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Speaker 1: It's almost like in many, many periods of time, it

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Speaker 1: was a sin to have pleasure. Yeah, and it's really

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Speaker 1: nice to see that. Well, hopefully we're coming out of

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Speaker 1: that and we're coming out to us where it's actually

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Speaker 1: okay to enjoy things and to talk about them and

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Speaker 1: to experiment.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to separate bathrooms.

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Speaker 3: We would like to acknowledge the gadical people of the urination,

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Speaker 3: the traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects

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Speaker 3: to the elders, both past and present. I'm Ali Dado

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Speaker 3: and I am flying solo today. But look, I did

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Speaker 3: think that we should have some fun today, and by fun,

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Speaker 3: I mean some kinky sexual fun.

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Speaker 2: How about that? Who would have thought? Also? Who would have.

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Speaker 3: Thought that mathematics and the history of human sex could

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Speaker 3: be so entertaining?

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Speaker 2: Okay, follow me here. This is how it works.

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Speaker 3: Mother and daughter academic duo doctor Susan James and Esme

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Speaker 3: James have combined their respective knowledge of mathematics and human

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Speaker 3: sexual history and they're on a bit of a mission

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Speaker 3: to explore intimate life with an Australian and probably the

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Speaker 3: world's society, helping to erase the taboo which still exists

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Speaker 3: around a really important subject. So Esme is a sex historian.

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Speaker 3: She's incredible. She's a content creator, she's an author. She's

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Speaker 3: working on a PhD at the University of Melbourne. She

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Speaker 3: you might actually know her from her series Kinky History.

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Speaker 3: She's got something like two point four million followers on

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Speaker 3: TikTok and heaps more on Instagram, and she's also done

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Speaker 3: a Ted talk on kinky History. Now, if you look

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Speaker 3: that one up, you'll be quite amazed at the opening

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Speaker 3: of that one.

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Speaker 2: Be ready for it now.

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Speaker 3: Her mom is doctor Susan James. She is a statistician

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Speaker 3: and together they created the popular sextistics series on TikTok.

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Speaker 3: They actually won a Double Acta Award for that one.

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Speaker 3: She also co wrote the book with Esme, Kinky History,

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Speaker 3: which was released in October last year, and they're actually

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Speaker 3: currently working on a second sextistics series. I cannot wait

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Speaker 3: to talk to these two, So let's welcome them into

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Speaker 3: the bathroom. Es May and Susie. As May James and

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Speaker 3: doctor Susan James, who I shall now be calling Susie

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Speaker 3: because we've been chatting before this and now we're best

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Speaker 3: of friends.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the bathroom. The two of you.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having it. It's been a

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Speaker 4: wonderful bathroom.

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Speaker 5: We have to be here.

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Speaker 2: I am on my own.

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Speaker 3: As I had mentioned earlier on, I actually would have

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Speaker 3: loved Cam to have been here for this, but his

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Speaker 3: he's given me strict instructions to give all the information

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Speaker 3: about anything to do with kinky sex afterwards. So we're

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Speaker 3: just going to die write in because it's such a

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Speaker 3: great I'm just so excited to talk to a mother

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Speaker 3: and daughter and like, how many mother and daughters have actually,

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Speaker 3: you know, in the kinky sex business together in a way.

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Speaker 4: I can't say many, that's not from an academic point

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Speaker 4: of view.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right.

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Speaker 3: What inspired you to write a book together about this

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Speaker 3: kinky sexual history.

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Speaker 4: It's been a bit of a journey we've both gone on.

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Speaker 4: When I started on social media and I was looking

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Speaker 4: at the history of gender identity and sexuality from a

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Speaker 4: historical point of view. There was a point during lockdown

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Speaker 4: when my social media really blew up, and you know

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Speaker 4: that they created a community that Mum and I were

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Speaker 4: just discussing some of the videos and you basically turned

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Speaker 4: around and said to me you know, where are we

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Speaker 4: in the conversation of liberation today?

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Speaker 5: Where do you see us being?

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Speaker 4: And I didn't really kind of you know, I was

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Speaker 4: coming at it from a historical point of view, and

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Speaker 4: you basically turned around and said to me, well, to

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Speaker 4: actually bring a conversation of today, we need to look

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Speaker 4: at things like statistics and mathematics, which is where you

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Speaker 4: come from.

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Speaker 1: Well, as we kept on all of our stories, she

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Speaker 1: kept telling us that we're on part of a cycle,

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Speaker 1: that this used to happen all of these years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's what everything we're doing, it's actually not new. It's

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Speaker 1: all been done before. We think it's new, but it's not.

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Speaker 1: And so I kind of just said to her, well,

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Speaker 1: if we want to actually put it into context, then

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Speaker 1: we actually have to look at what's happening now, so

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Speaker 1: we can kind of work out, you know, where are

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Speaker 1: we on that cycle and where we could have been

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Speaker 1: in another.

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Speaker 4: Five ten years. And you know, we cracked open a

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Speaker 4: bottle of wine that night.

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Speaker 2: As always.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, like, I know, some people think that

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Speaker 1: data's like really really nerdy and boring, but it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's actually there to tell stories. There to tell what's

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Speaker 1: happening now. On where we can possibly be in the future.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, we started working together, but our two heads

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Speaker 4: together to put the past and present into conversation.

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Speaker 1: But we basically talk about everything all the time anyhow,

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Speaker 1: So it was just more fun working absolutely.

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Speaker 6: I know.

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Speaker 3: It's it's not something that you would think. You know,

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Speaker 3: a statistician, you know, and kinky sex liked. We how

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Speaker 3: did we get those two blended? But you've done it beautifully?

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Speaker 3: Can you can you give us a brief overview of

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Speaker 3: what's actually in the book. The book is called Kinky History,

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Speaker 3: A rollicking Journey through our sexual past, present, and future.

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Speaker 3: It came out October last year. Of course you can

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Speaker 3: still grab it grab it anywhere. But what's that? What's

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Speaker 3: in the book? What's the juicy bits in the book

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Speaker 3: that we can read about.

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Speaker 4: We go through everything the stories of intimate lives past

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Speaker 4: and present, So we discuss some of the kinky private

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Speaker 4: lives of your favorite historical figures like Albert Einstein, James Joyce,

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Speaker 4: Catherine the Great and then as well as that, what

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Speaker 4: we've decided to do is put those conversations about, you know,

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Speaker 4: the sourcy secrets from ancient times until now. In conversation

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Speaker 4: with what are we doing today? So ye, mums created

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Speaker 4: some fantastic and statistics that you know, have never been

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Speaker 4: done before, and looked at contemporary research, looking at things

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Speaker 4: like how many people are rimming nowadays, how many marriages,

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Speaker 4: you know, what happens in terms of divorces, sex after marriage.

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Speaker 5: You can speak more to this than.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean a lot a lot of the stuff.

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Speaker 1: What we did was we went back and we had

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Speaker 1: a look at some of the huge national surveys that

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Speaker 1: collect data on all sorts of relationships. But we decided

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Speaker 1: that rather than look at just old research articles that

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Speaker 1: are a bit stayed, we actually put out and did

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Speaker 1: our own survey so over so social media. We duplicated

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Speaker 1: lots of the questions that people have answered, you know,

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Speaker 1: about their sexual experience and their identity and the gender,

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Speaker 1: and we asked them all again and we actually got

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Speaker 1: like fifteen thousand responses from people and a lot of

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Speaker 1: that data. Then we were able to, in the context

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Speaker 1: of the book say well, you know, this is how

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Speaker 1: many people were doing it then, and this is how

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Speaker 1: many people are doing now.

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Speaker 4: This is what oral looked like in ancient Rome, and

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Speaker 4: this is what oral looks like in Melbourne twenty twenty three, right.

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Speaker 3: Because the Romans were pretty kinky, right, that is where

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Speaker 3: it was anything and anything and anything and everyone. How

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Speaker 3: I'm so curious, like, how did you is there encyclopedias

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Speaker 3: of kinky sex online? How did you actually find the

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Speaker 3: history of those historical figures and what they were into.

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Speaker 4: It's really interesting And what I love most about my

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Speaker 4: work is that these stories have almost always been in

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Speaker 4: the history books and these conversations about sex, gender identity.

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Speaker 4: I've always been there, but they're almost in the margin.

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Speaker 4: They're in passing references, they're in lost letters and diary

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Speaker 4: entries and.

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Speaker 5: Journals of these favorite historical figures.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I'm very privileged to come from a

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Speaker 4: great tradition of like other historians who have touched on this.

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Speaker 4: And when you put all of these stories together, you know,

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Speaker 4: essentially with what we've done with kinky history, then you

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Speaker 4: kind of see this kind of new history book where

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Speaker 4: people from the past finally with kind of reclaiming their stories.

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Speaker 4: And it's just put in all those like little lost

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Speaker 4: pages that were kind of left on the cutting room

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Speaker 4: floor of edits of textbooks past together and it's really interesting.

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Speaker 4: We have stories from the ancient worlds that are still

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Speaker 4: kind of being uncovered in places like the sites of Pompeii,

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Speaker 4: where we find drawings and engravings on walls that are

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Speaker 4: telling these erotic stories about how sex lives used to look.

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Speaker 5: And we're still finding all of these facts out.

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Speaker 4: And as Mum said, you know, one of the most

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Speaker 4: record occurring factors is that nothing is new under this sun.

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Speaker 4: We've been spanking, we've been interested in foot fetishes, so

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Speaker 4: you know, we've experimented with dillos from twenty eight thousand

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Speaker 4: years ago.

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Speaker 5: Like, nothing is new under this sun.

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Speaker 1: And there's been people who have been researching sex for many,

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Speaker 1: many years, mostly though they've been doing it from the

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Speaker 1: health perspective. But I mean you've got that, you know,

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Speaker 1: people like Masts and Johnson who did heaps of research

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Speaker 1: into the orgasm and how do women have orgasms? And

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Speaker 1: they had their very famous glass dildo which they had

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Speaker 1: a camera inside and they had people and they were

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Speaker 1: filming them having orgasms.

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Speaker 4: And this is in the nineteen as nineteen sixties, eighties, and.

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Speaker 1: Then they were doing this to try and improve people's

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Speaker 1: sex life, to you know, to make relationships healthier, and

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Speaker 1: so that all of this is out there, so we

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Speaker 1: decided to put those kind of stories together. So we

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Speaker 1: had all your historical figures, but with along with somebody

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Speaker 1: sex researchers from the past or the statisticians mostly who

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Speaker 1: quite bonkers themselves, you know. And you know, Marsins and

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Speaker 1: Johnson were actually quite famous for the fact that they

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Speaker 1: were researching sex, but they're also having sex as well.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 4: When they couldn't get any more participants to come on

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Speaker 4: their project while they were studying the orgasm, they just

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Speaker 4: filmed themselves having them sex and they kind of said

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Speaker 4: to their partners like, it's for research. Sorry, we must

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Speaker 4: have sex with one another because sorry, anyone else to

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Speaker 4: come in.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, honey, I'm going to be late today. I've got

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Speaker 3: some sex to do for work.

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Speaker 5: What did you guys do today, old doggie?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know, wow.

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Speaker 1: Mind that's a bit like sort of the conversations we've

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Speaker 1: had and you said, what have you been doing today?

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Speaker 1: And I said, I've been doing master basher honey. Actually mean,

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Speaker 1: I've been.

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Speaker 4: Researching on it.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes I think, okay, right, we have to be

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Speaker 1: careful how we talk to each other, especially when we're

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Speaker 1: in a cafe and people can hear us.

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Speaker 2: That's right, who's listening in?

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Speaker 3: I remember it was it was not that long ago

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Speaker 3: that because I don't know you would know this much more.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure both of you, especially you Suzie, like how

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Speaker 3: little we do know about about sex and the female

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Speaker 3: But I remember just it wasn't that long ago that

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Speaker 3: they really fully understood that the female sex organs and

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Speaker 3: the size of the clitterists and what actually happens and

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Speaker 3: how big it actually is.

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Speaker 2: And yes, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean even that was a surprise to me, and I'm

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Speaker 3: a female. I was like, whoa, we got something really

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Speaker 3: good going on in there.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing.

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Speaker 4: I think the story of the clitterists is a fantastic one,

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Speaker 4: and one of my favorite facts about it was that

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Speaker 4: a man in the fourteen hundreds called Colombo decided to

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Speaker 4: discover the clitteris so sorry, yes, it's always a guy

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Speaker 4: called columb and he decided to call it the seat

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Speaker 4: of Venus, and he thought he just discovered this part

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Speaker 4: of the female body. And it was the first time,

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Speaker 4: one of the first times that we've kind of named

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Speaker 4: the clitoris. But what's important to remember, for the majority

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Speaker 4: of history until about two hundred years ago, we thought

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Speaker 4: that in order to conceive a child, both the man

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Speaker 4: and woman had to have an orgasm. So the clitteris

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Speaker 4: and stimulation of a woman was actually very, very important.

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Speaker 4: You had to bring it to the brink of orgasm.

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Speaker 4: Now two hundred years ago, when we start, you know,

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Speaker 4: we become much more medicalized. We start understanding the human

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Speaker 4: body in a way we haven't before. We discovered that

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Speaker 4: women don't need to orgasm in order for a child

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Speaker 4: to be conceived, and so what happens we just throw

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Speaker 4: all of these techniques that we've been teaching out the window.

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Speaker 4: We completely do not talk about women's stimulation because if

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Speaker 4: women don't need to be stimulated, and all this is

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Speaker 4: doing is given them pleasure, then that's incredibly sinful and

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Speaker 4: it's probably driving them wild. And so we stopped talking

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Speaker 4: about the clitorists and sexual pleasure until researchers like Masters

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Speaker 4: and Johnson come around, you know, in the nineteen hundreds

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Speaker 4: and kind of again. They study the female orgasm, and

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Speaker 4: one of their biggest findings was that women are more

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Speaker 4: likely to orgasm when their clitoris is stimulated than when

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Speaker 4: they have a phallic shape inside of them, which changes

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Speaker 4: are thinking again about female pleasure, and in that period

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Speaker 4: of time, we were ready to open up that conversation again.

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Speaker 4: So the clitterist is back on the table, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, that's fascinating.

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Speaker 3: And during that time, just because I wrote a book

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Speaker 3: on menopause, during that Victorian era, which of course is

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Speaker 3: probably around that two hundred years ago or so, that's

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Speaker 3: when they were removing the clitterists because they thought that

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Speaker 3: was a cure for menopause, and that it was menopause

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Speaker 3: hysteria induced. People were being you know, locked away while

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Speaker 3: women I should say, not people, but that this was

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Speaker 3: somehow the cure for so many things, that this was

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Speaker 3: this dangerous item on a woman's body.

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Speaker 4: And I think all of these conversations you can see

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Speaker 4: time and time again. And one of the messages of

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Speaker 4: the book is that conversations about sex don't they've never

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Speaker 4: had to do with just us and our relationship to

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Speaker 4: their body. There's so many external factors in play. There

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Speaker 4: are social, political, religious factors always in play that determine

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Speaker 4: how we relate to our body. And the conversation about

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Speaker 4: the clitorists is such a clear example of that. Because

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Speaker 4: you come to this period of time where it's about

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Speaker 4: controlling women and their sense of ownership over their body.

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Speaker 4: You know, you even have to look at the way

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Speaker 4: that in that period of time, we start discussing terms

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Speaker 4: of to do with the female parts. You know, the

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Speaker 4: C word used to be a very common word we'd

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Speaker 4: use for the volva, and around that time, that same

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Speaker 4: time as you're saying that they're cutting off the clitterists,

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Speaker 4: where you start describing it as an ugly name for

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Speaker 4: an ugly thing, and we create the sense of disgust

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Speaker 4: for the female body, and again it's about controlling women

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Speaker 4: and their sense of ownership and agency.

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Speaker 3: What was the most surprising thing that you discovered with

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Speaker 3: the research?

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Speaker 1: I think possibly a lot of it was to do

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Speaker 1: with people's sexual identity, because one of the questions that

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Speaker 1: we asked people what, you know, how do you identify?

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Speaker 1: And we allowed them to have a category where they

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Speaker 1: were able to fill in how they're identified. And what

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Speaker 1: really surprised me was how many different ways people perceived

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Speaker 1: themselves and a lot of you know, identities about a

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Speaker 1: relationship status as opposed to sexual status. And it was actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, to me that opened my eyes to how

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Speaker 1: people these days feel that they don't want to be

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Speaker 1: labeled into little boxes, and they want to have the

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Speaker 1: right to be able to describe themselves.

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Speaker 7: In so many different ways.

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Speaker 1: So that was one of the things I found with

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Speaker 1: the work that we did with our our research. Also,

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Speaker 1: just the different ways that women have been perceived over

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Speaker 1: the years with sex being functional and the difference between

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Speaker 1: it being functional and pleasurable. It's almost like, you know,

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Speaker 1: in many, many periods of time, it was a sin

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Speaker 1: to have pleasure. Yeah, and it's really nice to see

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Speaker 1: that we're hopefully we're coming out of that and we're

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Speaker 1: coming out to us where it's actually okay to enjoy

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Speaker 1: things and to talk about them and to experiment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, did your what did your findings?

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Speaker 3: I'm just asking because I know, a I'm at the

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Speaker 3: age of being fifty four and a lot of my

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Speaker 3: friends there are a similar age, and I think we've

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Speaker 3: got a few listeners in that category too. What did

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Speaker 3: you find statistic wise and in your research about women

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Speaker 3: as they age, maybe post menopause. I know that a

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Speaker 3: lot of my friends are like, I could not give

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Speaker 3: a rat's ass about sexy anymore. Is that something common

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Speaker 3: that you saw in your research back through history? Is

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Speaker 3: this a new thing? Like where are we at today?

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Speaker 3: Is that changing?

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Speaker 1: I think you'll find though, these days, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot more women who are now purchasing things like a

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Speaker 1: sex toys, and because it's people are bigginning to realize

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Speaker 1: it's actually okay to play that sex. As I say,

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Speaker 1: it's not functional anymore. It is there to be enjoyable

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Speaker 1: and to be playful. And you'd find that there's an

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Speaker 1: awful lot of women who have only just started to

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Speaker 1: purchase things like five Greiters and all sorts of sex

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Speaker 1: toys and then beginning to ask, hey, this is actually

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Speaker 1: really good fun and it can be it can enhance

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Speaker 1: a sexual relationship. And I mean, I mean that generation

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Speaker 1: myself and I'm having a ball. I'm not much happier

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Speaker 1: these Maybe that's because I've been able to have conversations

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Speaker 1: with my daughter. We talk about all of these things and.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I bought you your first sex story about.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, she did. Seven years ago.

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Speaker 7: She told me that she bought.

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Speaker 5: Me a Harley.

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Speaker 1: I was a bit surprised because I didn't know what

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Speaker 1: a Harley was, but she.

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Speaker 5: Was getting a motorbike and.

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Speaker 3: Did.

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Speaker 1: But I got to say it may not be a motorbike,

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Speaker 1: but it was. It's a pretty good ride.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I mean that's the quote.

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Speaker 7: I mean when used to.

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Speaker 1: Work in a store and they you had many many

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Speaker 1: women who coming in in that age group who would

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Speaker 1: suddenly think, actually, I wouldn't mind, you know, what.

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Speaker 7: Can I buy?

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Speaker 1: And then they come back and they that was good?

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Speaker 1: So what else can be by? Yeah, it's not And

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Speaker 1: it's not just solo plate, it's a couple's plate. Can

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Speaker 1: actually be something that you can then bring into a

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Speaker 1: relationship and say, okay, all right, Yeah, maybe things have

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Speaker 1: become a bit stagnant and we've got jobs and we've

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Speaker 1: got kids, but hang on a minute, this actually feels

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Speaker 1: quite good.

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Speaker 7: We can shy this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think what's really interesting when we've looked at the

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Speaker 4: conversation of menopause, and it's something that we're exploring in

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Speaker 4: more detail in our kind of next season and.

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Speaker 5: Survey of sexistics that we're working on.

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Speaker 4: But one of the most interesting things is that you've

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Speaker 4: kind of got two factors here. You've got one of

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Speaker 4: the largest and quickest growing demographics for sex toys is women.

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Speaker 5: Fifty plus.

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Speaker 4: That they are some of the biggest and fastest growing

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Speaker 4: consumers of sex toys. And then you have this other

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Speaker 4: you know fact, which is women over fifty are also

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Speaker 4: some of the people who, out of everyone, the demographic

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Speaker 4: that will say that they've never experienced an orgasm, you know,

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Speaker 4: And when you have a very different conversation for these

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Speaker 4: generations that they you know, potentially they've been married once twice,

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Speaker 4: you know, and sex has always been seen as this

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Speaker 4: thing that you know, might be between man and woman,

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Speaker 4: and their pleasure isn't really being brought into conversation. When

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Speaker 4: they say they're not interested in sex anymore, that might

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Speaker 4: not necessarily mean sexual pleasure, that might just mean sex

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Speaker 4: with the partner because they've you know, if a huge

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Speaker 4: amount of them are claiming, like nearly half, if not more,

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Speaker 4: that they've never been able or never had an orgasm,

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Speaker 4: or never thought they've had an orgasm. And then you've

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Speaker 4: got this other demographic that is quickly buying sex toys

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Speaker 4: and exploring for the first time orgasm. You know. As

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Speaker 4: Mum says, I love that word play because it is

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Speaker 4: this sense of play and exploring your body in a

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Speaker 4: new way, and potentially one that doesn't mean that you're

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Speaker 4: dependent on someone else. You know, being able to pleasure

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Speaker 4: yourself and that sense of autonomy.

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Speaker 1: We're about to do a new kind of fresh survey

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Speaker 1: which is not based on all the old style questions

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Speaker 1: that used to come up in the sort of national

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Speaker 1: health surveys.

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Speaker 7: So we decided that we would actually put.

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Speaker 1: Out and actually ask people what kinds of questions they

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Speaker 1: would like in a survey. And this is what I'm

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Speaker 1: going for at the moment, so I can put their

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Speaker 1: questions into a survey.

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Speaker 7: But the questions that we were getting.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the running themes were I've been with

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Speaker 1: my partner for this long? How can I revive us

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Speaker 1: sex life? Or I don't really want to have sex anymore?

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Speaker 1: What can I do about it? And it was like

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Speaker 1: they weren't really the kind of questions we wanted to

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Speaker 1: put in the survey, but they were asking us and

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Speaker 1: so many, so many of them were about that kind

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Speaker 1: of long term relationship status, how can how can we

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Speaker 1: bring this back?

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Speaker 7: And also there.

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Speaker 1: Are many, many many women who said, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I've ever had an orgasm?

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Speaker 7: How can I know if I have?

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Speaker 1: Not sure how we're going to build that into a survey.

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Speaker 1: But it was actually really quite you know when we

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Speaker 1: when we read through the questions that you could see

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Speaker 1: that there are these there's people out there and they

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Speaker 1: really don't know if they've ever had an orgasm. And

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Speaker 1: and then there are people out there who know that

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Speaker 1: things are and they would say, I love my partner,

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Speaker 1: with my partner for many, many years, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know what to do to revive our sex life. So

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Speaker 1: there are people out there who want information, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of it comes down to having conversations with your

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Speaker 1: partner as well. And that's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: you find if you've got a healthy conversation, you can

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Speaker 1: have that you know and sort of say, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: I love you very much, for what can we do,

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Speaker 1: you know, spice things up?

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Speaker 3: And yes, you're so right. And it's really about being

435
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Speaker 3: able to give yourself permission because I feel like that's

436
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Speaker 3: been so stripped from women for so long. Is like

437
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Speaker 3: that we get to have pleasure for pleasure's sake, as

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Speaker 3: you were saying, and particularly as we get older, it's like, ah,

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Speaker 3: it's just another job or to do thing or something,

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Speaker 3: you know, and it's like to flip it, as you

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Speaker 3: were saying, Susie into this idea of play. I remember

442
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 3: a sex therapist that came on many years ago. She

443
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: was saying, sex is a schmorgasport, like it can be

444
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 3: all sorts of things like it does. Don't think missionary,

445
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: think think toys like what you two are saying, Think toys,

446
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 3: think lube, think you know positions? Is it just holding

447
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 3: hands and saying what your fantasies are or whatever it is.

448
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 3: And it was just really beautiful to keep opening that

449
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 3: as you say, that conversation, the ideas, the thoughts, because

450
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: I know I'm.

451
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 2: Very guilty of that.

452
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: I didn't grow up necessarily in a sex positive household.

453
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 3: No one ever talked to me about sex or what

454
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 3: was available. I just thought it was something that it's

455
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 3: what helps you and your partner stay together, and that

456
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 3: was that was kind of it. So it's been a

457
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 3: long journey for me to sort of understand that, you know,

458
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 3: we can all have pleasure, or there's only two of

459
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 3: us in the bedroom right now. But yeah, I just

460
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 3: love I just love the message that you're giving. It's

461
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 3: really important and I think especially for us women at

462
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: a certain age that need to know that, you know,

463
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 3: our sex life is not over.

464
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 4: No, I think you know that there's some fantastic resources now,

465
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 4: but you know, one of the hardest things is opening

466
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 4: up that conversation and how do you do it. And

467
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 4: when we were recently in Dublin, we were working with

468
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 4: a fantastic sex educator called Jenny Keane and she's put

469
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 4: together this kind of list of yes and no and

470
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 4: goes through various things and she says, you know, sit

471
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 4: down with your partner, look at this list, have a

472
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 4: bottle of wine and just chat about it. And it

473
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 4: will be stuff like have you ever fantasized about.

474
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 5: Being dominated?

475
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 4: Have you ever fantasized about being told off? You know,

476
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 4: and like all these kind of things that you know,

477
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 4: unless you're sitting there with a list, people potentially have

478
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,479
Speaker 4: never talked about these aspects of fantasy in imagination, and

479
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 4: imagination in itself can play such a huge role in

480
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 4: sexual life. You know, as you say, we need to

481
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 4: take away this idea that sex is just missionary. Sometimes

482
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 4: it cannot involve any kind of penetration, you know. Sometimes

483
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 4: it can be as simple as feeling, like bodily stimulation

484
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 4: from feathers or silk on the body. You know, there's

485
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 4: different ways that we can be erotic and play and

486
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 4: be sensual with our partner or partners. And I really

487
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 4: like the idea of this list of just you know,

488
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: potentially opening up a conversation because our partner could be

489
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 4: like one of them would be like, no, I've never

490
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:08,959
Speaker 4: wanted to be spanked, and the other one was like,

491
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 4: do you know what, I've actually.

492
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,239
Speaker 5: Maybe wanted to try that a little bit.

493
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe I do want to try spanking, you know.

494
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

495
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: Well, the list was helpful because it gave people something

496
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: to almost make it like a game, yes, to read

497
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: through the listener, go okay, what about this as opposed

498
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: to trying to open up conversation with you know, is

499
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: there anything you would like to do that we haven't done? Yes?

500
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a really not an easy way to do.

501
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: It, you know, so yeah, or even asking what their

502
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 3: fantasy is as well might be hard for some people.

503
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 3: But if you've got you've got like a stack of questions,

504
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 3: then you can get to it a little easier.

505
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 4: Well, there was this really fantastic moment that we had

506
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 4: so in Dublin, we when we were celebrating the international

507
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 4: launch of the book in June, we did an event

508
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 4: and it was a King event run by this educator,

509
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 4: Jenny Keane, and as part of it, she you know,

510
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 4: I had a conversation about the history of sex. We

511
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 4: had a dominat trix come out and do a kind

512
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 4: of workshop on spanking. And one of the most incredible

513
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 4: moments that we've spoken about after this event, like the takeaway,

514
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 4: was when the dominatrix was kind of teaching people how

515
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 4: to spank, because it's a skill to it. She was

516
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 4: doing a bit of a workshop and then she asked

517
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 4: anyone in the audience, like, you know, does anyone want

518
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 4: to come up and you can choose to be spanked

519
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 4: or I can teach you how to spank. And this

520
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 4: woman who was in her seventies put up her hand

521
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 4: and then she came up on stage and she's like,

522
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 4: can you please teach me how to spank?

523
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 5: And so she learnt and she was wonderful natural.

524
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: And then at the end of the evening, this is

525
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 4: a really hard It sounds kinky, but it was a

526
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 4: really really wholesome evening of people of all ages.

527
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 5: Coming together just to learn.

528
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 4: At the end of the evening, there was a time

529
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,719
Speaker 4: for questions and questions and statements from to all of

530
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 4: the educators and this woman put up her hand and

531
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 4: she said, I just wanted to say thank you because

532
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: I've been with my husband now for forty years, and

533
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 4: I came tonight because I wanted to try and understand

534
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 4: this fantasy that he had, and I've never been able

535
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 4: to understand it or the psychology behind it. And I've

536
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 4: in all of our years of marriage, you know, we've

537
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 4: never experimented with it. Tonight, but after hearing the psychology

538
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 4: behind this fantasy, why you know what it could do

539
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 4: for him? You know, You've given me the confidence tonight

540
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 4: to try this. And she was just so genuine and lovely.

541
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: I mean, she said that she'd always thought that her

542
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: husband was a bit of a freak because he said

543
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: that he wouldn't mind doing this, and she said and

544
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: then the whole idea was that what made the event

545
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: so good because it made it all normal. They talked about,

546
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: as you say, the psychology behind it and how it

547
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: can actually make people some you know, feel good, and

548
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: there were it was incredible. They got the whole audience

549
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: stood up at one stage and you had to turn

550
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: to the person next to you and you had to

551
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: practice how this technique of bankking and most people were

552
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: doing it with totally random strangers. Now it was hilarious

553
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: and it was just it was it was normal, it

554
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: was fun. And then at the end of everyone having

555
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: a bit of a practice because they were all giving

556
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: little paddles, brushes, some wooden spoons you know, on their

557
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: chairs to use, and they all sat down and we

558
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: went on to the next session and it was just like, Okay.

559
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: It was hysterically. I've never seen it. It was a

560
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 4: room of two hundred people laughing hysterically and just and

561
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 4: you know, some people were there with their partners, some

562
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 4: people were there with their friends, and everyone was just

563
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: having a great time. Some people are on their own.

564
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

565
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was really nice.

566
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: Imagine bumping into like the person that you spanked, like,

567
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: you know, two weeks to spank you in that kinky workshop, Like.

568
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 4: Two is really familiar to me, so you look really familiar.

569
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: If you just bend over again, Yeah, it was easier.

570
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: It was definitely.

571
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 3: Have you found in your research that won certain countries

572
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 3: are further ahead in their openness about their sexuality and

573
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: what they're into, Like well, always, for some reason, I

574
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 3: always think of Amsterdam.

575
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, like that's probably completely.

576
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 3: Wrong, but like our Australia progressive in their sex kinks

577
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: or is where have you discovered that's sort of really

578
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 3: open or rather really closed.

579
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: Certainly in terms of buying sex toys Australia, Okay, And

580
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: I think that was that became even more so during

581
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: the pandemic. We were locked down for so long, we

582
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: locked each other down.

583
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 4: Well there's until though, will I get this week there's

584
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 4: a really interesting stat that we talk about, which is

585
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 4: as every state in Australia went into lockdown, their sex

586
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 4: toy sales tripled.

587
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 8: Wow. Yeah.

588
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 4: And this happened in Brisbane, it happened in Melbourne, it

589
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 4: happened in Sydney. Sex toy sales tripled within the course

590
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 4: of months in each one of these states. We literally

591
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 4: were like, well, if we're gonna stay here, we're gonna.

592
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 5: Do it down.

593
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 7: We need something to do, yeah.

594
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 4: Which I also think speaks to the fact that there

595
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 4: is a there's clearly enough openness of conversation in Australia

596
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 4: that that is the immediate thought of a lot of people.

597
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 4: And it wasn't just sex toys, it was bondage items

598
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 4: as well. That okay, saw a huge skyrocket.

599
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, a different form of lockdown a different.

600
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 5: Form of lockdown.

601
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

602
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: What do you hope readers will take away from reading

603
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: your book?

604
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: Which I hope everyone gets your book.

605
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: By the way, because I love the sound of it.

606
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 7: Just that it's normal.

607
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, sex is normal, Relationships can be you want them

608
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: to be, and how you define your relationship because we

609
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of other things as well, about

610
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: the ability with partners to be open what you want

611
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: from a relationship and what they want, and that nothing

612
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: has nothing's new nothing. Yeah, whatever you can think of

613
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: you might possibly want, it's probably already been done.

614
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think you know, the ongoing theme of

615
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 4: the book is about openness of conversation, which the book

616
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 4: is actually staged around this kind of fictional dinner party.

617
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 4: And you know, while we're talking about facts from the

618
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 4: past and the present, one of the ways that we

619
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 4: made it really fun was that we have this kind

620
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 4: of ongoing metaphor throughout the book of all of these

621
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 4: famous figures being around a dinner table and we're all

622
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 4: having a party and we're all chatting, because this is

623
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 4: meant to be an open conversation, and it's meant to

624
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 4: be a welcoming conversation, and.

625
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,719
Speaker 5: Also it should be silly.

626
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 4: There is a sense of joy and play when it

627
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 4: comes to these conversations that really changes our relationship to them.

628
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 4: We don't have to look at sex in a medicalized way.

629
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 4: We don't have to you know, have the sense of

630
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 4: like being.

631
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 5: Very very serious. We can be silly.

632
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: James Joyce was talking about his wife's farts. Mozart is

633
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 4: writing canons about licking people's asses. You know, there's this

634
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 4: sense of silliness of sex that we are still trying

635
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 4: to reclaim. I think a little bit today, which was

636
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 4: one of the reasons we staged it around this dinner

637
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 4: party and we have all these people being silly. You know,

638
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 4: we have Virginia Wolf on the table doing tangos while

639
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 4: talking about her bisexual experiences. Like there's a sense of silliness.

640
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: No, that's also because we spent a lot of time

641
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: around the dinner table talking about all sorts of things,

642
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: discussing the things that we were learning.

643
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 7: I learned a lot writing, really did. But you know,

644
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 7: we would read.

645
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: Articles on things and you know, whatever it was, and

646
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: we would about them. So we just wanted people to

647
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: be involved in that dialogue. And most of the book

648
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: is set where we're actually talking to the reader as

649
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: well to try and get them to participate and think

650
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: about the conversations.

651
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 4: Well, that's it. We want people to agree, disagree, cry, laugh,

652
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 4: you know, we really want this to be a very

653
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 4: there's a sense of inclusion for the reader to be

654
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 4: part of this book and one of our Since we

655
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 4: started working together, one of the most common things that

656
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 4: we have seen and been messaged is this sense of

657
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 4: some people, you know, looking up to our relationship with

658
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 4: one another, and we get messages saying, you know, I

659
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 4: wish I had this with my own mum, or I

660
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 4: wish I'll one day have this with my daughter, And

661
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 4: so there was also a sense of, you know, wanting

662
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 4: to invite people to our own dinner table and part

663
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 4: of this conversation as well.

664
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's so true.

665
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 3: One of my questions that I had written down was,

666
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: you know, we've spoken to quite a few sex and

667
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: family therapists on the podcast, and they have all encouraged,

668
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: in fact, said how important it is to normalize conversations

669
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 3: with your children about sex. Was that something that you

670
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 3: just knew to do, Susie, Was that something that you'd

671
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 3: been doing with esme is actually have more kids than

672
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 3: Esmai is it.

673
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: Just yeah, So Esmy has a younger brother. And I

674
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 1: think probably one of the reasons that our relationship has

675
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: developed how it has, it's you and our beautiful little darling.

676
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: He's he's disabled, I mean you inside beautiful Giant six

677
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: book two. He can't speak or do anything for himself.

678
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: He just brings us joy.

679
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 7: But he was actually.

680
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: Growing up looking after him was not not easy and

681
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: and some of the things that go on in our

682
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: household were really bonkers, really bonkers, yes, And we had

683
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: to do things in order to look after you.

684
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 4: And that many many don't.

685
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: They don't do and you know that, you know, people

686
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 1: would sometimes feel like, oh really almost almost disgusted. Yea.

687
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: But so we grew up in a together looking after him,

688
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: and in a house where all sorts of things happened.

689
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 5: Could go wrong, you know. And I suppose because.

690
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,959
Speaker 1: We we talked about many, many different things with him,

691
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: we just, I don't know, it became natural that we

692
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: would talk to each other about absolutely everything, Esmi. You

693
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: always has always told me everything.

694
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 6: Sometimes too much, but that's but so therefore, you know it,

695
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 6: we just developed that way that we have a very

696
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 6: we are obviously extremely close.

697
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 4: I think there's a you know, there's a two kind

698
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 4: of factors to that. There's the factor of our mother

699
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 4: and daughter relationship was always there was also a care

700
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 4: element to that as well, which changes the sense of

701
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 4: responsibility and authority when you're both looking after someone. And

702
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 4: then there's another factor of when you have the position

703
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 4: of being a keerr and you're looking after someone whose

704
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 4: body is vulnerable and there is a sense of kind

705
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 4: of collapsing of the body and what it means to

706
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 4: relate to the body, and you know all of that,

707
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 4: I guess I say the clothing, but like the dressing

708
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: up that we do of humans and what's private and

709
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 4: what's not private, it all kind of we didn't have that,

710
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 4: We didn't have those marks. You're looking after a vulnerable

711
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 4: human and another human's body, So those conversations about bodily

712
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: function has always been We've been able to kind of

713
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 4: open up and you know that it's such a privilege

714
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,959
Speaker 4: to be a carer and have that relationship to someone else.

715
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 4: That sense of trust and conversation about that then flows

716
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 4: really naturally because of that.

717
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, what an incredible I mean, that life experience

718
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: for both of you from learning from your son and

719
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: how you've handled and where this has led you.

720
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: That's what a journey to be where you are today.

721
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 4: We're very He's an absolute light in our lives.

722
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 7: I think it's made us appreciate so much more.

723
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: You know, she really has and and you know, we

724
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: always were happy, you know, and one of the things

725
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: we really focused on is making sure that you always

726
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: look on the positive side of absolutely everything, and you

727
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: do whatever you can to turn some situations into fun.

728
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 4: I was actually having a conversation last night about because

729
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 4: so my brother he needs help with going to the bathroom, eating,

730
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 4: you know, all basic needs, and we'll always have someone

731
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 4: watching him at all times. I was telling a story

732
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 4: last night. Someone said, did you used to have a

733
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 4: pool when you were little? And I was like, actually,

734
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: we had a pool in our family house, and I

735
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 4: just remembered the memory of one day trying to bring

736
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 4: my brother into the pool, and I was like by myself,

737
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 4: I was like, you know what, I can be big

738
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 4: and brave. I'm a big sister. I will go swimming together.

739
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 4: And you went's hand instantly got caught like in the

740
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 4: filter of the pool, and I was like, oh my god,

741
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 4: Oh my god, what am I going to do?

742
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: What am I going to do?

743
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 4: His hand's going to be chopped off. And then mom

744
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 4: comes home from work and she's like, what the hell

745
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 4: are you doing? Why's you went's arm in there? I

746
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 4: was like, Mom, jump in the pool.

747
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 3: You've got to.

748
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 5: Grab you one's arms.

749
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 4: So you jumped in the pool with all your clothes

750
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 4: on to grab you one's arm, and you're like, run

751
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 4: to the neighbor's house and get a chainsaw. And so

752
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 4: I ran to the neighbor's house in my.

753
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 5: Baby's and these neighbors who we'd never spoken to.

754
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 8: I was like, can I have a chain saw my

755
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 8: brother's in the pool, and then I got in and

756
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 8: then you were like shopping you in out of the

757
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 8: pool with this chainsaw while we were both in our

758
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 8: like clothes at this stage.

759
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 4: And then you know, my brother's fine and he's laughing,

760
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 4: and we just looked at each other, soak him. Wait

761
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 4: in the pool. You're still in your clothes from work.

762
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 4: I've been running around with a chainsaw, and we're just like,

763
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 4: this is hysterical.

764
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 5: This is hysterical.

765
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 4: And it was moments like that that take these kind

766
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 4: of bizarre situations and it just becomes something that was funny.

767
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 5: And it bonds us. Sure that's really special.

768
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got childhood stories and then you've got some

769
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: that's a childhood story.

770
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,439
Speaker 4: It's a unique experience, it sure is, it sure is. Hey,

771
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 4: look you.

772
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 3: Talked about you know, I love that the way you've

773
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 3: written the book around set around a dinner party in

774
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: that way, it's so so clever. If you could have

775
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 3: dinner with any of the historical figures related to your book,

776
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 3: who would it be and why?

777
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 4: Oh hmm, that's I mean, it really depends on which

778
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 4: ones were really quite fun in the book. I think

779
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 4: you would choose some of the sex researchers when Yeah.

780
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 7: I would definitely choose Masters because he's a real character. Yeah, Einstein.

781
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 4: Einstein, einsteiners who I was thinking as well.

782
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 7: He's such a serious person.

783
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 1: But he had all sorts of views on relationships.

784
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 4: Yes, Einstein wrote that he believed monogamy to be the

785
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 4: bitter fruit of all marriage, and he believed that humans

786
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 4: were naturally polyamorous, and he, you know, had he cheated

787
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 4: on both of his wives many many times. Because while

788
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 4: he believed in free love, he only believed in it

789
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 4: for him and not for the wife. But interesting, you know,

790
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 4: I think he's a fantastic so fantastic. I think he's

791
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 4: a really interesting historical figure because genius, you know, is

792
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 4: now synonymous with Einstein. And at the same time you

793
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 4: have a man who has a like, you know, what

794
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 4: seems like quite liberal rules, rules and views on love

795
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 4: and what it means to be in a relationship. But

796
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 4: at the same time, those views of free love are

797
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 4: very much shaped by the culture that he belonged to,

798
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 4: which was a patriarchal culture that women would stay home

799
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 4: and bring him. You know, he writes a letter of

800
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 4: demand to his wife and then it basically says, you know,

801
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 4: when I come home from my affairs, dinner will be ready.

802
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 5: On the table for me, you know.

803
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 4: And so I think he's a I would love to

804
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 4: talk to him and kind of firstly put him in

805
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: his place.

806
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, the dialogue would be like, how do you think

807
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: that could possibly be right?

808
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 4: But you know, we spoke about him at length because

809
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 4: we found him such a fascinating and sure, you know,

810
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 4: that's a triple factor there. You've got his influence for

811
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 4: his work, you've got his liberal views on love, but

812
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 4: then you've got how he was shaped by external factors

813
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 4: like cultural pressures.

814
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:58,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

815
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: Is there is Is there a woman that you researched

816
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: that you admire for her sexuality, her flavor, her experience.

817
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: I know they always talk about free to Carlo, but yeah,

818
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: is there someone that just speaks to you that's like

819
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 3: she was owning it all?

820
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

821
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 7: I was looking at me.

822
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 4: She knows exactly what I'm going to say. Okay, I

823
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 4: want to talk about Gertrude Stein. Gertrude Stein is this

824
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 4: incredible figure at the turn of the nineteen hundreds. She

825
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 4: is considered like the mother of modernism. She's an incredible writer.

826
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 4: She is the reason that we have existing works of

827
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 4: the likes of Picasso and Matisse, because when Paris was invaded,

828
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 4: she took all of their artwork and saved it because

829
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 4: she was their friends. She cultivated all of these men's careers.

830
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 4: But in the course of all of this, Gertrude Stein

831
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 4: lived with her wife Alice. You know, you couldn't be

832
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 4: married at the time, but she was very proudly living

833
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 4: a lesbian relationship on the banks of Paris with her

834
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: wife Alice. And she also wasn't quiet about queer sex

835
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 4: and lesbian enjoyments. She would write poetry all about kinna

836
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 4: lingis and would hide all of these descriptions of the

837
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 4: female body and female pleasure in high art that men

838
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 4: who didn't understand it would like sit around the dinner

839
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 4: table reading it all loud and not realizing they were

840
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 4: actually reading out poems of gays X. And she's just

841
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 4: this incredible figure who really kind of demonstrates that if

842
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 4: you're confident enough and you can kind of get away

843
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 4: with everything, like this woman is just living openly at

844
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 4: a time where you are not allowed to live with

845
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 4: another woman, was saying very proudly that is her wife

846
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 4: writing poems and books about her affairs with other women

847
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 4: about kind of lingers. And you know, she's also a

848
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 4: Jewish woman who lives on the banks of Paris that

849
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 4: is going to be invaded by the Nazis and stays

850
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 4: there and protects people on all sides of this war

851
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 4: just because she feels like it's the right thing to do.

852
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 4: She's an incredible figure. She's an incredible figure, and she

853
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 4: is definitely your sex positive icon that everyone should go

854
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 4: and look up.

855
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm googling.

856
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: Immediately after this podcast, the name's familiar, but I didn't

857
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 3: know that about her. Oh, Esme and Susie, thank you

858
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 3: so much for your time. I feel like we could

859
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 3: talk for a lot longer, but for right now, everyone

860
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 3: can go get their book Kinky History, A rollicking Journey.

861
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: God, I love that.

862
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 3: Word, rollicking journey through our sexual past, present and future.

863
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your time in the bathroom.

864
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 5: Thank you for having as girlie. Bathrooms are always the best.

865
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 3: Good right, Well, that's just blown my mind. I have

866
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 3: to say that chat with es May and Susie.

867
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

868
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: As I said, I know we could have gone on

869
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 3: and on. We'd love to get them back in actually,

870
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 3: because I think they have a lot more to share

871
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 3: about kinky history. And hopefully that's got you thinking about

872
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: your own sexual history and why don't you just go

873
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 3: and have a bit more play. I think that's the message.

874
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening.

875
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 4: Bye,