1
00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880
Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

2
00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

3
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

4
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

5
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

6
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

7
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

8
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

9
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

10
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

11
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

12
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

13
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:47,280
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

14
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,280
Speaker 1: I had a conversation about an area of criminal investigation

15
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 1: I find fascinating. I sat down and spoke with doctor

16
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 1: Nathan Brooks, who is a forensic psychologist. Although based overseas,

17
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: we're fortunate enough to say speak with him in person today.

18
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 1: Nathan discussed with a sum of the high profile and

19
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 1: sensitive cases wherein acts of extreme violence, multiple people have

20
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,440
Speaker 1: been killed. We looked at these crimes, what caused these

21
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,440
Speaker 1: crimes and whether these crimes could have been prevented. I

22
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 1: learned a lot from today's chat and I found it

23
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 1: fascinating delving into the minds of people who cause unimaginable

24
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 1: pain to victims and communities. We talked about serial killers

25
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,280
Speaker 1: and the emerging, frightening trend of lone actors responsible for

26
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 1: mass casualties. Nathan gave me a fascinating insight into this world.

27
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,600
Speaker 1: Dr Nathan Brooks, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

28
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 2: Gary. Thank you for having me.

29
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,280
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to have you on the podcast, and

30
00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 1: I know our listeners are fascinated by the type of

31
00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 1: work that you do, forensic psychology. It fascinates what goes

32
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,080
Speaker 1: on in the mind.

33
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fascinating career and I've been really fortunate

34
00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 2: to find myself now in the police and look at

35
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 2: the applic of that because it's really where forensic psychology

36
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 2: gets to come to.

37
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,920
Speaker 1: The fore Yeah. I think so many people talk like

38
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,519
Speaker 1: I have a lot of people come up and say,

39
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,840
Speaker 1: how do you become a homicide detective? But just as

40
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: many I'd love to work as a psychologist in that field.

41
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the FBI shows and some of the

42
00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,480
Speaker 2: Hollywood shows that we've seen over the years have really

43
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 2: pushed and made people gravitate to wanting to become a

44
00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,840
Speaker 2: forensic psychologist. The hard thing is it's a long road

45
00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,040
Speaker 2: to get qualified, and even more challenging is once you

46
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,400
Speaker 2: get qualified, there's actually very few jobs around. If you

47
00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 2: wanted to get into the police, there's certainly lots of

48
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,400
Speaker 2: jobs working in the correctional space, but if you want

49
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,239
Speaker 2: to get into police, it's very hard.

50
00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 1: There's not many spots. We were fortunate that you talked

51
00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,079
Speaker 1: about the FBI and that were fortunate that have Professor

52
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,600
Speaker 1: An Bergers on the show, but she the original mind

53
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: Hunters working with John Douglas and that profile and offenders,

54
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,200
Speaker 1: and I found that chat fascinating.

55
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,480
Speaker 2: It is, I mean, it's remarkable, and I think we

56
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,919
Speaker 2: forget now that the work that they pioneered really around

57
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,240
Speaker 2: the early eighties nineteen eighties, it has paved the way

58
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,679
Speaker 2: for how we bring psychology into investigations now, and it's

59
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,440
Speaker 2: easy to forget that. I think time in decades passed

60
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 2: and new people come along, but we forget that. You know,

61
00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,880
Speaker 2: they set that up. But even if you do look

62
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 2: at the FBI model now, a large part of the

63
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 2: FBI is still around that behavioral analysis unit or team

64
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,079
Speaker 2: that they have, and there's four or five different branches

65
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 2: to that now. So that really evolved for the FBI,

66
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 2: and it certainly has changed the landscape a lot.

67
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 1: Something that I picked up from the conversation I had

68
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,840
Speaker 1: with Anne about serial killing, and that was their focus

69
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 1: to start with all serial offenders, but they're also looking

70
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: at trying to profile the mass killings where people strike

71
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: out and the lone actors. Do you agree that sort

72
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 1: of landscapes changed in a way from serial killing into

73
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,320
Speaker 1: these mass killings.

74
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 2: It certainly has, and the US, as it seems, with

75
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 2: a lot of these really horrific crimes, has really been

76
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,440
Speaker 2: the place where we've seen some of those major differences

77
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 2: in a shift. So there was the serial killers throughout

78
00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 2: the probably the nineteen seventies through to the nineteen nineties,

79
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:24,320
Speaker 2: which were really challenging over there, and we saw incidents

80
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,880
Speaker 2: of that across other countries across the world, but certainly

81
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,320
Speaker 2: not in the same severity or the same frequency. And

82
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 2: then from around the nineteen nineties onwards to where we

83
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,719
Speaker 2: are today, there's gradually been a reduction in serial crime,

84
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,559
Speaker 2: but an increase in what we would say these mass

85
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 2: casualty events, and they are occurring with really high frequency

86
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,360
Speaker 2: over in the US and then again across other international countries.

87
00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,080
Speaker 2: We're seeing that the numbers are also rising at the

88
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:52,080
Speaker 2: same time.

89
00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 1: With serial killing. Do you think part of the practice

90
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,520
Speaker 1: of law enforcement agencies and a better understanding of it

91
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,040
Speaker 1: has in part the advantages we've got in forensic science

92
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,719
Speaker 1: and everything else that comes into play these days. Do

93
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,080
Speaker 1: you think that is a reason for the reduction.

94
00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:13,840
Speaker 2: We've certainly seen with the forensic science, DNA, improved technology,

95
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:19,360
Speaker 2: mobile phones, CCTV, it's harder to go and commit crimes

96
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,159
Speaker 2: now without leaving some sort of trace or footprint. And

97
00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,520
Speaker 2: when serial killing was really rife back in that eighties period,

98
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,240
Speaker 2: we didn't have some of those advancements, so that made

99
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 2: it very easy for people to go undetected. At the

100
00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 2: same time, we've developed much more specialized expertise in policing,

101
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,920
Speaker 2: such as the Behavioral Analysis Unit in the FBI, and

102
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 2: most countries now have some form of specialist unit for

103
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,080
Speaker 2: major crimes or serial offending. So I think technology and

104
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 2: bringing in specialist experts has really changed the landscape around that.

105
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,880
Speaker 1: The rise of mass casualty type attacks that caused the

106
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 1: chaos that they do in the tragedy that they do.

107
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,320
Speaker 1: My concern is how hard it is to anticipate those,

108
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 1: and I know that's a lot of the work work

109
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 1: that you do. Would you agree with that it's harder

110
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 1: to anticipate that type of attack?

111
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 2: It is tricky, as we'll probably talk about today. A

112
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 2: lot has changed in how police approach that now. So

113
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,560
Speaker 2: for a long time, the police in response was always

114
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,839
Speaker 2: detect and intervene. So if there's an issue, will intervene,

115
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,560
Speaker 2: and generally that's by arresting or charging the person. Now

116
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,719
Speaker 2: the model's change to making sure that we can screen

117
00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 2: the issue, then try and understand the issue, then put

118
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,760
Speaker 2: some form of prevention in place, and then basically review

119
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,919
Speaker 2: that and then start again. So we've gotten to the

120
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,279
Speaker 2: place where we're much more proactive around that now rather

121
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,440
Speaker 2: than reactive, so we're not waiting for incidents to happen.

122
00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,240
Speaker 2: And when we do identify people that are concerning it's

123
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 2: about trying to understand the nature of that concern and

124
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,680
Speaker 2: then put some form of support and prevention process around them.

125
00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 2: But of course the limitation of that is we only

126
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 2: know what we know, so we only know about the

127
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,239
Speaker 2: people that are coming through to us and we're getting

128
00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,080
Speaker 2: the information around. If we don't get that though, and

129
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 2: there's someone out there that we're unaware of, then we're

130
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 2: very vulnerable.

131
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 1: Okay. And the intervention side of it. I spent a

132
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 1: long time in as a homicide detective and my frustration

133
00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 1: looking back at the career is that you come in

134
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 1: when it's too late, unless you're working the case with

135
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,600
Speaker 1: a serial killer, but invariably it was a murder and

136
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,840
Speaker 1: you're coming in at the end. So this intervention identifying

137
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 1: risk factors, I would imagine it'd be very rewarding.

138
00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,320
Speaker 2: It's hard. I think you'd have to ask the police

139
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,640
Speaker 2: that are doing the real groundwork there because it has

140
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 2: it's required police to nearly take on social worker type roles,

141
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,360
Speaker 2: which I think so probably fine, challenging or not necessarily

142
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,560
Speaker 2: what they got into the role for and realizing that

143
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 2: exit to get out and talk to people and engage

144
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,119
Speaker 2: with them and be supportive and put plans in place

145
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 2: and be available to talk to them if they need to,

146
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,440
Speaker 2: ring them, go outter coffee with them, try and help

147
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 2: mold and shape them into a more pro social pathway.

148
00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 2: And get in front of them and change the way

149
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,240
Speaker 2: that they maybe perceive police. And I think that is

150
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,760
Speaker 2: why we're seeing some good results. But again, as I

151
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,080
Speaker 2: was mentioning before, it is only who we know that

152
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 2: we get to do that response with.

153
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,360
Speaker 1: Okay, we've jumped straight into it. Let's find out a

154
00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 1: little bit about yourself. What got you into this field

155
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 1: of expertise and what studies have you done to become

156
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:49,720
Speaker 1: a forensic psychologist.

157
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,679
Speaker 2: So study for a long time. I think I did

158
00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,960
Speaker 2: about eleven years all up with the pH d, which

159
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,240
Speaker 2: I've never intended to at the beginning.

160
00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:57,959
Speaker 1: Easy task.

161
00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, initially I probably went in a bit

162
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,760
Speaker 2: blind and thought psychology was interesting, and I was very

163
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,040
Speaker 2: much keen on sports psychology and the way things aligned.

164
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 2: At the time, sports psychology wasn't available, so the option

165
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 2: was really standard normal psychology where you sit there and

166
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,199
Speaker 2: talk to people, or forensic which seemed much more intriguing

167
00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 2: and exciting, and I gravitated to that and I liked

168
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,160
Speaker 2: the challenge. I was doing triflons at the time, so

169
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 2: I was very probably goal focused and liked to be tested.

170
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,560
Speaker 2: And then as I got into forensic psychology, I then

171
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,839
Speaker 2: came across psychopaths, and I did my PhD on psychopaths,

172
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 2: and it was fascinating because they were folks that did

173
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 2: everything different to what normal people did. And you know,

174
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,040
Speaker 2: we grow up and we learn about people, but we

175
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,560
Speaker 2: don't really ever learn about psychopaths unless you've had certain

176
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 2: experiences or challenging upbringing where you might have been targeted

177
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,959
Speaker 2: or victimized by them. But psychopaths are the ones that

178
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,440
Speaker 2: stay calm and cool under pres They are the ones

179
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,840
Speaker 2: that are a few steps ahead. And that was really

180
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 2: intriguing to look at those fellows, and that kept me

181
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,440
Speaker 2: really pushing through forensic psychology and then wanting to work

182
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 2: with high risk and high harm offenders that present with

183
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:22,079
Speaker 2: some pretty I think difficult offending behavior and difficult interpersonal styles.

184
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 2: And so for much of my early career I spent

185
00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,760
Speaker 2: a long time in the treatment space with probably thirty

186
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,680
Speaker 2: different offenders a week. I was working with for several

187
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 2: years and then moved into specializing in higher sex offenders,

188
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,920
Speaker 2: and then had a brief stint working in academia lecturing

189
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,160
Speaker 2: in forensic psychology before jumping into the New Zealand Police.

190
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,559
Speaker 1: Where did you get the access to that many criminals

191
00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 1: to work with was that through creative services, So.

192
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 2: Part of it was through coreative services, but I was

193
00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 2: working as a contracting forensic psychologists in a private capacity

194
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 2: for quite a few years, and corrections are always needing

195
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 2: private independent practitioners to assist them, but also to send

196
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 2: them send offenders for treatment in the community. So a

197
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,440
Speaker 2: lot of it was there's the treatment aspect, but in

198
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 2: many ways it's actually having conversations with offenders and trying

199
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 2: to build a relationship with them where they haven't actually

200
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,440
Speaker 2: had a lot of stability or predictability in their life,

201
00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,080
Speaker 2: and a lot of the time it's just holding space

202
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,240
Speaker 2: for them to actually feel like they could have a

203
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 2: trusting relationship with someone and open up and talk about

204
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 2: the problems in their life because many of them have

205
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 2: never had that opportunity.

206
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 1: Didn't have the people that they could turn to. No,

207
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,560
Speaker 1: the obvious question that I ask if you've done a

208
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,319
Speaker 1: PhD in psychopaths, nature and nurture, have you got a

209
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,720
Speaker 1: learning like that question gets asked so many times and

210
00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 1: different views.

211
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,200
Speaker 2: It's a combination of both. I don't think. I don't

212
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,080
Speaker 2: think exclusively it's genetics, but there's certainly a genetic aspect

213
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,800
Speaker 2: to that, and then the environment can either really dial

214
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,559
Speaker 2: up those traits and make them much more maladaptive or dysfunctional,

215
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:20,720
Speaker 2: or potentially it could keep them somewhat contained. I always

216
00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,760
Speaker 2: go back to the scenario that you can have potentially

217
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 2: the genetic makeup to be psychopathic, but if you've got

218
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,400
Speaker 2: a good upbringing, a good education, you learn pro social

219
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 2: ways to express those tendencies. If you're able to go

220
00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,400
Speaker 2: and do sport, if you're able to find ways to

221
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,200
Speaker 2: community Kate, it could be driving fast car, skydiving, you

222
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,719
Speaker 2: can find ways to manage those if you have a

223
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 2: level of self awareness as well. I think people become

224
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,000
Speaker 2: very much handicapped though, if they have some of those

225
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,880
Speaker 2: tendencies and then they are also dealt with a difficult childhood,

226
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 2: because it really puts that person on really a one

227
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,559
Speaker 2: way path to offending or something else.

228
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 1: It's interesting you answer it that way. I had the

229
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 1: fortune to speak to a neuroscientist from the United States

230
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 1: that did pet scans on the whole range of people

231
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,120
Speaker 1: that were considered psychopaths, and they were some of the

232
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 1: country's most notorious psychopaths that had been brought down for

233
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,360
Speaker 1: the crimes that they've done. And without going into the

234
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 1: neuroscience because I've got no idea what I'm talking about.

235
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 1: He basically said with a PET scan of their brain

236
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,960
Speaker 1: that they had a common feature in there. So he

237
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,760
Speaker 1: needed a reference point and did scans on people that

238
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,920
Speaker 1: weren't identified as a psychopath. James Fallon was his own. Yes,

239
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,400
Speaker 1: PET scanned his own brain and that had the same predisposition,

240
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,320
Speaker 1: all the same that features as the psychopaths. And he

241
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,080
Speaker 1: reasoned that he grew up in a loving environment, a

242
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,440
Speaker 1: nurturing environment where he was cared for and that and

243
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,320
Speaker 1: that probably steerred him in those formative years till the

244
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 1: age of three or whatever, steered him in a direction.

245
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,000
Speaker 1: And then with the people that had the psychopaths that

246
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,440
Speaker 1: had played out in the criminal world, they didn't have

247
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,400
Speaker 1: that nurturing around them, they didn't have that family environment.

248
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 1: They said that might make a difference. So I take

249
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 1: on what you're saying that's a combination of both.

250
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and that his book's really interesting where he

251
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 2: does talk about that. Yeah, he had the brain structure

252
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,800
Speaker 2: as he described to be the same as serial killers

253
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 2: looking that he was assessing. But yeah, he certainly I

254
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,880
Speaker 2: think he says he pushed push, pushed lots of boundaries,

255
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,000
Speaker 2: and he could be quite dominant and overbearing at times.

256
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, it didn't go into becoming full fledged violence.

257
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was channeled in a positive way. Or he

258
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,320
Speaker 1: could talking to psychopaths. And you said, how some people

259
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,520
Speaker 1: that plays out? Is my understanding, it's just a general

260
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,960
Speaker 1: talk that you know, some of the headed industries are psychopaths,

261
00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 1: successful soldiers, all sorts of different even sportsmen, all sorts

262
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 1: of personalities might have that psychopathic trait, but they stir

263
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 1: it towards another thing. Is that Is that true?

264
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting, you know, having a level of boldness

265
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,920
Speaker 2: and ruthlessness, some of those traits can be quite desirable

266
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,360
Speaker 2: for certain occupations, maybe even the police.

267
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,880
Speaker 1: I'm just pulling back on I was thinking that, but

268
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 1: I'm not going to.

269
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 2: And you do get some psychopathic folks that are skilled

270
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:34,080
Speaker 2: enough to again modify those traits and rather than going

271
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 2: and violently stabbing someone, they might go and ruthlessly cul

272
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,120
Speaker 2: people in organizations. So there's some really interesting books. You know.

273
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 2: John Ronson wrote a book and he talked about our

274
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 2: Dunlap who has known aed Texas I think Texas chainsaw

275
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,200
Speaker 2: Our or something like that. Who would go into organizations

276
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,080
Speaker 2: and he worked for Sunbeam for a while and basically

277
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 2: just he would just go in and cut and fire

278
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 2: hundreds of employees in a very ruthless way. Bernie Madoff,

279
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 2: who was the head of the Nasdaq ran I think

280
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,120
Speaker 2: it was a thirteen billion dollar ponzi scheme over a

281
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 2: couple of decades over in New York. He's often considered

282
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 2: the poster boy for corporate psychopaths. So we do see

283
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 2: that Summer are quite capable of channeling those traits without

284
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 2: needing to get their hands dirty in.

285
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 1: That spec Understand what you're saying, Yeah, it's interesting and

286
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,560
Speaker 1: the different way they steer their life. So the work

287
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 1: you do with New Zealand place, what'said involved? What do

288
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 1: you engage with?

289
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 2: So I'm an operational psychologist in our behavioral science unit

290
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 2: over there, and we have two operational psychologist roles that

291
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 2: serves the country and within that we also run the

292
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 2: VY Class, so the Violent Crime Analysis Linkage system where

293
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,960
Speaker 2: we track stranger sex crimes across the country and that's

294
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,080
Speaker 2: got three analysts that are staffing that, and then we

295
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,000
Speaker 2: also have a sworn senior sergeant that sits over the

296
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,639
Speaker 2: top of our unit as well, and so our unit

297
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:13,680
Speaker 2: really is brought into major crime investigations to provide operational support,

298
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,480
Speaker 2: particularly when we have very serious crimes just homicide, could

299
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,199
Speaker 2: be terrorism offenses, major sexual offenses, all the way through

300
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,879
Speaker 2: to arsons and other sorts of offending, and we provide

301
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 2: a range of different services. Sometimes it's very much advice

302
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 2: on the fly as a homicide is evolving or emerging

303
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 2: in the early stages of the investigation. Other times it

304
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 2: will be risk assessments around what do we need to

305
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 2: know about this person and how concerning are they to

306
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 2: the community. We also occasionally will do the classic criminal

307
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,119
Speaker 2: profile of a who done at crime, but most of

308
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 2: them are solved very quickly now so there's not the

309
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 2: need for criminal profiles. And then also things like cold

310
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 2: case reviews and a lot of work around interviewing as well.

311
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know you're familiar with her, doctor Sarah Ule.

312
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 1: I work closely with her in New South Wales Police

313
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,960
Speaker 1: and I not use her on all the investigations I

314
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: had some there wasn't a need for the role that

315
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 1: she could fulfill, the tricky ones, the ones that it's

316
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: not blatantly obvious for what has occurred here, or an

317
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: interpretation of a crime scene as you said, or we've

318
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 1: interviewing of what's the bets buttons to push? Is that

319
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,960
Speaker 1: Carrotle's stick? Which way to approach that? I found it

320
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 1: so beneficial and I'm surprised, and I've been out of

321
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 1: New South Wales Police for a couple of years. I

322
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,160
Speaker 1: don't know what the status is now, but we didn't

323
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 1: properly resource that. Like I think it is a tool

324
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 1: that can be really used in the difficult investigations. I

325
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,880
Speaker 1: see that's the role where you guys come in.

326
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,200
Speaker 2: I found that it is really well received and certainly

327
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 2: over in New Zealand it's a major crimes the lead

328
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,960
Speaker 2: investigators and also the investigated team, but they often really

329
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 2: are quite receptive of that advice. It's rare that we

330
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 2: get pushed back, and I think that the challenges. Of course,

331
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,160
Speaker 2: it's your reputation and what you provide for a product

332
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 2: and service. In some ways, people keep coming back to

333
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 2: you if you provide good service, but if you provide

334
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 2: you know, poor service, or go to sort of far

335
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,880
Speaker 2: one way or the other way, or you know, don't

336
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,960
Speaker 2: quite tailor it to what the investigation needs. The unit

337
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 2: can become vulnerable in that respect. So it's there's a

338
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 2: constant process there of needing to make sure what you're

339
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 2: doing really holds up and supports investigations.

340
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,360
Speaker 1: And I think it's also important that investigators understand what

341
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,680
Speaker 1: you can bring to the investigation. Yes, I saw some

342
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 1: misunderstandings in working with Sarah. Other investigators thought this is

343
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 1: what they can provide to the investigation, but wasn't the

344
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,119
Speaker 1: type of thing that she could.

345
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the risk that someone thinks that you're going

346
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 2: to come out and say of it or find the

347
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 2: magical clue. And you know, policing is as you know,

348
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,680
Speaker 2: it's a combination of different areas of specialty coming together

349
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 2: to get the end product and the end outcome. And

350
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 2: it's really you know, one person or one unit. It's

351
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 2: a cumulative effort. And sometimes I think even if we're

352
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: adding one percent towards helping the investigation and you've got

353
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 2: another unit adding one percent, those small one percents come

354
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:27,719
Speaker 2: together and they can be the difference.

355
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: They're the things that make a difference with a case

356
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 1: being solved or not. You invariably get one shot at

357
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 1: it and then if you miss it, and that one

358
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 1: or two percent. But with Sarah, I found that what

359
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: I liked working with a forensic psychologist was a different take,

360
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 1: a different perspective. We get a little bit of group

361
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 1: think in policing. We tend to think the same and

362
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 1: it's good to have someone independent, someone outside the circle

363
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 1: that looks at it from a different view. And quite

364
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 1: often with Sarah, have you considered this? And I'd be

365
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,360
Speaker 1: looking at it. Go No, I haven't a very good idea, see,

366
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 1: but I found that beneficial. It was a really powerful,

367
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 1: powerful tool to have.

368
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good to sometimes have someone that can step

369
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: back and bring that different perspective. And often psychologists are

370
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 2: going to look at the person and try and in

371
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 2: some ways deconstruct the puzzle and then rebuild it and

372
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 2: look at what does that then give us for the investigation,

373
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 2: So that might be understanding the functionality of the behavior

374
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 2: all the way through to let's go and approach the

375
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 2: person and try this style of engagement, because that's the

376
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 2: type of individual they are. And if we go in

377
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: really hot and in our suits and quite brazen and

378
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 2: kick the door in, that's not going to get their

379
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 2: response and they're not going to engage with this and

380
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: then we're going to miss the opportunity to interview with them.

381
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: Serial killing, the type of investigations we're talking about. I

382
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: read your book Mass Casually over the weekend and it's

383
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 1: you me up to speed on quite a few things,

384
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: and I found a fascinating, fascinating read and putting sort

385
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: of might take in it from a homicide detective and

386
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 1: your thoughts and theories. What I found particularly interesting was

387
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: the onset of the loan actors in the way that

388
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: they're starting to leave their mark. Sadly, because when someone

389
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: commits an offense of mass casual these a lot of

390
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: lives are destroyed. What's your involvement in that type of work?

391
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 2: So our unit really is the main unit within New

392
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 2: Zealand that would service persons of concern, whether it be

393
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: a sort of a fixation or grievance point of view,

394
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 2: or also a terrorism aspect. So we would provide the

395
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 2: operational consultation on those matters. And that's an ongoing area

396
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: as it is in Australia, where there's people that are

397
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: often presenting with concerns or concerning behaviors and the task

398
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 2: then is to try and understand the extent of that concern.

399
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: I always think it's good to boil it down to

400
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: looking at two factors, so their intent and their capability.

401
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: So do they have the intent to act violently or

402
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: the intent to act on these concerning thoughts or beliefs

403
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 2: or whatever they might be exhibiting, and do they have

404
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 2: the capability to progress with that behavior? So that might

405
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: be all the way through to the capability to carry

406
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: out an attack, capability to plan, the capability to resource.

407
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 2: So where they sit on the intent and capability scale

408
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 2: is important. And then of course as the intent increases

409
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: and the capability increases, then we get quite concerned.

410
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 1: Right. If I can refer to a couple of things

411
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: from the book, that one that I found particularly interesting

412
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: was the Toronto vehicle ramming attack where a number of

413
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: people A person that's gotten in the.

414
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: Car, Alec Manassian.

415
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: That's the one twenty five year old killing eleven people

416
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: and then during fifteen others. Could you just describe what

417
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: happened and then we'll break that investigation down.

418
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he was a twenty five year old. He

419
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: was studying I can't remember the exact I think it

420
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: was a computer science degree and had just graduated and

421
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: was about to start his first first day of professional

422
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 2: work for his career, and he heed a van. He

423
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: made the decision to book that a couple of weeks earlier,

424
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: picked it up and drove into downtown Toronto and through

425
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 2: a heavy pedestrian area in the city and struck numerous

426
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: people so killed eleven, injured fifteen, and initially they thought

427
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 2: it was an Islamic inspired attack. Once they had him

428
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: in custody, they then began to look through his various

429
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 2: online accounts and discovered a really interesting post that he'd

430
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 2: made earlier that morning which talked about this in cell rebellion.

431
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: And I've spoken with Rob Thomas, who was the lead

432
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: interviewer of Manassian, and he mentioned that a lot of

433
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: the planning went into preparing for an Islamic state type

434
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: of offender. And then as the day progressed, they discovered

435
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 2: that it was actually this in cell ideology that had

436
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 2: been a heavy motivating factor for that, and that really

437
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: was I think one of the first public examples that

438
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: we got of an in cell and spied attack. It

439
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: was sort of known, I guess in the underground space

440
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: and in online forums, but it really brought it to

441
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: the fore and that then interview of Manassin where he

442
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: talks about chad's and stacy.

443
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: Fascinate fascinating breakdown what the in cels are for people

444
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: that don't know.

445
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: So in cells are those that are self described as

446
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 2: being involuntarily celibate, so they're unable to find a sexual

447
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: or intimate part. And they would say that that it's

448
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: forced on them in many ways due to the social

449
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: hierarchy and social structure. And this is where it gets

450
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: a little distorted in a little extreme, where they attribute

451
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 2: that to basically a set group of men having access

452
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 2: to the majority, so roughly eighty percent of the women.

453
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 2: So these our for males with the chisel jewels and

454
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: abs and biceps of the chads, and the blonde barbie

455
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,479
Speaker 2: type as you know, as you imagine, is known as

456
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: the staceys. And so it's really this hierarchy of chads

457
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,239
Speaker 2: and Staceys, and the in cells want to be aut

458
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: to date and have sex with the staceys, but because

459
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: of the sort of social and evolutionary nature, they're unable to.

460
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 2: So there's also another level, which is the Bicki's that

461
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: kind of a step or rank below staceis, and the

462
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: in cells don't desire the Beckies, they want the they

463
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: want the Staceys. And we also have normies as well

464
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: that sit above above in cells and normis are the

465
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: ones that are not necessarily attractive and not necessarily succeeding.

466
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: They're kind of just floating by in life. And underneath

467
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 2: them are the in cells who are basically deprived of

468
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: all the joys and successes in life because they've been

469
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: disadvantaged by looks and various other aspects. And as you

470
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: step back, it's just it blows your mind, because it's

471
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: a bit like you're reading a teenage science fiction magazine

472
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: or its game characters in some sort of sci fi

473
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: sci fi game. And but we've seen so many of

474
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: these ideologies that have even the Sovereign Citizen movement for example,

475
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: where there's all these different rules and laws and norms,

476
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: and it's very confusing to get your head around.

477
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: Do you think they're on the increase or decrease in Australia.

478
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: It's a hard one to answer whether they are on

479
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: the increase. I certainly don't think that the numbers are

480
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: reducing at all. We're seeing more and more just fringe

481
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: social groups are attracting people, and people are identifying with

482
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: others on an online space because they are not having

483
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: those face to face conversations now. So I think in

484
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: cell culture and those that are struggling with socially and

485
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: also on intimate relationships maybe conversing with others in these groups,

486
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: I don't think we're necessarily seeing any more violent or

487
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: misogynistic views increases or directly from these groups at the present.

488
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: I think the numbers are staying pretty stable around about

489
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: that five percent, but we may be seeing more people

490
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: that are identifying with the underlying themes and messages around that.

491
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: I wonder with the advent of dating apps that seems

492
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: to be the norm of people meeting people these days,

493
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: and the picture of the profile and all that, a

494
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 1: lot of people be getting rejected without even understanding who

495
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: they are or what they are, and I can see

496
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: some resentment perhaps building building from that.

497
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's a piece that probably hasn't

498
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: really been answered. And you raise a really good point.

499
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: You know, what's the implication of not only face to

500
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: face rejection but online rejection as well, and how does

501
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: that amplify that. An interesting point is we've got in cells.

502
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: There's also fem cells, which are female in cells, and

503
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: I think a couple of years ago I saw it.

504
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: Can't we put the in cells together with them?

505
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: Well, it's the females that are having a similar challenges

506
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: and they're not liking the available males to them, and

507
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: they are involuntarily celibate. And yeah, I saw recently, you know,

508
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: there was a TikTok I think with twenty six million

509
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: likes or hashtags around fem cells. So we're certainly seeing

510
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: more and more unusual and maybe fringe sort of groups

511
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: popping up.

512
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: Well, see how it plays out because the social norm

513
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: has changed, isn't the way that only in the last

514
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: a couple of decades. It's changed significantly how people used

515
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: to meet and because like the in cell's sitting in

516
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: isolation and what you described, you can picture many lonely

517
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: people in that situation. But the world is set up

518
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: now that they can reach out and that their views

519
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: can be validated, so they can get on social media

520
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: or what they're before them, and their views can be

521
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: magnified by the people that are supporting their ideologies. Is

522
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: that a fair or a simplistic assessment of it?

523
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're finding more and more groups pop

524
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: up and various online communities now that people are identifying

525
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: with and that's okay because it's not necessarily unhealthy. So

526
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: jumping onto an insell forum by itself is not a problem.

527
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: But there's been debate around, particularly in Australia or in

528
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: New Zealand, you should in cell forums or even identifying

529
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: with the in cell ideology be classified as terrorism at

530
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: the moment. It's not. What the research tends to say

531
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: is it's about five percent of people that are on

532
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: in cell forums that are very misogynistic and promoting quite

533
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: violent rhetoric towards females. So it is only a small proportion.

534
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: Where we get worried though, is there's always someone out

535
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: there that may be very vulnerable though to those ideas

536
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: and that messaging and then progress to carry out a

537
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: violent act.

538
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose, And we're not saying that that initially

539
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: thought as a terrorist attack, but it's not being called

540
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: a terrorist attack. But that's very similar to how terrorist

541
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: groups bring in the extremists, isn't it, yeh, a shared

542
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: ideology that they've got like minded people and then it

543
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: starts to escalate from there.

544
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't necessarily need to be in ideology,

545
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: we're seeing more and more people that are just promoting

546
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: just violent, violent intentions, self harm, the idea of trying

547
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: to dominate others. The FBI recently talked about the seven six'

548
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: four group that are basically a group that are promoting

549
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: dominance and control and satanistic. Practices there's a right wing

550
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 2: sort of white, supremacy lean and Neo nazi spect to,

551
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: it but a lot of it is about trying to

552
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: get absolute dominance and control over, someone so that may

553
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: be getting someone to self harm or make engravings on

554
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: themselves of someone's, initials all the way through to encouraging

555
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: them and trying to basically coerce them into carrying out

556
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: a violet. Acts, so, unfortunately we're seeing with the rise

557
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: of The internet and certain subcultures that we are getting

558
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: more and more pockets of violence emerging with.

559
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: That, okay with The toronto, massacre was there any red

560
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: flags or indicators that when we look back and hindsight

561
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful, Thing but is there anything that jumps

562
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: out to. You we've identified in cell was the seed

563
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: that generated the, Attack but was there any things that

564
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: warning signs that you could see looking at.

565
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: It it's really tricky looking back at that one Because Alec,

566
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: menassian he was a fellow that had struggled throughout his.

567
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: Schooling he had an autistic spectrum, disorder never really was

568
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: able to form strong social. Relationships he was bullied throughout

569
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: his schooling even though he was quite intellectual and quite academically.

570
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: Successful socially he. Struggled but he wasn't talking openly in

571
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: person to anyone about his ideological positions or his views

572
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: about Female it was largely done from the confines of his.

573
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: Room and that is the. Challenge so our responses to lone,

574
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: actors it has improved a, lot but it is very

575
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: contingent on information. Flows so With, manassian the challenge there

576
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 2: was he basically was, isolated kipt to, himself wasn't sharing

577
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: this and planned it in. Secrecy and, again you, know

578
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: someone Like Anders bravic over In norway is a very

579
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 2: good example where we do occasionally get what we would

580
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: say are Black swan types of, incidents so outlies where

581
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: we don't get a lot of leaked information or shared

582
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: information with others about and.

583
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: You're talking that the concert At norway is that the So.

584
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: Anders bravic in twenty, eleven carried out that the bombing

585
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 2: at the news at The Norwegian government building and then

586
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: got on a boat To Utoya island and went over

587
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: there it was a young labor party camp and carried

588
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: out the mass shooting there AND i think it was

589
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: around around seventy seven people that he killed in.

590
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: Total and he you were saying and then sorry in

591
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: the rupted you just to clarify the. Event but he

592
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: was very, isolated was.

593
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: He so he spent years preparing and planning for that.

594
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 2: Attack he he used his savings to basically, plan, prepare

595
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: purchase various tops of, ingredients, firearms tactical equipment over a

596
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: number of, years trained himself in using, weapons groundown fertilizer

597
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: pellets for several months to create a bomb that he

598
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: set off in The Norwegian government building and used multiple

599
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: different sort of aliases, online have packages delivered in certain

600
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: locations and in other locations with various bits of. Equipment

601
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: so he wasn't an exceptional outlier because he was so

602
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: meticulously planned and he viewed it very much as a

603
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: cat and mouse game with police where he was intending

604
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: to carry out this mass casualty, attack but at the

605
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: same time he was preparing like a warrior and trying

606
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: to keep any types of warnings to the minimum to

607
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 2: not alert.

608
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: Authorities, okay with the view of not being. Caught isolation

609
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: seems to be one of the. Things and isolation is. Hard,

610
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: well you can't legislate against, isolation but it seems to

611
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: be a common theme in these people that or in an,

612
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: event and that could be a breakup of a. RELATIONSHIP

613
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: i Had Tim watson mun On The Criminal psychologist talking

614
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: about The Hottle street massacre where a person that was

615
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: rejected in the army his car broke. Down it was

616
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: sort of a build up when you look at it looking,

617
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: backwards you, go, okay this was, okay there's breaking point

618
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden the. Damage the damage is

619
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: done with a lot of these a lot of these.

620
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 1: Things it is the. Isolation so how do we encourage

621
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: people to come forward if someone's acting, strangely if they're,

622
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: isolated it's very hard to pick up.

623
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: On, yeah there's a couple. ASPECTS i think fixations are,

624
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 2: important grievances and then the isolation component that you spoke

625
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: about as.

626
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: Well fixation grievances and.

627
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: Isolation, yes, yeah and the isolation as tricky as, well

628
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: because what we find is that a lot of lone

629
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: actors do have social, interactions so they're not isolated in

630
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: the traditional sense where they have no conversations with anyone

631
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: and they're just sitting at home. Alone many will have

632
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: supportive family. Members they may even be in a, relationship

633
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: but what's missing is the social, Reciprocity so they don't

634
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 2: get the same things out of social relationships that often

635
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 2: you AND i, Would so they don't get their enjoyment

636
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 2: out of the. Relationship they don't feel that strong sense

637
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: of connection or. Longing so there's often something just missing

638
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: there that makes them feel isolated and disconnected from, others

639
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 2: rather than the classic sense of this person's just isolated

640
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: and not around.

641
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: Others, okay so even in an environment they can internally feel, yes,

642
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: yeah we're referring to these people for the mass casualties

643
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: as loan. Actors it used to be called lone. Wolf

644
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: what was the logic behind the changing of the way

645
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: that we identify, This, Yeah SO.

646
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: I think around the nineteen nineties late, nineties THE us

647
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: were populating the turn lone wolf and it got a

648
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: bit of pushback because it added a level of mysteriousness

649
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: to these, fellows and you, know they were someone that

650
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: was planning in secrecy and carrying out a, mission and

651
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 2: the sort of mystique ended up in some WAYS i

652
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: think fueling them. Encouraging, yeah, Absolutely and that was then

653
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: rebranded really probably in the academic space to loan, actors

654
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 2: so those that basically are acting alone or with minimal outside.

655
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: Influence and we cavet at that though now BECAUSE i

656
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: would say that it's those that are self initiating towards

657
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 2: violence and they're not doing that at the direction of someone,

658
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: else but they could very easily be online communicating in

659
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 2: a group and getting ideas or sharing extreme views with.

660
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: People so they are self initiating to, violence but they

661
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 2: may not be loan or alone in that classical.

662
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: SENSE i think that there's an importance and it always

663
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: worries me AND i now work in the media coming

664
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: from law, enforcement if we give too much of a

665
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: profile to someone who's committed a horrendous. Crime AND i

666
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: think lone wolf could be a pretty Cool i'm a lone.

667
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: Wolf the lone actor doesn't sound quite as. Cool and

668
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: when you talk about the one, percent that might be

669
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: the one. Percent that makes a difference that someone that

670
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: doesn't get a fantasy about being seen as a lone.

671
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: Wolf, yeah AND i Think australia And New zealand have

672
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 2: done it pretty. Well certainly over in THE us with

673
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: the high rates of school shooting as workplace, incidents there's

674
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 2: just this constant stream of news coverage which really sort

675
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: of sensationalizes the action in some.

676
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: Ways with loan actors my, understanding and most of the

677
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: play out in the media tend to be. Male is

678
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: there a predominance of male loan actors or can? Female

679
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: is there female loan actors as?

680
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: Well looks mostly. Males it's quite heavily steered towards. Males

681
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: around about ninety to ninety five percent of loan actor

682
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 2: attackers are. MALE a good example of a female probably

683
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: here In australia would have Been Momina schomer down In,

684
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: victoria WHO i think is the first female charged with

685
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: the terrorism In, australia and she stabbed her homestay, host

686
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: obviously identifying with The Islamic jehardy ideology and had influences

687
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 2: from several others that were affiliated with Other islamic based,

688
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 2: attacks but she traveled solely To australia to carry out an.

689
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: Attack did she tax and mind in custody as? Well

690
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: there was another attack and the sister over yep from

691
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: their homeland attacked the police officer of making.

692
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: The year your spot. On so she, RECENTLY i think

693
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: it was a Blonde canadian female in custody that she

694
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 2: attacked and afterwards made comments About allah would be happy

695
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: with her for, THAT i think with a pair of gardening.

696
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: Shares and then, yeah the time that she was, charged

697
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: police over there went to speak with her sister and

698
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: when they arrived at the, door the sister came out

699
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 2: with a knife and tried to attack the. Officers, no

700
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: it was.

701
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: The fact that both sisters continents apart that there's something

702
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: that's got into their ideology and going out the.

703
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: Attacks, yeah AND i think that the differences with males

704
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: and females in respect to this form of violence probably

705
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: is very similar to what we see with a lot

706
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 2: of different forms of. Offending, yeah you, know males are

707
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: often the ones doing the more serious, homicides and they

708
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: certainly perpetrate homicides at at much higher rates than. Females

709
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: and in some, ways you, know males tend to act

710
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: out their emotions and females are often internalizing. Those SO

711
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 2: i think we see different ways of coping with emotion

712
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: and dealing with. Problems and for, men when they have,

713
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 2: struggles it is acted out and it's, expressed often in harmful,

714
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: ways in quite destructive. Ways and we do talk about

715
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: there being copycat effects and it can take.

716
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: IT i was going to ask, that like when you

717
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: see a series and then shortly after there's another, one

718
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 1: and especially in THE, US i think we're all aware

719
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: of that with the school, shootings and do you think

720
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: that that the copy can come into?

721
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: PLAY i no doubt that we've seen many attacks that

722
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: have been copied over the, years and As Bravic Brenton

723
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: tarrant In New zealand have certainly given inspiration and also

724
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: tactical knowledge to other perpetrators that have then gone on

725
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: to carry out attacks after. That we also probably have

726
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: a contagion aspect as, well you, know like the social.

727
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 2: Contagion and for a long time media outlets didn't report

728
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: suicides because suicides are known to have a contagion, aspect

729
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: where if you've got friends that then others that know

730
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: that person that at increased risk of, suicide particularly they've

731
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 2: got mental health. Vulnerabilities we know that if suicides are

732
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: in the, media it actually leads to people thinking about

733
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: the idea. More AND i think no doubt that it's

734
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 2: a similar thing with mass casualty. Attacks that the more

735
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 2: that we see that people are trying to resolve life

736
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: problems in this, way then the more it. Normalize it

737
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 2: normalizes that and that's quite.

738
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: Frightening, yeah, well you saw it with, schools and with

739
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: schools if a child has committed, suicide it was always

740
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: a concern that other, kids friends and all, that and

741
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: it's something that you, know, again if we can will

742
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: it back or reduce minimize the risk factors all the.

743
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: Better terrorism has distinct from low and actors BECAUSE i

744
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: think we've all been caught up in you, know we're

745
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: living in times when there are terrorist attacks and have

746
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: been some significant, ones and then the loan actor attacks

747
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: and sometimes they get a little bit caught. Up it's

748
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: all the same, thing, like if it's a mass casually

749
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: it must be a terrorist. Attack what's the difference between the.

750
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: Two, yeah it's a really good. Question and in some

751
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 2: ways terrorism is more at a legislative criminal prosecution. Level

752
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: we often see that there's many common, threads so there

753
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: could be fixations and grievances and. Ideologies, now it's often

754
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 2: the presence of an ideology that leads to something being

755
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 2: classified as, terrorism and we also look at it in

756
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: terms of what was the intended outcome and often is

757
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: there an intention to create social and political, change and

758
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: that's often where the ideology is paired with, that and

759
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: that would then become classified as. Terrorism we've seen, though

760
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: that many mess casualty attacks are not perpetrated with clear

761
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 2: intentions to create social and political. Change they are instead

762
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 2: a result of grievances or fixations and other, factors sometimes

763
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: coupled with aspects of, ideology but they don't necessarily meet

764
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 2: the classification for. Terrorism so it is a bit of

765
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: a fine, line AND i think the risk is we

766
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 2: focus too much on terrorism and miss that there's actually

767
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: more universal threads amongst all of these. Individuals and sometimes

768
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 2: it's terrors, specific but other times it's just intended to

769
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: really be a form of revenge, retribution trying to restore

770
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: natural order or response to perceived.

771
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: Injustice, well i'd take on board what you said earlier

772
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 1: on about, grievances how that plays a, part and that's you,

773
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: know we've all been slighted in some, way and there's

774
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: ways of dealing with your anger and your, grievances but

775
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: you can imagine people that haven't got the emotional skills

776
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 1: to handle. That it just becomes a fixation That i've been,

777
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: Wronged i'm going to get.

778
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 2: Revenge, Yeah and we talk about querulous individuals to those

779
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: that just constantly make complaints that are unable to be,

780
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 2: pleased that are distrusting and suspicious and. Paranoid and, look

781
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: there are people out there like, that but they don't

782
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: ever resort to. Violence and that really raises the question

783
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: around what is it that is tipping people over the into,

784
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: Violence and it's often it is the violent. Identification so

785
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: they start in some way trying to see themselves as

786
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: someone that's going to make a big statement to bring

787
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: an ultimate conclusion to an, event and then we do

788
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 2: pair that with ideology in certain, times then we really

789
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 2: get this quite sort OF i, guess concerning mix or

790
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: factors that come. Together and one of the MODELS i

791
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 2: quite like is this idea of the bathtub, model where.

792
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: It was bath tub all the, staircase the staircase you explain.

793
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: THAT i found that quite.

794
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 2: Interesting so the bath tub is the idea that we

795
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 2: have a couple of different water faucets that are pouring

796
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: into a bath, tub and that can be different motivating.

797
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 2: Factors so sometimes it's sometimes it's, political sometimes it's personal,

798
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: factors sometimes it's social, factors and they gradually pour in

799
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 2: over time and fill up the bath. Tub it might

800
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: be that your relationship breaks, down you get fired at,

801
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: work you then start looking at concerning media on the,

802
00:47:58,560 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: internet and gradually they all just.

803
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: Or three of. Those, sorry, no you're not looking at.

804
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: Me i'm not going to do, Anything so.

805
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: Start filling up the. Bathtub and where it goes wrong

806
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: is there's no release style on the, bathtub so it

807
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 2: just fills up over. Time and EXAMPLE i used in

808
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 2: the book of that Was Thomas, mayor who Kills Joe

809
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: cox over in THE, uk and he's a guy that

810
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 2: had long term right wing Neo nazi views and they

811
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: just simmled away for roughly twenty. Years but then When

812
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: brexit came, about that really just fueled things for him

813
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: that tipped him over the. Edge and then we look

814
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 2: at something like the, staircase and that looks at really

815
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 2: how things transform for someone over. Time and the idea

816
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 2: is that you walk into the base of the. Staircase

817
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: so you walk into the first door because things are

818
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 2: not quite going right or the way that you'll you

819
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: want them to in, life and you walk into the

820
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: door looking for an, answer looking for a, solution and

821
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: you get to the first level or the ground, floor

822
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: and then if you don't find any solutions, there you

823
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 2: walk up the next, level and, gradually as you keep

824
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 2: going up the, levels your options narrow and Violence, ultimately

825
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 2: once you get to the fifth, level becomes the only

826
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 2: solution and the last resort answer to your. Problems so

827
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 2: we see that as the person climbs the, staircase not

828
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 2: only do the options and solutions, dwindle but they're thinking

829
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: about the situation changes and they come to accept that

830
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: the only way through this or the only justifiable response.

831
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 1: Is violence and breaking it down in the simple concept

832
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: of the bath tub and the. Staircase does that help

833
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,439
Speaker 1: a lot of the times you might be doing the thread,

834
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: assessment is that the type of thing that you're looking

835
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 1: at the build up or, okay how dangerous AND i

836
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: really take on. Board one of the aspects that you

837
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: say is, capability because that's a big. FACTOR i look

838
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: from a homicide investigator point of, view opportunity made even,

839
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: capability could have the, opportunity could have the, motive but

840
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,479
Speaker 1: if they haven't got the, Capability so that's another fact

841
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: that comes into.

842
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: It it is an unfortunately capability though is becoming as

843
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: we've seen with say The BOND dii junction. Attack now

844
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 2: it's just a, cheap easy available weapon and someone can

845
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 2: do an enormous amount of. Harm but we don't dismiss

846
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: capability because it is still very, important and things like

847
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 2: the Cross church attack highlight something like capability. Factors but

848
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: we do need to balance that then with, intent so you,

849
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 2: know how strongly is this or how strong is this person's,

850
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: Intent and then if we are concerned about the, intent

851
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: well then we know that they could be capable of

852
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: doing a low capability. Attack so it is a bit

853
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 2: of a balancing act where we need to look at all.

854
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: FACTORS i always, think how died up are the dial

855
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: for this? Individual how concerned do we need to? Be

856
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 2: so as you, know the more concerning things that we,

857
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 2: see then, generally as a loose, principle you would be

858
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: you'd be saying that you, know there's a lot of

859
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 2: risk or threat that needs to be mitigated here.

860
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: Looking at just pick a, case if you'd be familiar

861
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: with The linp cafe With Man, Momus, yes looking back

862
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: that and people know we've spoken about on here we

863
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: had one of the hostages from the siege that was

864
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 1: in the cafe the whole time and some of the police.

865
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: Involved but looking At Man, momus like you look back

866
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: and you go red, flag red, flag red. Flag but that's.

867
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: Hindsight it's a wonderful. Thing is there anything that you

868
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: see in that if you're familiar with it at? All

869
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: something About Man momis's background that if you were assessing

870
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: him prior to him committing this, offense is what sort

871
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: of vindicators would concern?

872
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: You, yeah that's, look that's a really good. Question and

873
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 2: the coronial inquest that looked at The Link cafe siege

874
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: had some really good findings and one of them was

875
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 2: the need for a Fixated Threat Assessment, center which came

876
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 2: into place in twenty seventeen In New South wales AND

877
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: i Think queensland was the first state to bring that

878
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: in Because monus he had the grievance and the fixation

879
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 2: And Michelle, pathay who's done a lot of work in

880
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: the F tach space and set up The queensland F

881
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 2: tach and also The VICTORIAN. TACH i saw a presentation

882
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 2: that she did and she talked About monus and we

883
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: looked at him through the terrorism. Lens and that's one

884
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: of the biggest shortfalls probably of our management or response

885
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 2: To monus was he was a fixated and grievance fueled.

886
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: Individual but we were making all our assessments and judgments

887
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 2: on him based on is he a whole risk of

888
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: a terrorism? Offense and the worry was that wein we're

889
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: missing him as a person and what was actually motivating

890
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 2: and driving? Him and so it was the grievance and

891
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 2: the need for notoriety and significance rather than the presence

892
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 2: of a strong. Ideology so we got caught up in

893
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: does he have the ideology and the desire to act

894
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: violently for that, ideology rather than is this an individual

895
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: that's got the psychological makeup and the psychological factors that

896
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,479
Speaker 2: are fueling him towards? Violence AND i think now looking

897
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: back at, that we've seen that had you, know the

898
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: emergence of f tax and more specialized, police particularly you

899
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 2: know psychologists and. Psychiatrists we've come a long way since.

900
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,240
Speaker 1: Then, yeah looking for the dangers of those fixated. PERSONS

901
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: a lot of the work that you're doing now and

902
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: break it down into prevention and. Intervention And i've just

903
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: got some of the discussion points here policing. STRATEGIES i

904
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: suppose you touched in part on that that the way

905
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: we were looking at man momus was more from a

906
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: terrorist point of view than a fixated person with a

907
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: grievance that might play out risk. Assessments that's the work

908
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: that you're. In break us down for a risk. Assessment

909
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: what IF i was seeing here GOING i am so

910
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: angry at The New South Wales police for how my

911
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: career came to an, end what sort of assessments would

912
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: you be making without getting too? Personal MAYBE i should

913
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: have used another, example but, Okay i'm, angry BUT i

914
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: think my, Situation i'll just move on and get on

915
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: with my. Life another. Chapter so what type of things

916
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: would be a warning sign to?

917
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: You and that's part of, it isn't is that rigidity

918
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 2: and the cognitive. Rigidity do you have the ability to

919
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: think about other, options other, solutions other ways of coping

920
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 2: or is it tunneling down to you becoming very fixed

921
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 2: and very stuck and very fueled by this? Injustice and

922
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 2: so we do look at we look at factors like.

923
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 2: Fixation how psychologically preoccupied is someone with this issue or this?

924
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: Person how aggrieved are they so how strong is that

925
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: grievance for some of these folks that they wake up

926
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: every day living and breeding. This then you look at the,

927
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: intent so you, know do they have an intent to

928
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 2: progress that? Issue and then do they have the capability

929
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 2: to act on? That so that is a simple way

930
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 2: of looking at. It another way is to think about

931
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 2: it from a threat perspective and Read, malloy who's a

932
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 2: forensic psychiatrist over in THE us has done some really

933
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 2: good work and he talks about eight key warning. Behaviors

934
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 2: and so the first one's, pathway so is the evidence

935
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 2: of planning and preparation for some sort of. Act we

936
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 2: then have, fixation so that psychological. Preoccupation then there is,

937
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 2: identification so is the person experiencing a shift in their

938
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 2: identity so that they are now starting to see themselves

939
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,919
Speaker 2: more as a as a warrior or someone that's being

940
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: driven towards a. Mission so often that commando type of

941
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 2: identity that they're developing novel. Aggression so are they engaging

942
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: anything to test their ability to the? Results how we

943
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 2: also have. Leakage so have they made any remarks to

944
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 2: anyone about an intent to carry out an active? Harm

945
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 2: we have a directly communicated threat as? Well have they

946
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: made any threats to? Anyone last resort as? Well so last?

947
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: Resorts often have they reached their end of?

948
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: Tether is?

949
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 2: This are they at the position where they think.

950
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: This, loss loss of family and just what else have

951
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: they got left in the?

952
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 2: Eye this is never going to be, resolved AND i

953
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: need to do something about. IT i need to make

954
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 2: a final statement and make my. Mark and often that

955
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 2: making your mark is often quite crucial in this in

956
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: these sorts of, offenses because unfortunately we see that it's

957
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 2: often people that don't have significance that are wanting, significance

958
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: and that the act becomes part of gaining that. Significance,

959
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 2: okay it's, interesting that's.

960
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: FASCINATING i love like the structure you put into such

961
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: a because it's such a gray area with so many different.

962
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: Layers but you actually need the, structure don't. You, well

963
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: as you're breaking down the. Structure it helps me even

964
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: the bathtub and the. Staircase, okay if you told me

965
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: the science behind it, All i'll probably get, Lost BUT

966
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: i understand what you're, saying and you really do need the.

967
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: Structure government. Influencers we had the shooting situation down In

968
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: tasmania and we restricted guns and made a very strong gun.

969
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: Policy is that the type of thing you're talking with government. Influencers.

970
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah government influences are the fascinating and sometimes concerning at

971
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 2: the same, time and they can be spot on or

972
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 2: really missed the. MARK i think understanding the lone actor

973
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 2: landscape In, australia it's hard to have that conversation Without Port.

974
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 2: Arthur so where we are now and maybe the lack

975
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 2: of significant incidents that we, have AND i say that

976
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: cautiously is probably largely a result of the decisions that

977
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: were made back in nineteen ninety six around the. Firearms

978
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: if we think about even The Link cafe ces or

979
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: some of the other even The bondai attack, recently had

980
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 2: those people been able to get high caliber, firearms it may,

981
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 2: yeah very very. Different and the potentially the argument there

982
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 2: for the Christ church terrorist attack may that have happened

983
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 2: In australia if our firearm policy hadn't ever been, changed

984
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: because part of the part of that was the accessibility

985
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 2: of firearms at the. Time so governments have a really

986
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 2: important part to. Play my concern is that we try

987
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 2: and restrict our way out of, things and there's a

988
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: balance there between.

989
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: You because you could create another potential offend.

990
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 2: That absolutely the everyday person is doing the right thing

991
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 2: and they are losing a lot of their freedoms because

992
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 2: of restrictive measures that are put in. Place AND i

993
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: always think, that you, know people need to have a

994
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 2: level of. Autonomy we can't regulate and control our way

995
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 2: out of, everything AND i think it's good to put

996
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 2: safeguards and parameters in, place but becoming too restrictive and

997
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 2: too intrusive risk thin creating another problem on the flip

998
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 2: side of that with someone then getting aggrieved and FEELING.

999
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: I, think and TALKING, covid THE covid, RESTRICTIONS i saw

1000
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: PEOPLE i knew that the way they were, reacting you

1001
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: could almost see the, tension the anger build up and

1002
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: the frustration build up in them in the, restrictions and

1003
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: you could see how that could play out in the

1004
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 1: extreme And i'm not saying my, friends BUT i just

1005
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: saw how many people are, affected and affected each and

1006
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 1: every one of. Us you had the isolation and then

1007
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: the restrictions and loss of, control and people are losing

1008
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:42,479
Speaker 1: their livelihood or losing contact with their. Families those type

1009
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: of RESTRICTIONS i think is just sort of pouring fuel

1010
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: on the.

1011
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 2: Fire, Yeah So i'm always big on empowering and educating,

1012
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 2: People and THEN i think governments ideally put the safeguards

1013
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 2: and the parameters in, place but people still need that.

1014
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,040
Speaker 2: Autonomy AND i think rather than restricting and, controlling we

1015
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 2: should try and educate and. Teach and there's the, argument,

1016
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 2: say with the restrictions for social media that are looking

1017
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: like coming in for, adolescents which which is, positive adolescents

1018
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 2: will still go and find other platforms like discord and

1019
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: all sorts of online groups that they can still access

1020
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: and still find extreme. Content so what about if we

1021
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 2: taught people or children to use social media, safely you,

1022
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: know something like a social media. License we teach people to,

1023
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 2: drive you, know we teach them how to do things

1024
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 2: in a safe. Manner SO i think there's a role

1025
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 2: there where we can empower rather than.

1026
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: Restrict, well giving that degree of, autonomy it takes a

1027
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: sting out of any, restrictions doesn't. It you've got a

1028
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 1: little bit of. Control, okay you've just got to go

1029
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: through this, pathway but you can get. THERE i see

1030
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 1: what you're. Saying i've never thought of it that, way but,

1031
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: yeah we shut down the social media for the, kids

1032
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: they're going to get access to. Things.

1033
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah and again it's the masses that are probably

1034
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 2: doing the right thing that are impact in. IT i

1035
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 2: think it's a good conversation to have because there are

1036
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 2: always pros and, cons but the ones that seek this

1037
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 2: out will still be able to find. It.

1038
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay look we might take a break. Here when

1039
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: we get, BACK i want to talk in detail about

1040
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: the Christ church massacre and put in or discuss some

1041
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: of the things we've discussed here and how that played

1042
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 1: out in the build up to the. Case i'd also

1043
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 1: like to talk about. STALKING i know part of you

1044
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: the reason you're over here that you're delivering a lecture on.

1045
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: Stalking i've always thought from a policing point of, VIEW

1046
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 1: i always had concerns when people were. Stalking it starts, off,

1047
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: well nothing's really, done but the way that they become

1048
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: fixated on the person they're. Stalking always concerned, me And

1049
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: i'm sure there's a lot of other things we've got

1050
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 1: to talk. About i'm finding it quite quite. Fascinating so

1051
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: we'll take a break and we'll be back shortly for part.

1052
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: Two Thanks, Gary cheers.

1053
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 2: Two Nine ka