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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. This is part two of my chat with

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Speaker 1: high profile investigative journalists Liza Hayes. In part one, we

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Speaker 1: got a sense of the life of a high profile

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Speaker 1: television presenter and a globe trotting journalists with sixty minutes.

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Speaker 1: In this part, but we took a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: some of the truly fascinating stories covered by Liz, including

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Speaker 1: her involvement in the hunt for theorists pedophile Dolly done,

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Speaker 1: what it was like in Camp x ray, where Australian

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Speaker 1: David Hicks was held, her sit down with survivors of

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Speaker 1: the Link Cafe and her meetings with serial killers. We

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Speaker 1: also talked about the death of Liz's father, which resulted

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Speaker 1: in her reporting on her most difficult story. Liz Hayes,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Nice to still be here.

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Speaker 1: I haven't kicked you out yet or you haven't stormed

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Speaker 1: out yet. Can I ask you a favorite? Could you

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Speaker 1: just say I am Liz Hayes.

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Speaker 2: Well, you don't say I am Li Hayes. You say

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Speaker 2: I'm Liz ha Oh.

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Speaker 1: Okay, certainly, see you've correctly, You've corrected me. I'm Gary

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Speaker 1: jubilan Is Eye Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: How was that excellent?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? Thank you?

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Speaker 2: Maybe you know it's there is an intonation that you

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Speaker 2: have to get right, Okay, get it just maybe in

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Speaker 2: front of the mirrors.

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Speaker 1: Okay, not with practice, this could be hello, Okay. Now,

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Speaker 1: in regards to interviews, when you're interviewing people, I've seen

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Speaker 1: your interview technique. You like to get people people relaxed

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Speaker 1: and then then you hit them with the hard questions.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, no, look I think everybody is at their

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Speaker 2: best when they don't feel you know, threatened, or if

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Speaker 2: they feel relaxed as comfortable as they can. I think

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Speaker 2: that's a that's a given. I think all all people

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Speaker 2: will respond no matter who they are, actually when they

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Speaker 2: feel you know, they're feeling reasonable about themselves or this

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Speaker 2: is you know, it's really hard to say to people

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Speaker 2: just relax when you've got about four cameras around them

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Speaker 2: and it's just you and whoever, and you know it's

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Speaker 2: quite dark everywhere else. But ultimately I just try to

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Speaker 2: engage them at a level where they feel it's okay,

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Speaker 2: and I say, look at you, this is all up

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Speaker 2: to you. You know, you know the answers I don't.

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Speaker 2: I'm asking the questions and.

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Speaker 1: People they're very aware if you're talking to them and

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to nail them or you're giving revealing

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Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself making them feel relaxed, and then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I always look if it's if it's a bad guy,

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Speaker 2: as you would say, I don't give them anything. No,

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Speaker 2: I have every They know they know why they're there,

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Speaker 2: and that's part of the interviewing technique is to know

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Speaker 2: why you're there, what you're aiming to achieve what you're

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Speaker 2: hoping to get. What's this story about? So you pretty

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Speaker 2: much know what you are achieving or would like to achieve.

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Speaker 2: Your research is probably told you what the answers are.

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Speaker 2: But sometimes something totally different comes up, helps up, and

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Speaker 2: you obviously deal with that. But I quite like people

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Speaker 2: feeling like this is a moment for them, if that's

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Speaker 2: what the story is about. I don't have any qualms

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Speaker 2: in bowling up the appropriately difficult question. I don't like

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Speaker 2: I'm not a natural combative person, but I don't have

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Speaker 2: problems doing it if that's what's required.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting you say that I found that I'd come

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Speaker 1: out of in the views where I've had to go

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Speaker 1: hard and I'd be drained because it takes that emotional energy.

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Speaker 1: But you don't feel good about yourself either.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not you know, we don't live our lives

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Speaker 2: every time we go to the to the supermarket nailing

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Speaker 2: that pool girl about you know? Is that price right?

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Speaker 2: You know? No, it's not how we live our lives normally.

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Speaker 2: But when we're having to deal and reveal things are

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Speaker 2: and call people to account, then you have to there's

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Speaker 2: no way around that. I didn't. I never I guess

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Speaker 2: it's not my natural tactic. Go great today now, very jubilant.

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Speaker 1: But you do. I see it in some journeys and

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Speaker 1: there's almost a smugglingness when they've when they've nailed nail

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Speaker 1: a person. I don't think that's the right way to go.

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Speaker 2: And I think when it comes to television at least

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Speaker 2: I think the viewers can see and they will make

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Speaker 2: a decision also about you and the questions you ask

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Speaker 2: and how you ask them and if you know, if

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Speaker 2: you're not careful, they will have turned on you and

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Speaker 2: somehow rather like the Baddie weird, but it happens. So

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Speaker 2: you know, you have to have a fair minded approach

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Speaker 2: to those things. But if somebody is just out lying,

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Speaker 2: you have very little choice but to say.

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Speaker 1: And go back and present and present the facts and

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Speaker 1: call them into account. Okay, you relax, Oh yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: all good. All right. Well, now I'm going to ask

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Speaker 1: you a question, and this is in my detailed research

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Speaker 1: about Liz Hayes. Reading the book your book, what I wrote,

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Speaker 1: it's come to my attention that you cohabitated with well

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Speaker 1: known TV presenter Richard Wilkinson. Yes, but in the do

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Speaker 1: you care to explain yourself?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in the platonic sense I want to make And

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Speaker 2: that's one of the things I've had to say over

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Speaker 2: and over. Guess what. I did not go out with Richard.

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Speaker 2: We shared an apartment together. But yes, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: Actually we had a ball, had a great time. He

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Speaker 2: was he was just doing MTV, that was you know,

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Speaker 2: and he'd come out of a marriage. And we're in

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Speaker 2: the back of a limo going to a charity event

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Speaker 2: and he told me that, you know, his world had

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Speaker 2: fallen over and he didn't have anywhere to live. Do

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Speaker 2: you think he meant that? I set up and I

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Speaker 2: didn't even know. Yes, I can be by the way anyway.

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Speaker 2: I said, look, I've got a spare bedroom and a

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Speaker 2: spear bathroom actually, so if if you get stuck. He

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Speaker 2: arrived the next day. He was stuck anyway. But it

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Speaker 2: turned out to be a fabulous friendship, a great We

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Speaker 2: had a great time. And look, he's popular. He was

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Speaker 2: a very popular man. I have to say, I've had

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Speaker 2: a lot of had a lot of girlfriends.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, we've never picked it.

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Speaker 2: But I know and look to be fair to him

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Speaker 2: because if he hears this and thinks it's one side,

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Speaker 2: and he'll say he endured a few interesting characters on

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Speaker 2: my behalf as well.

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Speaker 1: So okay, well secret should stay secret. And yeah, we

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Speaker 1: talked in part one about the people's right for privacy

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Speaker 1: and I respect your right for privacy. Yes, we'll move on. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well this is I catch skill as we jump from

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Speaker 1: one thing to another. But a crime that had an

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Speaker 1: impact on the nation, and I was actually involved in

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Speaker 1: it too, as doing the crime scene was the Link

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Speaker 1: Cafe siege and you had an opportunity or you did

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Speaker 1: interview the survivors are the hostages of that as a

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Speaker 1: collective group of people. I know that had an impact

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Speaker 1: on you. It took something out of you, or you've

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Speaker 1: felt the motion from what there. I've spoken to Luis

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Speaker 1: a Hope, an amazing woman, and what she endured I

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Speaker 1: know when I was in the crime so it had

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Speaker 1: some We went in straight after the incident had been

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Speaker 1: resolved and there was just a neariness about the place

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Speaker 1: and you could almost feel the fear in the in

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Speaker 1: the room. What was it like sitting down with the

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Speaker 1: hostages and speaking to them after they survived what they did?

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Speaker 2: Oh awful? It was pretty raw. It was eight of

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Speaker 2: them that I spoke to, and all of them individuals

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Speaker 2: different how they reacted to this incredible scenario where they've

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Speaker 2: been held hostage in a cafe in the CBD and

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Speaker 2: you know, they're gone in there for their morning coffee

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't end for another what sixteen hours or

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Speaker 2: something late that night, and it doesn't end. Well, well,

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Speaker 2: no it doesn't. Let's face it, No, ultimately it didn't.

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Speaker 2: So they allowed me in. They let me come into

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Speaker 2: that room, that cafe with them, which I thought was

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Speaker 2: incredibly generous of them. They gave me permission to understand

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Speaker 2: what it was like for them. And I think there

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Speaker 2: were times when I just I could see inside that

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Speaker 2: cafe when they were talking to me, and I did feel,

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Speaker 2: oh God, what would I do? I don't know what

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Speaker 2: I would do. And I felt terrible for those who

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Speaker 2: ran and felt guilt. I felt terrible for those who

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Speaker 2: were left behind and couldn't run. I felt you know,

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Speaker 2: it was just it was an incredible moment in time

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Speaker 2: where this story allowed me to understand what it must

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Speaker 2: be like to as best I could, to what that

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Speaker 2: situation must be like, you know, to be held against

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Speaker 2: your will and basically been they were of the opinion

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Speaker 2: this guy had a bomb. They were told that basically,

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Speaker 2: and then and to know that he's not there to

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Speaker 2: look after them. All their lives are on the line.

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Speaker 2: And I was totally moved by them, totally, you know,

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Speaker 2: those who were thinking about what to do, those who

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Speaker 2: were just trying to stay calm, those who were you know,

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Speaker 2: Louisa Hope's got a mum. Louisa's not able to run

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Speaker 2: that easily if in the end, you know, mum couldn't run,

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Speaker 2: so she had to decide not to run either. That's

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Speaker 2: the first time in that kind of scenario I've been

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Speaker 2: able to sit and listen to what that was like.

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Speaker 2: And it did. It really took me into a moment

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Speaker 2: in time which it stopped me and I thought, I

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Speaker 2: actually don't know what I would have done. I really

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Speaker 2: don't know what I would have done.

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Speaker 1: Terrifying, isn't it? What they did.

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Speaker 2: Feel their terror and I felt their their anguish. I

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Speaker 2: felt at all. Actually I felt really moved by it.

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Speaker 1: And You've got an understanding too that people that ran

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Speaker 1: how they felt when someone died, of others that didn't run,

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Speaker 1: so many decisions to make, and who knows how you

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Speaker 1: would react in that situation.

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Speaker 2: Do you know how you would react because you have

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Speaker 2: some training and you have some know how. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: come from a place of I've had some hostile environment training.

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Speaker 2: But you know, there's no way in the world I

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Speaker 2: would have been sure of any decision I was going

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Speaker 2: to make.

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Speaker 1: No, there's things that I think in my mind and

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Speaker 1: until you've actually confronted with them, what could be done

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Speaker 1: or could couldn't be done. But yeah, I understood people

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Speaker 1: like that with no training, just as you said, for

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Speaker 1: a morning coffee. And I think that's what rocked everyone too.

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Speaker 1: It could have been any one of us, and it

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Speaker 1: literally was just you're in the wrong place at the

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Speaker 1: wrong time, and you're caught up in that. You also

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Speaker 1: spoke to the sniper police sniper, didn't you?

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Speaker 2: I did. Davidson, Yes, and he was terribly affected. And

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that affected him from

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Speaker 2: what I could gather is terribly nice guy. By the way,

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Speaker 2: is he's watching it as a sniper and communications were difficult,

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Speaker 2: is how I would say it. But he felt and

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Speaker 2: he saw Tory executed. Tory Johnson, the cafe manager, was executed,

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Speaker 2: and he saw that, and he felt as though he'd

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Speaker 2: let him down. And I think that's the core of

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Speaker 2: what gives him that terrible PTSD that they have, including

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Speaker 2: the the and who went in, the head sniper entry team,

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Speaker 2: all of that plays out in your head, and I guess,

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Speaker 2: but I could see also from his perspective, and I

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Speaker 2: heard all the other arguments of whether he could have

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Speaker 2: really taken the shot, or whether it would have been accurate,

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Speaker 2: or you know, he shouldn't have been allowed his mind

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Speaker 2: to be worried about that. He did the best, he

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Speaker 2: caught all that. But as a human being, he's there,

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Speaker 2: he's he's in a position where he felt in his

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Speaker 2: heart he could do this, and then he sees this

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Speaker 2: terrible moment. I can understand. And yet he was highly trained.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, but he would have known with his training,

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Speaker 1: and I can see the sense of responsibility with the

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Speaker 1: felt and different things. But yeah, the entry team that

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Speaker 1: went in too, like those guys, Yeah, they believed that

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Speaker 1: he had a bomb too, but they still went in.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it was it was awakening for the city

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Speaker 1: in the regards think because it was so public. It

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Speaker 1: was just everything about it that just sort of okay,

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Speaker 1: this is the world's come to us now with that

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Speaker 1: type of situation.

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Speaker 2: It was a moment where I think Australia literally changed.

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Speaker 2: It was like that kind of terrorism can happen here,

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Speaker 2: and that was what I viewed as terrorism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've got to call it, call it

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Speaker 1: for what it is. And I think there was lessons

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Speaker 1: learned from the police of plast response and all that,

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Speaker 1: which is, if anything comes from it, I hope there's

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Speaker 1: some lessons lessons learned ful.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And that's hard for everybody. It's really hard. I

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Speaker 2: don't profess to have a high moral ground or view

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Speaker 2: on any of that because I don't know except for

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Speaker 2: what we're all told. And even then I still can't

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Speaker 2: be sure other than to say what I am sure

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Speaker 2: is that, yes, everybody is better in terms of knowing

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Speaker 2: what should be done better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it was a contained situation too, and

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Speaker 1: you could imagine if it was a mobile situation how

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Speaker 1: difficult that would be. But okay, where are we at now,

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Speaker 1: klu Klux Klan. Come on, I've never got to speak

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Speaker 1: to someone that's in the klu Klux Klan, but I'm

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Speaker 1: getting to speak to someone that's spoken to someone that's

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Speaker 1: in the klu Klux Klan.

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Speaker 2: That was a very weird business. I have to say.

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Speaker 2: We were going to speak to the ku Klux Klan,

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Speaker 2: which is even hard to say, because the clan was

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Speaker 2: of the opinion that Donald Trump was giving them a

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Speaker 2: wink and a nod, that what they believed was what

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Speaker 2: he might have believed, because he wouldn't come out and

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Speaker 2: you know and say that they were a racist, irresponsible

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Speaker 2: group of haters. But they were of the opinion that,

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Speaker 2: so you know, he was on their side. So off

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Speaker 2: we went, and we went to this particular place which

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Speaker 2: was a clan country and the clan family. They had

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Speaker 2: this massive property where they had, you know, a conference

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Speaker 2: center and a bit of schooling and all on, yes

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Speaker 2: and where you can come and learn a whole lot more.

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Speaker 2: That had a servenir shop.

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Speaker 1: I'd have to visit there.

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Speaker 2: I don't think. I didn't see any pillow cases or

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Speaker 2: anything like that, but they had anyway, they and they

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Speaker 2: had a television studio and they broadcast twice a day,

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Speaker 2: and that had big billboards on the side of the road.

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Speaker 2: And look, what can I say, It's not my world

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Speaker 2: by long shot, and trying to get.

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Speaker 1: Into it to clarify that, but.

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Speaker 2: Trying to get into their heads about why you feel this,

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Speaker 2: Why are you so threatened by people who aren't white?

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Speaker 2: What is the problem here? What, what's what's going on?

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Speaker 2: And there's no good answer to that.

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Speaker 1: Did you get a sense of who they were, like,

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Speaker 1: were coming from?

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Speaker 2: They were generation of people they come from usually well

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Speaker 2: a long line of you know clans. Yeah, true, but

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Speaker 2: it was you can't. It's like, you know, it's a

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Speaker 2: circular conversation and you just will never nail them ever.

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Speaker 1: Now down there was they would justify their positions. They

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Speaker 1: could in their minds.

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Speaker 2: But like a lot of cults and people in these

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Speaker 2: kind of groups are quite seasoned answer not answering questions.

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Speaker 2: They're slippery, you know, they don't they they want you

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Speaker 2: to believe that they're not haters at all. You know,

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Speaker 2: they just feel like the white person who is now

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Speaker 2: getting a bad deal and all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Their history tells a whole other thing. But I think

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Speaker 2: we're true. Are you getting to the muffins?

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Speaker 1: Let's do the muffins?

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Speaker 2: Well, Ben, who happens to be now my partner, who

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Speaker 2: was the sun man. I don't know whether the sound

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Speaker 2: records is probably what I should say. He's raised with.

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Speaker 2: We can't go into people's homes without having something. You

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Speaker 2: must always bring something like a plate. You know, you

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Speaker 2: must bring a case.

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Speaker 1: This is your country upbringing.

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Speaker 2: It is, it is, it is. And we're all like, okay,

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Speaker 2: So we pulled over like we're going to spend the

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Speaker 2: whole day with them, and you know, in some respects

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Speaker 2: we have to be respectful, so we will do that.

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Speaker 2: And wow, we turned up with a dozen muffins and

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Speaker 2: way out because it all ended badly, because it was

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Speaker 2: always in badly.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't find that common GRAMD.

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Speaker 2: They just they just when you just can't say that

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Speaker 2: anything they're saying is truthful, they do want you to go.

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Speaker 2: But there they were, the muffins to be eaten. And

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Speaker 2: I did say that even they whilst they had a

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Speaker 2: mouthful of muffins, couldn't tell us to bugger off, because

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Speaker 2: really we brought them up.

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Speaker 1: For the good tactic.

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Speaker 2: If we want anything, always like in the matters department.

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Speaker 2: But yes, no, most it is the most peculiar business.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I just I'm fascinated that you get to

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Speaker 1: speak to these people. We see them, we hear about them,

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Speaker 1: But there's people out there.

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Speaker 2: Like you've spoken to cult leaders.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, any cult if you you have people that

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Speaker 1: are vulnerable, because I think a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: go in the cults are looking for something in life,

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Speaker 1: and then it's easy to manipulate. It's psychology one oh

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Speaker 1: one too. Oh your part will look after you and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's part of part.

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Speaker 2: Of what for them. Mind you, the Klan is long established. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so you know they've been around forever and you know

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Speaker 2: what you're getting into it.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, we talk about your values that you grew

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Speaker 1: up with because of your family and your parents. Imagine

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Speaker 1: if you've grown up and say everyone in town you

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Speaker 1: don't trust them, and that that type of stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I yes, I think it's really hard to people

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Speaker 2: step outside their families and defy their families. I think

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Speaker 2: that's a really hard thing to do. And if you're

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Speaker 2: in the Klan, I would have thought it'd be particularly

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Speaker 2: hard because their finances and everything are locked in. So

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think it's it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to at least go in there

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Speaker 1: and put the spotlight so we get a sense.

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Speaker 2: Of I was fascinated to meet plans, you know, I

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Speaker 2: was fascinated to kind of get a bead on them

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Speaker 2: a bit, you know, and the respectable face that they

359
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Speaker 2: tried to put forward, you know, and you know, it's

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Speaker 2: it was a business as well.

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Speaker 1: You also hung out with some gangsters in Chicago. What's

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Speaker 1: your mate's name side CTC do pop or.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Chicago gangster he's a serious story. I

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Speaker 2: mean at the South Side they been there were particular,

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Speaker 2: so many young black youths were dying, and innocent people like,

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Speaker 2: you know, people mothers and their children were dying in

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Speaker 2: their houses because the bullets were coming in they were

368
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Speaker 2: sleeping and shot on their bed basically because of this

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Speaker 2: unruly gang shooting. Hey, we're seeing a bit of it ourselves.

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Speaker 2: But there's you know, innocent people getting.

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Speaker 1: Caught in steroids over there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so we went over there and our connection

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Speaker 2: was but he came from Chicago and he but he

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Speaker 2: was he actually now lived in California. So we had

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Speaker 2: to wait for him to fly and he was running

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Speaker 2: late because he had to pick up a gun. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, all right, and we

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Speaker 2: were going out with him to meet some some of

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Speaker 2: the gangs. And no, it was palpable. You you got

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Speaker 2: a very clear sense that it was a fairly injurious

381
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Speaker 2: thing just to drive in the streets, and it was

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Speaker 2: an education. You know. We spoke to the funeral director

383
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Speaker 2: there now, who was an extraordinary man, but he said

384
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Speaker 2: that young people were coming in to decide which casket

385
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Speaker 2: they were going to get at the age of like thirteen,

386
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Speaker 2: because he said they were of the opinion they were

387
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Speaker 2: going to make thirty five, and he said quite often

388
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Speaker 2: they didn't. But his point was, and a lot of

389
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Speaker 2: people's argument was that if these were white people kids

390
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Speaker 2: killing white kids, maybe something might have been done about this.

391
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Speaker 2: But because in other words, racism might have been playing

392
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Speaker 2: a role in why that wasn't being sorted. But I

393
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Speaker 2: got to say, I got to say that as a

394
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Speaker 2: white woman on the street, you know, chatting up a

395
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Speaker 2: couple of gang bloody members, oh, I didn't think, okay,

396
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Speaker 2: well this is this is my job. But it was

397
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Speaker 2: bizarre and it was dangerous. It just felt dangerous.

398
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Speaker 1: You just knew, you got the sense of it. Well,

399
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Speaker 1: I think like the figures that every three hours someone

400
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: was shot and every four hours someone was murdered in that.

401
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: Part, they were their statistics and even the police were

402
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 2: getting out. They even they believed it.

403
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Speaker 1: Was two days.

404
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 2: It's out of control.

405
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 1: Problematic that can just in the country and it's not resolved.

406
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Speaker 1: We'll bring it back to our country. And I get

407
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Speaker 1: your take on speaking to cyrial killer Bill McDonald and

408
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Speaker 1: Leonard Lawson who was a murderer and rapist.

409
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Speaker 2: So these guys were serial killers. I didn't know much

410
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Speaker 2: about them, to be honest, but.

411
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Speaker 1: Well, we haven't heard a lot about them because their

412
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: crimes were from when was it in the sixties. McDonald

413
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: became known as a mutilator, stabbing five Mile victims to

414
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Speaker 1: death and removing their genitals, terrorizing Sydney in the early sixties.

415
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Speaker 1: And then you've got laws who raped three women in

416
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Speaker 1: the fifties and seven years later, after being released from prison,

417
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: murdered a young girl and took a hole full of

418
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Speaker 1: Sydney students hostage before shooting the fifteen year old pupil.

419
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Speaker 2: I bet a lot of people don't even know about that.

420
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Speaker 1: I did, ye, Yeah, I've heard them only because of

421
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: the work I've done, But yeah, these people are people

422
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: are out there. Tell us what do you sit down

423
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Speaker 1: with them?

424
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Speaker 2: It was like, well, Lawson was in Grafton Jail and

425
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: McDonald was in Long Bay, I think, and so they

426
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: both agreed for us to come and chat to the man.

427
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 2: I guess it was because they are nearing the end

428
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Speaker 2: of their life. I thought it would be fascinating to

429
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: understand what makes the serial killer tick. But of course

430
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Speaker 2: the serial killer is not going to say, look, Liz,

431
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: although explain a little. Although I have to say McDonald

432
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: did say he was a monster. Donald McDonald didn't hesitate

433
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: in saying he couldn't stop himself. He just, you know,

434
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: just his backstory might have given you a hint of problems.

435
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: He couldn't keep a job, he didn't know where his

436
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 2: next meal was coming from. You know, sometimes be quite homeless.

437
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 2: But you might be able to argue he had a

438
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: mental illness. And the style of crime was, you know,

439
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: removing male general tools is pretty out there. And I

440
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: guess if you got him to really talk, maybe you'll

441
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: find a reason for that.

442
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: What the history of it.

443
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, he just looked like a bloke who was ready

444
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 2: to just die in jail, and he was quite happy

445
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 2: about that. He didn't mind being in jail. I felt

446
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 2: he felt comfortable in jail because a was being fed

447
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 2: and b he knew that he would just probably kill

448
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: some more.

449
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: Well, they're the type of people that society, society needs

450
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: to be.

451
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 2: Protected from totally.

452
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: And did you find and I found this one? Seeing

453
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: opposite notorious killers sometimes there what's the word, I'm looking

454
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: for normalness? Anybody else not stamped with I'm a serial killer?

455
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: And that's that's a chilling part about it, Like people

456
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: want to see the monster and sometimes they're not the monster.

457
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember when I was at Grafton, No it

458
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: was it Kemst Grafton and Leonard Lawson was brought in

459
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: and I'd already been told, you know, not to sit

460
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 2: too close to him and all that sort of stuff,

461
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: so I'm like sitting back. But an actual fact, I

462
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: was not at risk at all. You know, this was

463
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: a bloke who his personality was one that wanted me

464
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: to believe he was incredibly sorry for what he had

465
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: done and he wanted to be forgiven and he'd been

466
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: married with three kids and just couldn't understand what had

467
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 2: happened that he'd done this, but he kept doing it

468
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: and he and he's the one to have a key

469
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: to his own cell.

470
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: Because he didn't trust people because a lot.

471
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: Of thieves and he lives and he was an artist

472
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: and he was so took me into his cell to

473
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: show me, you know, his paintings and stuff like that.

474
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 2: What am I doing in here? But look, in terms

475
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: of being a seemingly an ordinary bloke, yes, there we are,

476
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: you know, this old fellow. And he looking and he said,

477
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: if it helps you know, I spent twenty odd years

478
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 2: and I never saw the sun and the moon. I

479
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: never had grass under my feet, all that sort of stuff.

480
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: So you know, I want you to know I have

481
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: felt punished, but it's all small potatoes for victims and

482
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: their families or you know. So, but I did. I

483
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: did find it fascinating, I must say, to just look

484
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: at these people and figure out, Okay, you're one of

485
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: those people that I could never be sure about this

486
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: in the street, and I wouldn't have picked you.

487
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: That's I think that's the thing that I get from

488
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: them quite often. You can't can't pick it. But I

489
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: also if I I'm not sure how long you've spent

490
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: with them, but if you spend enough time, I walk

491
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: out of the those type of situations and feel dirty

492
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: like you just yeah, it's just you want to just

493
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: sort of wash yourself away from it.

494
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,959
Speaker 2: Look, I didn't necessarily feel that, but I do. I

495
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: did feel as though, well McDonald didn't try and change

496
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: my views or anything like that, but just being in

497
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: his presence it does strangely make you feel like this

498
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: has not been a great part of society. I've been

499
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: mixing with and Lawson. Of course, I just thought he

500
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 2: was a con man. He was just trying his hardest

501
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: to look put on a good face.

502
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: Now, speaking of bad people, dully done. The pedophile, Yes,

503
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: now this is one that you should be very proud

504
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: of finding playing the part and find finding him. Do

505
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: you want to tell us a story about that? Because

506
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: he was the Australia's most wanted pedophile.

507
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: He was at the time, and he had fled the

508
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: country with the full knowledge that he was wanted. And

509
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: we got a tip off that he was in Honduras

510
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: and that his passport was up for renewal. So therefore

511
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: we knew we probably wouldn't he wasn't going to go

512
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: to this Straandon embassy to get it renewed, we didn't think,

513
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: so we had the were of the opinion he's probably

514
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: not going to go anywhere. He'll probably stay there. Now

515
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 2: you might find this slightly historical, but the police apparently

516
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: didn't have the resources to go, and.

517
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: Lise, I will not have you criticized police on my

518
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: catch killers. And that's really and.

519
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: No because and I get it, but you know, sixty

520
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: minutes had the resources. And we put a woman on

521
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: the ground who a producer and she could speak Spanish

522
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: and she Portuguese whatever the language is. But she got

523
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: on the ground and just went village by village, bus

524
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: by bus and tracked him down. And then we had

525
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: to to get her to film him, so she had

526
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: to have someone help her lure him into a meeting

527
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: where she could film him without him knowing. Then we

528
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: had to send that film back to the police here

529
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: to say that's him, this is him, no doubt. And

530
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: it was like, yes, that's him, Okay, well we'll go

531
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: and get him. Who wants to come, But the AFP,

532
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: I think the New Southwest Police, but the DEA, the

533
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: Department of the Drug Enforcement Agency from America had to

534
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: come because to get him out of Honduras into America

535
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: where he could be extradited was their role. So we

536
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: get over there and of course all these people waiting

537
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: for us to bring him in, which we did. So

538
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: we brought him. We lured him in ya someone who

539
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: was offering him a business opportunity to a hotel. And

540
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: it was so funny because we all gathered the cops

541
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: and are still gathered in a room beforehand and discussed

542
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 2: how we're going to do this and what we wanted

543
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: to achieve, and and an agreement with them that you know,

544
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: we could given we found the bloke, can we film him?

545
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: Is that all right? And and but we had to

546
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: be cognizant of the law, and they have a job

547
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: and the whole point is to get him. So we

548
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: can't let this bloke obviously slip through our things and

549
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: they miss him. That would be a travesty. So we

550
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: did all that. We had the conversation and then the

551
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: agreed line from me because somebody had your pieces in it.

552
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: How long are you going to keep running for mister Dunn,

553
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: which meant he's about to go and put his hand

554
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: on the doorknob and leave the room the hotel room.

555
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: That was okay, that's it.

556
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: And so but I was saying, how was that Dolly

557
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: Dunn's been lured up to this? Hotel room and the

558
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: person gets a call. We organized call for him to

559
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: say get out, and he goes, oh, I've just got

560
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: to pop down on the lobby quickly he goes, he

561
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: leaves the room, and Dolly goes okay. And Dolly's got

562
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: a scotch and he's on the lounge and he's got

563
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: a cigarette and he goes, okay, yeah, and he's looking

564
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: around because we've got cameras in the room we can

565
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: watch him and so. And then we've got a connecting room.

566
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: So we come through the connecting room door. And I

567
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: can't imagine, but Doty's done, must have thought. But he

568
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: was pretty on it, you know. I could see he

569
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: was I was more nervous than him, you know. And

570
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: you could see he was switching. He was like trying

571
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: to work out, Okay, how am I going to get

572
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: out of here? So he was headed trying to head

573
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: for the door, and I can't stop him, of course,

574
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: But it was a bizarre scenario.

575
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: For him and the crime. He was a teacher, maris.

576
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: Brothers, he was, yes, and he is his school boys.

577
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: He was filming young men, young boys and all that

578
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And the evidence was all there, but

579
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: it was well, I just said, it was a strange

580
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: business going out and getting this this guy this big.

581
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: Well when because he was he was on the run.

582
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: I think it all blew up in the police Royal

583
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: commissioned where it came out and yeah, but that was

584
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: that was a good get So I like that. I

585
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: like those stories. That's where about that. Yeah, yeah, that's

586
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: where the media are doing well.

587
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: Well, it is where media can do well, and it

588
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: was It doesn't happen like that very often, but it

589
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: was a great cooperation as well. We weren't blocked. I

590
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: think it was accepted that might as well use sixty

591
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: minutes resources if that's the way it's going.

592
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: To I've always and I do understand you're going to

593
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: protect the integrity of investigations and all that, but there's

594
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: so many opportunities where the media can help. And I

595
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: think the police are slowly coming round to the fact that, yeah,

596
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: like we've podcast teachers, pat that type of thing. They've

597
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: got to open the doors up that. Yeah, if we're

598
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: trying to solve something, we got to rely on the community,

599
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: and the community might be in your case, it was

600
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: the media.

601
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think look, we all have to be

602
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 2: cognizant of the law, and we do. You know, if

603
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: we're really about getting you know, the bad guy or

604
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: woman out, then we do have to let the police

605
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 2: you take control. But in this scenario, I guess it's

606
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 2: because we invested heavily. We put someone on the ground

607
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: for a month, we tracked them down, we did the

608
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: whole thing, and then we said to the police, you know,

609
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: we're o and they were very they were very understanding there.

610
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that worked out. Well. You also went into Camp X, right, Well, yeah,

611
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: David Hicks's help y obey.

612
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: This is this little slash of paradise in Cuba was

613
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 2: the Americans run and it you know, you land there

614
00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 2: and it's it's totally control by you know, authorities. But

615
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 2: you go into town and it's all it's a little America,

616
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's you can get your hamburgers and

617
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 2: pizzas and beers and everything like that. But then you

618
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: just up the road is this horrific place.

619
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: Just describe it.

620
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 2: Well, the first incarnation of Camp X was we drove

621
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: around and they had a lot of because it came

622
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: out of really nine to eleven happening and they were

623
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: bringing what they perceived as terrorists from all over the world. Really, yeah,

624
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: And David Hicks got caught up. He was in Afghanistan

625
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 2: and he's an Australian who you know. I think he

626
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: said he was troubled or always trying to find himself,

627
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 2: I think really to be fair to him, and found

628
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: himself in this situation. But he when I when I

629
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: went there, it was it just looks like it was

630
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: all barbed wired and netted off. But you look in

631
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: and just lots of orange jumpsuits, goggles quite often, you know,

632
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: chains and whatever out in the open. Really a bit

633
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 2: of a tin shed occasionally for some shelter. It was.

634
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 2: It was pretty confronting. It was a pretty rough place.

635
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 2: There was no there was not going to be. As

636
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: they said to me, there are no medium security terrorists,

637
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: so there will be There will be no medium security here.

638
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: And I think America in particular was angry. They were

639
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: not in the.

640
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: Mood to be no half measures.

641
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: It was people would argue, not even the mood to

642
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 2: be humane. So it was pretty out there. So the

643
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: next time we went, I went one time. Next time

644
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: they'd improved facilities because the world was starting to come

645
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: down on them because not everybody was guilty, it turns out.

646
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 1: And that blew up. There was stuff that was was

647
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: uncovered the way the guards were treating some of the prisoners.

648
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: But you can be held and it still can be

649
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 2: held there without charge forever. That's well, that's the argument

650
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: for the rest of the world. And we get we

651
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 2: get that. You know, you don't much like these people,

652
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: but you have to have evidence to hold people. And anyway,

653
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: as we know, David Hicks came home. But yeah, I

654
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: this was this was a place where there was no forgiveness.

655
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 2: There will be no forgiveness in this joint. This was tough.

656
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 2: This was hard. This was to show the world, no,

657
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 2: we don't put up with.

658
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: Any of that. How we're going to react. Did you

659
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: did you report on nine eleven or in any capacity?

660
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 2: I wasn't. I didn't get across there. I came over

661
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: later because some Australians were caught in the Twin Towers. Yeah,

662
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 2: and interviewed some of the people or a particular person

663
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: who had to run for their lives down that I

664
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: think I'm not sure which tar, but it's you know,

665
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: that was something wasn't that was. I actually was in

666
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: a hotel in my bed in Melbourne and had the

667
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 2: news on and I thought, what's what's that? But when

668
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: I saw the second jet go into the Second Tower

669
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: without change, the world didn't. Yeah, that was that was

670
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: I think we all felt unsettled by that. You know,

671
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: it was suddenly like, oh, if that could happened in America,

672
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 2: And of course we did see some you know, ripple

673
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: effects of that.

674
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: What about you spent time in Afghanistan. What's it like

675
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: for you going into it like a war zone?

676
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: Well, the first time it was the Taliban was fighting

677
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: the Northern Alliance as it was called, so we'd gone

678
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 2: in there to see it's a it's a it's a

679
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: bizarre business because Afghanistan is very beautiful, you know, the

680
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 2: Hindu Kush, the mountains, everything is quite wonderful, and yet

681
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: there it always felt like it was could erupt at

682
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 2: any time. They didn't much like women, but they hate

683
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: them a whole lot more now, but you know, they

684
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: tolerated me. We were constantly trying to find the front line,

685
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: which was you know, well where is this war? And

686
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 2: we'd hooked up with this warlord who had been well

687
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: educated in America in the UK, and you know, his

688
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: father had handed down, you know, the Warlord title. He'd

689
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: built this big pink eagle up on a mountain which

690
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 2: you could call you crawl up into and sit on

691
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 2: his rugs and drink. I'm not sure if it was tea.

692
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: It's a very you know, there's a lot of hypocrisy.

693
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: I think, how did you find yourself like from a

694
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: personal point of view, being in those environments? So were

695
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: you worried that the whole time?

696
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: Or did you I was the first time around. I

697
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: was particularly naive. So we're walking too, we're walking to

698
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: watch and we were told we'd be you know, we

699
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: finally found the line. But we're walking to a place

700
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: down towards this bridge, and we were told, you know, okay,

701
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: this is where we might be able to get some shots.

702
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: Walking with some soldiers down there, and then suddenly there's

703
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: this gunfire going off and everybody hits the deck except

704
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: I go, what was that which was appalling? In grand

705
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 2: high sight? Glorius hussit hindsight, you know, And Ben, who

706
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: was now my partner, he was this hand pulled me

707
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: into the ditch and said get down like you dummy.

708
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 2: And then of course suddenly I became very aware oh yeah.

709
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: Suddenly I became very weare they shooting get us? Because

710
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: we were told that the tripod we had looked a

711
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: bit like a rock a pearl pro pearl grenade, you know,

712
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,479
Speaker 2: So it was.

713
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: Like, did you give the tripod to Ben to carry?

714
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: You're here?

715
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: Oh?

716
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: Well, Vera was trying to do a piece camera and

717
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: I noticed all our soldiers and including Ben others, all

718
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: hiding behind running and hiding behind wall that I was

719
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: not behind. So I learn pretty quickly ignorance can Oh

720
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 2: it saved me. It saved me totally, because I'm not

721
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: even sure I would have gotten out of the car.

722
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: But like just so so many experiences like and on

723
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: an aircraft carry of the use aircraft carry five five

724
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: hundred people on the ship. What was that like?

725
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: Oh quite something. We're just getting on is quite the trick.

726
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 2: So you get on this sea too or whatever. It's

727
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: a it's an aircraft that lands on the deck that

728
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: brings you in. But they tell you and you've got

729
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: to be aware of it that we are. It's it's

730
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a crash landing. So you come

731
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 2: in and but we we rev up as we come

732
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: down because if we miss the toe rap it's supposed

733
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: to collect us. We've got to be able to take

734
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: off and go over the edge and get airborne, so

735
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: we can't afford to pull the engines down. We're actually

736
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: going to be going harder faster as we're coming in.

737
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: And that, to me, it was like, you are kidding me,

738
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: and you know how you're ready for that crash? Oh

739
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: and I did that twice. I did it on a

740
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: couple of aircraft carriers and to me was like, what

741
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 2: am I doing? But anyway, Yes, a floating city. That

742
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: is exactly what they are. It's amazing. And all those

743
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: fighter jets, you know, as they've all been sent off,

744
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 2: it is you are. That is a battle zone right

745
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 2: there in the sea.

746
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: Just a floating war machine.

747
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 2: It is. It is. It's very testosterone. It's a very

748
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: you know, I figure I'm a very much a woman

749
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: because I'm like, actually, that's not fair to the women

750
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: of the world, because let's just talking about me. I'm like,

751
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: oh god, what was that.

752
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: That's a noisy plane? Wake you up in the morning.

753
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: You never slept. Let me put it that way, because

754
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: they're they're also landing on your head underneath a great

755
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: force and they have to land the same way I

756
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: did coming in hot.

757
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: I haven't even covered the celebrity, so that's because you've

758
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: said you don't like gossips. At the start, give us

759
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: a celebrity story. What was your will simplify it? What

760
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: was the celebrity you enjoyed most talking to.

761
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: Okay, I look for a couple and everybody will go.

762
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: Of course, George Clooney always was professional. He'd turn up

763
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: and he'd be very professional. But Dustin Hoffman was a

764
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: whole new ball game. He wouldn't go, just like he

765
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: was just having a fabulous time. And when his publicist said, look,

766
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 2: we probably should leave here, when you go, I'm fine.

767
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: And then at the end he asked for the whole

768
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: interview to be sent to him. He enjoyed it so much.

769
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: So he was old school. You know, they turn up

770
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 2: and they know why they're there, and they just if

771
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: they're in the mood. Admittedly, but he was great. And

772
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: probably she's coming to town, so it's a terrible story

773
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 2: to tell. But Mariah Carey, honest God, she kept us

774
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: waiting like eight hours. That's the question is why did

775
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: we wait well? Because we were constantly being told she's

776
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: just in the next room, and she's just you know,

777
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: she'll be in a minute.

778
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 1: So just strung an in.

779
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 2: A minute, and it went on. I left my hotel

780
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: room at like five in the afternoon, and when I

781
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: walked in, it was like four in the morning, and

782
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 2: I was setting up getting ready for breakfast, and I thought,

783
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: I just I just don't even know why, you know,

784
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: how the life goes out of you. She's arrived and

785
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: it's like, how did even get one of my finners?

786
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: Not one of my farmers? Hi? Hi? Just she looked

787
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 2: a million dollars and she tried really hard, but I

788
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 2: just just we could.

789
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: All look at me, okay to get ready.

790
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 2: Well, she was doing other things, but I just truly

791
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: it was, Yeah.

792
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: You've said you don't enjoy.

793
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: It's, oh, well, I think it's because of the machinery

794
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: around it.

795
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: It's just not the celebrity, it's all the people are

796
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: around them.

797
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: It's the whole you know, doing and throwing an agreement

798
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 2: and you know everybody's watching and making sure. It's just

799
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 2: there's I think I call it po lava, and that's

800
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 2: exactly what it is. There's so much polava, and in

801
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: the end, you just really want to sit down. We

802
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 2: all know why we're here. You're going to flog on

803
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: film or something, and I'm going to be grateful that

804
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: you want to talk to me, and we'll discuss a

805
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: whole lot of things that you might be okay with.

806
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 2: I'm not going to embarrass you. I'm not. I'm here

807
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 2: to make a great story. That's all I'm here to do,

808
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: and it will help sell what you've got. It seems

809
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 2: like so much hard work, and I don't And in

810
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: the end, you always feel like they arrive hating you

811
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: and they leave hating you, and.

812
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: When they're not genuine, I'm sure it comes across and

813
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: they've just got the lip service and this is what.

814
00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, and I'm it's a big brush stroke I'm making.

815
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: I know because there are some very good exceptions. But

816
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: by and large, for me, these are color stories, ultimately

817
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 2: and nice and I think we need them.

818
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: Not your favorite, not for me. One of the one

819
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: of the stories you didn't we mentioned that before, but

820
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: was going from celebrities to a very personal thing. But

821
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: the death of your father. Do you want to just

822
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: tell us about that and why you did a story

823
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: about that, and why you considered the hardest story that

824
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: you've done, and possibly one of the most important stories.

825
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 2: Yes, well, my dad, who was my rock, really country

826
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 2: town man, genuine, trusting, caring, thoughtful bloke, dairy farmer. He

827
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: got what was pneumonia and ultimately went to hospital via

828
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 2: an ambulance and went into the local public hospital, was

829
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: treated and got through that, although there were some mistakes

830
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: while he was in there as well, like you know,

831
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: but forgivable because he didn't die. But then they moved

832
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 2: him to the private hospital to recuperate, and then that

833
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: is where he didn't receive his medication. He's only stroke

834
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: medication for the entire eight days that he was there,

835
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: because it wasn't written down. And then Dad had a

836
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 2: major stroke, and I just I just I just couldn't

837
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: believe that something so basic could occur. I just I

838
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: just felt, wow, you know, he'd recovered, he was doing well,

839
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: he was under their observation all that, and you didn't

840
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: give him his anti stroke medication. That's pretty basic anyway.

841
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: As a result of that, as a result of that,

842
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: I was pretty devastated by this fundamental error. There's this

843
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: fundament But of course I was to learn that there

844
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 2: were men any fundamental errors that were occurring, and before

845
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 2: I knew it, Dad was still dying. When people were nurses, doctors,

846
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: other patients were telling me their own terrible stories. Dad

847
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: hadn't even died when we were getting I'm so sorry,

848
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: you know your dad's here, and because they all knew

849
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 2: what had happened country town, so Dad did die. And

850
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 2: it was after that that I thought, really, why has

851
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: this occurred? Because there are really good people in those hospitals.

852
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: There are really good people trying very hard. You know,

853
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: nobody wakes up to go and do something terrible. I

854
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: get that, but I realized that the rural system was

855
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 2: broken beyond belief. But then I realized it'd been broken

856
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: for a long time. I'm just at the end of

857
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: a queue of terribleness. So I decided I should tell

858
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: the story, and I I did think about it, but

859
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 2: I thought, I ask other people to do this, so

860
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 2: I will tell my dad's story. I think it could

861
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: have been prevented. That's why I think Dad didn't have

862
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: to die that day. Yeah, So I told this story,

863
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 2: and of course got lots of other people with their

864
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: terrible stories as well. You know, ultimately, I'm not going

865
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 2: to compare terribleness, but I did think. I thank god

866
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 2: Dad was eighty eight and had some life, I guess,

867
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: but still, you know, my horror was it wasn't taken away.

868
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: So I told the story. The new South Wales Parliament

869
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 2: set up an inquiry into rural health and declared what

870
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: we all knew was appalling. Everything's terrible, you name it,

871
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: it's all terrible. Well it's still going on today. It's

872
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 2: still going on today. There were forty four recommendations of

873
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: change and the Government of today was behind all those changes,

874
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 2: said that was all happening. But really the rural health,

875
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: if it is a truth, if you live in a

876
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,959
Speaker 2: country town, and particularly out west I mean at least

877
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 2: on the coast, people there are doctors who were happy

878
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 2: to go and because people like the beach or whatever,

879
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 2: but you cannot get staff. I then did stories out

880
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:33,439
Speaker 2: Western it is that's almost a crime scene because of

881
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 2: the lack of staff, the way in which a meager

882
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 2: amount of people are expected to do, you know, an

883
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 2: enormous job. They're bringing in cleaners and gardeners to sit

884
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: with patients while they run to answer the phone or

885
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: to deal with somebody. Gary Jubil is just come in

886
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: because his seventy's finger or something.

887
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's just just is.

888
00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: A cycle of horror. And I don't know how. To me,

889
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 2: there seems to be an outrageous amount of money that's

890
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: already there. It's how it's being spent, is my very

891
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 2: humble view. And I wonder, I wonder how this can

892
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: keep going.

893
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: Well, it's good that you put the spotlight on it

894
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,959
Speaker 1: and highlight, but yeah, quite often I see where there's

895
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: situations that are bad. Light that you get the initial

896
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: response from the politicians and you get the recommendations, but

897
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 1: it's about implementing the recommendations in a timely manner.

898
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 2: Well, and that it is such a big issue, and

899
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 2: you know it is. It's Australia wide. You know, there's

900
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 2: something like seven million Australians who live in the country

901
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: who require some sort of health and if they're not

902
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: expecting to have a heart transplant up the road, they're

903
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 2: just expecting that somebody might be able to a there

904
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: will be a doctor, be somebody might be able to

905
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 2: give them immediate treatment and see get them to you know,

906
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: somewhere else to get them the major treatment if it

907
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: is required. They're not expecting the world. They're just expecting something,

908
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 2: you know, and it's just I'm shocked, constantly shocked. It's

909
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 2: still going on. I know that. I think the news

910
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: corps and the Daily Telegraph have been absolutely on it

911
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: as well of recent times. And thank god, because I

912
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: think that is what the media is.

913
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: That is that is a role, a worthwhile role of

914
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: the media to put the spotlight on things like that.

915
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 2: We all pay taxes, and the people in the country

916
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 2: paid taxes just like the rest of us. And when

917
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 2: you've got paramedics having to make a priority about I

918
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: don't know which one I can go to.

919
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 1: Well, we do it. We all, we all pay those

920
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: taxes and health services. It should be the measure of

921
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: society and that it shouldn't discriminate because people are in

922
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: remote locations and as you said, you're not expecting the

923
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: heart transpan out west they come to the city. But

924
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: the basic stuff.

925
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 2: Just basic stuff, It would be good and people.

926
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: It becomes problematic because if people are under stress and

927
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: they over work constantly, they're going to make mistakes and

928
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: they'll probably more than likely leave the profession.

929
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: So they're just That's why I'm saying, you know, in

930
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 2: my dad's situation. That's a mistake, that's not a willful action. Well,

931
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: I didn't see it. I thought it was a bit

932
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 2: of an unforgivable mistake in many respects, but it was

933
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: a mistake. Nobody intends to cause harm in that profession.

934
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 2: But it's just it was a symptom of that which

935
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 2: is failing so many of us. And you know, if

936
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,720
Speaker 2: you're in the country driving out to have a nice time,

937
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 2: you know, out on a farm somewhere or the vineyards

938
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 2: or whatever, and you have the misfortune of having something

939
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: go wrong, well you might be introduced to the country

940
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 2: town hospital that doesn't actually have a dog.

941
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: Happens to our city facts.

942
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: You venture out beyond the Blue mountains and I worry.

943
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's something that's yeah, it does need to

944
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: be fixed. So the more people talk about it, the

945
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: more people push. But it's not about yeah, we've had

946
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: an inquiry and then recommendations unless they get implemented. And

947
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: I've seen that too many times with parliamentary inquiries.

948
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: I can't understand why politics gets so in the way

949
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 2: of this stuff. I mean, of course politics runs our lives,

950
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 2: I know, but you know, it's just a hard and

951
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,919
Speaker 2: fast fact that you know something needs to be done,

952
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 2: so let's do it.

953
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: Is I just said if I can't have too ill

954
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,879
Speaker 1: informed to have a political conversation. But I can't help

955
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: but think a lot of politicians are in there just

956
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: to feather their own nest and how they get re

957
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: elected the next time. And that shouldn't be what politics

958
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 1: is about. Politics should be doing the right thing. You're

959
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: representing the community.

960
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 2: Well, look at what I do know is that votes count.

961
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 2: If you're not getting much joy from your local member,

962
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: change your vote.

963
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a way of mate, mate.

964
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: But I think it's pretty hard for people to change votes.

965
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: They find it hard making that count. The Under Investigation

966
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: the show which I was very fortunate enough and we

967
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: worked quite a bit on that show together. I like

968
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: the concept of the show, and I just want to

969
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: ask you a question. Maybe I might take some notes here.

970
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: You got your head around so much information I saw

971
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: when we're filming and the detail of the information. Is

972
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: that something that you're just naturally good at because we

973
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: would be covering one particular thing and then pile a

974
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,919
Speaker 1: paper and you'd get your head around the next part.

975
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: What's where's that skill come from?

976
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: Oh, just research, just having to just I am that

977
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 2: person who needs to know it all. Unfortunately, I'm grateful

978
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: for the research that's done, but I need to be

979
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 2: able to see the paper that you got that from,

980
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 2: or I need to be able to re and I

981
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 2: need to know the answers to a whole lot of

982
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 2: stuff as best I can. I go through all those

983
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: police documents and try and make sense of every bit

984
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: of information when we get down to doing those episodes,

985
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 2: in particular, because a lot of them were, you know,

986
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 2: from the past, and there was quite a lot of

987
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 2: information out there and we were trying to, as you know,

988
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 2: bring it forward new information. I just I don't feel

989
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 2: good if I don't think I've covered it well that

990
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 2: I you know, I before I came here, I reread

991
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: my book. Now that sounds ridiculous, but it was like,

992
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: oh gosh, I've got to remember what did I say?

993
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 2: You know, that's just me. I couldn't come here without

994
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 2: being ready as best I could.

995
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: As best you could. Well, you've done pretty good. I

996
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: think it's gone pretty ridiculous.

997
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 2: I did write it.

998
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: But I know what you're saying. I've been inter viewed

999
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: about the book and you write it, and I think

1000
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 1: you get to the point where you've written the book

1001
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 1: and you're so tired of the effort that goes into

1002
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: writing the book, you just sort of push.

1003
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: And also, I'm writing another book, not about me, but

1004
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 2: I write another book, and my head's in that book,

1005
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 2: so you know, I do. There's a whole lot of

1006
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: information I'm shifting. But anyway, yes, I must, I must.

1007
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: But that that is that is like we talk and

1008
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: you've made some jokes about your career and you've been fortunate,

1009
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: but my observation of it lives and picked up on

1010
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: a bit of it working with you. But also just

1011
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: the way that you carry yourself, you get on with people,

1012
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: and that in a ruthless industry, it's not bad to

1013
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: just get on with people because no one. They mightn't

1014
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: agree with what you did or whatever, but they can't

1015
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 1: say a bad Yeah, I'm sure there's.

1016
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 2: Some people way No, I think fundamentally, you know, I

1017
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 2: like people, you like people. I like people. I think

1018
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: most people are good people. You may not agree with

1019
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 2: everything they do or say, but ultimately I like people,

1020
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 2: and I come with good will. I don't come. I'm

1021
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: happy to have my mind changed too by the way

1022
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: I might feel like I'm not sure about you and

1023
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 2: then come away I do feel good about you. I'm

1024
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 2: happy to give people the benefit of the dubt. I

1025
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: think that's not a bad place to be. Yeah.

1026
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: Well we might wrap it up here, Liz, but I've

1027
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: got to go. This is awkward. Okay, this is life. Yes, Liz,

1028
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: the time we've run there. Okay, I'm Gary Jubilin, I'm

1029
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: Liz Hayes, and this is I Catch Killers. Can we

1030
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 1: finish with that? Sure, I'll do it first. I'm Gary Jubilin.

1031
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: And I'm Liz Hayes. This is I Catch Killers with

1032
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: Gary Jubilin.

1033
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: Thank you. It's been a lot of fun, Liz. All

1034
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: the best for you whatever you're doing. I'm sure. I

1035
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: know you're busy, you're doing lots of stuff, but yeah,

1036
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: you're a pleasure to work with and it's great avenue

1037
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: on here.

1038
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming in, No, thank you was my pleasure. Actually,

1039
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: thank you.

1040
00:58:52,360 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: Cheers.