interesting.

879
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: But the idea of romantic relationships here in the era

880
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,479
Speaker 2: of just abundance, of.

881
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: The paradox of choice, everything going on Netflix and seeing

882
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: like a million different things you could watch instead of

883
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: turning on the TV and be like I have to

884
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: watch that, or like going to the supermarket and trying

885
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: to buy jam and seeing like twenty different jams. We're like, Okay,

886
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: well now I don't want to I don't know what

887
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: to choose. It's like that we're everything now. And then

888
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: if you're not a good decision maker, which I pride

889
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: myself like I love making decisions and I'm very trust

890
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: my gut because it's like a muscle that you train, right,

891
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: and I am a good decision maker. But if you're not,

892
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: then you just get paralyzed by all these choices in

893
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: every facet of your life. And it's like debilitating having

894
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: everything at your fingertips.

895
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: How do you train the muscle to make decisions.

896
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: You have a period of your life where you literally

897
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,479
Speaker 1: try your hardest not to listen to anyone. I remember

898
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: when I first started the business, I so many people

899
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: wanted to give me advice, and I was just like no,

900
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: for like three years, I'm just going to do this

901
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: because I love it. And see where I get, just

902
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: with myself, because I always like, it's really hard to

903
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: hear yourself when other people are screaming over you, right,

904
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: and so I'm like, no, just listen to yourself. And

905
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: then when you get like an email or a text,

906
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 1: like really listen to how you feel when you first

907
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: get it, and if it feels bad, just remember that

908
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: and like maybe take meeting, but like remember how you

909
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: felt at the very start, and then learn the difference

910
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 1: between intuition and anxiety, like like like, if you want

911
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: to leave somewhere, really really try and see if it's

912
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: because you're like anxious about being there, if it's because

913
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: you actually hate being there. I don't know if there's

914
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: all these things. And I think because I work in

915
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: the news and like a big part of my job

916
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: is like choosing what to write about each day or

917
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: post about, I've really had to be like, Okay, the

918
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: only thing you can trust right now is your gut

919
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: and what people are going to care about today, So

920
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: like just really listen to her. And so, yeah, I'm

921
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 1: such a big proponent for like it's like your body's

922
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: magic eight ball, right, so you're checking it up, Like, yeah,

923
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: I should do that.

924
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: But where does data come into that? Because sometimes, like

925
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 2: the one thing I've learned how to use in the

926
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: last two years or so, it started with doing the

927
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 2: live production of live shows, a spreadsheet can really tell

928
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: you shit that you don't want to know about, yeah,

929
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: because it gets in the way of your idea being awesome.

930
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: But when you look at it and go, this is

931
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: what the show I want to do is like I

932
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 2: would need to charge people two hundred and eighty dollars

933
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: a seat. Yeah, I can't make it that big, and

934
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 2: you have to kind of face that and then move on.

935
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: I think because I've like never take an investment or

936
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: had anyone breathing down my neck for anything, I've like

937
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 1: very specifically been like, if this fails, it's because of me,

938
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: it's not because of anyone else. I've been really avoidant

939
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: of data. And also I think it would be bad

940
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,919
Speaker 1: if I was obsessed with data, because then I'd only

941
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 1: post about things that I probably only post about Harry

942
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: Stars because that's what always gets the most likes. An

943
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: engagement and.

944
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: Whatever audience capture is a massive thing in the space

945
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: that you work in. How do you avoid that?

946
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: I just really don't look at it, and like, I'm

947
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: barely ever in the comment sections unless I've posted something

948
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: like quite an important news story, and then I need

949
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: to make sure I've got it right because people will

950
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: tell you as soon as you get something wrong. Again,

951
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: I think it's like I trust my guart, like, if

952
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: I'm writing about it, it deserves to be written about or

953
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: heard or my audience is actually really good. They'll send

954
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: me so much stuff that I'll be like, Okay, that's

955
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: important and I would never have known about it if

956
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: they had to me. I just and plus I hate numbers.

957
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: It just really helps. I'm like, just hate You'll never

958
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: see me in a spreadsheet.

959
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: I hated them too until I had you know, Yeah,

960
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: it's very serious financial obligations that involve children who are

961
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: hungry and mortgages that need to get married.

962
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, don't own a house, don't have

963
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: a kid, probably will never because of the world.

964
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: And well I heard you say that before, and like

965
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 2: it's up to you what you do. But I always say, like,

966
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: don't don't have the kid. Better just have the kid,

967
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: because who you get to become and the choices that

968
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 2: you will make and the work you will do to

969
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 2: make the world wonderful for that kid.

970
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a pleasing.

971
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 2: Be way better than a lot of kids.

972
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: And I am a big kid. So and you mate,

973
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: it's I love that You're like, it's actually the best

974
00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: thing ever.

975
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 2: It is changes how you look at the world and

976
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: that gives you just like birth, we just need to

977
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 2: play some ads got to pay the bills back with

978
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: Lucy in a moment. The last year or so has

979
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 2: been you know, I s taking with this. Yesterday a

980
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: podcast is out Boy Southwest with the Legerate spender, who

981
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 2: you may not know, but she is the independent member

982
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: for this electorate. She's extraordinary human being, one of six

983
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 2: incredibly skillful, very very well qualified women who came from

984
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: the private sector and moved into politics. So they're not

985
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 2: retail politicians. They give a shout and that it's like,

986
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: hang on, what what do we shout at each other? Yeah?

987
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: What's this about? Yeah? What are you guys doing?

988
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: I hate a career politician? Oh mate, why did you

989
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: study like just to get into politics? Go see something

990
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: wrong with the world and then get Yeah.

991
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the thing we were talking about this electorate north

992
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: from here mostly, but this electorate is home to the

993
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: second largest Jewish population in Australia. Yeah, the largest is

994
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 2: down in Melbourne. And I was asking, I was like,

995
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: how do you navigate the conversations that you need to

996
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: have with your constituents who are rightly terrified and or

997
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: rightly outraged. This has been a difficult time, God for

998
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 2: anybody in the new space, because there's this like like

999
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: stepping on a fucking mouse trap of if you accidentally.

1000
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: Have it's very damned if you do, and damned if

1001
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: you don't.

1002
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 2: How have you navigated it? How do you navigate it?

1003
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: Just you navigate it with grace and you hope that

1004
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: your audience also has grace for you. And honestly, you

1005
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: just got to go with your gut and what you

1006
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: know to be right and turn off the comment sections.

1007
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: No war evern got solved in the comment section of

1008
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: an Instagram post. And I also think this is when

1009
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: posting through it is not a good idea, Like you

1010
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: just really need to get the facts and then like

1011
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: use your heart and be a good person and just

1012
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: not be mean to other people. Like everyone's going through

1013
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: a hard enough time without you yelling in the comment sections.

1014
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: But I can't imagine someone like who you are interviewing.

1015
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: That's like having to actually speak on behalf of even

1016
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: if it's just like a suburb you couldn't pay me enough.

1017
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: Fucking no one's ever going to change their mind in

1018
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: the comment section, no Instagram post ever, no ever ever.

1019
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 1: Everyone's just trying to prove their own knowledge or their

1020
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: own righteousness, which is like it's not actually safe to

1021
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: get and actually I think it's like Australia has like

1022
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: crazy deformation laws, right, and so it's like almost illegal

1023
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: to keep your comment if you're going to pose about

1024
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 1: that as an Australian outlet, to keep your comment sections

1025
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: on because the stuff that's going on in there is

1026
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: probably defiming someone somewhere.

1027
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. For me, it comes back to the idea

1028
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: of we just we cannot stand a microsecond of discomfort, yes,

1029
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 2: or a challenge of what we thought to be true

1030
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 2: we can't bear with. Somehow got ourselves in this position

1031
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: where fascination and curiosity it's like, oh is it not

1032
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: like that I didn't wow, Wow, Okay, it's gone. It's

1033
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 2: like what you talking about? Hoax? Mate, Yeah, fucking hoax.

1034
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: Give them a fucking giant dodge ram.

1035
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: Some people just need to be forced to be a

1036
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: witness to the hard things and just like not have

1037
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 1: an opinion on it for a while and just but

1038
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: it's really like devastating stuff. But if other people are

1039
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: living through the devastation, the least we can do is

1040
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: like look at it and like think about it with

1041
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: some empathy.

1042
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: In the grounds I was thinking about, how do you

1043
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 2: help people value the peace and the prosperity and the

1044
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: safety that we have here more than the feeling of

1045
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: outrage that you get. Because if we value the peace

1046
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: and prosperity of what we have here, how credibly likely

1047
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 2: we are here, we're able to have the difficult conversations.

1048
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, knowing that you're lucky that you're just talking

1049
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: about it and not living through.

1050
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that we don't deserve this. Yeah, nobody, nobody.

1051
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: It's a lotto mate, Yeah, no burst of fucking lottery mail,

1052
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: and nobody chose it. This is how it happened. If

1053
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: we can hold that value higher and tell that story

1054
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 2: to keep that value higher, and yet still have not

1055
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 2: saying not have the conversations, You've got to have the conversations,

1056
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 2: because we're seeing the very fucking direct result of people

1057
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: not having conversations, right, got to have a hard conversations.

1058
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: But as long as we can try to get people

1059
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 2: to value what we do have, that might be a

1060
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 2: pathway forward. Because man, I don't know, man, some of

1061
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 2: the shit I'm seeing on the street, like fuck, no,

1062
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 2: I no, guys, it's okay to be upset.

1063
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. It's we're just living through. Honestly, I

1064
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: keep saying that tweet. That's like I'm sick of living

1065
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: through unprecedented times, Like I want some precedent.

1066
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: They're fucking precedented. Mate, I can show you data in

1067
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 2: graphs from fifty years ago. We know I showed you

1068
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 2: that set the precedent.

1069
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: Oh god, all right, this was all coming.

1070
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: It's it's like when I hear it's like I appreciated rainfall. No,

1071
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: it wasn't. Actually as a CSI report, I report that

1072
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: actually said this is going to happen. So don't unbreceit

1073
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 2: at me.

1074
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: Mate, President me, these floods were protected.

1075
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 2: Actually yeah, yeah, exactly what they told us is going

1076
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,760
Speaker 2: to happen in the nineties. It is happening.

1077
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: And we didn't do anything, and we just decided we

1078
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 1: loved plastic.

1079
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 2: How good's profit next market? Yeah, but it's important that

1080
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,479
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately, as you mentioned, all people, all people

1081
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 2: want to do is be seen. All people wanted to

1082
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 2: be seen, and it's the same like like today, I

1083
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 2: texted a couple of people that were very close to

1084
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: this band, and in the job that I've done in

1085
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: the music industry, there's people that I know who have

1086
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: been very very close to the origin story alongside with

1087
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: the band. It's important to let people know lot them around.

1088
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah all right. All people want to do is just

1089
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: have sometimes all you need to have. So it's like hey, Lucy,

1090
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 2: this happened then and you go, yeah that sucks. Now

1091
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,439
Speaker 2: I feel better, Yeah and done.

1092
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 1: You need to know that, like okay, yeah they actually

1093
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: heard me and now I'm done. Whereas online it's just

1094
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,399
Speaker 1: kind of like you could text me that and I'll

1095
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, but there's actually way bit bigger things

1096
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 1: for you to be worry about. Blah blah blah blahlah.

1097
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: That's what happens online. It's like the classic like yeah,

1098
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: it's what about it is. It's like you can be

1099
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: said about like a horse dying and then someone will

1100
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, but like twenty ducks died today actually,

1101
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: so I.

1102
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 2: Can't believe you.

1103
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: I can't believe you're silence about.

1104
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 2: Ducks, silence of the ducks.

1105
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: The Internet is so insane, it is.

1106
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 2: Don't go near it. The microseconds that happen between post

1107
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 2: and our age, it's too much for us to bear,

1108
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: and it it has hacked our ability to have rational

1109
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: space between incidents and response. Yea. Yet the speed of

1110
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: a newsletter is just about right because you're not it's

1111
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 2: not doesn't keep coming at you. Yeah, and you're able

1112
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: to go and you have a moment, and it's a

1113
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 2: far better place to consume its right stuff. Twilight podcasts

1114
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 2: Like podcasts.

1115
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: And newsletters, it's good because it's at least you know

1116
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: it's been considered. Did because like, you can't just screenshot

1117
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 1: and post. Yeah, you have to.

1118
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,919
Speaker 2: And I can hear the nuance in someone's voice. Yeah,

1119
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,439
Speaker 2: if I read that thing that that person just said

1120
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 2: out loud, if I read, I'd be like what, I can't.

1121
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 2: But if you listen to it, you're like, yeah, I

1122
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 2: done agree with it. I can't get it.

1123
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, I totally like one hundred percent.

1124
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: That's why I love podcasts and newsletters. Social media is

1125
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: just it's just there all the time, so everyone is

1126
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 1: always there.

1127
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 2: First, get your open man from healthy sources, and slow

1128
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: it down, slow it down, And there's nothing to slow

1129
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 2: within a book.

1130
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: Nothing's within a book.

1131
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: Sit down and get into it. Yeah, did you have

1132
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 2: fun writing it? At least?

1133
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: I'm really proud of it now. But it was really

1134
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: as someone that grew up only writing for the internet

1135
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: and has never had an editor. It was like, oh, Lucy,

1136
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: that's probably the biggest challenge one for your writing, which

1137
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 1: is great, and to it's like deep personal like excavation,

1138
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: like you're just going to the deepest part yourself, which

1139
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: is great as well for you. And then it's been

1140
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 1: like the response to the book has been so beautiful

1141
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: that it's like all worth it. But God, it's hard

1142
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 1: to write a book. Have you ever written a book?

1143
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: I have too? Right now?

1144
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,479
Speaker 1: What the fuck? Why would you?

1145
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: Like?

1146
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: I keep saying, and not like definitively ever, people like

1147
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: is it going to be another one? I'm like, give

1148
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: me another like twenty six years to get some more stories.

1149
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: Like no, you'll be quick a at I'm glad you did.

1150
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: And it forgives you there's something to it, There is

1151
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: something to it, tangible to it in this in this time,

1152
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: like I'm pushing harder into live stuff. Yeah. People just

1153
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: kind of want to be around each other.

1154
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: They do.

1155
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: There's something I took for granted when I was growing up.

1156
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 2: But when you've got the sum total of all entertainment,

1157
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 2: it's like the perfect lover who knows that every move

1158
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 2: that gets you off. Yeah, but then after a while,

1159
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 2: like even when you do that thing with your tongue

1160
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 2: and your little finger at the same time, doesn't do

1161
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 2: it like it.

1162
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: Being the most insane analogy, But yes, understood, don't.

1163
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 2: If it's very insane. You just remember I remember that moment.

1164
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 2: I feel like that tonight.

1165
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: So let's go to a live show.

1166
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 2: Let's go to a life show being around other people.

1167
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: It's good for us to have a village. We don't

1168
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: have that like in our neighborhoods anymore, and we don't

1169
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: have it online, which is why I think people are

1170
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: like more and more loving these little niche communities that

1171
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: they make because like people just yeah, back to being

1172
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: wanting to be seen and heard and like loved. We

1173
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: don't have those third spaces in our real life anymore.

1174
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 1: So some I think the Internet is a lot of

1175
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: people's third space.

1176
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 2: So it's spacely home, work, and then.

1177
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: A special place for you where you feel connected.

1178
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 2: To people, like your friend's house or the park with

1179
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 2: your dog or yeah yeah whatever.

1180
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: The loss of that and the Internet filling that gap

1181
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: is quite crazy. But I also said white people for

1182
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: parasocial relationships with people because they just need like this

1183
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: is their third space.

1184
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, parasocial relationship. Those friends aren't going to help you

1185
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 2: move a couch.

1186
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: No, they're not going to be there if you get

1187
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: locked out of your house, but they will be there

1188
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: to send you like that niche. This made me think

1189
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: of your message. So you get different types of love

1190
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,919
Speaker 1: from them, and you can talk to them without Like Kevin,

1191
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: you get dressed, you can be in your pajamas. Me,

1192
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: I'm like writing hard for my community. Like, no, guys

1193
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 1: keep being parasocial with me.

1194
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 2: I love it.

1195
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: I love it.

1196
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: Just real quick. I have someone in my life I

1197
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 2: call in my mentor. Yeah, what would you say to

1198
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 2: people about finding that older person that you're not related to?

1199
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 2: How do you go about choosing one? Yeah? And what

1200
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: do you get to gain from it?

1201
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: So many people are going to want to give you advice,

1202
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 1: and it's back to the trust in your gut thing,

1203
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: like honestly leave like ninety nine percent of the advice

1204
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: and then one is gonna say something to you, Like

1205
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: for me, my mentor Duncan, He's worked in the media industry,

1206
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: but he was like, don't do what I did, and

1207
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 1: don't do what I do, Like they're not gonna want

1208
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: to flex on you with the information. They're gonna want

1209
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: to be like the next thing is this, and you

1210
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: are really primed for it. And they're not gonna want

1211
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: to invest in you, and they're not gonna want to

1212
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: use you. They're just gonna be like obsessed with your

1213
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: product or see something in you that you don't see yourself,

1214
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: and you will just know. Like when I met him

1215
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: and he was like, just stud newsletter, don't make a website,

1216
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: do this, don't do this, you don't need a team yet, like,

1217
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: don't wort you just like on your craft. First, I

1218
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: was like, holy shit, you're first person that's not tried

1219
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: to like shove money at me or like absorb me

1220
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: into your business sligh. And then honestly, then it's kind

1221
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 1: of turned into me mentoring him, which I think is

1222
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: the best thing. Is like Okay, well now we're actually

1223
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: just best friends and like we get to talk media

1224
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 1: all the time. But it is I ever thought I

1225
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: wanted one, and then he kind of turned up and

1226
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, it's actually really good to have

1227
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: someone that's like not my dad, who does not understand

1228
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: my job at oh trying to tell me what he

1229
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 1: thinks is best.

1230
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: In the sobriety community that I'm a part of, they

1231
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 2: basically just say, find someone who's got what you want

1232
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 2: and ask him how they got it.

1233
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: Okay, this is actually perfect. Not to bring it back

1234
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: to the book, but one of the things that bring

1235
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: it back too, that's called make it make sense. It

1236
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: actually slays one of the things that so many people

1237
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: It's like a tiny little thing that I wrote that

1238
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: so many people are taking away from it is I

1239
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 1: wrote about becoming friends with jealousy, and instead of we're

1240
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 1: taught like growing up that it was a green ayded

1241
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: monster in a really ugly emotion. But if you use

1242
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 1: it to show you what you want, Like I so

1243
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: often see people in the media, own business or whatever,

1244
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: and I'm like, God, I'm so jealous of their job

1245
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. I always know it's because like, oh,

1246
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: that's my next thing. I want to be doing that.

1247
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: I should be doing that. And so it's kind of

1248
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 1: like when you find a mentor like dunk and was

1249
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: running a whole media company, I was like, damn, that

1250
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: should be me. Yeah you are probably okay the scale

1251
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: of that and saying I want it and it's just

1252
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: instead of being like, oh, I'm so jealous, let me

1253
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 1: get negative about this, it's like, oh, I'm so jealous,

1254
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: that's probably my guns. Don't telling me how.

1255
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 2: Clue it's a good clue.

1256
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: Clue, who's that jealousy?

1257
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 2: I thanks so much for coming on my home welcome

1258
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 2: And that was Lucy Blackiston. She care about is the

1259
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: newsletter you can join the literally millions of people who

1260
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 2: get around her, people who care about shit. There's a

1261
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 2: link in the show notes, also a link to her

1262
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 2: new book. It's called Make It Makes Sense. Thank you

1263
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 2: so much for being here. If you're up for a

1264
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 2: bit of a boogie. This Saturday night in Sydney at

1265
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 2: Hotel Harry and Surrey Hills, I'm doing a DJ set

1266
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: for a Halloween party. I can't wait a while since

1267
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 2: I'm behind that. I used to do it all the time.

1268
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 2: I'm Stokes, gonna be fun with Danny Clayton a few

1269
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 2: other people. It's going to be a rip of night.

1270
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: Then on the sixth November, Story Club makes a triumphant

1271
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 2: return the Sydney comedy store Zoet and Lodge and I

1272
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 2: hosting the show. Larry Emder is one of our guests

1273
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 2: the Gold Logi winner Larry mdor Jordan Ross Coppolis is

1274
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 2: going to be there, Kate mcclymon and Kate Harris. A

1275
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 2: massive night of hilarity and very true, sometimes very cringey stories.

1276
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: Going back for Seconds is the theme. You can find

1277
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 2: the link to the tickets in the show notes. I'd

1278
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 2: love to see you there. Thank you for being a

1279
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 2: part of it. The audio on this show was post

1280
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 2: produced by Andy Maher. Video post production was by Bexsi Ed.

1281
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 2: My executive producer is Abbi Beno. My executive function assistant

1282
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 2: is Monica Chapman. Thanks being a part of the show.

1283
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: I'll see on Monday.