WEBVTT - Is the Israeli President's visit a "bad mistake"?

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<v Speaker 1>Last night as well, I spoke with President Herzog of Israel.

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<v Speaker 1>President Herzog and I have known each other for a

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<v Speaker 1>long period of time, and it was an opportunity for

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<v Speaker 1>the President to express his condolences to the victims here,

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<v Speaker 1>but also to Australia as a nation.

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<v Speaker 2>In the wake of the Bondai terror attack, the Prime

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<v Speaker 2>Minister invited Israeli President Isaac Herzog to Australia, a move

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<v Speaker 2>framed as an act of solidarity with the Jewish community.

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<v Speaker 1>For the President to visit Australia in early twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>six to honor and remember victims of the Bondai anti

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<v Speaker 1>Semitic terrorist attack and provide support for Jewish Australians and

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian Jewish community at this time.

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<v Speaker 2>But that visit, which begins on Sunday, is now sparking criticism,

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<v Speaker 2>including from within the government, and now i'm the streets

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<v Speaker 2>with a series of protests planned across the country. Supporters

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<v Speaker 2>of the visit say Herzog's presence will bring comfort to

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<v Speaker 2>greeting families, but critics argue it risks deepening divides, especially

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<v Speaker 2>as Israel faces genocide allegations at the International Court of

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<v Speaker 2>justice with Herzog's own statements cited in evidence. I'm Daniel

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<v Speaker 2>James and you're listening to seven am today Principal lawyer

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<v Speaker 2>at Maurice Blackburn Josh Bornstein on the visit that's raising

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<v Speaker 2>tensions and dividing communities and whether those divisions could ever

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<v Speaker 2>be mended. It's Friday, February sixth Josh, thanks so much

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<v Speaker 2>for joining us. The Alberdezi government has invited Israeli President

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<v Speaker 2>Isaac Herdzog. Here is a silent support for Jewish Australians

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<v Speaker 2>following the Bondai massacre. There are those that see this

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<v Speaker 2>visit as an act of solidarity. It's been welcomed by

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<v Speaker 2>families of the victims, as well as groups like the

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<v Speaker 2>Australia Israel and Jewish Affairs Council and the Executive Council

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<v Speaker 2>of Australian Jury.

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<v Speaker 3>He's the head of state, he's not a political figure,

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<v Speaker 3>and his role is predominant to provide comfort and solidarity

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<v Speaker 3>with the people who were caught up in that horrific

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<v Speaker 3>tragedy of Bondah Beach.

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<v Speaker 2>So why do you oppose it?

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's a very bad idea for a number

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<v Speaker 4>of reasons. Israel is facing the most serious charges that

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<v Speaker 4>can be instituted under international law of genocide before the

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<v Speaker 4>International Court of Justice. Those charges, they rely on a

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<v Speaker 4>number of statements of Israeli politicians, but also of President Herzog,

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<v Speaker 4>which on their face can be interpreted as inciting genocide

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<v Speaker 4>by arguing that the Hamas attack in October twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 4>three was in fact the responsibility of the entire Palestinian

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<v Speaker 4>population in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 2>Can we talk a little bit more about what Hertzoke

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<v Speaker 2>has saidled done specifically that is seen as so problematic.

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<v Speaker 4>What he said in the aftermath of seven October twenty

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<v Speaker 4>twenty three was, to quote him, it's an entire nation

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<v Speaker 4>out there that is responsible.

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<v Speaker 5>It's not true, this ractoric about civilians not where we're

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<v Speaker 5>not aware, not involved, It's absolutely not true. They could

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<v Speaker 5>have risen up, they could have fought against that evil

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<v Speaker 5>regime which took over Gaza in Akudeta.

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<v Speaker 4>Now those statements have already been considered by the International

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<v Speaker 4>Court of Justice when it ordered Israel to take all

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<v Speaker 4>measures within its power to prevent genocide. They did that

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<v Speaker 4>in January twenty twenty four. In September last year, a

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<v Speaker 4>human Rights Council Commission of Inquiry found that Herzog's statement

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<v Speaker 4>did constitute incitement of genocide. It's not a binding decision,

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<v Speaker 4>but nevertheless it's important.

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<v Speaker 6>On incitement to genocide. The commission concludes that many Israeli

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<v Speaker 6>political and military leaders, including President is that Hertzog, Prime

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<v Speaker 6>Minister Benjamin Nataniao, and then Defense Minister jo Avgarland had

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<v Speaker 6>incited the commission of genocide and that Israeli authorities have

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<v Speaker 6>failed to check action against them to punish this incitement.

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<v Speaker 4>So not only is Israel facing very serious charges, the

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<v Speaker 4>most serious charges you can levy against the country, but

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<v Speaker 4>President Herzog is himself facing very very serious allegations. And

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<v Speaker 4>to invite him to Australia, albeit in the horrific aftermath

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<v Speaker 4>of the atrocity in Bondi, is to try and ask

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<v Speaker 4>the government and everybody in Australia to pretend that the

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<v Speaker 4>actions of Israel haven't happened. And you're sending a very

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<v Speaker 4>confused set of signals by inviting them here at this moment,

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<v Speaker 4>while at the same time saying to the Australian people,

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<v Speaker 4>as Prime Minister Albanzi has done repeatedly, we value social cohesion.

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<v Speaker 4>We respect an international rules order and the international law.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a complete mess and a very bad mistake

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<v Speaker 4>by the Albenese government.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's go to that, Josh, I mean an overwhelming majority

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<v Speaker 2>of Jewish Australians feel a strong connection with Israel. So

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<v Speaker 2>what do you say to that argument that in the

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<v Speaker 2>wake of the Bondai massacres, politics should be set aside

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<v Speaker 2>so that the leader can show their respect for the

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<v Speaker 2>victims and families of the bond Di massacre.

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<v Speaker 4>Nothing about this dispute and this conflict can depoliticized. We've

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<v Speaker 4>seen as soon as the Bondai massacre occurred sordied political

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<v Speaker 4>maneuvering right throughout the political system. It is already clear

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<v Speaker 4>that this visit has been politicized. Those organizations that urge

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<v Speaker 4>the government to invite Herzog here have seized on the

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<v Speaker 4>acceptance of that invitation and invitation extended to Herzog to

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<v Speaker 4>argue that Australia should use the opportunity to reset its

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<v Speaker 4>relationship with Israel. There's going to be photo opportunities with

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<v Speaker 4>the Governor General, with the Prime Minister, god knows what else.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a very bad mistake. The Jewish community is

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<v Speaker 4>not a monolith in Australia anywhere else. There are many

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<v Speaker 4>different perspectives on Israel. Within the Jewish community. There are

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<v Speaker 4>those who are horrified at what has become of Israel.

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<v Speaker 4>There are those who are anti Zionist, so those a

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<v Speaker 4>pro Zionist. At the moment, the voices of the fanatical

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<v Speaker 4>pro Israel lobby are drowning out the rest and producing

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<v Speaker 4>very bizarre outcomes which don't help social cohesion, which actually

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<v Speaker 4>harm it, and which don't help the fight against anti

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<v Speaker 4>Semitism actually harm it. What's clearly driven the rise in

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<v Speaker 4>anti Semitism in the last two years are two things.

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<v Speaker 4>One is the mistreatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli

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<v Speaker 4>state that has caused an anti Semitic backlash in Australia

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<v Speaker 4>and elsewhere. But also the confusion and conflation of Jewish

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<v Speaker 4>identity with Israel. I'm Jewish, but I don't have any

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<v Speaker 4>strong connection with Israel. When you confuse those two things,

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<v Speaker 4>you end up holding all Jewish people responsible. If you

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<v Speaker 4>want revenge for what's going on in Gaza, as unfortunately

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<v Speaker 4>some people will ultimately want to pursue. Then if you

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<v Speaker 4>think that all Australian Jews somehow represent Israel that endangers

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<v Speaker 4>all Australian Jews. There are a range of different views

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<v Speaker 4>within the Jewish community and we should not confuse or

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<v Speaker 4>deceive people into thinking being Jewish in Australia is the

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<v Speaker 4>same as being rapidly pro Israel. It's not.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up. How the visit will test the PM's new

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<v Speaker 2>hate speech laws, Josh. The Albinezer government, as you've alluded to,

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<v Speaker 2>is facing pressure to rescind this invitation from the Grange,

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<v Speaker 2>from some independence and even from inside their own party.

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<v Speaker 2>Withinps like Edie Usick are.

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<v Speaker 7>To be completely frank and very uncomfortable with it. I

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<v Speaker 7>find it hard to reconcile the images I've seen of

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<v Speaker 7>him signing bombs that were then dropped on Palestinian homes,

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<v Speaker 7>and the fact that the ICJ has called out some

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<v Speaker 7>of his statements as indicating collective responsibility of Palestinians.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you make of Albaniz's response to the pressure

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<v Speaker 2>that is mounted over time.

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<v Speaker 4>Look, the Prime Minister and the government will emphasize the

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<v Speaker 4>horror of Bondai, and I agree no one can dispute

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<v Speaker 4>what happened in Bondai was anything other than a horrific atrocity.

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<v Speaker 2>It sickened me.

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<v Speaker 4>It sickened me for days. How we grieve about it

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<v Speaker 4>has already become a divisive political issue because we cannot

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<v Speaker 4>divorce the appropriate grieving for that horror from the horror

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<v Speaker 4>that's been inflicted by the Israeli state on the Palestinians

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<v Speaker 4>and which continues day in day out.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think that the government had with on the

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<v Speaker 2>invitation that that could have potentially done more to undermine

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<v Speaker 2>unity and social cohesion.

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<v Speaker 4>I actually think that a majority of Australian people are

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<v Speaker 4>horrified at what has become of Israel and what Israel

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<v Speaker 4>has done and is doing. There's no doubt any action

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<v Speaker 4>of the government in this situation where they've invited President

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<v Speaker 4>Herzog to Australia. Were he to be disinvited, that would

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<v Speaker 4>be contentious, But I think a majority of Australians might

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<v Speaker 4>think differently and might.

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<v Speaker 2>Support it, Josh. The government has also just passed new

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<v Speaker 2>hate speech laws aimed at criminalizing incitement, and at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time is hosting a leader whose statements have been

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<v Speaker 2>citing in international proceedings as evidence of incitement, allegations that

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<v Speaker 2>he strongly denies. How do you square those two things.

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<v Speaker 4>You can't square them. You can't square them. You can't

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<v Speaker 4>on the one hand, say we are a government committed

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<v Speaker 4>to stamping out in sight of racial hatred, incitement of genocide,

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<v Speaker 4>incitement of violence on the basis of race, and on

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<v Speaker 4>the other hand, welcome someone into Australia who is accused

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<v Speaker 4>of that at the very highest levels in the world.

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<v Speaker 4>They're just irreconcilable. So Anthony Albaneze is on some very

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<v Speaker 4>positive things and said some very positive things about the

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<v Speaker 4>need for social cohesion, the need for stronger laws about

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<v Speaker 4>inciting racial hatred and violence and so on, the need

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<v Speaker 4>for respect for international law, the rule of law, for

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<v Speaker 4>a rules based global order.

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<v Speaker 1>If we allow any nation to imagine itself outside the

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<v Speaker 1>rules more above them, then the sovereignty of every nation

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<v Speaker 1>is eroded.

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<v Speaker 4>Read But by this invitation, he's undermined all of those messages,

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<v Speaker 4>which then I think undermines people's trust and faith in

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<v Speaker 4>him and his government. So it's a really bad mistake

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<v Speaker 4>that I think is not going to play well during

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<v Speaker 4>this visit and not going to play well after this visit.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So if we talk about the visit finally, Josh,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it's too late to call the visit off. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>hurtzock will fly in, the protests will go off around

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<v Speaker 2>the country. So where does that leave us? How do

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<v Speaker 2>we begin to heal some of those wounds within the

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish community and the nation more broadly when it.

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<v Speaker 4>Comes to all of this, Look, if people thought there

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<v Speaker 4>was hope for Palestinian equality, for dignity, then I suspect

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<v Speaker 4>the rise in anti Semitism or the antisemitic problem we

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<v Speaker 4>face would diminish, if not disappear. It never completely goes,

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<v Speaker 4>but it would substantially diminish, And so all of our

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<v Speaker 4>efforts as a nation should be directed to pressuring Israel

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<v Speaker 4>to cease its barrant conduct and to moving international policy

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<v Speaker 4>towards supporting equality for Palestinians. Secondly, we need to educate

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<v Speaker 4>the Australian public about the difference between being Jewish and

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<v Speaker 4>the state of Israel, so that you don't get people

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<v Speaker 4>thinking that I can retaliate against Israel's mistreatment by punishing

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<v Speaker 4>Jewish people, either in France or Germany, or Canada or Australia.

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<v Speaker 4>At some point we're going to need to have civilized discussion.

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<v Speaker 4>Even for someone who's Jewish and who criticize the state

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<v Speaker 4>of israel I receive an extraordinary amount of florid abuse

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<v Speaker 4>from pro israel fanatics. It's not possible for me to

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<v Speaker 4>have a dialogue with those people because they're abusive. But

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<v Speaker 4>at some point we need to be able to foster

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<v Speaker 4>a culture where we can have differences of opinion and

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<v Speaker 4>not have such abuse and vitriol flying around. This is

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<v Speaker 4>not just a problem in this context, but it's a

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<v Speaker 4>broader problem on social media in other realms of our

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<v Speaker 4>life now, where polarization, threats of violence, a retreat from

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<v Speaker 4>the democratic discourse and norms is underway, and that's a

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<v Speaker 4>huge challenge, not just for Australia but globally. But at

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<v Speaker 4>some point we need to try and move towards a

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<v Speaker 4>better understanding about how to navigate our differences.

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<v Speaker 2>Josh, thank you so much for joining seven AM.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, the Western Australian authorities have confirmed the targeting of

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<v Speaker 2>an Invasion Day rally in per Center is now being

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<v Speaker 2>treated as a terrorism event. An explosive device which did

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<v Speaker 2>not detonate, was allegedly thrown into a crowd of Indigenous people,

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<v Speaker 2>families and supporters gathering in per CBD on January twenty six,

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<v Speaker 2>a thirty one year old man was previously charged with

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<v Speaker 2>making or possessing an explosive and committing an act with

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<v Speaker 2>intent to cause harm. The man will now be charged

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<v Speaker 2>with one count of engaging in a terrorist act, the

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<v Speaker 2>first time the charge has been laid in the state,

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<v Speaker 2>and draft legislation has been introduced into Federal Parliament to

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<v Speaker 2>permanently establish the National Commissioner for First Nation's Children. The

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<v Speaker 2>bill formalizes the appointment of sioue An Hunter as the

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<v Speaker 2>full time National Commissioner for Aboriginal Terrest Trail Under young People,

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<v Speaker 2>First Nation's children are twenty seven times more likely to

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<v Speaker 2>be in use detention than non Indigenous children and ten

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<v Speaker 2>times more likely to be in out of home care.

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<v Speaker 2>The government will also release as late as Closing the

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<v Speaker 2>Gap Report next week. You've been listening to seven AM.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll be back tomorrow