WEBVTT - Dogs, disinformation and deepfakes: Inside Dutton's meme machine

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty nineteen, Scott Morrison managed to narrowly win a

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<v Speaker 1>third term despite Pole's placing the Coalition behind Labor for

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<v Speaker 1>almost three years. At the heart of the victory was

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<v Speaker 1>a change in the way they campaigned, bringing in a

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<v Speaker 1>pair of young strategists armed with a new weapon, low

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<v Speaker 1>quality memes. The duo, called Topp and Gearen have become

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<v Speaker 1>a go to agency for conservative parties and have been

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<v Speaker 1>hired by Peter Dutton ahead of the next federal election.

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<v Speaker 1>But they're more controversial. Methods including deep fakes and disinformation

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<v Speaker 1>are raising questions about the ethics of political campaigning in

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<v Speaker 1>the digital age. Today special correspondent for the Saturday Paper,

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<v Speaker 1>Jason kotsukus on the rise of Topp and Geeren and

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<v Speaker 1>the political power of bad memes. It's Tuesday, December tenth.

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<v Speaker 1>So you've been looking into this digital creative agency, top

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<v Speaker 1>em Gearen. Who are they.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, top em gearan or TG as they sometimes refer

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<v Speaker 2>to themselves as an advertising company, you might call it

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<v Speaker 2>a boutique marketing agency. It was formed in New Zealand

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty sixteen by two young wiz kids, Sean Topham

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<v Speaker 2>and Ben Gearen, and they've grown pretty quickly since then.

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<v Speaker 2>They've now got offices in London and Sydney as well

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<v Speaker 2>as their headquarters in Auckland, and they've really in that

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<v Speaker 2>short amount of time established themselves as a very disruptive

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<v Speaker 2>force in the world of political communications. They're pretty a

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<v Speaker 2>student pumping out a lot of content very quickly, that's

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<v Speaker 2>very emotionally charged.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So it was formed by these two young fellows

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<v Speaker 1>in New Zealand. Tell me about some of the campaigns

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<v Speaker 1>that worked on well.

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<v Speaker 2>That kind of breakthrough moment was actually in twenty seventeen

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<v Speaker 2>the New Zealand general election. They ran the digital comps

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<v Speaker 2>for that campaign and the New Zealand Nationals won the

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<v Speaker 2>most seats, but they weren't able to form a government,

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<v Speaker 2>so it wasn't a huge victory, but they still did

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<v Speaker 2>pretty well, well enough so that the Liberal Party here

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia hired them to run the advertising for Scott

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<v Speaker 2>Morrison's re election campaign in twenty nineteen, and when Morrison

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<v Speaker 2>won so unexpectedly even he described it as a miracle.

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<v Speaker 2>And not long after that win, Ben Gearan spoke at

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<v Speaker 2>a right wing conference called the Freedman Conference to discuss

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<v Speaker 2>pr strategy really interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>You've got to surprise people, you've got to shock people,

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<v Speaker 3>you've got to unlock and arouse on emotion in people, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is really one of the first times where

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<v Speaker 2>we saw Ben Gearon talking about where they really found

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<v Speaker 2>success and the key to it was using social media

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<v Speaker 2>to engage older Australians with his kind of purposefully low

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<v Speaker 2>quality memes. Ben Geron described this as the Boomer memes strategy.

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<v Speaker 3>And the peak point during the campaign we were posting

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<v Speaker 3>thirty posts a day and more than two hundred or

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<v Speaker 3>two and fifty a week. That means you have to

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<v Speaker 3>generate and publish a new piece of content every twenty minutes.

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<v Speaker 3>That's how you get what we call the boomer memes

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<v Speaker 3>because you had to crank stuff out quickly. You couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>spend too long doing it perfectly created, like artisanally perfect graphic.

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<v Speaker 3>You're gonna slap some calibri font on a shitty, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>reused meme and you're gonna publish it, and then you

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<v Speaker 3>get onto the next one, and you know what that

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<v Speaker 3>content is going to do better than the thing that

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<v Speaker 3>your poor graphic designer spent a week on.

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<v Speaker 2>In the same presentation, Ben Grin also referred to a

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<v Speaker 2>Bill shot in Game of Thrones meme which labeled Bill

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<v Speaker 2>Shot and the tax King.

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<v Speaker 3>Are we taking it for granted that everyone knows that

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<v Speaker 3>Bill is all about text? We're moving one step on

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<v Speaker 3>from that. What happens when you know that everything's about

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<v Speaker 3>text with Bill? Oh, well, you know you've got the

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<v Speaker 3>bad joke meme. You've got the fact that he's been

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<v Speaker 3>compared to nearest Tigerian. I think that's a compliment. Actually,

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<v Speaker 3>I think she's she wonders in the Game of Thrones.

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<v Speaker 2>And he admits that it's not a particularly sophisticated or

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<v Speaker 2>even well made meme.

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<v Speaker 3>The point is here that we were sort of unlocking

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<v Speaker 3>different ways of talking about the issue. But every single

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<v Speaker 3>thing that we're doing is relevant to the key message.

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<v Speaker 2>He also spoke about how they would whack short messages

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<v Speaker 2>about tax next to pictures of cute dogs, and they

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<v Speaker 2>really figured out how to weaponize these boomer memes.

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<v Speaker 1>That it was very effective, really targeting the grandparents with

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<v Speaker 1>that one.

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<v Speaker 2>Jace absolutely, and I guess achieving mastery on Facebook was

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<v Speaker 2>really call to their strategy. I also worked on the

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<v Speaker 2>twenty nineteen general election campaign in the UK, which catapulted

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<v Speaker 2>them onto the global stage. Top them created an advertisement

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<v Speaker 2>for the Conservative Party which featured Boris Johnson doing a

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<v Speaker 2>parody of that famous scene from the film Love Actually,

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<v Speaker 2>where Kira Knightley's secret admirer turns up on the doorstep

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<v Speaker 2>of her house and holds up a series of cards

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<v Speaker 2>that declare his love for her.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh Hi, what is it?

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<v Speaker 2>It's Karle Sayers give And in the Conservative Party video

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<v Speaker 2>entitled Brexit Actually, it's Boris Johnson with the cards and

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<v Speaker 2>instead of declaring his love for the woman standing in

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<v Speaker 2>the door, he's encouraging her to vote Conservative. And the

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<v Speaker 2>key message in that ad was let the Tory government

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<v Speaker 2>finally get Brexit done.

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<v Speaker 1>Enough enough, Let's get this done.

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<v Speaker 2>They were also widely condemned because during one of the

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<v Speaker 2>Leader's debates, which was Boris Johnson versus Jeremy Corbyn, Topham

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<v Speaker 2>Gearan changed the name of the Conservative Party's Twitter account

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<v Speaker 2>to fact check UK.

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<v Speaker 5>You'd be forgiven for thinking that this was an independent

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<v Speaker 5>fact checking site, but the indication they're saying it was

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<v Speaker 5>from CHQ, and that's what has people talking.

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<v Speaker 2>People believed it was misleading, and they were accused of

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<v Speaker 2>e roating public trust in digital platforms and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>blurring those lines between genuine fact checking and partisan propaganda.

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<v Speaker 1>So they've kind of pushed some ethical boundaries there in

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<v Speaker 1>relation to digital campaigning. But is it against the law,

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<v Speaker 1>is it against the rules or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's not against the rules or any regulation. And

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<v Speaker 2>Sean Topham himself has defended it in an interview with

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<v Speaker 2>The Spectator earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 5>Look, we were there to be playful and create some

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<v Speaker 5>noise to get attention and eyeballs on the conservative edges.

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<v Speaker 5>Controversy sometimes a good thing on social media.

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<v Speaker 1>A little bit of controversy can be a good thing

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<v Speaker 1>on social media, and it's about making sure that that

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<v Speaker 1>controversy relates back to an important message.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's also far from the only controversial thing that

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<v Speaker 2>top Gearan has done. They were hired to do the

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<v Speaker 2>advertising for the Queensland Liberal National Party in the state

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<v Speaker 2>election there in October and they created four hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>sixty five custom video ads during the campaign and TJ

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<v Speaker 2>also revealed that using artificial intelligence had been a really

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<v Speaker 2>important part of helping them turn these videos around very quickly.

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<v Speaker 5>It looks like a video of the premiere, but it's not.

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<v Speaker 5>This clip, posted on the Liberal National Party's tektok account,

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<v Speaker 5>has been created using artificial intelligence.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the videos that created had a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>controversy during that Queensland election was a deep fake video

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<v Speaker 2>of then Queensland Premier Stephen Miles dancing, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>by itself it was pretty harmless, but it did raise

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<v Speaker 2>some eyebrows about is this the beginning of deep fakes

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<v Speaker 2>being a standard go to thing during election campaigns? And

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<v Speaker 2>Steven Miles himself said it represented a pretty dangerous turning point,

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<v Speaker 2>and so experts that I spoke to pose the question

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<v Speaker 2>that is this really the sort of thing that's in

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<v Speaker 2>line with the ethical norms of being a professional communicator.

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<v Speaker 2>And so while these guys have emerged as a go

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<v Speaker 2>to agency for conservative parties seeking to leverage digital media,

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<v Speaker 2>I think there are really genuine concerns about disinformation and

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<v Speaker 2>deep fakes that are used so often by this agency,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly as we approach the next federal election.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break rebranding, Peter Dutton, so Jason, the consultancy

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<v Speaker 1>group top Gear and have been engaged by the Liberal

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<v Speaker 1>Party to work on the next federal election campaign. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you have any sense about what that campaign is going

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<v Speaker 1>to look like? More Boomer means for one.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, a senior Liberal Party source did confirm to me

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<v Speaker 2>that yes, TG has been hired to work with the

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<v Speaker 2>Federal coalition and of course Peter Dutton as he heads

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<v Speaker 2>into the campaign. And as for what that campaign might

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<v Speaker 2>look like, I guess we could treat the recent Queensland

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<v Speaker 2>campaign as a bit of a dress rehearsal, so I

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<v Speaker 2>think we'll see some aggressive use of AI and deep fakes.

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<v Speaker 2>But one other thing that the agency has done that's

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<v Speaker 2>been effective has been using video platforms like TikTok to

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<v Speaker 2>humanize politicians. We saw this in the New Zealand election

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<v Speaker 2>last year where they got the New Zealand Nationals leader

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Luckson, who looks a little bit like Peter Dutton, tall, bald,

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<v Speaker 2>known for being pretty no nonsense and a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people might look at Chris Luxon and think that he's

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<v Speaker 2>probably never going to work on social media, but according

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<v Speaker 2>to Sean Topham, they're able to work at revealing Chris

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<v Speaker 2>Lackson's sense of humor.

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<v Speaker 4>A lot of you have said to me, Look, Chris,

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<v Speaker 4>you're a good looking board man.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you keep your skin in such good condition?

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<v Speaker 1>All of these two tracks?

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<v Speaker 4>In my skin care regime, I have a daily moisturizer.

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<v Speaker 1>Cara a sirav.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not sure how to say that. It seems to

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<v Speaker 4>work really well. You only need a little bit of

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<v Speaker 4>this great daily moisturizer to go a long way. Unlike

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<v Speaker 4>this government, we don't waste anything, not even the moisturizer

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<v Speaker 4>and the most important thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think we could sort of see that as

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps a bit of a signal as to how the

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<v Speaker 2>agency is going to try and humanize Peter Dutton.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I understand that Peter Dutton has a TikTok account.

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<v Speaker 2>Not only does he have a TikTok account, but he's

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<v Speaker 2>using it.

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<v Speaker 4>I think he's.

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<v Speaker 2>Posted around eight videos. It's doing exactly what Chris Luxon did.

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<v Speaker 4>I know. My first TikTok is supposed to be something

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<v Speaker 4>fun and I probably should say something that is or

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<v Speaker 4>isn't demure.

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<v Speaker 2>But he's got a video there about the family dog,

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<v Speaker 2>the video that I think that's got the most views.

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<v Speaker 2>As a proposal to ban foreigners and temporary residents from

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<v Speaker 2>buying existing homes hard.

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<v Speaker 4>You stay in while everyone's going out so that you

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<v Speaker 4>can save a bit more, and you finally have enough

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<v Speaker 4>to buy your first home, put in a good offer,

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<v Speaker 4>only to be outbid by someone who doesn't even live

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<v Speaker 4>in this country. It's a situation.

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<v Speaker 2>According to Garin, he was on a podcast earlier this

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<v Speaker 2>year explaining that the key test is whether or not

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<v Speaker 2>the content is entertaining, So it's going to be interesting

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<v Speaker 2>to see how they try to take that further. And

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<v Speaker 2>of course the other goal is to try and create

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<v Speaker 2>content that will ultimately get shared.

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<v Speaker 1>So after twenty nineteen losing the unlosable election, Labor must

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<v Speaker 1>have realized they were outmaneuverd by the Liberals online I

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<v Speaker 1>like gearing up. They have their own twenty four hour

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<v Speaker 1>meme factory.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they certainly learned the lessons of the defeat in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty nineteen, and after that they got together and created

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<v Speaker 2>a new digital unit which they deployed in the twenty

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<v Speaker 2>two election, and they ran that as a kind of

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<v Speaker 2>rapid response newsroom so that they were able to push

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<v Speaker 2>out content quickly. But as you know, Daniel, this space,

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<v Speaker 2>the online space, really has tended to be dominated by

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<v Speaker 2>right wing groups, you know, in the last few years,

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<v Speaker 2>and we saw that especially during the Voice referendum campaign,

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<v Speaker 2>where the Yes twenty three campaign was completely outmaneuvered by

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<v Speaker 2>groups like Advance, especially when it came to a shareable

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<v Speaker 2>content on platforms like TikTok, where the Yes twenty three

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<v Speaker 2>campaign didn't even have a presence. One person I spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to was Hari Adne Froman She's a professor in the

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<v Speaker 2>Crawford School of Public Policy at the Australian National University.

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<v Speaker 2>She's also a political sociologist and she said, in her view,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a growing network of people who work exclusively for

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<v Speaker 2>conservative parties and that they are very much in the ascendency.

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<v Speaker 2>The Voice campaign showed a serious risk for labor to

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<v Speaker 2>see TikTok and other platforms. To Peter Dutton, we all

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<v Speaker 2>know that Anthony Alberzi has yet to set up a

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<v Speaker 2>TikTok account, then Anthony Alberanzi will absolutely have to compete

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<v Speaker 2>with him in that space.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, Jason, when you look at how agencies like

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<v Speaker 1>topgearon and say Advanced in the Voice fresherendum have maybe

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<v Speaker 1>pushed some ethical boundaries around disinformation in political campaigns, deep

0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:56.160
<v Speaker 1>fakes and falsehoods so legal and political advertising in this country.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there any consensus to change that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first point I should make here is that both

0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.280
<v Speaker 2>the major parties are using deep fakes and AI to

0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>create new political ads. The Labor Party's got a deep

0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.559
<v Speaker 2>fake video out there of Peter Dutton also dancing. I mean,

0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.480
<v Speaker 2>it's so obviously a deep fake. I don't get the

0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.880
<v Speaker 2>sense that they're trying to trick me. I don't have

0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.200
<v Speaker 2>too much of a problem with political parties using AI

0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 2>in the way that the rest of society is going

0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.840
<v Speaker 2>to be using AI. Political campaigning does evolve with each election,

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:35.240
<v Speaker 2>and you can't stop change, can you. So we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to have to be all quite vigilant in making sure

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<v Speaker 2>that we are policing any attempt to genuinely fool voters

0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.760
<v Speaker 2>into believing this is a real video of Anthony Oberenezi

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 2>doing X, Y or Z. Then we've got to be

0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:54.640
<v Speaker 2>vigil about taking that sort of content down. There's not

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<v Speaker 2>really a consensus around, you know, what the rules are

0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.640
<v Speaker 2>or what they should be. I think this is going

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<v Speaker 2>to be one of those things where we know, I

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<v Speaker 2>guess regulations and laws will evolve as the technology becomes

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<v Speaker 2>more sophisticated.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel, great to chat to you as always.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Prome Minister Anthony Albernezi has announced

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<v Speaker 1>an AFP Special Operation Task Force to combat anti Semitism.

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<v Speaker 1>Comes after the attack against the Adas Israel Synagogue on

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<v Speaker 1>Friday was declared a likely terrorism incident by Victoria Police.

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<v Speaker 1>The designation means the attack will be investigated by a

0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:55.800
<v Speaker 1>joint counter terrorism team combining Victoria Police, the AFP and ASO.

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<v Speaker 1>And The political fallout from the synagogue attack has continued,

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<v Speaker 1>with OP positional leader Peter Dutton launched an extraordinary attack

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.680
<v Speaker 1>on Jewish Labor MP Josh Burns, whose electorate is home

0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 1>to the synagogue. Dunton blame Burns for losing his voice

0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.640
<v Speaker 1>and not speaking up against Palestinians flaring Gaza being brought

0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.960
<v Speaker 1>to Australia. Burns whose office has been the subject of

0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.240
<v Speaker 1>anti Semitic attacks. So he works for his community every

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<v Speaker 1>day and it does not serve the Jewish community to

0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:29.640
<v Speaker 1>be arguing against ourselves, he said. I'm Daniel James seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be back tomorrow