WEBVTT - The scientific controversy over head injuries in sport

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<v Speaker 1>So how did you come across doctor Rudy Castellani's involvement

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<v Speaker 1>in the research for the NRL Well.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Castellani has been one of the many American scientists

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<v Speaker 2>who've been involved in research programs with the US National

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<v Speaker 2>Football League.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm delighted to be here. I think it's a tribute

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<v Speaker 3>to the organizers that he'd be open minded enough to

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<v Speaker 3>have me come and talk about some of these issues.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm a neuropathologist and I've studied neuro de general diseases

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<v Speaker 3>quite a lot over the years.

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<v Speaker 2>With status, Castellani had been on my radar for a

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<v Speaker 2>very long time as one of those sort of, if

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<v Speaker 2>you like, contrarian scientists disputing the link between repetitive head

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<v Speaker 2>injury and ct He gave a keynote speech at the

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<v Speaker 2>World Rugby Concussion Conference in Amsterdam in twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's where he made his remarks that CTA was

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<v Speaker 2>a hypothesis and that he was a denier of certain

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<v Speaker 2>aspects of the research, and that this was a hypothesis

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<v Speaker 2>that they were investigating.

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<v Speaker 1>But just to be clear, the science is in on

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<v Speaker 1>ct Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's no doubt about that. The US National

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<v Speaker 2>Institute of Health issued a statement a couple of years

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<v Speaker 2>back saying that ct was caused by repetitive head injury.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the finding of the world's top scientists. The

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<v Speaker 2>view of scientists associated with the NRL and the AFL

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<v Speaker 2>around whether or not CT is caused by repetitive head injury.

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<v Speaker 2>These are outlier views. These are fringe views, if you like,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what's been you know, we're witnessing in this space.

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<v Speaker 1>From sports media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>At a Senate committee last year, the NRL acknowledged a

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<v Speaker 1>link between head injuries in contact sports and the neurodigenity

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<v Speaker 1>ct But a core member of the NRL's Concussion Research

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<v Speaker 1>Group is also one of the most outspoken critics of

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<v Speaker 1>the link between repeated head injury and CTE, calling it

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<v Speaker 1>an invented disease conjured at a sin air. So how

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<v Speaker 1>does the NRL justify advancing a position that most scientists

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<v Speaker 1>don't agree with and one are the other major codes

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<v Speaker 1>like the AFL doing about the issue today? Journalists and

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<v Speaker 1>contributed to the Saturday paper Wendy Carlisle on the brain

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<v Speaker 1>epidemic killing X athletes and while the science is still

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<v Speaker 1>being contested. It's Thursday, September five. When can you sketch

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<v Speaker 1>it for us what CTE is and how our understanding

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<v Speaker 1>of it has evolved over time.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Ct stands for chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a form of a

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<v Speaker 2>neurodegenerative disease, So that puts it in the same category

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<v Speaker 2>as other kinds of dementias such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, ALS,

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<v Speaker 2>and so on. So those are all dementias and under

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of umbrella of neurodegenerative diseases those dementias sits CTE.

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<v Speaker 2>What's different about CTE from the other dimensions is what

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<v Speaker 2>causes it, and of the cases that have been identified

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<v Speaker 2>around the world, the only known environmental cause of it

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<v Speaker 2>is repetitive head injury. When scientists sort of dissect the brain,

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<v Speaker 2>what they discover is that this disease appears in unique

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<v Speaker 2>parts of the brain, and it occurs, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>lumpy bits of your brain on the outside. The disease

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<v Speaker 2>tends to cluster at the base of those lumps in

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<v Speaker 2>the sulsi, and it really reflects the physics of the hit.

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<v Speaker 2>The force of the hit just shakes it the bottom

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<v Speaker 2>of those bits of the ripley curvy bits of the brain,

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<v Speaker 2>and so that's what they're starting to identify. Now you're

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<v Speaker 2>hearing all about it in former footballers. But what scientists,

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<v Speaker 2>and particularly these are scientists who are leading this research

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States, are finding is that CT is

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<v Speaker 2>not necessarily correlated with the number of concussions somebody's had.

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<v Speaker 2>What it's correlated with is years of exposure to repetitive

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<v Speaker 2>head injury. So these are the hits and the bumps

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<v Speaker 2>that are routinely part of contact and collision sports.

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<v Speaker 4>David wider longer is Brown Sky height Murphy started and

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<v Speaker 4>charming for him and he's down.

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<v Speaker 1>It might be out.

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<v Speaker 2>What they're discovering is that thousands of these hits over

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<v Speaker 2>time is what causes for some people this brain disease.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Wendy, you've taken a closer look at the NRL,

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<v Speaker 1>can you tell us about the first in our old

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<v Speaker 1>player to be diagnosed?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that was Steve Folks.

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<v Speaker 5>Tragic news. The rugby league community left in shock after

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<v Speaker 5>former high profile NRL player and coach Steve Fox passed

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<v Speaker 5>away the Canby build off.

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<v Speaker 2>He died in his late fifties by heart attack. He

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<v Speaker 2>was exercising on his exercise bike at home. They could

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<v Speaker 2>not get a proper diagnosis of why he died. They

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<v Speaker 2>thought it was heart failure, but they couldn't really tell.

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<v Speaker 5>Afternoon, the club has paid tribute to folks, saying his

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<v Speaker 5>legacy as a bulldog and what he did for the

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<v Speaker 5>club will never be forgotten and our hearts go out

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<v Speaker 5>to his family and friends at this difficult time coming

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<v Speaker 5>up shortly, and his family had been talking about Steve

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<v Speaker 5>having you know, memory problems. He kept reintroducing family friends

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<v Speaker 5>to each other and it's started to become a little

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<v Speaker 5>bit of a talking point in the family. So his

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<v Speaker 5>brain was sent to Michael Buckland at the Australian Sports

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<v Speaker 5>Brain Bank because Michael Buckland is the chief neuropathologist for

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<v Speaker 5>the coroner. And Buckland examined his brain and he made

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<v Speaker 5>the CTE diagnosis.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so tell me about the NRL's own research. What

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<v Speaker 1>does their research say.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there was a couple of studies on depression and

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<v Speaker 2>cognition and concussion and they found that the two were

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<v Speaker 2>not correlated. And note also that they're only looking at concussion,

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<v Speaker 2>they're not looking at years of exposure to football. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's a real problem. There's other studies that are looking

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<v Speaker 2>at what they call is the risk of over diagnosis

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<v Speaker 2>in CTE, and they produced research suggesting that half of

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<v Speaker 2>the American men who were diagnosed with depression would fit

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<v Speaker 2>the in life criteria for the diagnosis of CTE. But

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<v Speaker 2>that research ignores the very critical in question of whether

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<v Speaker 2>or not they're exposed to repetitive head injury for ten

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<v Speaker 2>years or more. They're doing a what they call a

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<v Speaker 2>cradle to grave study of former NRL players, which they

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<v Speaker 2>say will take thirty years to determine whether ct is

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<v Speaker 2>caused by repetitive head injury. And you know, why would

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<v Speaker 2>you do such a study when it's already known that

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<v Speaker 2>that's what causes it, And families and former players say

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<v Speaker 2>to you, look, we need help now. Why are they

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<v Speaker 2>doing studies that won't come in for another thirty years

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<v Speaker 2>and who knows if it's actually ever going to be

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<v Speaker 2>completed when what we want now is help And that's

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<v Speaker 2>what players and former players and the families are calling

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<v Speaker 2>out for help now.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the researches that the NRL have been in

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<v Speaker 1>contact with and have worked with, his doctor Rudy Castellani,

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<v Speaker 1>what have you found out about him?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, doctor Castellani is one of the go to doctors

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<v Speaker 2>used by professional sport around the world. You know, doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Castellani has been on the conference circuit in sports concussion

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<v Speaker 2>conferences for many years and so his views on CTE

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<v Speaker 2>have been repeated numerous times in the last decade. He's

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<v Speaker 2>used by the NRL in their research program and he

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<v Speaker 2>is what he calls, quote an unabashed denier of CTE.

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<v Speaker 2>He claims, this is a hypothesis.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm an ambush to CTE is a well defined entity.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think it is clinically. I don't think it

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<v Speaker 3>is pathologically. I don't think the reader progression or whether

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<v Speaker 3>or not whatever it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Now he is one of the key people who is

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<v Speaker 2>part of this paradoxical position by the codes.

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<v Speaker 6>But like to reiterate that the NRL takes the matter

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<v Speaker 6>of repeated head trauma and concussion very seriously. Players safety

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<v Speaker 6>and well being integral to the way in which we.

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<v Speaker 2>Can The NRL made a quite extensive submission to the

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<v Speaker 2>Senate Inquiry into Repetitive head Injury and Contact Sports, and

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<v Speaker 2>they had about twenty pages of their research and Castellani

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<v Speaker 2>was named as one of I think the thirteen researchers

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<v Speaker 2>involved in I think what they call the International Consortium

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<v Speaker 2>of Research into the Brain Health of Former Players. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you recognize the casual relationship between concussion and ct.

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<v Speaker 6>CT in its form as the neuropathological diagnosis made post

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<v Speaker 6>mortem senator, there is an association with repeated head trauma.

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<v Speaker 6>We don't know how strong this association is.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of controversy around that research. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>they proclaim that they are you know, play health and

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<v Speaker 2>safety is at the center of what they do, and

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<v Speaker 2>they say that they're doing everything they can to make

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<v Speaker 2>the game safer. So let's just accept that at face value.

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<v Speaker 2>Their research is trying to re establish whether or not

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<v Speaker 2>CT is caused by repetitive head injury when we actually

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<v Speaker 2>know that it is. And so I think the question

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<v Speaker 2>has to be asked of vested interests who are funding

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<v Speaker 2>research that perhaps threatens their industries.

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<v Speaker 1>The NRL is not the only code to have controversies

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<v Speaker 1>with its research. That's after the break. When do we

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<v Speaker 1>have a number of hicondact sports in Australia and RL

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<v Speaker 1>and AFL are the two biggest with the most at stake.

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<v Speaker 1>What are the steps of these codes take to better

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<v Speaker 1>understand the threat of CTE for their players.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think this is where it starts to get

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting. The research that's done by the NRL and

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<v Speaker 2>the AFL, it's not independent research. The AFL turns over

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<v Speaker 2>a billion dollars a year and they have said for

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<v Speaker 2>more than a decade that they've got these very comprehensive

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<v Speaker 2>research programs into head injury. And they announced their first

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<v Speaker 2>tranch of research, you know, more than a decade ago now,

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty thirteen, and then in twenty twenty two they

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<v Speaker 2>had to admit that that had all been a complete

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<v Speaker 2>fiasco after it was revealed that their top concussion researcher,

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Paul McCrory, was a scientific fraud who plagiarized and

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<v Speaker 2>made up scientific quotes to make it seem that head

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<v Speaker 2>injury and concussion was less of a serious problem that

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<v Speaker 2>it actually is. They announced that they were going to

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<v Speaker 2>do a twenty five million dollar research program and it

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<v Speaker 2>was going to involve brain donation to the Australian Sports

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<v Speaker 2>Brain Bank and also a longitudinal program research program yet

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<v Speaker 2>again trying to establish whether ct is caused by repetitive

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<v Speaker 2>head injury will look now nearly three years on, those

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<v Speaker 2>research programs do not appear to have begun. So once

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<v Speaker 2>again there's a lot of controversy around the AFL's research

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<v Speaker 2>program and whether or not they are actually telling the

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<v Speaker 2>truth about what they're doing. But you know they will.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I when I put questions to the AFL now,

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<v Speaker 2>as I routinely do, they don't even respond now to

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<v Speaker 2>my questions about whether the research has begun or why

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<v Speaker 2>they haven't begun their brain donor program. It's just shrouded

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<v Speaker 2>in mystery.

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<v Speaker 1>Really, if you were to do a comparison with how

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<v Speaker 1>the NRL are grappling with it and how so the

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<v Speaker 1>AFL are grappling with it, what differences do you so.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the really fascinating things that's happening in Australia

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<v Speaker 2>is the launching of class actions by former players against

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<v Speaker 2>the codes and particularly the AFL. So I think one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred former players have launched a class action against the

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<v Speaker 2>AFL alleging that the AFL has done not enough to

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<v Speaker 2>protect them from the effects of repetitive head injury and

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<v Speaker 2>also not been frank with the former players about the

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<v Speaker 2>risks of repetitive head injury. So this class action is

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<v Speaker 2>likely to run for years, and it mirrors the billion

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<v Speaker 2>dollar class action in the United States, where I think

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<v Speaker 2>something like three and a half thousand former NFL players

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<v Speaker 2>took the NFL to court alleging a cover up of

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<v Speaker 2>quite gigantic proportions, alleging that the code had misled the

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<v Speaker 2>players about the dangers of repetitive head injury, allowed them

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<v Speaker 2>to continue to play while they're injured, and then these

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<v Speaker 2>former players have been suffering, you know, long term effects

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<v Speaker 2>of repetitive head injury, and then others have been suffering

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<v Speaker 2>lifelong effects of depression, cognitive damage, and even the development

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<v Speaker 2>of other clinical diagnosis of dementias such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think at last count, the NFL's up for

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<v Speaker 2>around two billion dollars, So you know, it's just not

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<v Speaker 2>going to go away. It's just going to keep getting bigger.

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<v Speaker 2>And the AFL has just announced they're going to spend

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<v Speaker 2>a billion dollars recruiting new players to the game over

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<v Speaker 2>the next ten years, so it's it's a huge amount

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<v Speaker 2>of money. And they say that they're spending twenty five

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<v Speaker 2>million dollars on research, so it speaks volumes to the

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<v Speaker 2>concern the codes have around if not addressing this issue,

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<v Speaker 2>which some would say is not really being addressed, but

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<v Speaker 2>to managing public perceptions around around the issue.

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<v Speaker 1>What else are experts that aren't paid by the big

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<v Speaker 1>sporting codes saying in terms of preventing ct.

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<v Speaker 2>They're saying, reduce contact training sessions.

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<v Speaker 4>He wants the AFL to limits full contact training by

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<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty five, employee and independent concussion spotter, separate the

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<v Speaker 4>club medicos with the power to remove a player from

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<v Speaker 4>the field, improve players education about CTE, and to increase

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<v Speaker 4>the number of players wearing special mouthguards that detect head knocks.

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<v Speaker 2>These were the recommendations of the expert witness in the

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<v Speaker 2>Shane Tuck coronial, but as yet neither code is embracing that.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that they're really grappling with it yet,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think that as the threat of legal action increases,

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<v Speaker 2>the codes will be under greater pressure to demonstrate that

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<v Speaker 2>they're actually reducing the risk to prevent CTE.

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<v Speaker 1>You think will ever be a medium between the tension

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<v Speaker 1>around player safety and the spectacle of the game. You

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<v Speaker 1>reckon that there's some way that that medium can be found.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we love the game, don't we We love the hits,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what we love. We love that competitive physicality of

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<v Speaker 2>the game. These are very big sports, they're very popular.

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<v Speaker 2>But I do think that you know, the games have

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<v Speaker 2>always changed and they've survived. We've had rules that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly in the NRL and the AFL, that have spared

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<v Speaker 2>the game up, and the players are fitter and stronger

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<v Speaker 2>than they have ever been. So it's a simple question

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<v Speaker 2>of physics, isn't it. The hits are bigger there, the

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<v Speaker 2>games are more intense, they're faster. I mean, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think the game will ever end or will die. I

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<v Speaker 2>just think it'll evolve to be safer.

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much, Daniel.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Australia's economy grew zero point

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<v Speaker 1>two percent of the dune quarter and one percent over

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<v Speaker 1>the last year, according to figures from the Australian Bureau

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<v Speaker 1>of Statistics, excluding the COVID nineteen pandemic period. It's the

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<v Speaker 1>weakest rate of annual growth in Australia since ninety one

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<v Speaker 1>ninety two, the year which included the recovery from the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety one recession. The slow down in economic activity

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<v Speaker 1>is in line with the APA's forecasts. However, does make

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<v Speaker 1>any sudden interest rate move from the bank's board unlikely,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Spring bush Fire Outlook shows that increase is

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<v Speaker 1>for large parts of Queensland and the Northern Territory, as

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<v Speaker 1>well as southwest of Victoria and neighbouring areas in South Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>It comes as the Bureau of Meteorology is forecasting an

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<v Speaker 1>increased chance of higher than average temperatures across many parts

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<v Speaker 1>of the country from August to Ober. I'm Daniel James

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<v Speaker 1>seven am will be back tomorrow