WEBVTT - Why is Australia going soft on settler sanctions?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to 7am. Last week,

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<v Speaker 1>countries including the UK, Canada and France announced plans to

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<v Speaker 1>restrict trade with Israeli settlements in the West Bank. In

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<v Speaker 1>the past, Australia has joined its overseas allies in actions

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<v Speaker 1>on Israel. This time, it's different, with Foreign Affairs Minister

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<v Speaker 1>Penny Wong saying Australia isn't considering joining the ban.

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<v Speaker 2>So why not?

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<v Speaker 1>Today, Commissioner on the UN's Commission of Inquiry into the

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<v Speaker 1>Occupied Palestinian Territories and Israel, Chris Sidoti, on Australia's responsibilities

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<v Speaker 1>and its failures. It's Thursday, September 17.

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<v Speaker 3>The British government agrees that there is ethnic cleansing of

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<v Speaker 3>Palestinians in areas of the West Bank. perpetrated by settler terrorists.

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<v Speaker 1>So Chris, Britain, France, Canada, they've all announced new restrictions

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<v Speaker 1>on Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

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<v Speaker 3>Today I announced that the official view of the British

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<v Speaker 3>government is that the occupation is unlawful.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me to begin with what it is that they've

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<v Speaker 1>actually agreed to do and the significance of this.

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<v Speaker 4>The most significant thing they've agreed to do is to

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<v Speaker 4>put a sanction on or prohibit trade with the settlements themselves.

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<v Speaker 3>I do not believe the British people want us supporting

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<v Speaker 3>the occupation by accepting products from settlements in our shops

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<v Speaker 3>and supermarkets. So I can announce today that we will

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<v Speaker 3>introduce an import ban on goods from illegal settlements in

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<v Speaker 3>the occupied territories.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a very important step. The International Court of Justice

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<v Speaker 4>said more than two years ago that all states have

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<v Speaker 4>obligations under international law to end all aid or assistance

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<v Speaker 4>to the expansion or maintenance of Israeli settlements.

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<v Speaker 5>The court affirms, as it did in its whole advisory opinion,

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<v Speaker 5>that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East

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<v Speaker 5>Jerusalem and the regime associated with them have been established

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<v Speaker 5>and are being maintained in violation of international law.

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<v Speaker 4>And so this is a belated response to that. There

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<v Speaker 4>are additional measures that they're taking as well, including sanctioning

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<v Speaker 4>more individuals. But the most significant thing is the prohibition

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<v Speaker 4>on trade with the settlements.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you say that this is a belated response,

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<v Speaker 1>but what has triggered it?

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<v Speaker 2>Why now?

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<v Speaker 1>What's happened in the West Bank that's pushed these governments

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<v Speaker 1>to this point?

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<v Speaker 4>I think that the triggering events have been the escalation

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<v Speaker 4>of settler violence over the last eight months.

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<v Speaker 6>Footage filmed from the family compound shows young settlers beating

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<v Speaker 6>on the gate with clubs.

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<v Speaker 4>It's been getting worse progressively since September 2023, so over

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<v Speaker 4>the last three years. But particularly this year, it's become

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<v Speaker 4>extremely serious. Settlers are working hand in glove with the

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<v Speaker 4>Israeli military.

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<v Speaker 6>Soldiers stroll up and gently move them away. From inside,

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<v Speaker 6>a woman screams at the settlers to leave as they

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<v Speaker 6>smash the gate.

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<v Speaker 4>The military either stands back and lets the settlers loose

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<v Speaker 4>on Palestinian villagers and villagers, men, women and children. Or alternatively,

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<v Speaker 4>the military actually intervenes on the side of the settlers.

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<v Speaker 6>The soldiers standing beside them make no attempt to question,

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<v Speaker 6>detain or even confiscate their clubs.

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<v Speaker 4>There have been many incidents where settlers have been attacking villagers.

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<v Speaker 4>The villagers have called for assistance. And when the military

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<v Speaker 4>has come, instead of protecting the villages from the settlers,

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<v Speaker 4>they've attacked the villages.

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<v Speaker 6>As Israeli forces fire live rounds and stun grenades and

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<v Speaker 6>launch tear gas canisters into the fields, setting them ablaze.

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<v Speaker 6>From the roof, we watch a dozen settler vehicles drive

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<v Speaker 6>freely out of the village.

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<v Speaker 4>So this close relationship between the settlers and the military

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<v Speaker 4>and the increase in killings by both has been the

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<v Speaker 4>event that has provoked these 12 states into finally taking action.

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<v Speaker 1>And Australia is not one of these 12 states. Tell

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<v Speaker 1>me a bit about the Australian government's response.

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<v Speaker 4>I have no way of understanding the Australian government's response.

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<v Speaker 4>They flip-flop all over the place. The foreign minister has

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<v Speaker 4>been saying repeatedly in recent years, we act in conjunction

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<v Speaker 4>with our international partners. And that was the excuse given

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<v Speaker 4>for Australia's delay in recognising the state of Palestine. When

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<v Speaker 4>it finally did so, a little over a year ago,

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<v Speaker 4>it did so in conjunction with its international partners, the

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<v Speaker 4>very states that are now imposing these sanctions on the settlements.

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<v Speaker 2>We are working with the international community towards the UN

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<v Speaker 2>meeting in September in relation to a pathway to two states.

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<v Speaker 4>And yet this time the Foreign Minister has said that

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<v Speaker 4>we will not be acting in concert with our international partners.

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<v Speaker 2>Today I can announce Australia is pursuing further targeted measures

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<v Speaker 2>in coordination with international partners to deter illegal settlements and

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<v Speaker 2>settler violence. Australia is not at this time pursuing a

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<v Speaker 2>blanket-style import ban.

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<v Speaker 4>Now she hasn't explained why this change of policy has occurred,

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<v Speaker 4>why it's seen as desirable now or even necessary now.

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<v Speaker 4>And similarly, the reason that she gave for Australia's position

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<v Speaker 4>is that we are worried about unintended consequences.

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<v Speaker 2>We have concerns about the implementation of a blanket ban

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<v Speaker 2>and unintended consequences for Australian businesses, for Palestinians and for Israelis.

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<v Speaker 4>But again, no explanation. For years, the government has been

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<v Speaker 4>saying that it would take no action in relation to

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<v Speaker 4>trade with settlements because there was so little Australian trade

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<v Speaker 4>with the settlements. And now the minister is concerned about

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<v Speaker 4>the impact on Australian business. You can't have it both ways.

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<v Speaker 4>You can't say there's virtually no trade on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 4>and yet we're worried about the impact on Australian business.

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<v Speaker 4>And what is the impact on Palestinians and Israelis that

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<v Speaker 4>the minister is so worried about? My concern is that

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<v Speaker 4>we are getting no explanations for Australian government policy, particularly

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<v Speaker 4>changes in policy, when our international partners, the traditional partners,

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<v Speaker 4>are acting and we're refusing to do so.

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<v Speaker 1>And Australia has said that targeted measures are a better

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<v Speaker 1>way to approach this. We have already sanctioned individual settlers,

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<v Speaker 1>organisations and Israeli ministers. So what have those sanctions achieved?

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<v Speaker 4>Individual sanctions are important. I don't minimise their significance at all.

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<v Speaker 4>We've sanctioned two Israeli ministers, only two, but at least

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<v Speaker 4>we have sanctioned two. We've sanctioned a number of individual

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<v Speaker 4>settlers and who are identified as the most extreme of

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<v Speaker 4>the settlers. We've also imposed sanctions on a couple of

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<v Speaker 4>settlement organisations, but not many. Now, I see that as important,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's not the whole story, nor is it even

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<v Speaker 4>the most effective story. There is a need to sanction

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<v Speaker 4>the system and not just isolated individuals. We need to

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<v Speaker 4>strike at the very basis upon which the settlements are

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<v Speaker 4>maintained and and expanded. This is what the International Court

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<v Speaker 4>of Justice said we have an obligation to do. Certainly

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<v Speaker 4>the settlement project itself has the strong, vocal, explicit support

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<v Speaker 4>with financial backing from the state of Israel. There is

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<v Speaker 4>no doubt about that.

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<v Speaker 7>We will continue to build a fulfilling Jewish reality. This

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<v Speaker 7>reality definitively buries the idea of a Palestinian state simply

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<v Speaker 7>because there is nothing to recognise and no one to recognise.

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<v Speaker 4>And so sanctioning at an institutional or systemic level is

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<v Speaker 4>critical to having an impact on the state of Israel

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<v Speaker 4>and its policy.

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<v Speaker 1>Still to come is politics behind Australia's softer stance. As

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned, until a few months ago, Australia was acting

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<v Speaker 1>alongside Britain and France and Canada in these coordinated sanctions

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<v Speaker 1>against violent settlers and settlement-linked entities. So what do you

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<v Speaker 1>see that's changed here?

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<v Speaker 4>Not just coordinating sanctions against individuals, but we acted jointly

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<v Speaker 4>with the United Kingdom, France, Canada and many other states

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<v Speaker 4>to On a number of occasions, in relation to the

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<v Speaker 4>recognition of the state of Palestine, in relation to voting

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<v Speaker 4>patterns in the United Nations, General Assembly, in the Human

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<v Speaker 4>Rights Council and other UN forums, in joint statements that

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<v Speaker 4>have been made repeatedly over the last three years in particular.

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<v Speaker 4>So what's changed is that we are no longer doing

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<v Speaker 4>that and we haven't explained why. And that's a very

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<v Speaker 4>significant change in policy from the Australian government.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmm.

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<v Speaker 1>How much of Australia's reluctance here do you think is

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<v Speaker 1>being driven by domestic politics? Obviously, since the Bondi attack,

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<v Speaker 1>Labor has been under enormous pressure of anti-Semitism. We've just

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<v Speaker 1>been through months of the Royal Commission. Do you think

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<v Speaker 1>that's made the government more resistant to taking any stronger action?

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<v Speaker 4>Certainly, many commentators, political commentators who are far better informed

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<v Speaker 4>than I am about the thinking in the Australian government,

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<v Speaker 4>have expressed the view that that's the case. Many Australian

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<v Speaker 4>academic experts and non-government organisations have said the same thing.

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<v Speaker 4>All I can say is that I simply do not

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<v Speaker 4>know because the government has not explicitly itself. I can't

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<v Speaker 4>say what's motivating this. Perhaps it's domestic politics, but that's

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<v Speaker 4>not what the minister is saying or what the prime

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<v Speaker 4>minister is saying, and it's impossible to know what they're

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<v Speaker 4>thinking and why.

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<v Speaker 1>How concerned are you by that lack of transparency?

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<v Speaker 4>As an Australian, I'm very concerned. There needs to be

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<v Speaker 4>transparency from government. We have an elected government. They are

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<v Speaker 4>accountable to the Australian people. And we can't hold them

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<v Speaker 4>to account unless we know what's going on. So I'm

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<v Speaker 4>very concerned as an Australian citizen. As a commissioner on

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<v Speaker 4>a UN commission of inquiry, I look for accountability and

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<v Speaker 4>transparency from all states in relation to the situation in

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<v Speaker 4>Palestine and Israel. And we criticise states that are not transparent.

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<v Speaker 4>I have to criticise the Australian government on that basis

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<v Speaker 4>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's another case where Australia has demanded action from

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<v Speaker 1>Israel and hasn't got it. That's the case of Australian

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<v Speaker 1>aid worker Zomi Francom, who was killed in an Israeli

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<v Speaker 1>airstrike on a World Central kitchen convoy that was in

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<v Speaker 1>Gaza last year. Where has that case ended up?

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<v Speaker 4>Again, at the moment, it's in some kind of a

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<v Speaker 4>no-man's land. The minister has said that she's criticised the

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<v Speaker 4>Israeli government She's consulting with Zomi Francom's family.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd just like it to be resolved as soon as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to be doing the rounds on her

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<v Speaker 1>anniversary next year in the exact same position.

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<v Speaker 4>She said that she will take further action following consultation.

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<v Speaker 4>There's no indication at this stage as to where that

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<v Speaker 4>consultation is up to or when any announcement of further

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<v Speaker 4>action will be taken. So I'm looking for that and

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<v Speaker 4>I'm looking forward to that.

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<v Speaker 2>Today I called in Ambassador... Hillel Newman, the Israeli ambassador

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<v Speaker 2>to Australia. And I made clear to him Australia's views,

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<v Speaker 2>that Israel's decision falls far short of the accountability we expect.

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<v Speaker 4>I indicated at the time that the Israeli ambassador in

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<v Speaker 4>Australia was so cavalier in dismissing Australian concerns that he

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<v Speaker 4>should be sent home.

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<v Speaker 2>One must also understand that not every case where someone

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<v Speaker 2>dies is casualty.

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<v Speaker 5>It means that there's criminal liability.

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<v Speaker 2>One cannot attack findings of a court if the findings

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<v Speaker 2>are not suitable to one's political agenda.

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<v Speaker 4>He certainly is not a fit person to be representing

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<v Speaker 4>any state in Australia where he seeks to interfere in

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<v Speaker 4>our domestic affairs and constantly denigrates Australian citizens. He should

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<v Speaker 4>be sent home. But except for calling him in and

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<v Speaker 4>having a chat to him, the minister hasn't done anything

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<v Speaker 4>in relation to this unfit person. And she hasn't announced

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<v Speaker 4>any other action that should be taken. It needs to

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<v Speaker 4>be taken. It's been suggested that this case should now

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<v Speaker 4>be the subject of an independent international investigation in conjunction

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<v Speaker 4>with the United Kingdom and Canada and other states whose

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<v Speaker 4>citizens were killed in that attack on the humanitarian convoy.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's a good idea. Certainly, given the failure

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<v Speaker 4>of the Israeli authorities to properly investigate these killings, there

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<v Speaker 4>is a need for an independent investigation of the kind

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<v Speaker 4>that has been sought. But again, the minister has not

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<v Speaker 4>made an announcement yet to that effect.

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<v Speaker 1>So if Israel continues expanding settlements and refuses Australia's demands

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<v Speaker 1>for accountability over Sammy Francom, what leverage do you think

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<v Speaker 1>Australia is actually prepared to use? Do you see the

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<v Speaker 1>Australian government being pushed into taking a stronger position?

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<v Speaker 4>It should be pushed by domestic pressure. But the principal

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<v Speaker 4>reason for being more active is international law. And here

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<v Speaker 4>I think the Australian government falls far short. There are

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<v Speaker 4>many practical steps that can be taken that will comply

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<v Speaker 4>with our obligations under international law as set out by

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<v Speaker 4>the International Court of Justice. We should be banning all

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<v Speaker 4>two-way military-related trade with Israel. The government repeatedly says that

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<v Speaker 4>there is a ban on weapons and ammunition. That's not

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<v Speaker 4>good enough. While we continue to provide F-35 parts manufactured

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<v Speaker 4>in Australia, provide them to the Israeli military and the

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<v Speaker 4>F-35s have been used for the saturation bombing of Gaza,

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<v Speaker 4>we are doing the wrong thing in law and ethically.

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<v Speaker 4>We should be stopping all two-way trade, including the import

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<v Speaker 4>of Israeli surveillance technology. They're very good at producing surveillance

0:14:30.650 --> 0:14:33.790
<v Speaker 4>technology and they use it all the time against Palestinians.

0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.520
<v Speaker 4>If we are purchasing that from the Israeli government or

0:14:37.580 --> 0:14:43.170
<v Speaker 4>from Israeli private manufacturers, we are subsidising research, development and

0:14:43.210 --> 0:14:48.490
<v Speaker 4>production of technology that can be used against Palestinians. We

0:14:48.510 --> 0:14:52.430
<v Speaker 4>should be upgrading our representation to the state of Palestine.

0:14:53.030 --> 0:14:56.140
<v Speaker 4>We have recognised Palestine, but we have not established an embassy.

0:14:57.300 --> 0:14:59.620
<v Speaker 4>We should have an embassy in Tel Aviv and we

0:14:59.660 --> 0:15:02.900
<v Speaker 4>should have an embassy to the Palestinian Authority as well.

0:15:03.660 --> 0:15:06.920
<v Speaker 4>We should certainly be banning all trade in goods and

0:15:06.980 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 4>services with the settlements.

0:15:09.820 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 2>We should be.

0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:16.320
<v Speaker 4>Stopping the practice whereby Australian taxpayers indirectly fund those settlements.

0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.840
<v Speaker 4>There are Australian organisations registered as charities that collect money

0:15:21.900 --> 0:15:26.660
<v Speaker 4>in Australia and provide them to Israeli organisations that fund

0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:31.250
<v Speaker 4>those settlements. And Australian donations to those charities are tax deductible.

0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:37.460
<v Speaker 4>That means, Ruby, that you and I are subsidising the

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.430
<v Speaker 4>money that is going to the settlements through providing tax

0:15:40.470 --> 0:15:45.390
<v Speaker 4>deductibility for those donations. We should be investigating anyone who

0:15:45.630 --> 0:15:48.210
<v Speaker 4>is of military age and has served in the Israeli

0:15:48.230 --> 0:15:52.170
<v Speaker 4>military in Gaza over the last three years if they

0:15:52.310 --> 0:15:56.750
<v Speaker 4>come to Australia. And that applies particularly to Australian citizens

0:15:57.250 --> 0:16:00.360
<v Speaker 4>who are joint citizens of and return to Australia after

0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.150
<v Speaker 4>serving with the Israeli military. They must be treated as suspects.

0:16:04.290 --> 0:16:07.810
<v Speaker 4>Our commission of inquiry has found that the Israeli military

0:16:07.890 --> 0:16:11.270
<v Speaker 4>has committed the crime of genocide, war crimes and crimes

0:16:11.310 --> 0:16:15.100
<v Speaker 4>against humanity in Gaza. And so anybody who has served

0:16:15.150 --> 0:16:18.640
<v Speaker 4>in Gaza with the Israeli military must be considered a suspect.

0:16:19.340 --> 0:16:22.880
<v Speaker 4>And we should also prohibit Australians from serving with foreign

0:16:22.900 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 4>military forces. We prohibit that in relation to non-state armed

0:16:28.070 --> 0:16:31.900
<v Speaker 4>groups But we don't prohibit that in relation to militaries,

0:16:32.460 --> 0:16:35.320
<v Speaker 4>and we should do so. So these are all very

0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:40.320
<v Speaker 4>practical steps that are easily taken, that comply with Australia's

0:16:40.380 --> 0:16:44.830
<v Speaker 4>international legal obligations, and for which there is no excuse

0:16:44.890 --> 0:16:46.170
<v Speaker 4>whatsoever not to take.

0:16:48.630 --> 0:16:50.250
<v Speaker 1>Chris, thank you so much for your time.

0:16:50.630 --> 0:16:51.070
<v Speaker 2>Thanks, Ruby.

0:16:51.090 --> 0:16:52.080
<v Speaker 4>It's good to talk to you.

0:17:06.460 --> 0:17:10.020
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Greens Senator David Shoebridge says Labor

0:17:10.060 --> 0:17:13.060
<v Speaker 1>has turned away from the minor party's offer of alternative

0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:17.740
<v Speaker 1>solutions to Australia's migration program. Tony Burke will announce Labor's

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.719
<v Speaker 1>highly anticipated migration overhaul today, a month after he was

0:17:21.790 --> 0:17:25.609
<v Speaker 1>forced to postpone a planned address. Shoebridge says Labor is

0:17:25.670 --> 0:17:28.609
<v Speaker 1>not engaging with the Greens' offers to support targets based

0:17:28.670 --> 0:17:32.350
<v Speaker 1>on universities, business and family needs and reduce temporary visa

0:17:32.390 --> 0:17:35.409
<v Speaker 1>numbers by funding extra processing for people waiting on their

0:17:35.430 --> 0:17:39.840
<v Speaker 1>permanent visas. And FBI Director Kash Patel has been grilled

0:17:39.900 --> 0:17:42.619
<v Speaker 1>by the US Senate for nearly five hours over his

0:17:42.660 --> 0:17:47.320
<v Speaker 1>controversial management of the agency, including the ousting of experienced agents.

0:17:47.859 --> 0:17:50.879
<v Speaker 1>Patel suggested that the scope of the firings had been overblown,

0:17:51.350 --> 0:17:54.950
<v Speaker 1>saying many agents had retired. He also refused to pledge

0:17:54.990 --> 0:17:59.250
<v Speaker 1>the FBI wouldn't interfere in midterm elections. I'm Ruby Jones.

0:17:59.430 --> 0:18:00.110
<v Speaker 1>This is 7am.

0:18:00.130 --> 0:18:01.190
<v Speaker 6>Thanks for listening.

0:18:06.270 --> 0:18:06.330
<v Speaker 5>You