1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: I love the idea of a simple twist of fate, 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: and it gave me nobody to be angry with. Yes, 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: I was just a simple twist of faith. So no 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: matter what God thrown at me, Yes, I had no 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: one to sik about Debbie Gray. 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: We will never know whether you were one of the 7 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 2: first solidamide victims in this country, but it remains a 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: tantalizing possibility. 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: I think that's why God didn't give me arms. What 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: God no, because I wouldn't have punch too many people out. 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Ruhle. This is Life in Crimes Today is 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: a bonus episode. It's something different. Mostly on this podcast 13 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: we talk about crimes. Today, we're going to talk more 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 2: about a life. And my guest today is someone I've 15 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: known nearly all my life. Her name is Debbie Gray, 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: and Debbie and I were born at the same hospital 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: in Bansdale in East Skippsland in nineteen fifty seven. I 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: have to say it's rude to mentioned a lady's age, 19 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: but Debbie was born a few months earlier than I was. 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: She was born I think in January and I was 21 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: born in April. But our mothers were pregnant roughly the 22 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 2: same time, and we think that our mothers shared the 23 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 2: same doctor in Bensdale, a man called doctor Stan Reid, 24 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: who later became a very prominent pediatrician, but in that era, 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: in the late fifties, was a young doctor making his 26 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: way in the world with his first appointment as a GP. 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: He was a young married fellow, lived in Bensale. He 28 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 2: had a wife and a growing tribe of kids himself, 29 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: which is interesting in itself for reasons that we shall 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: see now. Debbie I first met, I think at school, 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: and we didn't go to the same school at Lake Entrance. 32 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: I went to Lake Tires School and Debbie went to 33 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: Lake Entrance. But every now and again we would do 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: this thing where our school would take a little bust 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: or whatever into like Sentrance, so that we kids from 36 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: a tiny little place could go somewhere bigger, to the 37 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 2: bustling metropolis of Lake Entrance. And that's where I met 38 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: Debbie in early doors, probably grade three, grade four, grade five, 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: And I remember it clearly because you wouldn't forget this 40 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: sparky little person. She was about two or three foot 41 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: highf She's lucky. She was born with no arms and 42 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: very short legs and She would sit on the back 43 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: of the desk and write with her feet and do 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: everything really well with her feet. She could pinch the 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: other kids, she could use scissors. There was nothing she 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: couldn't do. She had dark hair, shock of dark hair. 47 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: She was tough, she was funny, she was bright, and 48 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: obviously very different in some ways and very similar in others. 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: I never forgot Debbie Gray, and I had other reasons 50 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 2: to remember her too, because my mother told me when 51 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: I was a child, she said doctor Reed was a 52 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: great one to hand out tablets and things, and in fact, 53 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 2: he gave me some tablets when I was pregnant, and 54 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: I think she's told me this story, and also my brother, 55 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 2: who was born two years later. He gave me tablets 56 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: and I didn't fancy them. I thought I'd rather just 57 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: have morning sickness than take them, and I threw them out. 58 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: And it was her belief, rightly or wrongly, and she 59 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: might have been wrong that doctor Reed also handed those 60 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: sort of tablets out to other pregnant women, including quite 61 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: possibly Debbie's late mother. Debbie Gray, we will never know 62 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: whether you were one of the first thlidamide victims in 63 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: this country, but it remains a tantalizing possibility, the problem 64 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: being of course that thelidamide was not prescribed officially in 65 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: Australia until well after we were born. But what we 66 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: don't know is whether a right using pediatrician, doctor Stan Reid, 67 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: who later became a very famous pediatrician. He was one 68 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: of the great baby doctor guys anywhere. He was one 69 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: of the pioneers of ultrasounds, and he became quite famous 70 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: and well known and a wonderful achiever and all that. 71 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: But clearly he was making his way in those early 72 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: days at a time when pharmaceuticals were not governed the 73 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: way they are now. It seems to me highly likely 74 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 2: that someone like him would be in constant contact with 75 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: world leaders in pharmaceutical stuff, and quite possibly might have 76 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: gone to conferences overseas in the mid fifties to follow 77 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: his interest in pediatric medicine, and as such he could 78 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: have been the recipient of very early batches of samples 79 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: of this new drug, which we call solidamide, but was 80 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: actually marketed under many different brand names, you know, Distaval, contgen, 81 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: there were many breads names. The first, the Leiderminde baby 82 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: known was born in West Germany in January nineteen fifty six, 83 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: which is one year before U Debbie, And it means 84 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: that that baby's mother took this drug. That baby's mother, 85 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: I think worked at the factory run by the company Gunenthal, 86 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: which made the drug, and the factory workers were given 87 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: samples of the drugs very early. And it follows that 88 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: some of the first victims of Ludamnde were the children 89 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 2: of people who worked for that company. It means that 90 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 2: if this drug was being handed out to factory workers 91 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: in fifty five, it seems to me quite conceivable, perhaps 92 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: not likely, but conceivable that samples were being distributed unofficially 93 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: through medical channels in nineteen fifty six in time for 94 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 2: like doctor Reid to have some and to be hanging 95 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: them out to your mother and to my mother and 96 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 2: to various other people. Debbie Gray, Welcome to Life and Crimes. 97 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 2: Today is your life. The crime is the crime against 98 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: humanity that was the Liddamite. We think you know, we 99 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: know the Liddimbe was a crime. What we don't know 100 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: is whether that's what happened with you and your mum 101 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: or not. What do you think? 102 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: I think it's It has been a really tough life 103 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: and I had wonderful parents and a really supportive brother 104 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: in my little brother. 105 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 2: Jim, who you speak of very highly at all times. 106 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: I can see you're almost tearing up. It's not many 107 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: things make you tear. 108 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: Up, mate, not at all. But losing that young man 109 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: was probably the tragedy. That's a crime, yeah, crime on 110 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: humanity because I didn't realize I had a disability till 111 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: he died. Really, you know, I just never I don't 112 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: think the word ever ended my lips. 113 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: Tell me this. Your parents, like you know Lenny Roe's 114 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 2: parents and others, they're not they're not unique, but they 115 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: are in next to you. But they just took you 116 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: on straight on. They ignored all suggestions made by professionals 117 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: or wherever that you should go to your valor or 118 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: somewhere and stay there forever. What were your what did 119 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: your parents do? 120 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: This is our daughter, yep, and we're taking her home 121 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: as simple as that. 122 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: What were your parents' names? 123 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: Cam, Cammi little Cami, who had the best smile. And 124 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: Bimbo they called Ray Gray, Bimbo, Ray Gray. 125 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: So now your dad, he was here from a fishing family, 126 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: fishing Lakes Entrance in those days. Of course, generations, big 127 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: fishing town. And he later on drove trucks which were 128 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: probably delivered. 129 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: Fish maybe no, no, totally out of the fishing industry altogether. 130 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: And he brought truck and Carter timber Carter timber to 131 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: now an hour, Yes, Puts timberyard, and he would cut 132 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: from there to Crawdon Timberyard. 133 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: And did you used to go with him? 134 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: I used to be in that truck all the time. 135 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: I'm very much Tomboyd attitude. 136 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: So you'd be in the truck in the jockey seat 137 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: or on his knee or whatever, and driving down the road. 138 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: I suppose I'd start out in the in the passenger seat, 139 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: but many times I ended up on his knee. Yeah, 140 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: driving with my shoulders the wheel. You know, he didn't care. 141 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: They were the days that and Dad always had a 142 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: lot of faith in me because he had a lot 143 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: of faith in me. You can do it? Yeah, good, 144 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: you know you can do it? 145 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: Well? You could, you were marble. 146 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: He just he built my attitude up too, even if 147 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: I physically thought I couldn't do it to begin with, 148 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: I had the attitude to go, well, we'll sorted out. 149 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: So you were just a little girl. You were a 150 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: little little girl, because you know, I was a little 151 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: little girl. You were. You're not tall now, but you were. 152 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: You were because I just don't have femurs. Yeah, exactly, 153 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: I have no femurs. So the tibia, the top of 154 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: the tibia is not connected into the knee that would 155 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: be at the bottom of your fema. Okay, that knee 156 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: connection is now up at my hip. Oh, I've got you, yes, 157 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: which is why I've. 158 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: Got the joints different. 159 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: The hip joints are different. 160 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: So here you are. You go often with your dad 161 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: in the truck. Ye, you weren't always at school, clearly. 162 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: Up until five and before four I went to kinder. 163 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: You became well known to all the truckies at the 164 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: truck stops. Absolutely, can you remember that? 165 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: No? I mean I remember missing around down at Crowdon, 166 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, at the yard and running around. Don't get 167 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: run up by that truck, Debbie. You know. Yeah, they 168 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: don't remember me a lot more than I remember them. 169 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: It's you sad, because I do get approached a lot. Oh, Debbie, 170 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: how are you going? And I look up at people, 171 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: and now I'm older, I'm quite happy to go. Yeah, 172 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: but who the hell are you? You know? I'm sorry, 173 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: but it might have been three years old back when 174 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: you remember me, and because of our shape, you remember 175 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: who I am. But you look like every other buggery 176 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: out there. 177 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: You know that's true. 178 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Can you give me your name? 179 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: You know so you've mentioned your father. He always told you. 180 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: You can do it. You can do it, you can 181 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: do it, you can get it in your head, you 182 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: can do it. You can do it. 183 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: What a bed your mum? 184 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: My mum was very much the same, and she had 185 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: the same attitude whatever. There was no pandering me. So 186 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: one day we were down at nanon Pas having a visit, 187 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: and Mom must have had a friend there beside her 188 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: at the table and nanny's at the stove or whatever, 189 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: and a friend and Mum told me this story. And 190 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: the friend said to Mom, God, keimmy, god, kemmy. Debbie's 191 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: climbing the tree. And Mom looked out and I'm climbing 192 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: the lemon tree. I'm trying to get up on the 193 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: first branch of the lemon tree. I mean it's only 194 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: three ft two foot off the ground. The second branch 195 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: is probably three foot off the ground. 196 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: How did you do it? 197 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: Anyway? I got up there and Mom turned to her friend. No, 198 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: she's all right, She'll only four. Once Mom said the 199 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: friends George. 200 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: Just just dropped. 201 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: That was her attitude, you know, let her stuff up. 202 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: She's gonna you know, she's going to have it. She 203 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: needs to feel the pain because she won't stop otherwise. 204 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: That was my attitude until I had to prove I 205 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: could and do it anything, even if it ended up 206 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: in a bit of pain. 207 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what you'd. 208 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: Just saying, No, deb you can't do that wasn't good enough. 209 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: I remember seeing that in that Little Girl at Lake 210 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: sent France in the mid sixties, and you're sitting on 211 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,119 Speaker 2: the back of the desk fierce. You're showing off. Undoubtedly. 212 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: Also at that stage, I was supposed to be using 213 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: my artificial arms, so I was actually supposed to be 214 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: sitting in the seat, yes, and writing with my You 215 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: weren't doing that when I know, So I probably jumped 216 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: up on the back so I could get my feet 217 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: over it, exactly. I probably did that. Yes, I can't, 218 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: because through primary school I had the artificial arms. Yeah, 219 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: that I hated profusely. 220 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you used to take them off. 221 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, to read about it. 222 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: You were very bad because you would have them on 223 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 2: if you wanted to hit someone. 224 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: I think that's why God didn't give me arms. God 225 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: I didn't know because I would have punched too many 226 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: people OUTI now. 227 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: So how was it at school that that school I 228 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: remember visiting occasionally? What was it like? 229 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: Look, I got to say, ben So high school was 230 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: just a great post for me to be. 231 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: So from Lake you went on the Arlie Armstrong's bus 232 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 2: or your mates on the bus. 233 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: And then they would do the Nanna run. We always 234 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: had to do then run. So we turn off at 235 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: Nanguna there, go around that Nonguna road and come out 236 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: on the Swan Reach road and then come back up. 237 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: So we were the longest ride on the bus. 238 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: And because you had like sentrance kids that you've gone through, 239 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: I was just carried you through school just as Rember 240 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: anything new? Yeah, okay, which was you remember your school 241 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 2: days as pretty good. 242 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: Times and a lot of my friends. Yeah, it wasn't 243 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: to say that there wasn't the odd smarter. 244 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 2: If I may say, you can, I don't think we're 245 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: going to get suited. 246 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: There was the odd smarter? Is it like to give me? 247 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: You know? 248 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 2: Well? 249 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: I had one girl that didn't like the fact that 250 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: I found her brother quite cute and takes me breath 251 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: away when I think of how nasty she was, really, 252 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: how horribly nasty she was. But I'd put up with 253 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: the odd nasty person before the odd one because I 254 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: really had a good group of people around me in 255 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: the centrance and benstuff. But this chick, I got quite 256 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: sweet on her brother on the bus and we were 257 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: going to sit together until she demanded, you're not sitting 258 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: with a cripple. Yeah, right, And kind of that was 259 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: the end of anything ever developing at high school in 260 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: those years. Through that, she used to always get things. 261 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, you get a joke on the bus and 262 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: you start passing it around or whatever, and she would 263 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: just stand up. So don't show Debbie. 264 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 2: Is that right? 265 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: So they were afraid of her because she was a 266 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: nasty pasty. They would never show me. And one night 267 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: I had the best joke on a bit of paper 268 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: and I passed it across the aisle. Don't show, oh beautiful. 269 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: So she got up though, because she used to sit 270 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: in the queen Bee seat up the back. She got up, 271 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: shutted down the aisland, snatched it out of one of 272 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: the girl's arms. Held it up in the air because 273 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: I'm only three foot eight and I didn't have a reach. 274 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: So she held it up in the air and said, 275 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: get it, you know, went back to her seat. She's 276 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: sitting in the middle of the of the aisle, and 277 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: I got out of my seat and thought, stuff this, 278 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: I'm getting my joke back. So I went back up 279 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: and right in front of her knees, and I was saying, 280 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: you know, give a sip back, you get it. She's 281 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: got her arms up in the air, She's got everything 282 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: reaching up in the air as she's holding it upath 283 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: like this, give it back. And she didn't give it back. 284 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: So the artificial arm just went back and I came 285 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: in with a whack and it's metal. Oh it's a hook, 286 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: one of those metal hooks, and smashed into a rib. 287 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: I had enough. Bus driver just stopped and watched me 288 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: finish her off. It just stopped and anyway, but I 289 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: obviously caused some pain in the rib. I thought I'd 290 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: broke it. I don't know to this day, but the 291 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: thing is to punch her. I had to take my 292 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: whole body forward and punch. But as she collapsed forward 293 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: on her knees, you know, she's jammed my head between 294 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: her belly or her boobs and her thighs, right, because 295 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: my face is down squashed into her thigh. Well, how 296 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: was I going to get out of that? 297 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 2: I don't know. 298 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: Oh, okay, So I took a great hunk and. 299 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 2: Well she'll never forget you. 300 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: Well, no she didn't. 301 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: And so that was that. We stood out in your 302 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: school days. 303 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: Oh mate, that was a yeah. 304 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: Now you you were well known around Gibson. 305 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: For sure, and I was treated well. 306 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you treated well. I mean, I know you were 307 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: actually mating with a lot of the local rock bands, 308 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: the guys in rock bands, musicians. You like music, and 309 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: musicians liked you. You know, you'rhythm Debbie. You've got around 310 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: to a lot of rock events and concerts and parties 311 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: and all over the journey, and you've become quite familiar 312 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: with a lot of people because, as you say, they 313 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: never forget you well for obvious reasons. Now, one of 314 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: these old mates in the rock scene is Jimmy Barnes, 315 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: and he's entourage and at one point you went to 316 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: the green room after he'd performed here in Melbourne, Is 317 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: that right? 318 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: What happened? I did? Well, you know, I'd been slightly 319 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: intoxicated boogin drinking dance and drinking dancing, and it all 320 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: ended and I wasn't ready to end. So I went 321 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: over to the backstage doorway and I said, hey, come on, 322 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: let me out. I can't. I'm not going to do 323 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: any harm, you know, let me in. Let me in. 324 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: And Jimmy must have been just back a bit over 325 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: and he turns around. He goes, hey, I've got this 326 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: chick at the at the door out their bounds is saying, well, 327 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: we let her in, and Jimmy just looked down and 328 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: he looked at me, and he looked over and he goes, 329 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: let her in. She looks armless, and he let me in. 330 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 2: Let you in. Shocking joke, but. 331 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: Jo great joke. Didn't mind, didn't care. 332 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: And they were all off their rains. 333 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, Mom and dad. 334 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: Mum and dad were there. 335 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: Mom and dad were there, and they just accepted anything 336 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: that boy did. She loved him like and I talked 337 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: to them for a little while. But the horrible thing, 338 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: because I'm on young twenties and I'm standing in front 339 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: of them, swaying all over the place. I'm not always 340 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: like this. I didn't want me because they could see 341 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: what boys and all that were doing. Yes, and I'm 342 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: thinking I'm not going to do that in front of them. 343 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: No, you were respectable. 344 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: And I was trying to be fisherman's daughter. That's right. 345 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: So you know, anyway, I tried to bluff them into 346 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: the fact that I'm not always like this. I want 347 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: Jimmy Barnes to write a song about me. 348 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 2: Well he might, now, so you get to be grown up. 349 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: Your three foot eight which is a meter and a 350 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: bit in the three foot eight and a half three 351 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: eight and a half. 352 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: I used to. 353 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 2: Sprout like Peter Bakos, like he used to say that 354 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: extra half inch means a lot when you've got to 355 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: stand on a chair about your So you get to 356 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: your twenties, you do the best you can. You said, Margaret, 357 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 2: I'm going overseas. Yeah, is that right? 358 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: As quick as that? Because I went into a rehabilitation 359 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: center from school. Yeah, we're at the one in Spring 360 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: Road here, the motor accident one that is Oh, that's 361 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: the first Commonwealth rehab center. It was a Conwealth rehab 362 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: center that they brought up from Mount Martha used to 363 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: be a rehab center down there. Well, they brought it 364 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: up and brand new built purpose this building in Springvale Road, Okay, 365 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: And it was a living so for country people. So 366 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: I had accommodation at the back. 367 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 368 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: So at fifteen I got moved up there, I see, 369 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: and lived there for seven months. 370 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: And did you at that stage, I still trying to 371 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: equip you with artificial limbs and. 372 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: All boy friends escape one night over water. 373 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: You have a bit of help, Yeah, I had a 374 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: bit of help. Goodness. 375 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, one boy behind his hand up me, mum pushing out, 376 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: the other one sitting up on the top of the 377 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: fence and he's got hold of me neck. We got 378 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: me out. I think I was going for a pregnancy 379 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: test and I didn't want to tell him at the rehab. 380 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: Is that a fact? Well, I'm glad your mum's not 381 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: either here. 382 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: That's so am. I I always said I was never 383 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: printing the book until I didn't have mum and dad anymore. 384 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: Fair enough, And I used to say it as a joke. 385 00:18:59,520 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: But here we are. 386 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: Well. One of the reasons we're here, Debbie, is that 387 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: you have written the book of your life, which. 388 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: She's called simple twist of fate. 389 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: A simple twist of fate and that is a line from. 390 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: A rock song, isn't it a line from Bob Dylan? 391 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, that's title of his song. And I think 392 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: if you listen to the song, the lyrics don't really 393 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: fit in with my life. But I love the idea 394 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: of a simple twist of fate and it gave me 395 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: nobody to be angry with. Yes, I was just a 396 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: simple twist of faith. So no matter what God thrown 397 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: at me, yes, I had no one to sook about. 398 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's your take on your situation. 399 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: Well, that the attitude I grew up with. 400 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: You did, and you know, the courtesy of your parents really. 401 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: And your brother Jim. Yeah, they're both great. 402 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 2: That book has a cover, and the cover is an 403 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: old black and white photograph. I've seen a lot of 404 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: black and white photographs of my time, Debbie working in newspapers. 405 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: It is one of the more striking pictures. Tell us 406 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: how you came buy that picture and where it was taken. 407 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 1: When I was traveling the world on my own, what 408 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: I had actually put a backpack on my back nineteen 409 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: eighty five, gym was always around me. I wanted to 410 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: give him a life because I felt people felt that 411 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: I was a burden to him. So I needed to 412 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: kind of prove the world that I didn't have Jim 413 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: around me all the time because I was asking him 414 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: to be. He just wanted to be. So I bought 415 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: a one way ticket around the world and ended up 416 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: flying off to America, traveled around there for a while, 417 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: got up to Canada, went back down to Mexico, went 418 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: back to bottom California, San Francisco, jumped a Greyhound bus 419 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: to New York diagonally straight across. And I don't know 420 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: if I should extend on that trip, but that was 421 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: a really good trip. 422 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 2: Well you could censor it a bit, but not too much. 423 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: Well, I smoked a lot of pot, did it on 424 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: that trip because you. 425 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: Were a bit of a rock check Like check now, 426 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: I've got to steer your back book cover And that 427 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: photograph tell us about that that was. 428 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: Insane in San Francisco. And I have a girlfriend who 429 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: disputes when that was taken, so we'll leave it in 430 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: what she recalls, which was nineteen eighty eight. I came 431 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: back to Australia and I wanted to take off again, 432 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: so I took a girlfriend with me and we went. 433 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: We bought a car. Eventually we just bought a car 434 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: and lived in the car to travel around America. And 435 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: then she had her grandmother die. She had to fly 436 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: back home, and she suggests that's what happened because she 437 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: wasn't at that concert. I decided I wanted to go 438 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: to this big blues concert that was underneath the San 439 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: Francisco Bridge. Well, I believe I've got good rhythm with music, 440 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: and when I'm dancing, I mean I'm with it. I'm 441 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: in the moment, and he seemed to enjoy that. 442 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 2: Are we talking about Albert Collins? 443 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: We are talking about Albert Collins, one. 444 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: Of the great blues guitarists of all. 445 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: The time, absolutely and a beautiful person. Not that I 446 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: really got to know him as a beautiful person, but 447 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: he I bored me off the stage because I'm at 448 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: the front, just under the rope, and I'm kind of 449 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,239 Speaker 1: just under that, and nobody's wanted to push me back 450 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: because they knew I had to get up front just 451 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: to even see something fair enough. So I was allowed 452 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: to boogie there and on boog in, and next minute 453 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: he just did this almighty leap off off the stage, 454 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: and I thought he's going to land on me. 455 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 2: This guy, Just to put it in context, he was 456 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: a black guitarist. He was a striking looking figure, a 457 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: bit like Samuel L. Jackson, the Factor, and he was 458 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: he was not as famous as Jimmy Hendrix, but his 459 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 2: own in his own sphere. 460 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: He was in the blues world. 461 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: He was Jimmy Hendrix of Blood. He was a big deal. 462 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: So he's jumped off the stage with. 463 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: His Yeah, got his guitar and he's in the. 464 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: Middle of a song and he's hitting the notes. 465 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: The next minute he does his fly through the air 466 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: and I kind of stepped back because I thought he 467 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: was going to land on me. Did he know I 468 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: was there? I'm thinking, you know, like. 469 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: Even how did that go? 470 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: And of course, I mean the photo is him forehead 471 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: to forehead, and that's what he did. He just came down. 472 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: So he starts, he gets right down next to you 473 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 2: and starts. 474 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: Playing in front of me, and he's looking me straight 475 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: in the face. 476 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: And while this is happening, someone in the crowd thinks 477 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: this is a great photograph and takes it. 478 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: Takes a fabulous photo. She must have leaned over that 479 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: white rope and taken it along sideways along to the left. 480 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: So somebody's taken a camera. This is an era when 481 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: you know there's no camera phones. Cameras are big and heavy. 482 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: It's not digital. And I didn't have a camera. 483 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: Like either a professional or am a photographer. Was an 484 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: amateur who had a camera. 485 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: There a camera she took a couple of quite a 486 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: few didn't know she takes. And I had no idea, 487 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: and I just thought, this is a moment that I'll 488 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: remember for the rest of my life. And nobody's going 489 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: to believe this. Nobody's going to believe I've had Albert Collins. 490 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: And at one stage where forehead to forehead, he's sweat 491 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: stripping on my face. Yes, okay, and we are booging. 492 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: We are anyway, And I had a fabulous time. 493 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: And what happened next, well, we. 494 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: Went I finished the concert of and leaving the concert, 495 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: it's only a gate, you've got to walk out, and 496 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: I'm amongst the masses of people and I'm walking out 497 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: of the farm gate and somebody tapped me on the 498 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: shoulder and I looked up and it was a German. 499 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: I think she was German. She said, I've just got 500 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: some great photos of you. And I said, where and 501 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: she said when Albert Collins jumped down at you, I said, 502 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: oh god. She said, where can I send them? I said, mate, 503 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: I've left Australia for a year. I've just started. 504 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: I haven't got an address. 505 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: I haven't got an address. She said, well, where's your 506 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: address at home? Said, well, in twelve months or so, 507 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to be back in Lake Entrance, and here 508 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: is the address. And so I gave her that address 509 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: where my dog was still living, so she could have 510 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: got the mail. But anyway, when I finally got home. 511 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: A year later, what happened? 512 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: And then a year after that, so two years after 513 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: the after the event, what happens. I go to my 514 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: letter box and I pull out the letter and this 515 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: letter from Germany, and there's these photos, black and white 516 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: photos that she'd taken me. 517 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 2: I just stood there. 518 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: I think I sat down on my nature strip and 519 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: just went no, crying magnificently. I remember that I remember 520 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 1: getting those. 521 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: Letters such good pictures, and they're really. 522 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: Good pictures on one stage, in close to him, and 523 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: then we're back of having a boogie. And then but 524 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: the fact that that's the cover of your book and 525 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: the cover of my book is where we I think 526 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: we've connected forward to forehead and I had a single 527 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: it top on which immediately shows there's no arm on 528 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: the right side. Fair enough, and I thought it really 529 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: shows the people with disabilities could be found anywhere. 530 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Good, it's very good. 531 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: So when I looked at that, I thought, I'm so 532 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: pleased that was there, because I was always about showing 533 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: wherever I tried, I wanted to show that people with 534 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: disabilities didn't always need to be pampered. 535 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And you. 536 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: Were and we got out and loved life like the 537 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: rest of them. 538 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: You were more the bull terrier, pup, the poodle I have. 539 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: Exactly. You were well known and I grew up with 540 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: two brothers. 541 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: Well, that's right. So it's been a hard life. It's 542 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: not easy tough. 543 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: I've arettend it's easy. Yeah you do, but if you 544 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: don't do that, it becomes hard. 545 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've you know, it's had ups and downs. But 546 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 2: along the way, you've you had a daughter, Yes. 547 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: I have. I've got a beautiful da beautiful daughter. And 548 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: we just got married, did she. 549 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: We've got hope for the future. There. How old is 550 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: your daughter? Now? 551 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: Thirty two? She married another lady called Stacy. Yeah, who is. 552 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: We're just coming to terms with each other. And I 553 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: love her very much and she's more than welcome in 554 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: my family. 555 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 2: Now. 556 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: I've got two daughters, and you know, life goes on. 557 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: It was a lot like me. 558 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a. 559 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: Few longer heads here and there. She's half like a mother. 560 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 2: Like a mother. Yes, And what got you to the 561 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: idea of right now? I know you and I have 562 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: discussed you writing a book a long time ago, and 563 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 2: you've You've done it, and. 564 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: You did taken me over thirty years. 565 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: To get around it. Well, truly put pen to paper. 566 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: I was still working for the Navy when I started 567 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: that book. Tell us about I started, well, I started 568 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: doing public speaking because the guy he rang me up 569 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: one day when I was working for the Navy, He said, 570 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,479 Speaker 1: can you come down and talk to our students. So 571 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: he had me down there to talk about disability and abilities. 572 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: You know what we can do. It's in our head, 573 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's really in your head. And so he 574 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: got me to come down and that started my circuit 575 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: of schools talking to schools about ability. 576 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: When was that, roughly in the eighties. Tell us about 577 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 2: working for the Navy. 578 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: I loved that it's my best. At the time, I 579 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: didn't realize it was the job of a lifetime. 580 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 2: And how did it come about public service? 581 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: Because I couldn't get a job in the private sector. 582 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: All the interviews I went to. Once I got to 583 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: an interview, that was everything stopped after that, even locally, well, 584 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: I was in Melbourne, I left local fift. 585 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, so you stayed out at your stayed I 586 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: was gone. 587 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: I was gone from Lakes. I was never going to 588 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: get a job down there. 589 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 2: And you got a job in the public service, and then. 590 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: From the public service. First one was with the aircraft 591 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: factory dead to Port, Melbourne. Yeah, but my I was 592 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: on just a typist in a typing pool. 593 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: You could so you could type very ably with your 594 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 2: feet thirty odd yeah, thirty yeah good, better than faster 595 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: and more accurate than. 596 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: My average typist. Yeah yeah, I could do thirty three 597 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: thirty four words a minute or so. 598 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: That's enough for a government job. 599 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. 600 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: And you've held that job for a farewell. 601 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: I held it for a while. At some stage there. 602 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: When I was eighteen, I moved back to sales, so 603 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: I beat in Melbourne three years. 604 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 2: That's when the band goes new you. 605 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: It's it's when I got around Sale with I remember 606 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: that pubs on Saturday night. 607 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, mid seventies, mid seventies, so ye know, I. 608 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,239 Speaker 1: Got to know people in Sale, A couple of them. 609 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: I'm still good friends with, you know to this day. Yeah, 610 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: even though work was really hard down there. 611 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: I think there was a band called Unchained. It was 612 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: and I think how called unchained because one of them, 613 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: I'm going to say, the lead guitarist or the singer 614 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 2: had sadly been locked up in prison for a little 615 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: while when they led him out, he's been unchained. Yeah. 616 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: I suspect that they might have had a song about you. 617 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: Well I had I went back to Melbourne. They might 618 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: have did it without. 619 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: Me, don't we They might have the dirty dogs. 620 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: Because I ended up getting myself a volunteers job at 621 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: the Sale Hospital in the records department at medical records, 622 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: and we were redoing all the medical records hither and 623 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: I and then the government decided they'd give me a 624 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: job and I got a job at cres Nit Factory. 625 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: It's clothing factory. So I had to leave this really 626 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: stimulating job with the Base hospital, even though I won 627 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: being paid it was a job to me. I was 628 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: there nine o'clock every morning. I didn't leave till Heather left. 629 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: And anyway, they pulled me out and said, no, you 630 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: can't do there. We're sending you to work. And I 631 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: had to go to work at Chris Knit Factory and 632 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: in sale pulling threads, oh dear, just pulling threads off. 633 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: When they knit the man's on, there's an extra thread 634 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: and I had to pull the threads off. And I 635 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: sat there with an ittle, actually disabled woman. It'll be 636 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: very sweet and that's that's fine, but that was my 637 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: you know a lot. I had to sit with her 638 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: and no conversation. I wasn't allowed to near a sewing 639 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: machine and I've been sewing at home for years a 640 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: knitting machine. Sorry, And I had to stay just pulling 641 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: threads bits of cotton off. So anyway, I spacked the 642 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: dummy from that and said to Mom and Dad, I'm 643 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: going back to Melbourne. 644 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: Ah, did you so? 645 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: I did tell us about Jim, my little brother, come 646 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: with me. 647 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: So Jim is a bit younger than you. Yes, tell 648 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: us a bit about Jim and your how your brother, 649 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 2: you know, he helped you and was your best matin Anyways. 650 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: The thing with Jim and I, we were like twins. 651 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: We were like twins. I cared for him as he 652 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: cared for me, And no matter how I tried to 653 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: break away from him coming in to do dishes or 654 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: whatever he do around my house to eating up because 655 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: not all we didn't live together all the time, I'd 656 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: live with other people. And it's the one stage I 657 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: was living on my own and Jim was just there 658 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: to make sure things were right. He'd wash the dishes. 659 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: If I'd lift the dishes out and come and the 660 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: dishes aren't done, he washed the dishes. He'd sweep the 661 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: floor anything. He never made my bed, which I have 662 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: never had to deal with him, Jee when you could 663 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: have made the bed too, You know, No, it wasn't 664 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: like that, but he just really So the trip around 665 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: the world was catalyst was Jim. He was having a 666 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: lot of trouble with things, and it was I was 667 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: finding it very hard. So I abandoned him. Basically, I 668 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: just support a ticket around the world, thinking if I'm 669 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: not here and he can't get to me, he's got 670 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: to find a life. 671 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 2: Right. Oh, that was a very noble thing. You left 672 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: so that he wasn't welded to your side and felt 673 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: that he had to stay there. 674 00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: That was my idea. I didn't want to fly off 675 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: around the world on my own. I was very scared. Yeah, 676 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: I was, how are we You're only eighty five? What 677 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: do we say, early twenties? 678 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you were just early twenties. 679 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: And Jeff was also having the same trouble, similar troubles, 680 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: and there were things were happening that shouldn't have been 681 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, if I'm the catalyst of all this, 682 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: time to go yep. So I told it one way. 683 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 2: When you came back and you worked the places you've 684 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: just told us about, when did did your life with 685 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: Jim sort of resume? Brother Jim? 686 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: Well, as it turns out, when I got back home 687 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: from my one year gone, Gym wasn't far behind me, 688 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: wasn't he. He'd actually flown out within a month of 689 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: me leaving, really to do the same thing and catch 690 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: up with me. And there are records to state then 691 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: in actual factor during that year, at one stage we 692 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: were three minutes apart a he Throw airport. Yeah, I 693 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: flew out to Greece as he flew in from New York. 694 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: In that year, people found out had to believe never 695 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: we know mobile phones. No, you didn't know. 696 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: You only had a postcard. They could have taken how 697 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: long to get through stards never come back to me 698 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: because I was always on the move. I just, you know, 699 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: could disposed guard to the frosts to say I'm not 700 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: dead yet, you know exactly, unless to say I've made 701 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: it here and there. 702 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 2: And somewhere else. 703 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: And they just trusted me, and you. 704 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: Got home and then he got home. And wait, when 705 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: when did you lose Jim? 706 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 1: God, No, it's terrible to think I'm thinking about this, 707 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: but it was nineteen ninety. 708 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: Five, so he died pretty young. 709 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: He's been dead thirty two. Emma's now thirty two and 710 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: he died when she was two and. 711 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: A half, so he died pretty young. 712 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: So everybody's going to have to do their own. 713 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, but obviously he was only thirty, she. 714 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: Was two and a half. He was like surrogate dad. 715 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: I've got some good photos of them. She was a 716 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: lot younger. Sadly she doesn't really remember him today, but 717 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: he was like surroy good dad. 718 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: So looking back at your parents, him as that killing 719 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: and yeah, and Jim. 720 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: And my bigger brother Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. 721 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I didn't know he was. 722 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: Four years older than me. 723 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 2: They all did a good job. 724 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: And so my teenager and my brother Jeff taking me 725 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: to serve club dancers and things like that, and I 726 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: had a ball for the day diying. I idolized him. 727 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: But the will the family doesn't see it that way. 728 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: With the book, the. 729 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: Family, the family, the family is all dead. Now, yeah, 730 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,959 Speaker 1: you are the fan, the last man standing. I asked 731 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: somebody about it. Why do you think that, he says, 732 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: because nobody's got an internal fortitude like you. 733 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, And also you might have stayed. You smoked 734 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 2: a bit of but probably not a lot of tobacco. 735 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: Oh no, full the backer smoker, Oh you were. Oh god, 736 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: My mum and dad were smokers. We all smoked. 737 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 2: Oh fair enough, we all smoked. 738 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: You remember his children sitting in the car going down 739 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: in Melbourne to fit for artificial arms, and we threw 740 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: her in the back going can we wind the windows? 741 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: That will be finished soon, you know? And so we 742 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: all ended up smokers. In my teenagehood, I got led 743 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: a little bit further. 744 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 2: Oh right, I can, Debbie. You've spent a lot of 745 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 2: years writing the book, I made another, and then at 746 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: some point I think you've reached out and got some 747 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:20,479 Speaker 2: professional help. 748 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: From thirty year for thirty odd year, well thirty years now, 749 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: but tell us about it, well, twenty years. I just 750 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: plodded along with it with the book. Yeah, just twenty 751 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: odd years, typing away each night and thinking about, you know, 752 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: where my life had been and how I'd done it. 753 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: And people kept asking me, oh god, how did you 754 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: do that? And how did you do this? And then 755 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: someone else said you should write a book. And I 756 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: was about twenty four to twenty. 757 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,439 Speaker 2: Five when you start, yeah, okayah. 758 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: I was about twenty four to twenty five. They said 759 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: he should write a book. I thought, oh, that'd be 760 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: a good idea. Stop me answering these stupid questions, right, 761 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: you know? So I started writing about what I did 762 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: where I did. I had to feel a bit guilty 763 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: because by then I had a bit of pipe. So 764 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: really I wanted to write an honest book though, and 765 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: why was I doing this? And I was trying to 766 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: fit in everywhere I went. I wanted to show that 767 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: I was cool, I was all right, I wasn't a 768 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: cripple that needed nurse mating so I joined a lot 769 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: of different crowds to show that I had that tenacity. 770 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 2: You've sat on the back of the odd motorbike. 771 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: I've done that on the numerous occasions, numerous Gonna be 772 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,439 Speaker 1: a good seat, though, I don't like the new seats 773 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: where you sit in. 774 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 2: The big Harley system. 775 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: No. I liked that. I really used to like the 776 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: hond of gold Wings. I see love the Honda gold Wings. 777 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: I really know. 778 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 2: And is that Is there a bit of that in 779 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: the book? 780 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: I don't know where there is. I think I spoke 781 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: of the men that I really kind of desperately wanted 782 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: to have a partnership with for some reason. They all 783 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: rode bikes. But I think I wrote about a couple. 784 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: Your book came as it covers a lot of ground. 785 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 2: So you're going to have published several hundred copies and 786 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 2: then as the demand grows, you'll publish more. 787 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: Well, I'm hoping, Britman, I need a little bit of 788 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: money at the moment. Certainly didn't help me, you know, no, 789 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: it didn't. 790 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 2: That's the thing, isn't it. We have a situation here 791 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 2: where where a lot of people that you know, some 792 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 2: of them because they've born a couple of years after 793 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 2: you two, three, four years after you, so well looked 794 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 2: after they got a big payout that was negotiated in 795 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: part by Peter Gordon, now of Gordon Legal, who have persuaded, 796 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 2: really persuaded is the term the English firm Distillers Limited 797 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: or Diagio, which is the parent company to hand over 798 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: tens of millions of dollars YEP to victims in Australia 799 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: who before that it only had very small payouts. But 800 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,479 Speaker 2: sadly you and a handful of other people never made 801 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 2: the cuts. It's quite a striking fact and it does 802 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 2: make you wonder whether, to return to our previous point, 803 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: whether the ldamite was got to Australia through back channels 804 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six, and if no, no in nineteen 805 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 2: fifty six, because you were born in nineteen fifty. 806 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: Seven, it had to be in the first. 807 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,479 Speaker 2: So it would seem to be a possibility, but one 808 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 2: that's probably unprovable at this distance, unless someone somewhere can 809 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: uncover some documents or a diary or some that that's 810 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 2: where somebody's recorded handing them to so and so and 811 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 2: so and so and so. These are questions that could 812 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,879 Speaker 2: be put to several people, but one of them might 813 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 2: be the surviving sons and daughters of doctor Stan Reid, 814 00:38:53,520 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: if they possibly have their father's diaries. It's a very 815 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 2: faint chance, but one, and I'll look into Thank you, 816 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: Debbie Gray. You've told us about your life story. You've 817 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 2: done your book a simple twist of fate. You won't 818 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 2: see thousands of them, you'll see dozens of them out 819 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: in the marketplace. And it has a striking cover photograph 820 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 2: of you and Albert Collins, the late great blues guitarist. 821 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 2: Thank you, Debbie Gray. 822 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: It's been my pleasure, and I really want people to 823 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: know that I didn't do this book as a grandiose 824 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: look at me. It was a book to make people 825 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: think about disability, yep, and the way they perceive what 826 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: you can do. Oh, she's got no arms. She won't 827 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: be able to do this or that and that. And 828 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: I really want to show the world that don't be 829 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,879 Speaker 1: locked into what you think you do with your arms. 830 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: If they're gone, you're not going to be able to 831 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: do it, you know. Like, so that's what I was 832 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: out in the world trying to do. 833 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,879 Speaker 2: You've always done it since you were three years old. 834 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: Maybe I've been successful in something. 835 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 2: Now you have, Yeah, no doubt. 836 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: My daughter is definitely my greatest success. 837 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,720 Speaker 2: Good it's good on you. 838 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: Thanks WI great, Thank you, Andrew. 839 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald 840 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 2: Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. 841 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot 842 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 2: com dot au forward slash Andrew rule one word. For 843 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 2: advertising inquiries, go to news podcasts sold at news dot 844 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 2: com dot au. That is all one word news podcast's sold. 845 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 2: And if you want further information about this episode, links 846 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 2: are in the description.