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Speaker 1: Approche production.

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Speaker 2: This is the final episode of Who's to Blame Now.

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Speaker 2: We set out from the start to try and show

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Speaker 2: you all the different aspects to what a complex issue

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Speaker 2: youth crime is. We've heard from offenders and victims and

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Speaker 2: the people that are trying to solve the problem. We

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Speaker 2: never set out to give the answer to the question,

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Speaker 2: but we also know depending on where you sit in

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Speaker 2: the community, everyone has a very different view. We're getting

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Speaker 2: close to an election in Queensland, so every party has

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Speaker 2: their solution to the problem and a campaign to match.

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Speaker 2: From the outset, we decided not to try and make

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Speaker 2: this political, but more to give you multiviewpoints on how

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Speaker 2: to make your own decisions. However, we won't shy away

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Speaker 2: from the recent stats around Queensland juveniles who breached bail

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Speaker 2: and we're given a slap on the wrists from courts.

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Speaker 2: Recent data said that sixteen yews were sentenced for breaching

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Speaker 2: bail from March to June of twenty two three. The

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Speaker 2: most common penalty was a reprimand in twelve cases, followed

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Speaker 2: by a good behavior bond in three cases at a

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Speaker 2: court diversional referral in one case. We've heard from Lee

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Speaker 2: Lovell that one of his offenders was out on bail

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Speaker 2: when he killed Lee's wife, Emma. One of the boys

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Speaker 2: that was in Lee's house that night has still not

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Speaker 2: been sentenced. However, one has and that happened on Lee's

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Speaker 2: birthday this year in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I suppose, like leading up to that, I've

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Speaker 3: had like a couple of meetings with the DPP and

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Speaker 3: they because under Queensland law, like the maximum sentence for

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Speaker 3: them because unfortunately they committed the defense when they were

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Speaker 3: a youth, you know, not technically an adult, was like

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Speaker 3: ten years.

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Speaker 1: But actually then.

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Speaker 3: Initially weren't going to go for a heinous crime verdict,

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Speaker 3: but they turned round to me eventually said that, you know,

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Speaker 3: we are going to do go for it a heinous

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Speaker 3: crime verdict. You know, I suppose I was pleased that

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Speaker 3: they were going to at least a try for the

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Speaker 3: heinous crime because I knew that then potentially we could

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Speaker 3: get more than ten years. But like within the first hearing,

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Speaker 3: like because the DPP were just trying to get a

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Speaker 3: because I suppose, in to a certain extent in our

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Speaker 3: case was pretty unique about what happened. So then they

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Speaker 3: were trying to find a comparable case to go against,

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Speaker 3: and there was another case there where within that one

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Speaker 3: there was some three people who got in an elderly

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Speaker 3: couple's house during the day. The old guy was like

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Speaker 3: stad once by a sixteen year old girl. And within

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Speaker 3: that case that person had got like fourteen years. So

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Speaker 3: I remember the judge saying to the prosecutor, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: so if you are successful with a hangless crime verdict,

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Speaker 3: what do you think would be the length of sentence

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Speaker 3: you want? And he was like, well, based on each

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Speaker 3: other case, then I think like for fourteen years. So

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Speaker 3: when it came to judge handing down it like at

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Speaker 3: the time, that's that's what they went with and gave

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Speaker 3: like fourteen years.

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Speaker 4: Fighting back tears outside the Supreme Court a day after

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Speaker 4: Mother's Day and on his birthday, he was not here.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to bring it back. It would have

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Speaker 1: been a very different day. Was here.

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Speaker 4: Lee Lovell and his daughters have waited almost two years

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Speaker 4: for justice and today it was served Justice Sullivan, exercising

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Speaker 4: his power to sentence are now nineteen year old to

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Speaker 4: fourteen years behind bars for stabbing North Lake's mum, Emma

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Speaker 4: Lovell during a home invasion on Boxing Day twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 4: when they said.

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Speaker 3: They're going to get hainous crime, everyone was like yeah, great,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, we're not for a life sentence,

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Speaker 3: and then then he was like sort of fourteen years.

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Speaker 3: I just wo, why are you just give them fourteen years?

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Speaker 3: So then afterwards I hied, I've since tried appealing the

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Speaker 3: case or the sentence, but the DPP won't do nothing

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Speaker 3: about it. The sentence or got fourteen years is at

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Speaker 3: its level, the judge has done nothing wrong. There's nothing

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Speaker 3: really to appeal, so they won't do anything about it,

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Speaker 3: you know. So for me, there's got to be a

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Speaker 3: criterion that's met us, as you could say, or something's

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Speaker 3: gone wrong for me to be allowed to appeal it.

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Speaker 3: But you know, the guilty guy, he's allowed to appeal it,

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Speaker 3: which I think is like grossly unfair that, you know,

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Speaker 3: I tried saying to the DVP, like has there been

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Speaker 3: a youth that's got a life sentence? You know, like yeah,

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Speaker 3: but there was like more brutality or more planning or

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Speaker 3: something or within that, like maybe they actually planned to.

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Speaker 1: Go and kill someone. I suppose What gets me is that, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is my life.

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Speaker 3: This is like Emma's life, and to me, like justice

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Speaker 3: has not been reserved for fourteen years. Like you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe if they had have said like eighteen years, I

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Speaker 3: would have walked away and not said anything else about it.

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Speaker 3: But I just don't think it's fair. You know, the

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Speaker 3: guy wasn't thirteen, it wasn't fourteen. He was like four

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Speaker 3: months away from being at eighteen. Like my kids are

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Speaker 3: like now you know, borderline fifteen or seventeen. But I

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Speaker 3: think in Queensland, if I want to get their medical

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Speaker 3: records after fourteen, as a parent, I'm not allowed to

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Speaker 3: get it because I don't know, maybe the government sees

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Speaker 3: them as an adult.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm not allowed to touch them.

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Speaker 3: Like if at sixteen you want to go and see

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Speaker 3: a like a priest or something and say you want

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Speaker 3: to get married at sixteen, I'm pretty sure you can

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Speaker 3: go and do it. If you prove you're responsible enough

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Speaker 3: to get married at sixteen, you can do it. But

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Speaker 3: like any I as a law when it comes to

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Speaker 3: like a murder case, like oh for some reason like seventeen,

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Speaker 3: Like no, you're still a youth at that point. You know,

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Speaker 3: you're not an adult. It's like, well, how else is

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Speaker 3: he going to grow in four months? Like what's going

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Speaker 3: to change for him in four months that you're going

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Speaker 3: to say that. I don't know when it was all

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Speaker 3: these years ago that someone decided that, like an eighteen

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Speaker 3: you're then legally an adult.

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Speaker 1: Like, like I said, I just don't think it's fair.

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Speaker 3: I don't because it's not fourteen years, like you know,

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Speaker 3: he's only got to do seventy percent, which takes it

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Speaker 3: down to nine years.

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Speaker 1: And then because he's been.

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Speaker 3: Locked up at the time for five hundred and three days,

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Speaker 3: you know, he's going to be out in October thirty

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Speaker 3: thirty two. And to me, like, that's not good enough.

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Speaker 3: How can someone be out at like, you know, twenty

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Speaker 3: seven or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And I have to live their.

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Speaker 3: Lives and carry on, and the girls and I have

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Speaker 3: still got to suffer with them not being here, and

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Speaker 3: it's just not justice.

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Speaker 2: I guess when we spoke on the phone, one of

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Speaker 2: the things that run true for me is she said

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Speaker 2: he did an adult crime.

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Speaker 1: He should serve that old time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I do agree with that, and I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to change my view on that, But I don't

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Speaker 3: want this to get cleary or not massively into politics.

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Speaker 3: But I do think that, like, if you're going to

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Speaker 3: start murdering people, then you should be treated as an adult.

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Speaker 2: Remember one of the Yeths that killed Emma also attacked

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Speaker 2: Aaron and his wife Christine, just one year before.

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Speaker 5: I'm ultimately sure and the better people better place in

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Speaker 5: million experts in youth justice and how the legislation ought

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Speaker 5: to be applied by judges. But I felt some sense

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Speaker 5: that maybe that's a shift in the judicial system to

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Speaker 5: finally get some of these outcomes right.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I think for me, you've taken someone's life

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Speaker 6: fourteen years doesn't seem enough. I get that they use

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Speaker 6: but clearly lessons had not been learned from our incident,

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Speaker 6: and the judge was obviously constrained by the legal framework

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Speaker 6: and what the statute allows. But I think, you know,

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Speaker 6: certainly the sentences should be able to be higher, like

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Speaker 6: the legislative framework I think needs to be changed, particularly

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Speaker 6: in this circumstance where this individual had so many prize

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Speaker 6: that and one with you know, involving us, which you know,

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Speaker 6: a millimeter the surgeon said to you, a millimeter in

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Speaker 6: a different direction, your outcome or our outcome would have

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Speaker 6: been vastly different. So fourteen in that context, fourteen years

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Speaker 6: is not enough. In the context of the regime the

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Speaker 6: judge was dealing with, fourteen years was you know, pretty

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Speaker 6: much as serious as you can get, but it's still

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Speaker 6: not enough.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And look, I think I was thinking about the

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Speaker 5: slap on the wrist they got for us, you know,

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Speaker 5: so it's a big difference. So now it's a different charge,

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Speaker 5: but the slap on the wrist, and suddenly we've got

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Speaker 5: a charge now saying fourteen years for you know, a

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Speaker 5: youth offender.

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Speaker 7: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I thought, at least something's moving the right direction.

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Speaker 8: Maybe one of the things that keeps coming back to me,

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Speaker 8: and certainly in all the conversations I'm having, is that

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Speaker 8: along the way, the eighty three times before he killed Emma,

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Speaker 8: there would have been opportunities for intervention, and yours was

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Speaker 8: possibly one of the last opportunities, the true intervention where

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Speaker 8: a decision on more than unlawful wounding could have changed

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Speaker 8: an outcome for someone else.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I think the penalties just need to be tougher,

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Speaker 6: But also query whether you know some of these youths

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Speaker 6: who are from difficult backgrounds are getting the support that

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Speaker 6: they need to be able to change. But I think

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Speaker 6: it needs to go hand in hand because you can't

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Speaker 6: have an individual committing eighty four or eighty three offenses

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Speaker 6: until they actually, you know, kill someone. I mean, that's horrendous.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm just a little bit fed up with the

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Speaker 5: reactive approach to these sorts of issues. I think the judges.

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Speaker 1: Doing all they can.

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Speaker 5: Was very, very impressed with the judge who with the

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Speaker 5: offending of the individual we're talking about. I thought that

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Speaker 5: she didn't the best she could within the frame within

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Speaker 5: she's working as a judge to sentence and convict that offender,

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Speaker 5: having regard to the fact that charge was downgraded by

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Speaker 5: the DPP. And I'm not blaming anyone there either, But

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Speaker 5: as Christine just said, and I didn't realize the rap

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Speaker 5: sheet was that long, how possibly does someone get through

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Speaker 5: a rap sheet that long and it gets to a

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Speaker 5: point in time where someone like how a lover was

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Speaker 5: killed before then suddenly there's a bit of noise about, well,

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Speaker 5: let's put in place ten point plans and change legislation

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Speaker 5: and do other things. It's just been too slow, ineffective.

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Speaker 5: I don't have the solutions. But if you're talking about

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Speaker 5: who's to blame. You know, I feel that we're talking

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Speaker 5: about a youth crisis. So we're talking about people who

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Speaker 5: are engaging in this sort of conduct from very young

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Speaker 5: age of even less than being teenagers. Right, So where's

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Speaker 5: the most impactful point in someone's life at that stage

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Speaker 5: that programs or intervention mechanisms can be thought through and

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Speaker 5: put in place, and really the biggest person government The

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Speaker 5: mechanism is education and schooling. Except that a lot of

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Speaker 5: these young offenders have had very, very difficult upbringings. But

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Speaker 5: we're in the so called lucky country, right, We've got

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Speaker 5: the mechanisms to support people and to do something other

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Speaker 5: than allow someone to go before a court and have

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Speaker 5: eighty two offenses before the community is protected. I mean,

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Speaker 5: one of the things about youth's right, you know, there's

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Speaker 5: no recording of these convictions. They have a rap sheet,

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Speaker 5: they remain unrecorded, so you know that has an impact

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Speaker 5: on subsequent sentencing processes. You know, for any adult who

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Speaker 5: engages in those sorts of crimes and has a rap

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Speaker 5: sheet that long, they'll definitely have recorded convictions and they

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Speaker 5: simply won't get away with it and be able to

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Speaker 5: sort of get to eighty two before whatever the number

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Speaker 5: is before the eighty third one is at death. I

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Speaker 5: suspect there's many mechanism within the legal system that can

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Speaker 5: be adjusted so that that sort of scenario never happens again.

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Speaker 5: But it's complex. I don't have all of the solutions,

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Speaker 5: but there's sort surely got to be if we invested

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Speaker 5: time in understanding worldwide, what's what are other governments, what

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Speaker 5: other countries doing, what are people doing that ultimately results

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Speaker 5: in an effective outcome or at least reduces crime rates

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Speaker 5: at least it protects the community a little better than

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Speaker 5: we're doing now. We need to be looking at it

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Speaker 5: and understanding whether that's something that here in Queensland, here

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Speaker 5: in Australia might be effective to prevent the outcome that

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Speaker 5: we're experiencing, the outcomeing mlevels experienced.

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Speaker 2: So what needs to change in Lee's mind to help

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Speaker 2: fix this use crime issue?

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Speaker 3: For me, Like, I don't, I don't think I think

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Speaker 3: the ten year maximum sentence should be scrapped. I think

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Speaker 3: that like that's that's at the moment that legislation is

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Speaker 3: hindering the justice system from dishing out harsher sentences. You know,

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Speaker 3: I think personally like the way they should do it

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Speaker 3: is like they should maybe it's not just up to

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Speaker 3: a judge.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they should have a group of people.

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Speaker 3: Defining a sentence length, like I understand, like maybe if

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Speaker 3: you're like sort of thirteen or fourteen, or maybe you

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Speaker 3: stab someone, but maybe it's like self defense, you know,

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Speaker 3: like maybe you're running away from someone or I don't know,

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Speaker 3: like in that scenario, then maybe maybe it should be

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Speaker 3: less of a sentence. But like if you're like you know,

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Speaker 3: borderline eighteen and you're breaking into people's houses at nighttime

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Speaker 3: with a knife, then I don't believe you.

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Speaker 1: Should be getting ten years.

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Speaker 3: I think that there should be more percentence for that,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I think it should be like a

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Speaker 3: sliding scan in between, like what why can it not be?

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's not just us.

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Speaker 3: There's like there's there's like plenty of people out there,

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Speaker 3: like the like Matt Fields and Kate Lett that are like,

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Speaker 3: you know, the person involved in their case got did

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Speaker 3: you get like eight years or something? I'm not too

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Speaker 3: sure on that, but he got like, you know, it

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Speaker 3: would never been not less than more than ten. It's

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Speaker 3: like Angus Beaumont, you know, I feel so sorry for

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Speaker 3: it for his parents, you know, Michelle and Ben, you

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Speaker 3: know them, they got like eight years or something. I

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Speaker 3: think the other one's due to be released in like

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Speaker 3: eighty months time or something from murdering Angus back in

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Speaker 3: like twenty twenty. And it's just it's discussing like how

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Speaker 3: people are getting away with that. Then you know there's

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Speaker 3: other people out there as well that we're suffering with this,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and even with like the Cathin you know,

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Speaker 3: in their case, I understand they didn't murder someone, but

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Speaker 3: they got like seven and eight years and then they've

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Speaker 3: only got to do fifty percent of that. And then

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Speaker 3: the judges turned around and said, well the conviction's not

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Speaker 3: to be recorded after eighteen. It's like, are you living

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Speaker 3: on planet Earth here? Like why are people not being

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Speaker 3: held accountable, you know, for what they're doing? Like as

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Speaker 3: much as like the government can change things, but ultimately,

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Speaker 3: I suppose to a certain it comes down to the.

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Speaker 1: Judges to enforce these rules as well.

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Speaker 3: You know, So if they're not the ones, you know,

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Speaker 3: to change things, how is it ever going to change?

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Speaker 3: But you know, in the UK, like there's been a

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Speaker 3: couple of instances really when like teams have murdered people

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Speaker 3: and they're getting like twenty two years minimums that the

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Speaker 3: judges aren't release see the names of these people because

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Speaker 3: it's like apparently like in the public interest, like why

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Speaker 3: are we not doing that here? Like you know, and

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Speaker 3: this is what angers me, like, you know, because the

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Speaker 3: courier mail, I don't know where they found these people.

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Speaker 3: They've done a thing the other day where they queried

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Speaker 3: people like, oh do you agree with like the LMP

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Speaker 3: slogan about adult chrome abu out time and they're like, oh, no,

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Speaker 3: definitely not should be doing that, you know, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: work or whatever. I'm guessing all those people did not

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Speaker 3: or have not suffered any you know, you know, crimes

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Speaker 3: to their families. And you know, maybe if this wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have happened to us, maybe I would be in agreement

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Speaker 3: with that. After losing my wife and the kids losing

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Speaker 3: their mum and like being a bit to like I

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Speaker 3: just can't get on board with what's happening nowadays. You know,

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Speaker 3: you know a lot of people would not agree with

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Speaker 3: my views, but I just think people need to be

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Speaker 3: locked up.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying everyone.

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Speaker 3: I understand there's a varying degrees of crimes being happening,

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Speaker 3: from people breaking the people's houses or.

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Speaker 1: Cars being stolen.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying everyone should be locked up for their

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Speaker 3: whole their life and get me wrong, but those core

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Speaker 3: crimes like murder and people need to be locked up

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Speaker 3: for that, and I'm not going to change my.

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Speaker 1: View on that.

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Speaker 2: Same On purpose we call this podcast Who's to Blame?

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Speaker 2: It was deliberate. What we've learned across the last forty

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Speaker 2: hours of interviews and discussions is that the answer to

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Speaker 2: that question who's to blame is more complicated than the

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Speaker 2: simplicity of the word blame. Will Smith, who runs a

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Speaker 2: successful youth reform and development program in Tasmania, has his

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Speaker 2: own view.

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Speaker 7: Who's to blame my honest opinion, not the police, not

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Speaker 7: government services, not the young people. I go back to

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Speaker 7: our puzzle piece analogy. You know, I think everyone plays

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Speaker 7: a role. I think technology is a massive contributor to

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Speaker 7: the way that young people are being brought up at

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Speaker 7: the moment, we're talking social media, social media, screen time,

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Speaker 7: you know, the content absorption of young people across various

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Speaker 7: platforms that's a segment of and community values. I just

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Speaker 7: think that the community values have changed a lot.

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Speaker 8: You know.

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Speaker 7: It's where we're so accustomed these days to seeing a

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Speaker 7: young person in need and stepping back as opposed to

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Speaker 7: stepping forward. A lot of the issues that could be

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Speaker 7: affected proactively with a lot of young people were identified

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Speaker 7: many years ago, before they stabbed people, before they broke

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Speaker 7: into a home, before they broke into a car. But

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Speaker 7: we turned our blind eye. We turned the blind eye

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Speaker 7: when they were at school and got suspended for the

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Speaker 7: first time. We turned the blind eye when we saw

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Speaker 7: the neighbors arguing and yelling and just thought that it

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Speaker 7: wasn't our business. We turned the blind eye where we

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Speaker 7: saw the kid walking down the street with no shoes

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Speaker 7: on and just thought, oh, oh, that's horrible. I'll tell

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Speaker 7: my friends at dinner tonight. We just I feel like

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Speaker 7: we're just living in a community at the moment where

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Speaker 7: we just were not taking responsibility for our young people.

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Speaker 7: Very quick to off shift the blame, very quick to criticize,

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Speaker 7: but no one's willing to actually step up and take responsibility.

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Speaker 7: And when community values change, community outcomes change. And I

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Speaker 7: think that's a massive contributor. I think there are plenty

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Speaker 7: of gaps in legislative provision. I think there are plenty

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Speaker 7: of gaps in bail processes. I think there are plenty

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Speaker 7: of gaps in you know, child safety protection service provisions

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Speaker 7: as well. But those gaps are going to We don't

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Speaker 7: live in a perfect system. I mean, thank god we

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Speaker 7: even have them in place, because many countries don't. It's

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Speaker 7: very quick to point out the gaps. We're not quick

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Speaker 7: to look within and go you know this whole retrig Well,

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Speaker 7: we work in the Middle East a lot, I mean

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Speaker 7: the Middle East, you know, there receivitism rates for young

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Speaker 7: people almost don't exist. Yeah, young people are disengaged and

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Speaker 7: they commit crime and are involved in you know, stuff

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Speaker 7: they shouldn't be. But receivitism doesn't exist because the community

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Speaker 7: steps forward. There's no police don't step forward. You know,

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Speaker 7: there are no service there's no child protection over there,

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Speaker 7: there's no youth justice. The community steps in. We all

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Speaker 7: play a role in taking care of our young people.

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Speaker 7: And I just think here in Australia, for some reason,

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Speaker 7: people are just continually stepping back from the role that

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Speaker 7: we all play. When community values drop, community outcomes drop,

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Speaker 7: and I think that's the biggest issue that we've got

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Speaker 7: at the moment. We all identified that young person early,

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Speaker 7: but no one did anything about it. So now we're

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Speaker 7: at the peak end of the system where unfortunately people

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Speaker 7: are dying, communities are unsafe. We all want to stand

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Speaker 7: up and blame someone, but we don't want to take

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Speaker 7: responsibility for the fact that we know over the last

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Speaker 7: ten years, never went and contributed to a youth program,

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Speaker 7: didn't knock on a neighbor's door and offer assistance, didn't

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Speaker 7: invite a young person around for dinner and help attribute values.

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Speaker 7: While dad was in prison or mum was sick in hospital.

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Speaker 7: We noticed that new family moving down the street, and

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Speaker 7: they come from a refugee background, or they come from

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Speaker 7: a low associate economic community, but we didn't invite them

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Speaker 7: around for the community barbecue, or we didn't ask if

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Speaker 7: they had someone to spend lunch with it Christmas, all

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Speaker 7: of those things. We're just I feel like we're just

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Speaker 7: becoming so disconnected from each other, and the people that

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Speaker 7: will suffer are the young people. And when young people suffer,

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Speaker 7: the community will suffer.

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Speaker 1: So I just feel like at the.

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Speaker 7: Moment, the outcomes that the community are getting are the

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Speaker 7: outcomes that the community is attributed. By stepping back years

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Speaker 7: and years ago, yeah, open your arms. These young people

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Speaker 7: are lovable, They're very likable, beautiful humans. They've got so

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Speaker 7: much potential. And from a bloke that, just to be honest,

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Speaker 7: hates working with kids, and I just, you know, I

399
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Speaker 7: just have passion in a lot of other areas, but

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Speaker 7: I just feel that this.

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Speaker 1: Is my calling.

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Speaker 7: I just have to do this at the moment. I just, yeah,

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Speaker 7: I just want to shake some people at times. And

404
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Speaker 7: you know, can't work with this young person they're two impossible,

405
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Speaker 7: is too hard. You've got to give up on them. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: well you didn't have to give up ten years ago

407
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Speaker 7: when they really needed it. So yeah, Unfortunately, now the

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Speaker 7: community pays for it. And it's horrible because these young

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Speaker 7: people are committing terrific crimes.

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Speaker 3: I do also understand that, like you know, youth crime

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Speaker 3: or like youth in general, like it is a big issue,

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Speaker 3: and maybe there's a lot of people out there that

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Speaker 3: do need support. But I think also it's not just

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Speaker 3: those individual people, but I feel that maybe that like

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Speaker 3: families need support as well, Like you know, if.

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Speaker 1: You don't know how to be a parent, or.

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Speaker 3: You know, you can't cook a meal or something, or

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Speaker 3: you don't know how to be a parent, you know,

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Speaker 3: you don't know how to teach respect them to kids,

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Speaker 3: that they should be more intense support for people, you know,

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Speaker 3: and then probably we wouldn't end up in these situations

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Speaker 3: where we are at the moment, Like I.

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Speaker 2: Want to leave the final words of this podcast to

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Speaker 2: lead level. Lee got the chance to tell one of

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Speaker 2: the youths that was charged with murder how it's impacted

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Speaker 2: him at his family.

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Speaker 3: I was asked if I want the right one, and

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Speaker 3: I decided that I would. In some ways it came

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Speaker 3: pretty easy, but you know, you just start somewhere and

430
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Speaker 3: then add to it. And I got one of my

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Speaker 3: friends sort of you know, cast eyes high over it,

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Speaker 3: and you sort of mentioned a couple of things. So

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Speaker 3: I didn't added to it, you know, And I didn't

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Speaker 3: think I would be strong enough to read it in

435
00:23:23,201 --> 00:23:26,801
Speaker 3: court that they asked me beforehand, you know, whether I

436
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 3: was going to it, and I was like, let's do it,

437
00:23:29,681 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 3: you know, let's be strong enough forever to do that,

438
00:23:32,441 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 3: you know. Own I thought maybe you would have more

439
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 3: of an impact if I read that out rather than

440
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 3: someone else, So yeah, I did. I suppose I just

441
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,801
Speaker 3: try to drown everyone else out and just focus on

442
00:23:41,801 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: what I needed to read and read it out, and

443
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 3: I hope I just got my point across that how

444
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,001
Speaker 3: much she meant to us and the kids, and you know, yeah,

445
00:23:52,001 --> 00:23:57,201
Speaker 3: and my brother done a victim impact statement as well,

446
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 3: and yeah, it was it was really hard listening to that.

447
00:24:02,281 --> 00:24:05,001
Speaker 3: He it was very touching what he wrote and that,

448
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 3: you know, so don't think again, I think he just

449
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 3: got his point across about how much hour meant to

450
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,441
Speaker 3: him and his family and our family that you don't

451
00:24:13,441 --> 00:24:23,001
Speaker 3: even Yeah, the person involved in our case, like his

452
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,441
Speaker 3: mum obviously did not care.

453
00:24:24,681 --> 00:24:26,921
Speaker 1: Like dad was pretty.

454
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 3: Abusive, and I'm not using it as an excuse, but

455
00:24:30,281 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 3: he then went to live with like aunties or something

456
00:24:32,521 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 3: or aren't you an uncle with like twelve other you know,

457
00:24:36,961 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: cousins around or whatever. And then he was then obviously

458
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 3: because he was in committing some crimes, but he had

459
00:24:42,721 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 3: to do you know, what do you call.

460
00:24:44,561 --> 00:24:46,281
Speaker 1: It, like like an hour or a week.

461
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,681
Speaker 3: With some support group or something, which is obviously wasn't enough,

462
00:24:50,961 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 3: you know, And I want to see him.

463
00:24:52,481 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: I'm sticking up for him because I'm not.

464
00:24:53,921 --> 00:24:58,001
Speaker 3: But I can sort of see why people end up

465
00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 3: the way they do because of just that lack of

466
00:25:00,961 --> 00:25:04,521
Speaker 3: support from at least a father figure. You know, you

467
00:25:04,561 --> 00:25:06,321
Speaker 3: don't have to have a dad in your life, as

468
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,201
Speaker 3: long as you've got the father figure. It can even

469
00:25:08,201 --> 00:25:11,641
Speaker 3: be worse case, like a good tea shirt that can

470
00:25:11,681 --> 00:25:13,561
Speaker 3: help guide you and put you on the right track.

471
00:25:14,241 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 3: People need to have good role models or parents around

472
00:25:18,201 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 3: them to help keep on the straight and narrow, you know. So,

473
00:25:23,801 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, I just think there should be more

474
00:25:25,921 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 3: support out there for people like that need it, really

475
00:25:30,201 --> 00:25:32,481
Speaker 3: as a core fact before we then start getting into

476
00:25:32,521 --> 00:25:35,521
Speaker 3: longer sentence that you know, you're always going to get

477
00:25:35,521 --> 00:25:36,241
Speaker 3: people commit crimes.

478
00:25:36,241 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: I don't think you're ever going to get away from that.

479
00:25:37,761 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: But like if you can just help people from a

480
00:25:39,921 --> 00:25:42,601
Speaker 3: younger age, you know, like maybe they can be identified

481
00:25:42,721 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 3: or whatever, then maybe.

482
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: They can help be supported and you know, guided better.

483
00:25:47,041 --> 00:25:51,281
Speaker 3: Like maybe they do need to be taken away from

484
00:25:51,281 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 3: their parents if that's the case, but put with support people,

485
00:25:54,921 --> 00:25:57,201
Speaker 3: foster people, that's actually going to help these kids out.

486
00:25:57,441 --> 00:26:01,801
Speaker 3: Like it's such a complex issue, Like it's not just

487
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,801
Speaker 3: a one size fits all, like response is the answer

488
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 3: to what we're dealing with at the moment. I understand that,

489
00:26:09,201 --> 00:26:14,041
Speaker 3: you know, but I understand people need help, but I

490
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: also can't get away from people being locked up. If

491
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,561
Speaker 3: you're murdering people, you just in my view and I'll

492
00:26:18,561 --> 00:26:20,521
Speaker 3: never change that. You've got to be punished for that,

493
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: so