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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: we have a bonus episode for you. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the Mushroom murder case. This is a case

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Speaker 1: that has captured the attention of the whole world. A

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Speaker 1: supposedly average middle aged lady called Aaron Patterson invited her

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Speaker 1: former husband parents, Gail and Donald Patterson, and Gail's sister

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Speaker 1: Heather and her husband, Iern Wilkinson over for lunch. Three

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Speaker 1: of those guests, Gail, Donald, and Heather died. Ian Wilkinson

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Speaker 1: was the only victim who survived after being served a

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Speaker 1: fatal mushroom lunch. Now this was not an accident. This

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Speaker 1: was cold blooded murder, as the Victorian Supreme Court ruled

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Speaker 1: this week when Aaron was convicted of murdering her guests

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Speaker 1: and the attempted murder of Iran Wilkinson, we thought we

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Speaker 1: might have a closer look at this case. So I've

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Speaker 1: invited my good friend and a previous guest on I

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers, criminologist Xanti Mallett, who has been following this

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Speaker 1: case closely, to talk all about the case. When they

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Speaker 1: talk about the crime, what happened, how the investigation played out,

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Speaker 1: the facts that came out in the trial, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to try to get an understanding of who Aaron

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Speaker 1: Patterson is and why she would commit such a horrendous crime.

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Speaker 1: But before we do, when discussing cases like this, we

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Speaker 1: need to understand that three innocent people had their lives

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Speaker 1: taken and their loved ones will carry this for the

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Speaker 1: rest of their lives. Murder has a ripple effect. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't just impact on those who lost their lives, but

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Speaker 1: also those who love them. I think it's important with

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Speaker 1: all the fascination about this case, when we talk about it,

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Speaker 1: we should not lose sight of the tragedy of what

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Speaker 1: has happened here. Zanthon Mallett, Welcome to our Catch Killers. Hello,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming on. I know you're a busy person.

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Speaker 2: Well been a busy week, it has, but always a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Well, last time we caught up, I think we went

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Speaker 1: out for a night which turned into it started off

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Speaker 1: as dinner and then ended into drinks after dinner, and

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Speaker 1: I blamed Tim Watson Monroe.

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Speaker 2: I always blamed him for everything. He's a troublemaker, that man.

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Speaker 1: He's a bad human being. And it was you, me,

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Speaker 1: Duncan McNabb and we were the innocent ones.

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Speaker 2: And Tim Duncan mcm is also a bad influence.

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Speaker 1: Encourage us to have a drink. But it was good

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Speaker 1: fun as usual, So yeah, thanks for coming on. I've

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Speaker 1: talked about upfront before you came on, about the impact

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Speaker 1: of murder, and yeah, this case and that's captured so

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Speaker 1: many people's attention. But what sometimes lost on this is

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Speaker 1: that three lives have been lost and all the people

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Speaker 1: around them, how many lives have been impacted upon. But

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Speaker 1: before we go on, I do owe you an apology

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Speaker 1: because on the Kathleen Folbeck.

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Speaker 2: Matter, Oh oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Here it comes. I said apology. I didn't say I

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Speaker 1: was wrong. Say softly so people aren't listening. But look,

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Speaker 1: that was another horrendous situation. But you always maintained and

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Speaker 1: we had some very debate debates. That's a nice way

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Speaker 1: of putting it about the guilt or innocence, and you

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Speaker 1: always maintain that she should be acquitted by the court

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Speaker 1: based on the evidence. And I've got to say, you

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Speaker 1: were proven to be right. So yeah, so did you.

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Speaker 2: Say you were going to apologize?

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Speaker 1: Did you say that was an apology?

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Speaker 2: So? Was it? Okay?

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 2: Loosely? All right, Okay, I accept that you were wrong.

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Speaker 1: I I can't say the word. But now it was

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Speaker 1: an interesting take on it. And that's the high stakes

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Speaker 1: of the court system and investigating, yes, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're kind of making light of that because we

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Speaker 2: did have that bet, and I told you owed me

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Speaker 2: a whole creative beer when I was found to be correct,

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Speaker 2: and so I'll hold you to that. But at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, that's another woman's life who's been

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Speaker 2: irrevocably changed. You know, she lost twenty years of her

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Speaker 2: life as a result of her error, and so, you know,

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Speaker 2: we kind of joked about it, but it's actually really

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Speaker 2: deadly serious when things go wrong with the court system.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most definitely. Now, for you've been on the guests

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Speaker 1: being on as a guest previously on I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: But for people that don't know you, I describe you

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Speaker 1: as a forensic anthropologist, criminologist, academic television presenter, successful author

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Speaker 1: and host of Motive and Method podcast, and someone who

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Speaker 1: has a deep understanding and fascination and expertise in all

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Speaker 1: things crime. Have I missed anything?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think I do all of

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Speaker 2: those things. I'm not sure I do all of those

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Speaker 2: things really well, but okay, yes, yeah, I do double

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Speaker 2: in all of those Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Because you have been involved in crime in various

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Speaker 1: various ways, looking at crime and dissecting crime for a

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Speaker 1: long time. So I thought I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: the ushroom murder case because it's captured the fascination of

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Speaker 1: so many people, not just in this country, it looks

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Speaker 1: like worldwide. Yep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've done did a podcast the UK, I've done

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Speaker 2: interviews the UK, France, other places in Europe I can't

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Speaker 2: even remember. Yes, it's everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what what is it about this case that's fascinated people?

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Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on that?

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Speaker 2: I think there are a number of things. I think. Firstly,

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Speaker 2: it's Aaron Patterson itself. Like you probably remember those first interviews.

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Speaker 2: You look at Aaron Patterson, and she's so normal, right,

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Speaker 2: She's so average. You know, she's a fifty year old woman.

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Speaker 2: She could be anyone you pass in the shops. You're

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Speaker 2: not going to look twice at her, because she's just

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Speaker 2: so pedestrian, so average. And I think that kind of

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Speaker 2: including where it happened. It happened in this really cute

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Speaker 2: little town that nobody actually heard of either. That's you

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Speaker 2: in this wine country and it's known for the cheese

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Speaker 2: and the beauty. And then you have these three deaths,

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Speaker 2: these three awful deaths. You know, we're not these I

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Speaker 2: think a poison is a particularly brutal and cruel way

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Speaker 2: to kill someone because it takes so long, you're talking

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Speaker 2: five days, six days. It's horrendous. And so you look

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Speaker 2: at the situation and you look at the accused and

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Speaker 2: what happened, and the two things just don't go together,

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Speaker 2: you go, how could that woman be responsible for this?

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Speaker 2: And nobody have any idea that there was anything going

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Speaker 2: on in the background.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all I have just noticed, like so many people

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Speaker 1: have an opinion on that right from right from the start.

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Speaker 1: Do you think she's done it? And there seems to

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Speaker 1: be a divided There was divided opinion. That wasn't one

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Speaker 1: way or the other. People were fascinated by it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well it all came down to intent, didn't it?

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Speaker 2: You know, did she do it on purpose? Clearly she

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Speaker 2: made the meal that led to the deaths, and it

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Speaker 2: hinged on intent. And how do you actually prove intent?

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Speaker 2: That was always what was going to be the challenge

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Speaker 2: for the crown because the only person who knows why

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Speaker 2: she did what she did is Aaron Patterson. So unless

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Speaker 2: you can climb inside her head, you can't prove it.

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Speaker 2: So I think that was people just find it inexplicable.

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Speaker 2: Why would she do it? And if you haven't got

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Speaker 2: a good reason, it's like, well she's got no reason

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Speaker 2: for doing it, so therefore did it happen?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? No motive? And was it tragedy?

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Speaker 2: Always a problem?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it a tragic? Excellent? Just break it down and

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Speaker 1: describe the crime to people, just a summary summary of

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Speaker 1: what happened if you could, Yes.

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Speaker 2: Sure so. Almost exactly two years ago, Aaron Patterson invited

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Speaker 2: her family, which included her estranged husband they're not divorced,

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Speaker 2: Simon estranged husband, his parents, and his aunt and uncle

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Speaker 2: for a family lunch. She claimed to have cancer and

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Speaker 2: she wanted to get the whole family together as this

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Speaker 2: meal because she was supposedly deeply unwell. So Simon didn't go.

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Speaker 2: He said he felt uncomfortable, so he elected not to

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Speaker 2: go to that lunch, but the other four did. She

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Speaker 2: cooked that beef Wellington that now fame was beef Wellington,

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Speaker 2: and subsequently three of the four guests died and Ian

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Speaker 2: Wilkinson was very lucky to survive. I think he was

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Speaker 2: in hospital for around seven weeks and eventually when he

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Speaker 2: came out of his coma after a few days, woke

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Speaker 2: to find that his wife was deceased, which must have

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Speaker 2: been heartbreaking. And as the investigation unfolded, there were questions

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Speaker 2: as to what was in the lunch. You know, it

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Speaker 2: appeared to be the mushrooms. Originally Aaron Patterson claimed that

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Speaker 2: they'd been brought from a Chinese supermarket, but couldn't couldn't

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Speaker 2: give a location. Then she eventually said that she had

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Speaker 2: been foraging and deathcat mushrooms were identified as the toxin.

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Speaker 2: She had a dehydrator that she had got rid off

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Speaker 2: very quickly after the event. And also one of the

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Speaker 2: things I thought was interesting that came out at trial,

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Speaker 2: she also had a couple of mobile phones. And I'd

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Speaker 2: be interested in your take on this. This fifty year

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Speaker 2: old woman has two mobile phones moving this in cards

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Speaker 2: around and she did a number of factory resets on

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Speaker 2: those phones in the days after this event happened, and

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Speaker 2: she also did one of those by distance when the

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Speaker 2: police had actually taken that phone. That was pretty cool, yeah, right,

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Speaker 2: and not normal, not normal for a fifty year old

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Speaker 2: woman to have, you know, these phones that she does

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Speaker 2: these resets on. Anyway, Subsequently, it took five days for

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Speaker 2: two of the victims ste and six days for the

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Speaker 2: third victim to die, and then obviously the investigation unfolded

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Speaker 2: from there. I think homicide were involved after a couple

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Speaker 2: of days, even before people were dying. Aeron Patterson herself

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Speaker 2: claimed to have been slightly and well. She did go

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Speaker 2: to hospital very briefly, but discharged herself against medical advice,

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Speaker 2: and there was no evidence she was actually onwell at

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Speaker 2: that stage. So that's basically, in a nutshell what happened.

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Speaker 2: And obviously two years later she has been found guilty

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Speaker 2: of the three murders and attempted murder and she is

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Speaker 2: now going to spend in essence for the rest of

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Speaker 2: her life in prison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd say that's a likely likely scenario looking at

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Speaker 1: the police investigation, because I'm obviously interested in the way

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Speaker 1: it would be approached. When it was first report, that

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Speaker 1: was a doctor that drew the attention to the police

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Speaker 1: and said, okay, it's for someone to come into a

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Speaker 1: hospital one person, but when you got three people, there's

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Speaker 1: a suspicion attached. So that's when police first became involved.

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Speaker 1: When the doctors made calls.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was the doctor my understanding, it was the

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Speaker 2: doctor that had treated Aaron Patterson. So she attended hospital

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Speaker 2: saying she was unwell, but they couldn't find any physical signs,

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Speaker 2: you know, she seemed perfectly healthy. All her ops were normal,

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Speaker 2: So she wanted to discharge herself immediately, and that the

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Speaker 2: doctor was suspicious by her behavior that was treating her,

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Speaker 2: so she did discharge herself, and he called the police saying,

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Speaker 2: you know this is unusual. Her behavior were suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, appropriate too. You wouldn't want this one slipping through.

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Speaker 1: So okay, you've got a situation like that. So I'm

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Speaker 1: imagining when the police turn up, they'd get all the

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Speaker 1: details of what took place. You've got five people at

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Speaker 1: the lunch, four of them are critically ill, and that

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Speaker 1: the person that prepared the meal is not showing signs

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Speaker 1: of the poisoning that the other victims went through. I think,

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Speaker 1: and I've heard it said that the fact that the

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Speaker 1: Ian Wilkinson didn't die is sort of a floor in

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Speaker 1: her planning of the murders.

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Speaker 2: Well, I certainly think he was very influential. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we can't say what influenced the jury because we can

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Speaker 2: never ask them in Australia, right, but from his evidence

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Speaker 2: he was very compelling. I thought he did very well

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Speaker 2: given imagine the pressure he was under in court, the

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Speaker 2: situation he was having to recall. So he did almost die.

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Speaker 2: He was very lucky to survive. But he could give

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Speaker 2: evidence of the different color plates that we used at

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Speaker 2: that lunch, and that became quite crucial. So he said

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Speaker 2: that she served three, sorry, four portions. They were each

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Speaker 2: individual portions of beef Wellington on the same color plates,

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Speaker 2: and there was one that was different, and that was

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Speaker 2: the one that Aaron patinated. So you could extrapolate from

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Speaker 2: that that she wanted to be able to clearly identify

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Speaker 2: hers against all the others. Now, she said that she

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Speaker 2: just doesn't have enough of the same color plates, which

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's possible, right. It really depends on the person.

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Speaker 2: Because when I heard that, I was thinking, I break

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Speaker 2: plates all the time. And I realized last weekend I

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Speaker 2: had some guests over and I didn't have enough plates.

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Speaker 2: I had to use a picnic plate because I didn't

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Speaker 2: have enough plates. And I was like, well, that's embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: Those people are fine, and well, yes, and I just

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Speaker 2: actually everyone just sat down where they chose at dinner.

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Speaker 2: I didn't actually choose the seating. No, I just didn't

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Speaker 2: have enough flates because I break them all the time.

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Speaker 2: It won't shock you to know that I'm clumsy, but

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Speaker 2: I did. I thought about that then because I was like,

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Speaker 2: I have to use a picnic plate. That's embarrassing. But

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Speaker 2: I thought of that situation. But I can see why

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Speaker 2: Ian noticed that you know, and it does seem unusual

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Speaker 2: that she had this different color plate and she allocated

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Speaker 2: who Ape was.

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Speaker 1: And maybe at the time it didn't stand there. But

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Speaker 1: if in the situation the way I'd played out the

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Speaker 1: mb looking back there and go okay, that's interesting, Well, I.

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Speaker 2: Think it depends. I mean, me not having that in

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Speaker 2: plates doesn't matter to me. I'm not that kind of person.

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Speaker 2: But for some people would have found that embarrassing and

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Speaker 2: it would have been unusual for them, And so I

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Speaker 2: think it depends on Aaron Patterson. But also my understanding

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Speaker 2: is and I think it was Heather, but somebody may

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Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong. But Heather also mentioned when

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Speaker 2: she was first taken in the ambulance that the plates

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Speaker 2: were different colors.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Now, if that's something when you're unwell in an ambulance

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Speaker 2: and that's something you feel the need to share, obviously

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Speaker 2: it's something that stood out to you.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Now, from a policing point of view, the crucial

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Speaker 1: part on that would be the toxicology examinations of what

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Speaker 1: cause the illness and subsequent depths. But also you'd be

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Speaker 1: looking at getting a version like who prepared the meal,

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Speaker 1: who served the meal and getting the version from that person.

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Speaker 1: Do you know any details about what the version that

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Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson provide the police first up?

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Speaker 2: Now, my understanding is that she basically served that meal

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Speaker 2: and she didn't have any assistance with that, and I

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Speaker 2: think he and Wilkinson confirmed that. I'd have to I'm

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Speaker 2: digging into my memory, but I think people offered to

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Speaker 2: a sister, but she insisted on doing all herself. So

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Speaker 2: she made the meal, she purchased the ingredients. No one

285
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Speaker 2: else had a hand in it was. What was also

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Speaker 2: interesting about the meal though the two there were two

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Speaker 2: Patterson children, oh who we can't discuss in any more

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Speaker 2: detail than that, except to say that they weren't at

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Speaker 2: the meal. They were off at the movies, right, So

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Speaker 2: they did not eat the meal. However, Erin did give

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Speaker 2: them the leftovers, but she'd scrape the mushrooms off. She

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Speaker 2: said the children didn't like mushrooms. What's interesting is the

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Speaker 2: medigs were telling her to get the children checked out,

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Speaker 2: and she didn't because she wasn't concerned about them because

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Speaker 2: she'd remove the mushrooms. Now, how did she know that

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Speaker 2: it was the mushrooms of all that were the problem

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Speaker 2: with the meal? You would get them checked, wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: You got most definitely?

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Speaker 2: Is there any reason you can think of that you

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Speaker 2: would not at least get them checked via medical professionally.

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Speaker 1: See the type of thing we're talking about here, and

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Speaker 1: the type of things that you're raising, they're the red

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Speaker 1: flags from an investigator's point of view, They're the things

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Speaker 1: that you'd be looking at. Okay, this is a little

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Speaker 1: bit unusual. If Aaron got sick as well, it would

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Speaker 1: change the way that you'd focus on the investigation. But

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Speaker 1: all these things are sort of adding up, these little

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Speaker 1: things that would certainly put the put the suspicion right

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Speaker 1: on her. Having said that, there's still a lot of

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Speaker 1: work to do to prove this case. I looked at

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Speaker 1: it from the start, and I formed my own own

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Speaker 1: opinion right from the start when snippets of information were

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Speaker 1: coming out. But it's one thing to have an opinion,

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Speaker 1: it's another thing to prove the case. Do you think

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Speaker 1: this was a difficult case to investigate and prove?

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Speaker 2: I do, because it goes back to that intent, you know,

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Speaker 2: we had the crown had to demonstrate intent, and that's

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Speaker 2: always going to be a challenging I remember when she

319
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Speaker 2: was arrested. It was about three months post the event,

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Speaker 2: and people were saying, especially in the media, art it's

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Speaker 2: taken so long to arrest her, And I was like,

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Speaker 2: when I was doing interviews about it, I was like

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Speaker 2: three months and a multiple death investigation is not a

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Speaker 2: long time. They had to collect the CCTV. They were

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Speaker 2: looking for electronic equipment at her house that they needed

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Speaker 2: to get analyzed. They had the dehydrator which she dumped

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Speaker 2: around four days after the lunch for which there's CCTV

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Speaker 2: evidence of her doing, so that's you know, this was

329
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 2: not well planned. But they needed to send that abroad

330
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Speaker 2: to see whether they were deathcap mushroom spores in that desicator,

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Speaker 2: so that wasn't an expertise we had in Australia. So

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Speaker 2: all of this had to be gathered before they could

333
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Speaker 2: arrest her. They had to obviously develop the brief of evidence.

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Speaker 2: So three months was not a long time before arresting her.

335
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Speaker 2: But I think it would have been very difficult because, Okay,

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Speaker 2: they may have had evidence that she had been foraging,

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Speaker 2: for example, but proving that she intentionally chose death cap

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Speaker 2: mushrooms and intentionally put them in that meal, there's a

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Speaker 2: leap there that they had to fill in those gaps

340
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Speaker 2: for the jury to.

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Speaker 1: Be able to approve that. I suppose from a starting point,

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00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,719
Speaker 1: you haven't got multiple suspects in this. You're looking at

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Speaker 1: the obvious suspect is a person that prepared the meal,

344
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Speaker 1: served the meal, and the one person that wasn't impacted

345
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Speaker 1: from the meal, even though that she was sitting down

346
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Speaker 1: at the dinner table. What were the circumstances in why

347
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Speaker 1: the people were there, Like, she wasn't divorced from her husband,

348
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Speaker 1: but they're separated. Yeah, I'm all for keeping families friendly

349
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Speaker 1: after separation, but what was the basis of these people

350
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Speaker 1: being invited for lunch?

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Speaker 2: Well, she was apparently quite close to her in laws

352
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Speaker 2: and Simon's family. You know, they've been married a long time.

353
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Speaker 2: She was obviously the mother of their grandchildren, et cetera.

354
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Speaker 2: And things have got a little like crimonious, and there'd

355
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Speaker 2: been a distance between them that she is mentioned and

356
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Speaker 2: there are some text messages that were released in and

357
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,440
Speaker 2: she said that she invited them around because she was

358
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 2: trying to kind of, you know, regenerate that relationship. And

359
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 2: also she claimed to have cancer and so she was

360
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,120
Speaker 2: kind of playing on the sympathies. I guess these are

361
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 2: really kind, lovely people, you know, and they went around

362
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,920
Speaker 2: there to support her, and she knew that she would

363
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 2: be able to manipulate them into coming around by telling

364
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 2: them a sob story.

365
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 1: Was that pulled out to them? First?

366
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Speaker 2: Up?

367
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 1: Did she announce that she's suffering then illness or yes?

368
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she told them, and that's why she wanted

369
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Speaker 2: to come around, because I think she said something like

370
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 2: this maybe the last time we're all together.

371
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Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's a hard invite to to.

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Speaker 2: How do you say, no, oh, no, okay, you've got cancer. No,

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Speaker 2: we're not going to come to lunch. You know.

374
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Speaker 1: I suppose the other thing about this investigation too, like

375
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Speaker 1: there's one thing to serve something that you know is

376
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Speaker 1: going to make people sick. But to prove murder, you've

377
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 1: got to prove the intended murder or a total reckless indifference.

378
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: So did she know about the effect of death cap mushrooms?

379
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 2: Well, now that is a good question. It would be

380
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,440
Speaker 2: difficult to prove that she knew about death cap mushrooms

381
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 2: right specifically, but there was evidence that she knew where

382
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 2: they were available in the area. So there are websites

383
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 2: where you know, people go foraging and people with an

384
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 2: interest in fungi will say what they've found, so either

385
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 2: people can go and look at it if it's particularly unusual,

386
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 2: or in fact avoid it. So there are a couple

387
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 2: of people who had seen death cap mushrooms growing and

388
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,679
Speaker 2: had put them on these websites to warn people not

389
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 2: to forage in that area because death cups look very normal,

390
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 2: which is another part of this. Everything looks normal, right,

391
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 2: She looks normal, the lunch looks normal. Death caps look harmless.

392
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,120
Speaker 2: So everyone's like, don't go and forage there because there

393
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 2: are death caps there. Now there's evidence that she actually

394
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 2: knew specifically where these death caps were, and so whether

395
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,439
Speaker 2: we can prove that she knew the toxicity is a

396
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 2: different question. But I mean, death caps are highly toxic.

397
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 2: People die every year from mushroom toxicity. There's four different

398
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: topsins in it. It's really very brutal. You only need

399
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,639
Speaker 2: a very small amount to cause death depending on the

400
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: person you know, health size, etc. All of that. But yeah,

401
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 2: she certainly knew where death caps were growing. She originally

402
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 2: denied having a habit of foraging and then later acknowledged that,

403
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 2: which I think she started during COVID, that was a

404
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 2: hobby that she developed.

405
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: Okay, And I think police gathered the evidence with an

406
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 1: expert on phones and triangulation of They did to locations

407
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 1: where it was known that those type of mushrooms were growing.

408
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: So they knew that she'd been to these websites which

409
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: had actually specifically said where there are death caps, and

410
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 2: then they could use a cell power data to place

411
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 2: her in and around those areas for protracted amounts of time.

412
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 1: Okay, So the case is building, but still very much

413
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: a circumstantial case. And I think that the problem from

414
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 1: a policing point of view, you've got with it this

415
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: particular case, there's always an alternative hypothesis that it could

416
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: have been in a tragic accident.

417
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 2: Which is exactly what the defense said. This is just

418
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 2: an awful foraging accident. And what's interesting here, and this

419
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: would be good to hear your take on this. There

420
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 2: was no alternative outcome, So if she was found not guilty,

421
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: there was no manslaughter on the table. It was guilty

422
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: or nothing, so she walked. Basically if she was found not.

423
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: Guilty, guilty, So that takes a level of proof to

424
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: a much higher level.

425
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 2: Doesn't it Because three people are dead and a force

426
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: almost died, and yet if she's found not guilty, there

427
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: is no culpability there she walks free.

428
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: Well, manslaughter would have been the option of she knew

429
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: it was going to make them sick, but she never

430
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 1: intended to kill them. It would have been easier, the

431
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 1: bar would have been lower for the prosecutors to it

432
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: was off the table. Yeah, well, so is it?

433
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: As police? What do you make of that? I mean,

434
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: is that do you think that was a choice they

435
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: made or is that just when they charged her that's

436
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 2: not something well they considered.

437
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: I'm speaking hypothetically here, but I would I'd look at

438
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: they've gathered the evidence that this meets the meets the

439
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: level of murder, and that's that's what we're going for.

440
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: The risk though massive rest.

441
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: Or nothing, I suppose. But there was a lot of

442
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: evidence about her being untruthful. As I understand too, version

443
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: of events didn't quite add up. Now, it's one thing

444
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: to have someone admit to a crime, and that makes

445
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: it a lot easier, but if they're denying the crime,

446
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 1: sometimes their denials and untruths can work heavily against them,

447
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: and the weight or heavy weight can be placed on

448
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 1: their untruthfulness.

449
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and certainly that out during the trial. But the

450
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 2: judge in this summation made very clear to the jury

451
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 2: that she wasn't being she wasn't charged with lying. You know,

452
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 2: she was charged with murder and attempted murder, and lying

453
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: doesn't make you a murderer. But she then, obviously, you know,

454
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 2: she gave evidence and the jury were then asked to

455
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 2: believe her account even though she's saying, yes, I lied,

456
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: and she had these reasons for lying, but she's trying

457
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 2: to then convince them, Okay, I've lied, I've been caught

458
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 2: out in all of these lies. But I'm telling you

459
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: the truth now, and all of the witnesses of which

460
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: they were like fifty odd and like nine weeks of

461
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: evidence previous to that, that's all wrong. You have just

462
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: got to believe my word, even though she was still

463
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: lying on the stand, and she was caught out in

464
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: lies on the stand. So how could the jury believe

465
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: anything that she said when everything that she told them

466
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: could be disproved? You know, even when she said how

467
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 2: you know the reason that she didn't get she didn't

468
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: get sick was apparently because she had bolimia, so she'd

469
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 2: made herself vomit just after the meal. So therefore she

470
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: was saying she hadn't actually ingested any of the toxin,

471
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: or only a very minor amount for which you know,

472
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: she said she felt unwell, but no evidence of that.

473
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: But she said that she was having I think a

474
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 2: gastric band fitted, and she gave them the name of

475
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: a hospital. That clinic didn't offer that kind of surgery,

476
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: and she had no appointment there. So everything she was

477
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 2: still saying was lying. There's no evidence of her having

478
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: believed it. Now. I know people lie about eating disorders.

479
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: They do hide it. They're very good at hiding it

480
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: because for many psychological reasons, often shame. But nobody in

481
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: her sphere had any idea that she allegedly had this

482
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: eating disorder, which would be unusual to be able to

483
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: hide it from people. You know, you've been married to,

484
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: et cetera. And yeah, this hospital for which she said

485
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: she had an appointment knew nothing about her.

486
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: I looking at the case in the police, the strength

487
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: of the case would be able to being able to

488
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: disprove all the information that provide. And the judge is

489
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,239
Speaker 1: quite right in warning the jury that lying is not

490
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: the not the offense. But when you add it all up,

491
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: these inconsistencies, and it's showing an intent right from the

492
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: start to provide misinformation.

493
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: Exactly.

494
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: We're surmising what the jury, what's going through the jury's mind.

495
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: But I would imagine looking at it from a police

496
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: point of view, I'd want to be presenting all that

497
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: evidence to the courts, to the jury and let them

498
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: make their own assessment of it.

499
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: Exactly. And they showed the original police interview in which

500
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 2: she was lying, you know, saying that she didn't forage, etcetera.

501
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: So you know she started from the very beginning. Now,

502
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 2: I mean, you're a police officer, for god, I don't

503
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: know how long people lie, don't they? Yes, they tell

504
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: it because they're obviously trying to convince you of their story,

505
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: even if they haven't done it. They might lie because

506
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: they're worried they may bring something up. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

507
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: I mean how often do they lie about stupid little

508
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: things that you don't even care about, because you know

509
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: they don't want to get in trouble over something else,

510
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: you like, we're we're not in investigating that theft. I

511
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: don't care what I want to know is how this

512
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: person died, but they might still lie about it. So

513
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 2: she was lying right from the beginning. But I think

514
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: it was just the pleasor of lies. There was nothing

515
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 2: that that woman said that was true.

516
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: What were your observations, because you have a deep understanding

517
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 1: about this world, what was your observations of what you

518
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: saw that presented about her in the media watching the

519
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: case play out?

520
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: Well, I remember those we had a quick chat where

521
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: we started. I remember that first interview I saw with

522
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: her when she was standing by the car. I think

523
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: at that stage it was a few days after and

524
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: I think I think Gail, Heather, and Donn had already

525
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 2: died by time she gave this interview. Ian was still

526
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 2: a news coma and she was standing by the car.

527
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether you remember this one, but

528
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: the press pack kind of surrounded her car at the

529
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 2: house as she got out and she stood then she

530
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: was kind of wiping her eyes and she was saying

531
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: how distressed she was.

532
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 3: Devastated by what's the loss of Donn. Donn is still

533
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 3: in hospital, the loss of Anane and Heather and Gail.

534
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: It were some of the best people that I've ever met.

535
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 3: Gail was like.

536
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 4: That I didn't have because my mom passed away four

537
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 4: years ago and Gail's never been anything back good and Kline,

538
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 4: to me and Heather were some of the best.

539
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: People I've ever met. They never did anything wrong to me.

540
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 4: I'm so devastating about what's happened, lost to the community

541
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 4: and to the families, and to my own children have

542
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 4: lost their grandmother.

543
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: Can can you tell us a bit more about the lunch?

544
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 3: What I can tell you.

545
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: Is that I just can't fathom what has happened. I

546
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: just can't fathom what has happened. And yet there were

547
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: no tears on her fingers, and she kept kind of

548
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: looking down, and it reminded me of a child play acting,

549
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: and I was like, hmm. And I remember thinking, you

550
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: shouldn't be talking the press. This is really not a

551
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: good look for you. You're not doing yourself any favors. But

552
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: she continued talking to the press after that, and I

553
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: was thinking, I don't know who's advising you. She had

554
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: a lawyer by this stage, but they need to advise

555
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: you to stop talking to the press because the impression

556
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: you're giving is a bad one. And if this ever

557
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: ends up in trial, none of this is going away,

558
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: like people are going to be rewatching these these interviews,

559
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: and it was all about her. It was like, this

560
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: is affecting me. I can't leave my home. You know,

561
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: it's very difficult for me. Three people are dead, and

562
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: there was no sense of any sympathy for them.

563
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: For the victims, for the people. Yeah, and even if

564
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: she wasn't involved in it, you would be if.

565
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,239
Speaker 2: I could to meal, if I could to meal, and

566
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: several people are dying, and that's possible. Gary never eat

567
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: at my house. I'm not very good at this, but

568
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: would if it was an accident, because you know, I'm

569
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: just that bad at it. You'd still can you imagine

570
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: if you've caused that, the guilt you would feel causing

571
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: that harm to people, And there was no sense of that.

572
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: Definitely would would come across the other. The other thing

573
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: about mothers like this, and I think this is why,

574
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: and we touched on it when we first started speaking,

575
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: that people see her as an average person and yeah,

576
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: that's what.

577
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: And a mother, a mother, that's what people keep saying

578
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: to me. Could she do this? She's that this mother earth,

579
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: you know, nurture is all mothers are, you know, kind generous,

580
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: caring people while they haven't met mine. So I was like,

581
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: I can understand how mothers could do it.

582
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: I cringe when I hear people she couldn't do it

583
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: because she's a mother, and she's a mother. What And

584
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: in the jury system, that's part of what the police

585
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: had got the work past. When I imagine a female

586
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: has been charged with murdering, but she's a mother, How

587
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: could she do this?

588
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: Well, we don't say that about fathers, do we.

589
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: Why not?

590
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: You know you're going to father, You're going to a family

591
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: annihilator like Rowing Baxter who killed Hannah Clark and the

592
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: beautiful children. Nobody goes that he's a farmer, how could

593
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: he do that? The other thing people have said to me,

594
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,239
Speaker 2: which is interesting, is well, what did Simon do for

595
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: her to hate him this much? And I'm like, oh,

596
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: you know, do you want to blame the victim anymore?

597
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: Here?

598
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: Again? Did we do that with Hannah Clark? Absolutely not,

599
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: because that would have been appalling to say, well, it

600
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: was clearly her fault. She really wound him up. Who

601
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: would say that? But it's okay apparently for somebody to

602
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: murder his family and somehow it's his fault because she's

603
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: a woman. It's like, well, he must have done something. No, no,

604
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: this is all on her. There is no reason that

605
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: could possibly excuse what she has done.

606
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 1: When we look at this case, looking at looking at

607
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: motive and opportunity capability. Motive, so opportunity capability, you tick

608
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: those boxes that the motive with this particular.

609
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's the question, isn't it. Yeah?

610
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: Well, and I think it's part of the fascination. Why

611
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: would she kill? Because it's a chilling thing to do

612
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: to sit there, like sometimes your murders are a reaction

613
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: that someone loses control, loses their temper, lashes out something.

614
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, situation or explosive, yeah, in the moment.

615
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: But this land is and we're working on the basis

616
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: she's been convicted of it. This is something that takes

617
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: a lot of planning and then that's just in the

618
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: lead up to it and then consciously let that let

619
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: the murder play out by feeding these people and to

620
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: watch and it's.

621
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: Chilling, it is. She had to prepare the bushrooms in

622
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: that dehydrator, she cooked that meal. Now any stage she

623
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: could have gone, actually, what am I doing?

624
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: What am I doing?

625
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: This is wrong? Like why would I do this. She

626
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: then plated those meals up her separately to make sure

627
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: she didn't get sick, and then she watched them eat

628
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: it all while playing this happy families. It's chilling, it is,

629
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: and so people keep saying, what's the motive? But then

630
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: I pointed out to someone that I was like, well,

631
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: even if she told us, which she's not going to

632
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: write because she loves the control of this, and I

633
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: think that's why she liked talking to the media. She

634
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: was enjoying the attention. She was trying to control the narrative.

635
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: But even if she told us what her motive was,

636
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: there is no motive that can justify this. We're still

637
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: going to be going what, you know, even if she said, oh,

638
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: well Simon did this and they did this, We're still

639
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: it's going to be, you know, inexplicable regardless of what

640
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: she says, because you could never justify this ever. To

641
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: sit there and kill people in cold in cold blood like.

642
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: That that is, and watch them.

643
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: And knowing they're going to die a horrible, painful, prolonged.

644
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: Death, it is chilling. With the with the trial, did

645
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: any of that come out? The motive?

646
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: What?

647
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: What did the prosecution put forward for motive, like, you

648
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: don't have to prove mot and they didn't.

649
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: They didn't suggest a motive, which is difficult though because

650
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: everyone wants a motive. The jury wants a motive, right,

651
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: and it's easier to prove a case if you can

652
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: suggest a motive. But they didn't. There wasn't There wasn't

653
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: a motive.

654
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: Well, it's something. The motive is what you look to

655
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: pep steer you towards the suspect in the murder investigation,

656
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: but it's not the proof of murder. You don't have

657
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: to prove the motive. But the trial, the trial went

658
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: for nine or ten weeks?

659
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 2: Was it ten weeks? Nine weeks of the prosecution case,

660
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: And when they didn't speak to motives specifically, they did

661
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: look at the intra familiar relationships. They did put some

662
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: text messages up to show that there was some tensions,

663
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: so they kind of they looked at family dynamics without

664
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 2: actually saying a motive. So that was kind of as

665
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: far as they went in that area. Yeah, nine weeks.

666
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: I think one of the police officers on the stand

667
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 2: for like eight day solid just just one officer, fifty

668
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: or so witnesses across those nine weeks and then Aaron

669
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 2: Patterson gave evidence very unusual, right.

670
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: Unusual because for people that don't understand, you're not obliged

671
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: as an accused person to give evidence at the trial.

672
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: And then murder trials, it's very very rare that the

673
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: accused gets in and gives evidence.

674
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, they because a right to retain their silence.

675
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: Well, and it opens up to cross examination. So that's

676
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: the thing, right, once you're in there and then you

677
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: open the doors and the prosecutor that can start asking

678
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: all sorts of questions and.

679
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: No holds barred, Right, you're literally open to that. And

680
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 2: that's that's in essence what happened. So she gave evidence

681
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: for a few days, can't remember how many. In the

682
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: end it was over a week, I think, and she

683
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 2: did quite well. So she was very controlled, very measured.

684
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: She showed appropriate levels of emotion, but it wasn't histrionic,

685
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't over the top. But across she

686
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: seemed aggravated with some of the questions. She came across

687
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: sometimes as quite self righteous. And I interviewed for Motive

688
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 2: a Method with Tim a cup of the journalists with

689
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 2: their every single day right they watched their entire trial,

690
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: So they watched the jury throughout this, and their impression

691
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: was actually it kind of oscillated across the time which

692
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: way the jury were going. But when she was being

693
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: cross examined, that's when they think she lost the jury

694
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 2: because she got combative. She was trying to outwit the prosecutor,

695
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: she was trying to show them up. She was like,

696
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: it was almost like she just wanted to win. She

697
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: just wanted to control it. She just wanted to have

698
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: her say and prove she was smarter. Yeah. Well, look,

699
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 2: people are trying to diagnose her, right, but I'm hoping

700
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: for sentencing she will actually be formally assessed by sight. Yeah. Yeah,

701
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 2: so I've been really trying to steer away from kind

702
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: of making commentary on her individually. However, if we broaden

703
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: that out, the kind of person who always thinks they're smarter,

704
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 2: always has to win, always wants their say and things.

705
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: In the end, you know they are better than everyone

706
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: else and smarter than everyone else, does show those narcissistic traits,

707
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: and you must have come across that way.

708
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting when we break down the nature of

709
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 1: the crime she knew, Like quite often there's a murder

710
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: and people don't ever expect to be spoken to by police.

711
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: But she backed herself that clearly police are going to

712
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: be involved in a situation where three people died intending

713
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: for a fourth person to die. She knew she was

714
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: going to be cross examined, so that tells me something

715
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: about she was going to be interviewed and spoken to

716
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: by police. That tells me something about her that she

717
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: knew this was coming. So if I was approaching her

718
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: from an investigative point of view, I'd be thinking, Okay,

719
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: what do we got here. She knows that we would

720
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: be speaking to her, so she's prepared for it as

721
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: much as she can. It changes the dynamics, so she's

722
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: backing herself to pull the wool over the police eyes

723
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: and everyone else. It's looking the media. It's interesting.

724
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I think she thought she could outsmart everyone.

725
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: She could convince the police it was an accident she

726
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: could complete, She could convince the media, the public. But

727
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: I think the media interviews were about the fact she

728
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 2: was enjoying it, the attention. She was enjoying the attention.

729
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well to me, and this comes without any qualifications whatsoever.

730
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: But it doesn't surprise me that someone that's capable of

731
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: committing a crime like this for some bizarre reason with

732
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: also like the attention that forthcoming and yeah, I mean

733
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: playing the victim. Look I'm going picked on.

734
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: Oh she is very good at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

735
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,479
Speaker 2: that kind of you know, people describe her as meek.

736
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: You know, she kind of stands there looking quiet and

737
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: looking down and she's got you know, you literally would

738
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: you could live next door to that woman for twenty

739
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: years and not ever have noticed her. You know, she's

740
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: just so forgettable. Yet underneath that there is something incredibly

741
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: dark that could plan a crime of this nature and

742
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 2: go through with it and still show zero remorse afterwards.

743
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing, Like she's got to back herself

744
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: that I can do this, so I can sit in

745
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: the room knowing hard questions are going to be asked

746
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to break under those. Under that interrogation,

747
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: what was the police officer You said the police officer

748
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: was in the witness box for eight days. That is

749
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: a very long long time. And I would think with

750
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: a case like this, a lot of it's medical based

751
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence. So the credibility of the police generally when

752
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: you spend a long time in there, it's because they're

753
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: trying to rip you apart.

754
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 2: I think which one that was. I think that was

755
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: the officer. It was looking at the cell tower data,

756
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: except right, I think so. Somebody again may correct me,

757
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: but yeah, certainly, you know, they interrogated the evidence, and

758
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: so people have been asking me as well. You know,

759
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: obviously she's probably in a defense a going to try

760
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: and seek leave to appear. Whether they get it or

761
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 2: not is a different question. And also, you know the

762
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 2: jury were out for ages. Does that mean anything? But

763
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: the jury weren't out for that long. It was six

764
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 2: and a half days. They had fifty experts to go

765
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: through the transcripts. You know, nine weeks our ten weeks

766
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: including hers of evidence. That's not a long time. Is

767
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: it not a jury to be out? It may have

768
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 2: felt interminable to the rest of us waiting.

769
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it's an extraordinarily long time for

770
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: a relatively complex metal like that. Was there anything that

771
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: came out in the trial that surprised you like you

772
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 1: didn't expect?

773
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: Well, the biggest thing that surprised me was her taking

774
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: the stand. In some ways, that was the bit that

775
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: I was like, hmm, because I mean, I'm just guessing.

776
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I would imagine her defense counsel

777
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: had suggested against that because of the cross exam issue.

778
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 2: But then when I thought about it, I thought, yeah,

779
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: remembering back to those interviews you did, I can see

780
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 2: her wanting to do that. Kind of fitted with the

781
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: kind of person. But I mean, that was probably the

782
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 2: most striking thing of the trial, was her choosing to

783
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: take the stand and the combative nature of the evidence

784
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 2: at her questioning your answers at the end, I think

785
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: was what I found most interesting. I think she is

786
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: a you know, putting aside the horrible thing that she's done,

787
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 2: horrible not being a strong enough word, obviously, then she's

788
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 2: a really interesting character to study because she's you know,

789
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: nobody had any sense of this. You know, her family

790
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 2: were totally innocent to what was being planned, and she

791
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 2: must be a pretty good actress to get away with that,

792
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: don't you think to keep that to herself.

793
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: Look, I think it was the fact that she's backed

794
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: herself in to I can pull this crime off and

795
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: get away with it, because I'm no I'm going to

796
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: be questioned to be but I'm going to be able

797
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: to manage it. She my understanding, she's relatively intelligent. She's

798
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 1: another complais so yeah.

799
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, she seems I mean, certainly in the way

800
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: she handled the questions when she was on trial, especially

801
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 2: the Crown questions. If she didn't understand something, she asked

802
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 2: for clarification, so she came across I mean, she seems Yeah,

803
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: she seems intelligent. But then some of the things she

804
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: did was so dumb, like getting rid of the dehydrator

805
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 2: at a tip where there's CCTV evidence where they can

806
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 2: ping her phone to going even though so, but then

807
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: on the other hand, she's got two mobile phones, one

808
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: of which they didn't find, so she's wiping sim cards,

809
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: but she doesn't think of the CCTV at the tip.

810
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: So in some ways she's smart and in some way

811
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: super dumb. But it's almost like she's just so arrogant

812
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: and that she thinks she's going to just get away

813
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: with it.

814
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: I read the reports in the media that she was

815
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: a bit of a true crime buff.

816
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, that's apparently the case loved her. True

817
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: crime we can't talk.

818
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I'm glad there are true crime buffs.

819
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, right, Otherwise we would both be out of

820
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: a job.

821
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: Let's nothing encourage people to put it in practice. But yeah,

822
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: that's so, that's fascination. But the thing that really gets

823
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: me is the amount of preparation and planning for this.

824
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: And we discussed it, but I keep coming back to it.

825
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: Bym the dehydrator foraging the mushrooms, months in advance, months

826
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: in advance drying them. You know, this is months, if

827
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 2: not longer, of planning. And the under two phones too,

828
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 2: And I know that two phones aren't necessarily suspicious. And

829
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: we had that conversation once from around you remember some

830
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: of we have two phones, and I was like, that

831
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: looks shady, and you said I've got two phones, and

832
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: I was like, you so have I but that person

833
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: doesn't look like the kind of person you would have

834
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: two phones.

835
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: See, it's important not to judge people.

836
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: I know, but we both you know, but you have

837
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: a work phone and you have your private phone. But

838
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,479
Speaker 2: we also know that people have like a work phone

839
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: and a drug dealer phone. Right, most standard people don't

840
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: have two phones because it's a pain, isn't it juggling

841
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: both phones. It's annoying, But I know he does it

842
00:43:58,600 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 2: if they don't.

843
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: Have to again. And you and you've talked about her

844
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: being an average person in the framework of a middle

845
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: aged lady, a mother living in the she need two phones?

846
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: Why the two phones? With the jury, I think a

847
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: big a difficult point for the jury is to get

848
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: over the fact that a woman sitting in the dock

849
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: charge with a horrendous crime murdering three people, attempting to

850
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: murder a fourth person, and the nature of the crime.

851
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: In my experience, juries always struggle with that because their

852
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: perception is a mother.

853
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they look at her like and you look,

854
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 2: you do you look at it and you go, really,

855
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: you know, I think they think somebody who could commit

856
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 2: mass murder because she is now formerly a mass murder

857
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 2: as she killed you know, three people in the same event.

858
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: They expect them to like have horns and a tail

859
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 2: and look quite look evil, right, like to be able

860
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: to We like to think that we can pick them

861
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: out and we can identify them because that makes us

862
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: feel safer.

863
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: Well, I think it ties in with what we all

864
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: learned growing up stranger danger and yeah, yeah, person.

865
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 2: That person's odd, you know, there's something wrong with them.

866
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: Avoid that person. And this person sitting in front of

867
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: them on the stand. Is this average woman, this mother,

868
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: this you know, she's the husband and the family and

869
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: she's just cut this lunch and you're and they're trying

870
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 2: to see a monster there. The perception is there isn't one,

871
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 2: and so they're like they're trying to gel these two things.

872
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 2: It's very boring looking woman against one of the most

873
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 2: infamous crimes now in modern Australian criminal history.

874
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: But that, I think is why it polarized people, because

875
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: I formed a view when bits and pieces of information

876
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: were coming out and the amound of people said, Oh,

877
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: she couldn't have done that.

878
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: I look at her, how could she have done?

879
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: And she was baking?

880
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: Could she have planned? Have you seen her?

881
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: She was baking a pie.

882
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: It's it's it seems ridiculous. And I know I laughed then,

883
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: and I think that's it's so ridiculous, it's almost funny, right,

884
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: And I think that's where a lot of the memes

885
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: have come from, and a lot of the jokes. It's

886
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 2: been various comedians making jokes and I get that, and

887
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: I've seen quite a few of them on social media

888
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 2: and whatever. And somebody even was at a restaurant and

889
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: their special was beef Wellington. They were abroad and they

890
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: sent it to me and went dinners sorted. So there's

891
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: this general now like joke atmosphere. But then what you

892
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 2: said at the beginning, they've forgotten that three people died

893
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: horrendously a fourth died. And imagine the impact now on

894
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: Simon Patterson, the Patterson children in Wilkinson, the community. It's

895
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: a really small little place. They were a church community

896
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: in Wilkinson's the pasta that the pasta there, and imagine

897
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: the impact on those people. So whilst everyone's joking because

898
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: it seems so bizarre, actually this is going to change

899
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: these people's lives forever. They're never going to recover fully

900
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 2: from this. Their lives will never be the same.

901
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,439
Speaker 1: I think it's important that we get a cross set

902
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: because there's this disconnect and I think every one of

903
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: us would have heard the joke about the mushroom pie

904
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: and different things because it just became part of the

905
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 1: fabric of our community or society.

906
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: And I think it still will. Yeah, I think there's

907
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: going to be you know, we're going to take this

908
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: on as you know, as part of our social consciousness

909
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: now going forward.

910
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the impact that's had. But definitely we

911
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,479
Speaker 1: shouldn't lose sight of the fact what a horrendous crime

912
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: it is and the people's lives have been taken and

913
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: the people's lives that have been affected. Women who kill?

914
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: What's I've got my views on it, and I'll discuss

915
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: a couple of people that have been convicted of crimes.

916
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: What's your take on Obviously more men commit further than

917
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: than women, but what's your take on women who kill?

918
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think women generally kill largely for different reasons too.

919
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: Men'll be interested in your take on that. Men. We're

920
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: obviously talking into personal crimes, so you know ex's partners,

921
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: especially when they're leaving. We know that domestic vi aren'ce

922
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 2: a massive thing. Men seem to be very I would

923
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: say the ego driven when it comes out. You know,

924
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 2: women who leave them, they just can't accept that are

925
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: being left, and you know they want to be in control,

926
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: and a lot of those kind of domestic homicides happen

927
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 2: around that kind of rage and that ego driven crime.

928
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 2: Women seem to kill for different reasons, sometimes financial reasons,

929
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: sometimes jealousy, rage, but they tend to do it in

930
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: a different way as well. Poison is actually quite a

931
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: common method of choice. They don't tend, don't. I'm not

932
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 2: saying never. They don't tend to stab people or shoot people,

933
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: strangle people, for example. Obviously it's harder for a woman

934
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: strangle a man generally, but poison being a method of choice,

935
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: are a little more hands off with their methods. But

936
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: fortunately less women have those inclinations than men, although obviously

937
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: women do capable of Absolutely, yeah, absolutely came.

938
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: I look at a couple of cases that I was

939
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: involved in the aware of, but one of the cases,

940
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're aware of it. Natasha Darcy,

941
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: Beth Darcy, the widow of Waltcher. She was on up

942
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: near Newcastle Whale or says knock up around that area,

943
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: and she killed her partner by poisoning him with horse steroids.

944
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: And that was something that she was for all intents

945
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: and purposes, someone that looked like fitted into society, and

946
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: she ended up murdering, murdering her partner.

947
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 2: I mean, how many people did you arrest? Actually, if

948
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: you just looked at them, if they walked past you

949
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: on the street, you'd go, they look weird. They don't right,

950
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 2: they look so normal. And that's when, especially when there's

951
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 2: people are worried about children and they go, oh, the

952
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: kids shouldn't talk to that guy down there. He looks

953
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 2: really dodgy. The dodgy diet guy down the road is

954
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 2: not who they should be fearful of, because the children

955
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: are going to pick up any discomfort. They're the ones

956
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 2: you need to worry about. Are the ones you look

957
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 2: absolutely normal, who were teaching your kids' sport or working

958
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: in their school or their daycare. Want to kind of

959
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: contemporary example, it's not the weird guy down the road.

960
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: He hasn't done anything. He's just unusual.

961
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: Well, it just shows that you can't really judge people

962
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: what they're capable of. With that that particular case, with

963
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: the Darcy case, this is my recollection of it, that

964
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: she attempted to poison her husband before her previous husband,

965
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 1: she attempted to poison him and on her computer they

966
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: were access to.

967
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not laughing. How often does that happen? Why

968
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: do they leave it on that How to poison somebody

969
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 2: with horse tranquilized? Really?

970
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: How to cover that up? But the bizarre, the bizarre

971
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: thing with that case her new partner when she poisoned him.

972
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: The ambulance officer was her ex husband that turned up

973
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: to God, are you.

974
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: So she tried to kill the ambulance officer who turned

975
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 2: up to treat you.

976
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: The ambulance officer was her previous husband. So it was

977
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: a fascinating fascinating So she.

978
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: Was a black widow then, and actually with black widows

979
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 2: who were trying to bump off their husbands, there is

980
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 2: often a history of attempts or previous husbands that have

981
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: died that may have been that may have been ruled

982
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: as natural causes or accidental and then funnily, there's another

983
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: death and it was similar circumstances, and these poor unfortunate

984
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: people have both managed to overdose on horse tranquilizers.

985
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: How unusual the unusual.

986
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: Think what was her what was her motive?

987
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: It was? I think it was financial on that one.

988
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: That was he was a rich farmer, relatively rich, and

989
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: it was an opportunity to gain.

990
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 2: With those black widows, that's often that the it is

991
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: a financial motive, and they quite often involve other men

992
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 2: that are easily coerced. There seems to be a type

993
00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 2: of man that could be taken in by these women.

994
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 2: Women can get them to do whatever they want.

995
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: We often, yeah, they can manipulate to me, because.

996
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 2: We're not dumping off the new one. I'm not saying it, Gary,

997
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: but yeah, okay, I'll let you say that.

998
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:16,720
Speaker 1: I'm just agreed, we're not that smart.

999
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: They're easily manipulated by women.

1000
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: I would Well, I just think it's important that people

1001
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 1: understand that women are capable of these type of crimes,

1002
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: and they always.

1003
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 2: They assume then that there's something in their background which

1004
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: led them to do it. And there may be mitigating circumstances,

1005
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, child abuse or whatever. And that's the other

1006
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 2: thing people have asked me about in pattern. It's like, well,

1007
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 2: do you think there's something so damaged in her background,

1008
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 2: in her childhood that made her this way? We look

1009
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 2: when it's a woman, we look for in some ways,

1010
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: we look for excuses why they've done what they We

1011
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 2: can't accept that they are just a deeply I mean,

1012
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 2: I never use the word evil, but you know, to

1013
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: kill people, three people in that way, and tend to

1014
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 2: kill the force that that is his close as it

1015
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 2: would get right. So, but we can't accept that. When

1016
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 2: it's a woman. We look for reasons why they must

1017
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: be that way, it must be Simon's fault. It must

1018
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: be something in her background. You know, maybe it's actually

1019
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: just her.

1020
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 1: It's difficult to understand that might be the maternal part

1021
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: of people, that the mother is there caring for, caring

1022
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: for kids, and let's see experience. They said, other lady

1023
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: that we had the detective that went to the crime scene,

1024
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: that was horrendous. Catherine Mary Knight.

1025
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, Now she did have a very very

1026
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: damaged childhood. Katherine Knight. Yes, but she obviously killed her

1027
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 2: husband in an extremely brutal way. That would have been

1028
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: two thousand. Catherine Knight killed her husband. Yeah, she stabbed him.

1029
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: She stabbed him a multiple times. She then skinned him.

1030
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: This is a bit for anyone sensitive listening. This is

1031
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 2: not great. But she then hung his skin up and decapitated,

1032
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: cooked several parts of him and was going to feed

1033
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: his children from a previous relationship. She was actually going

1034
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 2: to feed them to him. Fortunately, thank god the police,

1035
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 2: the police got there before that happened. But the plates

1036
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 2: and everything were there, and she had it all like

1037
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 2: cooking on the stove or something. Yeah, I mean I've

1038
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 2: heard from other offices that was an incredibly distressing scene.

1039
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: Exactly that that was horrific. But I bring those examples

1040
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 1: up only in that, Yeah, with what we're talking with

1041
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: Aaron Pedison, like, there are many ways and women do

1042
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: commit crimes, crimes like this, and I think we need

1043
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: to have an understanding yep.

1044
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 2: And I think Catherine Knight had attempted to kill previous

1045
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: partners before as well. I think there was a history

1046
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 2: of that.

1047
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I think you're right on that there was.

1048
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: And she has got a full life terriff, so she

1049
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 2: will never be released. I think she was the first

1050
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 2: woman in Australia who was given a full life tarriff. Yeah, yeah,

1051
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 2: so no possibility of she will never be released.

1052
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: Well, the nature of the nature of the crime, I

1053
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: think that's appropriate in the circumstances.

1054
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: Yes, but yes, absolutely taking.

1055
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: Away from this whole the mushroom murder case, and you

1056
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: mentioned that people identify it. What's it say about our

1057
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: society that we're so fascinated and interested in this particular case.

1058
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 2: Well, well, obviously there's the interest in true crime which

1059
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: we mentioned, which keeps us both employed fortunately, and I

1060
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 2: think that you know, I think it may it has

1061
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: gone to far in some ways in that a lot

1062
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 2: of the time we do forget the victims, and I

1063
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: think we'd kind of started to work on that. I

1064
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 2: think things that improve, but this case has really shone

1065
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 2: a light on that that. Actually, I think crime is,

1066
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 2: especially violent crime, is very normalized. We're very used to it,

1067
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 2: We're very used to talking about it and hearing it,

1068
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 2: and it doesn't have the same emotional impact that it

1069
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 2: used to. And yeah, I worry that we're becoming a

1070
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 2: little too entertained as opposed to horrified by it.

1071
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned about the horrific nature of the death

1072
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: that those people suffered.

1073
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine prolonged and Simon watched that. Simon

1074
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: had to watch his mother die, his other family members die,

1075
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: didn't know if his dad was going to die, and

1076
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: so did the Patterson children.

1077
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's horrific.

1078
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: If you talk about mothering instincts, who would who would

1079
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: do something that they know their children are going to

1080
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 2: have to watch their family die horrendous, torturous deaths and

1081
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: then how are they ever going to get over that?

1082
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: Well, it's yeah, there's a ripple effect with any any murder,

1083
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: and yeah, passes on to generations. Unfortunately, I think that

1084
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: the public it's almost a snicker. That's a pie and

1085
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: poisoning that I don't fully understand the horrendous nature of

1086
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: this and the mentality of a person that carry that

1087
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: crime out. So I think that gives people permission to

1088
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: sort of snicker or laugh at the crime, not fully

1089
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 1: appreciating the nature of the crime.

1090
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 2: Well, I hope actually that that might shift when we

1091
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 2: get to sentencing, because some of the family may take

1092
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: the opportunity to read their victim impact statements, which they

1093
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: know they can, or they may not choose to do it,

1094
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 2: and it's entirely up to them. But I mean, you

1095
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: will have heard hundreds. They're very impactful, aren't they. You know,

1096
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 2: when the families do read those or someone needs to

1097
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 2: read them. And so when we hear the words from

1098
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 2: the people who have been harmed most by this, obviously

1099
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: except the disease victims, those who are left who are

1100
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 2: having to live with this, when we hear their words

1101
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 2: and they're reported, maybe then people will get a sense

1102
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 2: of the harm that's been caused and that it's actually

1103
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 2: not a mean to share on social media.

1104
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 1: Well, I hope so. And there is an important thing

1105
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: with victim impact states. It was actually a murder investigation

1106
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: I was involved in early in my career Island camp Lay,

1107
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: and that was the first time that victim impact statement

1108
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: was allowed in court on sentencing. And I know the

1109
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: fueral from the and the reluctance from the legal fraternity

1110
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: to have this. Well, you know, this is not the

1111
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: place for victims to comment. We don't care what it is

1112
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: the place there, well exactly. And I sat there and

1113
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: watched and it was the first time a victim impact

1114
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: statement was read out in court, and it was so powerful,

1115
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: and I think it puts in perspective what we're talking

1116
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: about here with this particular crime, and the.

1117
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 2: Whole purpose of them is to give the victims and

1118
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 2: their families, you know, the secondary victims to murders, etc.

1119
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: A chance to share have their voice because they didn't

1120
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 2: have it. They're witnesses in the criminal justice system, aren't they.

1121
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: They're not front and center. It's not a victim justice system.

1122
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: It's a criminal justice system. It's focused on the criminal

1123
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 2: and the crime or the accused of the crime. So

1124
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 2: it was meant to give them as of ownership of

1125
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 2: process and voice in that and so I can't think

1126
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 2: anywhere more appropriate then obviously the jury can't hear them

1127
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 2: predecision because you you know it would it would influence them.

1128
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 2: But for the judge who's not going to be influenced

1129
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: by those impact statements, it's you know, it gives them

1130
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 2: that chance to be heard maybe the first and only time.

1131
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: You're quite right, and they're truated. And it's so confusing

1132
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: when families have murdered victims are going through the court

1133
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: process because they feel like they're sitting on the sideline.

1134
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: They've got no in and they are they've got no input,

1135
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: there's no discussion, They're kept in the dark about so

1136
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: many things. So it is a good thing that it's

1137
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: evolved to the victim impact statement. But yeah, well, let's

1138
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: let's on this encourage people to have a listen to

1139
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: the impact that this crime has had. Horrendous crime, three people,

1140
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: as you said, a mass murderer, and.

1141
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: You and I know that it will continue to have.

1142
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 2: I mean, how many families do you know that you

1143
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: know the murder may have happened forty fifty years even

1144
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 2: and I'm not exaggerating. I've work with family for oh god,

1145
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 2: maybe about eight years now, and they lost their sister

1146
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: fifty two years ago. Now and it's had intergenerational trauma,

1147
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 2: Like people who don't even know her know the story

1148
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,919
Speaker 2: and it's affected them because no one's ever been brought

1149
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 2: to justice. They don't know what happened, they don't know why,

1150
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 2: They just know she was brutally murdered, and it still

1151
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 2: traumatizes them.

1152
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: That's said when you see it, and I've seen it

1153
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: on quite a few cases where the trauma gets passed

1154
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: on to the next generation when they're looking for answers,

1155
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: looking to find that who's responsible, and the kids are

1156
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: carrying the weight of the parents trying to find the

1157
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: answers to the murder of their uncle or auntie or

1158
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: down the track.

1159
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 2: But the family's identity shifts around the fact that they've

1160
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 2: had someone want some when they love murdered, and it

1161
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: becomes it's a central pillar of who that family is,

1162
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: part of their core identity if especially if they don't

1163
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 2: get answers. And so I think people don't understand that

1164
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: this is a news story. Now it's going to drop

1165
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 2: off the radar until the next part of the legal process.

1166
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 2: For this family, they will live this every single day

1167
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: for the rest of their lives.

1168
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: Powerful message to to get across so well, we might

1169
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,439
Speaker 1: we might leave it. Leave it there. On that note,

1170
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 1: I think that is a powerful, powerful message. It's always

1171
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 1: great and I always enjoy having a chat with you,

1172
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: and it's always informative.

1173
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: So do you have anything else to apologize for or

1174
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: admit you before? I'm sure I'll be able to think

1175
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,959
Speaker 2: of something next time. I'll think I'll think of something

1176
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 2: else you were wrong about, and I'll remind you.

1177
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: You don't have to highlight my failings blatantly. Obviously I

1178
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Actually, Okay, well, I've said at the start,

1179
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: I don't have to say it again. I was I

1180
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: don't have to say I was wrong.

1181
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 2: They heard it. People want to replay that. It's there

1182
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 2: in perpetuity.

1183
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: Highlight reel from my catch killers I was wrong, Okay,

1184
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: call it that. Okay, Well, we'll catch up soon, I hope.

1185
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: I hope your podcast with Tim Watson Monroe is a

1186
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: method and motive is going well, and we'll have to

1187
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: catch up soon and make sure Tim encourage us to Tim.

1188
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 2: And Duncan getting us into trouble again.

1189
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: It's never our fault. It's always okay.

1190
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 2: Good to talk to you, Thanks very much, by Thanksgaring