Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Britney Saunders and welcome to Big Business, the
Speaker 1: place where business is far from boring.
Speaker 2: And today I'm recording on gadigal Land.
Speaker 1: Now I somehow manage to build an empire from the
Speaker 1: garage underneath my house and I'm here to share it
Speaker 1: all with you, from the winds, the mistakes, the challenging
Speaker 1: times and the funny moments in between. So, whether you're
Speaker 1: in business already, perhaps you're not in the game at all,
Speaker 1: Maybe you're just looking for some inspo, or you simply
Speaker 1: just want to hear the teat when it comes to
Speaker 1: running a business, this is the podcast for you. Coming
Speaker 1: up on today's episode, I'm joined by a very special
Speaker 1: guest and my mouth is actually watering at the theme
Speaker 1: of today's episode. I'm joined by Johnny who is the
Speaker 1: owner and founder of cake Mail, which is a cake
Speaker 1: delivery service.
Speaker 2: They do a lot more than just cakes. They do
Speaker 2: all sorts of.
Speaker 1: Stuff and they do same day delivery, made to order
Speaker 1: in Sydney and they will deliver it.
Speaker 2: To your door.
Speaker 1: Cake Mail was created to revolutionize the way customers and gifts.
Speaker 1: The limited options available in Australia's cake and gift giving industry,
Speaker 1: particularly for last minute deliveries, drove the need for innovation,
Speaker 1: and that's how cake Malt came to be. Johnny is
Speaker 1: going to be sharing with us his insights into his
Speaker 1: unique business, as well as a lot of hilarious stories
Speaker 1: that aren't so hilarious when they happen, but they're definitely
Speaker 1: very funny.
Speaker 2: Now, Johnny, welcome to Big Business.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I feel like this is going to be a.
Speaker 1: Bit of a delicious episode because your cakes look absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2: I actually saw I think it popped up. I don't
Speaker 2: know if it was on my TikTok on.
Speaker 1: My Instagram a little while ago. Because we've been trying
Speaker 1: to get you in for a little while. I know
Speaker 1: that you've been off traveling or you are you traveling?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been traveling.
Speaker 2: Where did you go?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 3: I just got back from South America?
Speaker 2: Oh wow?
Speaker 3: Did Brazil, Columbia and Chiley, which is nice. Before that
Speaker 3: was in Europe as well. Well.
Speaker 2: Welcome back.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: We've been trying to get you and you've been gallivanting
Speaker 1: around the world.
Speaker 3: I'm glad to be back. I've got miss home of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah you do, don't you?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 1: I saw a video pop up. Now, did you go
Speaker 1: on like a morning show or something.
Speaker 2: On the news.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we had a morning show and we had
Speaker 3: so we had the morning show and then Chatter nine News.
Speaker 3: So that was recently because we just launched a cake
Speaker 3: vending machine yeah, inside Westfills Chatswood, and so essentially they
Speaker 3: were intrigued with, you know, because it's something that hasn't
Speaker 3: really been done before. Yeah, and so the news love
Speaker 3: new stuff like that. But I guess it was our
Speaker 3: kind of way to do retail without the whole expense
Speaker 3: of setting up a whole new store.
Speaker 1: And it makes sense especially for you, like if if
Speaker 1: you are selling something as small as cakes, like, do
Speaker 1: you really need to commit to having an entire shop?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: So the vending machine thing just absolutely caught my eye
Speaker 1: when I saw that video pop up, and I've said,
Speaker 1: we have to get this guy on because I want
Speaker 1: to hear more about the vending machines and how it
Speaker 1: all works kind of thing. Yeah, I haven't watched the
Speaker 1: video for quite a few months, but I think you
Speaker 1: were saying something along the lines of how you believe
Speaker 1: that vending machines are.
Speaker 2: Going to be like the way of the future.
Speaker 3: Did you say, what kind of it already is? Because
Speaker 3: like if you go to like I don't know if
Speaker 3: you've been like in Asian countries, but Japan, Korea, they're
Speaker 3: already started. Like you go out on the streets and
Speaker 3: there is just vending machines and everything and they sell everything. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and it just makes mine And we're so far online
Speaker 3: because we were very traditional our with our retail and stuff,
Speaker 3: and so I feel like eventually we're gonna get there,
Speaker 3: but we're just someone has to do it. So that's
Speaker 3: why we're like, you know, let's do it, and let's
Speaker 3: start the trend.
Speaker 2: What was it going to Japan or something that inspired?
Speaker 3: So I saw them in Japan.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: And then even in Vegas, like America's starting to kind
Speaker 3: of jump on it too, so they have a lot
Speaker 3: of you know, vending machines in their casinos and stuff.
Speaker 1: I think the only vending machines that I've really seen,
Speaker 1: I've seen like beauty brands do it, like I know,
Speaker 1: like Kylie Jenner's cosmetics, I've seen vending machines of that.
Speaker 1: I think I've seen the Sprinkles cupcakes over in America,
Speaker 1: Like I think they started that a little while ago
Speaker 1: over there, and then yeah, I've never been to Japan,
Speaker 1: but I can only imagine they've probably got vending.
Speaker 3: Machines for absent literally everything everything.
Speaker 1: I've even seen, like vending machines for shoes, like all
Speaker 1: like emergency shoes on a night out, Like if girls
Speaker 1: are wearing heels and their feet are hurting. There's vending
Speaker 1: machines that have little like ballet flats in.
Speaker 2: Them and you can buy them. It's kind of smart.
Speaker 1: What did get going into this whole vending machine thing look.
Speaker 2: Like for you?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Did you have to? So you've obviously just got.
Speaker 1: The one vending machine at the moment in Westfield? Chats
Speaker 1: would first of all, how did you organize that with Westfield?
Speaker 1: Like I obviously I have two Westfield stores myself, so
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to go and get a
Speaker 1: commercial lease and do all that kind of stuff. But
Speaker 1: if you just want to plunk one vending machine in
Speaker 1: a Westfield, how does that work?
Speaker 2: Exactly?
Speaker 3: It's not easy. It's like it's not like I getting
Speaker 3: a store sounds like hard, and as you know, it
Speaker 3: is hard, but it's vending machine. It's like it's as
Speaker 3: hard because it's you're trying to lease a space. You're
Speaker 3: trying to get them to create a space for you
Speaker 3: as well, because legally they need like all the permissions
Speaker 3: and riots and stuff, and Coca Cola own a lot
Speaker 3: of the spaces to right, so it wasn't easy to
Speaker 3: get a space, and they don't just give it out
Speaker 3: to anyone either, so I had to full lock to
Speaker 3: a whole you know, business proposal and say, you know,
Speaker 3: because it's such a new concept as well, they don't
Speaker 3: want to just put something random in there that's not
Speaker 3: going to work. Yes, So I think it helps that
Speaker 3: we had a brand behind us and that we could
Speaker 3: you know, use that space accordingly. But it was it
Speaker 3: wasn't easy to get the approval to do.
Speaker 1: It, so you kind of had to say, this is us,
Speaker 1: this is our business, this is how many customers we have,
Speaker 1: this is our product exactly, and here's why I think.
Speaker 2: It will be amazing in your center. And then have
Speaker 2: they got you on like a lease?
Speaker 3: Yeah essentially, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Because I know, like with our commercial leases for our
Speaker 1: Westfield stores, it's based off the square meterage of the shop.
Speaker 2: Are they charging you based off the skua?
Speaker 3: I think they charge us per the for the spot,
Speaker 3: Like it's like it's like a whole different department, it's
Speaker 3: just for vending.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting to me. And do you have
Speaker 1: plans to I think you said in the like when
Speaker 1: you went on the Morning Show that you are hoping
Speaker 1: to expand and do more vending machine.
Speaker 3: So we're looking into buying a few more. The first
Speaker 3: one was kind of just a test to see how
Speaker 3: it's going and you know, what we need because we've
Speaker 3: never done this before, so we kind of wanted to learn,
Speaker 3: you know, what we need to get right, what products
Speaker 3: so well, what spot. Like we've moved the vending machine
Speaker 3: in a few different spaces within that same shopping center,
Speaker 3: so we know.
Speaker 2: Have you noticed a drastic difference like moving it around?
Speaker 3: What do you try? It's so important, Like it kind
Speaker 3: of depends. Like when we had it near the car park,
Speaker 3: it did better because people were kind of buying it
Speaker 3: on their way out. Yeah, where as opposed to when
Speaker 3: we had it in the middle of the shopping center,
Speaker 3: it wasn't doing as well because people were too already
Speaker 3: caught up in shopping and stuff. So kind of now
Speaker 3: we're testing it in a food court area, too, but
Speaker 3: we still kind of found that the ones, the one
Speaker 3: when it was near the exit, that's where it did
Speaker 3: the best.
Speaker 1: And that makes the no sense because you're on your
Speaker 1: way out, you've done your shopping, you've stopped thinking about
Speaker 1: all the things you needed to get, and you're on
Speaker 1: the way to the car and then you look and
Speaker 1: there's this vibrant orange vending machine with all these beautiful
Speaker 1: cakes in it.
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, fuck it, I'll get one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll get one on the way out, get a
Speaker 1: little treat for myself.
Speaker 2: Or if you're going to one's house, you'd be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I could get that and take that.
Speaker 3: It's like an impulse buy on your way out.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What has been the most challenging part of this whole
Speaker 1: vending machine venture.
Speaker 2: So far for you?
Speaker 3: I think our thing with because of stock. Like we've
Speaker 3: never done retail before, Like we've always had pre orders
Speaker 3: and we know how to allocate, specially with stock management.
Speaker 3: So we've vending machines. Obviously, when you have something in
Speaker 3: there for too long, it goes off. So it's kind
Speaker 3: of managing wastage and managing stock levels so we know,
Speaker 3: you know how much the right amount to put in
Speaker 3: so we don't have to throw anything out because they
Speaker 3: only last a certain amount of time. Yes, so we've
Speaker 3: never had to deal with wastege before, so that's been
Speaker 3: a big that's been a big challenge for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be especially because you know the other
Speaker 1: half of your business or like your business is like
Speaker 1: cakes that just go out and the customer gets them
Speaker 1: and they're happy. Whereas now you've got this vending machine,
Speaker 1: you're going to have to be keeping your eye on
Speaker 1: when am I putting the stock in there?
Speaker 2: When do I need to pull it out?
Speaker 1: When does it become not good enough to eat anymore?
Speaker 3: Exactly?
Speaker 1: And what have you found has been the most popular
Speaker 1: selling item in your vending machine?
Speaker 3: So we probably the biscofine, the Bisco pons was done
Speaker 3: really well. In the oil one. We've just introduced cake
Speaker 3: jars as well, and we did that because you wanted
Speaker 3: to sell something at a lower price point just to
Speaker 3: test to see, you know, if lower costing items did better,
Speaker 3: and they are. They're doing pretty well, but it's kind
Speaker 3: of been a mix so far. But we still want
Speaker 3: to put a few more products in there to kind
Speaker 3: of test, Like we want to throw some cupcakes in them,
Speaker 3: and we want to throw some bigger priced items like
Speaker 3: whole cakes in there.
Speaker 1: How does it because I remember seeing it in the video,
Speaker 1: like is it one of those machines that goes up and.
Speaker 2: Like carefully picks it up and then brings it.
Speaker 3: It's like a conveyor belt. So it's essentially it goes
Speaker 3: up and then it rolls it onto this platform and
Speaker 3: then it brings it back down and then it rolls
Speaker 3: it back out.
Speaker 1: Because I be worried if you're doing like a big
Speaker 1: cake in there, that it's going to like smash.
Speaker 2: Have you had anything go wrong like that?
Speaker 3: Not yet, No, it's not. It's not possible, luckily, because
Speaker 3: if it just dropped down, the whole thing would. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it doesn't. It doesn't just drop down, because a lot
Speaker 3: of people think that because they think they go and
Speaker 3: they just drop sound. But it's not a normal vending machine, right,
Speaker 3: it's like a very high tech vending machine.
Speaker 1: I can imagine that a piece of equipment like that
Speaker 1: was super expensive to make and especially customizing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So essentially how we got it's it's like it's
Speaker 3: a white label things. So the technology already exist, yeah,
Speaker 3: and then we just white label it.
Speaker 1: Essentially, which for people that are listening that don't know
Speaker 1: what white labeling is.
Speaker 3: So white labels when you just buy I don't know,
Speaker 3: depending on what the whatever space you're in, you just
Speaker 3: buy something that's already made and you kind of rebrand
Speaker 3: it to be your own. Essentially.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you found a company that kind of makes
Speaker 1: these vending machines the technologies there, and then you can
Speaker 1: wrap it and make your own, and then you imported
Speaker 1: that into the country. How the hell did you get
Speaker 1: the vending machine in the I can only imagine the customs.
Speaker 3: And don't even get missed out. I can only imagine
Speaker 3: get into the west Fields like we had to. If
Speaker 3: I show you the videos of it going, we were
Speaker 3: willing it on the road and then willing it into
Speaker 3: the front door of the west Field.
Speaker 2: Oh no, and I'd sod for.
Speaker 3: The elevator, so we had to. Literally it was it
Speaker 3: was like four people trying to push this big and
Speaker 3: it's massive as well. It's not small, yeah, it's two
Speaker 3: point two meters high.
Speaker 1: I would be so worried, especially because it is like
Speaker 1: it's technology in a box.
Speaker 2: I'd be worried that.
Speaker 1: One little thing would come loose and then the whole
Speaker 1: machine wouldn't work, Like if you're wheeling it down the street,
Speaker 1: I'd be freaking out that I was going to break
Speaker 1: the machine out.
Speaker 3: We've been through that worry multiple times as well because
Speaker 3: we've had to move it. Moving it is the worst thing.
Speaker 2: I can only imagine when's the next one?
Speaker 3: If there is one, we're looking into getting free more
Speaker 3: wow and.
Speaker 2: You're going to go Westfields every time.
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting because we've had a lot of since
Speaker 3: we've launched, We've had a lot of other companies reach
Speaker 3: out to us wanting to get these machines, because at
Speaker 3: first it was so hard just to get anyone to
Speaker 3: take it. And now since you know, we got featured
Speaker 3: on TV and all that, everyone's like jumping at us
Speaker 3: and get it. So we've had UNI's approach.
Speaker 2: Us that would be a good one.
Speaker 3: I ressell clubs approachest. We've had hospitals approach USTs. So
Speaker 3: it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like an
Speaker 3: eye opener to see what we don't know what to
Speaker 3: do yet, because it's like these could be do you
Speaker 3: better than shopping centers? We don't know, like hospitals, Like
Speaker 3: it's such a it's a good thing if you want
Speaker 3: to say a gift to.
Speaker 1: A fea, if someone's having a tough time in hospital,
Speaker 1: give you a beautiful k Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: I guess another thing that I haven't thought as well,
Speaker 1: what is the benefit to let's say Westfield for them
Speaker 1: with you having your vending machine in there. Because again,
Speaker 1: I know the way that it works when you have
Speaker 1: an actual store in Westfield. I know that you pay
Speaker 1: them rent and all that kind of stuff. Is that
Speaker 1: all they're getting from you? Or are they taking a
Speaker 1: cut if you're allowed to stay.
Speaker 3: It's just been rent at the moment. Yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3: I know they do take commission. I'm not sure off vending.
Speaker 3: I think vending is a bit different. Yeah, like it's retail,
Speaker 3: but yeah, no, it's just rent.
Speaker 2: So you're quite literally just paying for the space.
Speaker 1: And the same goes for any traditional retail store in
Speaker 1: a Westfield Like you are just essentially paying them rent
Speaker 1: and what they will do and what may be in
Speaker 1: your contract with them as well, which is in our contracts,
Speaker 1: is each retailer they give you a like a threshold
Speaker 1: and if in a year you make a a that threshold,
Speaker 1: they then take a percentage of every dollar above that threshold. Yes,
Speaker 1: but and it's all calculated off the square meterage. So
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they do the same for the
Speaker 1: vending machines. But every single store, let's say like Apple
Speaker 1: for example, like their store is huge, so then that
Speaker 1: number for them is really high kind of thing. And
Speaker 1: the numbers that they give you is high to the
Speaker 1: point where it's almost not achievable. We get pretty close,
Speaker 1: but I haven't had to give Westfield a percentage of
Speaker 1: our sales, like we've just come under each year, which is.
Speaker 3: Good because you want to make more. If you're making
Speaker 3: more than you've got to start paying for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's every dollar above that amount that you make.
Speaker 1: It's it's not every dollar you've made.
Speaker 2: Before then kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So let's say, for example, it's one point five million
Speaker 1: dollars in the year. Any dollar above one point five million,
Speaker 1: they will take a percentage of every dollar above that.
Speaker 1: And it's negociable what that percentage is. And we haven't
Speaker 1: we haven't just hit it, but I know when we
Speaker 1: were getting close to it in like our first year
Speaker 1: of our Westfield Miranda store, I was saying to my partner,
Speaker 1: a j stop, stop, stop, like we need to stop
Speaker 1: making money, because I didn't want it to get to
Speaker 1: that point.
Speaker 2: But like you said, it's like a double edged sword.
Speaker 1: You want to make more money, then you know, if
Speaker 1: you make a little bit too much, then you're going
Speaker 1: to actually make less.
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure if it'd be the same for
Speaker 2: you with that.
Speaker 3: I don't think yet, but on the track they inforce it,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Let's go back to cake Mail.
Speaker 1: I was reading up on your website and you started
Speaker 1: baking when you were in high school.
Speaker 3: You're really young, seeming pretty much well even before that,
Speaker 3: like I always had it as a hobby, but sixteen
Speaker 3: is when I started.
Speaker 1: The business, and it was just you always liked baking
Speaker 1: from when you were really.
Speaker 2: Young, and then you just thought, what I'm gonna start.
Speaker 2: We were selling them to friends and family.
Speaker 3: First it was friends and family and then it kind
Speaker 3: of was like the whole word of mouth thing from there.
Speaker 3: But I literally did it out of my garage from home.
Speaker 3: So first it was in my mom's kitchen and she
Speaker 3: got she cracked it because there was we turned the
Speaker 3: whole house into a business, had all these people rocking
Speaker 3: up to the house, and orders go everywhere, and the
Speaker 3: whole place was a mess. So then we converted the
Speaker 3: back garage into a whole industrial kitchen and then from there,
Speaker 3: because we outgrew that, then we moved into a warehouse.
Speaker 2: Yeah weell.
Speaker 1: I feel like most businesses start that way, Like my
Speaker 1: business started in the garage underneath my house.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't have it any other way, no, And.
Speaker 1: I think it's really special to be able to start
Speaker 1: a business that way, to start it from quite literally nothing,
Speaker 1: just you making these cakes at home kind of thing,
Speaker 1: to then fully turning into a proper business with a warehouse.
Speaker 1: And for those who haven't seen your business before, you
Speaker 1: do a lot, like I've been stock on the Instagram,
Speaker 1: Like you do all sorts of cakes.
Speaker 2: You do cupcakes, you do the cakes where you pull.
Speaker 1: The ones, yeah yeah, and then it all like falls
Speaker 1: down and so you do also like same day delivery
Speaker 1: in Sydney or something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, So same day was kind of our main
Speaker 3: like competitive point with our business because we are the
Speaker 3: first people in Sydney to do the same day cake delivery.
Speaker 3: And that's kind of what tipped our business over the edge,
Speaker 3: because like everybody makes cakes, but what makes your cakes
Speaker 3: different to everyone else, And our thing was a service
Speaker 3: because we're like birthday cakes especially are the single most
Speaker 3: forgotten thing on a birthday, yet they're most important. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And so that like we always saw that as a
Speaker 3: gap because when I was running my business before that,
Speaker 3: I was thinking people were always so last minute to
Speaker 3: organize cakes, and they always wanted them delivered. So I'm like,
Speaker 3: I imagine there was somebody that you could just order
Speaker 3: off and it would come to you. So then I
Speaker 3: saw us, like, you know, we like now the uber
Speaker 3: eats of birthday cakes.
Speaker 2: Wow. And how do you orchestrate that from your end? Obviously?
Speaker 2: Do you just have to have a certain amount ready
Speaker 2: kind of thing?
Speaker 3: We make everything to order, wow.
Speaker 2: But if someone order in the morning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we have up to a twelve o'clock today.
Speaker 3: But it took us a very long time to get that.
Speaker 1: Process because I was thinking, maybe you would have like
Speaker 1: twenty bisco Offs done and twenty cookies.
Speaker 3: And cream or a couple, yeah, because we know we're
Speaker 3: going to sell them. Yeah. But eventually, when at a
Speaker 3: certain time hits, we just literally make to order because
Speaker 3: we don't want to like have stuff there ready for
Speaker 3: the next day, like when everything out fresh. Yeah, wow,
Speaker 3: So the process we've got is we've nailed it, but
Speaker 3: it took us a very long time to get it right. Yeah,
Speaker 3: a long time.
Speaker 1: I think that's a thing that a lot of people
Speaker 1: again can be misled with in business, is it takes
Speaker 1: so long to get to a point where everything is perfect.
Speaker 1: Much like you with your vending machines and right now
Speaker 1: going we're just testing it out.
Speaker 2: We don't know what we're doing.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you know if it all goes well
Speaker 1: for you with these vending machines, in three years from now,
Speaker 1: you can be like, look at where we are now
Speaker 1: with these vending machines, and you can look back and
Speaker 1: compare to now when you've got the one vending machine,
Speaker 1: how different it'll be. Business is always a journey, I
Speaker 1: would say, and it takes forever to get to that
Speaker 1: good point. But I personally believe even when you think
Speaker 1: you're at the good point, you're not.
Speaker 3: You're not.
Speaker 2: There's always so much more that you can improve on.
Speaker 1: How does your team look with the cakes, like if
Speaker 1: you're making them to order kind of thing like how
Speaker 1: many people have you got baking every day?
Speaker 2: What does that look?
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, we have got a good team, but what
Speaker 3: about in the kitchen we got about eight or so people. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and then we have a whole team of driver as well,
Speaker 3: so we do all our deliveries in the house as well. Wow,
Speaker 3: because that was another challenge ahead of our business when
Speaker 3: whenever we sent them out with careers and stuff, they
Speaker 3: would just treat them like they or nothing like that,
Speaker 3: throw them away. They'd be melted, they wouldn't arrived the
Speaker 3: way that they're meant to. So we had to then
Speaker 3: go and invest all our resources into setting up a
Speaker 3: delivery network. So like all the drivers we basically work
Speaker 3: for us. Yeah, so it took us a while to
Speaker 3: get that as well.
Speaker 1: I could only imagine we have said before that some
Speaker 1: like one day we want to do like a delivery
Speaker 1: because we're based in Newcastle, we want to do like
Speaker 1: a delivery day in Newcastle, you know, like same day
Speaker 1: delivery or whatever.
Speaker 2: And I've said to my partner Aj.
Speaker 1: How would we even like work out what suburb you
Speaker 1: go to first, and like what would be the loop?
Speaker 2: So I can imagine it would have been.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was such a especially with Sydney, like there's
Speaker 1: so many more suburbs here. Yeah, so much more traffic,
Speaker 1: Like how do you even orchestrate something like that.
Speaker 3: Logistics is the hardest part of our business. Like everybody
Speaker 3: asked me, like what's the hardest part. Logistics is the
Speaker 3: worst part because it's people, especially when you're dealing with
Speaker 3: emotions and people gifting. Everybody. When you give some like
Speaker 3: something to someone, you want it to be perfect, right,
Speaker 3: So you're gonna have people on the other end saying,
Speaker 3: please make sure this cake is delivered by three o'clock,
Speaker 3: or it's going to a school this person leaves at
Speaker 3: two o'clock that has to get there at this time,
Speaker 3: or it's in the hospital in the maternity ward but
Speaker 3: you can't get through you need it and there will
Speaker 3: be like ten million instructions attached to it, and so
Speaker 3: trying to get everyone's delivery perfect to how the customer
Speaker 3: wants it. It doesn't always happen, like no, I think she happens.
Speaker 3: Like a driver will get into a car accident, all
Speaker 3: the cakes will be damaged. So like that happen, Yeah,
Speaker 3: multiple times, Oh, she happens. Or a driver will get
Speaker 3: to a house and there will be a dog and
Speaker 3: the dog will be barking at them. We can't even
Speaker 3: cross and the dog like one time a dog literally
Speaker 3: jumped the fence and was chasing the driver with the cake.
Speaker 1: And the hard thing is as well, like stuff like
Speaker 1: this happens in business every day, and customers, I guess,
Speaker 1: don't see that side, and even as like especially like
Speaker 1: you said, if it's a cake and if it's something special,
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm so sorry, but the drive has
Speaker 1: been chased down the road by a dog and his
Speaker 1: legs being bitten and the cake smashed on the ground.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the times the customers don't.
Speaker 1: Care that that happen because it's their special moment with
Speaker 1: their cake and.
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, I needed the cake, like where is it?
Speaker 1: And I can understand their point of view, but also,
Speaker 1: like you said, like shit happens in business all the
Speaker 1: time that is completely out of your control. What would
Speaker 1: you say in your how many years have you been
Speaker 1: doing cake mail?
Speaker 3: Cake mal has been seven years old?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well done, thank you.
Speaker 1: What would you say has been the biggest mistake or
Speaker 1: desare start in that time?
Speaker 3: So I remember one time there was so like I've
Speaker 3: done multiple roles, so I've always taught myself every single
Speaker 3: role of the business, and so whenever I was needed
Speaker 3: to do that role, say like you know where stuff
Speaker 3: was sick or couldn't rock up, or we need extra help,
Speaker 3: I would know how to do it. And so on Christmas,
Speaker 3: the admin she couldn't rock up, she was sick, so
Speaker 3: I had to do that role. Now I hadn't done
Speaker 3: that role probably be about to use. Even though I
Speaker 3: learned that role and I created that role, I completely
Speaker 3: forgot how to do it. I'm not very tech savvy,
Speaker 3: so you're more hands on, yeah, more hands on, more creative,
Speaker 3: But that role was more so like Xcel based, and
Speaker 3: like exporting all the orders and pretty much doing the
Speaker 3: logistics part of it and creating like the labels and
Speaker 3: the order list. And so I clicked a few wrong
Speaker 3: buttons and essentially, and we didn't know this until the
Speaker 3: orders went out, when we started getting emails saying, hey,
Speaker 3: I've received the wrong cake, and and again and again,
Speaker 3: I'm like and it literally happened to every single order.
Speaker 3: And so essentially what happened was in so we have
Speaker 3: we sought the orders alphabetically, but I sorted the cakes alphabetically,
Speaker 3: so every sing so every single person got the wrong cake.
Speaker 2: And it was just all on Christmas Day or like
Speaker 2: just before Christmas.
Speaker 3: Christmas was Christmas Eve, so pretty much it was our
Speaker 3: last every day. So pretty much I ruined Christmas for
Speaker 3: about three hundred and something people.
Speaker 1: You are the gringe, literally and we're all the all
Speaker 1: the cakes Christmas theme.
Speaker 3: Some of them were, but some of them weren't. So
Speaker 3: like people were getting like happy Birthday cakes or like
Speaker 3: we have we have like a selfie cake where you
Speaker 3: upload like your photo, so some people were getting random people.
Speaker 2: What year was this?
Speaker 3: This was, like I'm going to say two thousand and
Speaker 3: nineteen was just before COVID.
Speaker 2: He ruined Christmas with some people, Like some people were
Speaker 2: funny about.
Speaker 3: It, funny, but it was kind of like it didn't matter.
Speaker 3: Like it was like and you can imagine like your back,
Speaker 3: like it felt so bad and it was we had
Speaker 3: a evon three hundred and fifty people, like it was
Speaker 3: just shit. It was.
Speaker 1: It was not good at all, with some people raging.
Speaker 1: I could imagine some people would be raging. Some people
Speaker 1: would find it funny. You ruin, Oh no, wow, I
Speaker 1: mean if you don't laugh, you cry, right, And I
Speaker 1: feel like these things happen in business, and at the
Speaker 1: time you definitely wouldn't have been laughing. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: have felt sick and not been able to sleep a
Speaker 1: couple of days.
Speaker 3: I was out. But now, but now you laugh about it.
Speaker 3: It's always like the bad ones, the bad stories that
Speaker 3: you remember and you told people, and you always laugh about.
Speaker 1: Them, exactly right, And it's from those times where yeah,
Speaker 1: that was absolutely fucked when you ruined Christmas for three
Speaker 1: hundred people, But you can look at it now.
Speaker 2: Laugh, and I'm sure you learn a lot of lessons
Speaker 2: from that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, every time I do that role now, I always
Speaker 3: go back to that and I'm like, make sure you've
Speaker 3: done this right?
Speaker 1: Yes, one, how did you recover from that in the end, Like, well,
Speaker 1: we're inally good.
Speaker 3: About customers, and I've always believed that you need to,
Speaker 3: especially with our business, because our business relives and repeat
Speaker 3: customers over and over, Like, if you fuck up their
Speaker 3: cake once're not gonna order if you will again, you
Speaker 3: need to keep them on your side. So if we've asked,
Speaker 3: we refund that every single person, and then we also
Speaker 3: gave them a twenty five dollar store credit to use
Speaker 3: as an insensitive on their next order.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you find that a lot of them came
Speaker 2: back again?
Speaker 3: Yeah, most of them. Look, most people will understand you're
Speaker 3: gonna have your handful of people that probably just sped
Speaker 3: up and not gonna come back. But you tely think
Speaker 3: about it's always gonna happen. You can't keep everyone happy.
Speaker 3: The ones that you can't keep happy that you don't
Speaker 3: really want them at the end of the day because
Speaker 3: they're just gonna always find someone to pick.
Speaker 2: Oh, I feel you.
Speaker 1: I literally got an email this morning from a customer
Speaker 1: saying that she hopes that karma gets me.
Speaker 3: That's a new one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I got the most horrible now, But because
Speaker 4: we rejected her return, because like when you're returning, so
Speaker 4: like we get returns.
Speaker 1: Back with our clothes, which is a whole other part
Speaker 1: of business. Like you wouldn't have returns on cakes, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: And it has to be in like one hundred percent
Speaker 1: original condition. If it's got like pet hair or like
Speaker 1: smells really strong of something, Yeah, we can't fold it
Speaker 1: back up nicely and put it on the on the
Speaker 1: shelf and sell it again.
Speaker 2: And so we're just the worst people in the world
Speaker 2: for rejecting her return.
Speaker 1: Even though, we send it back to her at our
Speaker 1: own cost, and we're like, you know, usually we charge
Speaker 1: someone to be like here, you're going to have to
Speaker 1: have it back and you're gonna have to pay for
Speaker 1: the shipping. We send it back to her, and yeah,
Speaker 1: she said that she.
Speaker 2: Hopes that karma gets me.
Speaker 1: But you can just literally never make anyone like everyone
Speaker 1: has a lot of though, Like.
Speaker 3: With people buying stuff, wearing it and then returning it,
Speaker 3: do you see a lot of that?
Speaker 1: We would, yeah, And like it's a really shady part
Speaker 1: of this industry, I guess is people would buy something
Speaker 1: like carefully take the tag off, wear it, and put
Speaker 1: the tag back on and send it back. But our
Speaker 1: warehouse team pretty thorough it comes to checking returns and
Speaker 1: like you can kind of tell when something has been worn,
Speaker 1: and like we fucking smell, like it's really gross, but
Speaker 1: we like check over it because you just want it
Speaker 1: to be perfect, you know. So yeah, I totally agree
Speaker 1: with you that you can't make everyone happy when you're
Speaker 1: in business.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people naturally are people pleasers.
Speaker 1: We want to make everyone happy, like that's just who
Speaker 1: we are as humans. But I think being in business
Speaker 1: will give you the biggest wake up call. You literally
Speaker 1: can't make everyone happy. Some people are going to absolutely
Speaker 1: hate your guts.
Speaker 3: It took me a long time to learn that as well,
Speaker 3: because you're always wanting to make everyone happen, and every
Speaker 3: time we'd get like a complaint or something, it would
Speaker 3: really hit me hard because we work so hard to
Speaker 3: build the business to that point, right, and so whenever
Speaker 3: you get people that aren't happy, like, it took me
Speaker 3: a while to sit there and say, it's okay, it's
Speaker 3: mine Like, You're always going to have people that aren't
Speaker 3: going to be happy, And.
Speaker 2: That's point I couldn't.
Speaker 1: You're speaking my own language, honestly, And I think it's
Speaker 1: really important that to all business owners out there, no
Speaker 1: matter where you are in your journey, you have to
Speaker 1: know it's okay if people hate your business.
Speaker 3: You just want to go like you actually do something.
Speaker 3: They go you can't little little thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're going to spend all of your energy for
Speaker 1: the whole day on that customer that's going off at
Speaker 1: you or whatever.
Speaker 2: When you kind of just have to go, all right,
Speaker 2: I'm going to close this ticket now and wish you
Speaker 2: the best kind of thing.
Speaker 1: What else in your business journey so far, have you
Speaker 1: found to be surprising or challenging.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So during like COVID, especially in the midst of COVID,
Speaker 3: like a lot of businesses were closing down and then
Speaker 3: but it was funny because our business was doing the opposite.
Speaker 3: Our business was the doing so it was getting busy
Speaker 3: and busy and busy. We couldn't even manage it. Like
Speaker 3: our business went ten times in sales over the course
Speaker 3: of you know, the two weeks, and then every time
Speaker 3: there was like another lockdown, it would go more and
Speaker 3: more and more because our business was like one of
Speaker 3: the only ones that could operate because we'll food delivery.
Speaker 3: So we got around it. And so during COVID it
Speaker 3: was like we had to keep hiring stuff. We had
Speaker 3: to like we're operating our business at a level that
Speaker 3: we didn't even know how to do because it was like
Speaker 3: ten times production and so it was just crazy. I've
Speaker 3: never ever seen the business at that point ever, and
Speaker 3: we'll never ever get there again because it was like
Speaker 3: people will ordering it because we were one of the
Speaker 3: only things open. Yeah. Wow, especially with gifting and stuff,
Speaker 3: like you couldn't see your friends, so you would have
Speaker 3: to send them something yes, and so COVID was a
Speaker 3: big surprise for us because I didn't expect our business
Speaker 3: to do that. And then ever since doing that, we've
Speaker 3: retained a lot of our customers from it.
Speaker 1: So it's almost like COVID was like an amazing yea
Speaker 1: for you. I feel like for a lot of businesses
Speaker 1: it either was like a make or break for them.
Speaker 1: I feel like for online businesses, online businesses boomed in
Speaker 1: COVID because everyone was at home, everyone was getting the
Speaker 1: COVID payments off the government kind of thing, and they
Speaker 1: were just spending money online.
Speaker 2: I know for us as well, we only.
Speaker 1: Had our one retail store at the time in Newcastle,
Speaker 1: so that shut which was fine because it was just
Speaker 1: our one little Newcastle boutique, but our online sales went
Speaker 1: up as well, especially Becau, because when we first went
Speaker 1: into lockdown, it was like the weather was cooling down.
Speaker 2: We were coming out with all of our trackies and hoodies, so.
Speaker 1: It was like because people were just buying trackies and
Speaker 1: hoodies to sit at home on Zoom with their friends.
Speaker 2: I guess, how did you.
Speaker 1: Because I've heard a lot of stories from business owners
Speaker 1: and I have friends who are business mentors, and coaches,
Speaker 1: and they've said a lot of businesses that did peak
Speaker 1: in COVID have really struggled since because they saw this
Speaker 1: boom in COVID and they thought, oh, this is amazing,
Speaker 1: like this is what it's going to be now, and
Speaker 1: then when things went back to normal, they felt their
Speaker 1: business slow down again.
Speaker 3: Did you I think we had the same thing, although
Speaker 3: I knew it wasn't here to stay because obviously it's
Speaker 3: only increasing because of COVID, So what's going to happen
Speaker 3: when COVID stopped? So I kind of had that in
Speaker 3: the back of my mind. But because their business went
Speaker 3: so well, and we were forced to grow at a
Speaker 3: rate that we weren't ready for. So we moved into
Speaker 3: a bigger warehouse, we hired all these stuff, we implemented
Speaker 3: all these new processes. So when we went back to normal,
Speaker 3: it was like we had all this space, all this stuff,
Speaker 3: and we didn't have the you know, the orders for it.
Speaker 2: So it was kind of how did you manage that?
Speaker 3: We had just like de scale, So we went from
Speaker 3: scaling up to we literally had to scale everything back down.
Speaker 2: Did you have to let people go from there?
Speaker 3: We hadually had no choice, but as that kind of happened,
Speaker 3: and as COVID went away, more jobs became people went
Speaker 3: back to the original jobs because we during COVID, we
Speaker 3: employed a lot of people that lost their jobs, and
Speaker 3: I employed a lot of family as well because they
Speaker 3: all lost their jobs. So it was like we were
Speaker 3: one of the only people employing people. Like at one
Speaker 3: stage we had over one hundred drivers. Wow, Like it
Speaker 3: was just it was crazy. I've never seen the business like.
Speaker 3: There was take everywhere. Even the new warehouse we moved
Speaker 3: into was not big enough, so we had to make
Speaker 3: a makeshift warehouse outside. We put all these marquees and
Speaker 3: tents outside so we could literally produce cakes outside. It's like,
Speaker 3: I can't even explain it. You couldn't even walk on
Speaker 3: the floor because there was just shit everywhere. You got
Speaker 3: at a level where I didn't think it was possible
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, business really is just one massive whirl wind,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: To wrap up the episode, where do you see the
Speaker 1: future of cake Mail going? And I guess, looking back
Speaker 1: on your seven year journey, did you ever think that
Speaker 1: you would be where you are now when you first started?
Speaker 1: Because I think that's a big thing for a lot
Speaker 1: of business owners is they start this little thing at
Speaker 1: home and then it turns into something massive. You know,
Speaker 1: what is your overview of your journey and what are
Speaker 1: your goals.
Speaker 2: For the future, if any.
Speaker 3: It's kind of crazy because when I started it, I
Speaker 3: literally started it in my garage, and especially because I
Speaker 3: was never meant to do this, but my mom never
Speaker 3: wanted me to do this. She wanted me to go
Speaker 3: to UNI.
Speaker 2: What did you want to do originally or did you
Speaker 2: always want.
Speaker 3: To I never knew what I wanted to do because
Speaker 3: I was so young. I knew I liked doing this,
Speaker 3: but it was never meant to go this world. It
Speaker 3: was never meant to be a business like and so
Speaker 3: kind of brought at took off. It was like, all right,
Speaker 3: this is pretty cool and I like doing it. And
Speaker 3: I've always I've never seen myself working for anyone either,
Speaker 3: So it's crazy when I look back now to see
Speaker 3: what it's become. I didn't think it ever gets to
Speaker 3: this stage. Never, So I'm happy with where at scotton,
Speaker 3: and I guess kind of the goals now is to
Speaker 3: kind of push it to what else it can be.
Speaker 3: And that's kind of with the vending machines, because it's
Speaker 3: like with our business especially, there's only so many birthdays
Speaker 3: on so many days, so it's kind of like once
Speaker 3: you hit that, it's hard because you can't really grow
Speaker 3: much more like we've hit all the other like you know,
Speaker 3: Valentine's fathers and mothers. They look, I've done all that.
Speaker 3: But our next step will always retail. And that's why
Speaker 3: I see with the vending machines, if we can get
Speaker 3: it right, I think that's probably our next way forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 1: And would you ever open Like I know we're talking
Speaker 1: about bending machines and saying you don't need a lease,
Speaker 1: but would you ever open your own like little cafe shops?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, I've thought about it, but I feel like
Speaker 3: the main thing with our brand is that our different
Speaker 3: point is that we don't have a shop. We are
Speaker 3: online same day cake delivery, and I don't want to
Speaker 3: cannibalize the whole business by opening a shop.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the shops are hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely wouldn't mind opening up a shop one day,
Speaker 3: but probably not with this brand, like probably with something else.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, And have you thought the other way, like expanding
Speaker 1: into let's say supermarkets where you're selling to them at wholesale.
Speaker 3: So we've recently launched into ij Oh wow, so you're
Speaker 3: doing it all. We're only testing out a couple of
Speaker 3: stores to see kind of how it works. Yep. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's still kind of like playing at the moment. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's definitely something we could look into, Like especially with
Speaker 3: the Woods and Calls, that would be cool because they've
Speaker 3: obviously got more of a reach.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you just have to be mindful of your margins
Speaker 1: at that point because I know they take a lot
Speaker 1: and also you have no control over the price they
Speaker 1: sell your.
Speaker 3: Products at wholesale is hard as well. It's like it's
Speaker 3: another whole world.
Speaker 1: I cannot even begin to imagine. That was my other
Speaker 1: question that I had for you before. What would you
Speaker 1: say that you owe all of your success to with
Speaker 1: cake Mail? Like what is it exactly that has Like
Speaker 1: obviously you've got your same day delivery, but like, how
Speaker 1: have you gotten the audience that you have? Like has
Speaker 1: it been social media and organic content or is it
Speaker 1: being paid ads or has it been emails? Like what
Speaker 1: would you say has been the biggest Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: I think out of everything we did, The main thing
Speaker 3: that we did that like that I physically saw the
Speaker 3: business the sales go up, was influencers. Like back in
Speaker 3: the days when we first started and we were sending
Speaker 3: out our product to influencers and they were sharing it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's where we got big reach. That's where we got
Speaker 3: a lot of people ordering a lot of like obviously
Speaker 3: increased followers and things like that that I feel like that,
Speaker 3: out of everything did the best for us.
Speaker 2: Do you think it's still the same today, it's.
Speaker 3: Very very different. I think influencers that it's hard because
Speaker 3: obviously we've tested ongoing influences and it's hard because people
Speaker 3: kind of know us already. I feel like we've influenceers
Speaker 3: that best works with like a new product or a
Speaker 3: new brand. But even then, now influencers know their worth
Speaker 3: and they're charging a lot more for it. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: Like back in the days, we never paid for one influencer.
Speaker 3: They just wanted a free cause it was kind of
Speaker 3: like a privilege for them to be sent. Like we
Speaker 3: kind of flipped it on its head.
Speaker 2: And now it's like I'll have the cake, but I
Speaker 2: also want ten brand.
Speaker 3: Yeah literally, and it doesn't get the same pool as
Speaker 3: it used to because there's a lot more influences and
Speaker 3: they're posting a lot more things, and so your product
Speaker 3: is like drowning in so many other promotions.
Speaker 1: I completely agree, and I've spoken about this on the
Speaker 1: podcast before that influencer marketing like seven years ago was
Speaker 1: so different, Like you could give an influencer a cake
Speaker 1: and they could post about it and you'd get hundreds
Speaker 1: of orders. Whereas now you could like give the same
Speaker 1: influence or a cake and you might get two orders.
Speaker 1: It's just because social media is so saturated now.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love it.
Speaker 1: Well, Johnny, I'm going to wrap up today's episode with
Speaker 1: a question for you. I feel like you've already given
Speaker 1: us so many little tips, but I always do a
Speaker 1: tip of the week. It can be about business, it
Speaker 1: can be live, it can be anything in between.
Speaker 2: What is your tip of the week for us?
Speaker 3: Yeah, when most business owners speak to me, I always
Speaker 3: say this one thing for them, and they resonate it
Speaker 3: with it well. And I always say work on the business,
Speaker 3: not in the business, because a lot of business owners
Speaker 3: I meet are always so hands on in the business.
Speaker 3: They're doing like you know, packing their orders, they're they're
Speaker 3: posting on social media, they're doing this, they're doing that's
Speaker 3: that's great, But what are you doing to actually grow
Speaker 3: your business? What are you doing to make sure your
Speaker 3: business is not the same as it was yesterday.
Speaker 2: I absolutely love that.
Speaker 1: I feel like you having to go at me as
Speaker 1: well because I'm so hands on that I always do stuff.
Speaker 1: But I'm totally with you on that, and I think
Speaker 1: it's really important when we do start new businesses from
Speaker 1: the ground up, like in our garages, you're making the
Speaker 1: cakes in your mum's kitchen. It's really important to have
Speaker 1: your fingers in every part of the business then and
Speaker 1: learn all those roles and do all those things and
Speaker 1: understand how it works. But it gets to a point,
Speaker 1: especially if you are wanting to scale the business, that
Speaker 1: you need to step away from those day to day operations.
Speaker 1: And I know for me that I found over the
Speaker 1: years of my journeys, I held a lot of guilt
Speaker 1: around not actually doing those hands on things, Like when
Speaker 1: I felt myself not packing orders anymore, I would feel
Speaker 1: guilty that I wasn't there helping my warehouse team, or
Speaker 1: if I'm not in the store serving customers like I found.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you experienced it as well.
Speaker 3: It takes a lot to let go of your business. Yes,
Speaker 3: it has to, Like you know, detach yourself from your business.
Speaker 3: Your business will live without you, m M. Otherwise you
Speaker 3: will never like you can't treat it. You can't be
Speaker 3: so emotional with business like. It took me a long
Speaker 3: time because I was so attached to it. Every time
Speaker 3: something went wrong, I was there, whereas now I have
Speaker 3: people in place, that manager, and obviously it doesn't run
Speaker 3: as well when you're not there. I get it.
Speaker 2: You need to be there to an extent, yes.
Speaker 3: But to an extent like let it suck up a bit,
Speaker 3: but still let it run by itself like it's it's
Speaker 3: its own entity now, like you don't have to be
Speaker 3: so attached to it. Don't have to be on across
Speaker 3: everything about it.
Speaker 2: That's solid advice. Write that down everyone.
Speaker 1: Well, Johnny, it has been so great to have you
Speaker 1: on the pod. I'm looking forward to see where you
Speaker 1: take cake mail next. And hopefully we might have to
Speaker 1: get a cake mail vending machine in the Faith store
Speaker 1: or something, but put Faith branding all over it and
Speaker 1: have a fake cake machine. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming on the pod. Where can everyone find you? Obviously,
Speaker 1: we know you've got your vending.
Speaker 2: Machine in Chatswood. Go check it out. Where is it
Speaker 2: at the moment.
Speaker 3: In in Westfield Chatswood, in the food court.
Speaker 2: In the food court.
Speaker 1: If you're at Westfield Chatswood, go and go and get
Speaker 1: yourself a cake.
Speaker 2: And where else can everyone find cake Mail?
Speaker 3: And then you can just online so our website cakemail
Speaker 3: dot com dot at you and then you can pretty
Speaker 3: much pick whatever the cake you want and we deliver.
Speaker 2: What's your number one suggestion for.
Speaker 3: The Ferrara fountains a bestseller Ferrara that's the one where
Speaker 3: you lift up the plastic and or the chocolate palls
Speaker 3: down over the side of the cake.
Speaker 1: We might have to order one in for the Nova
Speaker 1: off us. We could order it today, Xandre, and it
Speaker 1: could be here today. We've still got forty five. Well,
Speaker 1: thanks Johnny so much for coming on, Thank you for
Speaker 1: having great to chat with you.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.