1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appoch Production. 2 00:00:14,721 --> 00:00:17,121 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host, 3 00:00:17,201 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Let's talk about a. 4 00:00:19,681 --> 00:00:21,121 Speaker 3: Murder mystery Today. 5 00:00:21,641 --> 00:00:25,281 Speaker 2: August third, nineteen ninety eight, a small businessman in the 6 00:00:25,321 --> 00:00:29,121 Speaker 2: motor trade, Gianni John Ferlan, was on his way to 7 00:00:29,161 --> 00:00:32,601 Speaker 2: work in Melbourne's North. The forty eight year old was 8 00:00:32,641 --> 00:00:36,761 Speaker 2: driving his white Suberu Liberty sedan north along Lawrenceon Avenue 9 00:00:37,321 --> 00:00:39,161 Speaker 2: near Merlinston Railway station. 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:41,361 Speaker 3: When it exploded. 11 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,321 Speaker 2: The force of the explosion killed John instantly, catapaulting his 12 00:00:47,441 --> 00:00:51,521 Speaker 2: vehicle fifteen meters down the road, shattering nearby shop windows 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: and spraying debris over three hundred meters away. 14 00:00:54,961 --> 00:00:57,361 Speaker 3: The power of the blast breaking windows of houses and 15 00:00:57,401 --> 00:00:59,121 Speaker 3: shops along the quiet street. 16 00:00:59,681 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: But miraculously nobody else was physically injured. At first, it 17 00:01:04,641 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: was thought to be an accident, an exploding LPG tank perhaps, 18 00:01:09,041 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: but Furlin's car didn't run on gas. He'd been killed 19 00:01:13,601 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: with a huge car bomb. A deadly car bombing in 20 00:01:16,761 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: Melbourne's North remains one of Australia's most baffling unsolved mysteries. 21 00:01:22,321 --> 00:01:26,121 Speaker 2: That murder is still unsolved all these years later. Victoria 22 00:01:26,161 --> 00:01:29,801 Speaker 2: Police have recently increased a one hundred thousand dollars reward 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 2: to one million dollars for information about who was responsible. 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,681 Speaker 4: Senior police say they're refusing to give up until those 25 00:01:37,761 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 4: responsible are brought to justice. 26 00:01:40,881 --> 00:01:45,041 Speaker 2: In twenty eleven, Arson and Explosive detective Tina Kemp reviewed 27 00:01:45,041 --> 00:01:47,641 Speaker 2: the case and knows more about it than anyone else 28 00:01:47,961 --> 00:01:50,641 Speaker 2: who wasn't involved in it. It's a case that she 29 00:01:50,641 --> 00:01:53,361 Speaker 2: can't let go, and I'm pleased to welcome her into 30 00:01:53,401 --> 00:01:54,881 Speaker 2: the real crime studio, can I? 31 00:01:54,961 --> 00:01:55,241 Speaker 3: Tina? 32 00:01:56,281 --> 00:01:57,681 Speaker 1: Adam? How are you good? 33 00:01:57,721 --> 00:01:58,081 Speaker 3: Thanks? 34 00:01:58,281 --> 00:02:00,121 Speaker 2: Of all the cases you covered in your career, this 35 00:02:00,201 --> 00:02:02,641 Speaker 2: one I think is the one that you've always felt 36 00:02:02,801 --> 00:02:05,641 Speaker 2: was left incomplete, correct. 37 00:02:05,841 --> 00:02:09,561 Speaker 4: Yeah, there are so many more avenues of inquiry to 38 00:02:09,601 --> 00:02:12,441 Speaker 4: cover some of the bases. It's just one of those 39 00:02:12,441 --> 00:02:15,681 Speaker 4: ones that doesn't have a clear motive, and that's been 40 00:02:15,921 --> 00:02:17,561 Speaker 4: really tricky to navigate through that. 41 00:02:18,161 --> 00:02:18,361 Speaker 3: Yeah. 42 00:02:18,361 --> 00:02:20,601 Speaker 2: I think you once said that it was like being 43 00:02:20,641 --> 00:02:24,281 Speaker 2: given a book without the final chapters. 44 00:02:24,281 --> 00:02:27,481 Speaker 4: Correct, And even some of the chapters in between are 45 00:02:27,481 --> 00:02:30,441 Speaker 4: missing as well, and you just have to find which Well, 46 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 4: sometimes you've given chapters are not even relevant, so you've 47 00:02:32,841 --> 00:02:34,921 Speaker 4: got to work out which ones belonging the book and 48 00:02:34,921 --> 00:02:38,161 Speaker 4: which ones don't even so. It's quite a bit to 49 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,001 Speaker 4: this one, but it's really interesting and I was thoroughly 50 00:02:42,401 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 4: engaged and enjoyed working on it, and at times I thought, God, 51 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 4: I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this is fabulous. 52 00:02:48,881 --> 00:02:50,481 Speaker 2: Yeah, it would have been nice if you were able 53 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,881 Speaker 2: to put some people behind bars. There's still a possibility 54 00:02:52,881 --> 00:02:55,801 Speaker 2: of it, because there are still suspects out there in 55 00:02:55,841 --> 00:03:00,041 Speaker 2: this murder, and it is a very tricky one because 56 00:03:01,161 --> 00:03:04,121 Speaker 2: the motive is not clear. John Ferlin was not an 57 00:03:04,201 --> 00:03:07,201 Speaker 2: underworld figure. He was a small businessman. He had his 58 00:03:07,281 --> 00:03:12,361 Speaker 2: normal range of disputes and issues with people, but nothing 59 00:03:12,401 --> 00:03:15,681 Speaker 2: that seemed to amount to a motive for murder. And 60 00:03:15,721 --> 00:03:18,081 Speaker 2: there is this sort of cast of characters we really 61 00:03:18,081 --> 00:03:20,841 Speaker 2: should work through before we get too much further. The 62 00:03:20,841 --> 00:03:23,881 Speaker 2: main suspect that you were presented with was a fellow 63 00:03:23,881 --> 00:03:28,561 Speaker 2: called Domenico Italiano, who was a half pied gangster from Carlton. 64 00:03:29,121 --> 00:03:32,121 Speaker 2: His grandfather had been reputed to be the head of 65 00:03:32,121 --> 00:03:35,961 Speaker 2: the Italian mafia back in the fifties, but Domenico was 66 00:03:36,001 --> 00:03:37,761 Speaker 2: not of the same milk whatsoever. He was more of 67 00:03:37,801 --> 00:03:40,881 Speaker 2: a con man and he was operating what I believed 68 00:03:40,921 --> 00:03:44,041 Speaker 2: to be illegal car raffles back in the day where 69 00:03:44,601 --> 00:03:47,081 Speaker 2: there would raffle a car in a bogus raffle, and 70 00:03:47,201 --> 00:03:49,361 Speaker 2: really it was a way of selling a vehicle to 71 00:03:49,481 --> 00:03:52,961 Speaker 2: somebody at a cheap price and pretend that it was 72 00:03:53,081 --> 00:03:54,761 Speaker 2: the winnings of a raffle. 73 00:03:54,761 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 3: Have I got that right? 74 00:03:56,521 --> 00:03:58,761 Speaker 4: Yes, from I didn't delve in too much into the 75 00:03:58,801 --> 00:04:02,281 Speaker 4: raffle side of things that had already been written off earlier. 76 00:04:02,841 --> 00:04:07,121 Speaker 4: But in your previous inquiry so that you pinpointed that 77 00:04:07,241 --> 00:04:10,441 Speaker 4: John had actually been offered a car in amongst that 78 00:04:10,761 --> 00:04:14,121 Speaker 4: to pay a debt back to Dominica Taliano. So that 79 00:04:14,201 --> 00:04:17,201 Speaker 4: sort of changes things in that respect as well. 80 00:04:17,321 --> 00:04:19,801 Speaker 2: Because John had a car yard next to his house 81 00:04:19,801 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: there on Sydney Road in Coburg, and Italiano was leasing 82 00:04:24,001 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: that car yard, and of course he fell behind in 83 00:04:26,361 --> 00:04:29,721 Speaker 2: the rent and there was a dispute over that. And 84 00:04:30,161 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: the theory that you investigated was that this bogus raffle 85 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,361 Speaker 2: was going to be he was going to become the 86 00:04:36,401 --> 00:04:39,521 Speaker 2: winner John was in lieu of the rent that he owed, 87 00:04:39,921 --> 00:04:41,201 Speaker 2: at least Taliano owed. 88 00:04:42,601 --> 00:04:42,841 Speaker 1: Yes. 89 00:04:42,961 --> 00:04:45,961 Speaker 4: I believe that specific aspect was something that you uncovered 90 00:04:45,961 --> 00:04:48,561 Speaker 4: when you were looking at it yourself a while back. 91 00:04:48,801 --> 00:04:50,761 Speaker 4: We certainly did look at the raffles, and we looked 92 00:04:50,801 --> 00:04:53,481 Speaker 4: at the broken lease on the car yard next to 93 00:04:53,561 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 4: his place. 94 00:04:54,241 --> 00:04:55,121 Speaker 1: There was a whole. 95 00:04:55,001 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 4: Host of things that we did look at, and to me, 96 00:04:57,761 --> 00:05:00,801 Speaker 4: it seems with Dominique Taliano, it wasn't perhaps just the 97 00:05:00,841 --> 00:05:03,921 Speaker 4: one thing, but it was that Furlan had become a 98 00:05:03,921 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 4: bit of a thorn in his side in a number 99 00:05:05,641 --> 00:05:08,001 Speaker 4: of ways. He owed him money, you know, they'd broken Carli's, 100 00:05:08,001 --> 00:05:09,441 Speaker 4: he was trying to get another caryard. 101 00:05:09,921 --> 00:05:11,481 Speaker 1: Maybe that raffle came into it. 102 00:05:11,601 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 4: And yeah, so I think he'd just become a little 103 00:05:14,681 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 4: bit of thorny's side and thought that perhaps life was 104 00:05:17,641 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 4: easier for dominic if John Ferlan. 105 00:05:19,401 --> 00:05:21,281 Speaker 3: Wasn't in it, well if he killed him. 106 00:05:21,281 --> 00:05:22,961 Speaker 2: And I think that was the problem for police, that 107 00:05:23,241 --> 00:05:25,681 Speaker 2: none of these things seemed to amount to a substantial 108 00:05:25,761 --> 00:05:28,561 Speaker 2: enough motive for murder. And there were other issues apparently 109 00:05:28,601 --> 00:05:32,721 Speaker 2: that Ferlin had given up Italiano to fair trading over 110 00:05:32,761 --> 00:05:36,081 Speaker 2: these raffles, and also some other dodgy stuff that Italiana 111 00:05:36,161 --> 00:05:37,281 Speaker 2: was doing in the car trade. 112 00:05:38,401 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: Yes, that's correct, and John Ferlin had been charged and 113 00:05:41,481 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: find himself. I didn't think it was a massive amount, 114 00:05:43,641 --> 00:05:47,281 Speaker 4: maybe eight hundred dollar fine or something thereabouts. I think nineties. 115 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,281 Speaker 4: I'd have to go back to the file if I 116 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,161 Speaker 4: had it. In ninety six ninety seven thereabouts, it was 117 00:05:52,201 --> 00:05:54,961 Speaker 4: reported who particularly annoyed that others such as. 118 00:05:54,841 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: Italiano and other people were still. 119 00:05:57,161 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 4: Doing similar sort of things and getting away with it, 120 00:05:58,921 --> 00:06:01,441 Speaker 4: and that rubbed him the wrong way. So apparently became 121 00:06:01,561 --> 00:06:05,601 Speaker 4: quite a nuisance by ringing almost weekly or perhaps even 122 00:06:05,681 --> 00:06:10,601 Speaker 4: more to make complaints about these people, and subsequently charges. 123 00:06:10,281 --> 00:06:13,361 Speaker 1: Were laid or fines. There was one I'm aware of that. 124 00:06:13,361 --> 00:06:15,721 Speaker 4: Italiano had somebody else to take the fall for him 125 00:06:15,721 --> 00:06:17,601 Speaker 4: on that one, and that was worth about fifteen grand. 126 00:06:17,961 --> 00:06:20,841 Speaker 4: So we're talking, you know, late sort of ninety so 127 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,201 Speaker 4: that's a fair wack of money back then. And his 128 00:06:23,241 --> 00:06:27,001 Speaker 4: own company, Moldenfield Proprietary Limited, they were also fine. And 129 00:06:27,201 --> 00:06:29,321 Speaker 4: if you look through the list back then, there are 130 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,081 Speaker 4: a few companies that italianas associates were involved in those companies, 131 00:06:34,161 --> 00:06:38,121 Speaker 4: and so I think that's sort of another area as well. Well. 132 00:06:38,161 --> 00:06:40,401 Speaker 2: I try and you mentioned that Ferland was a thorn 133 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,641 Speaker 2: in the side of Italiano. I think Ferloon need though 134 00:06:44,641 --> 00:06:46,641 Speaker 2: he wasn't a crook, but he was a bit of hotthead, 135 00:06:46,721 --> 00:06:46,961 Speaker 2: wasn't he? 136 00:06:47,001 --> 00:06:47,921 Speaker 3: What sort of person was he? 137 00:06:49,001 --> 00:06:50,681 Speaker 4: My understanding was a bit of a hot head and 138 00:06:50,801 --> 00:06:55,281 Speaker 4: a hard businessman, very loyal to his friends. But you know, 139 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,281 Speaker 4: there might be some smallish kind of issues with he 140 00:06:58,361 --> 00:07:02,521 Speaker 4: might sell something that was reconditioned as perhaps better condition 141 00:07:02,641 --> 00:07:06,321 Speaker 4: or knewer than it was. You know, nothing overly massive 142 00:07:06,361 --> 00:07:08,121 Speaker 4: that wouldn't go on in a lot of those kind 143 00:07:08,161 --> 00:07:12,361 Speaker 4: of businesses. I did look into, and other investigators looked 144 00:07:12,361 --> 00:07:15,761 Speaker 4: into whether he did have some sort of criminal activities 145 00:07:15,801 --> 00:07:18,401 Speaker 4: going on. I know the registration of the vehicle that 146 00:07:18,481 --> 00:07:22,761 Speaker 4: he was killed while striving was registered in the country, 147 00:07:22,801 --> 00:07:24,881 Speaker 4: and it kind of seemed a very back door way 148 00:07:24,881 --> 00:07:27,441 Speaker 4: of getting it registered because it was an imported car 149 00:07:27,801 --> 00:07:30,801 Speaker 4: from Japan that shouldn't have been registered in Australia because 150 00:07:30,801 --> 00:07:33,961 Speaker 4: it didn't comply with the standards here. But somehow at 151 00:07:33,961 --> 00:07:37,641 Speaker 4: this country vic Rood's office, the number of the engine 152 00:07:37,641 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 4: the number vehicle identification number was entered with a number 153 00:07:41,161 --> 00:07:45,081 Speaker 4: of digits that suited Australia's system. But if it had 154 00:07:45,241 --> 00:07:47,961 Speaker 4: been entered in I think there were seventeen digits in 155 00:07:48,001 --> 00:07:49,961 Speaker 4: one or the other can't remember which way it went 156 00:07:50,041 --> 00:07:54,081 Speaker 4: now with nine digits were required, but he's had seventeen 157 00:07:54,161 --> 00:07:57,041 Speaker 4: or vice versa. So that ended up allowing the car 158 00:07:57,081 --> 00:07:58,841 Speaker 4: to be registered here when it really shouldn't been. It 159 00:07:58,841 --> 00:08:01,161 Speaker 4: should have only been used for parts. So then I 160 00:08:01,201 --> 00:08:03,201 Speaker 4: was looking at did he have a little bit of 161 00:08:03,201 --> 00:08:05,881 Speaker 4: a scam going with that kind of thing? He also 162 00:08:06,641 --> 00:08:09,721 Speaker 4: is a drugs involved I mean that's also always a 163 00:08:09,761 --> 00:08:11,881 Speaker 4: thing we look at, you know, are they importing drugs 164 00:08:11,921 --> 00:08:16,361 Speaker 4: inside these vehicles? Because dominicantly, Taliano and Ferlin used to 165 00:08:16,361 --> 00:08:18,961 Speaker 4: both be at the car auctions. They would see each 166 00:08:19,001 --> 00:08:22,001 Speaker 4: other at those sort of locations as well, so I thought, well, 167 00:08:22,041 --> 00:08:25,681 Speaker 4: are they up to something more that is behind the 168 00:08:25,681 --> 00:08:26,241 Speaker 4: scenes that we. 169 00:08:26,281 --> 00:08:28,881 Speaker 1: Just don't know about. But I could never really find. 170 00:08:28,721 --> 00:08:31,121 Speaker 4: That he was up to anything illegally in that way 171 00:08:31,241 --> 00:08:32,041 Speaker 4: that could have cost. 172 00:08:31,921 --> 00:08:34,161 Speaker 2: Him his life, because I think there was one avenue 173 00:08:34,161 --> 00:08:36,641 Speaker 2: of an inquiry where I know in Melbourne there was 174 00:08:36,641 --> 00:08:39,201 Speaker 2: a lot of heroin dealing going on through used car 175 00:08:39,601 --> 00:08:43,801 Speaker 2: lots where people would deliver heroin around Melbourne using cars 176 00:08:43,841 --> 00:08:45,441 Speaker 2: from lots, and I think that was looked at at 177 00:08:45,481 --> 00:08:47,761 Speaker 2: one moment, but it didn't seem to pan out. 178 00:08:48,321 --> 00:08:51,881 Speaker 4: Correct and also rebirthing vehicles that was pretty big back 179 00:08:51,921 --> 00:08:55,121 Speaker 4: then as well, stolen vehicles that would be altered and 180 00:08:56,081 --> 00:08:58,121 Speaker 4: you know, in a chop shop sort of thing, and 181 00:08:58,161 --> 00:09:00,721 Speaker 4: whether he had been involved in that sort of thing 182 00:09:00,761 --> 00:09:04,361 Speaker 4: as well, But we couldn't really establish anything like that. 183 00:09:04,481 --> 00:09:07,001 Speaker 1: So in the end, it seems that he was just 184 00:09:07,041 --> 00:09:08,441 Speaker 1: a small businessman. 185 00:09:08,121 --> 00:09:10,921 Speaker 4: That wouldn't be like anybody else that walks down the 186 00:09:10,961 --> 00:09:13,881 Speaker 4: street that you would probably meet not thinking twice about. 187 00:09:14,081 --> 00:09:16,281 Speaker 1: So that part is really puzzling. 188 00:09:15,841 --> 00:09:18,401 Speaker 4: The motive and whether it's just that whole mixed bag 189 00:09:18,441 --> 00:09:21,601 Speaker 4: of things that really annoyed Italio and getting focus on 190 00:09:21,801 --> 00:09:24,881 Speaker 4: him when if he was up to something dodgy himself. 191 00:09:24,801 --> 00:09:26,921 Speaker 1: He's not going to want attention from anybody. 192 00:09:27,601 --> 00:09:30,081 Speaker 2: And that was the challenge for investigators, wasn't it, Because 193 00:09:30,841 --> 00:09:37,121 Speaker 2: massive facts, some minor motivations, no conclusive evidence, so very 194 00:09:37,161 --> 00:09:39,921 Speaker 2: difficult to proceed. And when you look at the circumstances 195 00:09:39,921 --> 00:09:43,441 Speaker 2: of the bombing, the car had been parked at Ferlin's 196 00:09:43,441 --> 00:09:46,081 Speaker 2: house on Sydney Road, Coburg over the weekend while he'd 197 00:09:46,081 --> 00:09:50,241 Speaker 2: gone to Tasmania for fishing, so one would presume the 198 00:09:50,281 --> 00:09:52,761 Speaker 2: bomb was planted at that time. 199 00:09:53,881 --> 00:09:56,721 Speaker 4: I believe so they would have had easy access to 200 00:09:56,761 --> 00:09:59,481 Speaker 4: the vehicle at that point. Nobody was staying at the 201 00:09:59,481 --> 00:10:02,641 Speaker 4: house while John was in Tasmania, and there's a lane 202 00:10:02,681 --> 00:10:05,401 Speaker 4: way at the back of the house that I would 203 00:10:05,441 --> 00:10:07,601 Speaker 4: think would be fairly easy access to get over that. 204 00:10:08,041 --> 00:10:10,961 Speaker 4: And I'm aware that one of the back doors wasn't 205 00:10:11,001 --> 00:10:13,841 Speaker 4: locking properly either in the vehicle, so they wouldn't even 206 00:10:13,881 --> 00:10:16,641 Speaker 4: need to break in as such, they just try the doors. 207 00:10:16,841 --> 00:10:18,881 Speaker 4: And they had been doing surveillance, so maybe they might 208 00:10:18,881 --> 00:10:20,801 Speaker 4: have even been aware of some of that minor. 209 00:10:20,561 --> 00:10:24,481 Speaker 1: Detail as well, so they once so inside the yard. 210 00:10:24,641 --> 00:10:27,121 Speaker 4: The yard had a really high fence at the front 211 00:10:27,161 --> 00:10:28,721 Speaker 4: and still to this day as far as I know, 212 00:10:29,081 --> 00:10:32,001 Speaker 4: high fence, high gates or timber so you can't see through, 213 00:10:32,361 --> 00:10:34,841 Speaker 4: So they would have had a nice little protected area 214 00:10:35,041 --> 00:10:36,601 Speaker 4: from anybody. 215 00:10:36,121 --> 00:10:37,121 Speaker 1: Seeing what they were up to. 216 00:10:38,481 --> 00:10:41,201 Speaker 2: And there was a number of cigarette butts found at 217 00:10:41,201 --> 00:10:44,321 Speaker 2: the scene, which I believe that you discovered in the exhibits, 218 00:10:44,481 --> 00:10:47,401 Speaker 2: and I think they've been compared on DNA databases and 219 00:10:47,481 --> 00:10:50,521 Speaker 2: so forth and really haven't come up with any matches. 220 00:10:51,601 --> 00:10:52,361 Speaker 1: That's great. 221 00:10:52,361 --> 00:10:54,521 Speaker 4: Well, as far as I know, two of them have 222 00:10:54,681 --> 00:10:57,361 Speaker 4: John Fillin's profile were matched to two of them, and 223 00:10:57,441 --> 00:10:59,921 Speaker 4: maybe some partials on some of the other. And I 224 00:10:59,961 --> 00:11:03,081 Speaker 4: did request further testing, and I think Jeff Marr recently 225 00:11:03,161 --> 00:11:05,521 Speaker 4: mentioned that they were sort of being retested again, and 226 00:11:05,561 --> 00:11:08,241 Speaker 4: I had tried to and it might be that they 227 00:11:08,641 --> 00:11:11,441 Speaker 4: regularly do that run that through anyway on these sort 228 00:11:11,481 --> 00:11:15,481 Speaker 4: of major unsolves, but nothing of interest as far as. 229 00:11:15,441 --> 00:11:17,441 Speaker 1: Who might have been in the yard. But I had 230 00:11:17,481 --> 00:11:19,521 Speaker 1: always wanted to perhaps. 231 00:11:19,281 --> 00:11:21,921 Speaker 4: Put out a call, and you know, this is not 232 00:11:22,001 --> 00:11:24,681 Speaker 4: something that I'd run past the bosses as far as 233 00:11:25,401 --> 00:11:26,841 Speaker 4: put out a bit of a call to his friends 234 00:11:26,881 --> 00:11:29,801 Speaker 4: and family who would have been in the front yard smoking. 235 00:11:29,841 --> 00:11:31,721 Speaker 4: They knew that they were in the art smoking and 236 00:11:31,801 --> 00:11:34,761 Speaker 4: volunteer their DNA so that they could be identified at 237 00:11:34,801 --> 00:11:38,081 Speaker 4: least and not one hundred percent eliminated. They could be 238 00:11:38,081 --> 00:11:40,641 Speaker 4: involved who we don't know, but at least it might 239 00:11:40,721 --> 00:11:45,361 Speaker 4: narrow down who contributed to those cigarette butts on the ground, right. 240 00:11:45,401 --> 00:11:47,881 Speaker 2: And Jeff Marr was your senior sergeant back at Arsenal 241 00:11:47,881 --> 00:11:51,121 Speaker 2: and Explosives. He's now working at the Academy, still involved 242 00:11:51,121 --> 00:11:53,681 Speaker 2: in this case, helping out. And again it's one of 243 00:11:53,721 --> 00:11:56,481 Speaker 2: those cases that just defies solution. 244 00:11:56,601 --> 00:11:58,601 Speaker 3: It stays in people's minds. Now. 245 00:11:58,841 --> 00:12:01,641 Speaker 2: The interesting thing about the way the bomb is detonated 246 00:12:01,721 --> 00:12:04,441 Speaker 2: is I understand it was that it wasn't a timing device, 247 00:12:04,521 --> 00:12:08,001 Speaker 2: it wasn't a pressure device. It had to be detonated 248 00:12:08,361 --> 00:12:12,441 Speaker 2: manually with a line of sight. And there were two vehicles, 249 00:12:13,001 --> 00:12:17,161 Speaker 2: one red land cruise I believe or missing patrol that 250 00:12:17,281 --> 00:12:19,441 Speaker 2: was seen in the area before the day and on 251 00:12:19,521 --> 00:12:22,161 Speaker 2: the day, and there was a guy driving it who 252 00:12:22,161 --> 00:12:25,561 Speaker 2: had a very particular eagle tattoo on one forearm. This 253 00:12:25,721 --> 00:12:28,361 Speaker 2: was seen and I guess it was believed that this 254 00:12:28,401 --> 00:12:30,361 Speaker 2: one might have detonated the bomb. 255 00:12:31,321 --> 00:12:32,281 Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct. 256 00:12:32,281 --> 00:12:35,761 Speaker 4: And he does appear throughout the investigation and turns up 257 00:12:35,761 --> 00:12:38,761 Speaker 4: again after as far as the inquiries goes. He even 258 00:12:38,961 --> 00:12:43,081 Speaker 4: inserts himself into the whole inquiry by attending at St. 259 00:12:43,121 --> 00:12:45,801 Speaker 4: Kildo Police Complex, which was the headquarters for the crime 260 00:12:45,841 --> 00:12:49,441 Speaker 4: department back then. Yet very interesting character. I didn't get 261 00:12:49,481 --> 00:12:52,601 Speaker 4: to meet him, unfortunately. He committed suicide a few weeks 262 00:12:52,641 --> 00:12:56,481 Speaker 4: after his last contact with Jeff mar And he would 263 00:12:56,481 --> 00:13:00,561 Speaker 4: confess to all sorts of things then sometimes retract that. 264 00:13:00,681 --> 00:13:02,481 Speaker 4: But then if he did scratch around and have a 265 00:13:02,481 --> 00:13:05,721 Speaker 4: bit of a look to try and corroborate things. Sometimes 266 00:13:05,721 --> 00:13:08,241 Speaker 4: some of the most amazing things that he was confessing 267 00:13:08,241 --> 00:13:12,401 Speaker 4: to were actually real. I give you the main example 268 00:13:12,601 --> 00:13:15,441 Speaker 4: was he put his hand up for a bombing that 269 00:13:15,481 --> 00:13:18,241 Speaker 4: he did at a house in Flemington that I think 270 00:13:18,401 --> 00:13:21,881 Speaker 4: was probably requested or orchestrated by these same people. 271 00:13:21,601 --> 00:13:22,721 Speaker 1: Behind this bomb. 272 00:13:23,321 --> 00:13:25,961 Speaker 4: But he also someone very close to him had committed 273 00:13:25,961 --> 00:13:29,201 Speaker 4: a murder and he helped dispose of the body as 274 00:13:29,241 --> 00:13:33,401 Speaker 4: in this particular fellow, and he phoned police and said, 275 00:13:33,441 --> 00:13:36,001 Speaker 4: if you go out to this particular freeway on the 276 00:13:36,001 --> 00:13:38,481 Speaker 4: side of the freeway, you'll find a body. And in 277 00:13:38,521 --> 00:13:40,921 Speaker 4: the end they had to have a couple of looks 278 00:13:40,921 --> 00:13:43,161 Speaker 4: and they finally found it. He ended up getting charged 279 00:13:43,241 --> 00:13:45,961 Speaker 4: for well, the other person got charged with murder and 280 00:13:46,001 --> 00:13:48,201 Speaker 4: he got charged with helping dispose of the body. So 281 00:13:48,561 --> 00:13:51,281 Speaker 4: you can't just sort of dismiss any of his claims 282 00:13:51,321 --> 00:13:54,241 Speaker 4: because sometimes they were really good information. 283 00:13:55,041 --> 00:13:58,761 Speaker 2: You're talking about Philip Lander, also known as Philip Matthews, 284 00:13:59,281 --> 00:14:01,001 Speaker 2: and he was a young man I think he was 285 00:14:01,081 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: nineteen at the time or twenty when this car bomb detonated, 286 00:14:04,681 --> 00:14:07,001 Speaker 2: And you're right, it comes in two thousand and four 287 00:14:07,361 --> 00:14:10,841 Speaker 2: to the police unannounced and says I killed John Ferland 288 00:14:11,401 --> 00:14:14,321 Speaker 2: and this doesn't happen. A walk up start to a 289 00:14:14,361 --> 00:14:17,241 Speaker 2: confession like this just simply doesn't happen. And Jeff Maher 290 00:14:17,401 --> 00:14:21,241 Speaker 2: it was your boss, interviewed him and some parts of 291 00:14:21,281 --> 00:14:25,401 Speaker 2: his evidence were very compelling. Others were doubtful, and it 292 00:14:25,481 --> 00:14:28,921 Speaker 2: led them to overall have doubts about him. You were 293 00:14:28,961 --> 00:14:32,401 Speaker 2: reading about him in the file and when you mentioned 294 00:14:32,401 --> 00:14:34,961 Speaker 2: the murder there, of course, this was a murder committed 295 00:14:35,001 --> 00:14:40,201 Speaker 2: by his twin brother. Correct, Yes, so he ends up 296 00:14:40,241 --> 00:14:43,441 Speaker 2: giving up his twin brother for a murder. This boy 297 00:14:43,961 --> 00:14:45,241 Speaker 2: liked to confess. 298 00:14:45,921 --> 00:14:48,921 Speaker 4: And I don't know if that was something that he 299 00:14:48,961 --> 00:14:51,801 Speaker 4: would be involved with these things, but then he'd be 300 00:14:51,881 --> 00:14:54,161 Speaker 4: a little bit at odds with himself on what he'd 301 00:14:54,201 --> 00:14:55,441 Speaker 4: done and what to come clean. 302 00:14:55,761 --> 00:14:57,201 Speaker 1: It was with this one. 303 00:14:57,121 --> 00:14:59,521 Speaker 4: With John Ferlan's murder, it was like he wanted to 304 00:14:59,801 --> 00:15:01,961 Speaker 4: get it off his chest. And you know, I don't 305 00:15:02,001 --> 00:15:05,641 Speaker 4: know his motivation for committing suicide where this was part 306 00:15:05,681 --> 00:15:07,241 Speaker 4: of it and it was just the guilt factor and 307 00:15:07,361 --> 00:15:09,721 Speaker 4: maybe other things that he'd done. But I also think 308 00:15:09,881 --> 00:15:11,841 Speaker 4: he and his brother were raised in the school of 309 00:15:11,841 --> 00:15:13,721 Speaker 4: hard knocks, so that I think there's a lot of 310 00:15:13,761 --> 00:15:17,361 Speaker 4: demons in there. For him, and it's funny, but I 311 00:15:17,481 --> 00:15:19,201 Speaker 4: kind of got to like him a little bit, almost 312 00:15:19,241 --> 00:15:21,561 Speaker 4: like he was the underdog, which is kind of weird. 313 00:15:21,761 --> 00:15:25,241 Speaker 4: I've not really felt that towards anybody else that I've investigated, 314 00:15:25,361 --> 00:15:26,481 Speaker 4: or certainly. 315 00:15:26,161 --> 00:15:27,761 Speaker 1: That's got a criminal history like his. 316 00:15:28,481 --> 00:15:31,201 Speaker 4: But it was almost like I wanted him to sort 317 00:15:31,241 --> 00:15:33,841 Speaker 4: of be able to offload this and succeed. But you know, 318 00:15:33,881 --> 00:15:36,001 Speaker 4: already by the time I was anywhere near the file, 319 00:15:36,081 --> 00:15:36,841 Speaker 4: he was long gone. 320 00:15:38,961 --> 00:15:42,441 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because he does commit suicide weeks after 321 00:15:42,481 --> 00:15:45,001 Speaker 2: he turns up and kill or rode police headquarters, and 322 00:15:45,041 --> 00:15:48,881 Speaker 2: even the manner of his death if you're a conspiracy theorist, 323 00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:52,801 Speaker 2: could get you excited because he attaches a hose from 324 00:15:52,801 --> 00:15:57,041 Speaker 2: his car exhaust into the vehicle and gases himself like that, 325 00:15:57,441 --> 00:15:59,321 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, if you're a conspiracy theorist, as 326 00:15:59,361 --> 00:16:01,681 Speaker 2: I say, you might say, well, maybe he was killed 327 00:16:01,681 --> 00:16:04,841 Speaker 2: to cover up his confessions, to stop him giving more 328 00:16:04,881 --> 00:16:05,361 Speaker 2: d tale. 329 00:16:06,481 --> 00:16:08,681 Speaker 4: Yes, And that's something that would have been looked at 330 00:16:08,721 --> 00:16:11,681 Speaker 4: it at the time, given the involvement that he'd had 331 00:16:11,681 --> 00:16:14,321 Speaker 4: in this matter, and just is you know, in other 332 00:16:14,441 --> 00:16:16,721 Speaker 4: matters that he'd been involved in and the type of 333 00:16:16,721 --> 00:16:20,201 Speaker 4: people that he mixed with and mingled with. He could 334 00:16:20,281 --> 00:16:23,841 Speaker 4: easily have been the target of somebody, but there was 335 00:16:23,841 --> 00:16:28,081 Speaker 4: nothing established in that respect. It was a non suspicious 336 00:16:28,281 --> 00:16:30,641 Speaker 4: action that I believe he committed suicide. 337 00:16:31,361 --> 00:16:34,081 Speaker 2: Yeah, the toxicology didn't show any sedatives or anything else. 338 00:16:34,241 --> 00:16:37,281 Speaker 2: He might have been compelled to kill himself, not that. 339 00:16:37,281 --> 00:16:37,961 Speaker 1: I'm aware of. 340 00:16:38,121 --> 00:16:41,481 Speaker 4: I did read the autopsy results in that, but I 341 00:16:41,561 --> 00:16:45,441 Speaker 4: don't recall anything other than just the whole situation with 342 00:16:45,521 --> 00:16:45,921 Speaker 4: the car. 343 00:16:46,481 --> 00:16:46,681 Speaker 3: Yeah. 344 00:16:46,721 --> 00:16:50,321 Speaker 2: I think if there had been anything that suggested foul play, 345 00:16:50,681 --> 00:16:52,161 Speaker 2: your bosses would have been strayed on too. I mean, 346 00:16:52,201 --> 00:16:55,281 Speaker 2: Jeff mar being one of the best homicide detectives in 347 00:16:55,321 --> 00:16:57,001 Speaker 2: the state, he would have been right onto this. But 348 00:16:57,161 --> 00:16:59,721 Speaker 2: nothing was found, so that had to be so frustrating 349 00:16:59,761 --> 00:17:03,601 Speaker 2: because there the evidence seemed to stop. And for instance, 350 00:17:03,881 --> 00:17:09,801 Speaker 2: he did talk about other explosive detonators at a property 351 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: up in the country. He did talk about bearing detonators, 352 00:17:14,001 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 2: explosives and other items in the country somewhere there yet 353 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: to be found, and that could be critical evidence to 354 00:17:19,801 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: standing up what he did tell police in the past 355 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: that he was the bomber. 356 00:17:23,561 --> 00:17:27,481 Speaker 4: Absolutely, and I believe that that those items were there 357 00:17:27,521 --> 00:17:31,561 Speaker 4: at some stage. I mean, the investigations earlier did establish 358 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,801 Speaker 4: that he went out to a particular location near where 359 00:17:33,801 --> 00:17:37,801 Speaker 4: he lived many years ago, and he spent time at 360 00:17:37,801 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 4: that location, and we did I was involved too with 361 00:17:41,921 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 4: a search. We had ground penetrating radar, we had drug dogs, 362 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,241 Speaker 4: explosive dogs to try and establish where that was. And 363 00:17:49,281 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 4: at one stage I got very excited because I found 364 00:17:51,441 --> 00:17:55,201 Speaker 4: this nice area there and we thought, oh, we're onto 365 00:17:55,201 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 4: something here. But in the end it was just pushing 366 00:17:57,241 --> 00:18:00,321 Speaker 4: and mounding for where they bopped off the track for vehicles. 367 00:18:00,321 --> 00:18:03,161 Speaker 1: But I was so hoping that we would find something there. 368 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,001 Speaker 4: But it's often crossed my mind just to go out 369 00:18:06,001 --> 00:18:09,241 Speaker 4: as a little bit of a you know, a member 370 00:18:09,281 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 4: of the public and just have a bit of a 371 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 4: poke around if it's not there. I think it was, 372 00:18:13,921 --> 00:18:16,801 Speaker 4: and that's where some people will know. The friends of 373 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 4: his and I think even his brother were aware of 374 00:18:20,681 --> 00:18:23,841 Speaker 4: what was there, as Phil Matthews himself said that there 375 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 4: were things in there, like maps of where he was 376 00:18:26,201 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 4: supposed to do the surveillance on Ferlin. There were explosive 377 00:18:29,721 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 4: leftover Balaclavi's and you know, all sorts of things. A 378 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 4: good little crooks kit and that'd be magnificent to be 379 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:37,921 Speaker 4: able to find. 380 00:18:38,561 --> 00:18:41,481 Speaker 2: Well, because you'd probably have DNA on there as well. 381 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: And you could, of course, you've got his twin brother 382 00:18:45,281 --> 00:18:47,961 Speaker 2: who's still alive. You could compare the DNA to him 383 00:18:47,961 --> 00:18:50,161 Speaker 2: and say, well, this is Phil Matthew's little cachet. 384 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 4: Yes, And that was going just briefly back to the 385 00:18:53,961 --> 00:18:55,961 Speaker 4: cigarette butts. That was something I thought, Oh, I wonder 386 00:18:56,001 --> 00:18:59,801 Speaker 4: if any of these cigarette butts were Phil Matthews and thought, oh, 387 00:18:59,961 --> 00:19:02,321 Speaker 4: only he had an evil twin brother who already had 388 00:19:02,321 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 4: his profile on the system. And I was like, oh, okay, 389 00:19:05,321 --> 00:19:08,641 Speaker 4: maybe not evil. That's probably well, I don't know, he's committed. 390 00:19:08,281 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: For so I think we can call him out. 391 00:19:11,241 --> 00:19:14,161 Speaker 4: He's committed murder, so he's probably not squeaky clean, and 392 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,201 Speaker 4: you know, he's an identical twin And unfortunately there there 393 00:19:17,241 --> 00:19:18,001 Speaker 4: was no match there. 394 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: So that was always the challenge to connect Philip Matthews 395 00:19:22,521 --> 00:19:27,001 Speaker 2: with Domenico Italiano, who the theory went, had ordered the murder. 396 00:19:27,321 --> 00:19:29,601 Speaker 2: And as I talked to people when I've been looking 397 00:19:29,681 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 2: this case over a number of years, I started to 398 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,121 Speaker 2: get a profile of Matthews as someone who was incredibly 399 00:19:35,201 --> 00:19:39,521 Speaker 2: willing and wanted to do this wasn't seeking even there's 400 00:19:39,521 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 2: no discussion of money, And I wonder whether there's a 401 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:48,961 Speaker 2: discontinuous link between Matthews and Italiano, whereby some people talk 402 00:19:49,041 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: to Philip Matthews while he's in jail and say, you 403 00:19:52,521 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: could make a name for yourself by blowing up this individual, 404 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,161 Speaker 2: he goes and does it. It may not have been 405 00:19:59,201 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 2: directly ordered by Italiano, even though he benefited from that. 406 00:20:03,521 --> 00:20:04,561 Speaker 3: Do you think that's possible. 407 00:20:06,521 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 4: Part of the investigation did look at whether there was 408 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 4: talk and we never could quite confirm it whether he 409 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 4: actually did the Flemington bombing A is a bit of 410 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 4: a run up to this one to show that he 411 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 4: could do it and then he would do it, and 412 00:20:20,721 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 4: also that by also confessing to that that was another 413 00:20:24,561 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 4: situation where he's gone in and said, oh, you know, 414 00:20:26,801 --> 00:20:29,041 Speaker 4: I did that bombing and he ended up being locked 415 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 4: up as a result of that. But there was some 416 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 4: suggestion that that was so that he could be inside 417 00:20:34,921 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 4: to have the discussion with these two particular people that 418 00:20:37,721 --> 00:20:41,241 Speaker 4: were already inside, to have that approach made through them. 419 00:20:41,241 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of an obscure kind of 420 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,201 Speaker 1: way of going about it. 421 00:20:44,281 --> 00:20:47,121 Speaker 4: But I did look at those people and they were 422 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 4: in prison at the same time, and he gave a 423 00:20:49,521 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 4: location in the prison where that conversation took place. So 424 00:20:52,761 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 4: I checked those units and the floor plan and everything 425 00:20:55,481 --> 00:20:57,881 Speaker 4: to see if that could have taken place at that location. 426 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: So we did have a look at that. 427 00:21:00,321 --> 00:21:03,321 Speaker 2: I've actually corroborated that with another sawce who knew both 428 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: Ferl and Italiano. Those individuals did have links to Italiano 429 00:21:07,441 --> 00:21:10,561 Speaker 2: and could well have been the organizers and the urgers 430 00:21:10,561 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: for Matthews to do what he did. So it's fascinating 431 00:21:13,721 --> 00:21:16,001 Speaker 2: and of course we should just go to Italiano to 432 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,161 Speaker 2: ask him what happened, but we can't because, as luck 433 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,041 Speaker 2: would have it, he was jailed. In fact, Jeff Maher 434 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:23,881 Speaker 2: when he was looking at these dodgy raffles as part 435 00:21:23,921 --> 00:21:26,321 Speaker 2: of the film and investigation that well, here's some offenses here, 436 00:21:26,761 --> 00:21:30,961 Speaker 2: and Italiana was charged, went to jail, and when he 437 00:21:31,041 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 2: came out, he decided to visit the wife or girlfriend 438 00:21:34,921 --> 00:21:37,241 Speaker 2: of his former cell mate, which is a bit cheeky. 439 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,281 Speaker 3: What happened then, well. 440 00:21:40,041 --> 00:21:42,841 Speaker 4: My understanding is there was a little blue pill involved 441 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,561 Speaker 4: with a session with this lady and he died in 442 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,401 Speaker 4: the process of having an enjoyable afternoon or evening with her. 443 00:21:50,961 --> 00:21:53,641 Speaker 1: So that was the end of Dominique. 444 00:21:53,321 --> 00:21:55,281 Speaker 3: Taliano died on the job. 445 00:21:55,561 --> 00:21:57,961 Speaker 1: Yes, this is a case that just keeps on giving. 446 00:21:58,001 --> 00:22:00,681 Speaker 4: There some things in it that you you know, it's 447 00:22:00,761 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 4: like stranger than fiction sort of thing. You couldn't make 448 00:22:03,921 --> 00:22:06,001 Speaker 4: some of this up, or if only an egle twin brother, 449 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 4: or this sort of death of the main suspect. So 450 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 4: it's like somebody's written it for a TV series, but 451 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 4: it's real. 452 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,721 Speaker 2: And what struck me when I was in Perth, I 453 00:22:18,721 --> 00:22:21,561 Speaker 2: had a good look at the killing of Don Hancock 454 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: and he's mate Louis Lewis ex Coppers. That was in 455 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,201 Speaker 2: two thousand and one, first of September, and the bomb 456 00:22:28,441 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: in that case was very, very similar to the bomb 457 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 2: that was used to kill John Ferland. The large amount 458 00:22:35,441 --> 00:22:39,681 Speaker 2: of explosives set under the passenger seat, slightly different mechanism 459 00:22:39,721 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: for detonation, but I think there was enough similarities for 460 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,001 Speaker 2: police and Victoria to go Matt's notes with Western Australia 461 00:22:47,041 --> 00:22:51,201 Speaker 2: to see if there's still a bomb maker at large somewhere. 462 00:22:52,321 --> 00:22:53,001 Speaker 1: That's correct. 463 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,881 Speaker 4: Yeah, it certainly didn't go and noticed the similarities and 464 00:22:56,001 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 4: our expert here, John calliher very very experienced and very 465 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,521 Speaker 4: intelligent man, is probably one of my. 466 00:23:02,481 --> 00:23:03,801 Speaker 1: Most favorite people in the world. 467 00:23:04,241 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 4: He and his equivalent in Western Australia, they did compare 468 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,321 Speaker 4: notes a lot. I think Western Australia learned a lot 469 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,281 Speaker 4: from the way that the investigation was conducted here, and 470 00:23:15,721 --> 00:23:18,921 Speaker 4: some of those similarities are very very similar that if 471 00:23:18,921 --> 00:23:22,001 Speaker 4: it's not the same person, you have to think that 472 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 4: they had knowledge from that person or some sort of 473 00:23:24,761 --> 00:23:28,041 Speaker 4: extension of it, because it's there are too many similarities 474 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 4: just you know, even to the placement location in the 475 00:23:30,681 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 4: car to be completely coincidental that we just don't have 476 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 4: that many of the bombings for it to be too. 477 00:23:37,761 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: Out of two kind of thing. 478 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,241 Speaker 3: And car bombings are very rare in Australia. 479 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,041 Speaker 2: And if you have skills like this and other people 480 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 2: will want to hire you, I think that would be 481 00:23:47,201 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: a very reasonable line of inquiries. So that's one of 482 00:23:49,921 --> 00:23:52,881 Speaker 2: the interesting things. Like Matthews is dead, obviously, Furland's dead, 483 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,801 Speaker 2: Italiano's dead. Who do we charge now if there's anything 484 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,881 Speaker 2: coming forth, and you've got a couple of options. If 485 00:23:58,921 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: there is the technician who supplied the materials knew how 486 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: they were going to be used. There's an accessory. And 487 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 2: what I find fascinating is that we still have Philip 488 00:24:09,001 --> 00:24:13,241 Speaker 2: Matthew's ex girlfriend, and we actually doorknocked the street where 489 00:24:13,241 --> 00:24:15,881 Speaker 2: he used to live and talk to the neighbors who'd 490 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,761 Speaker 2: been there for a million years, and they said, yes, 491 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: there was all kinds of funny goings on at that house. 492 00:24:20,481 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 2: There were people coming and going, there was cars, and 493 00:24:22,481 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: there was equipment going in and out. So it seems 494 00:24:25,441 --> 00:24:29,201 Speaker 2: like there was something criminal going on there. And Matthew's girlfriend, 495 00:24:29,201 --> 00:24:31,561 Speaker 2: while not being involved in it in any way, she 496 00:24:31,681 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: was never a suspect, but she will have information that 497 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:37,521 Speaker 2: could eventually close this case. 498 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,561 Speaker 4: Absolutely, and it would be wonderful as she would come 499 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,561 Speaker 4: forward and even Phil's twin brother to finish off what 500 00:24:45,041 --> 00:24:47,041 Speaker 4: seemed to be trying to do, to offload it from 501 00:24:47,041 --> 00:24:51,321 Speaker 4: his conscience. And his girlfriend at the time was very staunch, 502 00:24:51,321 --> 00:24:54,201 Speaker 4: and even after they split up, she still wouldn't divulge 503 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:54,761 Speaker 4: much in. 504 00:24:54,681 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: The way of information. And there's various reasons that we 505 00:24:57,801 --> 00:24:59,201 Speaker 1: know she knew more. 506 00:24:59,241 --> 00:25:03,161 Speaker 4: She was already talking about it being a bombing before 507 00:25:03,201 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 4: it was known to be a bombing. Initially, it was 508 00:25:05,761 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 4: thought to be an LPG tank that had exploded in 509 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 4: the vehicle, but the car wasn't fitted with a vehicle. 510 00:25:10,441 --> 00:25:12,041 Speaker 1: It didn't come out till later in the day. 511 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,321 Speaker 4: As far as I'm aware that it was actually a 512 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:17,841 Speaker 4: bomb that had occurred, but she apparently had been referring 513 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,281 Speaker 4: to it as a bombing prior to that being known 514 00:25:20,441 --> 00:25:23,401 Speaker 4: in the public, so that I thought was very interesting. 515 00:25:23,761 --> 00:25:26,641 Speaker 4: But you know, this has not really come directly from her, 516 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,321 Speaker 4: but she would be able to provide a lot of information. 517 00:25:29,521 --> 00:25:33,241 Speaker 4: And also the associates. There's an associate that Phil had 518 00:25:33,281 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 4: back at the time I think would be able to 519 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 4: help with some information about Phil and what he was 520 00:25:38,481 --> 00:25:40,681 Speaker 4: up to, what he was capable of with as far 521 00:25:40,761 --> 00:25:43,441 Speaker 4: as putting where could he put a bomb together? Would 522 00:25:43,441 --> 00:25:45,801 Speaker 4: he have known? Would he know where to go and 523 00:25:46,041 --> 00:25:49,321 Speaker 4: get the resources or get the components that he needed 524 00:25:49,321 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 4: for the bomb? And I think that person is it's 525 00:25:53,441 --> 00:25:56,961 Speaker 4: probably pretty key as well. The girlfriend, his twin brother, 526 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,801 Speaker 4: and this particular person I've got in mind, I think 527 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,481 Speaker 4: could really advance investigation well. 528 00:26:02,481 --> 00:26:05,801 Speaker 2: And there's one million reasons to come forward now I'd 529 00:26:05,801 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: like to keep working out so I can claim the 530 00:26:07,241 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: rewards somehow. If there's a way of doing it. And 531 00:26:09,481 --> 00:26:11,041 Speaker 2: it's funny how there are quite a lot of these 532 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,001 Speaker 2: million dollar rewards in Victoria. They're very rarely paid out, 533 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,801 Speaker 2: but I think this one is something that is one 534 00:26:17,801 --> 00:26:19,241 Speaker 2: that could be paid out. 535 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,241 Speaker 3: And what would your advice be. 536 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,201 Speaker 2: Sometimes people are too close to crimes they and they 537 00:26:24,321 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 2: fear that they might be prosecuted as well. But I 538 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: think if they're lesser offenses, there's usually something that can 539 00:26:30,561 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: be done so their information can be used and they 540 00:26:33,521 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 2: can avoid prosecution. 541 00:26:35,721 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: That's my understanding of it. 542 00:26:37,201 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 4: I mean to be honest, I get most of my 543 00:26:39,321 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 4: information on that from just TV shows myself. I don't 544 00:26:42,041 --> 00:26:44,761 Speaker 4: know that much about what is on offering that respect, 545 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 4: but I believe they'd be able to come to some 546 00:26:47,721 --> 00:26:51,521 Speaker 4: agreement and understanding where they'd either not be prosecuted, or 547 00:26:51,521 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 4: there might be lesser charges, or there'd be some trade 548 00:26:54,441 --> 00:26:58,161 Speaker 4: off where the information that they could provide be more 549 00:26:58,241 --> 00:27:01,721 Speaker 4: valuable to investigators than them staying silent. 550 00:27:02,041 --> 00:27:04,001 Speaker 1: So it's certainly something. 551 00:27:03,721 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 4: That would be good for them to discuss and then 552 00:27:06,681 --> 00:27:08,921 Speaker 4: they can make that informed decision whether they would want 553 00:27:08,921 --> 00:27:10,001 Speaker 4: to take it any further or not. 554 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,241 Speaker 3: We'll leave it there, Tina, Thank you so much, for 555 00:27:12,281 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 3: your time today. 556 00:27:13,561 --> 00:27:15,641 Speaker 1: You're very welcome and good luck with it all. 557 00:27:17,521 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: That was Tina Kemp, the detective who reviewed the murder 558 00:27:20,481 --> 00:27:23,161 Speaker 2: case of John fernand blown up in a car bomb 559 00:27:23,201 --> 00:27:26,161 Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety eight. There is a million dollars 560 00:27:26,201 --> 00:27:28,001 Speaker 2: on office, so if you can help in this case, 561 00:27:28,481 --> 00:27:30,321 Speaker 2: maybe send me an email first, but you can also 562 00:27:30,321 --> 00:27:32,441 Speaker 2: call the police. A crime stoff is one eight hundred, 563 00:27:32,481 --> 00:27:35,561 Speaker 2: triple three, triple zero. Your information will always be treated 564 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: as confidential, but you can also email me if you 565 00:27:38,241 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: like as well. I'd like to know what happened to 566 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,281 Speaker 2: myself as with Tina, So Adam Shand writer at gmail 567 00:27:43,321 --> 00:27:45,921 Speaker 2: dot com, thank you for listening. This has been real 568 00:27:45,961 --> 00:27:48,041 Speaker 2: crime with Adam Shanmed. This is Adam Shand signing off. 569 00:27:48,041 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.