1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,540 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. Today 2 00:00:06,540 --> 00:00:08,820 Sean Aylmer: we're taking a look at one of the most successful 3 00:00:08,820 --> 00:00:12,539 Sean Aylmer: franchises in Australia, and certainly one of the most recognizable. 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,489 Sean Aylmer: Jim Penman started a mowing business in 1982. Jim's Mowing 5 00:00:17,489 --> 00:00:21,119 Sean Aylmer: became the largest franchise chain in Australia, and since then 6 00:00:21,329 --> 00:00:23,970 Sean Aylmer: more divisions have been added to the company. Everything from 7 00:00:23,970 --> 00:00:27,599 Sean Aylmer: Jim's Cleaning and Jim's Handyman to Jim's Fencing and Jim's 8 00:00:27,599 --> 00:00:32,219 Sean Aylmer: Dog Wash. Jim's Group now has over 4, 300 franchisees 9 00:00:32,219 --> 00:00:36,299 Sean Aylmer: and a turnover of approximately 500 million. Jim, welcome to 10 00:00:36,299 --> 00:00:36,870 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:37,470 --> 00:00:38,010 Jim Penman: Good morning. 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,430 Sean Aylmer: What an incredible story. How do you go from a 13 00:00:41,430 --> 00:00:45,479 Sean Aylmer: mowing business to a global franchise across dozens of divisions? 14 00:00:46,409 --> 00:00:49,348 Jim Penman: Quite unexpected, actually. The only reason I started mowing lawns 15 00:00:49,348 --> 00:00:51,539 Jim Penman: because it was my student job. And then when I 16 00:00:51,570 --> 00:00:54,240 Jim Penman: got myself a PhD in history, what do you do 17 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,401 Jim Penman: with a PhD in history? You mow lawns for a- 18 00:00:56,401 --> 00:00:57,300 Sean Aylmer: You mow lawns. Clearly. 19 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,640 Jim Penman: Not without any much idea it would come to anything. 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,500 Jim Penman: It just turned out to be unexpectedly successful. 21 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,289 Sean Aylmer: Why do you think it was successful in those early 22 00:01:04,289 --> 00:01:07,319 Sean Aylmer: days? What is it that gave it the momentum to 23 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:07,980 Sean Aylmer: keep growing? 24 00:01:08,130 --> 00:01:12,150 Jim Penman: I have a very intense, emotional attitude towards customer service. 25 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,480 Jim Penman: As an individual contractor, I hated letting customers down. I 26 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,449 Jim Penman: just used to do everything possible to do an immaculate 27 00:01:18,450 --> 00:01:21,240 Jim Penman: job, to be reliable, to delight my customers, so I 28 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,300 Jim Penman: found it very, very easy to find customers. And a 29 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:26,669 Jim Penman: simple idea when I franchised, which is largely in self- 30 00:01:26,670 --> 00:01:29,519 Jim Penman: defense against a rival, I had the same attitude. I said, " 31 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,330 Jim Penman: Okay, my franchisees and my primary customers, how can I 32 00:01:33,330 --> 00:01:34,830 Jim Penman: make them into raving fans?" 33 00:01:35,069 --> 00:01:37,140 Sean Aylmer: In the late '80s, I can't quite remember, I was 34 00:01:37,140 --> 00:01:41,219 Sean Aylmer: housesitting my brother's house, and of course being very young 35 00:01:41,219 --> 00:01:43,980 Sean Aylmer: and a student myself, got Jim's Mowing to come and 36 00:01:43,980 --> 00:01:48,119 Sean Aylmer: do some work around the garden. A tree was accidentally 37 00:01:48,119 --> 00:01:50,640 Sean Aylmer: cut down and I actually rang and spoke to you 38 00:01:50,730 --> 00:01:53,880 Sean Aylmer: back then, and the incredible thing about that was that 39 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,980 Sean Aylmer: you were prepared to come out and say, " We can 40 00:01:55,980 --> 00:01:58,260 Sean Aylmer: replace that tree." When I actually took a better look 41 00:01:58,260 --> 00:01:59,849 Sean Aylmer: at it, I thought it's probably more weed than trees, 42 00:01:59,849 --> 00:02:02,520 Sean Aylmer: so it didn't happen. But this was in your early 43 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,500 Sean Aylmer: days, and I do remember this story. I mean, that's 44 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:07,230 Sean Aylmer: why I've always thought of Jim's Mowing is that you 45 00:02:07,410 --> 00:02:09,360 Sean Aylmer: personally said, " We'll come and put a new tree in." 46 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,720 Jim Penman: Yes, absolutely. We do it all the time. There's actually a rule 47 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,238 Jim Penman: in the office, that if a client rings a second 48 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,330 Jim Penman: time without a complaint having been dealt with, they go 49 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:20,159 Jim Penman: straight to me and I will deal with it and I 50 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:21,899 Jim Penman: will sit on it and I'll make it fixed, no 51 00:02:21,900 --> 00:02:23,010 Jim Penman: matter what it costs. 52 00:02:23,219 --> 00:02:26,250 Sean Aylmer: Wow. Is that customer service the base of why you 53 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:29,220 Sean Aylmer: have grown and created this incredible franchise model? 54 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:33,030 Jim Penman: Yes, customer service, but particularly in relation to franchisees. If 55 00:02:33,030 --> 00:02:36,660 Jim Penman: anything, my number one client is my franchisee, not even 56 00:02:36,660 --> 00:02:40,769 Jim Penman: my customer. Making them successful is my main effort in life. 57 00:02:41,250 --> 00:02:44,040 Sean Aylmer: Why did you go down that model rather than using subcontractors? 58 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,150 Jim Penman: Quality issues. When I was mowing lawns myself, I was 59 00:02:48,150 --> 00:02:50,700 Jim Penman: good at it. I really was. My customers would look 60 00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:52,559 Jim Penman: at what I'd done and say, " I'd never knew my 61 00:02:52,559 --> 00:02:53,699 Jim Penman: lawn could look this good." 62 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:54,930 Sean Aylmer: Particularly for a historian. 63 00:02:55,889 --> 00:02:58,000 Jim Penman: I just had this passion. I have (inaudible) it's 64 00:02:58,109 --> 00:03:01,950 Jim Penman: not financial, it's just I hate letting customers down. If 65 00:03:01,950 --> 00:03:04,590 Jim Penman: I pass one of my guys who's mowing a lawn 66 00:03:04,620 --> 00:03:06,870 Jim Penman: and I can see a blade of grass coming out 67 00:03:06,870 --> 00:03:08,729 Jim Penman: of the edge of the nature strip, I will stop 68 00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:11,309 Jim Penman: and say, " Why can't you see that?" I get very 69 00:03:11,309 --> 00:03:14,370 Jim Penman: uptight about such things. I just hate letting customers down. 70 00:03:14,549 --> 00:03:18,239 Jim Penman: I actually look through every low- ranked survey that we 71 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,430 Jim Penman: run in our system, everybody who gives us less than 72 00:03:20,430 --> 00:03:22,500 Jim Penman: five stars with a comment. I have a look at 73 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:24,900 Jim Penman: that and I try to work out what we can do 74 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:26,850 Jim Penman: about that. I'm obsessional about it. 75 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,429 Sean Aylmer: How do you manage quality control? Because at the end 76 00:03:29,429 --> 00:03:33,030 Sean Aylmer: of the day, that's everything. I will ring your guys 77 00:03:33,150 --> 00:03:35,160 Sean Aylmer: if they've done a good job. I mean, repeat business 78 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,440 Sean Aylmer: must be everything. I appreciate what you're saying, but there 79 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,470 Sean Aylmer: must be some people who don't do a great job. 80 00:03:40,980 --> 00:03:44,219 Jim Penman: Yes. In the beginning, the fact that we actually had 81 00:03:44,220 --> 00:03:46,800 Jim Penman: a franchise and they owned the business was an incentive 82 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,759 Jim Penman: for service. The franchising gave a better service than we 83 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:54,600 Jim Penman: did as individual contracts, subcontractors. But over time, what I've 84 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,390 Jim Penman: done is put systems in place. First of all, starting 85 00:03:57,390 --> 00:04:00,660 Jim Penman: to record complaints properly, and then taking action if there's 86 00:04:00,660 --> 00:04:03,750 Jim Penman: too many complaints. And secondly, and the big thing about 87 00:04:03,750 --> 00:04:06,629 Jim Penman: five, six years ago, we put a survey system where 88 00:04:06,630 --> 00:04:10,619 Jim Penman: we text our customers after the job. Based on the 89 00:04:10,619 --> 00:04:13,260 Jim Penman: response to that, then we put a rating in and 90 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:17,370 Jim Penman: we monitor more complaints. What's actually happened is that... Just 91 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:20,309 Jim Penman: to give you some idea, before I started franchising, about 92 00:04:20,309 --> 00:04:23,940 Jim Penman: half of the messages coming into my call center were 93 00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:27,270 Jim Penman: complaints. It went down to... Eventually after a few years, 94 00:04:27,270 --> 00:04:31,260 Jim Penman: it was 5%. Now it's only a fraction of 1%. And 95 00:04:31,290 --> 00:04:34,770 Jim Penman: every time we push for better customer service, what we 96 00:04:34,770 --> 00:04:36,270 Jim Penman: find is we get more customers. 97 00:04:36,420 --> 00:04:39,210 Sean Aylmer: What's interesting there is that you are using technology in 98 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:41,550 Sean Aylmer: an industry which is very labor intensive. 99 00:04:41,849 --> 00:04:45,089 Jim Penman: Yes. Actually, of my 70- odd people that I employ 100 00:04:45,089 --> 00:04:48,178 Jim Penman: directly, most of them are actually in technology, mostly in software 101 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:51,870 Jim Penman: development. We're actually developing a system now, a new system 102 00:04:51,870 --> 00:04:56,250 Jim Penman: of contract database, a system of running a business which, 103 00:04:56,250 --> 00:04:59,010 Jim Penman: I believe, will cut our complaints down to a fraction 104 00:04:59,010 --> 00:05:00,900 Jim Penman: of what they are now. It'll do things like it 105 00:05:00,900 --> 00:05:03,900 Jim Penman: will actually warn people if they don't ring back, it 106 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:07,020 Jim Penman: will warn the franchisor if somebody hasn't called back. It will 107 00:05:07,020 --> 00:05:09,630 Jim Penman: actually warn us if a quote isn't done properly. It 108 00:05:09,630 --> 00:05:12,180 Jim Penman: would text clients with details of appointments. There's a whole 109 00:05:12,180 --> 00:05:14,460 Jim Penman: stack of things we are doing right now, which I 110 00:05:14,460 --> 00:05:16,830 Jim Penman: expect to see our complaints go down more and more 111 00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:17,250 Jim Penman: and more. 112 00:05:17,309 --> 00:05:19,349 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Jim, we'll be back in a minute. 113 00:05:24,029 --> 00:05:27,330 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Jim Penman, founder and CEO 114 00:05:27,330 --> 00:05:29,820 Sean Aylmer: of Jim's Group. How did you move into cleaning and 115 00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:33,029 Sean Aylmer: handyman and Jim's Dog Wash? Was it just a natural 116 00:05:33,029 --> 00:05:35,400 Sean Aylmer: progression from the lawn mowing business? 117 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,820 Jim Penman: You'd love if I had some far- sighted vision, but I 118 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,789 Jim Penman: really didn't. When I thought of the idea of cleaning, 119 00:05:41,789 --> 00:05:46,680 Jim Penman: I thought, cleaning, our franchise system might suit that, but nobody's 120 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,779 Jim Penman: going to want to get cleaning done by a guy 121 00:05:48,779 --> 00:05:50,070 Jim Penman: in a beard and a hat who looks like a 122 00:05:50,070 --> 00:05:53,039 Jim Penman: gardener, which is me, of course. So, I started this 123 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,001 Jim Penman: thing called Sunlite, S- U- N- L- I- T- E, (inaudible) 124 00:05:56,001 --> 00:05:57,719 Jim Penman: , so I put a different name on. Sold a 125 00:05:57,719 --> 00:06:00,570 Jim Penman: couple of franchises, couldn't find work, gave them their money 126 00:06:00,570 --> 00:06:03,240 Jim Penman: back, shut it down. Somebody came to me and said, " 127 00:06:03,420 --> 00:06:06,000 Jim Penman: What about doing Jim's Cleaning?" And I said, "No, that won't work, 128 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,248 Jim Penman: because it's a gardening image." He said, " It will work." 129 00:06:08,249 --> 00:06:11,160 Jim Penman: I said, " No, it won't." He said, " Okay, we'll do it ourselves. We'll give 130 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,440 Jim Penman: it a try." So, I said, " All right, okay. You 131 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,368 Jim Penman: give it a try." It works. Strange thing is, you 132 00:06:17,369 --> 00:06:20,820 Jim Penman: can have a woman actually washing dogs or doing bookkeeping 133 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:24,690 Jim Penman: or cleaning or whatever, and (inaudible) just fine. 134 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:29,400 Sean Aylmer: Onto the others, the fencing and dog wash and things 135 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,860 Sean Aylmer: like that, they're same story or just progressions? 136 00:06:32,099 --> 00:06:35,309 Jim Penman: Most people came to us, actually. Not many divisions I 137 00:06:35,309 --> 00:06:37,350 Jim Penman: actually started myself. Dog Wash was one of them, as 138 00:06:37,350 --> 00:06:40,290 Jim Penman: a matter of fact. But what actually matters, we have 139 00:06:40,980 --> 00:06:45,899 Jim Penman: a very internally- entrepreneurial system. Divisions are actually run by 140 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:49,019 Jim Penman: individuals, developed by individuals, not by the head office normally, 141 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,839 Jim Penman: apart from mowing, of course, in the beginning. And the 142 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,540 Jim Penman: franchisors who look after the franchisees, they've also got their 143 00:06:54,540 --> 00:06:57,150 Jim Penman: own businesses, so we have a lot of people driving 144 00:06:57,150 --> 00:06:57,990 Jim Penman: at different levels. 145 00:06:58,170 --> 00:06:59,340 Sean Aylmer: What about Jim's Podcasting? 146 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,059 Jim Penman: We like to stick to things we know about. I 147 00:07:03,059 --> 00:07:06,000 Jim Penman: come barely unstuck doing things that I don't know. I 148 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,980 Jim Penman: tried to run a factory to build trailers. That was 149 00:07:07,980 --> 00:07:10,830 Jim Penman: not a success. I wasn't very good at it, other 150 00:07:10,830 --> 00:07:13,860 Jim Penman: things too. I like to stick to the service industry. 151 00:07:14,010 --> 00:07:16,830 Sean Aylmer: I think that's actually a really salient point, is that you 152 00:07:16,830 --> 00:07:20,250 Sean Aylmer: are doing things that you understand and do yourself. Is 153 00:07:20,250 --> 00:07:20,639 Sean Aylmer: that right? 154 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:23,459 Jim Penman: Yeah, that's right. We don't even do site- based franchises 155 00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:25,739 Jim Penman: too. We're not trying to compete with the likes of Poolwerx 156 00:07:25,739 --> 00:07:28,889 Jim Penman: in that area, (inaudible) or whatever. They do it 157 00:07:28,889 --> 00:07:32,040 Jim Penman: very well. We are basically a service franchise. Even though 158 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:33,600 Jim Penman: it looks like we do a lot of different things, 159 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:36,030 Jim Penman: they're all very, very, very similar. 160 00:07:37,620 --> 00:07:39,030 Sean Aylmer: Are you still adding more divisions? 161 00:07:39,330 --> 00:07:41,520 Jim Penman: Yes. We're always looking at divisions, but we also... When 162 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,949 Jim Penman: the division doesn't work, we close it down, we pass 163 00:07:43,950 --> 00:07:47,430 Jim Penman: the franchise to another division. We had one on interior design, 164 00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:50,670 Jim Penman: for example. Didn't work out, so we gave them more cleaning franchises, and 165 00:07:50,670 --> 00:07:54,060 Jim Penman: one of them became very successful as a franchisor. Sometimes 166 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,210 Jim Penman: divisions don't work, sometimes you merge them with a different division. 167 00:07:57,990 --> 00:08:00,570 Sean Aylmer: How do you decide where the demand is? Because services 168 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:03,509 Sean Aylmer: is such a great sector in the Australian economy. What 169 00:08:03,509 --> 00:08:05,819 Sean Aylmer: sort of information do you take in to think, ah, 170 00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:08,400 Sean Aylmer: there could be demand for this new services area? 171 00:08:08,850 --> 00:08:10,440 Jim Penman: It's pretty obvious, actually. All you've got to do is 172 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,239 Jim Penman: to put a search term in Google and see how many AdWords there 173 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,919 Jim Penman: are. Everybody would know that pest control or dog washer, 174 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,679 Jim Penman: all those are pretty big areas of interest. But it's 175 00:08:19,679 --> 00:08:23,309 Jim Penman: not so much the service itself. We find it relatively 176 00:08:23,309 --> 00:08:26,280 Jim Penman: easy to find customers. It's the right person to drive 177 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,790 Jim Penman: the business. In divisions like dog wash and cleaning, for 178 00:08:29,790 --> 00:08:34,469 Jim Penman: example, we have absolutely exceptional leaders, people who drive it. 179 00:08:34,469 --> 00:08:37,500 Jim Penman: And in actual fact, these people are better at what they do than I am. I actually 180 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:39,780 Jim Penman: used to own the dog wash division and I gave 181 00:08:39,780 --> 00:08:43,350 Jim Penman: it to Sharon Connell, who was a successful franchise. I said, " I'll 182 00:08:43,350 --> 00:08:45,840 Jim Penman: give it to you, you just make it work." We 183 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,390 Jim Penman: had 60- something franchisees when she took it over about 184 00:08:48,390 --> 00:08:51,389 Jim Penman: three years ago. Now I've got about 160, because she's 185 00:08:51,389 --> 00:08:53,280 Jim Penman: a great lady and she's got a great systems. 186 00:08:53,610 --> 00:08:56,939 Sean Aylmer: Wow. COVID-19 last year, how did that affect Jim's Group? 187 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,830 Jim Penman: The lockdown was horrible. The Victorian lockdown was absolutely awful. 188 00:09:01,830 --> 00:09:05,160 Jim Penman: It was traumatic in the extreme. I know two franchisees... 189 00:09:05,190 --> 00:09:07,290 Jim Penman: 'cause we're in touch with franchisees, it's very close, it's 190 00:09:07,290 --> 00:09:10,980 Jim Penman: like a family. I knew two franchisees who had suicide attempts 191 00:09:10,980 --> 00:09:15,149 Jim Penman: within their own family. It was awful. It was distressing. 192 00:09:15,150 --> 00:09:16,799 Jim Penman: People would be ringing me up and say, " How long 193 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:19,290 Jim Penman: is this going to go on for?" That was terrible. 194 00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:21,780 Jim Penman: I got very, very angry about the whole thing, about 195 00:09:21,780 --> 00:09:25,350 Jim Penman: the way that my people were being treated for no reason. But, 196 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,050 Jim Penman: at the same time I have to say, it's been 197 00:09:28,050 --> 00:09:31,919 Jim Penman: brilliant for us. Because in actual fact, we have worked 198 00:09:32,009 --> 00:09:34,828 Jim Penman: all the way through. In fact, our work increased. We've 199 00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:39,270 Jim Penman: had the most incredible time ever. November, December basically melted 200 00:09:39,270 --> 00:09:42,630 Jim Penman: down the call center, so we've got the work, and 201 00:09:42,630 --> 00:09:45,059 Jim Penman: at a time a lot of people were out of work. That's one reason we've 202 00:09:45,059 --> 00:09:47,700 Jim Penman: grown so much. The problem we've got actually is that 203 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:50,219 Jim Penman: the work is beyond what we can handle. Traditionally, we've 204 00:09:50,219 --> 00:09:52,649 Jim Penman: had one in 10 jobs might be unserviced. Recently, it's 205 00:09:52,650 --> 00:09:55,470 Jim Penman: about one in six. Last year, is one in three. 206 00:09:55,650 --> 00:09:59,458 Jim Penman: This year, it's 35% of leads so far are unserviced. We 207 00:09:59,460 --> 00:10:02,130 Jim Penman: just cannot cope with this incredible demand, no matter how 208 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:02,940 Jim Penman: fast we grow. 209 00:10:02,970 --> 00:10:04,920 Sean Aylmer: Why do you think that is? Why has the demand 210 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:05,610 Sean Aylmer: jumped so much? 211 00:10:05,969 --> 00:10:08,639 Jim Penman: It's because of customer service. One of the things I 212 00:10:08,639 --> 00:10:11,159 Jim Penman: put in last year, for example, is a system which 213 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:12,988 Jim Penman: said that if you get a poor survey from a 214 00:10:12,990 --> 00:10:15,540 Jim Penman: customer, you can go back to the customer and do 215 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:17,970 Jim Penman: whatever you want to, to make the customer happy. And 216 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:20,880 Jim Penman: then I'll delete the survey personally or upgrade the rating 217 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,330 Jim Penman: or delete the complaint. That's given a tremendous drive to 218 00:10:24,330 --> 00:10:27,059 Jim Penman: give better service. And as we push for better service, 219 00:10:27,089 --> 00:10:30,510 Jim Penman: every time we improve our service, the amount of work 220 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:33,270 Jim Penman: comes in. The interesting thing about this is, our advertising 221 00:10:33,270 --> 00:10:36,240 Jim Penman: cost is actually going down. There's a certain amount in 222 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,300 Jim Penman: every contract that says, " This must be spent on advertising." 223 00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:41,639 Jim Penman: We've been going back to our franchisees and saying, " Guys, 224 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,639 Jim Penman: we can't spend this. Here, have it back again." We've 225 00:10:44,639 --> 00:10:47,069 Jim Penman: given away hundreds of thousands of dollars. 226 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,139 Sean Aylmer: I've never heard that from a franchisor. 227 00:10:49,259 --> 00:10:52,020 Jim Penman: Given back to the franchisees, hundreds of thousands of dollars 228 00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:54,240 Jim Penman: of advertising because we cannot spend the money. 229 00:10:54,570 --> 00:10:56,939 Sean Aylmer: You mentioned earlier on that your number one customer are 230 00:10:56,940 --> 00:11:00,660 Sean Aylmer: your franchisees. And then famously last year, you suggested that 231 00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:04,679 Sean Aylmer: franchisees continue servicing customers and ignore lockdowns, and you said 232 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,410 Sean Aylmer: you'd pay their fines. What sort of reaction did you 233 00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:08,010 Sean Aylmer: get to that? 234 00:11:09,179 --> 00:11:13,620 Jim Penman: I was inexperienced with the media. What I actually said 235 00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:17,370 Jim Penman: during the (inaudible) interview was, " The law of the 236 00:11:17,370 --> 00:11:21,900 Jim Penman: land is the Department of Human Services regulations, which clearly 237 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:25,590 Jim Penman: said that you could mow lawns and clean. Sole operator, 238 00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:28,348 Jim Penman: working alone." That was in the guidelines, that was the law. 239 00:11:28,530 --> 00:11:31,230 Jim Penman: The premier then goes on a press conference and he says, " 240 00:11:31,230 --> 00:11:33,749 Jim Penman: You can't have your lawns mowed or your houses cleaned." 241 00:11:33,809 --> 00:11:35,968 Jim Penman: That is not the law. The law is what the 242 00:11:35,969 --> 00:11:39,300 Jim Penman: department said. So I said, " We will tell our franchisees 243 00:11:39,630 --> 00:11:42,419 Jim Penman: to obey the law." And what happened, they said, " What 244 00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:44,190 Jim Penman: happens if they don't?" They said, " We will pay the 245 00:11:44,190 --> 00:11:47,130 Jim Penman: fines." That was because it was legal. As soon as 246 00:11:47,130 --> 00:11:51,000 Jim Penman: the government then shut down the... And said, " Okay, the regulations have 247 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,399 Jim Penman: changed." In other words, " Let's change the regulations depending what 248 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,280 Jim Penman: the premier said." Then I said, " Okay, stop working." I 249 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,399 Jim Penman: never ever advised my franchisees to dissipate the law, but 250 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,170 Jim Penman: the interview gave the impression that I did. 251 00:12:01,980 --> 00:12:04,200 Sean Aylmer: That's good. We've got that sorted. Tell me, you're also 252 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,390 Sean Aylmer: international with a presence in New Zealand, Canada, and the 253 00:12:06,390 --> 00:12:09,509 Sean Aylmer: UK. How are those businesses going? How do they handle 254 00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:11,610 Sean Aylmer: COVID-19? And what's the future for them? 255 00:12:12,420 --> 00:12:14,460 Jim Penman: Actually, not a (inaudible) effect. I mean, New Zealand 256 00:12:14,460 --> 00:12:17,248 Jim Penman: had their one- month lockdown, which was the first one. 257 00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:21,179 Jim Penman: Same story, they've coped with very well. I mean, overall 258 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:23,460 Jim Penman: it's been very good for business. One of the things, 259 00:12:23,460 --> 00:12:26,700 Jim Penman: people, when they can't go overseas and have holidays and 260 00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:28,590 Jim Penman: stuff, they've got to spend their money on something. And 261 00:12:28,590 --> 00:12:30,509 Jim Penman: most people are employed and you get all this government 262 00:12:30,509 --> 00:12:32,759 Jim Penman: money, so there's a lot of money squashing around the 263 00:12:32,759 --> 00:12:36,119 Jim Penman: economy, so it really has pretty good effect overall. I'm 264 00:12:36,119 --> 00:12:37,740 Jim Penman: not saying I'm in favor of it, I think it's 265 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:39,900 Jim Penman: a horrible thing and it's terrible, so many people have 266 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:42,750 Jim Penman: died. But at the same time, for business point of view, 267 00:12:42,750 --> 00:12:43,830 Jim Penman: it's been very good for us. 268 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:50,368 Sean Aylmer: We'll be back with more in a moment. I am 269 00:12:50,370 --> 00:12:53,549 Sean Aylmer: talking to Jim's Group founder and CEO, Jim Penman. The 270 00:12:53,549 --> 00:12:55,110 Sean Aylmer: other thing that you've done recently, which I think was 271 00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:58,410 Sean Aylmer: really interesting, was suggesting that people who aren't working at 272 00:12:58,410 --> 00:13:00,750 Sean Aylmer: the moment or potentially retirees come out of retirement and 273 00:13:00,750 --> 00:13:02,760 Sean Aylmer: take on a franchise. How's that gone? 274 00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:06,240 Jim Penman: It's been great. One of my people, I just rang 275 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,939 Jim Penman: him, my mate... I ring people on major anniversaries. I 276 00:13:08,940 --> 00:13:11,160 Jim Penman: rang him on his 10- year anniversary. This was a 277 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,860 Jim Penman: guy who was 78, and he said he made more 278 00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:16,530 Jim Penman: money mowing lawns in his 70s than he ever did 279 00:13:16,530 --> 00:13:18,120 Jim Penman: as a manager of a Bunnings early in life. 280 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:19,080 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. 281 00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:21,300 Jim Penman: But the point of it is though, this idea that you've 282 00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:24,270 Jim Penman: got to retire at 65 and that you're decrepit has- been, you're going 283 00:13:24,270 --> 00:13:26,159 Jim Penman: to shuffle around with the rest of your life, it's 284 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,090 Jim Penman: ridiculous. It's so outdated. I turn 69 next month and 285 00:13:30,090 --> 00:13:32,819 Jim Penman: I am going full- on. I'm just getting started. I 286 00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:36,240 Jim Penman: run every day, or I work for several hours, hard 287 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,270 Jim Penman: work on my farm. I mean, we're not old anymore. 288 00:13:40,740 --> 00:13:43,890 Jim Penman: 70 is the new 30, as far as I'm concerned. I'm full of energy and full of ideas. 289 00:13:44,130 --> 00:13:46,708 Jim Penman: And so many of my franchisees are actually in their 290 00:13:46,708 --> 00:13:50,069 Jim Penman: 60s and even 70s, and they're doing very, very well. 291 00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:52,440 Sean Aylmer: And I think if you're doing that business when you're 292 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,570 Sean Aylmer: in your 60s and 70s, you're very serious about what 293 00:13:54,570 --> 00:13:55,920 Sean Aylmer: you're trying to do as well. 294 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,099 Jim Penman: Yeah. It's also the thing too, you have this ridiculous 295 00:13:59,099 --> 00:14:02,070 Jim Penman: situation where you work flat out to 65, then they give 296 00:14:02,070 --> 00:14:04,019 Jim Penman: you a gold watch and you retire and you're a has- 297 00:14:04,020 --> 00:14:07,920 Jim Penman: been. That's not a natural way to live. What actually 298 00:14:07,950 --> 00:14:10,710 Jim Penman: tends to happen, as you get older, you just calm 299 00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:13,860 Jim Penman: down a bit. In your 50s, maybe you're working 50 300 00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:16,290 Jim Penman: hours a week, and then in your 60s, you're dropping 301 00:14:16,290 --> 00:14:18,120 Jim Penman: back to 35 hours a week, and then in your 302 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,580 Jim Penman: 70s, you're down to 15 hours a week, and then 303 00:14:20,580 --> 00:14:22,440 Jim Penman: in your 80s, you may be down to 10 hours a 304 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,530 Jim Penman: week. But you're still working. They've actually done a study to show 305 00:14:25,530 --> 00:14:29,340 Jim Penman: that unemployment is really, really, really bad for people, psychologically, 306 00:14:29,340 --> 00:14:33,059 Jim Penman: mentally, physically, every other way, but even working one day 307 00:14:33,059 --> 00:14:36,450 Jim Penman: a week is actually really good for you. So why 308 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:39,000 Jim Penman: should you? And we have special contracts that actually allow 309 00:14:39,179 --> 00:14:42,149 Jim Penman: our people to slow down. They pay less fees. We 310 00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:43,500 Jim Penman: call them retirement contracts. 311 00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:46,620 Sean Aylmer: Wow. It gives people a purpose. When you are 70, the 312 00:14:47,190 --> 00:14:48,750 Sean Aylmer: last thing I want to do is be watching TV 313 00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:51,300 Sean Aylmer: at 70, or playing lawn bowls. I want to be working. 314 00:14:51,690 --> 00:14:54,029 Jim Penman: Particularly when you've got something like lawn mowing too, because 315 00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:55,469 Jim Penman: one of the things I'm very interested in is the 316 00:14:55,469 --> 00:14:59,129 Jim Penman: science of health and happiness. One of the things that's 317 00:14:59,129 --> 00:15:02,580 Jim Penman: most associated with happiness, with health, with good mood, with 318 00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:06,360 Jim Penman: everything, is exercise. And the other thing is being outside, 319 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,599 Jim Penman: in green areas. What better job than lawn mowing? I 320 00:15:09,599 --> 00:15:12,420 Jim Penman: mean, honestly, it's so much fun. I love being outside, 321 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:14,279 Jim Penman: gardening. I really enjoy it. 322 00:15:15,299 --> 00:15:18,780 Sean Aylmer: Almost 40 years on, clearly you are not thinking about pulling up 323 00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:22,350 Sean Aylmer: stumps. You've considered an IPO previously. Is that something that 324 00:15:22,350 --> 00:15:24,270 Sean Aylmer: you'd go down? I mean, where do you think the 325 00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:26,190 Sean Aylmer: business will go in the next decade or so? 326 00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:28,319 Jim Penman: I don't think we'll go that way at all. One 327 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,320 Jim Penman: of the problems with public companies, they tend to be 328 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,199 Jim Penman: very short- term thinking. We never think that way in 329 00:15:34,199 --> 00:15:36,719 Jim Penman: Jim... It's always long- term. What is in the interest 330 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,620 Jim Penman: of franchisees? What is in the interest of clients? What's the interest 331 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:43,440 Jim Penman: of staff? I don't think being a public company is 332 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,370 Jim Penman: great. I'd be happy to be $ 1 billion company and 333 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:50,670 Jim Penman: still stay private. I've got actually 10 children, and one 334 00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:53,309 Jim Penman: or two of those have got very good potential heirs, 335 00:15:53,309 --> 00:15:55,890 Jim Penman: so I'm hoping that the Jim's will go on for 336 00:15:55,890 --> 00:15:57,150 Jim Penman: another generation, at least. 337 00:15:57,180 --> 00:16:00,270 Sean Aylmer: 10 kids, Jim, you're bearing the lead there. Really? How 338 00:16:00,270 --> 00:16:01,080 Sean Aylmer: old are your kids? 339 00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:03,660 Jim Penman: The oldest ones are in their 30s. My youngest is 340 00:16:03,660 --> 00:16:04,649 Jim Penman: just turning 12. 341 00:16:04,950 --> 00:16:07,980 Sean Aylmer: Oh, wow. That's fantastic. I live in a household with 342 00:16:07,980 --> 00:16:10,440 Sean Aylmer: eight kids and I thought I was doing well. But 343 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,089 Sean Aylmer: you got 10, that's even better. 344 00:16:12,209 --> 00:16:15,840 Jim Penman: Children are great. The greatest joys in life. There's one 345 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,600 Jim Penman: saying that I really believe in, " No other success can 346 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,070 Jim Penman: compensate for failure in the home." 347 00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:22,530 Sean Aylmer: That is a beautiful saying. I'm going to stick with 348 00:16:22,530 --> 00:16:24,270 Sean Aylmer: it, Jim. Thanks for talking to Fear and Greed. 349 00:16:24,540 --> 00:16:25,440 Jim Penman: You're welcome, anytime. 350 00:16:25,710 --> 00:16:28,380 Sean Aylmer: That was Jim Penman, founder and CEO of Jim's Group.