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Speaker 1: We're not really addressing loan of this very well in

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Speaker 1: our health systems until now. You know, clinical psychologists are

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Speaker 1: not being trained around what noneliness is. We're just not

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Speaker 1: being trained in this.

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Speaker 2: Area, Doctor Michelle Limb, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Paul.

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Speaker 2: This is a long overdue topic. I think I've done

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Speaker 2: a Wisdom Wednesday on it quite a while ago, just

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Speaker 2: in terms of a little bit of the impact of

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Speaker 2: loneliness and longevity, but it was very very brief, and

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Speaker 2: I have been wanting to find somebody to do a

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Speaker 2: deep dive on it because I think it's a massive

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Speaker 2: problem and I think it's something that's getting bigger, and

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Speaker 2: that's the topic of loneliness.

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Speaker 3: And I think you're very well qualified to talk about this.

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Speaker 2: Given that number one year clinical psychologist you work at

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Speaker 2: the University of Sydney, but you're also the CEO of

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Speaker 2: Ending Loneliness Together. And are you still the director of

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Speaker 2: the Social Health and Well Being Aboratory.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a group at at the University of Sydney.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, cool, So tell us maybe let's start there

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Speaker 2: about that Social health and well being love and you

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Speaker 2: know why you decided to get involved in that as

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Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist. What was it that you saw or

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Speaker 2: attracted you into this space in the first place?

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Speaker 3: And then what do you guys do You're not social

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Speaker 3: health and well being space, you know.

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Speaker 1: Paul, I think that's a good start, because I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, like many people who start off a career

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Speaker 1: in one area sometimes find themselves, you know, with a

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Speaker 1: foot and another And this is basically what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: I was a clinical psychologist probably now for good twenty

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Speaker 1: years now, so it's kind of been some time and

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Speaker 1: when I was training and also kind of the earliest

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Speaker 1: of being a psychologist. What I've found what's happening on

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Speaker 1: the ground as a kind of practitioner on the ground

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Speaker 1: was that social care really was not prioritized. It's really

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Speaker 1: almost seen as an afterthought. It's almost seen as, oh,

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Speaker 1: we've kind of fixed all the physical and mental health stuff, right,

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Speaker 1: let's discharge this person, and if that person's lucky, they

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Speaker 1: might get connected into more social activities and groups if

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Speaker 1: they're lucky, and sometimes if they're willing. So it's almost

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Speaker 1: like an afterthought. And increasingly we're starting to realize in

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Speaker 1: the scientific, you know, part of the field, that loneliness

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Speaker 1: so the subjective feeling of the stress that comes up

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Speaker 1: for you when you feel your relationships do not meet

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Speaker 1: your current social needs. It's a very subjective feeling, so

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Speaker 1: it's not something necessarily a clinician myself can detect unless

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Speaker 1: I ask, So it's something that is very internal and

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Speaker 1: often very silent. We really just in signs starting to

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Speaker 1: realize it's not just being physically alone that's not helpful,

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Speaker 1: because that in itself is huge grammifications for mortality and health,

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Speaker 1: but also just feeling like you're alone, not just physically

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Speaker 1: physically alone, that on top of that has huge ramifications.

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Speaker 1: But really we're not really addressing loan oness very well

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Speaker 1: in our health systems. And until now, you know, clinical

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Speaker 1: psychologists are not being trained around what nonliness is, and

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Speaker 1: not just clinical psychologists but generally or health practitioners. We're

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Speaker 1: just not being trained in this area. And it's traditionally

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Speaker 1: seen as a soft issue. It's traditionally seen as should

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Speaker 1: be right. You know, we'll be fine, we get rid

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Speaker 1: of this mental health issue, so we'll get rid of that,

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Speaker 1: we fix those physical health issues, and then they'll not

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Speaker 1: be lonely. But we're also realizing now that if we are.

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Speaker 1: People are more connected. If they're feeling like they have

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Speaker 1: that meaningful social connections, they're more likely to survive, They're

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Speaker 1: less likely to have mobidity of other problems, They're more

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Speaker 1: likely to recover quicker. So, you know, we just starting

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Speaker 1: to challenge that thinking that social health is not important,

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Speaker 1: that we can just suit better than rug and it

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Speaker 1: will just be fine as soon as we kind of

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Speaker 1: address those problems.

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Speaker 2: I think part of that is that we don't really

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Speaker 2: have a health care system. We have a sick curse system.

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Speaker 2: You know, you look at the spending on government spending

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Speaker 2: on health, I think something like ninety eight and a

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Speaker 2: half percent is on tertiary treatment, and we're.

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Speaker 3: Not very proactive.

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Speaker 2: How much of it is because of that, and how

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Speaker 2: much of it is that the whole social health has

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Speaker 2: been under research, and then how much of it is

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Speaker 2: the fact that loneliness is actually subjective and it's not

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Speaker 2: really a condition so.

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Speaker 1: To space, Yes, yes, very good questions. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I know the answer to it. I think I

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Speaker 1: will speak more broadly around that is that you're right.

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Speaker 1: I think you know, loneliness has traditionally seen as that

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Speaker 1: person's problem. It is your problem. You fix it. It's

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Speaker 1: your responsibility. We're starting to realize now that first of all,

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Speaker 1: while it's not a pathological problem, if we ignore it

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Speaker 1: and we neglect it and we don't actually address it,

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Speaker 1: it becomes bad for our health. It stops us from

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Speaker 1: getting better. You know, That's where the problem is, because

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Speaker 1: we ignore it and we sweep better on the rug

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Speaker 1: and pretend it's not there. And in fact, last year

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Speaker 1: when we did launch the Stay of the Nation Report,

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Speaker 1: people who did say that they feel lonely, we're just

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Speaker 1: too embarrass or ashamed to talk about it, and they

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Speaker 1: actually actively conceal it. So like at least half of

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Speaker 1: the people were saying it, they actually conceal it. They

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Speaker 1: don't tell you, they actively try to hide it. And

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Speaker 1: this is a problem because I think the word loneliness

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Speaker 1: right now still has this very negative connotation.

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Speaker 3: But what we.

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Speaker 1: Really are trying to change is that we need to

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Speaker 1: let people know it is just a very normal signal

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Speaker 1: for you to kind of do something different about your

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Speaker 1: connections that you're not really getting at the moment, the

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Speaker 1: connections that you need that you really would like, and

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Speaker 1: that it's not pathological. But when we ignore it, that

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Speaker 1: becomes a problem, and so we really need to start

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Speaker 1: that language around that.

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Speaker 2: And do people in your experience, I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you've asked them why they conceal it.

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Speaker 3: Is it because of sheer or stigma or.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, it's very much.

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Speaker 3: I mean.

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Speaker 1: The study also looked at misconceptions about what loneliness is,

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Speaker 1: and people were holding a lot of misconceptions around that,

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Speaker 1: thinking that this is something that if they knew more

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Speaker 1: people then they would just be less lonely. Perhaps even

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Speaker 1: loneliness only affects all the people, that's it. You know,

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Speaker 1: people who are lonely are not worthy of others, you know.

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Speaker 1: So you're holding all these misconceptions that have been probably

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Speaker 1: cemented over the years with social media, all kind of

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Speaker 1: movies that kind of depict what loneliness is, and you're

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of misconceptions of what it is, what

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Speaker 1: it's not, and how do we actually talk about it

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Speaker 1: and how do we deal with it. We now know

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Speaker 1: this is not an issue that is soft. It's an

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Speaker 1: issue that is now considered health problem and really the

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Speaker 1: next global health priority beyond COVID and the World Health

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Speaker 1: Organization just recently launched their commission as the kind of

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Speaker 1: three year high level commission on this issue. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're basically saying, we need to reposition this issue because

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Speaker 1: it's not just social isolation that's bad. Loneliness and feeling

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Speaker 1: like you don't have those meaningful connections is just as

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Speaker 1: bad for you as as all the other things that

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Speaker 1: we know are bad for you.

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Speaker 3: And so let's get into defining loneliness. Then.

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Speaker 2: Is there an agreed upon scientific definition of loneliness there?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I would refer to the Global Initiative on Loanings

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Speaker 1: Connection Definitions, which is really the working definition that we're

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Speaker 1: using at the moment, and it is really around a

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Speaker 1: subjective feeling of distress. But you desire particular relationships but

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Speaker 1: you don't have them. Be it quality and sometimes with

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Speaker 1: some groups around quantity, And I say quantity for some

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Speaker 1: groups because young people, for example, desire more. They don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily desire higher quality relationships at this stage, just still

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Speaker 1: desiring more relationships and not really understanding that quality is

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Speaker 1: probably easier to focus on instead of quantity. And social

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Speaker 1: isolation is really around the frequency of contact that you

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Speaker 1: have with people. You know, for example, we've met today

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Speaker 1: and we're less.

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Speaker 4: Socially isolated because we have met today and we have

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Speaker 4: more social interactions because we're chatting, we're talking.

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Speaker 1: It's something around the number of roles that you might

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Speaker 1: have in the community, whether you spoke to someone that day,

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Speaker 1: the number of connections you have. We again, we do

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Speaker 1: know that if you socially isolated, we traditionally already know

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Speaker 1: that you're more likely to say, experience a range of

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Speaker 1: different different kinds of health problems as well. And sometimes,

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Speaker 1: you know, the word social connection is being kind of

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Speaker 1: tossed around it, and what social connection is is really

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Speaker 1: an umbrella term that talks about less loneliness and less

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Speaker 1: social isolation. So it's basically covering both ends, the quantity

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Speaker 1: and the quality aspects.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that makes sense. Just a little detail into

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Speaker 2: the young people feeling like they want to have more

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Speaker 2: social connections and not necessarily about the quality.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, has that changed over time.

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Speaker 2: I'm just wondering whether the advent of social media and

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Speaker 2: having lots and lots of friends has a kind of

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Speaker 2: an impact on people thinking that they need to have

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Speaker 2: more and more the young people.

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Speaker 1: I think we need to do a lot of work

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Speaker 1: here actually, poor you know, I think that I've run

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Speaker 1: a lot of programs focusing on reducing loneliness in young people,

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Speaker 1: and they will often come to me and it's where

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Speaker 1: their headspace is. They are prioritizing more, they are not

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Speaker 1: necessarily prioritizing high quality, and so I really have to

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Speaker 1: get them to focus on You don't need to make

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Speaker 1: a new friend, but I want you to focus on

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Speaker 1: the quality of relationships that you already hold. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's easier for young people, especially if they have kind

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Speaker 1: of co occurring mental your health and they find it

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Speaker 1: quite overwhelming to make a new friend. And that's fine.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is about you know, changing stanges and

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Speaker 1: the acquaintances and you know, getting to know an acquaintance

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Speaker 1: and potentially changing them to a friend. We don't need

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Speaker 1: best friends. We just need to have more meaningful conversations

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Speaker 1: about more higher quality relationships. Sometimes it's about focusing on

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Speaker 1: the current relationship, like a primary care giver kind of relationship,

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Speaker 1: a grandparent, a sister, cousin. Focus on that, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think people often kind of put a lot of

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Speaker 1: expectations on themselves and to say, oh, I need to

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Speaker 1: change everything. You don't need to change everything. You just

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Speaker 1: need to focus on one thing. And one thing that

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Speaker 1: you can do so you feel successful, you feel confident,

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Speaker 1: and then we build you know, it's something that we

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Speaker 1: make sure that you have those realistic expectations.

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Speaker 2: I was just going to say I would like to

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Speaker 2: come back to that a little bit later on whenever

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Speaker 2: we talk about the use of today and the role

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Speaker 2: of social media in all of this. But I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to talk about the incidence of loneliness, like how

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Speaker 2: long have you been tracking it or other people been

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Speaker 2: tracking it? So what do we know? What is the

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Speaker 2: data telling us about change over time, either in Australia

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Speaker 2: or globally, and then also about different age groups and

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Speaker 2: the prevalence in different age groups. Take that in any order.

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Speaker 1: One of the issues that we have with loneliness is

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Speaker 1: the measure measurement of loneliness has been very varied across

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Speaker 1: the years. In fact, people do a really good job

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Speaker 1: of measuring social isolation because, as I mentioned to you,

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Speaker 1: something a bit more observable, you know, and loneliness is

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Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult because you have to ask

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Speaker 1: that person. And then with the stigma that comes along

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Speaker 1: with that, people under report loneliness.

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Speaker 3: On top of.

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Speaker 1: That and the varying data sets that I've kind of

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Speaker 1: looked at over across the world, and the ones currently

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Speaker 1: right now are saying they're fairly stable, that it's always

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Speaker 1: been there. It's just probably we're talking a lot more

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Speaker 1: about it right now. Oh yeah, there's more awareness that

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Speaker 1: we should be talking about this because this is just

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Speaker 1: as important social isolation. There might be emerging post COVID.

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Speaker 1: I think there might be different data that might come up,

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Speaker 1: But I'm not entirely sure about the stability of loneliness

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Speaker 1: post COVID. I think it's it's a little difficult to

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Speaker 1: say because we do have to track them over a

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Speaker 1: long period of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was going to say, it's like

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Speaker 2: when you're doing large Gill surveys.

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Speaker 3: They're not done every month.

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Speaker 1: No, no, they're not, and we have.

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Speaker 3: To weird until we get a big set of down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And in fact, we still can't agree how loneliness

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Speaker 1: is properly measured right now, because there are measures that

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Speaker 1: relate to some people across the ages differently. I know,

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Speaker 1: for example, when I was working with adolescents, you know,

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Speaker 1: they didn't understand the word companionship when I asked them,

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Speaker 1: do you do you feel like you like companionship and

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Speaker 1: they say, I have no idea what that word is.

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Speaker 1: So we're using a scale that's not really student to them.

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Speaker 1: They're going to just under report loneliness. Same thing with

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the scales that we're using, you know,

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Speaker 1: the interpretation of someone who's older versus someone's younger might

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Speaker 1: be completely different. So we really need a standardized consensus

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Speaker 1: definition as well as measurement, and that's what the World

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Speaker 1: Health Organization is trying to do, is to kind of

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Speaker 1: get this Global Social Connection Index to make sure that

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Speaker 1: we're measuring the same thing. This is all great as well,

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Speaker 1: but you know, there's also some cultures that don't have

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Speaker 1: the word loneliness in their vocabulary.

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Speaker 5: So you know, it's again it's one of those things

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Speaker 5: that you know, it's important to measure, but there are

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Speaker 5: cultures that were used to word solitude a proxy for loneliness.

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Speaker 1: But you know that's not the same thing because that's

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Speaker 1: very much more being physically alone. Yes, so yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: a cross cultural element that we also have to consider.

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Speaker 1: We're doing these sorts of big index and measurements.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that just adds in a layer of complexity.

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Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's kind of akin to measuring happiness, right,

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Speaker 2: because there's lots of different definitions of happiness or whether

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Speaker 2: you're talking about happiness, where you're talking about human flourishing,

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Speaker 2: whether you're talking about subjective well being, and there's different

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Speaker 2: skills for these sorts of things. You're right, it's hard

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Speaker 2: to get real data on it. But I mean, and

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Speaker 2: if we if we talk about happiness, I very recently

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Speaker 2: did a podcast with doctor Tim Sharp from the Happiness

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Speaker 2: Institute and we were talking exactly about this, and he

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Speaker 2: was talking about, well, flourishing is a better definition.

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Speaker 3: Than just happiness.

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Speaker 2: But looking into the flourishing research, there is a bucket

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Speaker 2: load of stuff in there about social stuff about social connectedness,

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Speaker 2: social integration, social growth. It's kind of well recognized that

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Speaker 2: it has a big impact on overall human flourishing. But

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Speaker 2: in terms of you look at those happiness are subjective

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Speaker 2: well being inverted classic inverted U shape that we tend

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Speaker 2: to see and that's where people tend to be happier

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Speaker 2: in their late teens.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of the peak.

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Speaker 2: And then it drops off and there's a nid deer

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Speaker 2: in the pin people's forties and then they pick up

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Speaker 2: again afterwards. Do we see something similar in terms of

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Speaker 2: loneliness or is it not that straightforward?

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Speaker 1: We see in some data sets a U curve distribution,

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Speaker 1: so you have high loneliness at both ends of the

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Speaker 1: age groups. So increasingly I'm seeing little bumps or blips

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Speaker 1: in the middle ages as well, around the forty five

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Speaker 1: to fifty four years, which I think is quite interesting.

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Speaker 1: I don't really we don't really know the reason because

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Speaker 1: you know, that age group is really under research and

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Speaker 1: we don't really expect much happening in that age group,

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Speaker 1: and we're seeing a bit of a blip, especially in Australia,

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Speaker 1: the forty five to fifty four age group. So but

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Speaker 1: it's well known across the world.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you what what And then it was one perspective,

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Speaker 2: big contribute to there will be kids and kids sport

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Speaker 2: and every minute that you have.

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Speaker 3: Spur is running around dropping off kids.

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Speaker 1: All you have no time social health, yeah, you.

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Speaker 2: Have no time, no time for yourself. And then older parents,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're we're kind of known because I'm in

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Speaker 2: that age group. We're known as the Sandwich generation, you know,

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Speaker 2: where you've got young kids in life are very busy,

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Speaker 2: and then you've got older parents who are starting to

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Speaker 2: be riddled with disease or dying, right, so you have

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Speaker 2: kind of resource that has an impact.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: That is absolutely.

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Speaker 1: That's my hypothesized factors as well. And when I kind

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Speaker 1: of look at those blits and it could be also

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Speaker 1: a but it's a change in career. We don't know

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Speaker 1: what's happening as well on top of that, but it is.

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Speaker 1: It is having you know, teenagers potentially and having aging

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Speaker 1: parents and having to juggle. It's a difficult time to

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Speaker 1: you might have more resources, but you don't really in

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Speaker 1: terms of time and other things that they're kind.

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Speaker 3: Of getting the way. But yeah, self.

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Speaker 1: Cares at the ultimate low probably.

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Speaker 2: I remember reading something around loneliness that particularly in divorces,

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Speaker 2: that we see much more loneliness in meals who have

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Speaker 2: become divorced, yes, And the thinking around that was that

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Speaker 2: a lot of the friendship groups of couples tend to

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Speaker 2: be the wife's friends. And you know, that's a kind

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Speaker 2: of a symptom from older times when the I would

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Speaker 2: be working more and you know, the mom would have

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Speaker 2: mother's group and all of that stuff, and then the

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Speaker 2: school kids and stuff like that, and then when they're divorced,

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Speaker 2: the wife ends up with more friends left than the

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Speaker 2: male does, particularly if it's a nasty divorce.

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Speaker 3: And have you seen that near research or is that just.

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Speaker 1: A blad We haven't specifically looked at divorced men, but

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Speaker 1: what we do see is people who are single, divorced

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Speaker 1: or widowed us significantly more lonely. And it also tells

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Speaker 1: us where people place the importance on intimate loneliness and

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Speaker 1: on intimate relationship, and if they don't have that intimate relationship,

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Speaker 1: they're really very much at risks of loneliness and what

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Speaker 1: you're saying, though, Paul, is very common for us to

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Speaker 1: hear that men are really very much at risk and

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Speaker 1: and also at risk of poor mental health when that happens,

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Speaker 1: because it's a huge shock to the system. It's a

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Speaker 1: huge upheaval of their life, and they really have to

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Speaker 1: repair during that time, and sometimes it takes a long

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Speaker 1: time to really get back on your feet either, especially

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Speaker 1: if the children not living in them particularly, that's quite

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Speaker 1: a difficult time for them as well. So it's really

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Speaker 1: important for us to think about how we can better

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Speaker 1: support men who are going through that transition. Because they're

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Speaker 1: also at higher risk of suicide attempts and very significant depression.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so do we see if we dive into

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Speaker 2: the data, do we see sex differences across the ages?

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Speaker 1: Well, because loneliness is also under reported, we don't know

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Speaker 1: if men are under reporting loneliness, but what we see

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Speaker 1: in big data sets when we do measure them in

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Speaker 1: kind of big metal analysis, there is no difference in

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Speaker 1: lone in men and women, but there might potentially be

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Speaker 1: a difference I think in social isolation. In the Australian

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Speaker 1: data sets that we're looking at, we do see that

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Speaker 1: men are more socially isolated, and you know, social isolation

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Speaker 1: could then lead to more loneliness down the track. So

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Speaker 1: it's really important I think, just in terms of thinking

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Speaker 1: about men being at risk of that more being by

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Speaker 1: themselves and not reaching out again. You know, men could

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Speaker 1: be more at recent that sense because they are they

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Speaker 1: are after all, more socially isolated.

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Speaker 2: And is there any indicators about why that would be,

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Speaker 2: not that men are more generally on the whole, Why

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Speaker 2: we're more socially isolated than women? Is it environmental? Is

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Speaker 2: it the fact that men are as good as making friends?

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Speaker 2: Is it businesses for what is it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you might not find the same trends in

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Speaker 1: other samples, just to flag as well. In this particular study,

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Speaker 1: we did not follow up, but that was I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that, you know, if they're not reporting more loneliness,

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Speaker 1: are they under reporting loneliness because there's no difference when

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Speaker 1: we look at loneliness, but we are more likely to

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Speaker 1: hear that there's a difference in terms of the amount

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Speaker 1: of social contact that they have with other people. Could

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Speaker 1: be again a gender difference in the way we relate

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Speaker 1: to people. We're not really sure. We haven't looked at

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Speaker 1: whether that particular sample, for example, you know, are more

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Speaker 1: likely to you know, be saying financial distress because we

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Speaker 1: you know, that's also another element that kind of is

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Speaker 1: very important and critical to understanding loneliness and social isolation.

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Speaker 2: M yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. It's a

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Speaker 2: it's a complex thing. And then let's talk about COVID.

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Speaker 2: You've already said you haven't really seen anything because you

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Speaker 2: haven't been studying anything long enough yet since COVID and

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Speaker 2: being able to look at pre and post I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to ask you to guess here.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're you're pretty close to all of this.

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Speaker 3: What's your gut feel.

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Speaker 2: You're not putting your professional reputation on the line, it's

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Speaker 2: just a gut feel, you know.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to deny that. I think more people

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Speaker 1: that report higher levels of loneliness during COVID, especially if

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Speaker 1: you're in Melbourne, you really have the social distance in

401
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Speaker 1: a very very rigid way, which is something that I

402
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Speaker 1: try not to to think about. Has a bit of trauma,

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Speaker 1: I think for everyone. And I think what we saw

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Speaker 1: was blips of high levels of loneliness, but as things

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Speaker 1: a kind of have eased back and kind of we've

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Speaker 1: kind of gone back to kind of some level of normalcy.

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Speaker 1: I think that people have this baseline that they just

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Speaker 1: kind of reset and kind of go to where they

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Speaker 1: were before. So it's almost like a slightly more you know,

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Speaker 1: we see shots in these sorts of experiences when we

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Speaker 1: have an external event and then we all kind of

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Speaker 1: slightly do a reset. I think that's kind of we

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Speaker 1: see similar trends in happiness. I think as well, you

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Speaker 1: know that we kind of kind of go back to

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Speaker 1: our baseline. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, And I do have to

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Speaker 1: say though that you know, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: external factors. This is not always about the person's internal baseline,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of external factors that can keep

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Speaker 1: someone high in loneliness or feel persistently lonely. So once

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Speaker 1: they become lonely, they stay lonely, and they are things

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Speaker 1: that they often can't control. So in inside, the amount

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Speaker 1: of resources they have, like financial resources are huge, is

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Speaker 1: a huge factor. The way the amount of money they

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Speaker 1: have to be able to interact with people or to

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Speaker 1: form meaningful relationships. The less money you have, the more

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Speaker 1: likely you are going to be lonely. In large data

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Speaker 1: sets that we see across the world, things like your

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Speaker 1: socioeconomic status, employment levels, all those kind of big macro factors.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you have a chronic disease, you know

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Speaker 1: you're more likely to also be lonely because you're probably

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Speaker 1: spending a lot of time managing your disease. You don't

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Speaker 1: have the luxury of you know, being able to.

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Speaker 2: And it's yeah, and I think it's probably inhibiting your

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Speaker 2: social activities, right, if you've got significant growing disease, can

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Speaker 2: I can I can see how all of those things

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Speaker 2: would play into it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and mental health of course as well.

438
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, and then it becomes it's

439
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: kind of almost like a self fulfilling prophecy. I would

440
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: imagine with mental health, whether it's social anxiety or depression,

441
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 2: that then you know, I don't feel like actually going

442
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: out and making friends, and that exacerbates the situation.

443
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is very common within with people with

444
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: mental ill health. But what we call the cognition of

445
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: loneliness even in people without mental ill health is people

446
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: who lonely tend to, without realizing, unconsciously survey the environment

447
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: in a much more threatening way. So I experienced my

448
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: environment in a kind of more heightened state, you know,

449
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: it's kind of much more hyper vigilant state. This is

450
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: really based on a lot of social science and social

451
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: imaging studies where they kind of scan their brains.

452
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 3: Are people alone, Michelle? Do they have in large to

453
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 3: make the list?

454
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: So I can't remember for the book from the back

455
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: of mind with the studies that they're they're doing, but

456
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: I think what they what they're really determining when they

457
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: look at the imaging studies is that they're just much

458
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: more hyper vigilance. So it's possibly that and when they're

459
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: scanning what they're doing is they want. So they're saying

460
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: I want to connect, So they're actually going unconsciously they're

461
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: saying I want to but their brain is acting in

462
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: a completely different way. And so what happens is that

463
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: they actually do kind of much more avoided behaviors. So

464
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: they're not looking at because you know it's threatening material

465
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: not you don't want to face it. You're you're basically

466
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: trying to avoid it. So you're not looking at people

467
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: and interacting. You're less likely to say yes to things,

468
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: You're less cooperative because you're really trying to protect yourself.

469
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: You spend a lot of time unconsciously trying to protect

470
00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 1: yourself from being rejected basically, And of course you know

471
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: if I if you and I have a conversation and

472
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: you know I'm acting that way, you're thinking what's going

473
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: on with Michelle? Like why she why she's so closed off?

474
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: Oh maybe she just needs space. Maybe I would just

475
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: want ask her to have a check. Then you know

476
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: she's I'm going to be annoying her. And so when

477
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: you do that, then it just reinforces everything again, it

478
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: just reinforces all. You know, Paul doesn't have time for me.

479
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: I'm no good He just you know, maybe I don't

480
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: want to be a burdened him, so I wouldn't ask you.

481
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: It just goes round and round and round, you know.

482
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the work as well as

483
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: is that when your lonliness is triggered, how do we

484
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: kind of get out of this vicious cycle.

485
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 2: I think that that is a huge component to it.

486
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: Having read a lot of the research on imaging studies

487
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 2: of people who are chronically stressed, whether it's from workplace

488
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: or other stressors, we do see an annoledge to migdalah.

489
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: We see hyper vigilance to threat, right.

490
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what you're describing, and a negativity bias.

491
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: And I think this is really important for our listeners

492
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: to understand, is that with that stress, whether that stress

493
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: has been brought on by workplace stress or the stress

494
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: of loneliness, that there does develop this hypervigilance that is

495
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 2: a protective mechanism. It's an inbuilt protective mechanism to stress

496
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: and threat that makes our brains become automatically more negative.

497
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 3: That's right.

498
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 2: Whenever we're looking around it and as you say, wanting

499
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: to then protect. And then I know from from looking

500
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: at those studies that when somebody has a brain that

501
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: has been chronically stressed, when they see fiaces, you know,

502
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: the classic facial recognition, they see much more anger and

503
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: much more saddness than people.

504
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: Even if it's neutral, even if it's a neutral.

505
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 3: Face, even if it's neutral, right, they will.

506
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: Perceive it as a negative face. So you're absolutely right.

507
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 1: I think I think it's it's worthwhile noting this is

508
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: not consciously done by the person who feels lonely. I

509
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: think often they don't recognize you can't. You don't know

510
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: your brain's going, you know, in the hypervision state. But

511
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: we're doing this really in the effort to protect ourselves simply,

512
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: you know, we're not really trying to make our own

513
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: lives difficult, because nobody really wants to feel lonely. But

514
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: we just get into this mode. And so how do

515
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: we get out of this mode? How do we start

516
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: increasing our awareness that this is what we're doing. And

517
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: most of the treatments so far and the ones that

518
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: have been evaluated, have always been kind of looking at

519
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 1: kind of more cognitive behavior there being kind of mode,

520
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: and the problem with those ones is that the is

521
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: always putting it back on the person who's lonely. But

522
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: I think that if we want the holistic solution, we

523
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: really need to think of solutions across different things, not

524
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: just the person who's who's lonely, but also the people

525
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: who are trying to help our organizations in which we work,

526
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: in our policies that affect where we live, work and play. Like,

527
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: you know, the interventions and solutions are threaded across different

528
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: kinds of platforms, not just the individual themselves.

529
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

530
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and but let's come back to that, to that,

531
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 2: because I think it is worthwhile exploring a little bit more.

532
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: But it's just it is a very non scientific term, right,

533
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: But when when someone is to pressed or anxious or

534
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: feeling lonely and they're in a social circumstance and that

535
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: hypervigilance that you talked about in a negativity bias, they

536
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: just give off a vibe that is not very welcoming.

537
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: And I've had this conversation with my kids where they've

538
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: talked about a certain individual just being rude, or we've

539
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: thought that that certain friends of our kids are rude,

540
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: and then we actually realize they're just shy, right, And

541
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: now a lot of shyness is social anxiety, right, That

542
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: whole thing that when you're shy or you have negative

543
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: body langugeuage, people are less likely to go and interact

544
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: with you, right, So it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy.

545
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: Whereas you look at someone who's happy and outgoing, I

546
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: like to just talk about it, and it's not scientific,

547
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: but it's their their energy and the vibe that they're

548
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: giving off is much more attractive to others than somebody

549
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: who's feeling lonely or depressed or sad that they're just

550
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: not giving off the right vibes that are welcoming for

551
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: other people.

552
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: And Paul, you're even pointing out some micro things that

553
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: they don't know they're doing. You know, I gaze is

554
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: so important, but when you have social anxiety or when

555
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: you are lonely, your I gaze is poorer, and so

556
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: you're really sending signals to people you know, don't interact

557
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: with me, because you know you're already in that protective mode. Yeah,

558
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: and it's so minor, but it makes a difference because

559
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: people really take your cues.

560
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: So absolutely, I think this is huge.

561
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: In fact, you just reminded me, Michelle, I was doing

562
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: some work with a business recently. It's a very large business,

563
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: and most of the people, just because of the nature

564
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: of the work, tend to be introverts. And I was

565
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: having a conversation with the director of one of those things,

566
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: who's not an introvert at all, and they come from

567
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: a completely different sphere of work, and they said to me,

568
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: they said that when they joined, they noticed how many

569
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: introverts there was. And somebody said to them, you know

570
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 2: you're talking to an extrovert in this business if they

571
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: look at your shoes when you're talking to them and

572
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: not their shoes.

573
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: Wat.

574
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: But it's that whole thing that when people are introverted

575
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: slash shy slash the press slash, you know, that social

576
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: isolation that much less. I gez and looking down. It's

577
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: just sending out signals to the other person, whether right

578
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: or wrong. But the signals incoming to the other person

579
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: is don't interact with you.

580
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 3: I'm not interested. I don't want to interact with you.

581
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: Yes. And on top of that, I think that often

582
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: when the person who's lonely does want to reach out,

583
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: the other person just doesn't know how to respond. They

584
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: don't know how to make it safe, and sometimes they

585
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: take it personally like what do you mean by your

586
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: lonely we're friends, What does it say about our relationship?

587
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: They take it personally. It's not about that. It's not

588
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: about that, you know, and loneliness of social anxiety are

589
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: what we call bad partners in crime. You know. We

590
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: do know from large data sets is that if you're lonely,

591
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: you're more likely to be socially anxious. But if you're

592
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: socially anxious in the earlier time, you're more likely to

593
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: be lonely six months down the line.

594
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and good luck getting out of loneliness if you

595
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: have social life anxiety, right, unless you have really strong

596
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: support groups around you, I would imagine, and you know.

597
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: People don't realize this, but social anxiety is one of

598
00:32:54,560 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: the earliest onsets of mental health difficulties that anybody would have,

599
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: but the latest time to seek treatment so only on.

600
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: So I'm talking about six seven years old, where kids

601
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: start to go to primary school and they start having

602
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: social anxiety. And what you will see I thinks at

603
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: school school refusal, separation anxiety. You see displayed out that

604
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: way because cognitively they haven't quite pieced that together. But

605
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: there was average time to get treatment for social anxiety

606
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: is when you are actually going to university.

607
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: Oh wow, so they have they have up to a

608
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: decade where they're having this condition that is not being

609
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: managed dealt with help.

610
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: Well, you know, what they have done is many people

611
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: social anxiety, which by the way, all of us have

612
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: social anxieties. Just we're talking about the clinical levels of

613
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: social anxiety. We know how to live our lives in

614
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: a way that we avoid those socially anxious situations. And

615
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: I've actually seen adults in my clinic who have avoided

616
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: giving talks, avoided any sort of presentations, you know, to

617
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: they they come and see me because they have to

618
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: do a work presentation. They can't get out of it,

619
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 1: you know. And some of these people have lived their

620
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: lives in such a way that have avoided every possible

621
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: social situation which puts them on the spotlight. They know

622
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: how to do it. They got away of it, but

623
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: at some point they just can't get away of it,

624
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: and that's when they come to the clinics to see me.

625
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: So it's just interesting to know that a lot of

626
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: people were able to kind of navigate and build their

627
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: lives in such a way that's safe for them for

628
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: a very long time.

629
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, very interesting.

630
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 2: Let's talk about cognitive biases in psycho pathology, because you

631
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: just mentioned some of the cognitive stuff and I know

632
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: you have studied these cognitive biases. Talk about, first of all,

633
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: what do you mean by cognitive biases in psycho pathology?

634
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: That really drew my eye, and then we can dig

635
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 2: into it a little bit.

636
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I put my clinical psychologists had on an

637
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: traditional kind of cognitive being with therapy. What we're really

638
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: saying is basically our adaptive cognitions of how we see ourselves, the.

639
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 3: World, others.

640
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 1: And it's really classified under about ten to twelve kind

641
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: of different kind of thinking errors that we have, just

642
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: to name a few, you know, black and white thinking.

643
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: There's no gray at all. It's like it's either I'm

644
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: a success or a failure. There's absolutely nothing in between,

645
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: you know, all catastrophizing, you know, just because he said

646
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: this about me, it must be really bad, you know,

647
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: and so all filtered thinking. You know, there's one more,

648
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: but filtered thinking is that we always see things only

649
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: through the negative lens, and we're only picking up all

650
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: the negative stuff. And the issues with cognitive biases or

651
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: thinking errors as I like to call them, to kind

652
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: of make it more colloquial, is that they really make

653
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: us feel negative, and then we act in ways that

654
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: respond to those. Basically, we're trying to find information to

655
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: fit that thinking bias, and they stem from beliefs about

656
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: ourselves or sometimes some people might call them schemers. You

657
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: know that we need to hold truth. So, for example,

658
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: if I have a belief system that I am a

659
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: failure for whatever reason, I believe that I'm always going

660
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: to be a failure. I'm going to fail at something,

661
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: all my thinking errors are going to be very consistent

662
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: with I am a failure, which is, oh, I did

663
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: this right, but I don't know if I really did

664
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: this right. Maybe it's a bit shit and someone's going

665
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: to pick up that error, so that would be a

666
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: thinking error.

667
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 3: That's right.

668
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: It's my belief that I am a failure, you know, so,

669
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: and I feel bad, you know, and then I will

670
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: always kind of unless I challenge myself, I will always

671
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: just go round and around. And if I don't address

672
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: that belief system, it's always just going to podcut its

673
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: ugly head and say hey here I am so.

674
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 4: As psychologists, what we're really trying to do is to

675
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 4: correct their belief systems because you know, again a blieve

676
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 4: system or someone who's lonely might be I'm not worthy

677
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 4: of friendships, you.

678
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: Know, and all their thinking errors are just similar to that.

679
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think Daniel Goldman's work was this whole

680
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: idea that self talk drives yourself image, which has your performance,

681
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: which then affects yourself talk. So with with your example

682
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: of that, and I often talk about this is that

683
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 2: people thinking oh, I'm not good enough. That affects their

684
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: performance and then sorry, that affects their self worth, right,

685
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: and then that self worth affects their performance, and then

686
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: their bringin goes say told you we're ship, and it

687
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: becomes a self fulfilling Were always try.

688
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: To find information to our belief We will always do

689
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: that because if we if we find information that contradicts

690
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: our beliefs, it feels uncomfortable, it's weird, It's like, oh,

691
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: this doesn't fit right. And an example is if if

692
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: I am a fani and someone praises me, I'll be like,

693
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? No, it did a look

694
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: good job. No, it's horrible. What are you talking about?

695
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: You know, you just straight away you push it.

696
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that person's that just that person's just trying to

697
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: be nice to me and they're you know, it's just

698
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: it's just a fruit.

699
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

700
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: You know, we get we get into the three pays

701
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,479
Speaker 2: as well here, don't we the permanence previous of? And

702
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: what's the other one? Permanent's previous of? Anyway? What I

703
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 2: think of the other one?

704
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 3: Do you know what?

705
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: As you were talking about those cognitive biases, it reminds

706
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: me of a brilliant quote from Amate Gotswami, who is

707
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: an astrophysicist and philosopher, and he said that we do

708
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: not view reality directly.

709
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: We view reality through the mirror of memory.

710
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: And it's that mirror of memory and the memories that

711
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: create these cognitive biases. And we're actually viewing reality through

712
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: this filter that's largely influenced by our past and these

713
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: belief systems.

714
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 3: Right, And I.

715
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 2: Think you very eloquently put out how that can then

716
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: just impact people and keep them trapped in certain situations.

717
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: And it's very similar to negative memories like trauma, you know,

718
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: And sometimes we wonder, what if you're only just go

719
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: and meet people and you'll be fine and trivialize it,

720
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: but actually maybe someone's got trauma, you know, and the

721
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 1: ben experience of people. We have bad memories of people

722
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: that expectation, like negative expectations or what might happen. It's

723
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: not that easy to go out and make a friend.

724
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 1: It's you know, you're trivializing it for them because this

725
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: person comes with layers or complexity that you probably don't

726
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: know anything about. So I think it oftenks people who

727
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 1: feel lonely when people say, oh, you're lonely, just do act.

728
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: It's not that easy for that person just.

729
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 3: To do that.

730
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like when someone's deeply depressed, just just go.

731
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 3: And do this and get on with it. So no,

732
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: I am Michell.

733
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 2: Look, I'm loving this conversation, but I'm aware of the

734
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: time constraints because you've got to be somewhere. So let's

735
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: talk about the sort of stuff that we can do

736
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: so in your coalition to end loneliness, which I highly

737
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: recommend that people go and look up.

738
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: We'll put all the links to at the end. But

739
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 3: what are some of the.

740
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 2: Things that people can do to either survive loneliness, such

741
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: a remedy loneliness? What are things that people can do themselves?

742
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 2: And what about how can other people be a more

743
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 2: aware of the cues and what can we do to

744
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: help people who are struggling a little bit.

745
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: So, starting from August fifth, what we will be releasing

746
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: is really a variety of different videos around people talking

747
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: about their experience. The reason why we're kind of really

748
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: showcasing the live experience is because we want people to

749
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: know that loneliness doesn't have a face, it doesn't look

750
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 1: like any particular person. That we all should feel lonely

751
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 1: at some point and we all manage it differently, and

752
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: to be able to hear and understand and normalize the

753
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: experience can sometimes be quite liberating for people who feel lonely.

754
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: And also if you're not feeling lonely, it doesn't matter,

755
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: because it's also about learning how you can help, but

756
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: also understanding it. At some point, you will have to

757
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: manage your own loneliness, you know, because that can have

758
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: and do us at any given time. And I think

759
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: it's important for us to educate ourselves first, because when

760
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: we actually understand what it is and what it's not,

761
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: we're more likely to take action and effective action. We're

762
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: more likely to understand what works for us and what

763
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: doesn't work for us. You know, to have those moments

764
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: of trying to work out you know, what kind of

765
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: resources you have, what are your preferences at the stage

766
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: of your life? You know, what can you do? What

767
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: do you do you not want to do? Kind of

768
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 1: taking those steps and reflecting so that you can actually

769
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: help yourself and manage it so that it doesn't become

770
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 1: a problem. And we need to think about the people

771
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: around us. You know, we don't We're not un social

772
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: species as I call it. You know, we are social

773
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: species that we will function with people around us and

774
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 1: people we care about. There will be people that feel lonely,

775
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: that the people that we care but will feel lonely

776
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: at some point. How do we have those conversations that

777
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 1: it is respectful, that is helpful to the person who

778
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: needs the help helpful ye, because often people who want

779
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: to help and very well intentioned might trivialize loneliness in

780
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 1: a way that makes people retreat more, makes people feel

781
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: more helpless. So we can start learning how to have

782
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: that conversation, you know, just people listening to this podcast

783
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: at the moment, how can we start having a healthier

784
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: language around the connection. How do we encourage people to

785
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: connect as opposed to withdraw because remember, we are really

786
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: working against a system that's silent in our brains. This

787
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: is not as easy as it sounds. So how do

788
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,439
Speaker 1: we make the environment safer for people to talk about

789
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: their loneliness in a way that they don't feel judged

790
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: or they don't feel like they're being demean or that

791
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: they're they're less worthy of you.

792
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is definitely great advice. I mean,

793
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 2: what springs to my mind when you were talking there

794
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: was abute and I often tell a story in when

795
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: I'm doing corporate talks. Was the Hanoi Hilton prison camp, Vietnam,

796
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: which was completely brutal, and some of those guys spent

797
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: three to four years in solitary confinement.

798
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 3: But they had this they had.

799
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 2: This thing called the tap code where they could tap

800
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: out the letters of the alphabet on the wall and

801
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 2: the pipes to communicate with each other. And I interviewed

802
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: the guy Lee Ellis, who spent five and a half

803
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: years in that prison camp, and he said it was

804
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: the tap code was the glue that held these guys

805
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: together that just you know, when you're I think their

806
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: leader said, when your brother is taken out of his

807
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: sale to be tortured. When he comes back, you get

808
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: on the wall, you tap to him, You tell him

809
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 2: that you love him, you tell him that you're here

810
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 2: for him.

811
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: And Lee told me that it.

812
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 2: Was just, you know, somebody tapping to them that actually

813
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: helped them to get through their darkest stars.

814
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 3: And it's very powerful.

815
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: And I always say to people, you know, if you've

816
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: got your own shit sorted, look out into your a

817
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 2: little corner of the universe and think to yourself, who

818
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 2: could use the tap coat?

819
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: Right?

820
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: But also equally, if you're struggling, is trying to find

821
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: the courage to reach out to someone.

822
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 1: That's right.

823
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 2: And I think a really important thing is that people

824
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: who are lonely or depressed, or of some sort of

825
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: mental health issue, they often don't reach out because they

826
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: think they're going to be a burden. And what we

827
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: now know is that when someone helps somebody else, that

828
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: it activates fingered chemicals in their brain. Right, And so

829
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: certain people, you're not being a burden. You're just giving

830
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: somebody an opportunity to improve their mental health. That's exactly

831
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: connecting and helping you, right.

832
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, I also say don't deprive someone else for

833
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: help because they want to help, you know, so it's

834
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: actually an opportunity for the person that's the helper as well. Yeah,

835
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: but it doesn't Again, when we're talking about all of

836
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: these things, it's about, you know, knowing that you can

837
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: be on either end of the spectrum at any given time.

838
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: I could need to help at some point and I

839
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: will be to help at some point, So those rules

840
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 1: change all the time.

841
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

842
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: And look, there's a beautiful word that comes from Japanese

843
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: psychology and they talk a lot about anxiety and social anxiety,

844
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: and it's called arugamama and it basically means with things

845
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: as they are, what needs to be done, and it's

846
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: really it's a very aligned with act which I'm sure

847
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: you're familiar with, accept as commitment therapy, and it's basically

848
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 2: taking action that is aligned with your values that's going

849
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 2: to take you towards the person that you actually want

850
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: to be. And you know, this stuff isn't easy. But

851
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 2: when people think deeply about their values and how sitting

852
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 2: with the discomfort is actually going to help them live

853
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: the life they want to be, I think it's helpful

854
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: in finding the courage to take those steps. Absolutely, So, Michelle,

855
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: where can people go to to find out more. So,

856
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: I know you've got a couple of websites, but where's

857
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 2: the best place to point people to where they can

858
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: get resources?

859
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: So Loadingess Awareness Week dot com dot au is one,

860
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: but also ending Loness Together dot com dot au is

861
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: another as well. So being able to find lots of

862
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: resources and support. We have videos and tip sheets and

863
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: resources for people who are interested in kind of much more,

864
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: you know, the scientific stuff or the kind of policy recommendations.

865
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: We also have lots of things like white papers as

866
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: well that they can kind of, you know, understand what's

867
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: the latest, uh in terms of how people are thinking

868
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: about this issue, both from a scientific point of view

869
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: but also a policy point of view. So lots of

870
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: different resources, and you know, if people are keen to

871
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: share their stories around loneliness, they can definitely submit a

872
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: story about this as well through a portal and that

873
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: those sorts of things are available from the fifth of August.

874
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: Okay, brilliant, And so I'd encourage all the listeners to

875
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: go and jump on to it to look at and

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00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: loneliness and then Loneliness Awareness Week was it dot com

877
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: dot com?

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00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: Do you so loneliness a Aweness Week is Awenness weeak

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00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: dot com dot au and ending loneliness dot com dot you.

880
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome and so yeah, this podcast is coming hot

881
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: on the heels of a happiness podcast, So just real

882
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: encouragement from people they will have heard about the importance

883
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: of social connection in terms of that happiness thing. So

884
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 2: I think, you know, getting back to the Hanoi Hilton analogy.

885
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 3: No matter what side of the wall you're on.

886
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: Whether you're struggling or whether you're you're okay, it is

887
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: about going and getting on the wall and looking at

888
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: those resources and just seeing what.

889
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 3: You can do.

890
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me pause a lovely conversation to

891
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: kind of yeah talk about loneliness and making sure that

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00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: we set the conversation straight.

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00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 3: Awesome. Thanks Michelle, and keep doing your awesome work.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.