Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is
Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into
Speaker 1: this world. This is part two of my chat with
Speaker 1: high profile investigative journalists Liza Hayes. In part one, we
Speaker 1: got a sense of the life of a high profile
Speaker 1: television presenter and a globe trotting journalists with sixty minutes.
Speaker 1: In this part, but we took a deep dive into
Speaker 1: some of the truly fascinating stories covered by Liz, including
Speaker 1: her involvement in the hunt for theorists pedophile Dolly done,
Speaker 1: what it was like in Camp x ray, where Australian
Speaker 1: David Hicks was held, her sit down with survivors of
Speaker 1: the Link Cafe and her meetings with serial killers. We
Speaker 1: also talked about the death of Liz's father, which resulted
Speaker 1: in her reporting on her most difficult story. Liz Hayes,
Speaker 1: welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Nice to still be here.
Speaker 1: I haven't kicked you out yet or you haven't stormed
Speaker 1: out yet. Can I ask you a favorite? Could you
Speaker 1: just say I am Liz Hayes.
Speaker 2: Well, you don't say I am Li Hayes. You say
Speaker 2: I'm Liz ha Oh.
Speaker 1: Okay, certainly, see you've correctly, You've corrected me. I'm Gary
Speaker 1: jubilan Is Eye Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: How was that excellent?
Speaker 1: Thank you? Thank you?
Speaker 2: Maybe you know it's there is an intonation that you
Speaker 2: have to get right, Okay, get it just maybe in
Speaker 2: front of the mirrors.
Speaker 1: Okay, not with practice, this could be hello, Okay. Now,
Speaker 1: in regards to interviews, when you're interviewing people, I've seen
Speaker 1: your interview technique. You like to get people people relaxed
Speaker 1: and then then you hit them with the hard questions.
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, no, look I think everybody is at their
Speaker 2: best when they don't feel you know, threatened, or if
Speaker 2: they feel relaxed as comfortable as they can. I think
Speaker 2: that's a that's a given. I think all all people
Speaker 2: will respond no matter who they are, actually when they
Speaker 2: feel you know, they're feeling reasonable about themselves or this
Speaker 2: is you know, it's really hard to say to people
Speaker 2: just relax when you've got about four cameras around them
Speaker 2: and it's just you and whoever, and you know it's
Speaker 2: quite dark everywhere else. But ultimately I just try to
Speaker 2: engage them at a level where they feel it's okay,
Speaker 2: and I say, look at you, this is all up
Speaker 2: to you. You know, you know the answers I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm asking the questions and.
Speaker 1: People they're very aware if you're talking to them and
Speaker 1: if you're trying to nail them or you're giving revealing
Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself making them feel relaxed, and then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always look if it's if it's a bad guy,
Speaker 2: as you would say, I don't give them anything. No,
Speaker 2: I have every They know they know why they're there,
Speaker 2: and that's part of the interviewing technique is to know
Speaker 2: why you're there, what you're aiming to achieve what you're
Speaker 2: hoping to get. What's this story about? So you pretty
Speaker 2: much know what you are achieving or would like to achieve.
Speaker 2: Your research is probably told you what the answers are.
Speaker 2: But sometimes something totally different comes up, helps up, and
Speaker 2: you obviously deal with that. But I quite like people
Speaker 2: feeling like this is a moment for them, if that's
Speaker 2: what the story is about. I don't have any qualms
Speaker 2: in bowling up the appropriately difficult question. I don't like
Speaker 2: I'm not a natural combative person, but I don't have
Speaker 2: problems doing it if that's what's required.
Speaker 1: That's interesting you say that I found that I'd come
Speaker 1: out of in the views where I've had to go
Speaker 1: hard and I'd be drained because it takes that emotional energy.
Speaker 1: But you don't feel good about yourself either.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not you know, we don't live our lives
Speaker 2: every time we go to the to the supermarket nailing
Speaker 2: that pool girl about you know? Is that price right?
Speaker 2: You know? No, it's not how we live our lives normally.
Speaker 2: But when we're having to deal and reveal things are
Speaker 2: and call people to account, then you have to there's
Speaker 2: no way around that. I didn't. I never I guess
Speaker 2: it's not my natural tactic. Go great today now, very jubilant.
Speaker 1: But you do. I see it in some journeys and
Speaker 1: there's almost a smugglingness when they've when they've nailed nail
Speaker 1: a person. I don't think that's the right way to go.
Speaker 2: And I think when it comes to television at least
Speaker 2: I think the viewers can see and they will make
Speaker 2: a decision also about you and the questions you ask
Speaker 2: and how you ask them and if you know, if
Speaker 2: you're not careful, they will have turned on you and
Speaker 2: somehow rather like the Baddie weird, but it happens. So
Speaker 2: you know, you have to have a fair minded approach
Speaker 2: to those things. But if somebody is just out lying,
Speaker 2: you have very little choice but to say.
Speaker 1: And go back and present and present the facts and
Speaker 1: call them into account. Okay, you relax, Oh yeah, it's
Speaker 1: all good. All right. Well, now I'm going to ask
Speaker 1: you a question, and this is in my detailed research
Speaker 1: about Liz Hayes. Reading the book your book, what I wrote,
Speaker 1: it's come to my attention that you cohabitated with well
Speaker 1: known TV presenter Richard Wilkinson. Yes, but in the do
Speaker 1: you care to explain yourself?
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the platonic sense I want to make And
Speaker 2: that's one of the things I've had to say over
Speaker 2: and over. Guess what. I did not go out with Richard.
Speaker 2: We shared an apartment together. But yes, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: Actually we had a ball, had a great time. He
Speaker 2: was he was just doing MTV, that was you know,
Speaker 2: and he'd come out of a marriage. And we're in
Speaker 2: the back of a limo going to a charity event
Speaker 2: and he told me that, you know, his world had
Speaker 2: fallen over and he didn't have anywhere to live. Do
Speaker 2: you think he meant that? I set up and I
Speaker 2: didn't even know. Yes, I can be by the way anyway.
Speaker 2: I said, look, I've got a spare bedroom and a
Speaker 2: spear bathroom actually, so if if you get stuck. He
Speaker 2: arrived the next day. He was stuck anyway. But it
Speaker 2: turned out to be a fabulous friendship, a great We
Speaker 2: had a great time. And look, he's popular. He was
Speaker 2: a very popular man. I have to say, I've had
Speaker 2: a lot of had a lot of girlfriends.
Speaker 1: I have to say, we've never picked it.
Speaker 2: But I know and look to be fair to him
Speaker 2: because if he hears this and thinks it's one side,
Speaker 2: and he'll say he endured a few interesting characters on
Speaker 2: my behalf as well.
Speaker 1: So okay, well secret should stay secret. And yeah, we
Speaker 1: talked in part one about the people's right for privacy
Speaker 1: and I respect your right for privacy. Yes, we'll move on. Okay,
Speaker 1: Well this is I catch skill as we jump from
Speaker 1: one thing to another. But a crime that had an
Speaker 1: impact on the nation, and I was actually involved in
Speaker 1: it too, as doing the crime scene was the Link
Speaker 1: Cafe siege and you had an opportunity or you did
Speaker 1: interview the survivors are the hostages of that as a
Speaker 1: collective group of people. I know that had an impact
Speaker 1: on you. It took something out of you, or you've
Speaker 1: felt the motion from what there. I've spoken to Luis
Speaker 1: a Hope, an amazing woman, and what she endured I
Speaker 1: know when I was in the crime so it had
Speaker 1: some We went in straight after the incident had been
Speaker 1: resolved and there was just a neariness about the place
Speaker 1: and you could almost feel the fear in the in
Speaker 1: the room. What was it like sitting down with the
Speaker 1: hostages and speaking to them after they survived what they did?
Speaker 2: Oh awful? It was pretty raw. It was eight of
Speaker 2: them that I spoke to, and all of them individuals
Speaker 2: different how they reacted to this incredible scenario where they've
Speaker 2: been held hostage in a cafe in the CBD and
Speaker 2: you know, they're gone in there for their morning coffee
Speaker 2: and it doesn't end for another what sixteen hours or
Speaker 2: something late that night, and it doesn't end. Well, well,
Speaker 2: no it doesn't. Let's face it, No, ultimately it didn't.
Speaker 2: So they allowed me in. They let me come into
Speaker 2: that room, that cafe with them, which I thought was
Speaker 2: incredibly generous of them. They gave me permission to understand
Speaker 2: what it was like for them. And I think there
Speaker 2: were times when I just I could see inside that
Speaker 2: cafe when they were talking to me, and I did feel,
Speaker 2: oh God, what would I do? I don't know what
Speaker 2: I would do. And I felt terrible for those who
Speaker 2: ran and felt guilt. I felt terrible for those who
Speaker 2: were left behind and couldn't run. I felt you know,
Speaker 2: it was just it was an incredible moment in time
Speaker 2: where this story allowed me to understand what it must
Speaker 2: be like to as best I could, to what that
Speaker 2: situation must be like, you know, to be held against
Speaker 2: your will and basically been they were of the opinion
Speaker 2: this guy had a bomb. They were told that basically,
Speaker 2: and then and to know that he's not there to
Speaker 2: look after them. All their lives are on the line.
Speaker 2: And I was totally moved by them, totally, you know,
Speaker 2: those who were thinking about what to do, those who
Speaker 2: were just trying to stay calm, those who were you know,
Speaker 2: Louisa Hope's got a mum. Louisa's not able to run
Speaker 2: that easily if in the end, you know, mum couldn't run,
Speaker 2: so she had to decide not to run either. That's
Speaker 2: the first time in that kind of scenario I've been
Speaker 2: able to sit and listen to what that was like.
Speaker 2: And it did. It really took me into a moment
Speaker 2: in time which it stopped me and I thought, I
Speaker 2: actually don't know what I would have done. I really
Speaker 2: don't know what I would have done.
Speaker 1: Terrifying, isn't it? What they did.
Speaker 2: Feel their terror and I felt their their anguish. I
Speaker 2: felt at all. Actually I felt really moved by it.
Speaker 1: And You've got an understanding too that people that ran
Speaker 1: how they felt when someone died, of others that didn't run,
Speaker 1: so many decisions to make, and who knows how you
Speaker 1: would react in that situation.
Speaker 2: Do you know how you would react because you have
Speaker 2: some training and you have some know how. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: come from a place of I've had some hostile environment training.
Speaker 2: But you know, there's no way in the world I
Speaker 2: would have been sure of any decision I was going
Speaker 2: to make.
Speaker 1: No, there's things that I think in my mind and
Speaker 1: until you've actually confronted with them, what could be done
Speaker 1: or could couldn't be done. But yeah, I understood people
Speaker 1: like that with no training, just as you said, for
Speaker 1: a morning coffee. And I think that's what rocked everyone too.
Speaker 1: It could have been any one of us, and it
Speaker 1: literally was just you're in the wrong place at the
Speaker 1: wrong time, and you're caught up in that. You also
Speaker 1: spoke to the sniper police sniper, didn't you?
Speaker 2: I did. Davidson, Yes, and he was terribly affected. And
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that affected him from
Speaker 2: what I could gather is terribly nice guy. By the way,
Speaker 2: is he's watching it as a sniper and communications were difficult,
Speaker 2: is how I would say it. But he felt and
Speaker 2: he saw Tory executed. Tory Johnson, the cafe manager, was executed,
Speaker 2: and he saw that, and he felt as though he'd
Speaker 2: let him down. And I think that's the core of
Speaker 2: what gives him that terrible PTSD that they have, including
Speaker 2: the the and who went in, the head sniper entry team,
Speaker 2: all of that plays out in your head, and I guess,
Speaker 2: but I could see also from his perspective, and I
Speaker 2: heard all the other arguments of whether he could have
Speaker 2: really taken the shot, or whether it would have been accurate,
Speaker 2: or you know, he shouldn't have been allowed his mind
Speaker 2: to be worried about that. He did the best, he
Speaker 2: caught all that. But as a human being, he's there,
Speaker 2: he's he's in a position where he felt in his
Speaker 2: heart he could do this, and then he sees this
Speaker 2: terrible moment. I can understand. And yet he was highly trained.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, but he would have known with his training,
Speaker 1: and I can see the sense of responsibility with the
Speaker 1: felt and different things. But yeah, the entry team that
Speaker 1: went in too, like those guys, Yeah, they believed that
Speaker 1: he had a bomb too, but they still went in.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was it was awakening for the city
Speaker 1: in the regards think because it was so public. It
Speaker 1: was just everything about it that just sort of okay,
Speaker 1: this is the world's come to us now with that
Speaker 1: type of situation.
Speaker 2: It was a moment where I think Australia literally changed.
Speaker 2: It was like that kind of terrorism can happen here,
Speaker 2: and that was what I viewed as terrorism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've got to call it, call it
Speaker 1: for what it is. And I think there was lessons
Speaker 1: learned from the police of plast response and all that,
Speaker 1: which is, if anything comes from it, I hope there's
Speaker 1: some lessons lessons learned ful.
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's hard for everybody. It's really hard. I
Speaker 2: don't profess to have a high moral ground or view
Speaker 2: on any of that because I don't know except for
Speaker 2: what we're all told. And even then I still can't
Speaker 2: be sure other than to say what I am sure
Speaker 2: is that, yes, everybody is better in terms of knowing
Speaker 2: what should be done better.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it was a contained situation too, and
Speaker 1: you could imagine if it was a mobile situation how
Speaker 1: difficult that would be. But okay, where are we at now,
Speaker 1: klu Klux Klan. Come on, I've never got to speak
Speaker 1: to someone that's in the klu Klux Klan, but I'm
Speaker 1: getting to speak to someone that's spoken to someone that's
Speaker 1: in the klu Klux Klan.
Speaker 2: That was a very weird business. I have to say.
Speaker 2: We were going to speak to the ku Klux Klan,
Speaker 2: which is even hard to say, because the clan was
Speaker 2: of the opinion that Donald Trump was giving them a
Speaker 2: wink and a nod, that what they believed was what
Speaker 2: he might have believed, because he wouldn't come out and
Speaker 2: you know and say that they were a racist, irresponsible
Speaker 2: group of haters. But they were of the opinion that,
Speaker 2: so you know, he was on their side. So off
Speaker 2: we went, and we went to this particular place which
Speaker 2: was a clan country and the clan family. They had
Speaker 2: this massive property where they had, you know, a conference
Speaker 2: center and a bit of schooling and all on, yes
Speaker 2: and where you can come and learn a whole lot more.
Speaker 2: That had a servenir shop.
Speaker 1: I'd have to visit there.
Speaker 2: I don't think. I didn't see any pillow cases or
Speaker 2: anything like that, but they had anyway, they and they
Speaker 2: had a television studio and they broadcast twice a day,
Speaker 2: and that had big billboards on the side of the road.
Speaker 2: And look, what can I say, It's not my world
Speaker 2: by long shot, and trying to get.
Speaker 1: Into it to clarify that, but.
Speaker 2: Trying to get into their heads about why you feel this,
Speaker 2: Why are you so threatened by people who aren't white?
Speaker 2: What is the problem here? What, what's what's going on?
Speaker 2: And there's no good answer to that.
Speaker 1: Did you get a sense of who they were, like,
Speaker 1: were coming from?
Speaker 2: They were generation of people they come from usually well
Speaker 2: a long line of you know clans. Yeah, true, but
Speaker 2: it was you can't. It's like, you know, it's a
Speaker 2: circular conversation and you just will never nail them ever.
Speaker 1: Now down there was they would justify their positions. They
Speaker 1: could in their minds.
Speaker 2: But like a lot of cults and people in these
Speaker 2: kind of groups are quite seasoned answer not answering questions.
Speaker 2: They're slippery, you know, they don't they they want you
Speaker 2: to believe that they're not haters at all. You know,
Speaker 2: they just feel like the white person who is now
Speaker 2: getting a bad deal and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: Their history tells a whole other thing. But I think
Speaker 2: we're true. Are you getting to the muffins?
Speaker 1: Let's do the muffins?
Speaker 2: Well, Ben, who happens to be now my partner, who
Speaker 2: was the sun man. I don't know whether the sound
Speaker 2: records is probably what I should say. He's raised with.
Speaker 2: We can't go into people's homes without having something. You
Speaker 2: must always bring something like a plate. You know, you
Speaker 2: must bring a case.
Speaker 1: This is your country upbringing.
Speaker 2: It is, it is, it is. And we're all like, okay,
Speaker 2: So we pulled over like we're going to spend the
Speaker 2: whole day with them, and you know, in some respects
Speaker 2: we have to be respectful, so we will do that.
Speaker 2: And wow, we turned up with a dozen muffins and
Speaker 2: way out because it all ended badly, because it was
Speaker 2: always in badly.
Speaker 1: They couldn't find that common GRAMD.
Speaker 2: They just they just when you just can't say that
Speaker 2: anything they're saying is truthful, they do want you to go.
Speaker 2: But there they were, the muffins to be eaten. And
Speaker 2: I did say that even they whilst they had a
Speaker 2: mouthful of muffins, couldn't tell us to bugger off, because
Speaker 2: really we brought them up.
Speaker 1: For the good tactic.
Speaker 2: If we want anything, always like in the matters department.
Speaker 2: But yes, no, most it is the most peculiar business.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I just I'm fascinated that you get to
Speaker 1: speak to these people. We see them, we hear about them,
Speaker 1: But there's people out there.
Speaker 2: Like you've spoken to cult leaders.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, any cult if you you have people that
Speaker 1: are vulnerable, because I think a lot of people that
Speaker 1: go in the cults are looking for something in life,
Speaker 1: and then it's easy to manipulate. It's psychology one oh
Speaker 1: one too. Oh your part will look after you and yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's part of part.
Speaker 2: Of what for them. Mind you, the Klan is long established. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so you know they've been around forever and you know
Speaker 2: what you're getting into it.
Speaker 1: Well, look, we talk about your values that you grew
Speaker 1: up with because of your family and your parents. Imagine
Speaker 1: if you've grown up and say everyone in town you
Speaker 1: don't trust them, and that that type of stuff.
Speaker 2: So I yes, I think it's really hard to people
Speaker 2: step outside their families and defy their families. I think
Speaker 2: that's a really hard thing to do. And if you're
Speaker 2: in the Klan, I would have thought it'd be particularly
Speaker 2: hard because their finances and everything are locked in. So
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think it's it.
Speaker 1: I think it's important to at least go in there
Speaker 1: and put the spotlight so we get a sense.
Speaker 2: Of I was fascinated to meet plans, you know, I
Speaker 2: was fascinated to kind of get a bead on them
Speaker 2: a bit, you know, and the respectable face that they
Speaker 2: tried to put forward, you know, and you know, it's
Speaker 2: it was a business as well.
Speaker 1: You also hung out with some gangsters in Chicago. What's
Speaker 1: your mate's name side CTC do pop or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Chicago gangster he's a serious story. I
Speaker 2: mean at the South Side they been there were particular,
Speaker 2: so many young black youths were dying, and innocent people like,
Speaker 2: you know, people mothers and their children were dying in
Speaker 2: their houses because the bullets were coming in they were
Speaker 2: sleeping and shot on their bed basically because of this
Speaker 2: unruly gang shooting. Hey, we're seeing a bit of it ourselves.
Speaker 2: But there's you know, innocent people getting.
Speaker 1: Caught in steroids over there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so we went over there and our connection
Speaker 2: was but he came from Chicago and he but he
Speaker 2: was he actually now lived in California. So we had
Speaker 2: to wait for him to fly and he was running
Speaker 2: late because he had to pick up a gun. And
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, all right, and we
Speaker 2: were going out with him to meet some some of
Speaker 2: the gangs. And no, it was palpable. You you got
Speaker 2: a very clear sense that it was a fairly injurious
Speaker 2: thing just to drive in the streets, and it was
Speaker 2: an education. You know. We spoke to the funeral director
Speaker 2: there now, who was an extraordinary man, but he said
Speaker 2: that young people were coming in to decide which casket
Speaker 2: they were going to get at the age of like thirteen,
Speaker 2: because he said they were of the opinion they were
Speaker 2: going to make thirty five, and he said quite often
Speaker 2: they didn't. But his point was, and a lot of
Speaker 2: people's argument was that if these were white people kids
Speaker 2: killing white kids, maybe something might have been done about this.
Speaker 2: But because in other words, racism might have been playing
Speaker 2: a role in why that wasn't being sorted. But I
Speaker 2: got to say, I got to say that as a
Speaker 2: white woman on the street, you know, chatting up a
Speaker 2: couple of gang bloody members, oh, I didn't think, okay,
Speaker 2: well this is this is my job. But it was
Speaker 2: bizarre and it was dangerous. It just felt dangerous.
Speaker 1: You just knew, you got the sense of it. Well,
Speaker 1: I think like the figures that every three hours someone
Speaker 1: was shot and every four hours someone was murdered in that.
Speaker 2: Part, they were their statistics and even the police were
Speaker 2: getting out. They even they believed it.
Speaker 1: Was two days.
Speaker 2: It's out of control.
Speaker 1: Problematic that can just in the country and it's not resolved.
Speaker 1: We'll bring it back to our country. And I get
Speaker 1: your take on speaking to cyrial killer Bill McDonald and
Speaker 1: Leonard Lawson who was a murderer and rapist.
Speaker 2: So these guys were serial killers. I didn't know much
Speaker 2: about them, to be honest, but.
Speaker 1: Well, we haven't heard a lot about them because their
Speaker 1: crimes were from when was it in the sixties. McDonald
Speaker 1: became known as a mutilator, stabbing five Mile victims to
Speaker 1: death and removing their genitals, terrorizing Sydney in the early sixties.
Speaker 1: And then you've got laws who raped three women in
Speaker 1: the fifties and seven years later, after being released from prison,
Speaker 1: murdered a young girl and took a hole full of
Speaker 1: Sydney students hostage before shooting the fifteen year old pupil.
Speaker 2: I bet a lot of people don't even know about that.
Speaker 1: I did, ye, Yeah, I've heard them only because of
Speaker 1: the work I've done, But yeah, these people are people
Speaker 1: are out there. Tell us what do you sit down
Speaker 1: with them?
Speaker 2: It was like, well, Lawson was in Grafton Jail and
Speaker 2: McDonald was in Long Bay, I think, and so they
Speaker 2: both agreed for us to come and chat to the man.
Speaker 2: I guess it was because they are nearing the end
Speaker 2: of their life. I thought it would be fascinating to
Speaker 2: understand what makes the serial killer tick. But of course
Speaker 2: the serial killer is not going to say, look, Liz,
Speaker 2: although explain a little. Although I have to say McDonald
Speaker 2: did say he was a monster. Donald McDonald didn't hesitate
Speaker 2: in saying he couldn't stop himself. He just, you know,
Speaker 2: just his backstory might have given you a hint of problems.
Speaker 2: He couldn't keep a job, he didn't know where his
Speaker 2: next meal was coming from. You know, sometimes be quite homeless.
Speaker 2: But you might be able to argue he had a
Speaker 2: mental illness. And the style of crime was, you know,
Speaker 2: removing male general tools is pretty out there. And I
Speaker 2: guess if you got him to really talk, maybe you'll
Speaker 2: find a reason for that.
Speaker 1: What the history of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he just looked like a bloke who was ready
Speaker 2: to just die in jail, and he was quite happy
Speaker 2: about that. He didn't mind being in jail. I felt
Speaker 2: he felt comfortable in jail because a was being fed
Speaker 2: and b he knew that he would just probably kill
Speaker 2: some more.
Speaker 1: Well, they're the type of people that society, society needs
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 2: Protected from totally.
Speaker 1: And did you find and I found this one? Seeing
Speaker 1: opposite notorious killers sometimes there what's the word, I'm looking
Speaker 1: for normalness? Anybody else not stamped with I'm a serial killer?
Speaker 1: And that's that's a chilling part about it, Like people
Speaker 1: want to see the monster and sometimes they're not the monster.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember when I was at Grafton, No it
Speaker 2: was it Kemst Grafton and Leonard Lawson was brought in
Speaker 2: and I'd already been told, you know, not to sit
Speaker 2: too close to him and all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 2: so I'm like sitting back. But an actual fact, I
Speaker 2: was not at risk at all. You know, this was
Speaker 2: a bloke who his personality was one that wanted me
Speaker 2: to believe he was incredibly sorry for what he had
Speaker 2: done and he wanted to be forgiven and he'd been
Speaker 2: married with three kids and just couldn't understand what had
Speaker 2: happened that he'd done this, but he kept doing it
Speaker 2: and he and he's the one to have a key
Speaker 2: to his own cell.
Speaker 1: Because he didn't trust people because a lot.
Speaker 2: Of thieves and he lives and he was an artist
Speaker 2: and he was so took me into his cell to
Speaker 2: show me, you know, his paintings and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: What am I doing in here? But look, in terms
Speaker 2: of being a seemingly an ordinary bloke, yes, there we are,
Speaker 2: you know, this old fellow. And he looking and he said,
Speaker 2: if it helps you know, I spent twenty odd years
Speaker 2: and I never saw the sun and the moon. I
Speaker 2: never had grass under my feet, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: So you know, I want you to know I have
Speaker 2: felt punished, but it's all small potatoes for victims and
Speaker 2: their families or you know. So, but I did. I
Speaker 2: did find it fascinating, I must say, to just look
Speaker 2: at these people and figure out, Okay, you're one of
Speaker 2: those people that I could never be sure about this
Speaker 2: in the street, and I wouldn't have picked you.
Speaker 1: That's I think that's the thing that I get from
Speaker 1: them quite often. You can't can't pick it. But I
Speaker 1: also if I I'm not sure how long you've spent
Speaker 1: with them, but if you spend enough time, I walk
Speaker 1: out of the those type of situations and feel dirty
Speaker 1: like you just yeah, it's just you want to just
Speaker 1: sort of wash yourself away from it.
Speaker 2: Look, I didn't necessarily feel that, but I do. I
Speaker 2: did feel as though, well McDonald didn't try and change
Speaker 2: my views or anything like that, but just being in
Speaker 2: his presence it does strangely make you feel like this
Speaker 2: has not been a great part of society. I've been
Speaker 2: mixing with and Lawson. Of course, I just thought he
Speaker 2: was a con man. He was just trying his hardest
Speaker 2: to look put on a good face.
Speaker 1: Now, speaking of bad people, dully done. The pedophile, Yes,
Speaker 1: now this is one that you should be very proud
Speaker 1: of finding playing the part and find finding him. Do
Speaker 1: you want to tell us a story about that? Because
Speaker 1: he was the Australia's most wanted pedophile.
Speaker 2: He was at the time, and he had fled the
Speaker 2: country with the full knowledge that he was wanted. And
Speaker 2: we got a tip off that he was in Honduras
Speaker 2: and that his passport was up for renewal. So therefore
Speaker 2: we knew we probably wouldn't he wasn't going to go
Speaker 2: to this Straandon embassy to get it renewed, we didn't think,
Speaker 2: so we had the were of the opinion he's probably
Speaker 2: not going to go anywhere. He'll probably stay there. Now
Speaker 2: you might find this slightly historical, but the police apparently
Speaker 2: didn't have the resources to go, and.
Speaker 1: Lise, I will not have you criticized police on my
Speaker 1: catch killers. And that's really and.
Speaker 2: No because and I get it, but you know, sixty
Speaker 2: minutes had the resources. And we put a woman on
Speaker 2: the ground who a producer and she could speak Spanish
Speaker 2: and she Portuguese whatever the language is. But she got
Speaker 2: on the ground and just went village by village, bus
Speaker 2: by bus and tracked him down. And then we had
Speaker 2: to to get her to film him, so she had
Speaker 2: to have someone help her lure him into a meeting
Speaker 2: where she could film him without him knowing. Then we
Speaker 2: had to send that film back to the police here
Speaker 2: to say that's him, this is him, no doubt. And
Speaker 2: it was like, yes, that's him, Okay, well we'll go
Speaker 2: and get him. Who wants to come, But the AFP,
Speaker 2: I think the New Southwest Police, but the DEA, the
Speaker 2: Department of the Drug Enforcement Agency from America had to
Speaker 2: come because to get him out of Honduras into America
Speaker 2: where he could be extradited was their role. So we
Speaker 2: get over there and of course all these people waiting
Speaker 2: for us to bring him in, which we did. So
Speaker 2: we brought him. We lured him in ya someone who
Speaker 2: was offering him a business opportunity to a hotel. And
Speaker 2: it was so funny because we all gathered the cops
Speaker 2: and are still gathered in a room beforehand and discussed
Speaker 2: how we're going to do this and what we wanted
Speaker 2: to achieve, and and an agreement with them that you know,
Speaker 2: we could given we found the bloke, can we film him?
Speaker 2: Is that all right? And and but we had to
Speaker 2: be cognizant of the law, and they have a job
Speaker 2: and the whole point is to get him. So we
Speaker 2: can't let this bloke obviously slip through our things and
Speaker 2: they miss him. That would be a travesty. So we
Speaker 2: did all that. We had the conversation and then the
Speaker 2: agreed line from me because somebody had your pieces in it.
Speaker 2: How long are you going to keep running for mister Dunn,
Speaker 2: which meant he's about to go and put his hand
Speaker 2: on the doorknob and leave the room the hotel room.
Speaker 1: That was okay, that's it.
Speaker 2: And so but I was saying, how was that Dolly
Speaker 2: Dunn's been lured up to this? Hotel room and the
Speaker 2: person gets a call. We organized call for him to
Speaker 2: say get out, and he goes, oh, I've just got
Speaker 2: to pop down on the lobby quickly he goes, he
Speaker 2: leaves the room, and Dolly goes okay. And Dolly's got
Speaker 2: a scotch and he's on the lounge and he's got
Speaker 2: a cigarette and he goes, okay, yeah, and he's looking
Speaker 2: around because we've got cameras in the room we can
Speaker 2: watch him and so. And then we've got a connecting room.
Speaker 2: So we come through the connecting room door. And I
Speaker 2: can't imagine, but Doty's done, must have thought. But he
Speaker 2: was pretty on it, you know. I could see he
Speaker 2: was I was more nervous than him, you know. And
Speaker 2: you could see he was switching. He was like trying
Speaker 2: to work out, Okay, how am I going to get
Speaker 2: out of here? So he was headed trying to head
Speaker 2: for the door, and I can't stop him, of course,
Speaker 2: But it was a bizarre scenario.
Speaker 1: For him and the crime. He was a teacher, maris.
Speaker 2: Brothers, he was, yes, and he is his school boys.
Speaker 2: He was filming young men, young boys and all that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And the evidence was all there, but
Speaker 2: it was well, I just said, it was a strange
Speaker 2: business going out and getting this this guy this big.
Speaker 1: Well when because he was he was on the run.
Speaker 1: I think it all blew up in the police Royal
Speaker 1: commissioned where it came out and yeah, but that was
Speaker 1: that was a good get So I like that. I
Speaker 1: like those stories. That's where about that. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: where the media are doing well.
Speaker 2: Well, it is where media can do well, and it
Speaker 2: was It doesn't happen like that very often, but it
Speaker 2: was a great cooperation as well. We weren't blocked. I
Speaker 2: think it was accepted that might as well use sixty
Speaker 2: minutes resources if that's the way it's going.
Speaker 1: To I've always and I do understand you're going to
Speaker 1: protect the integrity of investigations and all that, but there's
Speaker 1: so many opportunities where the media can help. And I
Speaker 1: think the police are slowly coming round to the fact that, yeah,
Speaker 1: like we've podcast teachers, pat that type of thing. They've
Speaker 1: got to open the doors up that. Yeah, if we're
Speaker 1: trying to solve something, we got to rely on the community,
Speaker 1: and the community might be in your case, it was
Speaker 1: the media.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think look, we all have to be
Speaker 2: cognizant of the law, and we do. You know, if
Speaker 2: we're really about getting you know, the bad guy or
Speaker 2: woman out, then we do have to let the police
Speaker 2: you take control. But in this scenario, I guess it's
Speaker 2: because we invested heavily. We put someone on the ground
Speaker 2: for a month, we tracked them down, we did the
Speaker 2: whole thing, and then we said to the police, you know,
Speaker 2: we're o and they were very they were very understanding there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that worked out. Well. You also went into Camp X, right, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: David Hicks's help y obey.
Speaker 2: This is this little slash of paradise in Cuba was
Speaker 2: the Americans run and it you know, you land there
Speaker 2: and it's it's totally control by you know, authorities. But
Speaker 2: you go into town and it's all it's a little America,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's you can get your hamburgers and
Speaker 2: pizzas and beers and everything like that. But then you
Speaker 2: just up the road is this horrific place.
Speaker 1: Just describe it.
Speaker 2: Well, the first incarnation of Camp X was we drove
Speaker 2: around and they had a lot of because it came
Speaker 2: out of really nine to eleven happening and they were
Speaker 2: bringing what they perceived as terrorists from all over the world. Really, yeah,
Speaker 2: And David Hicks got caught up. He was in Afghanistan
Speaker 2: and he's an Australian who you know. I think he
Speaker 2: said he was troubled or always trying to find himself,
Speaker 2: I think really to be fair to him, and found
Speaker 2: himself in this situation. But he when I when I
Speaker 2: went there, it was it just looks like it was
Speaker 2: all barbed wired and netted off. But you look in
Speaker 2: and just lots of orange jumpsuits, goggles quite often, you know,
Speaker 2: chains and whatever out in the open. Really a bit
Speaker 2: of a tin shed occasionally for some shelter. It was.
Speaker 2: It was pretty confronting. It was a pretty rough place.
Speaker 2: There was no there was not going to be. As
Speaker 2: they said to me, there are no medium security terrorists,
Speaker 2: so there will be There will be no medium security here.
Speaker 2: And I think America in particular was angry. They were
Speaker 2: not in the.
Speaker 1: Mood to be no half measures.
Speaker 2: It was people would argue, not even the mood to
Speaker 2: be humane. So it was pretty out there. So the
Speaker 2: next time we went, I went one time. Next time
Speaker 2: they'd improved facilities because the world was starting to come
Speaker 2: down on them because not everybody was guilty, it turns out.
Speaker 1: And that blew up. There was stuff that was was
Speaker 1: uncovered the way the guards were treating some of the prisoners.
Speaker 2: But you can be held and it still can be
Speaker 2: held there without charge forever. That's well, that's the argument
Speaker 2: for the rest of the world. And we get we
Speaker 2: get that. You know, you don't much like these people,
Speaker 2: but you have to have evidence to hold people. And anyway,
Speaker 2: as we know, David Hicks came home. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: this was this was a place where there was no forgiveness.
Speaker 2: There will be no forgiveness in this joint. This was tough.
Speaker 2: This was hard. This was to show the world, no,
Speaker 2: we don't put up with.
Speaker 1: Any of that. How we're going to react. Did you
Speaker 1: did you report on nine eleven or in any capacity?
Speaker 2: I wasn't. I didn't get across there. I came over
Speaker 2: later because some Australians were caught in the Twin Towers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and interviewed some of the people or a particular person
Speaker 2: who had to run for their lives down that I
Speaker 2: think I'm not sure which tar, but it's you know,
Speaker 2: that was something wasn't that was. I actually was in
Speaker 2: a hotel in my bed in Melbourne and had the
Speaker 2: news on and I thought, what's what's that? But when
Speaker 2: I saw the second jet go into the Second Tower
Speaker 2: without change, the world didn't. Yeah, that was that was
Speaker 2: I think we all felt unsettled by that. You know,
Speaker 2: it was suddenly like, oh, if that could happened in America,
Speaker 2: And of course we did see some you know, ripple
Speaker 2: effects of that.
Speaker 1: What about you spent time in Afghanistan. What's it like
Speaker 1: for you going into it like a war zone?
Speaker 2: Well, the first time it was the Taliban was fighting
Speaker 2: the Northern Alliance as it was called, so we'd gone
Speaker 2: in there to see it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 2: bizarre business because Afghanistan is very beautiful, you know, the
Speaker 2: Hindu Kush, the mountains, everything is quite wonderful, and yet
Speaker 2: there it always felt like it was could erupt at
Speaker 2: any time. They didn't much like women, but they hate
Speaker 2: them a whole lot more now, but you know, they
Speaker 2: tolerated me. We were constantly trying to find the front line,
Speaker 2: which was you know, well where is this war? And
Speaker 2: we'd hooked up with this warlord who had been well
Speaker 2: educated in America in the UK, and you know, his
Speaker 2: father had handed down, you know, the Warlord title. He'd
Speaker 2: built this big pink eagle up on a mountain which
Speaker 2: you could call you crawl up into and sit on
Speaker 2: his rugs and drink. I'm not sure if it was tea.
Speaker 2: It's a very you know, there's a lot of hypocrisy.
Speaker 1: I think, how did you find yourself like from a
Speaker 1: personal point of view, being in those environments? So were
Speaker 1: you worried that the whole time?
Speaker 2: Or did you I was the first time around. I
Speaker 2: was particularly naive. So we're walking too, we're walking to
Speaker 2: watch and we were told we'd be you know, we
Speaker 2: finally found the line. But we're walking to a place
Speaker 2: down towards this bridge, and we were told, you know, okay,
Speaker 2: this is where we might be able to get some shots.
Speaker 2: Walking with some soldiers down there, and then suddenly there's
Speaker 2: this gunfire going off and everybody hits the deck except
Speaker 2: I go, what was that which was appalling? In grand
Speaker 2: high sight? Glorius hussit hindsight, you know, And Ben, who
Speaker 2: was now my partner, he was this hand pulled me
Speaker 2: into the ditch and said get down like you dummy.
Speaker 2: And then of course suddenly I became very aware oh yeah.
Speaker 2: Suddenly I became very weare they shooting get us? Because
Speaker 2: we were told that the tripod we had looked a
Speaker 2: bit like a rock a pearl pro pearl grenade, you know,
Speaker 2: So it was.
Speaker 1: Like, did you give the tripod to Ben to carry?
Speaker 2: You're here?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Well, Vera was trying to do a piece camera and
Speaker 2: I noticed all our soldiers and including Ben others, all
Speaker 2: hiding behind running and hiding behind wall that I was
Speaker 2: not behind. So I learn pretty quickly ignorance can Oh
Speaker 2: it saved me. It saved me totally, because I'm not
Speaker 2: even sure I would have gotten out of the car.
Speaker 1: But like just so so many experiences like and on
Speaker 1: an aircraft carry of the use aircraft carry five five
Speaker 1: hundred people on the ship. What was that like?
Speaker 2: Oh quite something. We're just getting on is quite the trick.
Speaker 2: So you get on this sea too or whatever. It's
Speaker 2: a it's an aircraft that lands on the deck that
Speaker 2: brings you in. But they tell you and you've got
Speaker 2: to be aware of it that we are. It's it's
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a crash landing. So you come
Speaker 2: in and but we we rev up as we come
Speaker 2: down because if we miss the toe rap it's supposed
Speaker 2: to collect us. We've got to be able to take
Speaker 2: off and go over the edge and get airborne, so
Speaker 2: we can't afford to pull the engines down. We're actually
Speaker 2: going to be going harder faster as we're coming in.
Speaker 2: And that, to me, it was like, you are kidding me,
Speaker 2: and you know how you're ready for that crash? Oh
Speaker 2: and I did that twice. I did it on a
Speaker 2: couple of aircraft carriers and to me was like, what
Speaker 2: am I doing? But anyway, Yes, a floating city. That
Speaker 2: is exactly what they are. It's amazing. And all those
Speaker 2: fighter jets, you know, as they've all been sent off,
Speaker 2: it is you are. That is a battle zone right
Speaker 2: there in the sea.
Speaker 1: Just a floating war machine.
Speaker 2: It is. It is. It's very testosterone. It's a very
Speaker 2: you know, I figure I'm a very much a woman
Speaker 2: because I'm like, actually, that's not fair to the women
Speaker 2: of the world, because let's just talking about me. I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh god, what was that.
Speaker 1: That's a noisy plane? Wake you up in the morning.
Speaker 2: You never slept. Let me put it that way, because
Speaker 2: they're they're also landing on your head underneath a great
Speaker 2: force and they have to land the same way I
Speaker 2: did coming in hot.
Speaker 1: I haven't even covered the celebrity, so that's because you've
Speaker 1: said you don't like gossips. At the start, give us
Speaker 1: a celebrity story. What was your will simplify it? What
Speaker 1: was the celebrity you enjoyed most talking to.
Speaker 2: Okay, I look for a couple and everybody will go.
Speaker 2: Of course, George Clooney always was professional. He'd turn up
Speaker 2: and he'd be very professional. But Dustin Hoffman was a
Speaker 2: whole new ball game. He wouldn't go, just like he
Speaker 2: was just having a fabulous time. And when his publicist said, look,
Speaker 2: we probably should leave here, when you go, I'm fine.
Speaker 2: And then at the end he asked for the whole
Speaker 2: interview to be sent to him. He enjoyed it so much.
Speaker 2: So he was old school. You know, they turn up
Speaker 2: and they know why they're there, and they just if
Speaker 2: they're in the mood. Admittedly, but he was great. And
Speaker 2: probably she's coming to town, so it's a terrible story
Speaker 2: to tell. But Mariah Carey, honest God, she kept us
Speaker 2: waiting like eight hours. That's the question is why did
Speaker 2: we wait well? Because we were constantly being told she's
Speaker 2: just in the next room, and she's just you know,
Speaker 2: she'll be in a minute.
Speaker 1: So just strung an in.
Speaker 2: A minute, and it went on. I left my hotel
Speaker 2: room at like five in the afternoon, and when I
Speaker 2: walked in, it was like four in the morning, and
Speaker 2: I was setting up getting ready for breakfast, and I thought,
Speaker 2: I just I just don't even know why, you know,
Speaker 2: how the life goes out of you. She's arrived and
Speaker 2: it's like, how did even get one of my finners?
Speaker 2: Not one of my farmers? Hi? Hi? Just she looked
Speaker 2: a million dollars and she tried really hard, but I
Speaker 2: just just we could.
Speaker 1: All look at me, okay to get ready.
Speaker 2: Well, she was doing other things, but I just truly
Speaker 2: it was, Yeah.
Speaker 1: You've said you don't enjoy.
Speaker 2: It's, oh, well, I think it's because of the machinery
Speaker 2: around it.
Speaker 1: It's just not the celebrity, it's all the people are
Speaker 1: around them.
Speaker 2: It's the whole you know, doing and throwing an agreement
Speaker 2: and you know everybody's watching and making sure. It's just
Speaker 2: there's I think I call it po lava, and that's
Speaker 2: exactly what it is. There's so much polava, and in
Speaker 2: the end, you just really want to sit down. We
Speaker 2: all know why we're here. You're going to flog on
Speaker 2: film or something, and I'm going to be grateful that
Speaker 2: you want to talk to me, and we'll discuss a
Speaker 2: whole lot of things that you might be okay with.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to embarrass you. I'm not. I'm here
Speaker 2: to make a great story. That's all I'm here to do,
Speaker 2: and it will help sell what you've got. It seems
Speaker 2: like so much hard work, and I don't And in
Speaker 2: the end, you always feel like they arrive hating you
Speaker 2: and they leave hating you, and.
Speaker 1: When they're not genuine, I'm sure it comes across and
Speaker 1: they've just got the lip service and this is what.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, and I'm it's a big brush stroke I'm making.
Speaker 2: I know because there are some very good exceptions. But
Speaker 2: by and large, for me, these are color stories, ultimately
Speaker 2: and nice and I think we need them.
Speaker 1: Not your favorite, not for me. One of the one
Speaker 1: of the stories you didn't we mentioned that before, but
Speaker 1: was going from celebrities to a very personal thing. But
Speaker 1: the death of your father. Do you want to just
Speaker 1: tell us about that and why you did a story
Speaker 1: about that, and why you considered the hardest story that
Speaker 1: you've done, and possibly one of the most important stories.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, my dad, who was my rock, really country
Speaker 2: town man, genuine, trusting, caring, thoughtful bloke, dairy farmer. He
Speaker 2: got what was pneumonia and ultimately went to hospital via
Speaker 2: an ambulance and went into the local public hospital, was
Speaker 2: treated and got through that, although there were some mistakes
Speaker 2: while he was in there as well, like you know,
Speaker 2: but forgivable because he didn't die. But then they moved
Speaker 2: him to the private hospital to recuperate, and then that
Speaker 2: is where he didn't receive his medication. He's only stroke
Speaker 2: medication for the entire eight days that he was there,
Speaker 2: because it wasn't written down. And then Dad had a
Speaker 2: major stroke, and I just I just I just couldn't
Speaker 2: believe that something so basic could occur. I just I
Speaker 2: just felt, wow, you know, he'd recovered, he was doing well,
Speaker 2: he was under their observation all that, and you didn't
Speaker 2: give him his anti stroke medication. That's pretty basic anyway.
Speaker 2: As a result of that, as a result of that,
Speaker 2: I was pretty devastated by this fundamental error. There's this
Speaker 2: fundament But of course I was to learn that there
Speaker 2: were men any fundamental errors that were occurring, and before
Speaker 2: I knew it, Dad was still dying. When people were nurses, doctors,
Speaker 2: other patients were telling me their own terrible stories. Dad
Speaker 2: hadn't even died when we were getting I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: you know your dad's here, and because they all knew
Speaker 2: what had happened country town, so Dad did die. And
Speaker 2: it was after that that I thought, really, why has
Speaker 2: this occurred? Because there are really good people in those hospitals.
Speaker 2: There are really good people trying very hard. You know,
Speaker 2: nobody wakes up to go and do something terrible. I
Speaker 2: get that, but I realized that the rural system was
Speaker 2: broken beyond belief. But then I realized it'd been broken
Speaker 2: for a long time. I'm just at the end of
Speaker 2: a queue of terribleness. So I decided I should tell
Speaker 2: the story, and I I did think about it, but
Speaker 2: I thought, I ask other people to do this, so
Speaker 2: I will tell my dad's story. I think it could
Speaker 2: have been prevented. That's why I think Dad didn't have
Speaker 2: to die that day. Yeah, So I told this story,
Speaker 2: and of course got lots of other people with their
Speaker 2: terrible stories as well. You know, ultimately, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to compare terribleness, but I did think. I thank god
Speaker 2: Dad was eighty eight and had some life, I guess,
Speaker 2: but still, you know, my horror was it wasn't taken away.
Speaker 2: So I told the story. The new South Wales Parliament
Speaker 2: set up an inquiry into rural health and declared what
Speaker 2: we all knew was appalling. Everything's terrible, you name it,
Speaker 2: it's all terrible. Well it's still going on today. It's
Speaker 2: still going on today. There were forty four recommendations of
Speaker 2: change and the Government of today was behind all those changes,
Speaker 2: said that was all happening. But really the rural health,
Speaker 2: if it is a truth, if you live in a
Speaker 2: country town, and particularly out west I mean at least
Speaker 2: on the coast, people there are doctors who were happy
Speaker 2: to go and because people like the beach or whatever,
Speaker 2: but you cannot get staff. I then did stories out
Speaker 2: Western it is that's almost a crime scene because of
Speaker 2: the lack of staff, the way in which a meager
Speaker 2: amount of people are expected to do, you know, an
Speaker 2: enormous job. They're bringing in cleaners and gardeners to sit
Speaker 2: with patients while they run to answer the phone or
Speaker 2: to deal with somebody. Gary Jubil is just come in
Speaker 2: because his seventy's finger or something.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just just is.
Speaker 2: A cycle of horror. And I don't know how. To me,
Speaker 2: there seems to be an outrageous amount of money that's
Speaker 2: already there. It's how it's being spent, is my very
Speaker 2: humble view. And I wonder, I wonder how this can
Speaker 2: keep going.
Speaker 1: Well, it's good that you put the spotlight on it
Speaker 1: and highlight, but yeah, quite often I see where there's
Speaker 1: situations that are bad. Light that you get the initial
Speaker 1: response from the politicians and you get the recommendations, but
Speaker 1: it's about implementing the recommendations in a timely manner.
Speaker 2: Well, and that it is such a big issue, and
Speaker 2: you know it is. It's Australia wide. You know, there's
Speaker 2: something like seven million Australians who live in the country
Speaker 2: who require some sort of health and if they're not
Speaker 2: expecting to have a heart transplant up the road, they're
Speaker 2: just expecting that somebody might be able to a there
Speaker 2: will be a doctor, be somebody might be able to
Speaker 2: give them immediate treatment and see get them to you know,
Speaker 2: somewhere else to get them the major treatment if it
Speaker 2: is required. They're not expecting the world. They're just expecting something,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's just I'm shocked, constantly shocked. It's
Speaker 2: still going on. I know that. I think the news
Speaker 2: corps and the Daily Telegraph have been absolutely on it
Speaker 2: as well of recent times. And thank god, because I
Speaker 2: think that is what the media is.
Speaker 1: That is that is a role, a worthwhile role of
Speaker 1: the media to put the spotlight on things like that.
Speaker 2: We all pay taxes, and the people in the country
Speaker 2: paid taxes just like the rest of us. And when
Speaker 2: you've got paramedics having to make a priority about I
Speaker 2: don't know which one I can go to.
Speaker 1: Well, we do it. We all, we all pay those
Speaker 1: taxes and health services. It should be the measure of
Speaker 1: society and that it shouldn't discriminate because people are in
Speaker 1: remote locations and as you said, you're not expecting the
Speaker 1: heart transpan out west they come to the city. But
Speaker 1: the basic stuff.
Speaker 2: Just basic stuff, It would be good and people.
Speaker 1: It becomes problematic because if people are under stress and
Speaker 1: they over work constantly, they're going to make mistakes and
Speaker 1: they'll probably more than likely leave the profession.
Speaker 2: So they're just That's why I'm saying, you know, in
Speaker 2: my dad's situation. That's a mistake, that's not a willful action. Well,
Speaker 2: I didn't see it. I thought it was a bit
Speaker 2: of an unforgivable mistake in many respects, but it was
Speaker 2: a mistake. Nobody intends to cause harm in that profession.
Speaker 2: But it's just it was a symptom of that which
Speaker 2: is failing so many of us. And you know, if
Speaker 2: you're in the country driving out to have a nice time,
Speaker 2: you know, out on a farm somewhere or the vineyards
Speaker 2: or whatever, and you have the misfortune of having something
Speaker 2: go wrong, well you might be introduced to the country
Speaker 2: town hospital that doesn't actually have a dog.
Speaker 1: Happens to our city facts.
Speaker 2: You venture out beyond the Blue mountains and I worry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's something that's yeah, it does need to
Speaker 1: be fixed. So the more people talk about it, the
Speaker 1: more people push. But it's not about yeah, we've had
Speaker 1: an inquiry and then recommendations unless they get implemented. And
Speaker 1: I've seen that too many times with parliamentary inquiries.
Speaker 2: I can't understand why politics gets so in the way
Speaker 2: of this stuff. I mean, of course politics runs our lives,
Speaker 2: I know, but you know, it's just a hard and
Speaker 2: fast fact that you know something needs to be done,
Speaker 2: so let's do it.
Speaker 1: Is I just said if I can't have too ill
Speaker 1: informed to have a political conversation. But I can't help
Speaker 1: but think a lot of politicians are in there just
Speaker 1: to feather their own nest and how they get re
Speaker 1: elected the next time. And that shouldn't be what politics
Speaker 1: is about. Politics should be doing the right thing. You're
Speaker 1: representing the community.
Speaker 2: Well, look at what I do know is that votes count.
Speaker 2: If you're not getting much joy from your local member,
Speaker 2: change your vote.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a way of mate, mate.
Speaker 2: But I think it's pretty hard for people to change votes.
Speaker 1: They find it hard making that count. The Under Investigation
Speaker 1: the show which I was very fortunate enough and we
Speaker 1: worked quite a bit on that show together. I like
Speaker 1: the concept of the show, and I just want to
Speaker 1: ask you a question. Maybe I might take some notes here.
Speaker 1: You got your head around so much information I saw
Speaker 1: when we're filming and the detail of the information. Is
Speaker 1: that something that you're just naturally good at because we
Speaker 1: would be covering one particular thing and then pile a
Speaker 1: paper and you'd get your head around the next part.
Speaker 1: What's where's that skill come from?
Speaker 2: Oh, just research, just having to just I am that
Speaker 2: person who needs to know it all. Unfortunately, I'm grateful
Speaker 2: for the research that's done, but I need to be
Speaker 2: able to see the paper that you got that from,
Speaker 2: or I need to be able to re and I
Speaker 2: need to know the answers to a whole lot of
Speaker 2: stuff as best I can. I go through all those
Speaker 2: police documents and try and make sense of every bit
Speaker 2: of information when we get down to doing those episodes,
Speaker 2: in particular, because a lot of them were, you know,
Speaker 2: from the past, and there was quite a lot of
Speaker 2: information out there and we were trying to, as you know,
Speaker 2: bring it forward new information. I just I don't feel
Speaker 2: good if I don't think I've covered it well that
Speaker 2: I you know, I before I came here, I reread
Speaker 2: my book. Now that sounds ridiculous, but it was like,
Speaker 2: oh gosh, I've got to remember what did I say?
Speaker 2: You know, that's just me. I couldn't come here without
Speaker 2: being ready as best I could.
Speaker 1: As best you could. Well, you've done pretty good. I
Speaker 1: think it's gone pretty ridiculous.
Speaker 2: I did write it.
Speaker 1: But I know what you're saying. I've been inter viewed
Speaker 1: about the book and you write it, and I think
Speaker 1: you get to the point where you've written the book
Speaker 1: and you're so tired of the effort that goes into
Speaker 1: writing the book, you just sort of push.
Speaker 2: And also, I'm writing another book, not about me, but
Speaker 2: I write another book, and my head's in that book,
Speaker 2: so you know, I do. There's a whole lot of
Speaker 2: information I'm shifting. But anyway, yes, I must, I must.
Speaker 1: But that that is that is like we talk and
Speaker 1: you've made some jokes about your career and you've been fortunate,
Speaker 1: but my observation of it lives and picked up on
Speaker 1: a bit of it working with you. But also just
Speaker 1: the way that you carry yourself, you get on with people,
Speaker 1: and that in a ruthless industry, it's not bad to
Speaker 1: just get on with people because no one. They mightn't
Speaker 1: agree with what you did or whatever, but they can't
Speaker 1: say a bad Yeah, I'm sure there's.
Speaker 2: Some people way No, I think fundamentally, you know, I
Speaker 2: like people, you like people. I like people. I think
Speaker 2: most people are good people. You may not agree with
Speaker 2: everything they do or say, but ultimately I like people,
Speaker 2: and I come with good will. I don't come. I'm
Speaker 2: happy to have my mind changed too by the way
Speaker 2: I might feel like I'm not sure about you and
Speaker 2: then come away I do feel good about you. I'm
Speaker 2: happy to give people the benefit of the dubt. I
Speaker 2: think that's not a bad place to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well we might wrap it up here, Liz, but I've
Speaker 1: got to go. This is awkward. Okay, this is life. Yes, Liz,
Speaker 1: the time we've run there. Okay, I'm Gary Jubilin, I'm
Speaker 1: Liz Hayes, and this is I Catch Killers. Can we
Speaker 1: finish with that? Sure, I'll do it first. I'm Gary Jubilin.
Speaker 2: And I'm Liz Hayes. This is I Catch Killers with
Speaker 2: Gary Jubilin.
Speaker 1: Thank you. It's been a lot of fun, Liz. All
Speaker 1: the best for you whatever you're doing. I'm sure. I
Speaker 1: know you're busy, you're doing lots of stuff, but yeah,
Speaker 1: you're a pleasure to work with and it's great avenue
Speaker 1: on here.
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming in, No, thank you was my pleasure. Actually,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: Cheers.