WEBVTT - Psychopaths, murder and unmasking incels: Dr Nathan Brooks Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:47.280 Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.280 I had a conversation about an area of criminal investigation 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.920 I find fascinating. I sat down and spoke with doctor 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:58.960 Nathan Brooks, who is a forensic psychologist. Although based overseas, 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.320 we're fortunate enough to say speak with him in person today. 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.920 Nathan discussed with a sum of the high profile and 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:10.560 sensitive cases wherein acts of extreme violence, multiple people have 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:14.440 been killed. We looked at these crimes, what caused these 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.440 crimes and whether these crimes could have been prevented. I 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:19.920 learned a lot from today's chat and I found it 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.560 fascinating delving into the minds of people who cause unimaginable 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.640 pain to victims and communities. We talked about serial killers 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:32.280 and the emerging, frightening trend of lone actors responsible for 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.880 mass casualties. Nathan gave me a fascinating insight into this world. 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:40.600 Dr Nathan Brooks, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:42.120 Gary. Thank you for having me. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.280 Well, I'm excited to have you on the podcast, and 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:48.440 I know our listeners are fascinated by the type of 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.800 work that you do, forensic psychology. It fascinates what goes 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:53.080 on in the mind. 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.400 Yeah, it's a fascinating career and I've been really fortunate 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:59.560 to find myself now in the police and look at 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.720 the applic of that because it's really where forensic psychology 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:04.360 gets to come to. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.920 The fore Yeah. I think so many people talk like 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:09.519 I have a lot of people come up and say, 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.840 how do you become a homicide detective? But just as 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.320 many I'd love to work as a psychologist in that field. 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.239 Yeah. I think the FBI shows and some of the 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.480 Hollywood shows that we've seen over the years have really 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.880 pushed and made people gravitate to wanting to become a 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.840 forensic psychologist. The hard thing is it's a long road 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.040 to get qualified, and even more challenging is once you 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.400 get qualified, there's actually very few jobs around. If you 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.160 wanted to get into the police, there's certainly lots of 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.400 jobs working in the correctional space, but if you want 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.239 to get into police, it's very hard. 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.040 There's not many spots. We were fortunate that you talked 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.079 about the FBI and that were fortunate that have Professor 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.600 An Bergers on the show, but she the original mind 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:57.320 Hunters working with John Douglas and that profile and offenders, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.200 and I found that chat fascinating. 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.480 It is, I mean, it's remarkable, and I think we 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.919 forget now that the work that they pioneered really around 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.240 the early eighties nineteen eighties, it has paved the way 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:14.679 for how we bring psychology into investigations now, and it's 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.440 easy to forget that. I think time in decades passed 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.600 and new people come along, but we forget that. You know, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.880 they set that up. But even if you do look 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.200 at the FBI model now, a large part of the 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.880 FBI is still around that behavioral analysis unit or team 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.079 that they have, and there's four or five different branches 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.400 to that now. So that really evolved for the FBI, 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.760 and it certainly has changed the landscape a lot. 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.000 Something that I picked up from the conversation I had 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.840 with Anne about serial killing, and that was their focus 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.400 to start with all serial offenders, but they're also looking 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:53.320 at trying to profile the mass killings where people strike 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.720 out and the lone actors. Do you agree that sort 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.800 of landscapes changed in a way from serial killing into 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:01.320 these mass killings. 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:05.080 It certainly has, and the US, as it seems, with 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.600 a lot of these really horrific crimes, has really been 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.440 the place where we've seen some of those major differences 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.480 in a shift. So there was the serial killers throughout 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.120 the probably the nineteen seventies through to the nineteen nineties, 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:24.320 which were really challenging over there, and we saw incidents 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.880 of that across other countries across the world, but certainly 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.320 not in the same severity or the same frequency. And 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.640 then from around the nineteen nineties onwards to where we 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.719 are today, there's gradually been a reduction in serial crime, 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.559 but an increase in what we would say these mass 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:44.400 casualty events, and they are occurring with really high frequency 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.360 over in the US and then again across other international countries. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.080 We're seeing that the numbers are also rising at the 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:52.080 same time. 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.560 With serial killing. Do you think part of the practice 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.520 of law enforcement agencies and a better understanding of it 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:03.040 has in part the advantages we've got in forensic science 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.719 and everything else that comes into play these days. Do 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.080 you think that is a reason for the reduction. 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:13.840 We've certainly seen with the forensic science, DNA, improved technology, 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:19.360 mobile phones, CCTV, it's harder to go and commit crimes 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.159 now without leaving some sort of trace or footprint. And 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.520 when serial killing was really rife back in that eighties period, 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.240 we didn't have some of those advancements, so that made 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.880 it very easy for people to go undetected. At the 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:36.960 same time, we've developed much more specialized expertise in policing, 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.920 such as the Behavioral Analysis Unit in the FBI, and 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.760 most countries now have some form of specialist unit for 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:50.080 major crimes or serial offending. So I think technology and 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:54.520 bringing in specialist experts has really changed the landscape around that. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:59.880 The rise of mass casualty type attacks that caused the 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.960 chaos that they do in the tragedy that they do. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.320 My concern is how hard it is to anticipate those, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.440 and I know that's a lot of the work work 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.000 that you do. Would you agree with that it's harder 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.640 to anticipate that type of attack? 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:19.520 It is tricky, as we'll probably talk about today. A 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.760 lot has changed in how police approach that now. So 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.560 for a long time, the police in response was always 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:30.839 detect and intervene. So if there's an issue, will intervene, 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.560 and generally that's by arresting or charging the person. Now 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.719 the model's change to making sure that we can screen 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.760 the issue, then try and understand the issue, then put 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.760 some form of prevention in place, and then basically review 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.919 that and then start again. So we've gotten to the 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.279 place where we're much more proactive around that now rather 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.440 than reactive, so we're not waiting for incidents to happen. 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.240 And when we do identify people that are concerning it's 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.680 about trying to understand the nature of that concern and 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.680 then put some form of support and prevention process around them. 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.600 But of course the limitation of that is we only 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.480 know what we know, so we only know about the 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.239 people that are coming through to us and we're getting 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.080 the information around. If we don't get that though, and 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.640 there's someone out there that we're unaware of, then we're 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:24.520 very vulnerable. 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.520 Okay. And the intervention side of it. I spent a 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:32.400 long time in as a homicide detective and my frustration 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.240 looking back at the career is that you come in 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.640 when it's too late, unless you're working the case with 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.600 a serial killer, but invariably it was a murder and 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.840 you're coming in at the end. So this intervention identifying 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.000 risk factors, I would imagine it'd be very rewarding. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.320 It's hard. I think you'd have to ask the police 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.640 that are doing the real groundwork there because it has 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.800 it's required police to nearly take on social worker type roles, 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:03.360 which I think so probably fine, challenging or not necessarily 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.560 what they got into the role for and realizing that 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.200 exit to get out and talk to people and engage 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:14.119 with them and be supportive and put plans in place 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.400 and be available to talk to them if they need to, 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.440 ring them, go outter coffee with them, try and help 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.480 mold and shape them into a more pro social pathway. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.760 And get in front of them and change the way 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.240 that they maybe perceive police. And I think that is 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:33.760 why we're seeing some good results. But again, as I 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.080 was mentioning before, it is only who we know that 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:38.880 we get to do that response with. 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.360 Okay, we've jumped straight into it. Let's find out a 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.200 little bit about yourself. What got you into this field 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.360 of expertise and what studies have you done to become 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:49.720 a forensic psychologist. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:51.679 So study for a long time. I think I did 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.960 about eleven years all up with the pH d, which 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.240 I've never intended to at the beginning. 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:57.959 Easy task. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.160 Yeah, And look, initially I probably went in a bit 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:03.760 blind and thought psychology was interesting, and I was very 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.040 much keen on sports psychology and the way things aligned. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.480 At the time, sports psychology wasn't available, so the option 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.760 was really standard normal psychology where you sit there and 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:19.199 talk to people, or forensic which seemed much more intriguing 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.600 and exciting, and I gravitated to that and I liked 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.160 the challenge. I was doing triflons at the time, so 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:29.520 I was very probably goal focused and liked to be tested. 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.560 And then as I got into forensic psychology, I then 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.839 came across psychopaths, and I did my PhD on psychopaths, 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:42.080 and it was fascinating because they were folks that did 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.160 everything different to what normal people did. And you know, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.040 we grow up and we learn about people, but we 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:51.560 don't really ever learn about psychopaths unless you've had certain 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.760 experiences or challenging upbringing where you might have been targeted 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.959 or victimized by them. But psychopaths are the ones that 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.440 stay calm and cool under pres They are the ones 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.840 that are a few steps ahead. And that was really 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.720 intriguing to look at those fellows, and that kept me 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:12.440 really pushing through forensic psychology and then wanting to work 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.360 with high risk and high harm offenders that present with 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:22.079 some pretty I think difficult offending behavior and difficult interpersonal styles. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.120 And so for much of my early career I spent 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:31.760 a long time in the treatment space with probably thirty 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.680 different offenders a week. I was working with for several 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:39.000 years and then moved into specializing in higher sex offenders, 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.920 and then had a brief stint working in academia lecturing 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:48.160 in forensic psychology before jumping into the New Zealand Police. 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.559 Where did you get the access to that many criminals 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.400 to work with was that through creative services, So. 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.240 Part of it was through coreative services, but I was 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.880 working as a contracting forensic psychologists in a private capacity 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:07.360 for quite a few years, and corrections are always needing 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:13.360 private independent practitioners to assist them, but also to send 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:17.240 them send offenders for treatment in the community. So a 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.440 lot of it was there's the treatment aspect, but in 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:25.160 many ways it's actually having conversations with offenders and trying 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.920 to build a relationship with them where they haven't actually 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.440 had a lot of stability or predictability in their life, 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.080 and a lot of the time it's just holding space 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.240 for them to actually feel like they could have a 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.760 trusting relationship with someone and open up and talk about 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:42.920 the problems in their life because many of them have 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.760 never had that opportunity. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.520 Didn't have the people that they could turn to. No, 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.560 the obvious question that I ask if you've done a 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.319 PhD in psychopaths, nature and nurture, have you got a 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.720 learning like that question gets asked so many times and 0:11:58.080 --> 0:11:58.800 different views. 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.200 It's a combination of both. I don't think. I don't 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:07.080 think exclusively it's genetics, but there's certainly a genetic aspect 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.800 to that, and then the environment can either really dial 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.559 up those traits and make them much more maladaptive or dysfunctional, 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:20.720 or potentially it could keep them somewhat contained. I always 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.760 go back to the scenario that you can have potentially 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.360 the genetic makeup to be psychopathic, but if you've got 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:32.400 a good upbringing, a good education, you learn pro social 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.480 ways to express those tendencies. If you're able to go 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:40.400 and do sport, if you're able to find ways to 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:45.200 community Kate, it could be driving fast car, skydiving, you 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.719 can find ways to manage those if you have a 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.000 level of self awareness as well. I think people become 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.000 very much handicapped though, if they have some of those 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.880 tendencies and then they are also dealt with a difficult childhood, 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.520 because it really puts that person on really a one 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.559 way path to offending or something else. 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.480 It's interesting you answer it that way. I had the 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.720 fortune to speak to a neuroscientist from the United States 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.400 that did pet scans on the whole range of people 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.120 that were considered psychopaths, and they were some of the 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.920 country's most notorious psychopaths that had been brought down for 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.360 the crimes that they've done. And without going into the 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.800 neuroscience because I've got no idea what I'm talking about. 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.480 He basically said with a PET scan of their brain 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.960 that they had a common feature in there. So he 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.760 needed a reference point and did scans on people that 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:38.920 weren't identified as a psychopath. James Fallon was his own. Yes, 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.400 PET scanned his own brain and that had the same predisposition, 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.320 all the same that features as the psychopaths. And he 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.080 reasoned that he grew up in a loving environment, a 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.440 nurturing environment where he was cared for and that and 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.320 that probably steerred him in those formative years till the 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.760 age of three or whatever, steered him in a direction. 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.000 And then with the people that had the psychopaths that 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:06.440 had played out in the criminal world, they didn't have 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.400 that nurturing around them, they didn't have that family environment. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.040 They said that might make a difference. So I take 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.520 on what you're saying that's a combination of both. 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.560 Yeah, absolutely, and that his book's really interesting where he 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.280 does talk about that. Yeah, he had the brain structure 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.800 as he described to be the same as serial killers 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.200 looking that he was assessing. But yeah, he certainly I 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.880 think he says he pushed push, pushed lots of boundaries, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.000 and he could be quite dominant and overbearing at times. 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.280 But yeah, it didn't go into becoming full fledged violence. 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.320 Yeah, it was channeled in a positive way. Or he 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:47.320 could talking to psychopaths. And you said, how some people 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.520 that plays out? Is my understanding, it's just a general 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.960 talk that you know, some of the headed industries are psychopaths, 0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:00.560 successful soldiers, all sorts of different even sportsmen, all sorts 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.920 of personalities might have that psychopathic trait, but they stir 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.800 it towards another thing. Is that Is that true? 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.120 Yeah, it's interesting, you know, having a level of boldness 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.920 and ruthlessness, some of those traits can be quite desirable 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.360 for certain occupations, maybe even the police. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.880 I'm just pulling back on I was thinking that, but 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:22.440 I'm not going to. 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:28.400 And you do get some psychopathic folks that are skilled 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:34.080 enough to again modify those traits and rather than going 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:39.840 and violently stabbing someone, they might go and ruthlessly cul 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:44.120 people in organizations. So there's some really interesting books. You know. 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.400 John Ronson wrote a book and he talked about our 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.480 Dunlap who has known aed Texas I think Texas chainsaw 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.200 Our or something like that. Who would go into organizations 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.080 and he worked for Sunbeam for a while and basically 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.440 just he would just go in and cut and fire 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.400 hundreds of employees in a very ruthless way. Bernie Madoff, 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.720 who was the head of the Nasdaq ran I think 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.120 it was a thirteen billion dollar ponzi scheme over a 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.240 couple of decades over in New York. He's often considered 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.960 the poster boy for corporate psychopaths. So we do see 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:20.720 that Summer are quite capable of channeling those traits without 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.480 needing to get their hands dirty in. 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.160 That spec Understand what you're saying, Yeah, it's interesting and 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.560 the different way they steer their life. So the work 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.720 you do with New Zealand place, what'said involved? What do 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:35.480 you engage with? 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.280 So I'm an operational psychologist in our behavioral science unit 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:45.040 over there, and we have two operational psychologist roles that 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.640 serves the country and within that we also run the 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.760 VY Class, so the Violent Crime Analysis Linkage system where 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.960 we track stranger sex crimes across the country and that's 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.080 got three analysts that are staffing that, and then we 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.000 also have a sworn senior sergeant that sits over the 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.639 top of our unit as well, and so our unit 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:13.680 really is brought into major crime investigations to provide operational support, 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:18.480 particularly when we have very serious crimes just homicide, could 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:22.199 be terrorism offenses, major sexual offenses, all the way through 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.879 to arsons and other sorts of offending, and we provide 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.720 a range of different services. Sometimes it's very much advice 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.760 on the fly as a homicide is evolving or emerging 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.240 in the early stages of the investigation. Other times it 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.760 will be risk assessments around what do we need to 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:43.960 know about this person and how concerning are they to 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:49.320 the community. We also occasionally will do the classic criminal 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.119 profile of a who done at crime, but most of 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:54.520 them are solved very quickly now so there's not the 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:59.240 need for criminal profiles. And then also things like cold 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.960 case reviews and a lot of work around interviewing as well. 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:07.160 Yeah, and I know you're familiar with her, doctor Sarah Ule. 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.760 I work closely with her in New South Wales Police 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:14.960 and I not use her on all the investigations I 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.159 had some there wasn't a need for the role that 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.880 she could fulfill, the tricky ones, the ones that it's 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.520 not blatantly obvious for what has occurred here, or an 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.320 interpretation of a crime scene as you said, or we've 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.280 interviewing of what's the bets buttons to push? Is that 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.960 Carrotle's stick? Which way to approach that? I found it 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.520 so beneficial and I'm surprised, and I've been out of 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.639 New South Wales Police for a couple of years. I 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.160 don't know what the status is now, but we didn't 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.000 properly resource that. Like I think it is a tool 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.520 that can be really used in the difficult investigations. I 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:48.880 see that's the role where you guys come in. 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.200 I found that it is really well received and certainly 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.840 over in New Zealand it's a major crimes the lead 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.960 investigators and also the investigated team, but they often really 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.280 are quite receptive of that advice. It's rare that we 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.240 get pushed back, and I think that the challenges. Of course, 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:13.160 it's your reputation and what you provide for a product 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.280 and service. In some ways, people keep coming back to 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.000 you if you provide good service, but if you provide 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.560 you know, poor service, or go to sort of far 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.880 one way or the other way, or you know, don't 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.960 quite tailor it to what the investigation needs. The unit 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.159 can become vulnerable in that respect. So it's there's a 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.560 constant process there of needing to make sure what you're 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.480 doing really holds up and supports investigations. 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.360 And I think it's also important that investigators understand what 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.680 you can bring to the investigation. Yes, I saw some 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:51.879 misunderstandings in working with Sarah. Other investigators thought this is 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.320 what they can provide to the investigation, but wasn't the 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:56.119 type of thing that she could. 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.719 Yeah, there's the risk that someone thinks that you're going 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:00.679 to come out and say of it or find the 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.840 magical clue. And you know, policing is as you know, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:08.680 it's a combination of different areas of specialty coming together 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.359 to get the end product and the end outcome. And 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.920 it's really you know, one person or one unit. It's 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.160 a cumulative effort. And sometimes I think even if we're 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.800 adding one percent towards helping the investigation and you've got 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:26.280 another unit adding one percent, those small one percents come 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:27.719 together and they can be the difference. 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.560 They're the things that make a difference with a case 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.560 being solved or not. You invariably get one shot at 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:35.160 it and then if you miss it, and that one 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.840 or two percent. But with Sarah, I found that what 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.480 I liked working with a forensic psychologist was a different take, 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.440 a different perspective. We get a little bit of group 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.720 think in policing. We tend to think the same and 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.240 it's good to have someone independent, someone outside the circle 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.800 that looks at it from a different view. And quite 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.119 often with Sarah, have you considered this? And I'd be 0:20:56.119 --> 0:21:00.360 looking at it. Go No, I haven't a very good idea, see, 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.280 but I found that beneficial. It was a really powerful, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:04.879 powerful tool to have. 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.199 Yeah, it's good to sometimes have someone that can step 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.240 back and bring that different perspective. And often psychologists are 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.679 going to look at the person and try and in 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.879 some ways deconstruct the puzzle and then rebuild it and 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.560 look at what does that then give us for the investigation, 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.119 So that might be understanding the functionality of the behavior 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.560 all the way through to let's go and approach the 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.840 person and try this style of engagement, because that's the 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:35.960 type of individual they are. And if we go in 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.480 really hot and in our suits and quite brazen and 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:43.000 kick the door in, that's not going to get their 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:44.960 response and they're not going to engage with this and 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:52.080 then we're going to miss the opportunity to interview with them. 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.240 Serial killing, the type of investigations we're talking about. I 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.960 read your book Mass Casually over the weekend and it's 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.080 you me up to speed on quite a few things, 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:06.000 and I found a fascinating, fascinating read and putting sort 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.920 of might take in it from a homicide detective and 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:12.679 your thoughts and theories. What I found particularly interesting was 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.040 the onset of the loan actors in the way that 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:20.240 they're starting to leave their mark. Sadly, because when someone 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.520 commits an offense of mass casual these a lot of 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:28.000 lives are destroyed. What's your involvement in that type of work? 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:32.400 So our unit really is the main unit within New 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:37.159 Zealand that would service persons of concern, whether it be 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:40.040 a sort of a fixation or grievance point of view, 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:44.199 or also a terrorism aspect. So we would provide the 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:50.439 operational consultation on those matters. And that's an ongoing area 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.000 as it is in Australia, where there's people that are 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:58.280 often presenting with concerns or concerning behaviors and the task 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:01.159 then is to try and understand the extent of that concern. 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:03.359 I always think it's good to boil it down to 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.720 looking at two factors, so their intent and their capability. 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.320