WEBVTT - Stop the visa hop: inside Labor’s migration crackdown 0:00:03.820 --> 0:00:06.760 From The Australian, here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:13.930 It's Friday, August 28, 2026. Police took three months to 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:17.570 properly investigate the death of a healthy 30-year-old pregnant woman, 0:00:18.050 --> 0:00:21.570 even though they suspected something odd and she was found 0:00:21.630 --> 0:00:25.790 in a position that strongly indicated the deadly poison strychnine. 0:00:26.290 --> 0:00:29.850 Rosalind McQueen's case is the subject of our podcast investigation, 0:00:29.990 --> 0:00:33.780 The Poisoned Wife. You can find the show at thepoisonedwife.com 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.010 and wherever you listen. Plus, episode three is live now 0:00:38.350 --> 0:00:43.510 for The Australian subscribers in Apple Podcasts. Also today, go 0:00:43.550 --> 0:00:47.850 to theaustralian.com.au for our rolling coverage of the aftermath of 0:00:47.930 --> 0:00:56.240 flash flooding disaster in Nepal and Tibet. Nothing makes Labor 0:00:56.260 --> 0:01:00.520 politicians sweat like an immigration controversy. And now the federal 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.890 government has come up with a crackdown to bring migration 0:01:03.950 --> 0:01:07.790 numbers down in the attempt to appease the right while 0:01:07.890 --> 0:01:10.229 trying not to alienate the left. 0:01:10.850 --> 0:01:11.500 Will it work? 0:01:11.750 --> 0:01:15.400 And what problem are we trying to solve anyway? That's 0:01:15.540 --> 0:01:27.340 today's story. Geoff Chambers is the Australian's political editor and 0:01:27.380 --> 0:01:29.520 he's been writing about a concept that I hadn't heard 0:01:29.580 --> 0:01:32.149 of before. Geoff, what is visa hopping? 0:01:33.150 --> 0:01:35.710 Well, visa hopping is a very common trend. 0:01:35.410 --> 0:01:39.450 That over the last two decades, we've seen a bit 0:01:39.470 --> 0:01:42.729 of a cottage industry emerge amongst migration agents and such. 0:01:42.790 --> 0:01:45.890 And the advice that is given is that if you're 0:01:45.940 --> 0:01:47.920 here on a temporary visa, or if you're here as 0:01:47.940 --> 0:01:51.919 an international student, there are avenues and pathways to remain 0:01:51.940 --> 0:01:55.620 in the country and quite often remain in Australia indefinitely. 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.640 And what they do is basically hop from one type 0:01:58.700 --> 0:02:01.640 of visa to another. And we've seen this a lot 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:08.169 in the international education, higher education, VET, English language sectors, 0:02:08.650 --> 0:02:11.309 where you're going to see a person that's arrived here 0:02:11.350 --> 0:02:13.720 from abroad do one course, and then they're going to 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.960 move to another course and seek a different visa. And 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.380 this is a big issue because They're doing this here 0:02:19.419 --> 0:02:23.220 in Australia onshore. Quite often under these student visas, you 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.380 can bring family members out here. So they're looking to 0:02:26.419 --> 0:02:29.200 have a longer life and a longer time in Australia. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:34.110 But when we've currently got about 700,000 international students in 0:02:34.150 --> 0:02:36.650 the country, that becomes a bit of an issue. And 0:02:36.830 --> 0:02:42.049 few countries, Western countries, actually allow this onshore application. So 0:02:42.130 --> 0:02:45.769 I think it would make a difference if you can say, okay, look, 0:02:46.100 --> 0:02:48.530 We're very open to you making that application, but you 0:02:48.570 --> 0:02:50.670 do have to go home and you do have to 0:02:50.710 --> 0:02:53.230 make that new pitch as to why you want to 0:02:53.250 --> 0:02:56.410 continue your various courses here in Australia. 0:02:57.630 --> 0:03:00.109 This is part of a crackdown, a looming crackdown that 0:03:00.169 --> 0:03:02.800 you've revealed that the Labor government is now working up 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.859 and it's all about getting net overseas migration down. Labor 0:03:06.900 --> 0:03:09.799 has been trying to get the net overseas migration down 0:03:09.860 --> 0:03:11.780 for quite a while now and. 0:03:11.700 --> 0:03:13.200 It's really struggling. 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:14.019 Why? 0:03:14.139 --> 0:03:15.440 Is visa hopping the reason? 0:03:16.270 --> 0:03:19.090 I think the reason is to get the NOM down 0:03:19.230 --> 0:03:22.209 requires some pretty extreme and drastic decisions. 0:03:22.850 --> 0:03:23.989 One is in the enforcement. 0:03:24.030 --> 0:03:26.310 So if you do have illegal overstays, you're going to 0:03:26.330 --> 0:03:28.240 have to make that call that they're going to have 0:03:28.250 --> 0:03:31.160 to go to a detention centre and then they're going 0:03:31.180 --> 0:03:33.780 to have to get deported. And that is something that 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.260 has happened under Labor, but the argument is they haven't 0:03:37.300 --> 0:03:40.840 gone as hard as they possibly could. I like to 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.530 go back after the 2022 election when Claire O'Neill is 0:03:44.550 --> 0:03:49.010 the then Home Affairs Minister tasked Martin Parkinson, former PMC 0:03:49.050 --> 0:03:53.230 and Treasury Secretary, to do Labor's big migration review. And 0:03:53.250 --> 0:03:55.280 the purpose of that really was to say, oh, the 0:03:55.300 --> 0:03:57.560 coalition over a decade did such a bad job. 0:03:57.920 --> 0:03:59.500 Here are all the problems. 0:04:00.070 --> 0:04:02.190 So what Martin Parkinson did was he actually, in fact, 0:04:02.390 --> 0:04:06.790 identified what needs to be done. And Labor, for the 0:04:06.830 --> 0:04:09.670 last three and a half years almost now, haven't really 0:04:09.770 --> 0:04:13.380 followed through. So they're now in the process of trying 0:04:13.410 --> 0:04:16.400 to do that because they understand that. that the optics 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.719 for a Labor government in particular to look like they're 0:04:19.779 --> 0:04:22.700 not on top of immigration and on top of borders, 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.640 this is becoming problematic as we see the rise of 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.680 One Nation and both the Labor Party and Anthony Albanese's 0:04:30.060 --> 0:04:35.600 personal standings go down post-Bondi terrorist attack. And as everyone's 0:04:35.620 --> 0:04:37.900 sort of doing it tough in this cost of living environment. 0:04:43.089 --> 0:04:45.770 It's a really interesting philosophical one for Labor, isn't it? 0:04:45.820 --> 0:04:48.980 The big argument for many years in Australia has been 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.300 that higher levels of migration improve our Labor productivity. We 0:04:52.339 --> 0:04:54.700 bring in the kind of skilled workers who have the 0:04:54.750 --> 0:04:56.849 initiative to get themselves here in the first place. They 0:04:56.890 --> 0:05:01.630 contribute to Australia. They make this country better. And especially now, 0:05:02.210 --> 0:05:03.890 our fertility rate is. 0:05:04.050 --> 0:05:04.890 Low and falling. 0:05:04.970 --> 0:05:07.300 We're not replacing ourselves in the numbers that we need 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.940 to sustain our economy into the future. you could take 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.070 a pretty cynical view and say Labor still holds that view, 0:05:14.089 --> 0:05:16.410 but is prepared to sacrifice it because they're worried about 0:05:16.529 --> 0:05:19.250 One Nation. Is it as simple as that right now, 0:05:19.350 --> 0:05:21.810 or is there a bigger shift going on within Labor? 0:05:22.370 --> 0:05:27.460 The economic impacts of substantially lowering the net overseas migration figure, 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.480 which some people argue is not the figure that should 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.380 actually be looked at because the NOM looks at everything 0:05:33.420 --> 0:05:35.850 that's coming in and out of the country, any visitors, 0:05:35.940 --> 0:05:38.620 any Australians that are coming in and out. So It's 0:05:38.660 --> 0:05:41.840 actually quite hard to get that number down significantly. You'd 0:05:41.860 --> 0:05:44.340 have to do some pretty drastic things to get to 0:05:44.380 --> 0:05:48.080 that point. I think that Anthony Albanese has intervened. He 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.760 clearly was concerned about what happened to Keir Starmer over 0:05:51.820 --> 0:05:55.180 in the UK, who, you know, obviously has been replaced. 0:05:56.220 --> 0:05:59.760 So Keir Starmer's small boats record is officially worse than 0:05:59.960 --> 0:06:03.159 any of his predecessors as Prime Minister. 0:06:03.500 --> 0:06:06.760 And Anthony Albanese and Tony Burke have now changed their 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.600 views on things like Operation Sovereign Borders, boat turnbacks, the 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.560 use of Nauru. All of these are important, but there 0:06:14.620 --> 0:06:17.440 is a bigger issue at play, and that is the 0:06:17.540 --> 0:06:22.360 impacts of this huge post-pandemic record migration levels on things 0:06:22.420 --> 0:06:26.159 like community infrastructure and transport and jobs and all the 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.360 rest of it. So they've got that on one side, 0:06:29.380 --> 0:06:31.860 and then they've got the economic ramifications on the other side. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.100 And if you're Jim Chalmers, You're already delivering deficits. You're 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:39.020 already swimming in a sea of debt. He can't really 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.160 do with some significant cut to migration. And as you say, 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.660 around population, the birth rate is down. So we are 0:06:47.100 --> 0:06:50.900 very heavily reliant on those immigration flows to have the 0:06:50.940 --> 0:06:54.900 people to do cleaning jobs, cooking jobs, all those types 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.740 of those jobs that potentially Australians don't want to do. 0:06:58.290 --> 0:07:01.250 So you've got these two things at force. 0:07:01.670 --> 0:07:04.010 And then you've got a Labor Party who obviously, 2007 0:07:04.010 --> 0:07:08.150 to 2013, under Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard, lost control 0:07:08.170 --> 0:07:11.710 of the borders. And Anthony Albanese and a bunch of people, 0:07:11.750 --> 0:07:15.210 including Tony Burke and Chris Bowen, who were immigration ministers 0:07:15.550 --> 0:07:18.540 during those governments, they know full well what the fallout 0:07:18.570 --> 0:07:20.720 is if you can't get that narrative right. 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.940 We are seeing too many drownings. We are seeing too 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.340 many sinkings, too many innocent people being lost at sea. 0:07:27.870 --> 0:07:32.570 The alternative script, which probably prompted a postponing of Tony 0:07:32.610 --> 0:07:37.100 Burke's announcement of the so-called immigration crackdown, are those people 0:07:37.140 --> 0:07:40.020 that are worried about their left base, are worried about 0:07:40.260 --> 0:07:42.680 people who think that Labor are being mean and being 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.290 like Donald Trump and going too hard or following one 0:07:46.330 --> 0:07:49.310 nation and the coalition down a rabbit hole. So you've 0:07:49.330 --> 0:07:53.770 got those competing pressures at play. But at the very least, 0:07:54.010 --> 0:07:56.890 while Labor might optically want some people to think that 0:07:56.910 --> 0:08:00.460 this is going to be a really forceful crackdown around 0:08:00.500 --> 0:08:04.020 visas and immigration, it might be more of a feather 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:09.060 duster than a big stick. I think Anthony Albanese has said, look, yeah, 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.200 this is a guy that did pretty well amongst diaspora 0:08:11.220 --> 0:08:14.380 communities in the last two elections. he's saying now, look, 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.980 let's just hit our targets. I think we've got to 0:08:17.020 --> 0:08:19.300 at least hit our targets, but we don't have to 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.100 go substantial. We don't have to follow the other guys 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.020 and go substantially lower, but we do have to hit 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:23.840 our targets, guys. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.590 That would bring the norm to 220 odd thousand people 0:08:27.610 --> 0:08:30.210 a year. The coalition is saying it should be more 0:08:30.230 --> 0:08:34.210 like 180,000, but One Nation got itself tangled up. Pauline 0:08:34.250 --> 0:08:37.760 Hanson says it should be 130, but then other members 0:08:37.780 --> 0:08:40.310 of One Nation pointed out quite rightly, I think, that 0:08:40.390 --> 0:08:42.550 if you include the people who we need to work 0:08:42.570 --> 0:08:44.930 in our aged care homes, as you said, Jeff, to 0:08:44.990 --> 0:08:48.530 clean our offices, to pick the fruit that Australians apparently 0:08:48.550 --> 0:08:51.870 don't want to pick, it would be much higher than that. 0:08:51.890 --> 0:08:55.710 It would be more like 180,000 people. That's the alternative 0:08:55.730 --> 0:08:58.209 for Labor, isn't it? It's just holding the line and 0:08:58.590 --> 0:09:04.970 hoping that that becomes obvious to Australians. Most Australians have 0:09:04.990 --> 0:09:07.580 never even heard of the norm, though. Pauline Hanson will 0:09:07.620 --> 0:09:09.940 keep saying migration is too high and that's why you 0:09:09.980 --> 0:09:10.820 can't get a house. 0:09:12.059 --> 0:09:15.520 Why are you using mass migration to paper over your 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.840 abysmal economic management, disregarding the call from millions of Australians 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.340 to stop it due to their standard of living being destroyed? 0:09:24.780 --> 0:09:27.219 So if Labor doesn't actually bring the number down any 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.410 further than its current target, how does it answer that criticism? 0:09:32.030 --> 0:09:33.849 Well, they're the incumbents, aren't they? 0:09:33.950 --> 0:09:36.320 So they're two terms in and they're going to be 0:09:36.340 --> 0:09:39.260 gunning for a third election either late next year or 0:09:39.470 --> 0:09:43.829 in 2028. And it very much squarely lays on them 0:09:43.850 --> 0:09:47.010 in terms of how they manage the immigration system. And 0:09:47.050 --> 0:09:49.670 I think for both Labor and the coalition when they 0:09:49.690 --> 0:09:52.650 were in power, this discussion about what skills do we 0:09:52.670 --> 0:09:53.449 need in this country? 0:09:53.470 --> 0:09:55.770 What are the skills priorities? Who are the type of 0:09:55.830 --> 0:09:57.810 people that we need here? I don't think the work's 0:09:57.890 --> 0:09:58.910 ever been done properly. 0:09:59.110 --> 0:10:02.240 And both my parties are promising that they will try 0:10:02.260 --> 0:10:04.160 and get that right. It is really complex to get 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.780 that right because the needs change year to year. Depends 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.079 on what region of Australia. It depends on the appetite 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:12.900 of who we're trying to attract. Are we trying to 0:10:12.940 --> 0:10:15.700 attract high-level tech type of people, which I think we 0:10:15.740 --> 0:10:18.270 probably should. And I think there'll probably be some exceptions 0:10:18.330 --> 0:10:22.309 and carve-outs for postgraduate research and trying to attract the 0:10:22.350 --> 0:10:25.290 best and the brightest. But it's that sort of underlay 0:10:25.730 --> 0:10:28.610 under the economy, sort of, you know, the care economies, 0:10:29.290 --> 0:10:32.650 you know, as Australia gets older and as those workforces 0:10:32.700 --> 0:10:34.819 get bigger, where are we going to get those people from? 0:10:35.270 --> 0:10:37.300 It's a tool of our soft diplomacy too, isn't it, 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.800 in the Pacific? The Palms Labor Scheme that brings Pacific 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.599 Island workers here to do things like pick fruit, seasonal work. 0:10:43.070 --> 0:10:46.950 I mean, that is Australia's kind of signature policy in 0:10:46.970 --> 0:10:48.970 the region to say, we care about you, we're going 0:10:48.990 --> 0:10:51.410 to help you bring money home to your own economies. 0:10:51.429 --> 0:10:55.420 Oh, it's been such a success and it's bipartisan support. 0:10:55.900 --> 0:10:59.040 And even One Nation people who are familiar with the 0:10:59.100 --> 0:11:02.179 regions and who talk to the farmers are understand that 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.920 it's crucial and really important. And we've seen stories recently 0:11:05.980 --> 0:11:10.200 about the long-term trajectory of Australia's agricultural production and output. 0:11:10.580 --> 0:11:12.880 And it's quite frightening to see where that might go 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.260 if we don't get that mix right. It's really fascinating, 0:11:16.300 --> 0:11:19.439 the politics in this, because I think One Nation, the 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:25.059 Coalition and Labor ultimately have to explain what the impacts 0:11:25.100 --> 0:11:28.240 will be from their various targets. But I certainly think 0:11:28.260 --> 0:11:31.300 it's easier for One Nation and Pauline Hanson to basically, 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.440 you know, she can move positions, it seems, and at 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.040 this point in the cycle, get away with it. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:42.330 Your skilled list includes occupations such as dog handler, hairdresser, gardener, 0:11:42.550 --> 0:11:46.830 golfer and migration agent. Minister, why is your government flooding 0:11:46.890 --> 0:11:49.970 Australia with 80% of unskilled migration? 0:11:53.870 --> 0:11:57.970 Coming up, is lowering migration just a band-aid for our 0:11:58.190 --> 0:12:21.130 homegrown housing crisis? Geoff, Pauline Hanson's big rallying cry is 0:12:21.170 --> 0:12:25.190 that immigration is causing the housing crisis. The counterpoint to 0:12:25.230 --> 0:12:28.510 that is housing is bound up in red tape, lack 0:12:28.550 --> 0:12:32.360 of supply and other factors. Labor would say it's working 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.940 on that with the big budget reforms that have been 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:39.980 very controversial. What do you think? Is immigration becoming the 0:12:40.020 --> 0:12:43.480 scapegoat for the housing situation when it's not really to blame? 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.339 I think it has become that, absolutely. 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.600 And ironically, it was the coalition and Peter Dutton that 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.870 put this, and probably before him, even under the Morrison government, 0:12:53.190 --> 0:12:56.530 that made that tie, that link between migration and housing. 0:12:57.010 --> 0:13:00.770 And it's actually, it's slipped up the coalition. Labor struggles because. 0:13:01.500 --> 0:13:04.720 They've made these huge promises on targets for housing supply 0:13:04.780 --> 0:13:06.500 and cutting red tape and all. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:07.119 The rest of it. 0:13:07.740 --> 0:13:10.880 And it doesn't seem to be anywhere near the trajectory 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.530 that they require. So they naturally will come under pressure. 0:13:15.010 --> 0:13:17.229 And if people can't buy a house or if there's 0:13:17.270 --> 0:13:20.010 issues in the housing market, they're going to look for 0:13:20.030 --> 0:13:22.929 something to blame. And you do have Pauline Hanson then 0:13:22.990 --> 0:13:26.540 saying people can't get housing because immigration is out of control. 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.920 And I think the out of control narrative, whether it's 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.179 the public service is out of control, they're hiring too much. 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:33.800 Spending's out of control. 0:13:33.820 --> 0:13:37.370 I think it's a fairly common theme where if people 0:13:37.490 --> 0:13:39.910 are struggling in a cost of living crisis, in a 0:13:39.970 --> 0:13:43.849 housing crisis, and they don't know who to blame and 0:13:44.450 --> 0:13:46.910 they're going to get told it's the government's fault, it's 0:13:46.929 --> 0:13:49.860 the major party's fault because they've let you down. I 0:13:50.390 --> 0:13:53.559 think that is why One Nation is gaining so much traction. 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.450 Geoff Chambers is The Australian's political editor. You can check 0:14:06.490 --> 0:14:08.830 out his work anytime at theaustralian.com.au.