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Speaker 1: Good a team. It's Harps, it's Melissa, it's doctor Bo,

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Speaker 1: who you'll meet in a minute. It's the You Project.

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Speaker 1: It's bloody Thursday night at eight seventeen, Melissa, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: I'm old. You know that I peak at about nine

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Speaker 1: am and it's a spiral after that. What are you

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Speaker 1: doing to me?

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Speaker 2: I reckon, you've come back to life. I can tell

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Speaker 2: you're a bit excited about this.

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Speaker 1: And I may or may not have had some kind

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Speaker 1: of neotropic at about ten No, not ten to five.

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Speaker 1: I may or may not have. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's ethically gets the tick from the dock, So I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to commit either way. How's your day been, Melissa?

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Speaker 2: It has been good. Thank you very good? And yourself well.

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Speaker 1: I lifted heavy stuff and I had a miracle happen today.

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Speaker 1: I might well with my eyes. Remember I told a miracle. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I had a miracle. Maybe the doc can explain to

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Speaker 1: us why. And I don't want to tell my two

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Speaker 1: minute story with him sitting in the wings, So let's say, hi, Hi,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bo, how are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm well. I love the fact that I'm talking to

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Speaker 2: someone who had a miracle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, miracle. I don't know. The Vatican haven't ticked it

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Speaker 1: off yet. It's a matter of time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, the sainthood is in your future.

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Speaker 1: Well we discovered before.

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Speaker 2: Do you do the miracle? Or was it done to you?

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Speaker 1: It was done to me?

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Speaker 2: Or were you alone? Was this like too much sort

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Speaker 2: of intimate detail?

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Speaker 1: Well no, it was. Hang on, I'll give you the story. Now.

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Speaker 1: I know this is unorthodox and you've never started a

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Speaker 1: podcast ever like this. Oh good, so we'll feel free

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Speaker 1: to chop it out. So my eyes have been I'm

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Speaker 1: fifty eight, so my eyes started going to crap at

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Speaker 1: about early forties, just started wearing most people. When I

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Speaker 1: was it was literally I was overseas. I was in

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Speaker 1: Colorado when I was doing some gigs, and I was

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Speaker 1: at a place called Breckenridge, and I was trying to read,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, what's wrong with what's wrong with this

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Speaker 1: book or screen or whatever? And then I realized anyway,

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Speaker 1: so I went and bought myself. I think they were

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Speaker 1: reading glasses, and they were just like a one, you know,

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Speaker 1: one magnification. Anyway, I put on them and everything was clear,

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Speaker 1: and I went, well, I'm getting old. My eyes as shit.

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Speaker 1: And then I went eventually to one half, then two

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Speaker 1: and you know the deal. And then I got some

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Speaker 1: proper glasses which are kind of multifocals, so I can

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Speaker 1: look up here and see long distance, look down here,

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Speaker 1: read anyway. I I feel like lately reading through the

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Speaker 1: same glasses my vision's gotten worse, or looking through the

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Speaker 1: same glasses. So I went and got the old number

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Speaker 1: twos out of the desk, the reading glasses to you

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Speaker 1: know what it's like when you're doing a PhD. I'm

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Speaker 1: reading one million bloody research papers. And I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe somehow these will be better. I put them on

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Speaker 1: and they were souper for blurry, and I went, my eyes,

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Speaker 1: I'm almost blind. And then I thought, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: walk up to the pharmacy chemist. What do you call

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Speaker 1: it over there? What do you call a pharmacy or chemist?

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Speaker 2: Well, in the States is a drug store, but in Britain,

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Speaker 2: as you know, it's chemist or pharmacy. And where am

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Speaker 2: i I'm in ib it's a pharmacy here.

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Speaker 1: Cool anyway, I went up there when I'm going to

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Speaker 1: just get some off the shelf, and I went, I

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Speaker 1: put on the twos, which is where I stopped last time,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't see shit. I put on two and

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Speaker 1: a halfs. I'm like, oh god, I must I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have to stop driving soon. I must be legally blind.

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Speaker 1: Then I tried threes. It was still blurry, and it

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Speaker 1: only goes to three and a half and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: if these don't work, I'm not sure what I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do. And they didn't work. Everything was blurry, but

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Speaker 1: it was almost like the higher the number, the blurrier

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Speaker 1: it got. So, being the scientific genius that I am,

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Speaker 1: I went, why don't I tried less than two th

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Speaker 1: thinking there's no way, but you know the evidence so far.

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Speaker 1: So I tried one and a half and it was

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Speaker 1: pretty good. I'm like, what is this? And then I

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Speaker 1: tried one and that was it And now I'm a one,

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Speaker 1: Like my eyesight is better than it used to be.

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Speaker 1: What is that about? Neuroscience? Man? So that no pressure?

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, let's see, first of all,

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Speaker 2: how far away were you holding these things your face?

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Speaker 2: Because if you're holding like a five meters away, then

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe fourteen or fifteen inches.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you know it is possible for your I is

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Speaker 2: to get but I mean, it's there. There's a there's

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Speaker 2: research suggests that as you sort of let yourself go

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Speaker 2: to more and more mag magnification, your brain will then

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Speaker 2: adapt to that. So I personally try to keep it

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Speaker 2: a low modification in order to have my eyes work.

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Speaker 2: So I'm about your age. I'm only a few years

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Speaker 2: younger than you, and like you, my eyes, like most

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Speaker 2: people start going at forty. It's remarkable, like clockwork. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then you sort of work to keep your eyes working.

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Speaker 2: And I'd say this is true in life, right, because

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Speaker 2: your brain, you know, evolved to adapt, and so we're

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Speaker 2: constantly your brains like a muscle, you use it to

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Speaker 2: lose it. It is your your eyes. The muscles of

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Speaker 2: your eyes. You know, they're getting weaker, stronger depending on

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Speaker 2: how you work with them.

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Speaker 1: Well, right, I'm going to call it a miracle. You

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Speaker 1: can call it science. I don't care.

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Speaker 2: Miracles. But isn't science like the study of miracles. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it is quite miraculous the world, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: I think everything is miraculous. I think humans miraculous. I

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Speaker 1: think you know I like, I mean, I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: like when I did first time round at UNI, when

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Speaker 1: I did anatomy in physiology to reasonably, I'm like, how

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Speaker 1: how on earth is all this stuff in here and

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Speaker 1: it does what it does? Like, I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: there's so many things, but just the body is ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: It's absolutely true. I mean we share that passion. I

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Speaker 2: was my background as an undergrad at Berkeley back in

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Speaker 2: the eighty six to ninety one, and the so as

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Speaker 2: anatomy physiology major. So we'd have average out on the

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Speaker 2: out on there and you know, of course you treated

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Speaker 2: everything with respect and everything, but it was it was

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Speaker 2: just remarkable looking at the body and thinking that this

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Speaker 2: even works, and then when you literally get to understand it.

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Speaker 2: And this is why, you know, I think the Romantic

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Speaker 2: movement is a wonderful thing. But of course they were

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Speaker 2: sort of anti science because they found by explaining something

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Speaker 2: it became less beautiful. But doesn't it actually just increase

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Speaker 2: the beauty because it just increases the wonder of how

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Speaker 2: this thing even worked. I mean, just thinking about the

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Speaker 2: nephron of a kidney and how you get the filtration.

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Speaker 2: Quite apart from this ultracomplex structure that we most possibly

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Speaker 2: the most complex structure we have sitting on top of

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Speaker 2: our shoulders, right. So I was actually a developmental My

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Speaker 2: PhD was a developmental neuroscience. So I used to study

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Speaker 2: how the brain grows, because just development is itself inherently fascinating.

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Speaker 2: How do we go from a cell to billions and

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Speaker 2: billions of cells and the thing works incredibly remarkable, right,

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Speaker 2: And each of those cells has the same genetic information,

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Speaker 2: but it gets specialized and then and then how it

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Speaker 2: all interacts. And then what's also I find remarkable, And

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Speaker 2: what science has actually been not so good at, you know,

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Speaker 2: over the years, is that, you know, science and the

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Speaker 2: reductionist method actually eliminates the very thing that biology is

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Speaker 2: trying to understand, which is life. And life has actually

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Speaker 2: lives at the interactions between stuff and the stuff, but

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Speaker 2: interactions with But the reductionist method gets rid of those interactions,

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Speaker 2: gets rid of the very thing that we actually have

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Speaker 2: passionate about about emerging. How does this stuff emerge from interaction? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's remarkable.

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Speaker 1: All right. Now, before we get too farther further in,

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Speaker 1: let me just.

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Speaker 2: We're going to cut all that out.

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Speaker 1: Now, we're keeping all that that was great. I just

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Speaker 1: feel like I feel like I better tell people who

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Speaker 1: they're listening to Melissa, you will love this. So Bo

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Speaker 1: is the founder and CEO of a lab or it's

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Speaker 1: just called Lab of Misfits. I can't tell you how

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Speaker 1: much that name appeals to me because I've made a

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Speaker 1: misfit my whole life. So I definitely belong. I need

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Speaker 1: at least an honorary membership. So that's gorgeous, Bo says,

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Speaker 1: what yep, I'll tell you what. I'll follow up on

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Speaker 1: that very insecure. You don't know how much that would help.

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Speaker 1: Once you understand how works, you can't but see yourself

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Speaker 1: in the world in a different way and engage in

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Speaker 1: it a different way. I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: a lot about perception. I'm sure you actually I do,

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Speaker 1: and I don't because I feel like you must get

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Speaker 1: sick of banging on about the same stuff. Here's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of your bio. Doctor Bolotto is a neuroscientist

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Speaker 1: and world renowned expert in perception. Is research explores the

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Speaker 1: way in which we experience the world through our own

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Speaker 1: versions of reality. As both says, the brain never sees

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Speaker 1: the world as it actually is, only the world that

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Speaker 1: is useful to see. By illuminating these principles, the perception

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Speaker 1: has helped individuals and companies transform their approach to create

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Speaker 1: creativity and innovation. All right, my first real grown up

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Speaker 1: question for you differentiate and this is a bit of

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Speaker 1: a naff question, but what's at the intersection of the

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Speaker 1: brain and the mind or are they intertwined or they

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Speaker 1: tell me that just what you know, we don't see

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Speaker 1: things as they are. We see things as we are.

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Speaker 1: Which is that often quoted idea that's been accredited to

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Speaker 1: different people. But is it? Is it? Are we recognizing

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Speaker 1: and perceiving and downloading and storytelling through the mind or

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Speaker 1: through the brain?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Through the brain? I mean, I'm materialist, I'm not

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Speaker 2: a duellist. So the mind is the function of the brain.

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Speaker 2: If we see something or hear something or do something different,

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Speaker 2: that's your brain doing doing what it does. Yeah. And

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Speaker 2: what's more is the brain we so often forget is

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Speaker 2: the brain is embodied. You know, brain is part of

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Speaker 2: a body of body is in our world. Uh. And

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Speaker 2: you know Silicon Valley keeps forgetting this. You know that,

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to do everything virtual, but you know

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Speaker 2: it's we make meaning and all that by physically engaging

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Speaker 2: with the world, in which case it also means that

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Speaker 2: we have kind of an extended feenotype. We're also again

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Speaker 2: getting back to that interaction. Your brain doesn't exist in isolation,

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Speaker 2: in interaction with other brains and so perception. That's why

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Speaker 2: we have a T shirt that says, you know, be

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Speaker 2: in between that in some sense, that's where your brain lives.

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Speaker 2: It's constantly in between. It's constantly making things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, by.

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Speaker 2: Interaction in whiskeys, you can't really understand the brain outside

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Speaker 2: of its interaction with the world.

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Speaker 1: Understand the idea, the idea of the brain analyzing itself.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it though, I mean it's it's uh. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's one of its remarkable capacities and capabilities, right, But

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it is, uh, it is the brain. But

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Speaker 2: we could celebrate that's.

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Speaker 1: The idea, like the it. I mean, I love innovation,

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Speaker 1: and I listened to a little bit of a guy

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Speaker 1: called Alex Friedman, who you may or may not know

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Speaker 1: from M I T. Who's like a real pioneer in

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Speaker 1: AI and a bunch of other stuff that I don't

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Speaker 1: really get, but there are they're talking about, you know,

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Speaker 1: machine learning and autonomy and machines, robots, AI or whatever

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Speaker 1: that will think, I just I don't. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: guess it depends on how you define thinking, but thinking, cognition, creativity,

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Speaker 1: decision making in interpretation, like my version of cognition and metacognition.

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Speaker 1: I don't think a machine can do that. What about you?

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Speaker 2: Well, right, not right now, but in principle I think

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Speaker 2: it could. I mean, my lab has been doing artificial

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Speaker 2: intelligence for about twenty twenty five years. We have the

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Speaker 2: first artificial networks that saw that see in some sense

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Speaker 2: the same illusions that humans see.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And because the neural networks, basically if we unless you

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Speaker 2: think there's something inherently special about the connectivity of the brain,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to special something special about networks. What's important

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Speaker 2: about networks is interaction, and then you get emergence as

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Speaker 2: a consequence of those interactions. Think about the metaphor I

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Speaker 2: like using is the whirlpool. So whirlpool is a function

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Speaker 2: of the interaction between water molecules. Without an interaction, the

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Speaker 2: warlpool doesn't exist, right, But the whirlpool does physical stuff

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Speaker 2: in the world. You know, it can sink ships if

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Speaker 2: it's big enough. Yeah, right, you get rid of it.

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Speaker 2: But you couldn't predict a whirlpool by studying any individual

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Speaker 2: water molecule. So the mind, you could say, is a

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Speaker 2: consequence of the interacting between neurons brain cells. Brain cells

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Speaker 2: are like water molecules, right, and so in some sense

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Speaker 2: information comes in and it generates different kinds of warpools

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Speaker 2: in your brain, and those warpools are what you see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, incredible, what I was thinking. Also though, with humans,

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Speaker 1: so our thinking is intertwined with emotion, with feeling, with

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Speaker 1: previous experiences, with memories, with Does that not differentiate us

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Speaker 1: between artificial intelligence?

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Speaker 2: No, because not necessarily, well at the moment, yes, right, Well,

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Speaker 2: it's one way of differentiating us. But the point is

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Speaker 2: that artficial neural networks, for instance, are also networks. So

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Speaker 2: in theory they could also generate emergent patterns, and those

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Speaker 2: emergent patterns have consequence. One consequence for us is that

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Speaker 2: the consequence is to see red or to feel a

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Speaker 2: certain thing. Right, in principle, there's no reason why they

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Speaker 2: couldn't generate similar consequences from the interaction between artificial neural networks,

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Speaker 2: because again it's a network. So for me, what's inherently

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Speaker 2: important is the interaction between things. Now, those things, right,

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Speaker 2: and and the interaction with john brain cell seems to

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Speaker 2: generate the stuff that we're experiencing. Clearly, why couldn't that

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Speaker 2: also be happen through the interaction between artificial systems artificial elements.

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Speaker 1: What about the individuality person and person of how I

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Speaker 1: think and perceive and process the same stimulus. Like ten

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Speaker 1: people go through the same thing event, situation, circumstance, conversation,

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Speaker 1: but they all have a different experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, where they're not all going through the same thing. Well,

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Speaker 2: they're not going through.

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Speaker 1: The being subjected to the same stimulus anyway.

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Speaker 2: In some sense yes, and in some sense no. Okay, good,

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Speaker 2: So if you walk through let's say, okay, we both

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Speaker 2: walk let's see how could we would be an example?

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Speaker 2: I mean, even if I show you a picture, we're

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Speaker 2: not all at the same picture because it depends on

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Speaker 2: where you look. Yes, right, So you have a phobia,

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Speaker 2: which is a very highly sensitive part of your retina,

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Speaker 2: and it's really quite small. Right if people hold their

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Speaker 2: handout and you know at arm's length, the sensitivity the

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Speaker 2: fobia is about the width of the thumbnail at arm's length.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's where we're particularly sensitive. And that's what

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Speaker 2: we call foviation. That's where we're sort of really attending

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Speaker 2: and that's where your brain's really processing that information. Now

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Speaker 2: if we but an image is much bigger than that,

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Speaker 2: So you could actually be looking in the upper right

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Speaker 2: and it might be looking at the lower left. We're

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Speaker 2: getting very different experiences. And what if I go from

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Speaker 2: the lower left to the upper right, that might change

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Speaker 2: my interpretation, whereas you're going from the upper right to

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Speaker 2: the lower left right. If you meet one person before

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Speaker 2: another person, right, it's going to change the person you

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Speaker 2: first meet, it's going to change your perception of the

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Speaker 2: second person. But you could say we both met two people,

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Speaker 2: we both met the same people, So our experiences are

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Speaker 2: always different. What's more, the history that we're bringing to

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Speaker 2: this experience is different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So excuse me for asking a dumb question,

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Speaker 1: what's an experience?

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Speaker 2: What is an experience? Well, I suppose it really depends

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Speaker 2: on what it is in some sense that we're measuring.

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Speaker 2: So you could say, so, what do you mean from

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Speaker 2: the individual person?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking there's so much subject there's so much

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Speaker 1: subjectivity and assigning everything. Yeah, and assigning it, you know.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things I say when I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to a big group. Right, So I do a lot

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Speaker 1: of public speaking, and I talk about, you know, not

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Speaker 1: to the level you do, so feel free to correct me.

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Speaker 1: And Melissa take notes because I can use this man's

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Speaker 1: brain and take all the credit. I talk about, you know,

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Speaker 1: the reality that we're all in the same room on

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Speaker 1: the same day, listening to the same dude say the

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Speaker 1: same words with the same intention. You're all sitting in

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Speaker 1: identical seats and same lighting. Everything. All these stimuli are

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Speaker 1: the macro of what we're in right now, but the

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Speaker 1: micro is the way that you process everything. So we're

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Speaker 1: in the same room, we're in the same workshop, but

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Speaker 1: we're not in the same experience and so so, and

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Speaker 1: then I talk to them about so, you know, is

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Speaker 1: it possible that right now, some somebody finds what I'm

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Speaker 1: saying fascinating. Therefore their experience is fascination. Somebody finds me

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Speaker 1: boring the experiences boredom. Somebody finds me offensive, their experience

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Speaker 1: right now is offence, and so on. And then we go, well,

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Speaker 1: where is that experience that version of your reality coming from?

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Speaker 1: Is it about me? Or is it about your response

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Speaker 1: to me? And we kind of hope where and Now

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Speaker 1: this kind of opens the door a bit anyway in

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Speaker 1: my space on metacognition is starting to think about why

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Speaker 1: we think or respond the way we do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thinking about thinking. So the the experiences are different,

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Speaker 2: that's for sure, to you for your audience. In fact,

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Speaker 2: when I do like you, I do quite a bit

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Speaker 2: of public speaking or professional speaking, and at one point

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Speaker 2: in my talk I'll say everything I'm saying to you

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Speaker 2: right now is meaningless.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I saw you say that on a Ted talk

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, that's so brilliant but fucking confusing, because.

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Speaker 2: It literally is right, Because I mean, if we didn't exist,

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Speaker 2: these these sounds that we're making have no meaning. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's no inherent meaning in any of these words. Right.

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Speaker 2: This is not laws of physics, This is not gravity. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: there is no meaning in these utterances. No one but

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Speaker 2: us understands them. So for not here, they don't make

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Speaker 2: you know, there is no meaning. Your brain's not interested

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Speaker 2: in data, right, your brain gets information. So if you're

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Speaker 2: giving a talk, if I'm giving a talk, people are

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Speaker 2: you know, they're geting sound waves that's vibrating in the

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Speaker 2: ear drums, right, that's not actually what they're hearing. What

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Speaker 2: they're hearing is the meaning of that data. They don't

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Speaker 2: hear the data, They're not seeing the data, right, And

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Speaker 2: what their brain is doing is they're making a meaning

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Speaker 2: of it. And the reason why they have to do

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Speaker 2: that is because there is no inherent meaning in that data. Now,

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Speaker 2: data exists, right, the physical world exists. And like I

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Speaker 2: like to say, you know, if a tree falls in

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Speaker 2: the woods, doesn't make a sound, and the answer is no,

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Speaker 2: But it makes energy, sound vibration, right. The sound is

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Speaker 2: a function of our brain. The brain then turns out

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Speaker 2: of information into the perceptual experience that we become aware of.

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Speaker 2: What is that perceptual experience? It's a meaning. It's a

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Speaker 2: meaning that isn't inherent in the data itself. Where does

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Speaker 2: that meaning come from? It comes largely from our history

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Speaker 2: of what that information meant for a behavior in the past. Right.

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Speaker 2: So if someone hears here's me say a word or

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Speaker 2: not a word makes here a sound, it means something

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Speaker 2: to them because in the past it meant something before, right,

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Speaker 2: and then they generated behavior. It's like that worked, okay, brilliant,

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Speaker 2: I'll keep I'll stick with that meaning. Or that didn't work. Huh,

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Speaker 2: maybe I'll change that meaning. And we're constantly doing this

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Speaker 2: all the time, and this is what evolution's doing, right.

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Speaker 2: We're constantly changing the structure of our brain according to

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Speaker 2: trial and error experience, whether that be over millennium genetics

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Speaker 2: or over a second in changing the connections between our neurons.

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Speaker 2: So we're doing that all according to feedback.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, straight up, smarty pants. And I thought my eye

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Speaker 1: story was fucking fascinating. That was a yawn fist.

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Speaker 2: I like your eye story.

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Speaker 1: So he's he's one of my questions. Doc. So you

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Speaker 1: are a really good science communicator, which there are not

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Speaker 1: many people. Andrew Huberman's pretty good. You're good, You're great. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let me paint this picture. You're in front of

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Speaker 1: a thousand people. You're in an auditorium. They're not you.

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Speaker 1: They're not neuroscientists. They're maybe not even scientists. Most of them.

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Speaker 1: They're people who work for the XYZ Foundation or organization,

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Speaker 1: and they sell widgets and you're there talking to them

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Speaker 1: about whatever, how do it? They better think better, do better,

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Speaker 1: produce better, be happy and more fulfilled whatever. So you

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Speaker 1: are sharing thoughts and ideas that you fully understand and

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Speaker 1: concepts that a lot of people wouldn't understand unless you've

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Speaker 1: found a way to disseminate it in a user friendly manner.

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Speaker 1: But you're up the front, You're in your own experience,

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Speaker 1: and there are a thousand people in their own individual experience.

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Speaker 1: How do you in real time navigate that? And I

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Speaker 1: know this masking this because I want the answer. How

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Speaker 1: do you in real time navigate that realizing that no

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Speaker 1: one including you is in the same experience? And how

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Speaker 1: do you build rapport and connection and engagement and career

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Speaker 1: ID right experience? I now you can't control all of that,

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Speaker 1: but how do you do that knowing that there's such

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Speaker 1: so many different experiences happening.

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Speaker 2: While there's different experiences, we all have commonality, so we

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Speaker 2: also have it. We were also looking at the world

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Speaker 2: through an evolved brain. So when we think about experience,

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Speaker 2: most of your life happened without you even there. What

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Speaker 2: do I mean by that? So the immediate answer your

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Speaker 2: question is, I try to speak to commonalities, sort of

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Speaker 2: human truths and values, things that are common to all

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Speaker 2: of them. Okay, seeing red is common to all of us,

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Speaker 2: or I can't be inside your head and know whether

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Speaker 2: your quality of red is my quality of red? It

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Speaker 2: is called the inverted spectrum, right, because I can never

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Speaker 2: be inside anyone else's head, but we will behave towards

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Speaker 2: red in exactly the same way. So by assumption that

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Speaker 2: it's like presumably you're you know, at least behaviorally, we're

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Speaker 2: behaving towards something exactly the same way. Why, because we

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Speaker 2: came into the world being evolved brain Right, you're looking

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Speaker 2: through the eyes of your ancestors. So why is that?

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Speaker 2: Because you know, the only reason why you're here is

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Speaker 2: because your ancestors did stuff that was useful, right, Rather,

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Speaker 2: they didn't die. So evolution works not by success, it

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Speaker 2: works by failure, so you know, and in fact, this

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Speaker 2: is a really important point and it's kind of a

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Speaker 2: bit of an aside, but there's something called form from

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Speaker 2: failure rather than form from success. So we evolve because

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Speaker 2: we didn't die, not because we are successful. We typically

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Speaker 2: engage with the world to not die rather than to succeed.

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Speaker 2: They are not symmetrical, right, And it's also really important

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Speaker 2: to become aware of that. And this is one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons why news tends to be biased towards the negative,

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Speaker 2: because we tend to avoid not dying. We don't go

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Speaker 2: towards success. So negative stuff is far more salient to

430
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: us because die ying during evolution it was easy. It's

431
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: really easy to die, right, there are billions of ways

432
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: of dying, not so many ways to survive. M Okay,

433
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: So we typically tend to buyas towards safety, towards not dying.

434
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: So what's the point. The point is that the functional

435
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: structure of your brain is a history of experience. Most

436
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 2: of those experiences were not yours. It could be evolved experiences.

437
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: So you come into the brain with a functioning, structured brain.

438
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: Then during development, it then starts refining itself. But that's

439
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: an environment. It could be a culture environment, a familiar environment,

440
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: a physical environment that other people also are developing in,

441
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,239
Speaker 2: and then you have your nuanced individual experience. So in

442
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: some sense, you could say, we're all kind of like

443
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 2: living in the same suburban house. It's just that our

444
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 2: furniture is in different places. Yeah, right, But we make

445
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: a big deal about the fact that our furniture is

446
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 2: different places without realizing the fact that we kind of

447
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: are all in the same house. Right. What would happen

448
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: if we actually focused on the house right than the friends.

449
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: Maybe we'd have a bit more commonality.

450
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

451
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, So to me, this is what's important. The whole

452
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: reason why I do any of this work partly is

453
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: because I'm passionately interested in understanding stuff. But once you

454
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: understand that this is the case, you can't help but

455
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: have humility.

456
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: What's something that you, as a researcher and scientists had,

457
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: like I'm sure there were many, but maybe one or

458
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: two epiphanies or aha moments where you something absolutely confounded

459
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: you or shocked you, or something that you realize you've

460
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,479
Speaker 1: got terribly wrong and had to let go because you know,

461
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: we like, as you say in your talks, we like certainty,

462
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: we like predictability, we like familiarity, we like knowing, and

463
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: we become very attached to what we think is our

464
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: knowledge and sometimes it's erroneous, you know, and we've become

465
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: very attached to our ideas and beliefs. What was something

466
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: you needed to unlearn or peraps something that for you

467
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: was a massive lock bulb? M Well, tell me if

468
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: I ever got anything wrong? Come on, No.

469
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: On the contrary, I get things wrong all the time.

470
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: But that's what I actually like. Yes, right, so you know,

471
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: maybe it's a pathology, But what I find beautiful is

472
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: realizing that shifts not quite what I thought. I love

473
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: having my assumptions and biases contradicted, not for the sake

474
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: of it, because now suddenly I understand more so by

475
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: the irony is that you own I mean, think for

476
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: your audience, yourself. Have you ever done anything interesting from

477
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: the position of knowing? Right? Why you do it from

478
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: the position of not knowing right? Which is why on

479
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: my wrist I have a tattoo that says I don't know. Yeah,

480
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: because you only do anything something. You only do something

481
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 2: interesting from the position of not knowing. By definition, if

482
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,479
Speaker 2: you already know it, how can you do anything right?

483
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: It's always from the position not knowing. In order to

484
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: not know, you have to be willing to let go

485
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: of what you thought to be true before.

486
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: Yes.

487
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: The problem is we hate doing that because that's to

488
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: step into uncertainty. Uncertainty again, coming back to evolution, was

489
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: a really bad idea. If you didn't know, you kind

490
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: of died. Yes, right.

491
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: If you didn't.

492
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, If you didn't know, I could eat this fruit

493
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 2: or that fruit, you died. Right. We evolved to know

494
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: stuff because it kept us alive, and we evolved to

495
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: predict because you know, if the food's not coming to me,

496
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: I got to go to it. But it's unfortunately doing

497
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: stuff that seems random until I can predict it. Now

498
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: I know where to wait for it. Now I can

499
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: capture it, right, So we're constantly so when we can't

500
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: predict it's like shit, I don't know what to do. Now,

501
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: I'm scared because I'm looking at it through my evolved ancestors.

502
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: That was a moment of potential. That's why our cortosol

503
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: level goes up. We get stressed, all kinds of things happen.

504
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: Your brain cells start dying, your immune system degrades. As

505
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: I mentioned in my talks, you become a more extreme

506
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: version of yourself. If you're liberal, you become more liberal

507
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: if you're conservad Why because you go into familiarity, which

508
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: is one of the reasons why we get polarization right now.

509
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: You become more gullible right because you're just trying to

510
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 2: find any associations to explain. So, which is why we're

511
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: getting so many conspiracy theories right now. In this sort

512
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: of incredible time of global uncertainty, I mean uncertainly always existed,

513
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: your brain will evolved to deal with it, so we

514
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: hate that. But in my case, and not just in

515
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: my case, in your case, doing your PhD, you're being

516
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: trained to not know science is nothing but basically increasing uncertainty,

517
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: the role.

518
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: Of exceptional not knowing. Just so you know, yeah, brilliant.

519
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: I'm a huge celebrator of being naive. Naive tea is

520
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: a beautiful not ignorance. But naive tea is a beautiful thing.

521
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: But ironically, bo we we I'm generalizing. But we seem

522
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: to get our sense of self and our identity from

523
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: what we think we know or our beliefs.

524
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: Is that a silly idea?

525
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, our identity is tied to our beliefs. So when

526
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: who I am is, oh, i am a vegetarian, or

527
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: I am a I am a Christian, or I am

528
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: a Buddhist, or I am an atheist or I am a.

529
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: I'm a we tire ourselves Now we identify with nouns, right,

530
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: And what a silly idea because nouns are necessarily transient.

531
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: Because okay, so you know, I tie myself to this thing.

532
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: Then science comes through or someone says that's a bad idea.

533
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: It's like shit, and I've got to rethink my whole identity.

534
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: What if we tight our identity of verbs?

535
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but do you know what I reckon? Though? We

536
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: don't go now I've got to change my identity, we

537
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: go fuck that research at floor.

538
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: Well, that's usually what happens right now. But what really

539
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: depends on whether or not we do that is how

540
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: open someone is. So people who are more neurotic or

541
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: less like are more willing to do what you just

542
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: It's like, screw that. People are more open, are more

543
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: willing to do that. It has to do with ego.

544
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: I'm not interested in small or large egos. I'm interested

545
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: in whether or not your ego's fragile, right, And so

546
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: if you have a fragile ego where you're gonna you know,

547
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: you're not gonna you're not gonna challenge it. But if

548
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: you have a strong ego, it's like, okay, I don't

549
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: define myself. I'm willing to define myself in a different way.

550
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: Let's go for that. It's amazing how narrowly and superficially

551
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: we so often define ourselves, not only by nouns, but

552
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: by pretty superficial nouns as well. Yes, why don't we

553
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: define ourselves in terms of someone who's you know, I'm

554
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: someone I'm not. I hope to be this person, but

555
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: in general, as an example, to define myself, I'm someone

556
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: who's resilient. I'm someone who's adaptable. I'm someone who's generous. Right,

557
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: I'm someone you know, a verb, someone who is defined

558
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: by a process. In fact, in some sense, you could

559
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: argue Buddhism does that, right, whereas you know I don't

560
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: necessarily want well, I'm very happy to get in revigion.

561
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 2: Whereas Christianity is defined by a noun, Buddhism is much

562
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: more about a process. I'm someone who's willing to evolve.

563
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: I'm someone who's willing to expand right as opposed to

564
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: I am X. And then if I show you data

565
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: to show that X isn't valid, more likely, if you've

566
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: tied your identity to it, you're going to hold yourself

567
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: even stronger to that, which means I've now pushed you

568
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: to faith. And the whole point of faith is to

569
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: believe in it despite the evidence, and we celebrate it

570
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: so much. Think of every hero you know, they go

571
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: against all the odds because they just know, you know,

572
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: they're completely anti evidence driven. Right heroes right and ironically

573
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: now that kind of also works the best things in

574
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: life makes sense.

575
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: And also you bring emotion into these beliefs or faith,

576
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: and now people are defiant and angry, and we have

577
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: echo chambers, and we have people screaming at each other,

578
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: and we have people absolutely like people willing to kill

579
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: each other over things that they can't even prove it

580
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: like at all. You know, Like I got raised in

581
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: a really a religious environment, and so I'm a minor

582
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: expert on religion or my religion anyway, and it's it's

583
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: we spoke about this recently. You know just how how

584
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: discouraged I was. And this is many people's experience, not

585
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: even discouraged, but condemned for thinking, for thinking for myself

586
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: and for questioning. You can't question, you conform. You don't question,

587
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: You don't think yourself. You can't. In fact, if you

588
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: do that, you're sinning. What sinning? And by the way,

589
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: I got told this when I was eight.

590
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: Bo.

591
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: By the way, if you die with a mortal sin

592
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: on your soul, you will go to an eternal lake

593
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: of fire and you will burn forever. I'm like, oh, well,

594
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: that's good news. Thanks for telling me that, father, I mean,

595
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: fucking hell, who tells a child.

596
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 2: That millions and millions of people tell each other that. So,

597
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 2: but it's not just religious education as well. So I

598
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: like you. It sounds like we came from the same

599
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: place and I was an altar boy.

600
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: Wow, dude, yeah, wow. It is a podcast all by itself,

601
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: but let's leave it alone.

602
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: But and I mean, with that said, there's some really

603
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: really interesting in some sense truths that exist within all

604
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: these religions. I was a religious studies miner when I

605
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 2: was at Berkeley as well as my because I'm very

606
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: interested in how people think, how people adapt. There's and

607
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: there's some really valuable insights there. The problem is thinking

608
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: about what the source of that is and whether or

609
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: not it shouldn't be self evolve and be questioned. I

610
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: would argue that one of the most dangerous things you

611
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 2: can do is not an action, it's a word. And

612
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 2: the word is why, right, which is one of the

613
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: reasons why institutions like governments, especially totalitarian governments, education systems, religions,

614
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 2: not all religions, are set up to block that one

615
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 2: word because if you ask why, suddenly it's like, wait

616
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: a minute, you mean it could be different. Well, if

617
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: it could be different. Well, now suddenly you've lost a

618
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: little bit of control over me. Yes, But the way

619
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: I keep control over you is by saying, look, you

620
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: don't need to worry about these questions. Come on, you

621
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: don't like uncertainty anyway, Let's just all be let's just

622
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: all be certain in the same way. Then we'll all

623
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: be happy, won't we.

624
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: Yeah?

625
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: Right, Which is why there's a wonderful phrase which I

626
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: quote in the book, which is, you know, all revolutions

627
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 2: begin with a joke, or rather every joke is a

628
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: small revolution, because it's to say it could be different.

629
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: And for me, questions are wonderful. But we don't even

630
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: educate children to ask questions. Most questions are rubbish. Your questions,

631
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: of course brilliant, but most questions, most questions are rubbish, right,

632
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 2: Which isn't say that they're bad to ask. It's because

633
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: asking a good question is really, really hard. It's really hard.

634
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: It can take fifty years. Think of Einstein. It took

635
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: years and years and years to ask the brilliant question

636
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: that he was able to ask. But it's asking questions

637
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 2: in the empirical process. To me, science is about asking

638
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: brilliant questions. Is not about answers. Finding those grilliant but

639
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: brilliant questions are challenging, right because they challenge our assumed beliefs.

640
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: They challenge what we assume to be true already, it

641
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: requires us to let go of identity, right, which is

642
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: why my lab works on we're creating an education. We've

643
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: created an education system resulting the youngest published scientists in

644
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: the world at eight to ten years old, right, and

645
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: we're creating now a whole education program around this because

646
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: our argument is that science is nothing other than play

647
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 2: with intention. It's a mindset that says, actually, not knowing

648
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: is a brilliant thing, questions are wonderful. It's literally a

649
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: mindset that enables you to go to the very place

650
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 2: we evolved to avoid.

651
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: Melissa was telling me about that study before you came

652
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: on and correct me if I get this wrong. Apparently,

653
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: because they are all so young that the boffins wouldn't

654
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: publish the study. But then some other people quoted their

655
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: research and that got published, and then is that right?

656
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: Then they ended up getting published.

657
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: So what happens? First of all, we couldn't we couldn't

658
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: get funding for it, ironically from the Welcome Trust, which

659
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: is supposed to be in public engagement of science because

660
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: we're doing actual science, like you know, you're supposed to

661
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 2: be talking about science, not doing science. And my point is, well,

662
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: the best way to communicate science is to do science,

663
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: right you just in the public.

664
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: Stop making sense though, will come on the company line,

665
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: bro stop fucking thinking for yourself.

666
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: As opposed to you know, do science and then you know,

667
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 2: talk about it. But you know, actually, let's let's get

668
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: people to truly engage and actually have them walk away

669
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: with a deeper understanding themselves. Anyway, so we couldn't get

670
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: the funding for us. We've self funded it, and then

671
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: we couldn't get it published because not you know, not

672
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 2: surprising that the kids didn't have access to the references.

673
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 2: They didn't have the history, so we had unique insights

674
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 2: that no one else had known. It was his research

675
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: done on bumblebees, and the kids design an experiment around

676
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: whether bumblees can solve a complex problem if then that

677
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: you know, go to the blue it's surrounded by yellow,

678
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: but yellow is surrounded by blue. It's a complex problem.

679
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: And they found the answer. But because they didn't know

680
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 2: the history, they couldn't write the introduct to the paper,

681
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 2: we can get it published, which creates some really interesting

682
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 2: is science about history or science about new insight? And

683
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: so that's why I loved about it is it was

684
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 2: also challenging science. You know, what is science?

685
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: Then?

686
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: So then what we were able to do is we

687
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 2: we then brought in other scientists. Uh, doctor Maloney wanted

688
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 2: a wonderful, wonderful scientist n y U and he then

689
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 2: contextualized it because and then and then the paper was published,

690
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: and then they become the younger publish scientists. But it

691
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: took two years to get it published. And uh, and

692
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: now I want to do another study where the kids

693
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: actually communicate it in story form. What would happen if

694
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: we had a science paper that it was actually a

695
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: children's book? Right, wouldn't that be wonderful? It's still be

696
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 2: presenting them, but that's how kids talk. Why would we

697
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: want to have them talk to each other via science paper?

698
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with science?

699
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: What's I think the same? I think? What is literally?

700
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: What is wrong with writing? Even stuff that's complicated or

701
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: deep or not easy to solve, but write it in

702
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: a way that the general public or the general population

703
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: can understand. You know so much if you handed you know,

704
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: like I've been reading today and yesterday one paper. It's

705
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: forty five pages, right, but it takes takes half an

706
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: hour to reach one read one page and absorb it

707
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: and figure it out sometimes, you know, I mean it

708
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't take it take you one minute. But and I

709
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: just think this stuff, some of it is so unnecessarily

710
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: verbose in a way that is difficult to process. And

711
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: then by the time I figure out what they're saying,

712
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: I go, oh, okay, well they're just saying that. What

713
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: didn't they just write that?

714
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, there is that right there, there's you know,

715
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: you also see this in art as well. You know,

716
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 2: by writing it in a very complex way, it gives

717
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: the illusion of it actually being much more important than

718
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: it really is. With that said, science papers are also

719
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: such that they're written, in my view, so that the

720
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: scientist is not relevant. Right. You think about when you

721
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: have someone giving a science talk, they almost never say,

722
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: or if they're a good speaker, they're not going to say,

723
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: I I did this, I did that, right, because you're

724
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 2: not relevant. What's relevant is the finding. If you're relevant

725
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: in the finding, well then it's not a good study

726
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: because it can't be reproduced. So the science paper needs

727
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: to be depersonalized. It's like, this was discovered, it was observed.

728
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 2: But if it's if I'm relevant in the observation, now,

729
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: well that's that's an issue. Whereas an artist will say

730
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: I did this, I did that. What's interesting is when

731
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: brilliant artists like a friend of mine, Olifar Ellison, I

732
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: suddenly disappear, right because now they've realized that actually it's

733
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 2: something that transcends them, right, and science is about stuff

734
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: that transcends us. Yeah, yeah, it goes beyond the individual.

735
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: But then how do you communicate it to people who

736
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 2: are not scientists? And we worked with the UK government

737
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: with the White Paper for how to communicate climate information

738
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: to the public. It's you don't present more data to

739
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: convince people. You have to make it relevant and make

740
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: them part of it. Yeah, right, say, why why does

741
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: this matter of team? What can you do about it?

742
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: What's the meaning of the data, not just the data? Yeah,

743
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: because your brain works the level of.

744
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: Meaning, yeah, and the level of your understanding. Right.

745
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: Well that well, it's a really inching question. What's the

746
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 2: difference between knowing and understanding? And it's something that the

747
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 2: lab's actively pursuing. To me, there's a fundamental distinction between

748
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 2: knowing stuff and understanding stuff. Education tends to be focused

749
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: on knowing stuff. It's on answers. It's uncertainty, right, not ununderstanding,

750
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: But understanding is actually what your brain wants, because if

751
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: you understand something, it means you can generalize it. If

752
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 2: I can understand you, now, I can predict you. I

753
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 2: can understand what your needs are, what your wants are.

754
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: That's where love lives. Love lives and understanding someone not

755
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: to knowing someone. So and that's true in nature. If

756
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: I understand something now, I can predict to a new experience.

757
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 2: But if I just know it now, I'm just stuck

758
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: to that experience. Now I have to relearn a whole

759
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: new experience.

760
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny like knowledge is. It's almost like something

761
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: that sits on a shelf in your brain, or it

762
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: can be, but exactly right. Understanding is a different thing.

763
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 1: And I my knowledge and understanding obviously can go hand

764
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: in hand, but not always, you know. And I used

765
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: to have friends when I was at school, you know,

766
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: in high school, and who could literally memorize big chunks

767
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: of crap and pass an exam and you'd ask them

768
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: two days later. They not only wouldn't they know it anymore,

769
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: but they couldn't explain things to you because they just

770
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: had basically short terms, like a brilliant capacity to store

771
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: short term information, and then it was gone. But they

772
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: didn't understand it, but they could memorize things.

773
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Then we reward that behavior in our society.

774
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

775
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: Well, that behavior then becomes successful and it perpetuates itself.

776
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 2: The reason why that's useful is because it's efficient.

777
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

778
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: Right, So coming back to you know, you talked on

779
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: the very beginning about innovation, and innovation has two sides,

780
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: efficiency and creativity. Were educated to be efficient, Yeah, because victorians.

781
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: It was a good idea. Things were pretty chaotic. Let's

782
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: try to make things a bit more efficient. It's not

783
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: a bad idea. What we've also abandoned is creativity. You

784
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: have to have the both to be innovative, not just

785
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 2: one or the other. Right. But the problem is we

786
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: then try to make things creative in an efficiency model. Right,

787
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: that doesn't work. We need another model that subsumes both

788
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: creativity and innovation. That's you know, that's what we're focused on.

789
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: And to me, that's what science is. Yeah, you still

790
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: got to make findings, you still got to write the paper,

791
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: you still got to get grants. But I can't say

792
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 2: to my PhD sudents, I like that discovery by Tuesday.

793
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: Please you could sign that.

794
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: I could say that, yeah, but you know, but we

795
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: still got to try to make discoveries.

796
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: So, you know, I feel like there's a place in

797
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 1: science for creativity because you you know, you've got to

798
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: solve problems, and you know that that's a creative process.

799
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: And even with my research is on a thing called

800
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: external self awareness, which is your ability to understand that

801
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: you experience for others. So your ability to accurately represent

802
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 1: the way that people you know experience you. It's more

803
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: than that, but that's the kind of easy route to it.

804
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: And it's funny when I ask CEOs or managers or

805
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: leaders like one simple question that there's many of them

806
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: never thought about. I go, what do you think it's

807
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: like being around you? Like some of them are quite uncomfortable,

808
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: And I go, because I can guarantee you that your

809
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: version and understanding of you is no one else's. The

810
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: way you think you are is like nobody in your

811
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: organization thinks you are right. And the quick example I

812
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: give I say to an audience, I say, put your

813
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: hand up if you've ever heard your voice recorded on audio.

814
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: Everyone goes, oh god, they put their hand up, and

815
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: I go, now put up your hand if you think

816
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: you sound shit, And everybody puts up their hand, and

817
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: I go, well, here's the news. How how you sound

818
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: on audio is how the rest of us hear you

819
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: all the time. And they hate it. And I go,

820
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: you don't know what you like. You only think you

821
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: know what you like. And not only not only not

822
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: like how I see you, you're also something different for

823
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: every person in this room. And so we think we

824
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: get ourselves, but we only get our cells from an

825
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: introspective space.

826
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 2: That's right. And in any interaction there's about sixteen different

827
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: In any interaction between two people, there's about sixteen people there, right, correct, correct,

828
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: there's me that's perceiving me, there's a me that's perceiving you,

829
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 2: there's the me that's you know, there's a you that's

830
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: perceiving me, the you that's perceiving you. But what's more,

831
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: I'm also contextual, So there's a certain aspect of me

832
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: that I'm bringing out with you when there'll be a

833
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: different aspect that's brought around in a different context with

834
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: a different person, right, So you know we're a collection

835
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: of people within as well. We have this illusion that

836
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: were one thing, and then it's amazing that we can

837
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: even get on.

838
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: It all right, and then you get sorry, dude, go

839
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: on no.

840
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I'm a huge fan of naivete

841
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: and humility because once you if people truly understood, then

842
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: just know this stuff right, truly felt it, which is

843
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: why in my own public speaking, I try to get

844
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 2: people to feel what I'm saying. Now hear what I

845
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: say in some sense, as soon as you said it

846
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 2: to them, you've taken it from them. So I get

847
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 2: people standing up, I get people interacting because I want

848
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: them to embody it because as soon as it becomes embodied,

849
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 2: now you're shifting it to understanding, even if I even

850
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: if I can't explain it.

851
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 1: Well, I love the way that you with that musical piece.

852
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 1: Was it Tchaikovsky or Strauss or someone? Yeah, and you

853
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: like that really well known symphony piece and it's just

854
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 1: about coming to the big musical crescendo, and I'm listening

855
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: to it I'm like, this is all right, yeah, and

856
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: then you just stopped it and everyone's like, oh fuck exactly.

857
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: Because if I say your greatest need is closure, it's like, oh,

858
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: that's interesting. But if I don't say it and they

859
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 2: feel it's like, ah, yeah, now I get what you mean.

860
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you how that annoyed me. That example.

861
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 1: Fuck your example.

862
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, someone said I should actually give people closure after that,

863
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: because you know, we so need it, and I would

864
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: argue that, I mean, just you know, going off on

865
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 2: a bit of a tangent. Is people ask how can

866
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 2: we help people deal with uncertainty because uncertainty is we

867
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: hate uncertainty, right, We evolved too, except that in that

868
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 2: mindset of play with intentionality science, which is closure, right,

869
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: we love closure. I love closure. I hate uncertainty. I

870
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: would hate to be uncertained all the time. Right, But

871
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 2: I love closure so much that I'm willing to get

872
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: through uncertainty because you can't get closure, you can't get

873
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: understanding if you didn't have the question beforehand. Yes, right,

874
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: uncertainty by itself is pretty meaningless. Closure doesn't exist if

875
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: you didn't have four you know. I love the example

876
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 2: of an orgasm an orgasm is closure, but it doesn't

877
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 2: exist without the stuff that came before.

878
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

879
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 2: And what's more is you get the intrinsic An orgasm

880
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: is an intrinsic reward. It's evolution said, well, that's a

881
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 2: good idea. Let's keep them from that again, because if

882
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: we don't get that, we're going to get selected out.

883
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: But what's fascinating is we get the same type of

884
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: reward stimulut reward activation in our brain with an orgasm

885
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 2: we have food. With understanding understanding, you get a similar

886
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 2: kind of like mini orgasm. Yeah right, because evolution said,

887
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: whoa understanding is a good idea, because now these people

888
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 2: are going to be adaptable. Let's get them doing that. Ironically,

889
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 2: we almost design our whole culture to prevent the possibility

890
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 2: of understanding, much less understanding another person, because we try

891
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 2: to stand still. When the world changes, we try to

892
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: stand still even more. Imagine you're in Australia. Are you

893
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: a surfer?

894
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: I have surfed? I wouldn't call. All my listeners are

895
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: falling off their chairs. Hi, you can all get fucked,

896
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: I can serve.

897
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: Well. Imagine okay, imagine the waves coming in. You're standing

898
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: on your surfboard. Imagine trying to just not fall. Okay,

899
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 2: you're trying to keep your surfboard steady. The waves are

900
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: coming and just not going to fall. Imagine the energy

901
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: required to do that, Yeah, as opposed to just surf. Yes,

902
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 2: right to go with the waves. Right, our education, our

903
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: lives are set up to sort of bob in the

904
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: water with all these waves coming in and making sure

905
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: we don't fall. Yeah, why don't we actually create an

906
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 2: environment where we can actually surf with the waves. The

907
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 2: amount of energy required goes down, the risk that ironically

908
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: goes down. But we think the risk is in movement,

909
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: when in nature, life is movement. You stand still, you

910
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: get selected out. A relationship that doesn't move dies Love

911
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 2: that doesn't move deteriorates.

912
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: We need to give ourselves permission to fall off that

913
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: wave and go, ah, that wasn't too terrible. You know,

914
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: when you're talking about orgasms, I thought, and how you know,

915
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: orgasms trying to happen without all this lead up? Because

916
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: I'm essentially four nine years old.

917
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 2: It sounds like you're not celebrating the lead up bit.

918
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, the lead up spain a while, spin a while,

919
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 4: But I was thinking, imagine if if we were designed

920
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 4: or we evolved to have spontaneous idiopathic orgasms and you

921
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 4: just be.

922
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: You've just been in a business meeting, and you'd be like,

923
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: oh my god, no, no, no, anyway, that's just how

924
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: my mind works.

925
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 2: Some people do, and they actually have done experiments when

926
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: youre stimulating.

927
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: That's right, isn't it? That actually happens, doesn't it?

928
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 2: That actually happens, And there's you know, and you know,

929
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 2: they stimulate rats in that part of the brain and

930
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: they'll just you know, they hit the levity, stimulate that

931
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: part of the brain. They'll just keep stimulating and eventually

932
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: they just die of dehydration.

933
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: Wow.

934
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 2: So it's pretty active rewards. Yeah, but my appoint is

935
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: actually what's called an intrinsic reward, right, Right, It's something

936
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: we do for the reason for doing it. Thinking about surfing,

937
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: what's the reward of surfing? When the hell would we surf?

938
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: What's the reward of surfing? It's surfing?

939
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: Yes, do we need to explain it?

940
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: Right? But that's what evolution is like. Ah, because play

941
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 2: with intention, asking questions, not knowing is actually a good thing.

942
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 2: That's what kept us alive during evolution because that means

943
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: we could change with.

944
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: Change interesting thing with I mean, there are many interesting things.

945
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: But the irony is that most people, as you pointed out,

946
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: hate the unknown, the unfamiliar, the uncertain, and the uncomfortable.

947
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: But all of that essentially is life or periodically like

948
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: it's like, dude, that's lot. Have you have you been anywhere?

949
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: That's life? I mean, life is you know. But also

950
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: the other irony is that we'll me way and most

951
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: people I've worked with, where I've grown and learned and

952
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: evolve and gained insight and skill and awareness and competence

953
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: mostly is in the middle of all of that shit.

954
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: And so you know, you go where you grow, and

955
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: it's like also in the middle of that knowing that

956
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: you know that life is difficult, that that bad things

957
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: happen to good people, that the world I love it.

958
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: How people say the world's unfair or whatever, well, you know,

959
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: it just is what it is. But nonetheless, you know,

960
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: kids get cancer, wars happen, poverty happens, like terrible things happen,

961
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: and of course we don't celebrate any of those, but

962
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: we need to. I feel like we do ourselves a

963
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: disservice when we always take the easy option when we

964
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: always when we we always give in to instant gratification,

965
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: and there's so much great stuff when we say no

966
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: or no for now, and when we say yes to

967
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: something that is not fun, quick, easy, sexy or painless.

968
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 2: You know it's so true. I mean, And of course

969
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 2: we should be saying no, and we should also be

970
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 2: saying yes. The question is what are we saying no?

971
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 2: One yes too? And I don't want to reduce things

972
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: to rules. When I do my toxic I say, I'm

973
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 2: not going to give you any rules. We all want rules.

974
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 2: I'm not going to give you any because rules are

975
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,919
Speaker 2: biased towards efficiency and their fragile. With that said, one

976
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: strategy for thinking about no one yes is is the

977
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: thing expanding me? Or is it contracting me? So if

978
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 2: I say no to something, am I being contracted? Am

979
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: I reducing? If I say yes to it? Am I expanding?

980
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 2: With that said, we can also say yes to things

981
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 2: that actually contract us, Like yes to anger can contract us.

982
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 2: Which isn't to say anger is a bad idea. Sometimes

983
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: it's really important to be anger if something terrible is

984
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 2: happening to you. Anger can be a wonderful motivation, wonderful

985
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 2: using a sort of most literal sense wonderful in the

986
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,280
Speaker 2: sense of wonder to actually motivate you to action. Okay,

987
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: And it's the action that follows it is meaningful. It's

988
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 2: not the thing itself, because, as we're talking about from

989
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 2: the very beginning, there is no inherent meaning in the

990
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: stuff that's happening in the world. Stuff is happening in

991
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 2: the world, it's just it has no meaning. Light exists,

992
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 2: but it has no meaning. It's not red, it's not green,

993
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 2: it's not blue. In fact, we're sensitive to a very

994
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: small range of electromagnetic radiation. Right, So at the beginning

995
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 2: of the Bible, you know, it should have said God

996
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 2: should have said, let there be electromagnetic radiation, not let

997
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 2: there be lighted, because.

998
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: I say it, that'stid style.

999
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 2: So it's what you actually do with the information that matters.

1000
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 2: And are you doing it in a way that expands

1001
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 2: you or more importantly expands someone else, or is it

1002
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: contracting you? And that's where the yes and no come in.

1003
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 2: And that's maybe a principle as opposed to rule, that

1004
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 2: people can use for thinking about their yeses and nos.

1005
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 3: And that's adaptable in that right, can they change with

1006
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: that because someone whenever I'm in conversation, someone says, you know,

1007
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 3: there are two types of people. I'm going to explain

1008
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 3: to the rest of the evening, proving that there's more

1009
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 3: than two types of people. Right, Any absolute statement is

1010
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 3: almost always, at some point not correct, because everything is contextual.

1011
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I fucking hate that generalized science. Like

1012
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: there's an ad on TV at the moment in Australia

1013
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: and it says from the age of forty you will

1014
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: lose one percent of your muscle mess per year. And

1015
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, hang on, hang on, Like every single person

1016
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: in Australia, all twenty six million of us, all of us,

1017
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: are losing the same amount of muscle at the same rate.

1018
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: And it's like, I go, that's absolutely not true. But

1019
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: no one, no one says anything. No, there are so

1020
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: many variables around virtually everything. But we make these categorical

1021
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: statements as though they are fact, but they are so

1022
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: far from a fact, you know where, because people don't.

1023
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: If somebody in a white coat says something, people go, oh, okay, yep,

1024
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: well I'm going to die in five years, all right,

1025
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: then I best get ready.

1026
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And why is that ironically comfortable is because it's

1027
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 2: very certain. We love certainty so much, so much that

1028
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 2: people will actually choose predictable pain over uncertainty.

1029
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1030
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 2: If I say you know it, I'm going to shark

1031
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 2: you from time to time in a predictable manner. It's

1032
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 2: going to hurt or I'm not going to shock you.

1033
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 2: But there's going to be some uncertainty. So give me

1034
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 2: the shot the shop. And you see this in people's

1035
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: lives all the time, in my own as well. I mean,

1036
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 2: it's not like I escape from any of this. I'm

1037
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 2: just as human as anyone else. But learning, of course,

1038
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: is learning that you're trying to find those certainties that

1039
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 2: actually aren't serving you. But to do so means first

1040
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: you have to know that that's actually how it's working

1041
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 2: in the first place. If you don't have understanding, if

1042
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 2: you don't know why you see what you do, how

1043
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 2: you're ever going to see differently. Which is why I

1044
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 2: study perception, because the perception underpins everything it is to

1045
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 2: be you, right.

1046
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: So much great stuff. I want to ask something I

1047
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: was thinking about. I've lost it all right, let's go

1048
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: with Oh, no, that's right, you're talking about people would

1049
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: rather deal with something that's painful but familiar. Then step

1050
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: into uncertainty and whatever I was thinking. I've had that

1051
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: conversation with people about They're like, why do I stay

1052
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: in this shop relationship? And it could be a friendship,

1053
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: it could be a romance, it could be a marriage,

1054
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 1: it could be a business partnership. And my answer to

1055
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: that is, because you would rather the predictable, known, certain

1056
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: three out of ten that you're in, then stepping out

1057
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: of the three out of ten, and who knows you

1058
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: might end up in a one out of ten. So

1059
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: I'll stay with the three and you know, keep the

1060
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: door closed, because you're right, people would rather be in

1061
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: something that they know, they know what's coming. It's not great,

1062
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: it's periodically horrible, but I can cope. And but if

1063
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: I walk out on this, then my life could go

1064
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: to total shit and I'll regret what I did. So

1065
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 1: and now I'm fifty five years old.

1066
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 2: That's right. That happens all the time. That's happened in

1067
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 2: my own life. That's probably happened in everybody's life, right. Yeah,

1068
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 2: And with that said, even that's complex because you know,

1069
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 2: some people say we stay too often? Do we too

1070
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 2: often stay in bad relationships? Too long.

1071
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: Right.

1072
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 2: With that said, sometimes the greatest relationships, you know, if

1073
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 2: you get through struggles, that getting through process is actually

1074
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 2: incredibly bonding. So we can equally give up on things

1075
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 2: far too quickly. I mean, a really really challenging question,

1076
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 2: maybe an impossible question to answers, which I actually asked

1077
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 2: my mentor and ask the number of people I ask you,

1078
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 2: is how do you know when to stop? How do

1079
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 2: you know when to stop anything?

1080
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: Right?

1081
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 2: It's a really difficult question to answer.

1082
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: I think that question, I think that answer is different

1083
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: for different people and.

1084
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 2: On different context, different situations. Right, and knowing why we're stopping?

1085
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 2: Is it self hard? Am I stop me because I

1086
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: just can't be bothered because I've never learned how to

1087
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 2: work hard, or because I'm just I just love just

1088
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 2: new bodies or new Ever, then you know I'm a

1089
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 2: novel seeker, and I'm afraid of commitment, you know, all

1090
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 2: kinds of reasons. So that's why the greatest pursuit in life,

1091
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 2: I think, in some sense is the pursuit of self honesty. Yes,

1092
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 2: it's really really hard to achieve it, so it requires

1093
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 2: a lot of questioning of oneself.

1094
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: There's a model I forget I should know who it is.

1095
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: But it's in psychology and it's it's kind of four stages.

1096
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: And stage one is self it's self reflection, and then

1097
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: so reflection reflecting on who we are, how we are,

1098
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 1: why we you know, just just reflecting on the self.

1099
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: Number two is self awareness, when we realize certain things

1100
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: and we acknowledge certain traits or behaviors that generally might

1101
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: not be so great. Then there's a self evaluation stage,

1102
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: which is number three, which is where we acknowledge where

1103
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 1: we are and we compare it to where or who

1104
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: we would like to be. And then number four is

1105
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: self regulation, is being able to change it and the

1106
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: process of like real self awareness. It is very difficult

1107
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: because again everything for me is subjective, like there's you know,

1108
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: it's like I everything that I evaluate, I'm evaluating, perceiving

1109
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 1: processing through the craigfilter. Like I've got fifty eight years

1110
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: of programming that I've got to deal with and acknowledge

1111
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: and be aware of and try and work around. Like

1112
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: you think, every person listening to this has in some way,

1113
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 1: shape or form been program condition told train their whole

1114
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: life without even being aware of that conditioning and programming.

1115
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 1: And now they sit listening to this twenty thousand or

1116
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: so people having twenty thousand experiences, and some have already

1117
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: turned off, and some are leaning in, going this is

1118
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: fucking ace, and some are like, yeah, maybe I could

1119
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: implement that. But the commonality of you and I and

1120
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: this conversation the same stimulus. But you know that it's

1121
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 1: a really it's a very difficult to become fully aware

1122
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 1: and to have a level of consciousness of who you

1123
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: are and how you are beyond the programming. It's a

1124
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 1: I think it's it's not impossible, but it's very hard.

1125
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 2: It's not impossible, and it's I think that at least

1126
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 2: my aim in life is to have that and rather

1127
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 2: to pursue it, not to have it constantly changing. So

1128
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 2: that's why I suggest people defining themselves in terms of

1129
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 2: a verb rather than a noun. Yes, it's defining oneself.

1130
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 2: Is I'm in the pursuit of that? Well, if you're

1131
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 2: truly in the pursuit of that, then you have to

1132
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 2: engage in every conflict in a different way. You have

1133
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 2: to engage in every conflict with the possibility that you're wrong,

1134
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 2: knowing that you're engaged with that conflict, with the assumptions

1135
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 2: of the other person with your history, et cetera. Then

1136
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 2: knowing actually that's what that person is doing as well.

1137
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 2: Now only then do you ironically conflicts is a beautiful thing.

1138
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful thing. The problem is not conflicts how

1139
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 2: we engage in it. But instead we try to, you know,

1140
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 2: engage in conflict with the need to convince to not move,

1141
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 2: to be on that surfboard and still have the waves

1142
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 2: coming in and not move. What if you actually engaged

1143
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 2: conflict with a question, you know, engage with the aim

1144
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 2: to understand another person, not to not to validate them.

1145
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 2: Too often we confuse those two things. We think to

1146
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 2: you know, if you agree with me, well then you

1147
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 2: must have understood me right looking for validation. What they

1148
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 2: really want is to be understood my view. So yeah,

1149
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 2: so this pursuit opens up possibility. The other strategy closes

1150
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 2: possibly coming back to that, you know, yes and no question,

1151
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 2: is it opening or is it closing? And then is

1152
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 2: my response opening me or is my response closing me?

1153
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 2: And if it's closing me, think about my emotions. Your

1154
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,959
Speaker 2: emotions are sort of they're telling you, not about the world,

1155
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 2: they're telling you about you. If I'm afraid. It's like, Okay,

1156
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 2: it's not that this thing has an inherent meaning of afraidness.

1157
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 2: It's I'm afraid of it. So why am I afraid

1158
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: of this? What's that telling me about me? What's that

1159
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 2: telling you about my expectations assumptions in the situation? What's

1160
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 2: it challenging me? Now, maybe those challenges are a good idea.

1161
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 2: It's not like it's a bad idea. Inherently, yes, but

1162
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 2: now it creates opportunity for a question.

1163
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: Yes.

1164
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 2: And we also have in our brain kind of an

1165
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 2: intrinsic understandtrinsic knowing or feeling that when we know we're

1166
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 2: being dishonest. And what's interesting is that there will be

1167
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 2: a part of your brain that gets active when that happens.

1168
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 2: And when we then lie and we get away with it,

1169
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: the next time, the amount of activity that part of

1170
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 2: the brain goes down, and then it goes down again,

1171
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 2: and then goes down. And every time we win with

1172
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 2: a lie, we lose that sense of guilt, which is

1173
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 2: a real problem because guilt is a wonderful thing in

1174
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 2: some sense. If you didn't have guilt, how would you

1175
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 2: know that you did something wrong? How would you have

1176
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 2: the motivation to do something. It's like the opposite of

1177
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 2: an intrinsic reward.

1178
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 1: I wonder if people can become sociopaths, because when we

1179
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 1: talk about sociopathy we talk a lot about genetic disposition

1180
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: to that. I wonder if people, via the process you

1181
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 1: just spoke about, can actually become legit sociopaths who like

1182
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: basically don't feel bad about anything.

1183
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then in some sense, it's that what you

1184
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 2: can argue again, I think everything comes from uncertainty ultimately

1185
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 2: is ultimate driver because think about how certain that person is. Yeah,

1186
01:07:55,120 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 2: it must be a wonderful feeling that you knew everything right,

1187
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 2: everything you say is truth. My god, I must feel

1188
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 2: great right. So and so we can engineer our lives

1189
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 2: around that. We can engineer our decision making around that,

1190
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 2: how we interact with people. But it's not such a

1191
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 2: good person to be around.

1192
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hey, when we talk about I just want to

1193
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 1: kind of take a left turn for a minute and

1194
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 1: then come back to where we are a version.

1195
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 2: I love turning left. I have whole blogs it's about turning.

1196
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: Left cold it So, as I told, I set up

1197
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 1: the first personal training centers in Australia. So I was

1198
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 1: the first trainer. I employed five hundred trainers in my time.

1199
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 1: I had four gyms and or four PT centers, and

1200
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 1: we did really well. We had a really great little business,

1201
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 1: and I you know, taught exercise science and all the

1202
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 1: courses and all those things. And so we talk about

1203
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,599
Speaker 1: progressive overload, or we talk about progressive resistance. It's training.

1204
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 1: And the idea is that, you know, we do something,

1205
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: we lift something, move something, we work against resistance. We

1206
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 1: do something that's hard, and we do ten of them

1207
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: and we do three sets of ten or whatever we do,

1208
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: and then next week we do the same and we

1209
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: go it's a bit easier when we do three sets

1210
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 1: of twelve with the same weight. Then eventually we lift

1211
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: the weight, move the reps. We more volume, more sets,

1212
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: more reps, more intensity. But over time the experience is well,

1213
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 1: this thing that was really hard is now literally physiologically

1214
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 1: really easy. So my relationship and my perception and my

1215
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:40,799
Speaker 1: ability around this task with this weight has really changed.

1216
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 1: And so by working against the resistance, literally resistance training

1217
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 1: progressive resistance, by working against the resistance, I adapt. I

1218
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:54,559
Speaker 1: am now stronger, I'm more capable, I'm more competent with

1219
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 1: this thing. I'm more powerful, I've got more speed, and

1220
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,799
Speaker 1: I can create better performance outcomes as an athlete because

1221
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: I went through this thing that was hard. So too,

1222
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 1: when people go to me, how do I, craig, how

1223
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 1: do I overcome my fear of public speaking? I say

1224
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 1: by public speaking? Right, Because we can't get good at

1225
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 1: what we won't do, and we can't master what we avoid.

1226
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: So my long winded segue your honor is, do you

1227
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 1: think we should train for the unknown, the uncertain, the unfamiliar,

1228
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 1: and the uncomfortable? Do you think we should train ourselves

1229
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 1: to be better in that space?

1230
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And that's actually that's in some sense the whole

1231
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 2: point of my work is your brain's like a muscle.

1232
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:46,760
Speaker 2: You use it to lose it, right, And you know

1233
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 2: this This has always been an inherent passion of mine,

1234
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 2: but not inherent, but a passion mine for a long time.

1235
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 2: And Marion Diamond, my one of my mentors at Berkeley,

1236
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 2: wonderful on erful woman, and she showed how actually, if

1237
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 2: you raise rats and enriched environment, the brain will actually

1238
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,240
Speaker 2: increase and its complexity, and if you raise rats in

1239
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 2: a deprived environment, they'll decrease their complexity. Right, And a

1240
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 2: more complex brain is a more open, more agile, more

1241
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 2: adaptable brain. It's a stronger brain in some sense. But

1242
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 2: you only get that by effectively putting yourself in complexity.

1243
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 2: But initially, when you do that, it's like lifting a weight.

1244
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 2: It's like, wow, this is more complex than I had before.

1245
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 2: Now I've gone from ten kilos to fifteen kilos. But

1246
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 2: now I can live in that complexity and I'm figuring

1247
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 2: it out. Okay, now let's increase. Now I'm going to

1248
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 2: twenty kilos. I am more complex. And each time you

1249
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 2: do that, your brain is becoming more complex itself. And

1250
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,640
Speaker 2: the reason is because the amount of energy required for

1251
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 2: your brain is massive relative to in your muscles. So

1252
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 2: at one statistic is twenty percent of the energy we

1253
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 2: consume goes to two percent of our body mass, which

1254
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 2: is your brain. So thinking is really expensive, which is

1255
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 2: again why I say so few people do it because

1256
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 2: it truly costs energy to think, and it literally costs

1257
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:06,799
Speaker 2: even more energy to think differently, because you're literally growing

1258
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 2: brain cells, you're growing connectivity, you're growing tissue. Right, and

1259
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 2: during evolution, spending energy was a bad idea, right, I mean,

1260
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:19,400
Speaker 2: how many how many chips do you see going out

1261
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 2: on a jog for the sake, right, I mean, like,

1262
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:30,600
Speaker 2: come on, we're eating lettuce here, you're going for runs.

1263
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 2: I mean, what a stupid what you know, Charlie was

1264
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 2: great shape, but you know, so he's dying of exhaustion

1265
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 2: because you know he can't he can't take in enough

1266
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 2: calories to support his lifestyle here. Yeah, which is why

1267
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,759
Speaker 2: you go to Safari. If the cheetah, if she doesn't

1268
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 2: catch her prey by the fifth go, she's dead. So

1269
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 2: she's going to consider her energy and tell she has

1270
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 2: that sense. So we evolved effectively to be sort of

1271
01:12:54,760 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 2: like couch potato, Facebook, watching McDonald's eaters right, kind of

1272
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 2: our peak, right, because we're massively conserving energy, we're taking

1273
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:08,160
Speaker 2: them in as many calories as possible, and we're doing

1274
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 2: sort of social but it isn't social, right, And so

1275
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 2: each of these industries like Facebook sort of triggers on

1276
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 2: sort of the our need for social and McDonald's on

1277
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 2: our need for fats and sugars and you know, and

1278
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:24,759
Speaker 2: the television our need to sit still. Energy is hard,

1279
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 2: and so thinking is hard takes energy.

1280
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 1: So it's funny because when you said that, this is

1281
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: what's sprung to mind. This is not a word of

1282
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:35,680
Speaker 1: a lie. Last week outside my gym, not I don't

1283
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: own it, but the gym I try that. They had

1284
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 1: like an a frame board and it said making said

1285
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 1: the excuses don't burn calories, and I went in and

1286
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 1: corrected them. I went it depends on the excuses. But

1287
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 1: like sometimes coming up with a great excuse, it's there's

1288
01:13:58,280 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 1: quite a cost.

1289
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 2: Well, but that's actually a long term cost. But what's

1290
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 2: interesting is actually we get a trin we get an

1291
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 2: intrinsic we get a reward from procrastination.

1292
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1293
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 2: Why because we conserve energy. So we wounded for that

1294
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 2: conservation of energy. Yeah. So so it's really difficult to

1295
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 2: to uh uh, you know, to that's you know, one

1296
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 2: of the one of the biggest challenges, you know, of

1297
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:26,800
Speaker 2: all this conversation. And let's hope that some of it,

1298
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a piece or two of it. It

1299
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 2: was at least from Mina said, you know, everything that

1300
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 2: you said is deeply but you know, from my straight

1301
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 2: let's you know, maybe they takes something away, but unless

1302
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 2: they actually want to, no one's going to do anything.

1303
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1304
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:42,600
Speaker 2: So you can have all the gym, you can do

1305
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:46,000
Speaker 2: the training all this information, but the fundamental point is

1306
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 2: you have to want to, because if you don't want to,

1307
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 2: you're not going to apply it.

1308
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 1: I think there's another part to it, and my part too,

1309
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 1: is it because I've been talking to people who want

1310
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 1: to get in shape for forty years literally, and people

1311
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:02,719
Speaker 1: who want to change their body, habits, behaviors, outcomes, look, feel, function, performance, diet,

1312
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, right, and even athletes that I work with,

1313
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:11,640
Speaker 1: I go don't. I don't care so much what you

1314
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 1: do when people are watching you, when you've got, you know,

1315
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: a round of applause, or you're motivated. I care what

1316
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 1: you do when you can't be fucked and you don't

1317
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: want to do it, and it's not fun, it's not quick,

1318
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 1: it's not sexy, it's not painless. I care what you

1319
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 1: do then, because like everybody's a champion when they're motivated,

1320
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: when you're in the zone, everyone's a champion. But I

1321
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 1: believe the make or break is what you can do

1322
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 1: when you really don't want to do it, while knowing

1323
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 1: that you need to do it to create that outcome.

1324
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. I have three gremlins.

1325
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 2: There are twenty twenty two and twenty three beautiful people.

1326
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:54,679
Speaker 2: And I said to them that you will when things

1327
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 2: are When things are easy, you actually don't have much choics.

1328
01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 2: You don't have much freedom when things are when things

1329
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 2: are happy, what are you gonna do. You're gonna keep

1330
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 2: doing what you did before. There's really no choice there, right,

1331
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:07,840
Speaker 2: unless you're a nihilist. When you actually have choices when

1332
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 2: things are hard, that's actually where freedom lives. Yes, Because

1333
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,639
Speaker 2: when things are hard, you can do reflexively what you've

1334
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,600
Speaker 2: done before. Yes, And those might be a good idea, right,

1335
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 2: it might be a good idea to go to anger

1336
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 2: or something like that. But you can also not do

1337
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:25,799
Speaker 2: what's obvious. You can also look away from the obvious.

1338
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 2: You can also do something different, right, And when you

1339
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:34,879
Speaker 2: that's when you actually both reveal yourself and you create yourself.

1340
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,719
Speaker 2: So you're revealing your past and you're creating your future

1341
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:42,639
Speaker 2: in that moment. And you don't do that when things

1342
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 2: are lovely. Anyone could do that, right, You don't have

1343
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 2: to be you don't have to do all that clever

1344
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 2: and strong and all that to do. You know who

1345
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 2: can't do that?

1346
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1347
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:53,599
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah? But do what that said joy itself can

1348
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:56,760
Speaker 2: be hard. That also can be a practice and a

1349
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 2: training because we can also become train ourselves to be cynical,

1350
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 2: because cynical is easy. Yeah, you can't stand the pseudo

1351
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:07,439
Speaker 2: intellectualism right finding out what's wrong with something? Who can't

1352
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 2: do that. There's a million reasons why something won't work,

1353
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 2: but we present it if it's somehow intelligent. It's not

1354
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 2: finding out why something will work or piquing the possibility

1355
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 2: of something might work. Like starting your company. You know

1356
01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 2: that was a risk. I'm not interested in confidence. I'm

1357
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:26,760
Speaker 2: interested in courage that require courage doing it knowing that

1358
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:27,519
Speaker 2: it might fail.

1359
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 1: You know what's an interesting motivator speaking of starting like,

1360
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: I had a really significant awareness by the time I

1361
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 1: was twenty one or two bo that I didn't want

1362
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:41,839
Speaker 1: to work for anyone. And it wasn't because I was lazy,

1363
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 1: and it wasn't because I was a rebel. I just didn't.

1364
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 1: I thought, like I used to watch my dad and

1365
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 1: some of his friends and some older people which really

1366
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 1: went old but to me old, and I thought, I

1367
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 1: can't do that, like I don't want to, like I

1368
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 1: want to work with people. But and so for me,

1369
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:03,800
Speaker 1: starting my company was more about becoming aware of what

1370
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:07,040
Speaker 1: I didn't want than I did. Like, it was what

1371
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 1: I was moving away from, which is sitting in a cubicle,

1372
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,680
Speaker 1: working in an office, wearing a suit and tie, belonging

1373
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 1: to a group I didn't really want to belong to. Like,

1374
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:22,680
Speaker 1: So for me, that was the motivation. Was is recognizing

1375
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: clearly what I didn't want. Yeah, that's a moving moving

1376
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:27,680
Speaker 1: away from it.

1377
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and in some maybe that's kind of

1378
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 2: life in a in a really beautiful way, which is

1379
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:39,599
Speaker 2: maybe we have much more control in what we move

1380
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 2: away from and not so much control over what we're

1381
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:42,919
Speaker 2: moving towards.

1382
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1383
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 2: I'm not a big believer in goals, at least I'm

1384
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,759
Speaker 2: not a believer in achieving goals. Yeah, I'm a believer

1385
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 2: in setting or sure, but there should be reasons for

1386
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 2: getting out of bed. Yeah, because if you've achieved your goal,

1387
01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 2: you've probably missed so much along the way. What's more,

1388
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 2: you define yourself in terms of the goal, Well, that

1389
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:05,360
Speaker 2: goal is fleeting. Even if you achieved, it's like, Okay,

1390
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:07,760
Speaker 2: I got it, that lasted a second yea, But I

1391
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 2: might have destroyed people along the way. I may have

1392
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 2: destroyed my relationships along the way? Am I destroyed my

1393
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:14,799
Speaker 2: health along the way. It's like, great, you achieved your goal, brilliant,

1394
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 2: well done, but you're living a pretty miserable life. Yeah again,

1395
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:21,719
Speaker 2: thinking about identity and goals, why don't we set our goals,

1396
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 2: are going to the verbs and the process about how

1397
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:29,719
Speaker 2: I'm going to achieve it, not simply that I'm achieving it, right.

1398
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 1: And you know the interesting thing also that's interesting, But

1399
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:36,599
Speaker 1: another interesting thing is so many people have this idea

1400
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: of so I talk about external world, internal world scene

1401
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 1: unseen so situation, circumstance, environment, government, weather, money, job, car, house,

1402
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 1: physical body, and then the internal world thought, feelings, emotions, ideas, creativity, pain, pleasure,

1403
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:56,439
Speaker 1: all that, right, and all of the goals or most

1404
01:19:56,439 --> 01:20:00,400
Speaker 1: of the goals that we normal people set, all about

1405
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:03,639
Speaker 1: the external world. It's about my house, it's about my income,

1406
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 1: it's about it's about my academic this or that. It's

1407
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 1: about you know, writing a book. And none of these

1408
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:12,519
Speaker 1: things are bad, by the way, but often when we

1409
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 1: get there, like I've worked with so many people who

1410
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 1: wanted to achieve a certain look or weight or size

1411
01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:23,599
Speaker 1: or whatever, thousands and we got there. They got there,

1412
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 1: and then they get there, and you know how many

1413
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: people are truly satisfied, hardly any Yeah, it's wherever they are,

1414
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:34,479
Speaker 1: it's not where they want to be. Whatever they own

1415
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:37,800
Speaker 1: or have, it's not enough. Whatever their weight, it's not

1416
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:41,519
Speaker 1: the right weight, whatever their strength, whatever they're it's not

1417
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:45,440
Speaker 1: It's like I feel like, and this is maybe another podcast,

1418
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:50,280
Speaker 1: but we try and resolve internal things with external solutions.

1419
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 2: The proxies, the proxies for something else. So often when

1420
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:56,720
Speaker 2: people are working, even on sealves, they're just looking in

1421
01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:59,240
Speaker 2: the wrong places. They feel like they're looking, they're looking

1422
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:01,439
Speaker 2: around where they're should look. Because if they're really to

1423
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:03,840
Speaker 2: look in the right place, they would have to start

1424
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:06,760
Speaker 2: admitting certain things. They'd have to become aware of certain things.

1425
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 2: Once you have that awareness, you're a bit screwed right

1426
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 2: with the Once you have awareness, it's like shit, now

1427
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:14,799
Speaker 2: do I do well? There are only a couple of options.

1428
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:19,600
Speaker 2: You either do something right, you actively ignore it, or

1429
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 2: you blame it right. And so often people will go

1430
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 2: to ignore or blame as opposed to actually doing because

1431
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 2: if I'm actually going to do something about it, which

1432
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:33,080
Speaker 2: to me, I'm not in you know, I'm not so

1433
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 2: interested in words you know, people say I love you

1434
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:37,320
Speaker 2: or whatever, it's like, okay, you know some of the

1435
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:40,240
Speaker 2: worst things have done in the in with that name

1436
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 2: or that word in mind, It's like, but what did

1437
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 2: you do? What was your action? Because it's that action

1438
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 2: that reveals truth? Yes, right, because we all kind of

1439
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:54,600
Speaker 2: know what we're supposed to say. Yeah, but from you

1440
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,720
Speaker 2: for your brain, if you don't have that alignment between intentions,

1441
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:01,439
Speaker 2: words and actions, you then start feeling stressed. So when

1442
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:04,600
Speaker 2: we were talking about self honesty before and that that

1443
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,479
Speaker 2: center of your brain that's feeling that guilt, we kind

1444
01:22:07,479 --> 01:22:09,599
Speaker 2: of know when that's not of alignment. And then when

1445
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:13,000
Speaker 2: it's out of alignment, rather than take ownership responsibility, it's like,

1446
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 2: well that was that's kind of you know, it was

1447
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 2: less his.

1448
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:22,320
Speaker 1: Fault, right, But I mean it normally do you know what?

1449
01:22:22,439 --> 01:22:24,599
Speaker 1: Do you know how much hate I get? Because everyone

1450
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:30,360
Speaker 1: literally loves Melissa way more than me, which is her. Hey, mate,

1451
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 1: we're going to wind up, and I so love talking

1452
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 1: to you, and I would love it. I know you're busy,

1453
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:38,320
Speaker 1: but gee, I'd love to have you back again in

1454
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:42,760
Speaker 1: a month or three. But how do people how do

1455
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,479
Speaker 1: people find you connect with you by what's your what's

1456
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:46,360
Speaker 1: your latest book?

1457
01:22:46,400 --> 01:22:48,719
Speaker 2: Called latest? First called Deviate.

1458
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 1: You know when I first read it, I thought it

1459
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 1: said deviate deviant.

1460
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of that's kind of its point because

1461
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:02,040
Speaker 2: people to deviate, I think everyone everyone's a misfit. Yeah,

1462
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:06,479
Speaker 2: deate is really just to be oneself. Yeah, right, we're

1463
01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:08,640
Speaker 2: all feeling misfits. The question is whether or not you

1464
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 2: embrace it. The question is what's a reference point for

1465
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 2: your next step? Is it everybody else? I'm not a

1466
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:16,120
Speaker 2: real believer in rebels because rebels are just as in

1467
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 2: reference to people who are conformists. It's just they're moving

1468
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:21,559
Speaker 2: in the opposite direction. They're still making reference to everybody

1469
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 2: else right where. It's a misfits like I don't know

1470
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 2: where I'm going, but I'm going to take a step

1471
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 2: here because it feels right, and I know where everybody

1472
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 2: else is, but I think I need to go this way,

1473
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:31,720
Speaker 2: and things like that, and they're figuring it out and

1474
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:33,640
Speaker 2: then they look up and they think no one's around me.

1475
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:36,360
Speaker 2: So there's all loneliness with misfits, which is why we

1476
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 2: have the Lab of Misfits. So then you can create

1477
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,640
Speaker 2: a community of misfits, like oh, Okay, right, we're all

1478
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 2: in different places, but we're all kind of in the

1479
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 2: different places together.

1480
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:45,479
Speaker 1: So the problem is, once you get a room full

1481
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 1: of widows, there are not widos anymore.

1482
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 2: Well, I s was that Maybe I actually have to

1483
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 2: think about that one.

1484
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:57,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to get a room full of misfits.

1485
01:23:57,600 --> 01:23:59,879
Speaker 1: Nobody's a misfit a misfit.

1486
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe that's not a bad idea. But isn't

1487
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:05,759
Speaker 2: that What isn't that where every room is in fact

1488
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 2: people acknowledge it or not, but the so where they

1489
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 2: can find So there's the Lab of Misfits website, which

1490
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 2: is Labmisfits dot com. The relevance there is that people

1491
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:21,479
Speaker 2: can go to blogs, adventure blogs, things about perception. The

1492
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:24,519
Speaker 2: whole website set up to expand people's perception. They can

1493
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 2: take part in experiments and things. The other places are

1494
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:32,680
Speaker 2: are Instagram. So there's a personal Instagram which is my

1495
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 2: name Boloto, and then there's a Lab of Misfits Instagram.

1496
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 1: Do you do a podcast yourself?

1497
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:41,719
Speaker 2: I do, so I do a blog and then I've

1498
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 2: been turning that into a podcast and now we're going

1499
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:47,879
Speaker 2: to start doing conversations. And the conversations are about expanding perception.

1500
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,519
Speaker 1: You listen to May telling you what you should do,

1501
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:56,680
Speaker 1: ignore me, but I would. I can't guarantee, but I

1502
01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:00,360
Speaker 1: could almost guarantee that if you did a plug cast,

1503
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:03,759
Speaker 1: it would do very very well, very well.

1504
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 2: Oh thank you. Well, there's one out there, but it's

1505
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:10,760
Speaker 2: mainly just me monologuing. But I think it'd be very

1506
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 2: interesting to have. I mean, I love having conversations. I

1507
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 2: find everybody. I find everyone has an interesting, important story,

1508
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:19,800
Speaker 2: and I love meeting people for the very first time

1509
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:23,679
Speaker 2: influence of business, meaning without doing any checks on them. Yeah, right,

1510
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 2: Because I am I'm aware of as many biases as

1511
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:28,479
Speaker 2: anyone else, any assumption as well, So I want to

1512
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:31,720
Speaker 2: try to and meet someone without all those bias assumptions

1513
01:25:31,760 --> 01:25:35,479
Speaker 2: like okay, who are you right now? And so do

1514
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 2: very little research on it. So I find that interesting and.

1515
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:41,799
Speaker 1: I always but I do the sign but it's driven

1516
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 1: by laziness.

1517
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:47,599
Speaker 2: Or I just have a really good justification for my laziness.

1518
01:25:47,640 --> 01:25:48,599
Speaker 2: That's also possible.

1519
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,879
Speaker 1: No, I think yours is true curiosity. Let's say goodbye,

1520
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,720
Speaker 1: but stay there and we'll say goodbye off here, but

1521
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:59,720
Speaker 1: let's do our official goodbye by lot. I thank you

1522
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 1: so much, much for coming on the new project. We

1523
01:26:02,320 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 1: love chatting to you, and I'm going to keep I'm

1524
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:07,599
Speaker 1: going to get your book, I'm going to read it,

1525
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:11,160
Speaker 1: and I'm going to follow you, and if I'm going

1526
01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 1: to be honest, I'm probably going to stalk you. So

1527
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:15,719
Speaker 1: You're welcome, wonderful.

1528
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:16,720
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to it.

1529
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 1: I'll just for a long, creepy relationship. Melissa. Do we

1530
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:23,400
Speaker 1: get a tip of approval?

1531
01:26:24,040 --> 01:26:26,719
Speaker 2: That was brilliant? Thank you so much for your time.

1532
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:29,599
Speaker 2: I know our listeners are going to love this episode,

1533
01:26:29,680 --> 01:26:30,639
Speaker 2: so thank you so much.

1534
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:34,040
Speaker 1: Thanks mate, stay there well, say goodbye. Thanks everyone. So

1535
01:26:34,240 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 1: yea