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Speaker 1: Now the auditor is having a look at a contract

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Speaker 1: that the state government has with a company called Ventia,

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Speaker 1: who are also involved in building the South Road tunnels.

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Speaker 1: But this contract was signed in the last few years

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Speaker 1: under the Marshall government I understand, and it has this

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Speaker 1: company looking after we outsource the maintenance of buildings, schools, hospitals,

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Speaker 1: office blocks. The Order to General is concerned the company

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Speaker 1: is allowing contractors to overcharge that repairs have been taking

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Speaker 1: forever and they could be potentially, according to the Order

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Speaker 1: to General, a cybersecurity threat now in one case, and

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Speaker 1: these are in these acclaims printed up in the Advertiser

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Speaker 1: this morning. One instance, a school in the state's southeast

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Speaker 1: quoted sixty five thousand dollars to build a fence at

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Speaker 1: a local contractor estimated would cost two thousand dollars. The

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Speaker 1: Ties of reports This contract overseen by the Department of

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Speaker 1: Transport that infrastructure. The Minister is Tom Cootsontonis and he

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Speaker 1: joins me now, Minister.

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Speaker 2: Good Mining, Matthew, how are you all right?

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for taking the time to have a

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Speaker 1: chat about this. Obviously very concerning the Order to General

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Speaker 1: onto it. How did this contract come to be about.

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Speaker 2: The previous government outsourced the maintenance contract to a private

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Speaker 2: operator bent Here. You might remember on five Double A

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Speaker 2: and other radio programs people spore contractors were calling in

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Speaker 2: saying this was a mistake by the previous government. They

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Speaker 2: plowed ahead anyway and did it and in exchange for

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Speaker 2: outsourcing this four and a half billion dollar contract over

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Speaker 2: a decade, there are a lot of provisions in this

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Speaker 2: contract that favor bent Here rather than the South Australian

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Speaker 2: government and the people who use it like these principles,

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Speaker 2: these principles who've got limited money to do infrastructure work

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Speaker 2: are incentivized to get the lowest possible price because the

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Speaker 2: more money they the more money they can use. They

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Speaker 2: can make it go further on other projects. Because before

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Speaker 2: the government put in a contract that all these infrastructure

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Speaker 2: works and repairs and maintenance must go to vent Here.

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Speaker 2: Vent Here are the ones who do the tendering and

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Speaker 2: the contracting. So you've got this these hopeless scenarios where

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Speaker 2: in a regional community you might have a local defense

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Speaker 2: contractor his children go to the local public school, will

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Speaker 2: say hey, I can do this for you know, half

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Speaker 2: the price, because you know, if my kids school and

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Speaker 2: I want to do a good job, or a local

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Speaker 2: contractor has got lower overheads for someone coming out from

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Speaker 2: Adelaide to do the work. Are missing out on contracts

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Speaker 2: because the previous government locked a sense of this contract

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Speaker 2: with penalties that vent Here must conduct all the contracted

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Speaker 2: So basically what they've done is they put a middle

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Speaker 2: mare in between the government and the schools to deliver

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Speaker 2: these projects, and the middleman is bent Here. Now. Bent

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Speaker 2: Here are a good company, they do good work in

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Speaker 2: other areas, but here they've got a contract that is

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Speaker 2: so much in their favor that it's left the taxpayer

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Speaker 2: really and the penalties that are in place for me

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Speaker 2: to try and break it are horrific.

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Speaker 1: Worse than breaking the train contract, almost almost as bad.

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Speaker 1: So we managed to get out of that one. Trains

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Speaker 1: are coming back well first of January, January in.

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Speaker 2: July for trans The difference there is is we were

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Speaker 2: able to write to everyone who was bidding for the trains,

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Speaker 2: and Trends are saying, by beware, if the Labor Party

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Speaker 2: is elected, we will use the parliament to undo this

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Speaker 2: contract right now, because why.

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Speaker 1: Can't you do that now?

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Speaker 2: Because the previous government out late in twenty twenty one

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Speaker 2: and by the time we were able to get an

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Speaker 2: understanding of the contract details, it was science filled living

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Speaker 2: we're in the election campaign. We weren't able to make

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Speaker 2: commitment before the election. If we break the contract now,

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Speaker 2: the social license risk and the investment risks of the

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Speaker 2: state would be great. And if we break it traditionally

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Speaker 2: using the contract, the penalties make it disadvantageous to the

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Speaker 2: government and the people to break it. So basically this

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Speaker 2: contract has been signed up by the previous government in

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Speaker 2: a locked stage which makes it impossible for us to

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Speaker 2: break financially.

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Speaker 1: Just hold on there because Ben Hood has called in

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Speaker 1: and you might need to respond. Ben Hood, Good morning.

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Speaker 3: Mist Yeah, your point, well, look the minister, I guess

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Speaker 3: has slightly changed saying from ABC this morning wanting to

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Speaker 3: blame the former government on this.

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Speaker 4: At the end of the day, his government has been

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Speaker 4: power for nearly three years now, and what the Order

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Speaker 4: to General is finding is that there are gaps in

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Speaker 4: his department's risk management process. His department have not performed

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Speaker 4: any formal order or assurance work over the user access

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Speaker 4: to the facilities management software. His department have not verified

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Speaker 4: the KPIs as reported in twenty three twenty four. What

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Speaker 4: the Order to General's report is saying is that the

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Speaker 4: Minister and his department aren't actually doing the work they

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Speaker 4: need to do to ensure that Ventier is holding up

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Speaker 4: their end of this contract. He talked so found that

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Speaker 4: Venti is not complying with procurement policies or that data

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Speaker 4: is not flying through to the Department of Transport's data

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Speaker 4: warehouse as required by the contract. Again, what the Order

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Speaker 4: to General is finding is that the Minister and his

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Speaker 4: department aren't actually doing what they need to be doing

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Speaker 4: the holding Ventire to account.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 4: He can blame the former government all he wants, but

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Speaker 4: the fact of the matter is he has been His

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Speaker 4: government has been power for nearly three years now. It

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Speaker 4: is their contract. They need to make sure that Dentier

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Speaker 4: are doing what they should be doing. The Department Transport

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Speaker 4: is the contract manager. They need to ensure compliance by

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Speaker 4: a venture and they need to manage the risk.

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Speaker 1: You may not have been in Parliament when this deal

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Speaker 1: was done. You weren't part of the previous government because

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Speaker 1: you weren't in parliament. But is this a good contract?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it.

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Speaker 4: Look, Matthew, I'm hearing the same stories that we've seen

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Speaker 4: reported in the Advertiser. And no, this isn't good enough.

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Speaker 4: It's simply isn't good enough that schools in our Gambia

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Speaker 4: are having to be charged ridiculous amounts of money for

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Speaker 4: offense or for cleaning gutters. Those principles are talking to

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Speaker 4: me just like they're talking to independent members.

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Speaker 1: So would you be critical of the previous minister then

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Speaker 1: the liberal minister that signed off on this.

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Speaker 4: Look, I don't know the exact details of this contract,

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Speaker 4: but what we are talking about here is the fact

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Speaker 4: of the matter that the Order of General is saying

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Speaker 4: that at this present time this government isn't actually doing

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Speaker 4: what they need to do to ensure that the contract

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Speaker 4: is being abided by and ventor are doing what they

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Speaker 4: should be doing. Irrespective of whether this contract is to

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Speaker 4: a dog's breakfast, I think is maybe the minister will

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Speaker 4: use that term. The Order General has found that the

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Speaker 4: simply there's controls, there's audits that you aren't doing that

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Speaker 4: they need to be doing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me put that to Tom Kodson thanas and

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Speaker 1: thank you for the call, minister. Can you be doing more?

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Speaker 1: Should you be doing more? So?

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Speaker 2: What the Orders of generally found was is that we're

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Speaker 2: unable to do the audit to have the financial controls

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Speaker 2: because of the way the contract's been drafted. So you know,

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Speaker 2: Ben's half accurate. So yeah, there are criticisms about the

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Speaker 2: way the contract is being managed because the contract doesn't

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Speaker 2: allow us and give us the ability to go in

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Speaker 2: and do these checks because we have to rely on

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Speaker 2: what Ventire tell us. So this is this is how

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Speaker 2: the great thing about being in our position you can

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Speaker 2: take a little bit of truth and take it for

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Speaker 2: a long, long drive.

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Speaker 1: You then can't you rely on what ventor you are

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Speaker 1: telling you? Then that's what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: What I'm saying, Yeah, what I'm saying is is that

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Speaker 2: eventually telling us of gettingus the lowest cost options. Yet

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Speaker 2: here we are finding examples of written quotes from contractors

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Speaker 2: saying venture telling us is going to cost two hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand or two hundred thousand six extents, and then and

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Speaker 2: then we're getting quotes of one hundred thousands.

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Speaker 1: So isn't that a breach of contract? Then isn't that

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Speaker 1: enough to say hang on that, you know, you're.

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Speaker 2: The normal contract in any normal contract. Actually, yes, By

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Speaker 2: the way this contract is drafted.

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Speaker 1: No, well, surely that's a way out if they're not

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Speaker 1: giving you the correct impomise.

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Speaker 2: I've had Crown Law and I've had independent lawyers go

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Speaker 2: over this to try and find ways for us to

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Speaker 2: have better access and better penalties in place. But it

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Speaker 2: is one of the worst contracts ever drafted that any

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Speaker 2: government has ever signed. Quite frankly, I am very angry

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Speaker 2: about this, but there is little I can do, and

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Speaker 2: I am just as frustrated as all the cavalcade listeners

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Speaker 2: you're going to have afterwards calling in about that. People

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Speaker 2: I feel sorry about the most are the small contractors

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Speaker 2: and electricians who are being asked to do the same

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Speaker 2: work they were doing three years ago on the same

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Speaker 2: score they were working on three years ago on products

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Speaker 2: that they've put in, getting paid less for the same

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Speaker 2: work that they were doing, while a margin is going

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Speaker 2: to vent here because of a contract signed by a

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Speaker 2: previous government. And that is the most outrageous part of

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Speaker 2: this contract. And you're right, it's not Ben's fault because

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Speaker 2: Ben wasn't in Parliament. But Ben should have the foresight

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Speaker 2: and good sense to say this is a bad deal

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Speaker 2: and we shouldn't have done it. I can't bring themselves

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Speaker 2: to say it.

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Speaker 1: All right. You know, if you were a call, I'd

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Speaker 1: be referring you to consumer affairs. I'm sure you've thought

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 2: That'd be a great idea, yeah, wouldn't it?

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Speaker 1: All right, So what's the answer here there? You've just

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Speaker 1: got to hold them to it. And meantime, this is

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Speaker 1: part of the consortium that's helping out with the South

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Speaker 1: Road tunnels building that. Do you trust them to do that?

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Speaker 2: Well? The different contract, the contract we've got in place

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Speaker 2: here is much more tighter. I mean, vent you're a

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Speaker 2: good company, is get this straight? Bent? Here are looking

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Speaker 2: after their shareholders. I mean, this is this is why

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Speaker 2: privatization doesn't work. When you outsource services to a private company.

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Speaker 2: They're not working on our schools because they want our

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Speaker 2: kids to get a great education. They're working on our

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Speaker 2: schools because I want to get a return for their shareholders.

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Speaker 2: They're working on our interestructs. They get it, they make

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Speaker 2: a profit. And when you add a middleman between the

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Speaker 2: contractor and the government, there's a margin you're handing over.

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Speaker 2: So it's inherently going to be more expensive. And we

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Speaker 2: argued long and hard against doing this outsourcing. But of

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Speaker 2: course we're made all the promises by the previous governments

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Speaker 2: this would save money, and of course it has. It's

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Speaker 2: not costing us more.

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Speaker 1: It's unreal. So how long has this got to run?

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Speaker 2: Another seven years?

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Speaker 1: And there's nothing you can do in terms of putting

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Speaker 1: in someone to oversee the quotes, to approve the quotes.

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Speaker 2: All of that we are doing. We are doing that.

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Speaker 2: But again we've got are all these good faith clauses

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Speaker 2: put into the contract, which means that we have to

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Speaker 2: be able to show that their intent, not the outcome,

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Speaker 2: was unfair, that they intentionally attempted to get a higher contract.

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Speaker 2: And the burden of proof on us is so much

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Speaker 2: higher than it is in every other contract government went

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Speaker 2: automatically sign so to maximize the value to the former

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Speaker 2: Liberal party's budgets, they have given away a lot of

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Speaker 2: state rights that we would not give away in any contract.

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Speaker 1: There's no punishment clauses in this contract where if they're

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Speaker 1: found to be in breach in any way, you know,

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Speaker 1: misleading you as you suggested earlier, or overcharging inevitably or otherwise.

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Speaker 2: There are provisions in place. The burden of proof to

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Speaker 2: get there is so high it's almost impossible.

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Speaker 1: So taxpayers are going to copy it. We're paying more

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Speaker 1: than ten Well.

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Speaker 2: What we can do. What we can do is what

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Speaker 2: we've done is trying to get better management over the

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Speaker 2: top of this, try and make sure that it works.

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Speaker 2: Now vent here to their credit, want to make it

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Speaker 2: work because they are very, very concerned about obviously the

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Speaker 2: negative publisher they're getting today what our statement about their

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Speaker 2: intent to work with us, which is good, But the

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Speaker 2: truth is, are we getting value for money here?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: And I'm sorry about it. You got to go. No.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, from a taxpayer's point of view,

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Speaker 1: it is our money being wasted. At the moment, it

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Speaker 1: seems to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, the Order to General seems to think there's a

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Speaker 2: risk of it. And I don't think money has been

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Speaker 2: wasted yet because we've caught these we've caught these anomalies early.

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Speaker 2: But it is a risk. And the question is what

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Speaker 2: is the stuff that's happening in the contract that we

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Speaker 2: can't see? And that is my concern.

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Speaker 1: All right, No doubt the Department will be onto this.

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Speaker 1: The Order to General certainly is, and hopefully this resolves

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Speaker 1: in the taxpayer's favor, our favor as people who give

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Speaker 1: you the government our hard earned that we save as

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Speaker 1: much of that as possible in getting some of this

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Speaker 1: work done. Absolutely, thank you for your time. Tom Kutsontona's

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Speaker 1: Transport minister, his department dealing with Ventire, this company which

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Speaker 1: the Order to General has found, and you can read

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Speaker 1: the report in the Tizer today. This is one of

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Speaker 1: the most appalling cases. I think they quote a sixty

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Speaker 1: five thousand dollar fence. A local contractor says he could

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Speaker 1: do it for two thousand at a school, so sixty

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Speaker 1: five for two. Another one to clean gutters, local contractor

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Speaker 1: charged five hundred. Ventire contractor just adds a zero to

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Speaker 1: that and the cost goes up to five thousand. And

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Speaker 1: the Order to General finding those and other cases as well,

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Speaker 1: and you know that is our money being spent, not

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Speaker 1: wisely to say the least, but it does smack of

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Speaker 1: the ndis ahed care package roughts where providers of goods

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Speaker 1: and equipment. I heard callers this morning with David and

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Speaker 1: Will and loads of texts on it, just saying how

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Speaker 1: it's blatantly ripping off government is grounds for terminating the contract. Well,

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Speaker 1: Bill who sent that one in put that to the men.

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Speaker 1: Apparently not the way the contract works, so I'm sure

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Speaker 1: they would like to do that. You get that feeling,

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Speaker 1: don't you In this case, the government wanting to stop

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Speaker 1: the roughts from continuing. In this regard, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: just outrageous. The contractors, bless them, They do a good

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Speaker 1: job when they come around to your house and do

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Speaker 1: their thing, and most are very good, and most charge fairly.

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Speaker 1: But see it's a government and the dollar signs light

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Speaker 1: up in their eyes and just make an exorbitant claim

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Speaker 1: on doing a basic job. Unreal