Speaker 1: I get a team, it's harps. It's it's Nicole, not little.
Speaker 1: It's definitely not little, it's Laddell. So don't fuck that up,
Speaker 1: right because she gets very angry. And I did just
Speaker 1: quadruple check that before we went live after knowing her
Speaker 1: for twenty years.
Speaker 2: That you know when you you know, when you have
Speaker 2: a thought and you think, maybe, what if I've.
Speaker 1: Been getting someone's pronunciation wrong for twenty years? But I hadn't,
Speaker 1: So that's good. But imagine if your name wasn't Nicole
Speaker 1: but rather Nikola or something like that.
Speaker 3: No, then it would probably be Nikola.
Speaker 2: Well, no, it's got an e on the end.
Speaker 1: Nicola little, or it could be let's fuck that off.
Speaker 1: That's a ridiculous conversation. How are you?
Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good? How's the how's the PhD landscape? Are you?
Speaker 2: Are you coming up for oxygen every now and then?
Speaker 2: Are you drowning in a sea of academia?
Speaker 4: You?
Speaker 2: Okay? What is the update?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 5: Today, because you know it changes, but today and this week,
Speaker 5: I'm at that point where my to do list is
Speaker 5: so long that I'm spending more time writing a to
Speaker 5: do list than I'm actually doing anything, and then you
Speaker 5: kind of get halfway through something and then you think, shit,
Speaker 5: I've got to do something else, and then you know
Speaker 5: when you just get kind of frozen in that overwhelmed.
Speaker 5: So that's where I'm at this week. But I'm pretty
Speaker 5: sure that tomorrow morning I'll get up and do some
Speaker 5: project management and get myself organized again and I'll be
Speaker 5: back on track.
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's where it's at the moment.
Speaker 1: I have this little ritual every morning which is pursuant
Speaker 1: to your comments just then you're on it, which is
Speaker 1: and you probably heard me say this.
Speaker 2: But I don't say it exactly like this, but it's
Speaker 2: a form of this.
Speaker 1: In terms of what I want to get done today,
Speaker 1: what needs to have my attention, in terms of what
Speaker 1: I want to do be create change today, that's my
Speaker 1: little thing. What needs to have my attention, what's the
Speaker 1: best use of my time, what's the best use of
Speaker 1: my emotional energy, what's the best.
Speaker 2: Use of my focus?
Speaker 1: And it kind of yeah, because you can start the
Speaker 1: day with twenty different things that you could actually pay
Speaker 1: attention to, and then at the end of the day
Speaker 1: you've done nothing nothing.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that's how That's pretty much how the last
Speaker 5: couple of weeks have gone. And I'm at that stage
Speaker 5: where there's, you know, five different balls in the air.
Speaker 5: So I've got I'm interviewing participants for one study, and
Speaker 5: I'm getting ethics approval for the next study. I've been
Speaker 5: asked to be part of the Gender based Violence Task
Speaker 5: Force at the UNI, so I've got to do some
Speaker 5: stuff for that, and so yeah, so it's all good, but.
Speaker 3: It's a lot.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk. I mean, we always go what are
Speaker 1: we going to talk about? We just end up chatting. Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about efficiency. I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, we've spoken before on this show about the busy,
Speaker 1: the busy badge. How are you? Oh, what's up busy?
Speaker 1: How you going busy?
Speaker 2: How have you been busy? How are things busy?
Speaker 1: It's like it's like a social kind of a trophy,
Speaker 1: and we take pride in how busy we are, and
Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily correlate with efficient or productivity or effectiveness.
Speaker 2: You know, I think that.
Speaker 1: Trying to figure out, like what are my priorities, what
Speaker 1: needs to like, what are the one what's the one, two, three?
Speaker 2: Four?
Speaker 1: Things today that really need to be prioritized because it
Speaker 1: is so easy, especially if you are like probably you
Speaker 1: and me, which is you know, you've got work, you've
Speaker 1: got study, you've got a life, you've got training, you've
Speaker 1: got lots of other commitments. We're both in a similar
Speaker 1: position at the moment. I'm just stumbling towards the finished line,
Speaker 1: as everyone knows. But but there are just every day
Speaker 1: you could do. I could actually do forty hours of
Speaker 1: work a day if there was forty hours in a
Speaker 1: day and I have the energy, which I do not,
Speaker 1: but I could easily fill forty hours because every night
Speaker 1: when I go to bed, there's still a bunch of stuff,
Speaker 1: not not half done, but there's still stuff to do tomorrow.
Speaker 1: And you think even even down to like sometimes this
Speaker 1: is bad, but like sometimes two days will go by
Speaker 1: and I go, I haven't thought about my mum or
Speaker 1: dad for two days. I mean, they're always floating around
Speaker 1: my consciousness, you know. Yeah, I think I'm a fucking
Speaker 1: terrible son, you know. Or there's that thing that like
Speaker 1: I got a new dry dryer wash clothes dry the
Speaker 1: other day when I say the other day four weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and I put the old one outside my side door
Speaker 1: next to one of my motorbikes, and I went, I'll
Speaker 1: get rid of that in the next couple of days. Well,
Speaker 1: that's still sitting there next to the motorbike, and it
Speaker 1: may have things growing on it very soon, because you
Speaker 1: know when you go, yeah, that's not a good use
Speaker 1: of my time today. That's not a problem. That can
Speaker 1: just sit there, And I really want to make sure
Speaker 1: it's not still sitting there at Christmas as some kind
Speaker 1: of ornaments in the garden.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that being prudent.
Speaker 1: With our time and our energy based on what we
Speaker 1: need to get done is kind of pretty paramount when
Speaker 1: you're trying to especially do a PhD like you or
Speaker 1: create some kind of outcome, you know, be it in
Speaker 1: business or something else.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's interesting because I've noticed a habit that
Speaker 5: I've had and I think I've had it for a
Speaker 5: long time, but I catch myself doing it now and
Speaker 5: I stop myself. Is that when I start to get
Speaker 5: a little bit overwhelmed for some stupid reason, I start
Speaker 5: adding things to the list just to make myself feel worse.
Speaker 5: Like it's like, oh shit, I haven't even washed my
Speaker 5: car for months, but I didn't care that I hadn't
Speaker 5: washed my car, but suddenly that, on top of everything else,
Speaker 5: is appriarately And so I don't know why we do that,
Speaker 5: but I managed to catch myself doing that now because
Speaker 5: it's almost like you're deliberately catastrophizing it and making it bigger,
Speaker 5: almost to justify some level of anxiety. So I catch
Speaker 5: myself doing that now, and I go, do you really
Speaker 5: care that your car's not wash?
Speaker 3: I don't really care about it. Does it really matter
Speaker 3: in the big scheme of things that your cars not clean?
Speaker 1: No? Really, And in terms of in terms of my
Speaker 1: priorities right now, is that going to move the needle
Speaker 1: on anything that really? No? So you know, let's make
Speaker 1: sure it's got air in the tiers and petrol. Let's
Speaker 1: make sure it's not falling apart. But if it's got
Speaker 1: a bit of dust and dirt and bird poop, it's
Speaker 1: probably probably not going to derail your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: For those who don't know Nicole, let me do just
Speaker 1: a quick rewind. So we've known each other for a
Speaker 1: long time. She lives in the Sunshine State. You live
Speaker 1: in the Sunshine State. I don't know why I'm talking
Speaker 1: about you in the third person, and that do you
Speaker 1: know what? You probably don't, but that chat that we
Speaker 1: have where you were basically unpacking, where your life was
Speaker 1: falling apart, and you just you ended up starting UNI.
Speaker 1: I don't know what number that was, we might post
Speaker 1: it in the show notes, but where the last thing
Speaker 1: on your mind was really that you would become an academic.
Speaker 1: I think it's like like, and by the way it
Speaker 1: works out, you're really good at academia. You're a really
Speaker 1: good student, you're a really good teacher, you're a really
Speaker 1: good researcher. But it was almost fortuitous that you just
Speaker 1: ended up in this space now where at fifty two,
Speaker 1: kind a halfway or a bit, I don't know, vaguely
Speaker 1: halfway through your PhD where and you started your undergrad
Speaker 1: degree which became an undergrad and an honors degree. You
Speaker 1: started that when you were forty three and twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: and then you started your PhD.
Speaker 2: Too well, I know, last year in March, so almost
Speaker 2: like a year and a half ago, right.
Speaker 1: But I love that because so many of our listeners
Speaker 1: are summer in the ballpark of kind of thirty five
Speaker 1: to sixty, and it's really nice to hear somebody who's
Speaker 1: maybe not shout out to our twenty three year olds.
Speaker 1: We love our twenty three year olds, but it's nice
Speaker 1: to here somebody who's not twenty three, who's excelling at
Speaker 1: fifty two. And I know you wouldn't bring this up,
Speaker 1: but I'm bringing it up. You just got you just
Speaker 1: did you just win an award or get a grant
Speaker 1: or you just got a whole bunch of money that
Speaker 1: you can use to clean your car?
Speaker 2: What happened?
Speaker 6: Yeah, So my current self is thinking my past self profusely,
Speaker 6: because one afternoon I just kind of sat here and
Speaker 6: looked for external scholarships.
Speaker 5: I came across this scholarship that was opening in July
Speaker 5: this year. This was probably about six or twelve months ago,
Speaker 5: and I put it in my diary to follow up
Speaker 5: when it opened. So it came up in my calendar.
Speaker 5: I had a look at it. I said to my supervisor,
Speaker 5: do you think I should apply for this? And she said, yeah,
Speaker 5: you would probably meet the criteria, And so I put
Speaker 5: in the application, not really giving it too much thought,
Speaker 5: just hoping something would happen. And it was a ten
Speaker 5: thousand dollars scholarship. I got got the phone call week
Speaker 5: before last to say that I was the lucky recipient.
Speaker 1: So wow, congrats, that's amazing. Yeah, how long did you
Speaker 1: feel if you did like you didn't really belong in
Speaker 1: academia or like something of a fraud.
Speaker 2: Maybe you never felt that, I'm sure you did at
Speaker 2: the start.
Speaker 1: How long before you felt like, because this is very
Speaker 1: common experience, the people go into like into a new place,
Speaker 1: doing a new thing, they feel unqualified, they feel unworthy,
Speaker 1: they feel all of these, you know, fear based emotions.
Speaker 2: How long before I felt.
Speaker 1: Kind of like, I know I can do this and
Speaker 1: I belong here, this is where I'm meant to be.
Speaker 5: I once I it kind of has just like it's
Speaker 5: the the feeling of competence just gets stronger and stronger.
Speaker 5: Likes I as kind of as the evidence starts to
Speaker 5: show up that I'm okay in this space. But I
Speaker 5: think I think I was still imposter syndrome.
Speaker 3: Well I still do imposter syndrome.
Speaker 5: But I think I was still kind of doubting myself,
Speaker 5: especially through honors, because that's.
Speaker 3: A really that's a tough year.
Speaker 5: But I think once I got into the PhD, like
Speaker 5: I got accepted, and you know, the feedback that I
Speaker 5: got was because you know they do when you apply
Speaker 5: for a PhD, they put you in an order of merit,
Speaker 5: and because I worked in the research center for AGES,
Speaker 5: I kind of got the feedback that I was quite
Speaker 5: high in the order of merit.
Speaker 3: To be accepted into the pH d.
Speaker 5: Which really just blows me away because the type of
Speaker 5: research we do, we're not really big stats heavy, and
Speaker 5: stats was never my favorite stuff. But you know, I
Speaker 5: if something comes up and you know, look, I know
Speaker 5: I know where to go to find the answer and
Speaker 5: to work it out.
Speaker 3: But yeah, So to answer your question, I think once
Speaker 3: I got.
Speaker 5: Accepted into the PhD, I thought, oh, well, they think
Speaker 5: I can do it, so maybe I can. Because that's
Speaker 5: that's not just you know, someone going you know, someone
Speaker 5: that I know giving.
Speaker 3: Me a position.
Speaker 5: It's based on a whole heap of criteria and in
Speaker 5: an order of merit, and I.
Speaker 3: Did really well.
Speaker 5: So you have to earn your place, and I'd earned
Speaker 5: my place. So I think that was when I really
Speaker 5: started to realize that this was something that I could
Speaker 5: do well.
Speaker 1: Isn't it funny how we tend to almost value what
Speaker 1: others think of us more than what we we go
Speaker 1: do you think I could do this? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, I must be able to because Nicole
Speaker 1: said I could. Like, you know, it's a really like
Speaker 1: and looking for even worse than that, looking general terms
Speaker 1: for approval and acceptance from people who actually don't even
Speaker 1: get a fuck about us, rather than rather than approval
Speaker 1: from ourselves. You know, I'm so good at not approving
Speaker 1: of me. I'm so good even now. But I have
Speaker 1: awareness around it, so I recognize what's going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that you and I were talking?
Speaker 1: Sorry interrupt, but you and I were talking about Oh,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? Why do we pay
Speaker 2: attention to what other thinks of us more than we do? Like?
Speaker 1: Why do we need approval from maybe people who don't
Speaker 1: know us and sometimes people who like may not maybe
Speaker 1: don't hate us, but don't really care about us.
Speaker 2: But nonetheless we value that Well, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think there's there.
Speaker 5: It'll be a combination of a heap of things and
Speaker 5: personal experience as well. I think there is definitely a
Speaker 5: healthy amount of self doubt that we have to have,
Speaker 5: like I because I think if we were if we
Speaker 5: thought that we knew it all, then there's nothing to
Speaker 5: learn and we're just obnoxious and hard to be around.
Speaker 2: So okay, I hit the brakes. Does it have to
Speaker 2: be self doubt or can it just be self awareness?
Speaker 3: I don't know, awareness, yeah, or a level of.
Speaker 5: I want to say humility, But it's like that. One
Speaker 5: of my favorite theories is the Dunning Krueger effect.
Speaker 3: You know that when you're an expert, but you're not an.
Speaker 5: Expert because you don't know enough about the subject to
Speaker 5: know that you don't know enough.
Speaker 1: Oh you know, this is what I get from people. Right,
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert at anything, but you know, if
Speaker 1: I do know a lot about anything, it's about exercise programming, right,
Speaker 1: And people when people who don't know shit about exercise
Speaker 1: come and tell me stuff, and that sounds very arrogant.
Speaker 2: I don't mean.
Speaker 1: They don't know how little they know and they're talking.
Speaker 1: They're talking to someone with four decades of experience, owning gyms,
Speaker 1: working in gym's writing programs, working with elite athletes, and
Speaker 1: then they start to tell me about this thing that
Speaker 1: they don't even understand themselves.
Speaker 2: And I don't want to.
Speaker 1: Shoot them to bits, but it's it's a really observ
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've done that the other way around to
Speaker 1: other people who know more than me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we've all been there.
Speaker 5: But yeah, that's I think when you have that awareness
Speaker 5: that you don't like I think that's a valuable thing
Speaker 5: to have. Like, the more I learned, the more I
Speaker 5: realized how much I don't know. So yeah, so why
Speaker 5: do we? So your question was why do we do that?
Speaker 5: I think part of it is nobody wants to be
Speaker 5: the know it all either, Like, so for me personally,
Speaker 5: I feel like, and I think a lot of people
Speaker 5: can relate to this is I probably was aware somewhere
Speaker 5: in my.
Speaker 3: Past that I was pretty clever. Yeah, but maybe being
Speaker 3: pretty clever didn't really get me be.
Speaker 5: Liked or friends or loved or appreciated or people would
Speaker 5: you know? So, I think I had a fear when
Speaker 5: I was younger of coming across as a bit overconfident, right, So,
Speaker 5: because nobody.
Speaker 2: Like, so you learn to play small?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I learned to play small And I think I
Speaker 5: did that. And I know I'm not the only I
Speaker 5: know that's not a unique thing.
Speaker 3: But there's something, there's a there's a sweet spot of.
Speaker 5: Confidence that that isn't arrogance. There's a sweet spot where
Speaker 5: you can, like I now know that I've earned my
Speaker 5: place at the table, but I don't have to There's
Speaker 5: no badge that goes along with it. There's just this
Speaker 5: this quiet confidence you know that I can bring something
Speaker 5: to a conversation or whatever.
Speaker 3: But I was afraid to have that before.
Speaker 5: I don't know, And maybe it's because I don't look
Speaker 5: for the external validation as much as I used to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that for me, a bit of insecurity,
Speaker 1: a bit of self doubt, a bit of imposter syndrome
Speaker 1: keeps me inspired and motivated. Like it keeps me hungry,
Speaker 1: It keeps me wanting to get better and do better.
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds cliche, but it actually does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would feel weird if I thought I'm there now
Speaker 1: like I'm good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm the smartest in the room. I'm this, you know.
Speaker 2: But you know, while you.
Speaker 1: Can simultaneously no, look, I'm pretty good at that. I've
Speaker 1: got some skills that that that's not arrogance, that's just
Speaker 1: awareness because as you said, there's evidence.
Speaker 2: There's data. It's like that whole which I've said before
Speaker 2: on this show.
Speaker 1: You know where I can go you know, like I'm
Speaker 1: coming to Queensland this week, so Thursday night I'm doing
Speaker 1: a workshop. Saturday, I'm doing a corporate gig. And you know,
Speaker 1: when I stand up to do the corporate gig or
Speaker 1: even the public workshop, I don't know what that will be,
Speaker 1: but probably somewhere in the thousands of times that I've
Speaker 1: done a version of that and without any doubt, there
Speaker 1: will still be some fear, some anxiety, some underlying whispering
Speaker 1: voice that goes, well, this could be.
Speaker 2: The time that you absolutely fuck it all up.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's that fearful self doubt or that
Speaker 1: fear driven kind of in a dialogue that's some kind
Speaker 1: in some ways destructive and self sabotaging, while also knowing
Speaker 1: so that's the emotion, but also knowing intellectually, well, I
Speaker 1: must be pretty good at this because people pay to
Speaker 1: come and they've come before, and or I get booked
Speaker 1: and rebooked by the same organizations. So these two things,
Speaker 1: like the intellectual understanding that I'm not shit, can coexist
Speaker 1: with the feeling ah, I am shit, you know, like
Speaker 1: the one doesn't have to disappear.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I think maybe you're right.
Speaker 7: A little bit of self doubt is or a little
Speaker 7: bit of insecurity or I think as long as it's
Speaker 7: not fucking crippling or overwhelming, yeah, maybe it keeps us grounded.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 5: A classic example is next month, I'm going to the
Speaker 5: Gold Coast to a conference which is it's a stoptimistic
Speaker 5: violence conference, So it's the it'll be like, the audience
Speaker 5: will be the DV sector, And my research is it's a.
Speaker 3: Novel approach to the problem.
Speaker 5: So I'm introducing systems thinking in an area that it's
Speaker 5: not really been introduced before, and I'm talking to practitioners
Speaker 5: that are on the ground, and I'm talking about a
Speaker 5: topic that every single person in that room will be
Speaker 5: extremely passionate and emotionally.
Speaker 3: Tied to in some way.
Speaker 5: And I've not been on the ground in the same
Speaker 5: capacity as they have. So I'm very nervous about I
Speaker 5: would say nervous.
Speaker 3: But I'm very mindful of not coming in.
Speaker 5: And going I've got the solution with this systems thinking
Speaker 5: and really kind of understanding the complexity of the problem
Speaker 5: from a because I'm going to be a room full
Speaker 5: of practitioners basically yes, And so I am just quietly
Speaker 5: shitting myself because I want to make sure that I,
Speaker 5: you know, introduce this in a way that is sensitive
Speaker 5: to their experiences as practitioners dealing with some pretty heavy
Speaker 5: and complex issues. So yeah, it's that it's I have
Speaker 5: the confidence in knowing that what I bring to the table,
Speaker 5: you know, might be useful or it might open up
Speaker 5: some conversation.
Speaker 3: But I also want to make sure that.
Speaker 5: I am respectful in the way and conscious in the
Speaker 5: way that I deliver it, so that I'm not coming
Speaker 5: and going I've got all the answers to this really
Speaker 5: really complex problem.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's going to be well.
Speaker 1: I think your safety net is your research and your
Speaker 1: results and your data. It's like, that's not an opinion,
Speaker 1: that's results. That's what That's not what you think, that's
Speaker 1: what the research tells us or your research tells us.
Speaker 1: So being able to present science, you know, that's kind
Speaker 1: of you're not getting up there thinking saying, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure about all this, but let me tell you what
Speaker 1: I think, or let me tell you my experiences or
Speaker 1: my opinions. So this is a good opportunity for us
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit about your research. So just
Speaker 1: give us a like an aerial overview of what it is,
Speaker 1: what's the what are you exploring?
Speaker 2: And then let us go from there.
Speaker 3: So we are.
Speaker 5: So I'll tell you a little bit about what systems
Speaker 5: thinking is first. So systems thinking or systems science is
Speaker 5: it's a way of making sense of complexity. So the
Speaker 5: models and frameworks within systems thinking and system science are
Speaker 5: applied to complex issues and instead of looking at and
Speaker 5: so when I say systems, it's like, for a good example,
Speaker 5: is like the healthcare system, the defense force, you know,
Speaker 5: the rail transport systems. So anything that we operate within
Speaker 5: is anything that has rules and regulations and policies and.
Speaker 2: Structure and process and all that.
Speaker 5: So that's a system, right, And so rather than looking
Speaker 5: at certain components of a system, systems thinking looks at
Speaker 5: the whole system as the unit of analysis, and we
Speaker 5: look for interactions across the system, and we look for
Speaker 5: leverage points where.
Speaker 3: We can implement.
Speaker 5: Change for maximum impact for you know, the least amount
Speaker 5: of effort or expense.
Speaker 3: So the system that I'm looking at for my research
Speaker 3: is it's the use of.
Speaker 5: Technology or how technology is used the use of technology
Speaker 5: for coercive control in the context of intimate partner violence.
Speaker 4: Stop stop all right, sorry, just I'm just like how
Speaker 4: technology hang on ad tech is used for coercive control. Yeah,
Speaker 4: sorry everybody, I just don't want to show over this
Speaker 4: because I think it's okay.
Speaker 5: So technology facilitated coercive control.
Speaker 3: So how give us give us an example, an example.
Speaker 5: It can be anything from threat text messages to an
Speaker 5: intimate partner, all the way to surveillance, GPS monitoring, hacking
Speaker 5: into accounts, internet banking docsing, which is you know, putting
Speaker 5: information online, stalking online, stalking, anything anything that uses technology
Speaker 5: to perpetrate coercive control.
Speaker 1: Like threatening to share intimate videos and all that. That
Speaker 1: was in the news recently. Some who but some couple
Speaker 1: of people have been where their partners were putting up
Speaker 1: they broke up, and then that's a really fascinating and
Speaker 1: I would think bigger than people would think that area,
Speaker 1: I mean, oh.
Speaker 5: Massive, Yeah I I didn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like even I was surprised at the technology is.
Speaker 5: We cannot function without it in our everyday lives, and
Speaker 5: so it just stands to reason that if someone so
Speaker 5: we use technology as an extension of our normal behaviors.
Speaker 5: So if somebody is coercively controlling or is perpetrating abuse,
Speaker 5: in a relationship. Then technology is naturally going to be
Speaker 5: part of that in today's world, and it escalates when
Speaker 5: relationships end or if someone you know, if victims survivor
Speaker 5: leaves an abusive relationship, then sometimes what they experienced within
Speaker 5: the relationship person to person, just the technology becomes the
Speaker 5: you know, the choice, yeah, to perpetrate abuse, and.
Speaker 3: It's it's the problem with it is is it.
Speaker 5: Becomes so perpetrators then have this or victim survivors have
Speaker 5: this sense of omnipresence, so they can't leave the house
Speaker 5: without you know, because there's tracking devices on you. You
Speaker 5: can get a new phone, but as soon as you
Speaker 5: log in with your Google you know, if the tracking
Speaker 5: software to your Google account or your iCloud or you know,
Speaker 5: or you then the device itself is it doesn't matter,
Speaker 5: it's it's the software you're using and you and you know,
Speaker 5: trying to find out where the where you be, where
Speaker 5: it is located is really difficult.
Speaker 3: So it's a big problem.
Speaker 5: And so my PhD is looking at specifically our the
Speaker 5: systemic responses to it. So how are we responding when
Speaker 5: someone is experiencing We call it TFCC for sure. So
Speaker 5: tech facilitated coursive control. So someone is experiencing TFCC, how
Speaker 5: are we systemically responding to it, and where are the
Speaker 5: leverage points in the system that we can enact some
Speaker 5: change and for some impactful interventions, for better responses to
Speaker 5: keep people safe.
Speaker 1: And I mean, this is and I know this is
Speaker 1: and I guess with AI, this is like, this is
Speaker 1: like a wave just cascade. This is like a tsunami
Speaker 1: of technology that's approaching an unsuspecting town of people, you know,
Speaker 1: just making their sandwich at the kitchen bench. They don't
Speaker 1: know what's coming. But I feel like with AI, that's
Speaker 1: only going to make the problem bigger, the control and
Speaker 1: the ability to do horrible shit for people with an
Speaker 1: agenda easier in a way because now and then tracking
Speaker 1: those people who are doing that horrible shit, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like the volumes going up on this what
Speaker 1: are like what is in place currently or some of
Speaker 1: the things that are in place or maybe being explored
Speaker 1: to even begin to mitigate or deal with this stuff.
Speaker 5: Well at the moment, and you know, so I'm interviewing
Speaker 5: victim survivors at the moment for the first study because
Speaker 5: what I want to do first is find out what
Speaker 5: their experiences are while seeking help, so not so much
Speaker 5: their experience specifically around the abuse, although you can't talk
Speaker 5: about the response without talking about the abuse.
Speaker 3: But I'm trying to.
Speaker 5: Get specifically what sort of help they've received, and it's
Speaker 5: really varied. And you know, there are some services out
Speaker 5: there that cost money. There are some that are if
Speaker 5: you're referred to the right service, you can get grants
Speaker 5: and things like that to help you. But you know,
Speaker 5: there are some forensic digital forensic services that will come
Speaker 5: out and do a sweep of your home or I'll
Speaker 5: you know, sweep your car. Police have pretty limited knowledge
Speaker 5: around the depth. So you know, a policeman can come
Speaker 5: out and shine a tort around your car and try
Speaker 5: and find a tracking device, but you really need specialized
Speaker 5: people to come and really go through your devices and
Speaker 5: stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So there is that.
Speaker 5: But the trouble is that that I'm finding talking to
Speaker 5: victim survivors now is that they either don't have access
Speaker 5: to that, or they don't know about it, or yeah,
Speaker 5: it really depends on who they talk to. It's pot
Speaker 5: lark if you get if you get the right person
Speaker 5: to talk to you that's going to refer you to
Speaker 5: the right services, then you might get some service. But
Speaker 5: I've got one, you know, one participant who spends all
Speaker 5: of her income on court fees because she's you know,
Speaker 5: through the court system with her the family, family and
Speaker 5: criminal court system with her perpetrator. So she hasn't got
Speaker 5: the funds to and he's still monitoring her, but she
Speaker 5: has got the funds too, So it's a it's a
Speaker 5: big problem.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also I mean then you throw into that the
Speaker 1: terror and the sleepless nights and the anxiety, I mean obviously,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's just like it's multi layered. There are
Speaker 1: so many I would imagine, there are so many variables
Speaker 1: to this, and yeah, and that's right the I would imagine,
Speaker 1: which is no poor reflection.
Speaker 2: On the police.
Speaker 1: But firstly, they're under resource in every state in Australia,
Speaker 1: I feel like, definitely in Victoria. And it's it's where
Speaker 1: do you start with this, because there's no this is
Speaker 1: you know, if somebody's punching someone in the face, it's
Speaker 1: it's immediate, Oh, there's a policeman or woman there, we
Speaker 1: can deal with it.
Speaker 2: You know, here's somebody, you know.
Speaker 1: But with stuff like this, there's no there's not even
Speaker 1: a kind of quick fix, a complicated slow fix.
Speaker 5: I would think, well, and we need to move away
Speaker 5: from the idea of responding to an incident, so which
Speaker 5: is what you know, Like a couple has a fight,
Speaker 5: someone gets physical or violent, the police respond to that incident.
Speaker 5: So we need to be responding to the pattern of
Speaker 5: behavior because sometimes you know, and it's complicated and there's
Speaker 5: you know, there's there's situational couple violence where you know,
Speaker 5: there's actually no coercive control happening in that relationship, but
Speaker 5: both parties got had a few too many to drink
Speaker 5: and they've had an incident, but they don't but there's
Speaker 5: no ongoing controlling behavior. So you know, that's it's difficult
Speaker 5: for police to when they respond to a call out.
Speaker 5: Are they responding to just a situational couple's violence incident
Speaker 5: or are they are they stepping into you know, a
Speaker 5: complex issue of control across the whole relationship.
Speaker 8: So yeah, it's can I ask, And I know it's
Speaker 8: it's baby steps in it's early days and you've just
Speaker 8: kind of you've just put the key in the car
Speaker 8: and you're just hitting second gear on the bloody academic.
Speaker 1: Highway, right, I know, that, But so can you tell
Speaker 1: us what you do know now that you didn't, Like,
Speaker 1: has there been any outcomes? What is your research and
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be conclusive or extrapolated across all
Speaker 1: kind of spectrums, but like, what can you tell us
Speaker 1: that you now know that you didn't you know a
Speaker 1: year and a half ago.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, from a systems thinking perspective, we I did
Speaker 5: my literature review involved having a look. We were looking
Speaker 5: at factors that influence tech facilitated abuse and what we
Speaker 5: found applying systems thinking frameworks, what we found was a
Speaker 5: lot of the research or most of the research has
Speaker 5: identified factors that influence the behavior at the we call
Speaker 5: it the lower levels of the system. So it's kind
Speaker 5: of like at that perpetrator victim interface. So they're looking
Speaker 5: at attachment issues or personality traits and things like that.
Speaker 5: So the most or a lot of the literature is
Speaker 5: looking at those lower levels, and those factors really are
Speaker 5: pertaining to behaviors or characteristics of individuals.
Speaker 3: But there was very little.
Speaker 5: As far as the higher levels, you know, so policing,
Speaker 5: you know, policy, government, all of those higher levels of
Speaker 5: the system. There wasn't a lot of factors relating to
Speaker 5: those higher levels, and the ones that did that we're
Speaker 5: sitting at those higher levels really related more to responses.
Speaker 3: So I was I was wanting.
Speaker 5: To look at what enables the abuse, but what we
Speaker 5: found was anything at the higher.
Speaker 3: Levels of the system was really it was the lack.
Speaker 5: Of response or the inadequate responses that was enabling the
Speaker 5: abuse to continue.
Speaker 3: So that's why my PhD kind of after.
Speaker 5: That literature review and we realized that that was when
Speaker 5: we realized we really need to look at how we
Speaker 5: are responding from a systemic because we already know a
Speaker 5: lot around you know, attachment issues, you know, you know,
Speaker 5: childhood history, family of origin, history of violence, and you know,
Speaker 5: we know quite a lot around that, but we don't
Speaker 5: know very much at.
Speaker 3: All around.
Speaker 5: How the how the current responses are actually creating more
Speaker 5: opportunity for abuse to occur.
Speaker 2: Is there a.
Speaker 1: Is there a clear line between just someone who's really
Speaker 1: fucking annoying and texts and doesn't read the signs and
Speaker 1: you know, thirteen messages a day. It's not threatening particularly,
Speaker 1: it's not intimidating per se, but it's just really fucking
Speaker 1: unwanted and annoying, and like what qualifies as coercive control,
Speaker 1: Like is it is it like there's a particular threat
Speaker 1: or demand or is there some kind of line that
Speaker 1: is crossed?
Speaker 3: So coercive control is and like, I'm really grateful.
Speaker 5: For the changes in legislation, and I know that it's
Speaker 5: difficult to police, and there's a lot of people that
Speaker 5: are saying, you know, what's the point. The point for
Speaker 5: me is people are talking about it, and there are
Speaker 5: a lot of people that now understand or at least
Speaker 5: asking the question, what is coercive control or you know,
Speaker 5: because they've never even heard the term before. So the
Speaker 5: definition of it, and that the definition varies, as is
Speaker 5: often the case, but it's a pattern of behaviors that
Speaker 5: is designed to dominate or control another person. So one
Speaker 5: of the or two of the key elements to cours
Speaker 5: of control is understanding intent and harm. So there are
Speaker 5: behaviors that are a little bit controlling, you know, and
Speaker 5: especially when you look at young people in relationships and
Speaker 5: they've got these find my Friends apps and you know
Speaker 5: they're tracking each other. Those behaviors can be quite innocuous.
Speaker 5: But it's intent, it's the intention of controlling, and it's
Speaker 5: the harm that is being caused. So you can't talk
Speaker 5: about coursive control without talking about intent and harm.
Speaker 2: Mmmm. Wow? And do you where?
Speaker 1: Who do you sit down with? How do you like?
Speaker 1: Are people forthcoming for your research? Are people putting up
Speaker 1: their hand and saying? Do people want to talk about it?
Speaker 1: Are people comfortable? Uncomfortable? Is it all done? I guess
Speaker 1: it's all done anonymously for obvious reasons. But are you
Speaker 1: finding it easy to get you know, people for your research?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 5: So, because we're looking at systemic responses. I'm not like,
Speaker 5: I'm not looking at the psychological side of coercive control,
Speaker 5: and I'm not looking into, you know, individual behaviors and
Speaker 5: traits and characteristics. We're really focusing on responses. So we're
Speaker 5: really focusing on the systems perspective.
Speaker 3: Of the responses.
Speaker 5: So I have had I was really surprised at the
Speaker 5: response that I got.
Speaker 3: And what I have found is that the women that
Speaker 3: I've spoken to have had so coersive.
Speaker 5: One of the impacts of coercive control is really feeling
Speaker 5: completely isolated, helpless, defeated. You know that you have no
Speaker 5: control of your life because someone else has taken control.
Speaker 5: So the feedback that I've gotten from a huge percentage
Speaker 5: of the women that I've spoken to is they're more
Speaker 5: than happy to participate in the research because it gives
Speaker 5: them a.
Speaker 3: Sense of.
Speaker 2: The validation being heard.
Speaker 3: And being heard. But also, you know, one of the questions.
Speaker 5: I ask is what advice would you give women in
Speaker 5: the future who are seeking help for tech facilitated abuse
Speaker 5: and so they're they're having a voice and helping a
Speaker 5: problem that they felt helpless in. So because I was
Speaker 5: really concerned, you know, as I should be as a researcher,
Speaker 5: I wanted to make sure that the conversations I was
Speaker 5: having was not going to retraumatize anybody. But what I
Speaker 5: have found is that it is actually giving people a
Speaker 5: sense of control over the whole situation because they're contributing
Speaker 5: to making it a change, you know, so which also
Speaker 5: puts a little bit of pressure on the researcher. But
Speaker 5: I think, not that I need to fix the problem
Speaker 5: for them, but it means that what I'm doing matters
Speaker 5: and it has meaning, and you know, if I can
Speaker 5: if we can make even a small difference to how
Speaker 5: we respond, then that's good.
Speaker 1: Would part of the I'm just thinking now about, you know,
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you so what's the solution.
Speaker 1: Obviously that's a dumb question, but moving towards like how
Speaker 1: do we address this practically systems thinking I get it, well,
Speaker 1: kind of get it. Thanks for teaching me. But in
Speaker 1: terms of moving towards something, which is where we're hopefully
Speaker 1: shining a little bit of a light in the darkness
Speaker 1: of all of this that gives some people hope and
Speaker 1: some people answers or protection or do you have anything
Speaker 1: in the back of your head? And I know this
Speaker 1: is probably getting ahead of where you are right now,
Speaker 1: but I don't mean this in terms of your research,
Speaker 1: but just you as a researcher, thinking what would you
Speaker 1: like to see happen potentially in the future that might
Speaker 1: help the probably thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds maybe of
Speaker 1: people in Australia and beyond who are dealing with this.
Speaker 2: Like is there anything.
Speaker 1: Like such like you surely you've thought about well maybe,
Speaker 1: But it's like when I'm talking about stuff like, for example,
Speaker 1: with metabception, metaaccuracy, metacognition is realizing that most people you know,
Speaker 1: so in my stuff, I'm thinking, all right, well, most
Speaker 1: people don't understand how other people think. Most people don't
Speaker 1: understand what they're like to be around most people, you know,
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and then I so identify that and
Speaker 1: I go, well, what's what's some what's not what's the answer,
Speaker 1: but what's something that we could do to maybe move the.
Speaker 2: Needle on this?
Speaker 1: How how do I approach this where it might create
Speaker 1: some kind of positive impact regarding this issue in this
Speaker 1: place with these people. And I know you're far away
Speaker 1: from that, and I think this is a very complicated thing.
Speaker 1: It needs to be dealt with, so I don't have
Speaker 1: to have a question in there, but maybe you've got
Speaker 1: some thoughts.
Speaker 5: Well from a system sew perspective, we don't know yet,
Speaker 5: but what we are going to do is take the
Speaker 5: We'll be developing like a almost like an aggregated journey
Speaker 5: map of the experiences of a victim survivor while seeking help,
Speaker 5: and then we're then we'll be doing some so the
Speaker 5: next three studies after that will be actually interactive workshops
Speaker 5: with stakeholders, so you know, police, legal professionals, digital software developers,
Speaker 5: you know, any even telecommunications companies because you know they
Speaker 5: play a big part in as well. So we'll be
Speaker 5: taking the journey map to them and then we want
Speaker 5: to have a look, and we'll be applying some systems
Speaker 5: thinking methods and frameworks, and you know, after two or
Speaker 5: three more studies, we'll be developing some recommendations for interventions.
Speaker 3: Across the system, right, right, So there's that.
Speaker 5: I don't know what they will be yet because we
Speaker 5: don't know where the leverage points are yet. So that's
Speaker 5: I'm excited to kind of move through that because it's
Speaker 5: it's a it's an approach that's not been applied by
Speaker 5: for so I'm hoping that some new novel kind of
Speaker 5: interventions and some new ideas come out of that. So
Speaker 5: there's that as far as because there's responses, and then
Speaker 5: there's addressing the issue you know, primary primary intervention at
Speaker 5: changing attitudes and you know, teaching young people healthy relationships
Speaker 5: and things like that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's I think there's.
Speaker 5: A lot being done in that space already. It's a
Speaker 5: public health campaign really.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like also, and remember everyone, this is just
Speaker 1: a chat, and I have thrown Nicole under the bus.
Speaker 2: Yeah what pressure? What pressure?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 1: But I think also you know, like obviously your research
Speaker 1: has focused on in relationships, but also we see you know,
Speaker 1: tech tech facility abuse in the workplace.
Speaker 2: We see it in.
Speaker 1: Like I reckon, I know, I don't know how many
Speaker 1: I'm guessing, but maybe twenty people who are no longer
Speaker 1: on either any social media or one particular platform because
Speaker 1: they just got so much abuse, so much hate, and
Speaker 1: they were so fearful, they were so anxious, there was
Speaker 1: so much negative shit around that they just got off.
Speaker 1: And and you know, for some of them, it actually
Speaker 1: is in their interest to have a social media presence
Speaker 1: because of their business or because of their career or whatever,
Speaker 1: but they're not doing it because it's just when you do,
Speaker 1: you do a cost benefit analysis, like it just ain't
Speaker 1: worth it, like the emotional and psychological cost of being
Speaker 1: on social media for some people. You know, it's just
Speaker 1: and so I think it's like, yes, obviously specific to
Speaker 1: your research intimate couples, but it's something that.
Speaker 2: Is I think.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just going to expand because technology is growing,
Speaker 1: the eye is growing. I mean, I wonder you know
Speaker 1: all the stuff, all the different forms of abuse that
Speaker 1: are going to you know, present themselves over the next
Speaker 1: year or ten that come by way of artificial intelligence,
Speaker 1: like being able to manipulate and control and influence and
Speaker 1: terrify people using greater and greater in inverted commas.
Speaker 2: You know technology well, and one.
Speaker 3: Of the things that really concerns me personally.
Speaker 5: Is AI is like we we feed AI, right, So
Speaker 5: AI is based on is a virtual world, based on
Speaker 5: our physical world, and we have and we are completely imperfect,
Speaker 5: you know, we have we live in a patriarchal society.
Speaker 5: We have you know, there's gender biases, there's all of this.
Speaker 3: Stuff is being fed into AI.
Speaker 5: And so outputs AI outputs will have those biases built in.
Speaker 3: So you know that's a concern.
Speaker 5: So you know, like there's so many layers to this
Speaker 5: that you know, and you know, you can't talk about
Speaker 5: course of control and intimate partner vance without talking about
Speaker 5: gender based violence because it is a gendered issue. It
Speaker 5: is a gender issue, and you know, I've had this
Speaker 5: argument with so many people that is it really though, well, yes,
Speaker 5: actually is you just have to look at the statistics. Yes,
Speaker 5: so AI is AI concerns me in that regard, So
Speaker 5: you know, we can be all we can be doing
Speaker 5: all of this stuff over here as researchers and coming
Speaker 5: up with interventions and trying to change attitudes.
Speaker 3: But if AI horses already bolted.
Speaker 5: With AI, then no amount of changing attitudes here is
Speaker 5: really going to We're always going to be behind the april.
Speaker 3: So that behinds me.
Speaker 2: Do you think part of well, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like and this is different to intimate relationships,
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of the abuse, the abuse
Speaker 1: is you know, rampant, because people can do it to
Speaker 1: an extent anonymously, right, they can do it, you know,
Speaker 1: they can, you know, and some people do it you know, openly,
Speaker 1: But there are so many people that are hateful and
Speaker 1: hurtful and fucking evil, use fake names and all of
Speaker 1: that stuff because you know, there's no and then like
Speaker 1: it's really not even worth the time and effort for
Speaker 1: unless they're committing a crime. You know, who's going to
Speaker 1: do anything about that? Because it's just such an overwhelm
Speaker 1: of that. You know, It's like that happens billions of
Speaker 1: times a day around the world.
Speaker 2: So where do you even begin to address that stuff?
Speaker 5: I mean, well, this is where, you know, one of
Speaker 5: the one of the principles of systems thinking is safety
Speaker 5: because systems thinking, you know, a lot of the frameworks
Speaker 5: we're designed for safety, So we do a lot of
Speaker 5: safety research around you know, aviation safety, rail of us,
Speaker 5: crossing safety and that sort of thing. So we've just
Speaker 5: kind of moved it over to personal safety. But one
Speaker 5: of the tenants is that safety is a shared responsibility.
Speaker 5: So every single player in the system, from the tech
Speaker 5: companies to the software to the social media companies, everyone
Speaker 5: has a shared responsibility for safety.
Speaker 1: So that I think that's theoretically, but how the fuck
Speaker 1: do you endorse that?
Speaker 2: How do you? I mean, I'm with you, but good
Speaker 2: luck in that.
Speaker 3: Real mean, And that's the challenge.
Speaker 5: That's the challenge, and that's where we that's where I'm
Speaker 5: hoping to find some you know, effective leverage points across
Speaker 5: the system where we can kind of pull in some
Speaker 5: of those stakeholders to accept the shared responsibility, yeah, exand
Speaker 5: that they have responsibility or policies or laws or you know,
Speaker 5: legislation put in place so that the responsibility is shared.
Speaker 1: I think, so try to interrupt I think, like with
Speaker 1: a lot of these things, even with a lot of
Speaker 1: the I don't even want to mention what it is,
Speaker 1: but like a lot of the ship that we're seeing,
Speaker 1: a lot of the crimes that we're seeing in and
Speaker 1: around Melbourne, I'm sure it happens in Queensland, like like
Speaker 1: violence with all groups on, Like there's no real consequences,
Speaker 1: Like people are committing crime after crime after crime after crime,
Speaker 1: and they're not going to jail. And I think one
Speaker 1: of the challenges is that, well, when people can do
Speaker 1: heinous shit and they're not really penalized, you know, then
Speaker 1: their life has not changed dramatically. There they do something horrible,
Speaker 1: something hurtful, hateful, evil, and then depending on what it is,
Speaker 1: you know, they're just given a slap on the wrist,
Speaker 1: if that at all, and then there's no there's no
Speaker 1: real deterrence for some of this stuff.
Speaker 2: Obviously this is different. And it's like, well, you know,
Speaker 2: like I've had.
Speaker 1: You know, nothing horrendous, but well yeah, I've had people
Speaker 1: send me emails and messages that are like really fucking horrendous,
Speaker 1: like you know, like which I won't elaborate on here,
Speaker 1: but it's like, oh, and I mean, firstly, it's quite
Speaker 1: hateful and hurtful. Secondly, I think what's going on in
Speaker 1: this person's head that they take the time and find
Speaker 1: the energy to send me this person they've never met,
Speaker 1: this thing based.
Speaker 2: On It's like, wow, what is curious? Around that. But
Speaker 2: then you go, oh, what do I do? And it's like, well,
Speaker 2: what the fuck can you do?
Speaker 5: It's like yeah, yeah, But then it's I guess it's
Speaker 5: the it's knowing or not knowing if a threat comes
Speaker 5: to you via some electronic means like an email or
Speaker 5: a Facebook message or something like that, where is this person?
Speaker 5: Like are they outside the front door? Or are they
Speaker 5: in another state or are they in another country?
Speaker 3: Like it can be frightening, Oh for sure, yeah, and
Speaker 3: I mean this.
Speaker 2: With complete compassion. And then I think about more vulnerable people,
Speaker 2: women and children. I'm talking more physically vulnerable, Like that's
Speaker 2: got to be fucking terrifying.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like I'm a big al fora male, and there's ship
Speaker 1: that still scares me. And I'm like, wow, I think
Speaker 1: about my mum, who's forty five kilos and five foot
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so.
Speaker 1: Well, well, it's it's an ongoing kind of unfolding lesson,
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's like we're still figuring out what the
Speaker 1: what the real problem, what the potential not solutions but
Speaker 1: perhaps strategies moving towards some.
Speaker 2: Kind of I don't know that we'll ever solve it.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's.
Speaker 1: The right phrase, but or the right kind of you
Speaker 1: know word, but definitely moving towards dealing with it practically
Speaker 1: and alleviating some of the pain.
Speaker 2: Maybe.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well, and just to give you an example, and this
Speaker 5: is what these are. These are the things that really
Speaker 5: shocked me is things like robovacs, a robot vacuum cleaner. Yeah,
Speaker 5: can be used, has been used as a spy.
Speaker 3: Where listening device.
Speaker 5: Knowing I knew who you were talking to on the
Speaker 5: phone last night, how did you know?
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter, you don't know. Weeks later down the.
Speaker 5: Track you work out that it's the robovac following because
Speaker 5: it's following you around the house because the perpetrator's got
Speaker 5: it on remote control cameras in the house being taken
Speaker 5: over remotely, laptop's being taken over remotely. It's like, it
Speaker 5: is insidious the things that people.
Speaker 3: Have to deal with.
Speaker 5: And you know, if you're if you're someone who's running
Speaker 5: a business.
Speaker 3: You can't afford to be without your devices.
Speaker 5: You can't afford to be you know, without your internet
Speaker 5: access or your or whatever.
Speaker 3: So some of.
Speaker 5: These women have just learned to live knowing that they're
Speaker 5: constantly being monitored by an ex partner and just trying
Speaker 5: to do the best that they can to minimize that,
Speaker 5: knowing that he could turn up anywhere at any time.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there are a couple of solutions that come
Speaker 1: to mind for me, but they're not they're not particularly legal.
Speaker 1: So I was that is that was interesting. Congratulations on
Speaker 1: the research that you're doing. Thanks for shining a light
Speaker 1: on that.
Speaker 2: And if you're.
Speaker 1: Listening, I know we didn't really fix or change or
Speaker 1: solve anything, but I think we opened an important conversational door.
Speaker 2: And I think the more that we.
Speaker 1: Talk about this and think about this, and you know,
Speaker 1: while it's not I wish it wasn't happening. I wish
Speaker 1: it wasn't a thing in our culture. I wish it
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing in our society. But wishing doesn't make
Speaker 1: it so. And so you know, it's good that we
Speaker 1: we have these hard conversations about these hard topics and
Speaker 1: at the very least we increase a little bit of awareness.
Speaker 1: And do you need any more participants for your research?
Speaker 2: Can? Do you want people to reach out? Yep? So
Speaker 2: tell them how to do that.
Speaker 5: So they can email me at Nicole dot Liddell L
Speaker 5: I double l at research dot USC dot edu dot
Speaker 5: au and I'll send them a link. So basically, to
Speaker 5: meet the criteria for the study, you need to be
Speaker 5: living or not necessarily living in Queensland, but have experienced
Speaker 5: tech facilitated course of control and sort help from Queensland services.
Speaker 5: And for people's safety, we request that they consider themselves
Speaker 5: to no longer be part be in that relation. So
Speaker 5: you know, it might be that they're still in co
Speaker 5: parenting or something like that, but I just to minimize
Speaker 5: people's risks if they can be if they consider themselves
Speaker 5: being no longer in that relationship.
Speaker 3: But they need to have sought help, so we need
Speaker 3: to get.
Speaker 5: Some information around their help seeking. So yes, they can
Speaker 5: email me there. The other thing I was going to
Speaker 5: suggest to people is if this has opened up kind
Speaker 5: of like what do they want to know more about
Speaker 5: this entire problem? I just listened to an audio book.
Speaker 5: Can I give someone else a plug and just listen
Speaker 5: to Jess Hill's audio books See What.
Speaker 3: You Made Me Do?
Speaker 5: And she's an investigative journalist, She's been in this space
Speaker 5: for a long time and she really gives a really good,
Speaker 5: in depth understanding of the problem of domestic.
Speaker 3: Abuse in Australia.
Speaker 5: So if if you're keen for that, that's a really
Speaker 5: good listen, we'll read great.
Speaker 2: What's that? Just give us the name of the book,
Speaker 2: See What You Made Me.
Speaker 3: Do, See What You Made Me Do? By Jess Hill.
Speaker 2: That's a very clever name, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Like as soon as you said that title, I knew exactly.
Speaker 2: What that was going to be about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we appreciate you. I think I'm going to
Speaker 1: see you in a few.
Speaker 2: Days on the goal.
Speaker 3: I'll be there.
Speaker 2: You'd be good.
Speaker 1: I'll see in a few and well it's two it's
Speaker 1: forty eight hours.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's too right? Oh my godday.
Speaker 2: We'll see you in a couple of days with a
Speaker 2: few others.
Speaker 1: And we appreciate you as always, and congrats with what
Speaker 1: you're doing and good luck with your research and all
Speaker 1: the stuff moving forward.
Speaker 2: Thanks next.
Speaker 3: So yeah,