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Speaker 1: As you know yesterday, and we spoke about this yesterday

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Speaker 1: morning on the program. It is a rise in our

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Speaker 1: terror alert level the Prime Minister announced yesterday from possible

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Speaker 1: to probable, and to have a look at some of

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Speaker 1: that in terms of the I suppose primarily the way

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Speaker 1: terror messages are delivered to people susceptible to become indoctrinated

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Speaker 1: and then carry out an attack. Doctor Levi West is

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Speaker 1: research fellow at the Australian National University and he joins

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Speaker 1: me now, Levi, good morning, Mary, made thank you for

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Speaker 1: your time. So we've seen in the past, particularly Islamic State,

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Speaker 1: the indoctrination that occurred through social media and things like Twitter.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if Twitter is still in favor amongst

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Speaker 1: the terrorist community, but no doubt social media is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, social media and the broader online environment play a

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Speaker 2: reasonably substantial role in the radicalization process and sort of change.

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Speaker 2: What's broadly understand is sort of the accessibility of extremist

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Speaker 2: content and propaganda. That's changed the sort of the dynamics

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Speaker 2: of the relationship between an audience and someone who's producing

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Speaker 2: extremist propaganda.

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Speaker 1: All right, so what do we need to know and do?

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Speaker 1: And I see people like Julianmundwest, the Safety Commissioner, calling

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Speaker 1: on social media giants to change algorithms to not have

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Speaker 1: all the information come up if somebody was to look

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Speaker 1: up or stop at a post on for instance, terrorism,

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Speaker 1: and then have the inbox flooded with that sort of material.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean, I guess there's there's there's multiple

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Speaker 2: parts for that, and one is that some tech platforms

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Speaker 2: do a better job than others trying to regulate the

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Speaker 2: kind of content that is accessible on their platforms. For instance,

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Speaker 2: when Islamic State was exploiting Twitter incredibly effectively, Twitter then

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Speaker 2: under its previous leadership was relatively cooperative with government and

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Speaker 2: made story ancial efforts to try and take measures to

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Speaker 2: at least reduce the kind of extremist Islamic State content

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Speaker 2: that was available on Twitter, and that was reasonably effective

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Speaker 2: and collectively across a bundle of platforms and across five

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Speaker 2: by its governments, we made a pretty solid dent in

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Speaker 2: the accessibility of that content. The challenge is that not

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Speaker 2: all platforms are cooperative, or rather platforms vary in their

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Speaker 2: levels of a cooperation, and the terrorist organizations and terrorist

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Speaker 2: movements tend to switch and adapt and evolve in response

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Speaker 2: to the measures that are taken. So Twitter isn't really

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Speaker 2: the predominant platform for accessing material anymore in part because

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Speaker 2: of measures that Twitter took, and it's evolved to move

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Speaker 2: on to more alternity platforms like Telegram, which people might

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Speaker 2: be familiar with. So it's constant game of cat and mouse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, and some of them around, Like I've never

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Speaker 1: heard of gab until today, but that's a platform, a

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Speaker 1: messaging platform, and there are others as well, And perhaps

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Speaker 1: many people haven't heard of Telegram because that's relatively in

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Speaker 1: the scheme of things new.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, reasonably, like unless you're highly online. Gab was established

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Speaker 2: partly in response to fors both Facebook and Twitter to

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Speaker 2: address the extreme right wing content that was happening, particularly

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Speaker 2: in the United States. Gab Loo looks a lot like

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Speaker 2: Twitter and interacts a lot like Twitter, but has an

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Speaker 2: incredibly liberal approach to free speech, so it doesn't really

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Speaker 2: police its content in any way, shape or form, and

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Speaker 2: predominantly wound up as a home for extreme right wing

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Speaker 2: content like the A Nazy material and white supremacist material

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Speaker 2: and that sort of stuff. Telegram is popular amongst a

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Speaker 2: range of different types of terrorist organizations and terrorist movements.

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Speaker 2: It's not as effective as Twitter was. Twitter's public facing,

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Speaker 2: open open accessibility was particularly valuable for reaching broader audiences.

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Speaker 2: You know, the propaganda exercise of a terrorist organization is

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Speaker 2: always sort of multifaceted in that it's both seeking to

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Speaker 2: reach an audience that it seeks to radicalize, but it's

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Speaker 2: also seeking to communicate with a broader audience, like the

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Speaker 2: broader public, not to directly, but to get content into

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Speaker 2: the media cycle and have media outlets discuss terrorist movements

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Speaker 2: and what they believe in and what they're after as

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Speaker 2: a form of promotion and advertising essentially, And it puts

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Speaker 2: media organizations in a bind whereby things happen that are

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Speaker 2: genuinely newsworthy, but in the process wind up discussing and

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Speaker 2: promoting and advertising terrorist organizations. Which is a perpetual dilemma

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Speaker 2: that dates back to the late eighteen hundreds when terrorists

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Speaker 2: were exploiting print, the emerging print media. So that's a

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Speaker 2: perpetual problem it is.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you talk about it or do you not?

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Speaker 1: And what's right to do in that situation, I suppose

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Speaker 1: is what it comes down to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the probably most

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Speaker 2: important messages that came out of the press conference yesterday

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Speaker 2: morning with the Prime Minister in the General and the

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Speaker 2: Director General Security was about the importance of language and moderation,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think they identified both not just politicians,

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Speaker 2: but media and commentation more generally, the value of moderating language.

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Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean not how views. It means not

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Speaker 2: talking about the other side of politics in the same

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Speaker 2: way that you would talk about an enemy in a

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Speaker 2: war context. And that when reporting on these kinds of matters,

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Speaker 2: terrorist types of matters, keeping things reasonably calm and sensible

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Speaker 2: is It's not the tendency of media outlets, it's not

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Speaker 2: the tendency of politicians to do that. But I think

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Speaker 2: if we accept the heightened and sensitive security environment as

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Speaker 2: a significant component of the dynamics of politics, then it

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Speaker 2: becomes sort of incumbent on those of us who seek

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Speaker 2: to be responsible to make sure that we're talking about

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Speaker 2: these things in proportionate and sensible way.

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Speaker 1: Well, the Prime Minister made a point yesterday and it's

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Speaker 1: on the front page of The Australian as a headline today.

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Speaker 1: Green's divisive rhetoric fueling domestic terror threat and the first

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Speaker 1: paragraph of that article reads Anthony Aarbernez. He's accused the

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Speaker 1: Greens of fueling community divisions that have prompted the government

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Speaker 1: to raise the terrorism threat level from possible to probable,

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Speaker 1: saying the part they support the long running protests outside

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Speaker 1: MP's officers is undermining social cohesion. Do you think he's right?

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Speaker 2: I think that's a take on the comments the Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister actually made in the press conference that I watched yesterday.

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Speaker 2: That's probably guilty of the things that we were just

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Speaker 2: talking about. That's not a particularly calm or moderate or

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Speaker 2: sensible interpretation of the point that the Prime Minister was making,

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Speaker 2: which was that yes, there are politicians and I would

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Speaker 2: argue that they just on both sides of the political

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Speaker 2: divide who are happy to sort of score political points

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Speaker 2: on issues that are particularly that can potentially be particularly

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Speaker 2: divisive or sensitive within politics. I don't I think suggesting

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Speaker 2: that the Prime Minister was accusing the Greeds of inciting

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Speaker 2: terrorism is a grossly irresponsible lay to report on the

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Speaker 2: comments that he made and as I as I just said,

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Speaker 2: is literally guilty of the things that both the Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister and the Director General of Security pointed out yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Which was the being hyperbolic about these things doesn't help anyone.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it might get a few extra reads of

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Speaker 2: the story and sell a few more hard copies of

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Speaker 2: the newspaper, but it's not a particularly socially responsible thing

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Speaker 2: to do. The difficult part for any media enterprise, and

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Speaker 2: I have a degree of sympathy with this, is that

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Speaker 2: they are first and foremost business enterprises. And I think

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Speaker 2: everyone understands that, and everyone understands that they first and

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Speaker 2: foremost exist as profit generating enterprises. But for media outlets

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Speaker 2: to maintain the kind of social license that they have

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Speaker 2: to do what they do, there is a sort of

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Speaker 2: a degree of responsibility that they're expected to exercise in

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Speaker 2: the way that they report on things, particularly security matters,

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Speaker 2: And a headline like that and a paragraph like that

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Speaker 2: is not a particularly sensitive or more accurate way to

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Speaker 2: report what was what was actually said in the press conference.

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Speaker 1: Probable now from possible what led to it falling? Because

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Speaker 1: back in the Islamic day state days twenty fourteen, ten

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Speaker 1: years ago, of course it went up to probable. And

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Speaker 1: to me, nothing really has changed. I mean, the world,

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Speaker 1: if anything, the only calmness that came into the world

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Speaker 1: was as a result of COVID and the lockdowns all

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Speaker 1: over the place, So what caused it to fall? And

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Speaker 1: so because social media is still here, isn't it? It

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Speaker 1: was around them, it's around them, so what made the difference.

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Speaker 2: So the lifting of the threat level initially in twenty

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Speaker 2: fourteen was almost in direct response to what was happening

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Speaker 2: in relation to Islamic State, and by the time it

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Speaker 2: was dropped again, the vast majority of the capacity and

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Speaker 2: capability of Islamic State to inspire people to commit attacks

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Speaker 2: in the Western world, which they were achieving quite effectively

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Speaker 2: through twenty sort of fourteen through sixteen had largely been

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Speaker 2: dealt with and eradicated. The Caliphate was on the back foot,

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Speaker 2: not all entirely collapsed. Their media unit that was producing

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Speaker 2: the kind of propaganda that was inspiring Westerners to commit

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Speaker 2: loan actor attacks in the West had largely been destroyed,

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Speaker 2: along with a bundle of the key actors that were

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Speaker 2: driving that. And so as a result that period that

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Speaker 2: everyone will remember where there was frequent loan actor geehrdest

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Speaker 2: operations happening in the Western world on a regular basis

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Speaker 2: of stabbings and vehicle remings. The capacity of Islamic State

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Speaker 2: to continue to do what it was doing to make

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Speaker 2: that happen had largely been dealt with, and so as

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Speaker 2: a result, that particular problem set was not eradicated. They

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Speaker 2: still happened intermittently, but the tempo that it was occurring

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Speaker 2: at had largely diminished, and so as a result, it

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Speaker 2: was possible to sort of look at the environment so

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Speaker 2: that the overall kind of likelihood of an attack had

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Speaker 2: diminished the increase in the threat level. And I think

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Speaker 2: this is the important thing too that sort of gotten

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Speaker 2: skipped in some of the commentary since yesterday's press conferences,

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Speaker 2: that that threat level change is exclusively in relation to terrorism.

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Speaker 2: So this isn't something that's going to thing to do

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Speaker 2: with the war in Ukraine. In some ways it doesn't

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Speaker 2: less so more directly, I guess affected by that. Even

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Speaker 2: yesterday they made a strong point of saying that they

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Speaker 2: didn't lift the threat level after October seventh, after the

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Speaker 2: musket attacks, and that this was not a threat level

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Speaker 2: change in response to the Israeli response to October seven, either,

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Speaker 2: that that wasn't the driver of this, that it was

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Speaker 2: happening across the board, across all of the various ideological

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Speaker 2: motivations that impact the environment. They were increasing the threat

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Speaker 2: level because things had changed across the board, so you know,

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Speaker 2: dropping it down back then was an assessment that the

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Speaker 2: likelihood of a terrorist attack had diminished, and that was

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Speaker 2: a reasonable assessment that certainly in relation to Islamic State.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we find ourselves in a different environment now.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And just sort of to wind back where we

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Speaker 1: started about social media, the attacks this year, all the

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Speaker 1: ones that azo have stopped, and indeed the one that

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Speaker 1: occurred at the Assyrian church all teenage boys, all between

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Speaker 1: around fourteen and nineteen, give or take. And I suppose

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Speaker 1: it is this group that authorities fear being radicalized the most.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in the data was in the detail

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Speaker 2: that was provided yesterday, that seems to be the case.

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Speaker 2: Sort of fourteen to twenty one. I think the top age.

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Speaker 2: You know, the reality is the terrorist organizations, in the

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Speaker 2: broadest of senses, their pitch is targeted at sort of

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Speaker 2: broadly speaking, fourteen or sixteen to twenty five year old men.

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Speaker 2: If you were pitching to recruit to the military or

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Speaker 2: any other fine of enterprise that engages in violence, then

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Speaker 2: that's your primary age cohort that you be going to

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Speaker 2: pitch at. In addition to that, there's a whole bundle

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Speaker 2: of completely conventional vulnerabilities that are part of being a

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Speaker 2: teenager that are exploitable for an extremist organization that teenage

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Speaker 2: boys and teenagers generally are navigating all of the development

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Speaker 2: processes that are about coming to realize or understand where

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Speaker 2: you think you fit in the world, who you consider

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Speaker 2: to be authority, figures, what you believe to be true.

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Speaker 2: All these are normal things. But if you're struggling to

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Speaker 2: get those answers, as some kids do, then what an

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Speaker 2: extremist organization can offer, or rather people perceive that it

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Speaker 2: can offer, is a sense of belonging and a sense

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Speaker 2: of identity and a sense of significance, and a whole

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Speaker 2: bunch of these kinds of things which everyone is looking for.

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Speaker 2: It's the kid who can't find that in a sporting team,

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Speaker 2: cultural organization, church, whatever it might be, but still needs

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Speaker 2: to satisfy that desire that an extrememist organization that's effective

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Speaker 2: shapes its pitch and its propaganda and its claims to

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Speaker 2: satisfy all those needs.

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Speaker 1: Unreal Yeah, now, doctor West, appreciate your time. Thank you no.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Levi West Great Insights, a and U research fellow

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Speaker 1: on the raising of the terror alert from possible to

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Speaker 1: probable yesterday and social media one of the driving forces

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Speaker 1: behind that. Julianman Grant, the E Safety Commissioner calling on

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Speaker 1: social media platforms to regulate their algorithms to make it

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Speaker 1: more difficult. But of course while some may have and

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Speaker 1: gone down that path, others aren't quite so active in

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Speaker 1: doing that, and so the risk is there. The old

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Speaker 1: mantra of be alert, not alarmed still stands, and that's

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Speaker 1: certainly what the pitch is overall,