Speaker 1: Last night as well, I spoke with President Herzog of Israel.
Speaker 1: President Herzog and I have known each other for a
Speaker 1: long period of time, and it was an opportunity for
Speaker 1: the President to express his condolences to the victims here,
Speaker 1: but also to Australia as a nation.
Speaker 2: In the wake of the Bondai terror attack, the Prime
Speaker 2: Minister invited Israeli President Isaac Herzog to Australia, a move
Speaker 2: framed as an act of solidarity with the Jewish community.
Speaker 1: For the President to visit Australia in early twenty twenty
Speaker 1: six to honor and remember victims of the Bondai anti
Speaker 1: Semitic terrorist attack and provide support for Jewish Australians and
Speaker 1: the Australian Jewish community at this time.
Speaker 2: But that visit, which begins on Sunday, is now sparking criticism,
Speaker 2: including from within the government, and now i'm the streets
Speaker 2: with a series of protests planned across the country. Supporters
Speaker 2: of the visit say Herzog's presence will bring comfort to
Speaker 2: greeting families, but critics argue it risks deepening divides, especially
Speaker 2: as Israel faces genocide allegations at the International Court of
Speaker 2: justice with Herzog's own statements cited in evidence. I'm Daniel
Speaker 2: James and you're listening to seven am today Principal lawyer
Speaker 2: at Maurice Blackburn Josh Bornstein on the visit that's raising
Speaker 2: tensions and dividing communities and whether those divisions could ever
Speaker 2: be mended. It's Friday, February sixth Josh, thanks so much
Speaker 2: for joining us. The Alberdezi government has invited Israeli President
Speaker 2: Isaac Herdzog. Here is a silent support for Jewish Australians
Speaker 2: following the Bondai massacre. There are those that see this
Speaker 2: visit as an act of solidarity. It's been welcomed by
Speaker 2: families of the victims, as well as groups like the
Speaker 2: Australia Israel and Jewish Affairs Council and the Executive Council
Speaker 2: of Australian Jury.
Speaker 3: He's the head of state, he's not a political figure,
Speaker 3: and his role is predominant to provide comfort and solidarity
Speaker 3: with the people who were caught up in that horrific
Speaker 3: tragedy of Bondah Beach.
Speaker 2: So why do you oppose it?
Speaker 4: I think it's a very bad idea for a number
Speaker 4: of reasons. Israel is facing the most serious charges that
Speaker 4: can be instituted under international law of genocide before the
Speaker 4: International Court of Justice. Those charges, they rely on a
Speaker 4: number of statements of Israeli politicians, but also of President Herzog,
Speaker 4: which on their face can be interpreted as inciting genocide
Speaker 4: by arguing that the Hamas attack in October twenty twenty
Speaker 4: three was in fact the responsibility of the entire Palestinian
Speaker 4: population in Gaza.
Speaker 2: Can we talk a little bit more about what Hertzoke
Speaker 2: has saidled done specifically that is seen as so problematic.
Speaker 4: What he said in the aftermath of seven October twenty
Speaker 4: twenty three was, to quote him, it's an entire nation
Speaker 4: out there that is responsible.
Speaker 5: It's not true, this ractoric about civilians not where we're
Speaker 5: not aware, not involved, It's absolutely not true. They could
Speaker 5: have risen up, they could have fought against that evil
Speaker 5: regime which took over Gaza in Akudeta.
Speaker 4: Now those statements have already been considered by the International
Speaker 4: Court of Justice when it ordered Israel to take all
Speaker 4: measures within its power to prevent genocide. They did that
Speaker 4: in January twenty twenty four. In September last year, a
Speaker 4: human Rights Council Commission of Inquiry found that Herzog's statement
Speaker 4: did constitute incitement of genocide. It's not a binding decision,
Speaker 4: but nevertheless it's important.
Speaker 6: On incitement to genocide. The commission concludes that many Israeli
Speaker 6: political and military leaders, including President is that Hertzog, Prime
Speaker 6: Minister Benjamin Nataniao, and then Defense Minister jo Avgarland had
Speaker 6: incited the commission of genocide and that Israeli authorities have
Speaker 6: failed to check action against them to punish this incitement.
Speaker 4: So not only is Israel facing very serious charges, the
Speaker 4: most serious charges you can levy against the country, but
Speaker 4: President Herzog is himself facing very very serious allegations. And
Speaker 4: to invite him to Australia, albeit in the horrific aftermath
Speaker 4: of the atrocity in Bondi, is to try and ask
Speaker 4: the government and everybody in Australia to pretend that the
Speaker 4: actions of Israel haven't happened. And you're sending a very
Speaker 4: confused set of signals by inviting them here at this moment,
Speaker 4: while at the same time saying to the Australian people,
Speaker 4: as Prime Minister Albanzi has done repeatedly, we value social cohesion.
Speaker 4: We respect an international rules order and the international law.
Speaker 4: This is a complete mess and a very bad mistake
Speaker 4: by the Albenese government.
Speaker 2: Let's go to that, Josh, I mean an overwhelming majority
Speaker 2: of Jewish Australians feel a strong connection with Israel. So
Speaker 2: what do you say to that argument that in the
Speaker 2: wake of the Bondai massacres, politics should be set aside
Speaker 2: so that the leader can show their respect for the
Speaker 2: victims and families of the bond Di massacre.
Speaker 4: Nothing about this dispute and this conflict can depoliticized. We've
Speaker 4: seen as soon as the Bondai massacre occurred sordied political
Speaker 4: maneuvering right throughout the political system. It is already clear
Speaker 4: that this visit has been politicized. Those organizations that urge
Speaker 4: the government to invite Herzog here have seized on the
Speaker 4: acceptance of that invitation and invitation extended to Herzog to
Speaker 4: argue that Australia should use the opportunity to reset its
Speaker 4: relationship with Israel. There's going to be photo opportunities with
Speaker 4: the Governor General, with the Prime Minister, god knows what else.
Speaker 4: This is a very bad mistake. The Jewish community is
Speaker 4: not a monolith in Australia anywhere else. There are many
Speaker 4: different perspectives on Israel. Within the Jewish community. There are
Speaker 4: those who are horrified at what has become of Israel.
Speaker 4: There are those who are anti Zionist, so those a
Speaker 4: pro Zionist. At the moment, the voices of the fanatical
Speaker 4: pro Israel lobby are drowning out the rest and producing
Speaker 4: very bizarre outcomes which don't help social cohesion, which actually
Speaker 4: harm it, and which don't help the fight against anti
Speaker 4: Semitism actually harm it. What's clearly driven the rise in
Speaker 4: anti Semitism in the last two years are two things.
Speaker 4: One is the mistreatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli
Speaker 4: state that has caused an anti Semitic backlash in Australia
Speaker 4: and elsewhere. But also the confusion and conflation of Jewish
Speaker 4: identity with Israel. I'm Jewish, but I don't have any
Speaker 4: strong connection with Israel. When you confuse those two things,
Speaker 4: you end up holding all Jewish people responsible. If you
Speaker 4: want revenge for what's going on in Gaza, as unfortunately
Speaker 4: some people will ultimately want to pursue. Then if you
Speaker 4: think that all Australian Jews somehow represent Israel that endangers
Speaker 4: all Australian Jews. There are a range of different views
Speaker 4: within the Jewish community and we should not confuse or
Speaker 4: deceive people into thinking being Jewish in Australia is the
Speaker 4: same as being rapidly pro Israel. It's not.
Speaker 2: Coming up. How the visit will test the PM's new
Speaker 2: hate speech laws, Josh. The Albinezer government, as you've alluded to,
Speaker 2: is facing pressure to rescind this invitation from the Grange,
Speaker 2: from some independence and even from inside their own party.
Speaker 2: Withinps like Edie Usick are.
Speaker 7: To be completely frank and very uncomfortable with it. I
Speaker 7: find it hard to reconcile the images I've seen of
Speaker 7: him signing bombs that were then dropped on Palestinian homes,
Speaker 7: and the fact that the ICJ has called out some
Speaker 7: of his statements as indicating collective responsibility of Palestinians.
Speaker 2: What do you make of Albaniz's response to the pressure
Speaker 2: that is mounted over time.
Speaker 4: Look, the Prime Minister and the government will emphasize the
Speaker 4: horror of Bondai, and I agree no one can dispute
Speaker 4: what happened in Bondai was anything other than a horrific atrocity.
Speaker 2: It sickened me.
Speaker 4: It sickened me for days. How we grieve about it
Speaker 4: has already become a divisive political issue because we cannot
Speaker 4: divorce the appropriate grieving for that horror from the horror
Speaker 4: that's been inflicted by the Israeli state on the Palestinians
Speaker 4: and which continues day in day out.
Speaker 2: Do you think that the government had with on the
Speaker 2: invitation that that could have potentially done more to undermine
Speaker 2: unity and social cohesion.
Speaker 4: I actually think that a majority of Australian people are
Speaker 4: horrified at what has become of Israel and what Israel
Speaker 4: has done and is doing. There's no doubt any action
Speaker 4: of the government in this situation where they've invited President
Speaker 4: Herzog to Australia. Were he to be disinvited, that would
Speaker 4: be contentious, But I think a majority of Australians might
Speaker 4: think differently and might.
Speaker 2: Support it, Josh. The government has also just passed new
Speaker 2: hate speech laws aimed at criminalizing incitement, and at the
Speaker 2: same time is hosting a leader whose statements have been
Speaker 2: citing in international proceedings as evidence of incitement, allegations that
Speaker 2: he strongly denies. How do you square those two things.
Speaker 4: You can't square them. You can't square them. You can't
Speaker 4: on the one hand, say we are a government committed
Speaker 4: to stamping out in sight of racial hatred, incitement of genocide,
Speaker 4: incitement of violence on the basis of race, and on
Speaker 4: the other hand, welcome someone into Australia who is accused
Speaker 4: of that at the very highest levels in the world.
Speaker 4: They're just irreconcilable. So Anthony Albaneze is on some very
Speaker 4: positive things and said some very positive things about the
Speaker 4: need for social cohesion, the need for stronger laws about
Speaker 4: inciting racial hatred and violence and so on, the need
Speaker 4: for respect for international law, the rule of law, for
Speaker 4: a rules based global order.
Speaker 1: If we allow any nation to imagine itself outside the
Speaker 1: rules more above them, then the sovereignty of every nation
Speaker 1: is eroded.
Speaker 4: Read But by this invitation, he's undermined all of those messages,
Speaker 4: which then I think undermines people's trust and faith in
Speaker 4: him and his government. So it's a really bad mistake
Speaker 4: that I think is not going to play well during
Speaker 4: this visit and not going to play well after this visit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So if we talk about the visit finally, Josh,
Speaker 2: I mean it's too late to call the visit off. Now,
Speaker 2: hurtzock will fly in, the protests will go off around
Speaker 2: the country. So where does that leave us? How do
Speaker 2: we begin to heal some of those wounds within the
Speaker 2: Jewish community and the nation more broadly when it.
Speaker 4: Comes to all of this, Look, if people thought there
Speaker 4: was hope for Palestinian equality, for dignity, then I suspect
Speaker 4: the rise in anti Semitism or the antisemitic problem we
Speaker 4: face would diminish, if not disappear. It never completely goes,
Speaker 4: but it would substantially diminish, And so all of our
Speaker 4: efforts as a nation should be directed to pressuring Israel
Speaker 4: to cease its barrant conduct and to moving international policy
Speaker 4: towards supporting equality for Palestinians. Secondly, we need to educate
Speaker 4: the Australian public about the difference between being Jewish and
Speaker 4: the state of Israel, so that you don't get people
Speaker 4: thinking that I can retaliate against Israel's mistreatment by punishing
Speaker 4: Jewish people, either in France or Germany, or Canada or Australia.
Speaker 4: At some point we're going to need to have civilized discussion.
Speaker 4: Even for someone who's Jewish and who criticize the state
Speaker 4: of israel I receive an extraordinary amount of florid abuse
Speaker 4: from pro israel fanatics. It's not possible for me to
Speaker 4: have a dialogue with those people because they're abusive. But
Speaker 4: at some point we need to be able to foster
Speaker 4: a culture where we can have differences of opinion and
Speaker 4: not have such abuse and vitriol flying around. This is
Speaker 4: not just a problem in this context, but it's a
Speaker 4: broader problem on social media in other realms of our
Speaker 4: life now, where polarization, threats of violence, a retreat from
Speaker 4: the democratic discourse and norms is underway, and that's a
Speaker 4: huge challenge, not just for Australia but globally. But at
Speaker 4: some point we need to try and move towards a
Speaker 4: better understanding about how to navigate our differences.
Speaker 2: Josh, thank you so much for joining seven AM.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Also, the Western Australian authorities have confirmed the targeting of
Speaker 2: an Invasion Day rally in per Center is now being
Speaker 2: treated as a terrorism event. An explosive device which did
Speaker 2: not detonate, was allegedly thrown into a crowd of Indigenous people,
Speaker 2: families and supporters gathering in per CBD on January twenty six,
Speaker 2: a thirty one year old man was previously charged with
Speaker 2: making or possessing an explosive and committing an act with
Speaker 2: intent to cause harm. The man will now be charged
Speaker 2: with one count of engaging in a terrorist act, the
Speaker 2: first time the charge has been laid in the state,
Speaker 2: and draft legislation has been introduced into Federal Parliament to
Speaker 2: permanently establish the National Commissioner for First Nation's Children. The
Speaker 2: bill formalizes the appointment of sioue An Hunter as the
Speaker 2: full time National Commissioner for Aboriginal Terrest Trail Under young People,
Speaker 2: First Nation's children are twenty seven times more likely to
Speaker 2: be in use detention than non Indigenous children and ten
Speaker 2: times more likely to be in out of home care.
Speaker 2: The government will also release as late as Closing the
Speaker 2: Gap Report next week. You've been listening to seven AM.
Speaker 2: We'll be back tomorrow