1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:07,050 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,380 --> 00:00:10,350 Sean Aylmer: There's been plenty of talk recently about the Chinese economy 3 00:00:10,350 --> 00:00:14,520 Sean Aylmer: grinding back into gear as lockdowns lift. So, is it 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,310 Sean Aylmer: time for investors to start looking again at the world's 5 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:20,700 Sean Aylmer: second largest economy, and what's it mean for Australia's own 6 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:23,760 Sean Aylmer: trade relationship with so many tariffs and bans on Australian 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,690 Sean Aylmer: products still in place? Professor Tim Harcourt knows a lot 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,630 Sean Aylmer: about business in China. He's a host of the TV 9 00:00:30,630 --> 00:00:34,620 Sean Aylmer: program, After the Pandemic, which explores where the trade relationship 10 00:00:34,620 --> 00:00:38,250 Sean Aylmer: between Australia and China is headed in the post- COVID 11 00:00:38,250 --> 00:00:41,699 Sean Aylmer: world. Tim is the industry professor and chief economist at 12 00:00:41,700 --> 00:00:44,729 Sean Aylmer: University of Technology Sydney, and also the host of The 13 00:00:44,729 --> 00:00:49,229 Sean Aylmer: Airport Economist podcast on Listnr. Also a terrific guy. Tim, 14 00:00:49,229 --> 00:00:50,400 Sean Aylmer: welcome back to Fear & Greed. 15 00:00:50,610 --> 00:00:52,950 Professor Tim Harcourt: Thanks for that very warm introduction, Sean, really. 16 00:00:52,950 --> 00:00:54,510 Sean Aylmer: You've got a few hats, Tim. 17 00:00:54,540 --> 00:00:56,070 Professor Tim Harcourt: And likewise. Likewise. 18 00:00:57,450 --> 00:00:59,580 Sean Aylmer: Look, while the rest of the world is learning to 19 00:00:59,580 --> 00:01:03,900 Sean Aylmer: live with COVID, China continues to pursue a COVID zero 20 00:01:04,050 --> 00:01:08,160 Sean Aylmer: policy. I suppose a few questions there, how much damage 21 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,229 Sean Aylmer: has it done to the economy? Do you think they'll 22 00:01:10,230 --> 00:01:10,980 Sean Aylmer: keep doing it? 23 00:01:11,310 --> 00:01:14,940 Professor Tim Harcourt: I think the damage has mainly been internal, to the 24 00:01:14,940 --> 00:01:18,660 Professor Tim Harcourt: extent that we keep sending our rocks and crops over 25 00:01:18,660 --> 00:01:21,360 Professor Tim Harcourt: to China without too much of a difficulty to spot 26 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,860 Professor Tim Harcourt: the trade bans with some other sectors. And, they're really 27 00:01:25,860 --> 00:01:29,580 Professor Tim Harcourt: determined to be proven right on this zero- COVID stuff, 28 00:01:29,580 --> 00:01:33,119 Professor Tim Harcourt: and they've locked down Beijing and Shanghai and Guangzhou, pretty 29 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,170 Professor Tim Harcourt: significant cities, not just Wuhan. So they are taking it 30 00:01:37,590 --> 00:01:40,020 Professor Tim Harcourt: very seriously. And of course, they don't have the checks 31 00:01:40,020 --> 00:01:43,170 Professor Tim Harcourt: and balances that democracies have. So, if Xi Jinping decides zero- 32 00:01:43,170 --> 00:01:45,240 Professor Tim Harcourt: COVID is a way to go, then that's the way 33 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:45,630 Professor Tim Harcourt: to go. 34 00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:47,910 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Will they stick to it, do you think? 35 00:01:48,150 --> 00:01:51,480 Professor Tim Harcourt: I think there'll be increasing pressure on them, as the 36 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,370 Professor Tim Harcourt: economy sort of plateaus and stays stagnant. If the signs 37 00:01:56,370 --> 00:01:59,700 Professor Tim Harcourt: are there that the economy's coming back, then that might 38 00:01:59,700 --> 00:02:02,460 Professor Tim Harcourt: give them a few degrees of freedom. But, I think 39 00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:04,170 Professor Tim Harcourt: they're going to stick to it, because they've got this 40 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:07,890 Professor Tim Harcourt: thing about, once you make this big pronouncement, it's pretty 41 00:02:07,890 --> 00:02:10,799 Professor Tim Harcourt: hard to back down under the communist system. 42 00:02:11,460 --> 00:02:13,290 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now China, we talk about, I mean it's such a 43 00:02:13,290 --> 00:02:16,860 Sean Aylmer: massive economy, and it has certainly slowed down as a 44 00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:21,510 Sean Aylmer: result of COVID and restrictions. But it's not like some 45 00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:25,650 Sean Aylmer: of the other Western economies that went into deep recession, 46 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:28,769 Sean Aylmer: for a couple of quarters at least. China has slowed, 47 00:02:28,770 --> 00:02:30,690 Sean Aylmer: but it's not exactly in a recession as such. 48 00:02:31,290 --> 00:02:35,100 Professor Tim Harcourt: No, it's not. What's interesting is, the major Western economies 49 00:02:35,100 --> 00:02:38,040 Professor Tim Harcourt: are used to freedom of movement and freedom of speech 50 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,120 Professor Tim Harcourt: and everything else. China's still pretty controlled internally with the 51 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,510 Professor Tim Harcourt: social credit system. So, it's not like they're locked down 52 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:48,660 Professor Tim Harcourt: all the time, but the party does monitor how people 53 00:02:48,660 --> 00:02:53,670 Professor Tim Harcourt: travel around the countryside and within cities. So, even in 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,899 Professor Tim Harcourt: normal times, they've got a lot of control on movement 55 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:01,650 Professor Tim Harcourt: of people, and therefore, services, that internal movement, while we 56 00:03:01,650 --> 00:03:03,720 Professor Tim Harcourt: in Western countries just aren't used to that, and that's 57 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,120 Professor Tim Harcourt: why you have a more dramatic effect if you start 58 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,350 Professor Tim Harcourt: controlling people, which we normally don't. But, for a reasonably 59 00:03:10,350 --> 00:03:13,649 Professor Tim Harcourt: free society, to have people being told, " You can't move 60 00:03:14,130 --> 00:03:17,700 Professor Tim Harcourt: five kilometers outside your house or your suburb," that was 61 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:20,700 Professor Tim Harcourt: a big deal for us, while China, that's pretty business 62 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:21,179 Professor Tim Harcourt: as usual. 63 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:25,080 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, I mean, what's happened in China has had 64 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,770 Sean Aylmer: massive flow and effects for supply chains around the world. 65 00:03:29,669 --> 00:03:31,080 Sean Aylmer: Is that improving, do you think? 66 00:03:31,590 --> 00:03:36,030 Professor Tim Harcourt: I think it's starting to. I think, ironically, the Russia- 67 00:03:36,210 --> 00:03:39,570 Professor Tim Harcourt: Ukraine War has sort of sharpened up supply chains in 68 00:03:39,570 --> 00:03:44,550 Professor Tim Harcourt: agriculture, basically because of Russia trying to take out Mariupol 69 00:03:44,550 --> 00:03:49,710 Professor Tim Harcourt: and Odessa, where 35% of Ukraine's world exports go through. 70 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,570 Professor Tim Harcourt: People really tried to unblock supply chains around the world 71 00:03:54,570 --> 00:03:56,880 Professor Tim Harcourt: and have been doing it reasonably successfully. So I think 72 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,390 Professor Tim Harcourt: that's going to come back. Unfortunately, the circumstances which has 73 00:04:00,390 --> 00:04:03,810 Professor Tim Harcourt: happened is pretty tough. And that's why, in some ways, 74 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,440 Professor Tim Harcourt: school children in Australia, 20 years from now, we'll be 75 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,450 Professor Tim Harcourt: looking back at the time that Australia sort of filled 76 00:04:09,450 --> 00:04:13,050 Professor Tim Harcourt: this gap to feed the world an export wheat, maize 77 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:16,230 Professor Tim Harcourt: and barley around the world because of the situation in Ukraine. 78 00:04:16,980 --> 00:04:19,469 Sean Aylmer: That's like a silver lining or something, Tim. 79 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:22,979 Professor Tim Harcourt: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's been sort of underrated, but if you 80 00:04:22,980 --> 00:04:26,279 Professor Tim Harcourt: look at agricultural exports, they've been really booming. You know 81 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,320 Professor Tim Harcourt: the old " we've gone from the mining boom to the 82 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,190 Professor Tim Harcourt: dining boom" expression? Agriculture's playing a very important part in 83 00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:34,380 Professor Tim Harcourt: the world economy now, because we've got this other GFC, 84 00:04:34,589 --> 00:04:37,830 Professor Tim Harcourt: this global food crisis, and Australia is one of the most 85 00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:40,080 Professor Tim Harcourt: key agricultural exporters in the global economy. 86 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,930 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Tim. We'll be back in a minute. 87 00:04:49,290 --> 00:04:51,690 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Tim Harcourt from the University 88 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:55,049 Sean Aylmer: of Technology Sydney, and host of TV show, After the 89 00:04:55,050 --> 00:04:59,040 Sean Aylmer: Pandemic, and podcast, The Airport Economist. Now, I want to 90 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,320 Sean Aylmer: just stick with China. After the Pandemic is a terrific 91 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,810 Sean Aylmer: show. This is your show. You had incredible access on 92 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:06,180 Sean Aylmer: both sides of the conversation. You spoke to everyone, from 93 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,900 Sean Aylmer: former PMs like Malcolm Turnbull and Kevin Rudd, to Elizabeth 94 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:13,320 Sean Aylmer: Gaines, who of course ran Fortescue. One of the key themes 95 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,240 Sean Aylmer: that just kept coming through is the importance of trust 96 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:23,729 Sean Aylmer: and respect in the trade relationship, when China is involved. 97 00:05:24,779 --> 00:05:27,660 Sean Aylmer: We seem to have lost their trust and respect somewhat, 98 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:30,810 Sean Aylmer: though the new government probably has been given somewhat of 99 00:05:31,020 --> 00:05:34,920 Sean Aylmer: a second chance. But, whereabouts does Australia sit in that 100 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,480 Sean Aylmer: trust and respect spectrum in Beijing's eyes, do you think? 101 00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:41,969 Professor Tim Harcourt: You've clearly been watching the episode with David Koch, Sean. 102 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,320 Professor Tim Harcourt: Now, that's what he said. The episode where we did 103 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,290 Professor Tim Harcourt: David Koch talking about Port Adelaide going to Shanghai and 104 00:05:49,620 --> 00:05:53,430 Professor Tim Harcourt: Elizabeth Gaines and Fortescue, that was Koch's big thing about 105 00:05:53,430 --> 00:05:56,159 Professor Tim Harcourt: trust and respect. Well, that's always been the case, not 106 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,680 Professor Tim Harcourt: just in China, but in Japan and Korea and around 107 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,779 Professor Tim Harcourt: the world. You can't really go very far without trust 108 00:06:00,779 --> 00:06:02,430 Professor Tim Harcourt: and respect. Ask Donald Trump. 109 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:04,740 Sean Aylmer: He went a fair bit, fairway. 110 00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:10,500 Professor Tim Harcourt: In some ways, Koch's view that trust and respect and 111 00:06:10,890 --> 00:06:13,500 Professor Tim Harcourt: all this sort of stuff, well, it's more to it 112 00:06:13,500 --> 00:06:15,870 Professor Tim Harcourt: than that, because in some ways, China has changed a 113 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:20,190 Professor Tim Harcourt: lot, and the leadership of Deng Xiaoping and Hu Jintao 114 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,430 Professor Tim Harcourt: is very different than Xi. And, the view of the 115 00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:27,479 Professor Tim Harcourt: world that China's taking now is very different. And, one 116 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,520 Professor Tim Harcourt: thing that's clear to me is, I mean, obviously we 117 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,430 Professor Tim Harcourt: focus on Australia and China, but China's been having disputes 118 00:06:33,210 --> 00:06:37,230 Professor Tim Harcourt: with the Czech Republic and Ecuador and Brazil and South 119 00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:40,740 Professor Tim Harcourt: Korea and Japan and the EU and Canada. They're fighting 120 00:06:40,740 --> 00:06:44,580 Professor Tim Harcourt: on a number of fronts. India, Vietnam, Philippines. They've been 121 00:06:44,580 --> 00:06:46,620 Professor Tim Harcourt: having disputes with a number of countries, so it's not 122 00:06:46,620 --> 00:06:52,349 Professor Tim Harcourt: just about Australia. So this feud that Aussies are loud 123 00:06:52,350 --> 00:06:54,599 Professor Tim Harcourt: mouthed bogans who don't know how to respect China, well, 124 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,599 Professor Tim Harcourt: that's just nonsense because China's having disputes with lots of 125 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:03,270 Professor Tim Harcourt: countries, and it's principally really about where geopolitics takes over 126 00:07:03,270 --> 00:07:06,630 Professor Tim Harcourt: from simple economics and trade. Because when you look at 127 00:07:06,810 --> 00:07:10,110 Professor Tim Harcourt: economics and trade, as Malcolm Turnbull said in the show, " 128 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:13,140 Professor Tim Harcourt: There wouldn't be anywhere better in the world to invest 129 00:07:13,620 --> 00:07:16,350 Professor Tim Harcourt: than Australia," and that's the opinion of most foreign investors. 130 00:07:16,350 --> 00:07:19,620 Professor Tim Harcourt: So, there's something happening on the China front, in terms 131 00:07:19,620 --> 00:07:23,580 Professor Tim Harcourt: of control that Xi Jinping's putting on, that's affecting them. So I 132 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:27,000 Professor Tim Harcourt: think that's part of that response. But, sure, trust and 133 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,780 Professor Tim Harcourt: respect, it's always best to do that. And, hopefully, we'll 134 00:07:30,780 --> 00:07:32,880 Professor Tim Harcourt: get a bit of a reset now that the ABN 135 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,800 Professor Tim Harcourt: Aussie government can start again. 136 00:07:35,820 --> 00:07:39,120 Sean Aylmer: Okay. If I'm a business, and I kind of want 137 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,670 Sean Aylmer: to engage with China, it's such a huge market and, 138 00:07:41,940 --> 00:07:44,670 Sean Aylmer: potentially, I import from there, potentially, I sell to there, 139 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,480 Sean Aylmer: how should I think about the post- COVID landscape, just 140 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,340 Sean Aylmer: with an eye to the fact that, politically, we are 141 00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:54,090 Sean Aylmer: so aligned to the US? Does that spill into the 142 00:07:54,090 --> 00:07:58,350 Sean Aylmer: business world? Can I, as a big business, do business 143 00:07:58,350 --> 00:08:01,500 Sean Aylmer: with China without worrying about that geopolitics? How's all that work? 144 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,400 Professor Tim Harcourt: Well, my grandfather used to say, Sean, business is business. 145 00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:08,340 Professor Tim Harcourt: And, when you think about it, when it comes to 146 00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:13,470 Professor Tim Harcourt: energy, security, food security, a 300 million middle class all 147 00:08:13,470 --> 00:08:17,400 Professor Tim Harcourt: wanting an education, China needs Australia, just as Australia needs 148 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,210 Professor Tim Harcourt: China as a predominant trading partner. So I think business 149 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,190 Professor Tim Harcourt: will continue on, that the 10, 000 small and medium sized 150 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,670 Professor Tim Harcourt: enterprises that export to China can't be wrong. But I 151 00:08:29,670 --> 00:08:33,000 Professor Tim Harcourt: think a point that Kevin Rudd made, I thought, was 152 00:08:33,630 --> 00:08:37,650 Professor Tim Harcourt: quite good. He gave a very thoughtful interview on China 153 00:08:37,650 --> 00:08:40,709 Professor Tim Harcourt: and the USA, and the impact on Australia and how 154 00:08:41,130 --> 00:08:44,069 Professor Tim Harcourt: we should behave as a trading partner and as a 155 00:08:44,490 --> 00:08:48,030 Professor Tim Harcourt: friend of China's, not with a megaphone. And he said, 156 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:53,430 Professor Tim Harcourt: ultimately, China's a great export destination, and everyone, from Fortescue, 157 00:08:53,670 --> 00:08:57,000 Professor Tim Harcourt: down to the small businesses, find it a very good 158 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,929 Professor Tim Harcourt: market to be based in Australia and sell goods and 159 00:09:00,929 --> 00:09:04,410 Professor Tim Harcourt: services to China. It's a wonderful market. You can get great 160 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:09,090 Professor Tim Harcourt: import distributors to represent you in China. There's a mattress 161 00:09:09,150 --> 00:09:13,859 Professor Tim Harcourt: maker in Southern Sydney that sells mattresses all over, all over. 162 00:09:13,950 --> 00:09:16,290 Sean Aylmer: Oh wow. A. H. Beard, I'm just, out of interest? 163 00:09:16,530 --> 00:09:18,390 Professor Tim Harcourt: Yeah, yeah. A. H. Beard. Yeah. Yeah. You've got one, have you? 164 00:09:19,170 --> 00:09:19,920 Professor Tim Harcourt: Get a good night's sleep on it, that's for sure. 165 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,589 Sean Aylmer: No. One of my first stories I ever did in 166 00:09:22,590 --> 00:09:26,130 Sean Aylmer: journalism was to get down to the factory and interview. It 167 00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:27,929 Sean Aylmer: was a family- run business at the time, I'm not 168 00:09:27,929 --> 00:09:30,900 Sean Aylmer: sure now. And their great hope was to get into 169 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:34,260 Sean Aylmer: China. And this is many, many years ago. I didn't 170 00:09:34,260 --> 00:09:35,130 Sean Aylmer: ever realize they did it. 171 00:09:35,130 --> 00:09:37,620 Professor Tim Harcourt: A. H. Beard, they did it. They got these two 172 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:42,210 Professor Tim Harcourt: wonderful ladies who were great import distributors representatives, and they're 173 00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:46,170 Professor Tim Harcourt: doing really well in China. And, they sell mattresses for $ 90, 174 00:09:46,170 --> 00:09:50,730 Professor Tim Harcourt: 000. And they're handcrafted. They're amazing. And they're, as you 175 00:09:50,730 --> 00:09:55,350 Professor Tim Harcourt: say, Southern Sydney, been around since 1899, been through ups 176 00:09:55,350 --> 00:09:57,660 Professor Tim Harcourt: and downs as a family- run business, but doing very, 177 00:09:57,660 --> 00:10:02,190 Professor Tim Harcourt: very well indeed. And, they've got a master craftsman there 178 00:10:02,190 --> 00:10:05,340 Professor Tim Harcourt: who is a complete rockstar in China, because he goes 179 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:08,610 Professor Tim Harcourt: over and demonstrates how he puts the mattresses together. And 180 00:10:08,610 --> 00:10:10,380 Professor Tim Harcourt: he's got a fan club. He's amazing. 181 00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:11,130 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 182 00:10:11,850 --> 00:10:14,190 Professor Tim Harcourt: But, as Kevin Rudd said, it's a great export market. 183 00:10:14,190 --> 00:10:17,550 Professor Tim Harcourt: Now, going in and investing, going in and doing joint 184 00:10:17,550 --> 00:10:20,130 Professor Tim Harcourt: ventures, that's got to be a little bit more trickier, 185 00:10:20,130 --> 00:10:22,679 Professor Tim Harcourt: because at the end of the day, the Chinese state owns 186 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:23,730 Professor Tim Harcourt: your assets pretty much. 187 00:10:24,030 --> 00:10:26,820 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I mean, I suppose the upshot of all this 188 00:10:26,820 --> 00:10:30,540 Sean Aylmer: is that, whilst COVID has dominated everything for the last 189 00:10:30,540 --> 00:10:34,800 Sean Aylmer: three years, and we've spoken lots about tariffs and impositions 190 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,780 Sean Aylmer: on Australian exports- imports into China, we kind of need, 191 00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:41,400 Sean Aylmer: I mean, and I think your show says this, we 192 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,079 Sean Aylmer: need to look beyond that. 193 00:10:44,010 --> 00:10:47,730 Professor Tim Harcourt: Yeah, no, that's right. And I mean, I just think about the growth of 194 00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:52,140 Professor Tim Harcourt: the middle class in China and in Southeast Asia, and 195 00:10:52,140 --> 00:10:55,320 Professor Tim Harcourt: the importance now that Japan and Korea are showing, and 196 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,230 Professor Tim Harcourt: the emerging markets that, I do in The Airport Economist, 197 00:10:58,230 --> 00:11:02,969 Professor Tim Harcourt: the Middle East and in Latin America, COVID did stop 198 00:11:02,970 --> 00:11:06,630 Professor Tim Harcourt: us in our tracks, but exports kept going, particularly rocks 199 00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:09,209 Professor Tim Harcourt: and crops. So, in some ways, it's shown to us 200 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:13,290 Professor Tim Harcourt: that the international trading system still goes on, in spite 201 00:11:13,290 --> 00:11:15,179 Professor Tim Harcourt: one of the biggest crises since world war II. 202 00:11:15,929 --> 00:11:17,910 Sean Aylmer: Tim, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 203 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,020 Professor Tim Harcourt: Thanks very much, Sean. 204 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:23,489 Sean Aylmer: That's Professor Tim Harcourt from UTS, author, podcast host and 205 00:11:23,490 --> 00:11:27,270 Sean Aylmer: presenter of the television show, After the Pandemic. Find out 206 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:31,140 Sean Aylmer: more at theairporteconomist. com. This is a Fear & Greed Daily 207 00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:34,290 Sean Aylmer: Interview. Remember, you should get professional advice before making any 208 00:11:34,290 --> 00:11:37,350 Sean Aylmer: investment decisions. Join us every morning for the full episode 209 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:40,620 Sean Aylmer: of Fear & Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean 210 00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:41,729 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Enjoy your day.