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Speaker 1: I get a team, it's harps. It's it's Nicole, not little.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely not little, it's Laddell. So don't fuck that up,

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Speaker 1: right because she gets very angry. And I did just

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Speaker 1: quadruple check that before we went live after knowing her

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Speaker 1: for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: That you know when you you know, when you have

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Speaker 2: a thought and you think, maybe, what if I've.

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Speaker 1: Been getting someone's pronunciation wrong for twenty years? But I hadn't,

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Speaker 1: So that's good. But imagine if your name wasn't Nicole

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Speaker 1: but rather Nikola or something like that.

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Speaker 3: No, then it would probably be Nikola.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, it's got an e on the end.

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Speaker 1: Nicola little, or it could be let's fuck that off.

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Speaker 1: That's a ridiculous conversation. How are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm good. How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm good? How's the how's the PhD landscape? Are you?

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Speaker 2: Are you coming up for oxygen every now and then?

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Speaker 2: Are you drowning in a sea of academia?

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Speaker 4: You?

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Speaker 2: Okay? What is the update?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 5: Today, because you know it changes, but today and this week,

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Speaker 5: I'm at that point where my to do list is

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Speaker 5: so long that I'm spending more time writing a to

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Speaker 5: do list than I'm actually doing anything, and then you

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Speaker 5: kind of get halfway through something and then you think, shit,

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Speaker 5: I've got to do something else, and then you know

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Speaker 5: when you just get kind of frozen in that overwhelmed.

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Speaker 5: So that's where I'm at this week. But I'm pretty

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Speaker 5: sure that tomorrow morning I'll get up and do some

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Speaker 5: project management and get myself organized again and I'll be

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Speaker 5: back on track.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, that's where it's at the moment.

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Speaker 1: I have this little ritual every morning which is pursuant

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Speaker 1: to your comments just then you're on it, which is

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Speaker 1: and you probably heard me say this.

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Speaker 2: But I don't say it exactly like this, but it's

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Speaker 2: a form of this.

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Speaker 1: In terms of what I want to get done today,

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Speaker 1: what needs to have my attention, in terms of what

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Speaker 1: I want to do be create change today, that's my

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Speaker 1: little thing. What needs to have my attention, what's the

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Speaker 1: best use of my time, what's the best use of

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Speaker 1: my emotional energy, what's the best.

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Speaker 2: Use of my focus?

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Speaker 1: And it kind of yeah, because you can start the

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Speaker 1: day with twenty different things that you could actually pay

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Speaker 1: attention to, and then at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: you've done nothing nothing.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that's how That's pretty much how the last

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Speaker 5: couple of weeks have gone. And I'm at that stage

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Speaker 5: where there's, you know, five different balls in the air.

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Speaker 5: So I've got I'm interviewing participants for one study, and

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Speaker 5: I'm getting ethics approval for the next study. I've been

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Speaker 5: asked to be part of the Gender based Violence Task

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Speaker 5: Force at the UNI, so I've got to do some

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Speaker 5: stuff for that, and so yeah, so it's all good, but.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk. I mean, we always go what are

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Speaker 1: we going to talk about? We just end up chatting. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about efficiency. I feel like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've spoken before on this show about the busy,

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Speaker 1: the busy badge. How are you? Oh, what's up busy?

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Speaker 1: How you going busy?

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Speaker 2: How have you been busy? How are things busy?

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Speaker 1: It's like it's like a social kind of a trophy,

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Speaker 1: and we take pride in how busy we are, and

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Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily correlate with efficient or productivity or effectiveness.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think that.

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Speaker 1: Trying to figure out, like what are my priorities, what

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Speaker 1: needs to like, what are the one what's the one, two, three?

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Speaker 2: Four?

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Speaker 1: Things today that really need to be prioritized because it

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Speaker 1: is so easy, especially if you are like probably you

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Speaker 1: and me, which is you know, you've got work, you've

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Speaker 1: got study, you've got a life, you've got training, you've

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Speaker 1: got lots of other commitments. We're both in a similar

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Speaker 1: position at the moment. I'm just stumbling towards the finished line,

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Speaker 1: as everyone knows. But but there are just every day

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Speaker 1: you could do. I could actually do forty hours of

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Speaker 1: work a day if there was forty hours in a

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Speaker 1: day and I have the energy, which I do not,

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Speaker 1: but I could easily fill forty hours because every night

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Speaker 1: when I go to bed, there's still a bunch of stuff,

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Speaker 1: not not half done, but there's still stuff to do tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: And you think even even down to like sometimes this

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Speaker 1: is bad, but like sometimes two days will go by

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Speaker 1: and I go, I haven't thought about my mum or

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Speaker 1: dad for two days. I mean, they're always floating around

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Speaker 1: my consciousness, you know. Yeah, I think I'm a fucking

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Speaker 1: terrible son, you know. Or there's that thing that like

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Speaker 1: I got a new dry dryer wash clothes dry the

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Speaker 1: other day when I say the other day four weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and I put the old one outside my side door

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Speaker 1: next to one of my motorbikes, and I went, I'll

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Speaker 1: get rid of that in the next couple of days. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's still sitting there next to the motorbike, and it

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Speaker 1: may have things growing on it very soon, because you

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Speaker 1: know when you go, yeah, that's not a good use

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Speaker 1: of my time today. That's not a problem. That can

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Speaker 1: just sit there, And I really want to make sure

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Speaker 1: it's not still sitting there at Christmas as some kind

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Speaker 1: of ornaments in the garden.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that being prudent.

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Speaker 1: With our time and our energy based on what we

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Speaker 1: need to get done is kind of pretty paramount when

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Speaker 1: you're trying to especially do a PhD like you or

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Speaker 1: create some kind of outcome, you know, be it in

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Speaker 1: business or something else.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's interesting because I've noticed a habit that

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Speaker 5: I've had and I think I've had it for a

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Speaker 5: long time, but I catch myself doing it now and

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Speaker 5: I stop myself. Is that when I start to get

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Speaker 5: a little bit overwhelmed for some stupid reason, I start

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Speaker 5: adding things to the list just to make myself feel worse.

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Speaker 5: Like it's like, oh shit, I haven't even washed my

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Speaker 5: car for months, but I didn't care that I hadn't

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Speaker 5: washed my car, but suddenly that, on top of everything else,

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Speaker 5: is appriarately And so I don't know why we do that,

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Speaker 5: but I managed to catch myself doing that now because

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Speaker 5: it's almost like you're deliberately catastrophizing it and making it bigger,

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Speaker 5: almost to justify some level of anxiety. So I catch

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Speaker 5: myself doing that now, and I go, do you really

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Speaker 5: care that your car's not wash?

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Speaker 3: I don't really care about it. Does it really matter

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Speaker 3: in the big scheme of things that your cars not clean?

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Speaker 1: No? Really, And in terms of in terms of my

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Speaker 1: priorities right now, is that going to move the needle

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Speaker 1: on anything that really? No? So you know, let's make

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Speaker 1: sure it's got air in the tiers and petrol. Let's

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Speaker 1: make sure it's not falling apart. But if it's got

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Speaker 1: a bit of dust and dirt and bird poop, it's

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Speaker 1: probably probably not going to derail your life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For those who don't know Nicole, let me do just

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Speaker 1: a quick rewind. So we've known each other for a

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Speaker 1: long time. She lives in the Sunshine State. You live

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Speaker 1: in the Sunshine State. I don't know why I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about you in the third person, and that do you

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Speaker 1: know what? You probably don't, but that chat that we

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Speaker 1: have where you were basically unpacking, where your life was

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Speaker 1: falling apart, and you just you ended up starting UNI.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what number that was, we might post

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Speaker 1: it in the show notes, but where the last thing

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Speaker 1: on your mind was really that you would become an academic.

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Speaker 1: I think it's like like, and by the way it

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Speaker 1: works out, you're really good at academia. You're a really

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Speaker 1: good student, you're a really good teacher, you're a really

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Speaker 1: good researcher. But it was almost fortuitous that you just

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Speaker 1: ended up in this space now where at fifty two,

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Speaker 1: kind a halfway or a bit, I don't know, vaguely

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Speaker 1: halfway through your PhD where and you started your undergrad

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Speaker 1: degree which became an undergrad and an honors degree. You

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Speaker 1: started that when you were forty three and twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and then you started your PhD.

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Speaker 2: Too well, I know, last year in March, so almost

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Speaker 2: like a year and a half ago, right.

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Speaker 1: But I love that because so many of our listeners

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Speaker 1: are summer in the ballpark of kind of thirty five

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Speaker 1: to sixty, and it's really nice to hear somebody who's

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Speaker 1: maybe not shout out to our twenty three year olds.

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Speaker 1: We love our twenty three year olds, but it's nice

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Speaker 1: to here somebody who's not twenty three, who's excelling at

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Speaker 1: fifty two. And I know you wouldn't bring this up,

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Speaker 1: but I'm bringing it up. You just got you just

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Speaker 1: did you just win an award or get a grant

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Speaker 1: or you just got a whole bunch of money that

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Speaker 1: you can use to clean your car?

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Speaker 2: What happened?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So my current self is thinking my past self profusely,

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Speaker 6: because one afternoon I just kind of sat here and

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Speaker 6: looked for external scholarships.

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Speaker 5: I came across this scholarship that was opening in July

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Speaker 5: this year. This was probably about six or twelve months ago,

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Speaker 5: and I put it in my diary to follow up

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Speaker 5: when it opened. So it came up in my calendar.

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Speaker 5: I had a look at it. I said to my supervisor,

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Speaker 5: do you think I should apply for this? And she said, yeah,

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Speaker 5: you would probably meet the criteria, And so I put

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Speaker 5: in the application, not really giving it too much thought,

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Speaker 5: just hoping something would happen. And it was a ten

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars scholarship. I got got the phone call week

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Speaker 5: before last to say that I was the lucky recipient.

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Speaker 1: So wow, congrats, that's amazing. Yeah, how long did you

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Speaker 1: feel if you did like you didn't really belong in

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Speaker 1: academia or like something of a fraud.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you never felt that, I'm sure you did at

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Speaker 2: the start.

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Speaker 1: How long before you felt like, because this is very

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Speaker 1: common experience, the people go into like into a new place,

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Speaker 1: doing a new thing, they feel unqualified, they feel unworthy,

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Speaker 1: they feel all of these, you know, fear based emotions.

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Speaker 2: How long before I felt.

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Speaker 1: Kind of like, I know I can do this and

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Speaker 1: I belong here, this is where I'm meant to be.

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Speaker 5: I once I it kind of has just like it's

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Speaker 5: the the feeling of competence just gets stronger and stronger.

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Speaker 5: Likes I as kind of as the evidence starts to

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Speaker 5: show up that I'm okay in this space. But I

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Speaker 5: think I think I was still imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 3: Well I still do imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 5: But I think I was still kind of doubting myself,

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Speaker 5: especially through honors, because that's.

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Speaker 3: A really that's a tough year.

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Speaker 5: But I think once I got into the PhD, like

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Speaker 5: I got accepted, and you know, the feedback that I

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Speaker 5: got was because you know they do when you apply

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Speaker 5: for a PhD, they put you in an order of merit,

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Speaker 5: and because I worked in the research center for AGES,

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Speaker 5: I kind of got the feedback that I was quite

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Speaker 5: high in the order of merit.

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Speaker 3: To be accepted into the pH d.

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Speaker 5: Which really just blows me away because the type of

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Speaker 5: research we do, we're not really big stats heavy, and

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Speaker 5: stats was never my favorite stuff. But you know, I

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Speaker 5: if something comes up and you know, look, I know

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Speaker 5: I know where to go to find the answer and

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Speaker 5: to work it out.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, So to answer your question, I think once

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Speaker 3: I got.

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Speaker 5: Accepted into the PhD, I thought, oh, well, they think

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Speaker 5: I can do it, so maybe I can. Because that's

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Speaker 5: that's not just you know, someone going you know, someone

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Speaker 5: that I know giving.

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Speaker 3: Me a position.

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Speaker 5: It's based on a whole heap of criteria and in

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Speaker 5: an order of merit, and I.

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Speaker 3: Did really well.

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Speaker 5: So you have to earn your place, and I'd earned

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Speaker 5: my place. So I think that was when I really

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Speaker 5: started to realize that this was something that I could

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Speaker 5: do well.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it funny how we tend to almost value what

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Speaker 1: others think of us more than what we we go

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Speaker 1: do you think I could do this? Oh? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, I must be able to because Nicole

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Speaker 1: said I could. Like, you know, it's a really like

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Speaker 1: and looking for even worse than that, looking general terms

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Speaker 1: for approval and acceptance from people who actually don't even

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Speaker 1: get a fuck about us, rather than rather than approval

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Speaker 1: from ourselves. You know, I'm so good at not approving

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Speaker 1: of me. I'm so good even now. But I have

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Speaker 1: awareness around it, so I recognize what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that you and I were talking?

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Speaker 1: Sorry interrupt, but you and I were talking about Oh,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? Why do we pay

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Speaker 2: attention to what other thinks of us more than we do? Like?

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Speaker 1: Why do we need approval from maybe people who don't

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Speaker 1: know us and sometimes people who like may not maybe

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Speaker 1: don't hate us, but don't really care about us.

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Speaker 2: But nonetheless we value that Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I think there's there.

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Speaker 5: It'll be a combination of a heap of things and

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Speaker 5: personal experience as well. I think there is definitely a

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Speaker 5: healthy amount of self doubt that we have to have,

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Speaker 5: like I because I think if we were if we

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Speaker 5: thought that we knew it all, then there's nothing to

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Speaker 5: learn and we're just obnoxious and hard to be around.

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Speaker 2: So okay, I hit the brakes. Does it have to

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Speaker 2: be self doubt or can it just be self awareness?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, awareness, yeah, or a level of.

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Speaker 5: I want to say humility, But it's like that. One

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Speaker 5: of my favorite theories is the Dunning Krueger effect.

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Speaker 3: You know that when you're an expert, but you're not an.

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Speaker 5: Expert because you don't know enough about the subject to

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Speaker 5: know that you don't know enough.

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Speaker 1: Oh you know, this is what I get from people. Right,

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Speaker 1: I'm not an expert at anything, but you know, if

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Speaker 1: I do know a lot about anything, it's about exercise programming, right,

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Speaker 1: And people when people who don't know shit about exercise

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Speaker 1: come and tell me stuff, and that sounds very arrogant.

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Speaker 2: I don't mean.

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Speaker 1: They don't know how little they know and they're talking.

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Speaker 1: They're talking to someone with four decades of experience, owning gyms,

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Speaker 1: working in gym's writing programs, working with elite athletes, and

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Speaker 1: then they start to tell me about this thing that

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Speaker 1: they don't even understand themselves.

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Speaker 2: And I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: Shoot them to bits, but it's it's a really observ

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I've done that the other way around to

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Speaker 1: other people who know more than me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we've all been there.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, that's I think when you have that awareness

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Speaker 5: that you don't like I think that's a valuable thing

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Speaker 5: to have. Like, the more I learned, the more I

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Speaker 5: realized how much I don't know. So yeah, so why

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Speaker 5: do we? So your question was why do we do that?

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Speaker 5: I think part of it is nobody wants to be

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Speaker 5: the know it all either, Like, so for me personally,

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Speaker 5: I feel like, and I think a lot of people

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Speaker 5: can relate to this is I probably was aware somewhere

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Speaker 5: in my.

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Speaker 3: Past that I was pretty clever. Yeah, but maybe being

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Speaker 3: pretty clever didn't really get me be.

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Speaker 5: Liked or friends or loved or appreciated or people would

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Speaker 5: you know? So, I think I had a fear when

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Speaker 5: I was younger of coming across as a bit overconfident, right, So,

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Speaker 5: because nobody.

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Speaker 2: Like, so you learn to play small?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I learned to play small And I think I

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Speaker 5: did that. And I know I'm not the only I

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Speaker 5: know that's not a unique thing.

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Speaker 3: But there's something, there's a there's a sweet spot of.

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Speaker 5: Confidence that that isn't arrogance. There's a sweet spot where

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Speaker 5: you can, like I now know that I've earned my

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Speaker 5: place at the table, but I don't have to There's

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Speaker 5: no badge that goes along with it. There's just this

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Speaker 5: this quiet confidence you know that I can bring something

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Speaker 5: to a conversation or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But I was afraid to have that before.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, And maybe it's because I don't look

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Speaker 5: for the external validation as much as I used to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that for me, a bit of insecurity,

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Speaker 1: a bit of self doubt, a bit of imposter syndrome

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Speaker 1: keeps me inspired and motivated. Like it keeps me hungry,

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Speaker 1: It keeps me wanting to get better and do better.

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Speaker 1: And I know that sounds cliche, but it actually does. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would feel weird if I thought I'm there now

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Speaker 1: like I'm good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm the smartest in the room. I'm this, you know.

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Speaker 2: But you know, while you.

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Speaker 1: Can simultaneously no, look, I'm pretty good at that. I've

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Speaker 1: got some skills that that that's not arrogance, that's just

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Speaker 1: awareness because as you said, there's evidence.

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Speaker 2: There's data. It's like that whole which I've said before

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Speaker 2: on this show.

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Speaker 1: You know where I can go you know, like I'm

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Speaker 1: coming to Queensland this week, so Thursday night I'm doing

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Speaker 1: a workshop. Saturday, I'm doing a corporate gig. And you know,

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Speaker 1: when I stand up to do the corporate gig or

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Speaker 1: even the public workshop, I don't know what that will be,

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Speaker 1: but probably somewhere in the thousands of times that I've

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Speaker 1: done a version of that and without any doubt, there

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Speaker 1: will still be some fear, some anxiety, some underlying whispering

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Speaker 1: voice that goes, well, this could be.

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Speaker 2: The time that you absolutely fuck it all up.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's that fearful self doubt or that

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Speaker 1: fear driven kind of in a dialogue that's some kind

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Speaker 1: in some ways destructive and self sabotaging, while also knowing

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Speaker 1: so that's the emotion, but also knowing intellectually, well, I

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Speaker 1: must be pretty good at this because people pay to

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Speaker 1: come and they've come before, and or I get booked

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Speaker 1: and rebooked by the same organizations. So these two things,

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Speaker 1: like the intellectual understanding that I'm not shit, can coexist

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Speaker 1: with the feeling ah, I am shit, you know, like

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Speaker 1: the one doesn't have to disappear.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know, I think maybe you're right.

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Speaker 7: A little bit of self doubt is or a little

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Speaker 7: bit of insecurity or I think as long as it's

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Speaker 7: not fucking crippling or overwhelming, yeah, maybe it keeps us grounded.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 5: A classic example is next month, I'm going to the

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Speaker 5: Gold Coast to a conference which is it's a stoptimistic

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Speaker 5: violence conference, So it's the it'll be like, the audience

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Speaker 5: will be the DV sector, And my research is it's a.

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Speaker 3: Novel approach to the problem.

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Speaker 5: So I'm introducing systems thinking in an area that it's

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Speaker 5: not really been introduced before, and I'm talking to practitioners

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Speaker 5: that are on the ground, and I'm talking about a

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Speaker 5: topic that every single person in that room will be

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Speaker 5: extremely passionate and emotionally.

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Speaker 3: Tied to in some way.

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Speaker 5: And I've not been on the ground in the same

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Speaker 5: capacity as they have. So I'm very nervous about I

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Speaker 5: would say nervous.

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Speaker 3: But I'm very mindful of not coming in.

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Speaker 5: And going I've got the solution with this systems thinking

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Speaker 5: and really kind of understanding the complexity of the problem

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Speaker 5: from a because I'm going to be a room full

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Speaker 5: of practitioners basically yes, And so I am just quietly

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Speaker 5: shitting myself because I want to make sure that I,

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Speaker 5: you know, introduce this in a way that is sensitive

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Speaker 5: to their experiences as practitioners dealing with some pretty heavy

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Speaker 5: and complex issues. So yeah, it's that it's I have

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Speaker 5: the confidence in knowing that what I bring to the table,

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Speaker 5: you know, might be useful or it might open up

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Speaker 5: some conversation.

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Speaker 3: But I also want to make sure that.

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Speaker 5: I am respectful in the way and conscious in the

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Speaker 5: way that I deliver it, so that I'm not coming

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Speaker 5: and going I've got all the answers to this really

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Speaker 5: really complex problem.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, that's going to be well.

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Speaker 1: I think your safety net is your research and your

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Speaker 1: results and your data. It's like, that's not an opinion,

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Speaker 1: that's results. That's what That's not what you think, that's

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Speaker 1: what the research tells us or your research tells us.

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Speaker 1: So being able to present science, you know, that's kind

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Speaker 1: of you're not getting up there thinking saying, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure about all this, but let me tell you what

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Speaker 1: I think, or let me tell you my experiences or

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Speaker 1: my opinions. So this is a good opportunity for us

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Speaker 1: to learn a little bit about your research. So just

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Speaker 1: give us a like an aerial overview of what it is,

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Speaker 1: what's the what are you exploring?

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Speaker 2: And then let us go from there.

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Speaker 3: So we are.

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Speaker 5: So I'll tell you a little bit about what systems

401
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 5: thinking is first. So systems thinking or systems science is

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Speaker 5: it's a way of making sense of complexity. So the

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Speaker 5: models and frameworks within systems thinking and system science are

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Speaker 5: applied to complex issues and instead of looking at and

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Speaker 5: so when I say systems, it's like, for a good example,

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Speaker 5: is like the healthcare system, the defense force, you know,

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Speaker 5: the rail transport systems. So anything that we operate within

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Speaker 5: is anything that has rules and regulations and policies and.

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Speaker 2: Structure and process and all that.

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Speaker 5: So that's a system, right, And so rather than looking

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Speaker 5: at certain components of a system, systems thinking looks at

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Speaker 5: the whole system as the unit of analysis, and we

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Speaker 5: look for interactions across the system, and we look for

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Speaker 5: leverage points where.

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Speaker 3: We can implement.

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Speaker 5: Change for maximum impact for you know, the least amount

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Speaker 5: of effort or expense.

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Speaker 3: So the system that I'm looking at for my research

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Speaker 3: is it's the use of.

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Speaker 5: Technology or how technology is used the use of technology

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Speaker 5: for coercive control in the context of intimate partner violence.

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Speaker 4: Stop stop all right, sorry, just I'm just like how

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Speaker 4: technology hang on ad tech is used for coercive control. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: sorry everybody, I just don't want to show over this

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Speaker 4: because I think it's okay.

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Speaker 5: So technology facilitated coercive control.

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Speaker 3: So how give us give us an example, an example.

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Speaker 5: It can be anything from threat text messages to an

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Speaker 5: intimate partner, all the way to surveillance, GPS monitoring, hacking

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Speaker 5: into accounts, internet banking docsing, which is you know, putting

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Speaker 5: information online, stalking online, stalking, anything anything that uses technology

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Speaker 5: to perpetrate coercive control.

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Speaker 1: Like threatening to share intimate videos and all that. That

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Speaker 1: was in the news recently. Some who but some couple

435
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Speaker 1: of people have been where their partners were putting up

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Speaker 1: they broke up, and then that's a really fascinating and

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Speaker 1: I would think bigger than people would think that area,

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Speaker 1: I mean, oh.

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Speaker 5: Massive, Yeah I I didn't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like even I was surprised at the technology is.

441
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 5: We cannot function without it in our everyday lives, and

442
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 5: so it just stands to reason that if someone so

443
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 5: we use technology as an extension of our normal behaviors.

444
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 5: So if somebody is coercively controlling or is perpetrating abuse,

445
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 5: in a relationship. Then technology is naturally going to be

446
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 5: part of that in today's world, and it escalates when

447
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 5: relationships end or if someone you know, if victims survivor

448
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 5: leaves an abusive relationship, then sometimes what they experienced within

449
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 5: the relationship person to person, just the technology becomes the

450
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 5: you know, the choice, yeah, to perpetrate abuse, and.

451
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: It's it's the problem with it is is it.

452
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 5: Becomes so perpetrators then have this or victim survivors have

453
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 5: this sense of omnipresence, so they can't leave the house

454
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 5: without you know, because there's tracking devices on you. You

455
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 5: can get a new phone, but as soon as you

456
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 5: log in with your Google you know, if the tracking

457
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 5: software to your Google account or your iCloud or you know,

458
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 5: or you then the device itself is it doesn't matter,

459
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 5: it's it's the software you're using and you and you know,

460
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 5: trying to find out where the where you be, where

461
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 5: it is located is really difficult.

462
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 3: So it's a big problem.

463
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 5: And so my PhD is looking at specifically our the

464
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 5: systemic responses to it. So how are we responding when

465
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 5: someone is experiencing We call it TFCC for sure. So

466
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 5: tech facilitated coursive control. So someone is experiencing TFCC, how

467
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 5: are we systemically responding to it, and where are the

468
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 5: leverage points in the system that we can enact some

469
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 5: change and for some impactful interventions, for better responses to

470
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 5: keep people safe.

471
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: And I mean, this is and I know this is

472
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: and I guess with AI, this is like, this is

473
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: like a wave just cascade. This is like a tsunami

474
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: of technology that's approaching an unsuspecting town of people, you know,

475
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 1: just making their sandwich at the kitchen bench. They don't

476
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: know what's coming. But I feel like with AI, that's

477
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: only going to make the problem bigger, the control and

478
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: the ability to do horrible shit for people with an

479
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: agenda easier in a way because now and then tracking

480
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: those people who are doing that horrible shit, Like, yeah,

481
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: I feel like the volumes going up on this what

482
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: are like what is in place currently or some of

483
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: the things that are in place or maybe being explored

484
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: to even begin to mitigate or deal with this stuff.

485
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 5: Well at the moment, and you know, so I'm interviewing

486
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 5: victim survivors at the moment for the first study because

487
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 5: what I want to do first is find out what

488
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 5: their experiences are while seeking help, so not so much

489
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 5: their experience specifically around the abuse, although you can't talk

490
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 5: about the response without talking about the abuse.

491
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 3: But I'm trying to.

492
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 5: Get specifically what sort of help they've received, and it's

493
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 5: really varied. And you know, there are some services out

494
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 5: there that cost money. There are some that are if

495
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 5: you're referred to the right service, you can get grants

496
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 5: and things like that to help you. But you know,

497
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 5: there are some forensic digital forensic services that will come

498
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 5: out and do a sweep of your home or I'll

499
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 5: you know, sweep your car. Police have pretty limited knowledge

500
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 5: around the depth. So you know, a policeman can come

501
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 5: out and shine a tort around your car and try

502
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 5: and find a tracking device, but you really need specialized

503
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 5: people to come and really go through your devices and

504
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 5: stuff like that.

505
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: So there is that.

506
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 5: But the trouble is that that I'm finding talking to

507
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 5: victim survivors now is that they either don't have access

508
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 5: to that, or they don't know about it, or yeah,

509
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 5: it really depends on who they talk to. It's pot

510
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 5: lark if you get if you get the right person

511
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 5: to talk to you that's going to refer you to

512
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 5: the right services, then you might get some service. But

513
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 5: I've got one, you know, one participant who spends all

514
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 5: of her income on court fees because she's you know,

515
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 5: through the court system with her the family, family and

516
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 5: criminal court system with her perpetrator. So she hasn't got

517
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 5: the funds to and he's still monitoring her, but she

518
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 5: has got the funds too, So it's a it's a

519
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 5: big problem.

520
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

521
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: And also I mean then you throw into that the

522
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: terror and the sleepless nights and the anxiety, I mean obviously,

523
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's just like it's multi layered. There are

524
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: so many I would imagine, there are so many variables

525
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: to this, and yeah, and that's right the I would imagine,

526
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: which is no poor reflection.

527
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: On the police.

528
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: But firstly, they're under resource in every state in Australia,

529
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: I feel like, definitely in Victoria. And it's it's where

530
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: do you start with this, because there's no this is

531
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, if somebody's punching someone in the face, it's

532
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: it's immediate, Oh, there's a policeman or woman there, we

533
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: can deal with it.

534
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: You know, here's somebody, you know.

535
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: But with stuff like this, there's no there's not even

536
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: a kind of quick fix, a complicated slow fix.

537
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 5: I would think, well, and we need to move away

538
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 5: from the idea of responding to an incident, so which

539
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 5: is what you know, Like a couple has a fight,

540
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 5: someone gets physical or violent, the police respond to that incident.

541
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 5: So we need to be responding to the pattern of

542
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 5: behavior because sometimes you know, and it's complicated and there's

543
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 5: you know, there's there's situational couple violence where you know,

544
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 5: there's actually no coercive control happening in that relationship, but

545
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 5: both parties got had a few too many to drink

546
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 5: and they've had an incident, but they don't but there's

547
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 5: no ongoing controlling behavior. So you know, that's it's difficult

548
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 5: for police to when they respond to a call out.

549
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 5: Are they responding to just a situational couple's violence incident

550
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 5: or are they are they stepping into you know, a

551
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 5: complex issue of control across the whole relationship.

552
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 8: So yeah, it's can I ask, And I know it's

553
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 8: it's baby steps in it's early days and you've just

554
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 8: kind of you've just put the key in the car

555
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 8: and you're just hitting second gear on the bloody academic.

556
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: Highway, right, I know, that, But so can you tell

557
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: us what you do know now that you didn't, Like,

558
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: has there been any outcomes? What is your research and

559
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be conclusive or extrapolated across all

560
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: kind of spectrums, but like, what can you tell us

561
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: that you now know that you didn't you know a

562
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: year and a half ago.

563
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, from a systems thinking perspective, we I did

564
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 5: my literature review involved having a look. We were looking

565
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 5: at factors that influence tech facilitated abuse and what we

566
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 5: found applying systems thinking frameworks, what we found was a

567
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 5: lot of the research or most of the research has

568
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 5: identified factors that influence the behavior at the we call

569
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 5: it the lower levels of the system. So it's kind

570
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 5: of like at that perpetrator victim interface. So they're looking

571
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 5: at attachment issues or personality traits and things like that.

572
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 5: So the most or a lot of the literature is

573
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 5: looking at those lower levels, and those factors really are

574
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 5: pertaining to behaviors or characteristics of individuals.

575
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 3: But there was very little.

576
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 5: As far as the higher levels, you know, so policing,

577
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 5: you know, policy, government, all of those higher levels of

578
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 5: the system. There wasn't a lot of factors relating to

579
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 5: those higher levels, and the ones that did that we're

580
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 5: sitting at those higher levels really related more to responses.

581
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 3: So I was I was wanting.

582
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 5: To look at what enables the abuse, but what we

583
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 5: found was anything at the higher.

584
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: Levels of the system was really it was the lack.

585
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 5: Of response or the inadequate responses that was enabling the

586
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 5: abuse to continue.

587
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 3: So that's why my PhD kind of after.

588
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 5: That literature review and we realized that that was when

589
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 5: we realized we really need to look at how we

590
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 5: are responding from a systemic because we already know a

591
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 5: lot around you know, attachment issues, you know, you know,

592
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 5: childhood history, family of origin, history of violence, and you know,

593
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 5: we know quite a lot around that, but we don't

594
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 5: know very much at.

595
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: All around.

596
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 5: How the how the current responses are actually creating more

597
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 5: opportunity for abuse to occur.

598
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: Is there a.

599
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 1: Is there a clear line between just someone who's really

600
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: fucking annoying and texts and doesn't read the signs and

601
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, thirteen messages a day. It's not threatening particularly,

602
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: it's not intimidating per se, but it's just really fucking

603
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: unwanted and annoying, and like what qualifies as coercive control,

604
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: Like is it is it like there's a particular threat

605
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: or demand or is there some kind of line that

606
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: is crossed?

607
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: So coercive control is and like, I'm really grateful.

608
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 5: For the changes in legislation, and I know that it's

609
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 5: difficult to police, and there's a lot of people that

610
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 5: are saying, you know, what's the point. The point for

611
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 5: me is people are talking about it, and there are

612
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 5: a lot of people that now understand or at least

613
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 5: asking the question, what is coercive control or you know,

614
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 5: because they've never even heard the term before. So the

615
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 5: definition of it, and that the definition varies, as is

616
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 5: often the case, but it's a pattern of behaviors that

617
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 5: is designed to dominate or control another person. So one

618
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 5: of the or two of the key elements to cours

619
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 5: of control is understanding intent and harm. So there are

620
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 5: behaviors that are a little bit controlling, you know, and

621
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 5: especially when you look at young people in relationships and

622
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 5: they've got these find my Friends apps and you know

623
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 5: they're tracking each other. Those behaviors can be quite innocuous.

624
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 5: But it's intent, it's the intention of controlling, and it's

625
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 5: the harm that is being caused. So you can't talk

626
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 5: about coursive control without talking about intent and harm.

627
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: Mmmm. Wow? And do you where?

628
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: Who do you sit down with? How do you like?

629
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: Are people forthcoming for your research? Are people putting up

630
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: their hand and saying? Do people want to talk about it?

631
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: Are people comfortable? Uncomfortable? Is it all done? I guess

632
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: it's all done anonymously for obvious reasons. But are you

633
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: finding it easy to get you know, people for your research?

634
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: Yeah?

635
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 5: So, because we're looking at systemic responses. I'm not like,

636
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 5: I'm not looking at the psychological side of coercive control,

637
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 5: and I'm not looking into, you know, individual behaviors and

638
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 5: traits and characteristics. We're really focusing on responses. So we're

639
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 5: really focusing on the systems perspective.

640
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: Of the responses.

641
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 5: So I have had I was really surprised at the

642
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 5: response that I got.

643
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: And what I have found is that the women that

644
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 3: I've spoken to have had so coersive.

645
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 5: One of the impacts of coercive control is really feeling

646
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 5: completely isolated, helpless, defeated. You know that you have no

647
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 5: control of your life because someone else has taken control.

648
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 5: So the feedback that I've gotten from a huge percentage

649
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 5: of the women that I've spoken to is they're more

650
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 5: than happy to participate in the research because it gives

651
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 5: them a.

652
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 3: Sense of.

653
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: The validation being heard.

654
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 3: And being heard. But also, you know, one of the questions.

655
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 5: I ask is what advice would you give women in

656
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 5: the future who are seeking help for tech facilitated abuse

657
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 5: and so they're they're having a voice and helping a

658
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: problem that they felt helpless in. So because I was

659
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 5: really concerned, you know, as I should be as a researcher,

660
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 5: I wanted to make sure that the conversations I was

661
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 5: having was not going to retraumatize anybody. But what I

662
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 5: have found is that it is actually giving people a

663
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 5: sense of control over the whole situation because they're contributing

664
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 5: to making it a change, you know, so which also

665
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 5: puts a little bit of pressure on the researcher. But

666
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 5: I think, not that I need to fix the problem

667
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 5: for them, but it means that what I'm doing matters

668
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 5: and it has meaning, and you know, if I can

669
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 5: if we can make even a small difference to how

670
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 5: we respond, then that's good.

671
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: Would part of the I'm just thinking now about, you know,

672
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you so what's the solution.

673
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: Obviously that's a dumb question, but moving towards like how

674
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: do we address this practically systems thinking I get it, well,

675
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: kind of get it. Thanks for teaching me. But in

676
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: terms of moving towards something, which is where we're hopefully

677
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: shining a little bit of a light in the darkness

678
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: of all of this that gives some people hope and

679
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: some people answers or protection or do you have anything

680
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: in the back of your head? And I know this

681
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: is probably getting ahead of where you are right now,

682
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: but I don't mean this in terms of your research,

683
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: but just you as a researcher, thinking what would you

684
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: like to see happen potentially in the future that might

685
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: help the probably thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds maybe of

686
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: people in Australia and beyond who are dealing with this.

687
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: Like is there anything.

688
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: Like such like you surely you've thought about well maybe,

689
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: But it's like when I'm talking about stuff like, for example,

690
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: with metabception, metaaccuracy, metacognition is realizing that most people you know,

691
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: so in my stuff, I'm thinking, all right, well, most

692
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: people don't understand how other people think. Most people don't

693
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: understand what they're like to be around most people, you know,

694
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and then I so identify that and

695
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: I go, well, what's what's some what's not what's the answer,

696
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: but what's something that we could do to maybe move the.

697
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: Needle on this?

698
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: How how do I approach this where it might create

699
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: some kind of positive impact regarding this issue in this

700
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: place with these people. And I know you're far away

701
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: from that, and I think this is a very complicated thing.

702
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: It needs to be dealt with, so I don't have

703
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: to have a question in there, but maybe you've got

704
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: some thoughts.

705
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 5: Well from a system sew perspective, we don't know yet,

706
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 5: but what we are going to do is take the

707
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 5: We'll be developing like a almost like an aggregated journey

708
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 5: map of the experiences of a victim survivor while seeking help,

709
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 5: and then we're then we'll be doing some so the

710
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 5: next three studies after that will be actually interactive workshops

711
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 5: with stakeholders, so you know, police, legal professionals, digital software developers,

712
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 5: you know, any even telecommunications companies because you know they

713
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 5: play a big part in as well. So we'll be

714
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 5: taking the journey map to them and then we want

715
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 5: to have a look, and we'll be applying some systems

716
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 5: thinking methods and frameworks, and you know, after two or

717
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 5: three more studies, we'll be developing some recommendations for interventions.

718
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 3: Across the system, right, right, So there's that.

719
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 5: I don't know what they will be yet because we

720
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 5: don't know where the leverage points are yet. So that's

721
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 5: I'm excited to kind of move through that because it's

722
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 5: it's a it's an approach that's not been applied by

723
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 5: for so I'm hoping that some new novel kind of

724
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 5: interventions and some new ideas come out of that. So

725
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 5: there's that as far as because there's responses, and then

726
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 5: there's addressing the issue you know, primary primary intervention at

727
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 5: changing attitudes and you know, teaching young people healthy relationships

728
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 5: and things like that.

729
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's I think there's.

730
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 5: A lot being done in that space already. It's a

731
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 5: public health campaign really.

732
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

733
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: I feel like also, and remember everyone, this is just

734
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: a chat, and I have thrown Nicole under the bus.

735
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah what pressure? What pressure?

736
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 7: No?

737
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: But I think also you know, like obviously your research

738
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: has focused on in relationships, but also we see you know,

739
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 1: tech tech facility abuse in the workplace.

740
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 2: We see it in.

741
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: Like I reckon, I know, I don't know how many

742
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: I'm guessing, but maybe twenty people who are no longer

743
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: on either any social media or one particular platform because

744
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: they just got so much abuse, so much hate, and

745
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: they were so fearful, they were so anxious, there was

746
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: so much negative shit around that they just got off.

747
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: And and you know, for some of them, it actually

748
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: is in their interest to have a social media presence

749
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: because of their business or because of their career or whatever,

750
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: but they're not doing it because it's just when you do,

751
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: you do a cost benefit analysis, like it just ain't

752
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: worth it, like the emotional and psychological cost of being

753
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: on social media for some people. You know, it's just

754
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: and so I think it's like, yes, obviously specific to

755
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: your research intimate couples, but it's something that.

756
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: Is I think.

757
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just going to expand because technology is growing,

758
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: the eye is growing. I mean, I wonder you know

759
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: all the stuff, all the different forms of abuse that

760
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: are going to you know, present themselves over the next

761
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: year or ten that come by way of artificial intelligence,

762
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: like being able to manipulate and control and influence and

763
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: terrify people using greater and greater in inverted commas.

764
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 2: You know technology well, and one.

765
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 3: Of the things that really concerns me personally.

766
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 5: Is AI is like we we feed AI, right, So

767
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 5: AI is based on is a virtual world, based on

768
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 5: our physical world, and we have and we are completely imperfect,

769
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 5: you know, we have we live in a patriarchal society.

770
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 5: We have you know, there's gender biases, there's all of this.

771
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 3: Stuff is being fed into AI.

772
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 5: And so outputs AI outputs will have those biases built in.

773
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 3: So you know that's a concern.

774
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 5: So you know, like there's so many layers to this

775
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 5: that you know, and you know, you can't talk about

776
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 5: course of control and intimate partner vance without talking about

777
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 5: gender based violence because it is a gendered issue. It

778
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 5: is a gender issue, and you know, I've had this

779
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 5: argument with so many people that is it really though, well, yes,

780
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 5: actually is you just have to look at the statistics. Yes,

781
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 5: so AI is AI concerns me in that regard, So

782
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 5: you know, we can be all we can be doing

783
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 5: all of this stuff over here as researchers and coming

784
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 5: up with interventions and trying to change attitudes.

785
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 3: But if AI horses already bolted.

786
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 5: With AI, then no amount of changing attitudes here is

787
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 5: really going to We're always going to be behind the april.

788
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 3: So that behinds me.

789
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 2: Do you think part of well, I don't know.

790
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: I feel like and this is different to intimate relationships,

791
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of the abuse, the abuse

792
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: is you know, rampant, because people can do it to

793
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: an extent anonymously, right, they can do it, you know,

794
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: they can, you know, and some people do it you know, openly,

795
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: But there are so many people that are hateful and

796
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: hurtful and fucking evil, use fake names and all of

797
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: that stuff because you know, there's no and then like

798
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: it's really not even worth the time and effort for

799
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: unless they're committing a crime. You know, who's going to

800
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: do anything about that? Because it's just such an overwhelm

801
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: of that. You know, It's like that happens billions of

802
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: times a day around the world.

803
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 2: So where do you even begin to address that stuff?

804
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 5: I mean, well, this is where, you know, one of

805
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 5: the one of the principles of systems thinking is safety

806
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 5: because systems thinking, you know, a lot of the frameworks

807
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 5: we're designed for safety, So we do a lot of

808
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 5: safety research around you know, aviation safety, rail of us,

809
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 5: crossing safety and that sort of thing. So we've just

810
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 5: kind of moved it over to personal safety. But one

811
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 5: of the tenants is that safety is a shared responsibility.

812
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 5: So every single player in the system, from the tech

813
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 5: companies to the software to the social media companies, everyone

814
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 5: has a shared responsibility for safety.

815
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: So that I think that's theoretically, but how the fuck

816
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: do you endorse that?

817
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: How do you? I mean, I'm with you, but good

818
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: luck in that.

819
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 3: Real mean, And that's the challenge.

820
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,479
Speaker 5: That's the challenge, and that's where we that's where I'm

821
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 5: hoping to find some you know, effective leverage points across

822
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 5: the system where we can kind of pull in some

823
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 5: of those stakeholders to accept the shared responsibility, yeah, exand

824
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 5: that they have responsibility or policies or laws or you know,

825
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,240
Speaker 5: legislation put in place so that the responsibility is shared.

826
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: I think, so try to interrupt I think, like with

827
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: a lot of these things, even with a lot of

828
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: the I don't even want to mention what it is,

829
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: but like a lot of the ship that we're seeing,

830
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the crimes that we're seeing in and

831
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: around Melbourne, I'm sure it happens in Queensland, like like

832
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: violence with all groups on, Like there's no real consequences,

833
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: Like people are committing crime after crime after crime after crime,

834
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: and they're not going to jail. And I think one

835
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: of the challenges is that, well, when people can do

836
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 1: heinous shit and they're not really penalized, you know, then

837
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: their life has not changed dramatically. There they do something horrible,

838
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: something hurtful, hateful, evil, and then depending on what it is,

839
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: you know, they're just given a slap on the wrist,

840
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: if that at all, and then there's no there's no

841
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: real deterrence for some of this stuff.

842
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: Obviously this is different. And it's like, well, you know,

843
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 2: like I've had.

844
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: You know, nothing horrendous, but well yeah, I've had people

845
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: send me emails and messages that are like really fucking horrendous,

846
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 1: like you know, like which I won't elaborate on here,

847
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 1: but it's like, oh, and I mean, firstly, it's quite

848
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: hateful and hurtful. Secondly, I think what's going on in

849
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: this person's head that they take the time and find

850
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 1: the energy to send me this person they've never met,

851
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 1: this thing based.

852
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: On It's like, wow, what is curious? Around that. But

853
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 2: then you go, oh, what do I do? And it's like, well,

854
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 2: what the fuck can you do?

855
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 5: It's like yeah, yeah, But then it's I guess it's

856
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 5: the it's knowing or not knowing if a threat comes

857
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 5: to you via some electronic means like an email or

858
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 5: a Facebook message or something like that, where is this person?

859
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 5: Like are they outside the front door? Or are they

860
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 5: in another state or are they in another country?

861
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 3: Like it can be frightening, Oh for sure, yeah, and

862
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 3: I mean this.

863
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 2: With complete compassion. And then I think about more vulnerable people,

864
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 2: women and children. I'm talking more physically vulnerable, Like that's

865
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 2: got to be fucking terrifying.

866
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

867
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: Like I'm a big al fora male, and there's ship

868
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: that still scares me. And I'm like, wow, I think

869
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: about my mum, who's forty five kilos and five foot

870
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: you know.

871
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so.

872
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: Well, well, it's it's an ongoing kind of unfolding lesson,

873
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's like we're still figuring out what the

874
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: what the real problem, what the potential not solutions but

875
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: perhaps strategies moving towards some.

876
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 2: Kind of I don't know that we'll ever solve it.

877
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's.

878
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: The right phrase, but or the right kind of you

879
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: know word, but definitely moving towards dealing with it practically

880
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: and alleviating some of the pain.

881
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 2: Maybe.

882
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

883
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 5: Well, and just to give you an example, and this

884
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 5: is what these are. These are the things that really

885
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 5: shocked me is things like robovacs, a robot vacuum cleaner. Yeah,

886
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 5: can be used, has been used as a spy.

887
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 3: Where listening device.

888
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 5: Knowing I knew who you were talking to on the

889
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 5: phone last night, how did you know?

890
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter, you don't know. Weeks later down the.

891
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 5: Track you work out that it's the robovac following because

892
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 5: it's following you around the house because the perpetrator's got

893
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 5: it on remote control cameras in the house being taken

894
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 5: over remotely, laptop's being taken over remotely. It's like, it

895
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 5: is insidious the things that people.

896
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 3: Have to deal with.

897
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 5: And you know, if you're if you're someone who's running

898
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 5: a business.

899
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 3: You can't afford to be without your devices.

900
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 5: You can't afford to be you know, without your internet

901
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 5: access or your or whatever.

902
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 3: So some of.

903
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 5: These women have just learned to live knowing that they're

904
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 5: constantly being monitored by an ex partner and just trying

905
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 5: to do the best that they can to minimize that,

906
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:15,919
Speaker 5: knowing that he could turn up anywhere at any time.

907
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, there are a couple of solutions that come

908
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 1: to mind for me, but they're not they're not particularly legal.

909
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: So I was that is that was interesting. Congratulations on

910
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: the research that you're doing. Thanks for shining a light

911
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: on that.

912
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 2: And if you're.

913
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: Listening, I know we didn't really fix or change or

914
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: solve anything, but I think we opened an important conversational door.

915
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 2: And I think the more that we.

916
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: Talk about this and think about this, and you know,

917
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 1: while it's not I wish it wasn't happening. I wish

918
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't a thing in our culture. I wish it

919
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing in our society. But wishing doesn't make

920
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: it so. And so you know, it's good that we

921
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 1: we have these hard conversations about these hard topics and

922
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: at the very least we increase a little bit of awareness.

923
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: And do you need any more participants for your research?

924
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: Can? Do you want people to reach out? Yep? So

925
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: tell them how to do that.

926
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 5: So they can email me at Nicole dot Liddell L

927
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 5: I double l at research dot USC dot edu dot

928
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 5: au and I'll send them a link. So basically, to

929
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 5: meet the criteria for the study, you need to be

930
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 5: living or not necessarily living in Queensland, but have experienced

931
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 5: tech facilitated course of control and sort help from Queensland services.

932
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 5: And for people's safety, we request that they consider themselves

933
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 5: to no longer be part be in that relation. So

934
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 5: you know, it might be that they're still in co

935
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 5: parenting or something like that, but I just to minimize

936
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 5: people's risks if they can be if they consider themselves

937
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 5: being no longer in that relationship.

938
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 3: But they need to have sought help, so we need

939
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 3: to get.

940
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:22,879
Speaker 5: Some information around their help seeking. So yes, they can

941
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 5: email me there. The other thing I was going to

942
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 5: suggest to people is if this has opened up kind

943
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 5: of like what do they want to know more about

944
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 5: this entire problem? I just listened to an audio book.

945
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 5: Can I give someone else a plug and just listen

946
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 5: to Jess Hill's audio books See What.

947
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 3: You Made Me Do?

948
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 5: And she's an investigative journalist, She's been in this space

949
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,760
Speaker 5: for a long time and she really gives a really good,

950
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 5: in depth understanding of the problem of domestic.

951
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 3: Abuse in Australia.

952
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,879
Speaker 5: So if if you're keen for that, that's a really

953
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 5: good listen, we'll read great.

954
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,479
Speaker 2: What's that? Just give us the name of the book,

955
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 2: See What You Made Me.

956
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 3: Do, See What You Made Me Do? By Jess Hill.

957
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 2: That's a very clever name, isn't it.

958
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: Like as soon as you said that title, I knew exactly.

959
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: What that was going to be about.

960
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we appreciate you. I think I'm going to

961
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: see you in a few.

962
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 2: Days on the goal.

963
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 3: I'll be there.

964
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 2: You'd be good.

965
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: I'll see in a few and well it's two it's

966
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: forty eight hours.

967
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's too right? Oh my godday.

968
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 2: We'll see you in a couple of days with a

969
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: few others.

970
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: And we appreciate you as always, and congrats with what

971
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: you're doing and good luck with your research and all

972
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: the stuff moving forward.

973
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: Thanks next.

974
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 3: So yeah,