Speaker 1: It was twenty nineteen when journalist Emily Matless sat down
Speaker 1: for that card crash interview with then Prince Andrew.
Speaker 2: She described dancing with you and you profusely sweating, and
Speaker 2: that she went on to have Bob possibly there's.
Speaker 3: A slight problem with the sweating because I have a
Speaker 3: peculiar medical condition, which is that I don't sweat.
Speaker 1: It was the beginning of the end for the Prince.
Speaker 4: A huge moment for the royal family. Prince Andrew is
Speaker 4: stepping back from royal duties as the fallout from his
Speaker 4: BBC News Night interview continues.
Speaker 1: Now, Andrew mount Batten Windsor has again hit the headlines,
Speaker 1: this time for allegedly sharing secret trade documents with Jeffrey Epstein,
Speaker 1: and there's the fallout from the Epstein files threatens to
Speaker 1: take down everyone from ambassadors to prime ministers. Emily Maetless
Speaker 1: again has a front row seat as the saga unfold.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is i would say, probably one of
Speaker 2: the biggest political corruption scandals we've ever seen in our lifetime.
Speaker 2: She has it. I'm described in the cat.
Speaker 1: I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today.
Speaker 1: Emily matelers from the Newsagent's podcast on Andrew, the Epstein
Speaker 1: files and how Trump is reshaping Europe. It's Wednesday, February eighteen. So, Emily,
Speaker 1: a lot has happened since your infamous interview with then
Speaker 1: Prince Andrew over the Epstein scandal. There's now pressure on
Speaker 1: police to investigate Andrew Mountbatten windsor why hasn't that happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, ah, there's
Speaker 2: a phrase that's used in sort of political theory, which
Speaker 2: is slowly and then suddenly, and that feels like where
Speaker 2: we are now. Things could have started six years ago,
Speaker 2: but they didn't. And I think human nature is not
Speaker 2: to do anything until you have to. And now everyone
Speaker 2: is kind of looking at whether it's the politics, whether
Speaker 2: it's the DOJ in the US, whether it's the palace here,
Speaker 2: everyone is now looking and saying, what's going on? Why
Speaker 2: aren't you moving quickly? And that's why things are happening.
Speaker 2: So I guess the pressure has come from the victims
Speaker 2: themselves for so long, And I guess now we've got
Speaker 2: all the Epstein files, it's on us. It's on us
Speaker 2: as journalists and reporters, and it's on the prosecutors and
Speaker 2: the lawyers and the institutions like Congress and the Metropolitan
Speaker 2: Police and the Palace to say yeah, we hear you.
Speaker 2: We're doing this now.
Speaker 1: So emily, with that crescendo really building, how does the
Speaker 1: British public feel about Andrew now that all of this
Speaker 1: has come to light, and how does it affect how
Speaker 1: they also see the royals more broadly.
Speaker 2: I think the tide turned on Andrew pretty quickly after
Speaker 2: that relationship with Epstein was exposed. And I would say
Speaker 2: that we didn't really understand Epstein. You know, for years
Speaker 2: there was this sort of shadowy name. We'd had our
Speaker 2: own scandal, we had the Jimmy Savile scandal. He was
Speaker 2: the worst pedophile any of us could ever imagine, and
Speaker 2: Epstein was kind of like somebody else's problem. You know,
Speaker 2: it was over there. We didn't really get it. But
Speaker 2: I think now we really understand the depth and the
Speaker 2: breadth of the depravity and of that power. Circle.
Speaker 5: Pictures appearing to show Andrew man Batten Windsor crouched over
Speaker 5: an unidentified woman are featured in the latest disclosure of
Speaker 5: files linked to the late American sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 5: The images are among.
Speaker 2: More, and I think that there is a fury. Actually,
Speaker 2: there is a few around Andrew and what was tolerated
Speaker 2: for so long. And obviously I have to say he
Speaker 2: denies all wrongdoing. That is something that every journalist still
Speaker 2: puts as an addendum in all their reporting, and we
Speaker 2: will stick to that because legally that is the case.
Speaker 2: But if you ask me about public perception, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: not great. It's not great. And my sense is that
Speaker 2: King Charles knows that this is a really delicate moment
Speaker 2: actually for the monarchy.
Speaker 3: King Charles' first public appearance since the latest Epstein Farles
Speaker 3: relays this was inevitable, Your.
Speaker 1: Majesty, will your family help with the Epstein investigation.
Speaker 2: I think there is still a proper solid majority in
Speaker 2: favor of the monarchy and the royal family, but there
Speaker 2: are more questions about transparency, more questions about the money
Speaker 2: being spent. But I do think that the King feels
Speaker 2: that this is a fairly critical moment actually, and I
Speaker 2: think that's why we've seen such dramatic steps in the
Speaker 2: last six months, even before the release of the Epstein files.
Speaker 2: The removal of the titles, removal of the housing and
Speaker 2: Royal Lodge, and all the rest of it, I think
Speaker 2: was the King sort of saying, yeah, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to be party to this. I'm not going to let
Speaker 2: you bring down the whole.
Speaker 1: House and look. Aside from the royal family, the Epstein
Speaker 1: files have obviously been causing huge political problems for the
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Kirs Stammer. He's been blamed for appointing Lord
Speaker 1: Peter Mendelsson as US ambassador.
Speaker 4: I am sorry, sorry for what was done to you,
Speaker 4: Sorry that so many people with power failed you. Sorry
Speaker 4: for having believed Mandelsson's lies and appointed him.
Speaker 1: So could you take us through what we know about
Speaker 1: MENDELSSHN and the Stein files.
Speaker 2: So the appointment of Lord Mandelssoh in January of last
Speaker 2: year was not, and I should say it was not
Speaker 2: greeted by howls of condemnation at the time. If you
Speaker 2: look at the press, you know there were different people saying, oh, well,
Speaker 2: you know, is he the right man for the job,
Speaker 2: he's too close to Europe? Is he the right man
Speaker 2: for the job, he's too close to China. But people
Speaker 2: weren't at that point talking about his relationship with Epstein,
Speaker 2: and I do think that's important to remember. But it
Speaker 2: became apparent last September that he had a much closer
Speaker 2: relationship with Epstein than anyone had realized. And I think
Speaker 2: the clanger was when we realized that he had been
Speaker 2: serving as Business Secretary, He'd been brought in by Gordon
Speaker 2: Brown's government just after the financial crash, and he still
Speaker 2: somehow deemed it wise to call up Jeffrey Epstein to
Speaker 2: stay at his house in New York whilst Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 2: was serving a prison sentence. Now, the idea that there
Speaker 2: was a person right at the heart of government who
Speaker 2: was a sort of de facto deputy Prime Minister who
Speaker 2: still thought it was okay to be hanging out and
Speaker 2: hanging in the house of Jeffrey Epstein whilst Epstein was
Speaker 2: in prison was something that I think the Prime Minister
Speaker 2: then found it impossible to ignore, and he was fired
Speaker 2: by kirst Armer and the story might have ended there.
Speaker 2: But the release of the files has shown us how
Speaker 2: much worse it was. That it wasn't just that Manilson
Speaker 2: was staying in Epstein's house. It wasn't just that he'd
Speaker 2: lied about the length and the intensity of that relationship,
Speaker 2: but it was the fact, as we are now led
Speaker 2: to believe from these emails that Manson appeared to be
Speaker 2: pushing government business speeches, decisions, policies directly towards Epstein before
Speaker 2: the British public even knew about them. Epstein knew about
Speaker 2: the euro bailout that was meant to save the banking
Speaker 2: system in the financial crash before we did. Epstein knew
Speaker 2: about Gordon Brown's resignation before we did, and that has
Speaker 2: just put it in a whole different category. It is
Speaker 2: something that I don't think anyone could have imagined that
Speaker 2: you would have a de facto deputy Prime Minister working
Speaker 2: against the interests of the British government in the years
Speaker 2: following the greatest financial crash we've ever seen, when our
Speaker 2: country was absolutely on its knees, and would be taking
Speaker 2: what he knew to a billionaire before his own.
Speaker 1: Country coming up, Why twenty twenty eight could be a
Speaker 1: turning point for the world Emily if we could move
Speaker 1: on to the unique security conference that we just had
Speaker 1: on the weekend now. Last year we had that sort
Speaker 1: of shocking speech from JD Vans to the European leaders.
Speaker 6: The threat that I worry the most about Visa e
Speaker 6: Europe is not Russia, it's not China, it's not any
Speaker 6: other external actor. And what I worry about is the
Speaker 6: threat from within the retreat of Europe from some of
Speaker 6: its most fundamental values, values shared with the United States
Speaker 6: of America and Britain and across Europe. Free speech, I
Speaker 6: fear is in retreat.
Speaker 1: Everyone was waiting to see what would be said this
Speaker 1: time round, but the US, it seems it did tone
Speaker 1: down its message, sending Secretary of State Marco Rubio. How
Speaker 1: are European leaders, including the UK, responding to that message
Speaker 1: from the UN out of Munich, especially after what happened
Speaker 1: in Venezuela and Greenland? Are they buying any of it?
Speaker 2: I mean, look, Marco is the sort of family friendly
Speaker 2: cabinet member. He's the one that they sort of allowed
Speaker 2: loose at Munich this year after how badly JD Vance
Speaker 2: went down last year. But I'm not sure that in
Speaker 2: substance there was anything very different.
Speaker 7: We want allies who are proud of their culture and
Speaker 7: of their heritage, who understand that we are heirs to
Speaker 7: the same great and noble civilization, and who together with us,
Speaker 7: are willing and able to defend it.
Speaker 2: I spent last week with an EU ambassador and a
Speaker 2: NATO foreign minister, and I was asking about the whole
Speaker 2: relationship with America now, and I'm starting to sense there
Speaker 2: is a kind of creeping distaste amongst some leaders with
Speaker 2: the way Mark Rutter is sort of handling things NATO
Speaker 2: Secretary General, because the whole sort of you know, pacification
Speaker 2: of Trump, which has been going on now for a year,
Speaker 2: and we saw it in the Hague last June, you know,
Speaker 2: the NATO gathering where Mark Ruster was sort of calling
Speaker 2: Trump daddy and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1: He's quite fawning.
Speaker 2: Well, it was fawny, and it was quite Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: quite hard to listen to.
Speaker 1: I'm let him fight for about two or three minutes,
Speaker 1: then it's easy to step up.
Speaker 4: And then has sometimes strong language, strong.
Speaker 2: And I think that might have worked for the week.
Speaker 2: You know, Trump went off happy in June. But it
Speaker 2: didn't stop anything, you know, didn't didn't stop Trump still
Speaker 2: turning on NATO, didn't stop Trump from still threatening to
Speaker 2: invade Greenland. It didn't stop Trump from saying, oh, I
Speaker 2: don't believe that NATO would come to America's rescue. Didn't
Speaker 2: stop Trump from virtually anything that he'd kind of considered doing.
Speaker 2: I don't know that sort of pandering to whatever Trump
Speaker 2: decides this week is necessarily going to be a secure
Speaker 2: footing for the EU, or for NATO or for our
Speaker 2: future sort of autonomy on defense or spending. And so
Speaker 2: my sense is that people came away from Munich more
Speaker 2: relieved this year than they did last year. But I
Speaker 2: think the bigger questions, the existential questions, remain, which is
Speaker 2: is America still an active ally for NATO? Is it
Speaker 2: still a place that you would trust? Do believe that
Speaker 2: he's going to leave Greenland alone? Do you believe he's
Speaker 2: going to leave Canada alone? And so I think that
Speaker 2: NATO would be foolish to think that everything had calmed
Speaker 2: down just because they sent Marco Rubio, and I think
Speaker 2: that they probably wouldn't do themselves any favors by thinking
Speaker 2: that things are all going to go back to normal
Speaker 2: if they do what Trump says.
Speaker 1: And Emily, I mean, it's pretty clear that that's what
Speaker 1: the Unique Security Conference thinks. They put out that report
Speaker 1: talking about this new era with a lust for destruction,
Speaker 1: that the international order is under threat. Is Europe divided
Speaker 1: though about what to do about it? And what do
Speaker 1: you think all of this actually means for the world
Speaker 1: order as we've known it, and as Europe's known it
Speaker 1: since nine peint forty five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Europe's asking itself some really big questions now. I mean,
Speaker 2: the divide is between those countries that border Russia and
Speaker 2: those countries that are much further south. And if you
Speaker 2: talk to EU leaders from Spain and from Portugal and
Speaker 2: from Greece, they'll say the biggest problem for Europe is immigration.
Speaker 2: You know, the northern countries don't understand what it's like
Speaker 2: to have this implect of migrants, particularly from the Middle East,
Speaker 2: particularly from Africa. We're right at the forefront of that.
Speaker 2: We're having to deal with that day in and day out.
Speaker 2: If you talk to the Poles and the Estonians, you know,
Speaker 2: the Finns, the people who actually border Russia, they say,
Speaker 2: we've got a war on our border. You know, our
Speaker 2: defense spending is already about five percent our defense spending.
Speaker 2: We've already got conscription, We've already got literally, you know,
Speaker 2: young men and women in our villages who are armed,
Speaker 2: who know that they may have to respond at any
Speaker 2: moment to an incursion by Russia. And so you can
Speaker 2: see how Europe is sort of facing two different directions
Speaker 2: at the moment. Is it the end of the old order?
Speaker 2: I was talking to somebody who was very close to
Speaker 2: the Clinton advisor actually last week, who said, twenty twenty
Speaker 2: eight is going to be the most important presidential election
Speaker 2: of any of our lifetimes, because that is the point
Speaker 2: at which we will work out whether it was Trump
Speaker 2: and it was Trump only Maga lived and died with Trump,
Speaker 2: or whether that is the future direction. And I think
Speaker 2: that's why the Democrats know that this is this is
Speaker 2: a really risky time, you know, twenty tw If they're
Speaker 2: not in power, then then they've basically waved goodbye to
Speaker 2: the old world order.
Speaker 1: Emily, thank you so much for speaking with us.
Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Emily Mateless will appear in Melbourne presented by the Wheeler
Speaker 1: Center on March five, and at the All About Women
Speaker 1: Festival in Sydney on March eight. Also in the news,
Speaker 1: police are investigating after a stabbing spree that left one
Speaker 1: person dead and two critically injured in Western Sydney. Witnesses
Speaker 1: have described sprinting to escape a man they say stabbed
Speaker 1: multiple people at random on a busy street in Maryland,
Speaker 1: a man has been arrested and the PM says he
Speaker 1: has no sympathy for a group of thirty four Australian
Speaker 1: women and children trying to return home from Syria. The women,
Speaker 1: known as the Isis Brides, have been stuck in a
Speaker 1: Syrian detention camp for seven years, trying and failing this
Speaker 1: week to come back to Australia, but Albinizi says the
Speaker 1: government won't be repatriating the group, who have links to
Speaker 1: Islamic state fighters. I'm Nicole Johnson. This is seven AM.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.