1 00:00:01,410 --> 00:00:09,210 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. After one 2 00:00:09,310 --> 00:00:11,510 Speaker 1: false start and a hell of a lot of political 3 00:00:11,570 --> 00:00:15,110 Speaker 1: pressure from the right, Labor has finally unveiled its long-awaited 4 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:19,909 Speaker 1: immigration plans. Backpackers, students and visa overstayers will all be 5 00:00:19,970 --> 00:00:23,550 Speaker 1: targeted by the measures, designed to bring net overseas migration 6 00:00:23,590 --> 00:00:29,770 Speaker 1: down from around 300,000 to 225,000 by 2028. So what 7 00:00:29,810 --> 00:00:32,750 Speaker 1: impact will the overhaul have on our economy, our communities 8 00:00:33,170 --> 00:00:38,210 Speaker 1: and on Labor's re-election prospects? Today, journalist Peter Mayers, who 9 00:00:38,229 --> 00:00:42,010 Speaker 1: writes extensively on immigration for Inside Story magazine, on what's 10 00:00:42,070 --> 00:00:44,990 Speaker 1: in store and whether the issue Labor's addressing is a 11 00:00:45,030 --> 00:01:01,580 Speaker 1: political problem or a real one. It's Friday, September 18th. Peter, 12 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. Tony Burke, after a lengthy delay, 13 00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:08,430 Speaker 1: has finally laid out Labor's plan to bring down migration. 14 00:01:09,010 --> 00:01:11,630 Speaker 1: When you strip away the politics around it, what is 15 00:01:11,750 --> 00:01:12,490 Speaker 1: actually changing? 16 00:01:13,170 --> 00:01:14,910 Speaker 2: Well, there's a whole bunch of stuff, and it is 17 00:01:14,990 --> 00:01:19,050 Speaker 2: more a set of minor changes around a whole lot 18 00:01:19,090 --> 00:01:22,450 Speaker 2: of different visa categories than a fundamental overhaul of the 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,780 Speaker 2: migration system. It's also important that he's doing it all 20 00:01:25,860 --> 00:01:29,060 Speaker 2: through regulations, not through legislation. So we're not going to 21 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:31,780 Speaker 2: see a bill go to Parliament... because he hasn't been 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,300 Speaker 2: able to strike a deal with the coalition. So every 23 00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: change he's making is a change in the regulations, as 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,650 Speaker 2: it were. So overall, he wants to see net overseas 25 00:01:42,709 --> 00:01:45,790 Speaker 2: migration come down to 225,000. We need immigration. We just 26 00:01:45,810 --> 00:01:47,790 Speaker 2: need to make sure that it is targeted. 27 00:01:52,310 --> 00:01:55,050 Speaker 3: For the needs of Australia in numbers and across the 28 00:01:55,090 --> 00:01:57,490 Speaker 3: different categories that work for our economy. 29 00:01:57,630 --> 00:02:00,290 Speaker 2: That's unchanged. That's what the government has said for quite 30 00:02:00,310 --> 00:02:03,150 Speaker 2: a while. What has changed is the way in which 31 00:02:03,690 --> 00:02:07,420 Speaker 2: he wants to achieve that. And I guess the two 32 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:11,619 Speaker 2: areas he's targeting are students and backpackers, so temporary migrants, 33 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,660 Speaker 2: international students and backpackers. When it comes to students, what 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: he's said is that international students in future won't be 35 00:02:18,940 --> 00:02:21,810 Speaker 2: able to bring family members with them. 36 00:02:22,030 --> 00:02:25,250 Speaker 3: We will no longer be allowing the attaching of family 37 00:02:25,310 --> 00:02:28,860 Speaker 3: members for international students or for graduate visas. Anyone who 38 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:32,980 Speaker 3: already has their family attached to a visa and is 39 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,820 Speaker 3: already here, we're not going to be breaking up families onshore. 40 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: Now, this will make a very small difference because only 41 00:02:40,060 --> 00:02:44,540 Speaker 2: about 12-13% of student visas are what are called secondary visas, 42 00:02:44,580 --> 00:02:48,470 Speaker 2: that is partners and children. So it's a small number. 43 00:02:49,030 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: With backpackers, the changes are a bit more complicated. But basically, 44 00:02:54,380 --> 00:02:56,500 Speaker 2: if you come to Australia as a working holidaymaker for 45 00:02:56,540 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: a year, and if you work for three months in 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,590 Speaker 2: a regional area, you can get a second working holidaymaker visa. 47 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:04,790 Speaker 2: And then if you work another six months in a 48 00:03:04,810 --> 00:03:09,580 Speaker 2: regional area in certain jobs, you can get a third visa. Now, 49 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: that used to be automatic. You did the time, you 50 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: got the visa. He's introducing a ballot system, which means 51 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 2: that you can do your three months working, picking fruit 52 00:03:17,419 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 2: or whatever, and then you put in for a ballot 53 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: and see if you get a second visa. That second 54 00:03:22,419 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: visa ballot is quite a lot. It's about 45,000, whereas 55 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,970 Speaker 2: last year there were 57,000. So it's down by about 12,000. 56 00:03:30,970 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: The really big difference is in the third visa, because 57 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:37,100 Speaker 2: the ballot there is only for 5,000 places. So it's 58 00:03:37,140 --> 00:03:38,820 Speaker 2: going to be very hard to get a third visa. 59 00:03:38,860 --> 00:03:42,500 Speaker 2: So that will make more working holidaymakers go home earlier 60 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,150 Speaker 2: and make the working holidaymaker scheme less attractive overall. 61 00:03:47,710 --> 00:03:49,790 Speaker 1: What did you make of Labor's promise to crack down 62 00:03:50,010 --> 00:03:53,170 Speaker 1: on deportations for people overstaying their visas? 63 00:03:53,370 --> 00:03:56,580 Speaker 3: Effectively, what we are going back to doing is simply 64 00:03:56,620 --> 00:03:59,300 Speaker 3: being able to make sure that if you overstay, you 65 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,380 Speaker 3: will not be able to say, well, there's no consequences 66 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 3: as if they're ever going to make sure that I leave. 67 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: Does that send us down a US-style ice path potentially, Peter? 68 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:10,740 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think that, well, we 69 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,190 Speaker 2: need to make a distinction here between two things. On 70 00:04:14,210 --> 00:04:18,090 Speaker 2: the one hand, there are overstayers, that is people whose 71 00:04:18,130 --> 00:04:21,630 Speaker 2: visas have run out and then they basically disappear into 72 00:04:21,650 --> 00:04:26,799 Speaker 2: the community and live unlawfully in Australia. And actually, those 73 00:04:26,830 --> 00:04:29,340 Speaker 2: numbers are pretty small. There's only about 70,000 or 80,000 74 00:04:29,339 --> 00:04:33,580 Speaker 2: and those numbers haven't changed in decades. The really big 75 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: problem the government faces is people seeking to stay by 76 00:04:37,060 --> 00:04:39,779 Speaker 2: other means by applying for different visas. They call this 77 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:40,500 Speaker 2: visa hopping. 78 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,140 Speaker 3: The second issue that needs to be dealt with is 79 00:04:43,180 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 3: visa hopping. Now, not all of the movement from one 80 00:04:47,180 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 3: visa to another is what I would call visa hopping. 81 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: A lot of it is actually the system working as 82 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:52,810 Speaker 3: we would want it to. 83 00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:57,110 Speaker 2: So, for example, you might do a degree in a university. 84 00:04:57,779 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 2: And then you want to stay in Australia, but you 85 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,690 Speaker 2: can't get a permanent visa. So you say, I'll go 86 00:05:01,730 --> 00:05:04,650 Speaker 2: and do a TAFE course or a vocational education course. 87 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:06,970 Speaker 2: And what the government has said is you can't do 88 00:05:07,010 --> 00:05:09,729 Speaker 2: that anymore. You can't go, how Burke termed it, you 89 00:05:09,750 --> 00:05:11,969 Speaker 2: can't sort of go down the ladder of degrees. 90 00:05:12,170 --> 00:05:16,849 Speaker 3: And one of the worst examples is they transfer down 91 00:05:17,770 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 3: to a not so legitimate educational provider who is able 92 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 3: to say to them, study with me. It'll cost you less. 93 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 3: We're not very demanding on whether you attend anything and 94 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 3: you'll be able to go for your life and get 95 00:05:30,980 --> 00:05:31,580 Speaker 3: out there and work. 96 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,740 Speaker 2: So that's one of the ways they're trying to stop 97 00:05:33,779 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: what they call visa hopping. The other and the big 98 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,250 Speaker 2: problem is people ending up on bridging visas while they 99 00:05:40,370 --> 00:05:43,910 Speaker 2: try to get another visa. And they might be, for example, 100 00:05:43,990 --> 00:05:46,790 Speaker 2: seeking asylum. You know, the government does have a real 101 00:05:46,850 --> 00:05:49,650 Speaker 2: problem here. A lot of claims for asylum that really 102 00:05:49,690 --> 00:05:52,729 Speaker 2: have no merit. But because it takes so long to 103 00:05:52,750 --> 00:05:55,950 Speaker 2: get a decision, you get work rights and you can 104 00:05:55,990 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: stay in Australia while the decision is made. So you 105 00:05:58,020 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: might end up in Australia for several years with work rights. 106 00:06:00,820 --> 00:06:04,020 Speaker 2: And this has been exploited by scammers, by dodgy labour 107 00:06:04,060 --> 00:06:06,779 Speaker 2: brokers and others, bringing people in on tourist visas and 108 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,050 Speaker 2: then encouraging them to apply for for protection visas. And 109 00:06:11,290 --> 00:06:13,950 Speaker 2: the tricky problem the government faces here is how do 110 00:06:13,990 --> 00:06:17,490 Speaker 2: you crack down on that without also cracking down or 111 00:06:17,550 --> 00:06:20,730 Speaker 2: creating a situation which is totally unfair for someone who 112 00:06:20,750 --> 00:06:22,429 Speaker 2: does have a legitimate asylum claim. 113 00:06:22,810 --> 00:06:25,289 Speaker 1: So what did Burke say about how they would tighten 114 00:06:25,370 --> 00:06:27,420 Speaker 1: up visa hopping, as he put it? 115 00:06:27,750 --> 00:06:30,230 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, the main way they'll tighten up visa hopping 116 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:34,110 Speaker 2: is by making it so you can't move down the 117 00:06:34,230 --> 00:06:36,909 Speaker 2: skills ladder, as it were, or down the educational ladder. 118 00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:39,930 Speaker 2: So you limit the options for visa hopping. And visa 119 00:06:39,970 --> 00:06:42,330 Speaker 2: hopping is a problematic term, right? I mean, we've created 120 00:06:42,370 --> 00:06:47,020 Speaker 2: a system in Australia whereby we have encouraged temporary migration. 121 00:06:47,180 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: We've opened things up. We've created a whole lot of 122 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: lawful ways for people to stay in the country. And 123 00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: it shouldn't be surprising, given that Australia has a pretty 124 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,650 Speaker 2: strong economy, pretty good employment prospects, that people then seek 125 00:06:59,690 --> 00:07:02,310 Speaker 2: to stay here on a legitimate visa because they see 126 00:07:02,650 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: better life prospects for themselves here. 127 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: So we have created this system. 128 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,460 Speaker 2: And when people are accused of visa hopping, they're not. 129 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: Doing anything wrong. 130 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,220 Speaker 2: They're not doing anything illegal. They're just looking for the 131 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,670 Speaker 2: visa options that are there for them to enable them 132 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:19,370 Speaker 2: to remain in Australia. 133 00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:22,970 Speaker 1: So how is what the government has announced compared to 134 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:26,550 Speaker 1: One Nation's offering announced earlier this week, which was based 135 00:07:26,610 --> 00:07:31,540 Speaker 1: on cutting our temporary migration intake by 750,000 over three years, 136 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:36,300 Speaker 1: taking us into negative migration. How does this compare to that? 137 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:42,180 Speaker 2: Well, it's a much slower winding back of migration. And 138 00:07:42,340 --> 00:07:44,900 Speaker 2: it's an open question as to whether it's enough to 139 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,340 Speaker 2: reach the government's targets. I think it will be because 140 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,710 Speaker 2: numbers have been trending down already and the government's done 141 00:07:50,750 --> 00:07:53,610 Speaker 2: a lot of other things to slow migration. For example... 142 00:07:54,110 --> 00:07:58,390 Speaker 2: It's increased the price of most visas by 25%. It's 143 00:07:58,830 --> 00:08:02,180 Speaker 2: required students to have a lot more savings than they 144 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: used to have if they want to come and study 145 00:08:03,780 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: in Australia. It's increased English language requirements for various things. 146 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: So net overseas migration has already been slowing. But how 147 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: it compares to One Nation, I mean, one of the 148 00:08:13,420 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: things One Nation wanted to do was to say, if 149 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,500 Speaker 2: you're a temporary skilled migrant, so let's say you're a 150 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:23,270 Speaker 2: doctor going to work in a regional town like Bathurst 151 00:08:23,330 --> 00:08:27,270 Speaker 2: or something like that on a four-year visa, you can't 152 00:08:27,290 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: bring your family. That would have made a difference to 153 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:35,179 Speaker 2: numbers because about 40% of all people who come under 154 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 2: a skilled migrant category are either the partners or children 155 00:08:38,220 --> 00:08:40,780 Speaker 2: of skilled migrants. But you're talking about skilled migrants. You're 156 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,410 Speaker 2: talking about people that are not students. They're at a 157 00:08:43,420 --> 00:08:46,630 Speaker 2: later stage in their life. They've got families. They've got partners. 158 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,020 Speaker 2: And to say to them, you can come to Australia, 159 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,410 Speaker 2: but only on your own, leave the kids and the 160 00:08:51,429 --> 00:08:54,090 Speaker 2: partner behind, that's an outrageous suggestion. 161 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:56,429 Speaker 1: And then to put it crudely, they're in their prime 162 00:08:56,450 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: in terms of being able to pay taxes, pay for 163 00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:01,599 Speaker 1: some of the services that are needed to support them 164 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:02,059 Speaker 1: and us. 165 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 2: Exactly. 166 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:04,580 Speaker 1: It's pretty cruel, is it not? 167 00:09:04,970 --> 00:09:07,790 Speaker 2: It would be cruel and it would be counterproductive because 168 00:09:07,870 --> 00:09:11,570 Speaker 2: often the partners of skilled migrants are skilled migrants themselves. 169 00:09:11,630 --> 00:09:14,469 Speaker 2: They often work. They contribute to the economy. The other 170 00:09:14,550 --> 00:09:17,070 Speaker 2: difference with One Nation would have really, you know, One 171 00:09:17,110 --> 00:09:20,930 Speaker 2: Nation's plans would really crash the higher education sector if 172 00:09:20,970 --> 00:09:23,429 Speaker 2: you bring the numbers down as fast as they would 173 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: like to do. So it's a much more careful approach. 174 00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:32,850 Speaker 2: approach than One Nation has shown. Although, you know, we 175 00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:36,109 Speaker 2: do see all the parties here kind of running in 176 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:38,970 Speaker 2: the same direction, which is to say migration is too high. 177 00:09:39,429 --> 00:09:42,490 Speaker 2: We've got to bring the numbers down. I was pleased, however, 178 00:09:42,530 --> 00:09:46,630 Speaker 2: that Tony Burke did give a defence of migration in 179 00:09:46,670 --> 00:09:49,390 Speaker 2: his press club speech, what it does for Australia, how 180 00:09:49,429 --> 00:09:52,579 Speaker 2: we benefit Australia benefits. He was pressed by a couple 181 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:55,429 Speaker 2: of journalists at the Press Club who said, why haven't 182 00:09:55,429 --> 00:09:57,969 Speaker 2: you been saying this stuff before? Why you know you've 183 00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:00,350 Speaker 2: been missing in action they got very defensive about that 184 00:10:00,650 --> 00:10:00,929 Speaker 2: do you. 185 00:10:00,910 --> 00:10:03,290 Speaker 4: Acknowledge that while you've been in government there are points 186 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:06,429 Speaker 4: in this debate that have been extremely harmful to migrant 187 00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 4: communities where labor was either quiet or according to those 188 00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 4: communities felt like there was a silence and is there 189 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,340 Speaker 4: a concession that you need to make that it's as 190 00:10:16,380 --> 00:10:19,940 Speaker 4: a result migrant communities who have paid the price of 191 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:22,020 Speaker 4: demonization in this process. 192 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,260 Speaker 3: Can you give me an example of when I've been 193 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 3: silent on that? 194 00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 4: This is what the migrant community is feeling. 195 00:10:28,140 --> 00:10:33,099 Speaker 3: I've spent my whole career, my entire political life, standing 196 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 3: up against hate speech. 197 00:10:34,660 --> 00:10:36,740 Speaker 2: But I think it's true that One Nation has been 198 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,479 Speaker 2: setting the agenda here and the government is scrambling to 199 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: catch up. 200 00:10:43,340 --> 00:10:47,089 Speaker 1: Still to come, is migration or politics at the heart 201 00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:56,700 Speaker 1: of this announcement? Peter, how much of this immigration issue 202 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,210 Speaker 1: is about politics and One Nation putting it on the agenda? 203 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:03,170 Speaker 1: And how much of it is a real problem with 204 00:11:03,230 --> 00:11:05,490 Speaker 1: our migration levels? Or is it both? 205 00:11:05,950 --> 00:11:08,309 Speaker 2: I think it's both, Daniel. I think it is both. 206 00:11:08,970 --> 00:11:11,830 Speaker 2: There are real problems. And part of that all goes 207 00:11:11,870 --> 00:11:15,990 Speaker 2: back to the pandemic, right? We had this, some call 208 00:11:16,010 --> 00:11:20,270 Speaker 2: it a kind of whiplash experience where migration stopped, went 209 00:11:20,309 --> 00:11:23,650 Speaker 2: backwards actually, during the pandemic when all the borders closed. 210 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,970 Speaker 2: And if people remember, as the pandemic came to an end, 211 00:11:28,410 --> 00:11:31,790 Speaker 2: there was huge panic in the business community about not 212 00:11:31,850 --> 00:11:34,489 Speaker 2: having enough workers to do the jobs we needed to 213 00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:38,610 Speaker 2: get done. And the then Morrison government basically stepped on 214 00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:42,390 Speaker 2: the gas and opened up migration again and really made 215 00:11:42,429 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: it attractive to come to Australia. And the numbers boomed. 216 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,500 Speaker 2: And Labor was probably too slow to wind back some 217 00:11:49,580 --> 00:11:54,220 Speaker 2: coalition initiatives and And so we saw that breakout year 218 00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: when net overseas migration was 500 and something thousand, you know, 219 00:11:59,179 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: it was a huge surge and it's been falling back 220 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: since then. So, you know, if we hadn't had COVID, 221 00:12:05,780 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: I don't think we'd be in the same, having the 222 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,350 Speaker 2: same debates we're having now, but we are having them. 223 00:12:10,390 --> 00:12:14,230 Speaker 2: We're having them not just because Pauline Hanson and One 224 00:12:14,270 --> 00:12:16,850 Speaker 2: Nation have been making the running, but because people are 225 00:12:16,929 --> 00:12:20,510 Speaker 2: experiencing the real difficulties in the rental market. I mean, 226 00:12:20,530 --> 00:12:22,790 Speaker 2: they were anyway. I'm not blaming migrants to the rental market. 227 00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:28,300 Speaker 2: But if you do have a big influx of international students, say, 228 00:12:28,340 --> 00:12:31,420 Speaker 2: then that will affect rents around universities and colleges and 229 00:12:31,460 --> 00:12:34,699 Speaker 2: so on. So the two are connected. So there are 230 00:12:34,740 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: real problems and they're very difficult problems to tackle. And 231 00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:41,429 Speaker 2: I hope the government is still going to do what 232 00:12:41,470 --> 00:12:42,869 Speaker 2: it said it would do when it came in in 233 00:12:42,870 --> 00:12:47,429 Speaker 2: 2022 and the process it started. which was to comprehensively 234 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 2: review the migration program and try to make it more systematic, 235 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,140 Speaker 2: try to give it a proper overhaul rather than just 236 00:12:54,179 --> 00:12:56,820 Speaker 2: keep tweaking the bits here and there. 237 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: So there is some correction needed, but there's also a 238 00:13:00,059 --> 00:13:02,420 Speaker 1: risk that when it comes to the politics around this, 239 00:13:02,460 --> 00:13:06,070 Speaker 1: that we could overcorrect, particularly given some of the hard 240 00:13:06,130 --> 00:13:09,410 Speaker 1: numbers we're seeing from One Nation and the Coalition. Is 241 00:13:09,450 --> 00:13:09,910 Speaker 1: that a risk? 242 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:11,969 Speaker 2: I think it is a risk. I mean, I think 243 00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:16,330 Speaker 2: what we want to avoid is what we've experienced with COVID, 244 00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:20,609 Speaker 2: where you get these dramatic fluctuations, you know, down or 245 00:13:20,770 --> 00:13:26,010 Speaker 2: up in migration, because that creates reverberations throughout the economy. 246 00:13:26,630 --> 00:13:29,429 Speaker 2: So you want to keep it a bit kind of steadier, 247 00:13:30,090 --> 00:13:32,650 Speaker 2: if you can. And it is quite hard to do 248 00:13:32,710 --> 00:13:37,209 Speaker 2: because you implement policy X, one year and then a 249 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:39,770 Speaker 2: year later you realise it hasn't had quite the effect 250 00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:42,350 Speaker 2: you intended and people have found a workaround and all 251 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:44,620 Speaker 2: the rest of it. It's very tricky stuff. I think 252 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,900 Speaker 2: the fundamental problem here, Tony Burke said something very interesting 253 00:13:48,940 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: right at the start of his speech. He said, we've 254 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,500 Speaker 2: moved to a demand-driven migration system. If 100,000 international students 255 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,780 Speaker 2: want to come and study in Australia, they can come. 256 00:13:59,420 --> 00:14:02,890 Speaker 2: If Australian businesses want to import skilled workers, they can 257 00:14:02,929 --> 00:14:05,530 Speaker 2: import them. There's no quotas attached and the numbers go 258 00:14:05,550 --> 00:14:09,219 Speaker 2: up and down according to demand. And Tony Burke said 259 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,780 Speaker 2: that's not what Australians want. They want to see the 260 00:14:12,820 --> 00:14:14,900 Speaker 2: government in control of migration. 261 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 3: And they do want to see government able to take 262 00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: a higher level of control on different parts of the 263 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: immigration system compared to what previously has been there. 264 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,180 Speaker 2: I'm surprised that all of a sudden the government's saying 265 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,260 Speaker 2: this because this has been obvious for a very long time. 266 00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:33,690 Speaker 2: I wrote a book in 2016 where I said Australia 267 00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:36,410 Speaker 2: is going to run into a problem because we have 268 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:40,490 Speaker 2: an unlimited number of temporary migrants, and a limited number 269 00:14:40,530 --> 00:14:43,290 Speaker 2: of permanent places, and a lot of those temporary migrants 270 00:14:43,310 --> 00:14:46,460 Speaker 2: will want to stay, and they will find whatever way 271 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,660 Speaker 2: they can to stay in Australia long term until they 272 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:53,580 Speaker 2: are effectively Australian in all but their legal status. Because 273 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,870 Speaker 2: they've lived here, they've built their lives here, they've been 274 00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:58,470 Speaker 2: here eight, ten years or whatever, but they're still on 275 00:14:58,490 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 2: this indefinite temporary visa treadmill of Their lives are unstable 276 00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: and it's created a whole set of problems that have 277 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: been coming at us for a long time and that 278 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: we're still not really addressing. 279 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,540 Speaker 1: And finally, Peter, this is an issue, immigration is an 280 00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:17,470 Speaker 1: issue that is sort of intertwined with the story of 281 00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:22,030 Speaker 1: Australia throughout our history. It often becomes a political football. 282 00:15:22,450 --> 00:15:25,670 Speaker 1: What's the danger when we look at immigration through that 283 00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:28,670 Speaker 1: political lens and how would you like to see immigration 284 00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:30,590 Speaker 1: treated in this country? 285 00:15:31,270 --> 00:15:33,910 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I mean, the danger, Daniel, is a very 286 00:15:33,970 --> 00:15:36,110 Speaker 2: real one. And we've seen it writ large in this 287 00:15:36,270 --> 00:15:39,370 Speaker 2: so-called debate about immigration in recent months, which has really 288 00:15:39,410 --> 00:15:42,490 Speaker 2: been a blame game, blaming immigrants for all our problems. 289 00:15:43,070 --> 00:15:46,270 Speaker 2: Inflation must be immigrants' problems. Housing must be immigrants' problems. 290 00:15:46,330 --> 00:15:48,740 Speaker 2: Road congestion must be immigrants'. You know, we've seen a 291 00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:52,700 Speaker 2: lot of blame shifted to immigrants and very little vigorous 292 00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: defence efforts. of immigration and the benefits that flow from it. 293 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: And it is a very complicated area. So I would 294 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,950 Speaker 2: like to see more robust defence of migration. I'd like 295 00:16:03,970 --> 00:16:08,070 Speaker 2: to see governments saying we've got things wrong rather than 296 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:11,050 Speaker 2: saying migrants have got things wrong and we're working to 297 00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:14,450 Speaker 2: sort them out. You know, there are abuses in the system. 298 00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:16,550 Speaker 2: There are people who seek to use the system for 299 00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: their own means and not as it was intended. But 300 00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:22,100 Speaker 2: it's a system we created, as in our government's The 301 00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:24,860 Speaker 2: governments we voted for created this system. So if there 302 00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: are faults, that's where the fault lies, in the way 303 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,220 Speaker 2: the settings have been designed, rather than in the fault 304 00:16:31,260 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: of migrants who, for understandable reasons, may want to stay 305 00:16:33,950 --> 00:16:35,830 Speaker 2: in Australia like the rest of us. 306 00:16:36,010 --> 00:16:37,490 Speaker 1: Yeah, we forget one of the big problems with this 307 00:16:37,570 --> 00:16:39,370 Speaker 1: is that Australia is actually a lovely place to live. 308 00:16:39,950 --> 00:16:40,410 Speaker 2: Exactly. 309 00:16:44,930 --> 00:16:46,190 Speaker 1: Peter, thanks so much for your time. 310 00:16:46,690 --> 00:16:47,150 Speaker 2: Thanks, Daniel. 311 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: Also in the news, an official rate rise later this 312 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,020 Speaker 1: month is now looking more likely after the US Fed 313 00:17:09,380 --> 00:17:12,429 Speaker 1: defied Donald Trump, lifting interest rates by a quarter of 314 00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:15,790 Speaker 1: a percent. Australia is expected to follow suit. The markets 315 00:17:15,830 --> 00:17:19,170 Speaker 1: now put the chance of a hike at 88%. Economists 316 00:17:19,290 --> 00:17:22,389 Speaker 1: at the big banks are more divided, though. At this stage, 317 00:17:22,510 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: only NAB is tipping an interest rate rise. A massive 318 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,300 Speaker 1: attack has taken aim at Ed Sheeran, saying no artist 319 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,780 Speaker 1: should tolerate the censorship of another artist however many millions 320 00:17:33,820 --> 00:17:36,740 Speaker 1: of dollars are in play. Sheeran now has no support 321 00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: acts for upcoming shows after they all pulled out in 322 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: solidarity with Macklemore, who was removed from the tour for 323 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:47,890 Speaker 1: saying free Palestine on stage. Sheeran says it wasn't his decision. 324 00:17:48,890 --> 00:17:51,890 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James. Thank you for listening to 7am. We'll 325 00:17:51,910 --> 00:17:52,550 Speaker 1: be back tomorrow.