WEBVTT - Labor’s promise of a ‘fairer’ gas deal

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Australia

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<v Speaker 1>is one of the biggest exporters of liquefied natural gas

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<v Speaker 1>in the world. Over the past twenty five years, the

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<v Speaker 1>value of those exports has grow more than twenty four

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<v Speaker 1>yet revenue from the tax designed to capture the extraordinary

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<v Speaker 1>profits from petroleum resources has gone backwards. Now this week,

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<v Speaker 1>at its national conference, the Labour Party has formally acknowledged

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<v Speaker 1>that Australians deserve a fairer return from the resources beneath

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<v Speaker 1>their own soil and seas, but the party stops short

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<v Speaker 1>of backing a policy that forced the issue onto the

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<v Speaker 1>agenda in the first place, a twenty five percent tax

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<v Speaker 1>on gas exports that supporters say could raise up to

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen billion dollars a year. Today, the Australian Institute co

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<v Speaker 1>Chief executive Richard Dennis on the unlikely alliance pushing Labor

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<v Speaker 1>to take on the gas industry and whether the party's

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<v Speaker 1>carefully chosen words who ever become an actual acts. It's Saturday,

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<v Speaker 1>July twenty five. Richard. You were at the LP national

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<v Speaker 1>conference this week. What was the vibe like at the meeting?

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<v Speaker 2>Ah? I think there was a there was a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of excitement, a lot of Labor members who hadn't seen

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<v Speaker 2>each other for a long time, been a while since

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<v Speaker 2>there's a national conference, So there was definitely a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of a lot of good will in the room, but

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time, variously frustration and disappointment that the

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<v Speaker 2>good old days where you could have a staush and

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<v Speaker 2>that people could see the competing arguments and that people

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<v Speaker 2>might even see the result shift because of the strength

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<v Speaker 2>of public argument, that those days seemed to be behind well,

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<v Speaker 2>not just Australia but Labor Party and the way they

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<v Speaker 2>want to organize their conferences. So people talk about grassroots,

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<v Speaker 2>people talk about the base. Well, this is the grassroots

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<v Speaker 2>and this is the base. And they wanted to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about gas, to talk about gaza, they wanted to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about gambling, and the big kids were saying, calm down, Feller,

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<v Speaker 2>the Prime Minister doesn't want a distraction. Lots of people

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<v Speaker 2>had different priorities, but between them they couldn't agree on

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<v Speaker 2>what to force on the party as a whole.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that the National Conference this week agreed to

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<v Speaker 1>was to put a commitment in the party platform to

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<v Speaker 1>secure Australians a quote vera return from natural resources through

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<v Speaker 1>appropriate taxation arrangements. It didn't endorse the twenty five percent

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<v Speaker 1>gas export tax being pushed by unions and some labor INPs.

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<v Speaker 1>So can you strip that language down for us? What

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<v Speaker 1>is labor actually agreed to by using that language and

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<v Speaker 1>putting forward that commitment.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, what they've agreed to do is to make it fairer.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the two letters do a lot of work

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<v Speaker 2>in that sentence. So look, it's a statement of intent,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a statement of direction of travel. But by definition

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<v Speaker 2>you know that language has no timetable and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>have a destination. So what I think it is is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, quite a big public nudge from the party

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<v Speaker 2>to the parliamentary wing. Come on, do better, try harder,

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<v Speaker 2>negotiate harder, take the pain, go get a better deal

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<v Speaker 2>for Australians and you'll have to force those foreign owned

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<v Speaker 2>gas companies to pay more. So, to be clear, the

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five percent export gas export tax is the act

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<v Speaker 2>u's formal position. The ACTU executive have adopted that the

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<v Speaker 2>affiliate unions are broadly behind it, the left and right

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<v Speaker 2>blue collar unions are supporting it, The service sector unions,

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<v Speaker 2>the white collar unions are very supportive because they know

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<v Speaker 2>that the only way teachers and nurses are going to

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<v Speaker 2>get a pay rise is if the government collects enough tax.

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<v Speaker 2>The NDIS sector knows it's going to get huge carts

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<v Speaker 2>unless the government can find new sources of revenue. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's united the left and right of the union movement.

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<v Speaker 2>It's united the blue collar and the white collar of

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<v Speaker 2>the union movement. It's certainly got the branches excited. But

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<v Speaker 2>the Prime Minister knows how to manage a labor conference.

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<v Speaker 2>He managed to avoid what he might think of as

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<v Speaker 2>a messy debate about it. But you know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>miss is what democracy looks like.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I mean I missed the coverage from the

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<v Speaker 1>good old days of the old labor conferences where they

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<v Speaker 1>were just blues in the floor. He went to make

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<v Speaker 1>great viewing. But that's another.

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<v Speaker 2>Point, including by Elbow, including by.

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<v Speaker 1>Elbow in his various forms. Jim Charman's on seven point

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<v Speaker 1>thirty the other night told Sarah Ferguson the reason why

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<v Speaker 1>gas tax has not been on our a vendor is

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<v Speaker 1>because we've got other priorities.

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<v Speaker 2>Whether it's reservation, the PRRT changes I've already made or

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<v Speaker 2>making sure that we are reliable international supplier.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the government's focus. How far down the priority list

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<v Speaker 1>do you think it is for this government? And how

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<v Speaker 1>much hope do you hold out that this will become

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<v Speaker 1>part of their election platform in twenty twenty eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, you know hope is not a strategy. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in my experienced, pressure works. So everywhere the Prime Minister goes,

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<v Speaker 2>someone says, how you say we have to tighten our belts,

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<v Speaker 2>why don't we tax gas instead? The question when will

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<v Speaker 2>they act on it? Well, that's their political judgment. But

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<v Speaker 2>to give you an historical example, in Labour's first term,

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<v Speaker 2>the Australian Institute and the other and a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>other groups really pushed hard for changes to the Stage

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<v Speaker 2>three tax cuts, and for two and a half years

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<v Speaker 2>I got told, oh, come on, Richard, he said he

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<v Speaker 2>won't do that, that's never going to happen. He's all

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<v Speaker 2>that out. And then he did it and the lead

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<v Speaker 2>up to the twenty twenty five election, which he won

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<v Speaker 2>in a landslide. And while I've spent years saying it's

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<v Speaker 2>obvious you should do it, the Prime Minister got the

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<v Speaker 2>timing spot on. So what do I think is going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen this term. Well, the pressure is not going

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<v Speaker 2>to go away. Every week we delay this tax costs

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<v Speaker 2>US three hundred and fifty million dollars every week. We

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<v Speaker 2>are foregoing three hundred and fifty million. We estimate seventeen

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<v Speaker 2>billion dollars a year in revenue. And you only get

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<v Speaker 2>to sell the gas once, you only get to tax

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<v Speaker 2>it once. I'm not suggesting that he'll inevitably do it,

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<v Speaker 2>but I reckon if he does it, he'll do it

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<v Speaker 2>before the next election, because to be clear, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>very real threat that if he doesn't do it, a

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<v Speaker 2>Liberal party led by Andrew Hasty or some conservative politicians

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<v Speaker 2>are going to see the same political opportunity to put

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<v Speaker 2>Australians first. And this is really important. The first party

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia to say I will have a fight with

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<v Speaker 2>foreign gas companies so that you can have higher quality services,

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<v Speaker 2>the first party to do that is going to get

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<v Speaker 2>all the lolligs and everybody else is going to get

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<v Speaker 2>sucked into their wake. So just like as soon as

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<v Speaker 2>Labor did the Stage three tax cuts, the Liberals came

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<v Speaker 2>out and backed it. If Labor came out and said

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to tax gas and make childcare free, or

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<v Speaker 2>tax gas, you know, drop hex or tax gas and

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<v Speaker 2>give everyone a pay rise. If labor came out and

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<v Speaker 2>did that, the liberals have got nowhere to go. One

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<v Speaker 2>nation's got nowhere to go. But if one of those

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<v Speaker 2>other parties do it first, well you know that's a

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<v Speaker 2>real risk for labor. And Hasty has already said he

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<v Speaker 2>supports the idea coming up.

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<v Speaker 1>Why the gas companies are so good at minimizing their tax, Richard,

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<v Speaker 1>gas companies have been paying relatively little for years. Could

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<v Speaker 1>you just take us a step back and explain what

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<v Speaker 1>Australians currently received when gas is extracted and exported.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, look, Australia exports about the same amount of gas

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<v Speaker 2>as Qatar, and Qatar collects about five times more tax

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<v Speaker 2>than US. Other countries know how to tax the gas industry. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the problem in Australia is we have this thing called

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<v Speaker 2>the peace RRT, the Petroleum Resource Rent tax. And there's

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<v Speaker 2>a hint in the name. We invented this policy decades

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<v Speaker 2>ago to tax oil that got turned into petrol. That's

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<v Speaker 2>why it's called the Petroleum Resource Rent tax. And it

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<v Speaker 2>was just never designed to tax something like liquefied natural

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<v Speaker 2>gas exports. Now you know most people are sitting there

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<v Speaker 2>and now going, oh, who cares, what's the difference between

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<v Speaker 2>petrol and gas. Well, because of the complexity and how

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<v Speaker 2>many stages there are in sucking out gas, shipping it

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<v Speaker 2>to the liquefication plant, liquefying it, putting on a boat,

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<v Speaker 2>all those steps allow for what's called transfer pricing, effectively

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<v Speaker 2>tax minimization. So the simple reality is we collect more

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<v Speaker 2>revenue from beer ex ice and HEXRA payments than we

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<v Speaker 2>get from the PRT. That's how bad it is. The

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<v Speaker 2>way it's set up. It's a profits based tax, not

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<v Speaker 2>a revenue based tax, and the way that profit is

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<v Speaker 2>defined is ea to manipulate. And it's particularly easy for

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<v Speaker 2>the gas industry to manipulate the amount of profit they

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<v Speaker 2>claim to make because any of the upfront costs that

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<v Speaker 2>they incur are deductible against future profits. The end result

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<v Speaker 2>is the gas industry are not breaking the law. They're

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<v Speaker 2>just carrying forward all these kind of historic expenses and

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<v Speaker 2>every year they get to go, nah, I know, I've

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<v Speaker 2>shipped a lot of money back to the shareholders, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's not a good year to pay prit if you've

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<v Speaker 2>seen all these costs I carried forward. So that's why

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<v Speaker 2>a simple export tax is now on their gender. You

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<v Speaker 2>can't hide the total sales, you can't avoid it. And

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<v Speaker 2>the only real way to avoid the export tax get

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<v Speaker 2>this is to not export it. It's to actually supply

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<v Speaker 2>more gas to Australians. So you actually fix this so

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<v Speaker 2>called supply shortage by giving the gas industry an incentive

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<v Speaker 2>to sell gas to Australians.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is why the Australian Institutes supports a flat

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five percent tax on the value of gas exports

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<v Speaker 1>rather than based on company profits. The industry says this

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<v Speaker 1>tax would drive investment away in ultimately of Australia with

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<v Speaker 1>less gas. I guess they would say that, But what's

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<v Speaker 1>the evidence that tells us whether that threat is actually credible.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Look, they get paid a lot of money to

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<v Speaker 2>say that. They're not accountable for lying or misleading. It's

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<v Speaker 2>they Indeed, they get a reward, they get a bonus

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<v Speaker 2>if they if they talk Australians into this nonsense. But

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<v Speaker 2>what's the easiest way to rebut it? Well, IMPEX is

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<v Speaker 2>if we increase taxes, then they won't invest here anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>But they're currently looking to invest in Norway, and Norway

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<v Speaker 2>taxes a lot more than we do. But the other

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<v Speaker 2>thing is they use the word investment in a way

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<v Speaker 2>that confuses people. To be clear, if something's already been

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<v Speaker 2>built here in Australia and they've spent billions of dollars

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<v Speaker 2>building it, they can pull their money out of Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>But the only way they can pull their money out

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<v Speaker 2>of Australia is by selling that project to someone else.

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<v Speaker 2>And the project stays here. So you know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>this scare campaign implies or if they don't invest, we

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<v Speaker 2>won't have any gas anymore. It's like no, no, no.

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<v Speaker 2>To be clear, the gas is here, the gas extraction

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<v Speaker 2>equipment is here, the liquefication project is here. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a scare campaign. What's embarrassing is not that people

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<v Speaker 2>fall for it. What's embarrassing is that our elected leaders

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<v Speaker 2>seem to fall for it. You know, this stuff is

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<v Speaker 2>a bit complicated, But if our government doesn't know that,

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<v Speaker 2>they can't take their bat, their ball and their gas

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<v Speaker 2>refinery and go home. If our government doesn't know that,

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<v Speaker 2>that's embarrassing. So I don't blame the public for being

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<v Speaker 2>a bit confused, But we actually need our Resources Minister

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<v Speaker 2>and our Prime Minister to negotiate hard deals on our behalf.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, the Resource Minister speaks as if she

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<v Speaker 2>represents the resource companies, talk about getting the brief wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the Resource Minister's to get the highest possible price

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<v Speaker 2>for Australians for our gas. That's her job because we

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<v Speaker 2>only get to sell it once. And the Norwegians know that,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Kataris know that, and the Saudis know that.

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<v Speaker 2>And we think that the foreign gas companies are doing

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<v Speaker 2>us some sort of favor when they invest in the

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<v Speaker 2>export equipment that they need to take our gas to

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<v Speaker 2>their country. I mean, it's wild.

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<v Speaker 1>So another ALP national conference is over now, Richard, and

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<v Speaker 1>there is the promise, like we've mentioned, that there will

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<v Speaker 1>be a fairer return on natural resources. Ed Hughesick says

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<v Speaker 1>the campaign will survive the conference. What do you think

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<v Speaker 1>do you think there are enough factions now within Labor

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<v Speaker 1>to keep this issue alive and get the Treasurer and

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<v Speaker 1>Prime Minister to embrace it eventually.

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<v Speaker 2>I do, and I think it's in Labour's interest to

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<v Speaker 2>do it, and I think the timing is important. Because

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<v Speaker 2>if I can see it, they can see it. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Dutton went to the last election saying when needed

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<v Speaker 2>some form of gas export tax. Pauline Hansen says we

0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.320
<v Speaker 2>need some form of gas export tax. To be clear,

0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.400
<v Speaker 2>neither of them has proposed something as ambitious or as

0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.400
<v Speaker 2>effective as a twenty five percent export tax, but both

0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.320
<v Speaker 2>of them have made space for this conversation. Clive Palmer

0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.040
<v Speaker 2>supports it. All those full page ads that you see,

0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>have a look. The first dot point is a twenty

0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.240
<v Speaker 2>five percent gas export tax. So yes, it's true that

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 2>the Prime Minister seems determined to kick this into the

0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.840
<v Speaker 2>longish grass yet again. But it's also true that his

0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.120
<v Speaker 2>party wants it, the members want it, the act you

0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 2>were calling for it. But it's also true that his

0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.600
<v Speaker 2>political opponents can see the same political opportunity. And again

0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:50.680
<v Speaker 2>the first party that shows Australians I will put Australians

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.200
<v Speaker 2>ahead of the interests of the foreign gas companies, They're

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.679
<v Speaker 2>going to pick up a lot of odes. And frankly,

0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.760
<v Speaker 2>what better way to show us Australians that our democracy

0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.360
<v Speaker 2>isn't broken and what better way to show Australians that

0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 2>our parliament can actually stand up on behalf of Australians

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.440
<v Speaker 2>than to make some foreign gas companies really sad. Indeed,

0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.079
<v Speaker 2>the anger of the gas industry is the communications strategy.

0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Look how angry they are because I made them pay

0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.400
<v Speaker 2>you a fairer price for your resources. Now I can

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.680
<v Speaker 2>give you better aged care. Now I can give you

0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.320
<v Speaker 2>cheaper childcare. Now I can cut your kids university fees.

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.240
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, call me old fashioned, but that sounds

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.080
<v Speaker 2>like good economics and good politics.

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.200
<v Speaker 1>I never call you old fashion, Richard. But thank you

0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.280
<v Speaker 1>once again for coming on seven Am.

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:45.840
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.480
<v Speaker 1>You can also read Richard Dennis's latest vantage Points I

0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 1>Say from Australian Stitchep Press titled more for Me Have

0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 1>the Gas Industry Tricked Australia? That'll be out next month.

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Seven Am was a daily show from Solstice Media. It's

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.960
<v Speaker 1>made by Aria Richards, Adigast Bastow, Chris Danegate, Crystal Kellor,

0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Renee Auckland, Ruby Jones, Travis Evans, zoltanfit Joe Jr. And

0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:17.160
<v Speaker 1>Me Daniel James. Our theme music is by Ned Beckley

0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.840
<v Speaker 1>and Josh Hogan of Envelope Bordier. Have a great weekend

0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 1>and if you haven't already. You can follow seven am

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.880
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram or subscribe on YouTube, and you can leave

0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:39.720
<v Speaker 1>us a review on your podcast app. It really helps