Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Glenn Fisher.
Speaker 1: If you listen to part one, you would have heard
Speaker 1: Glenn talk about the horrific childhood he had experienced. If
Speaker 1: you thought Glenn's life must have got better from there,
Speaker 1: you're in for a shock, because in part two he
Speaker 1: talks about it and it certainly didn't got a lot worse.
Speaker 1: Addicted to heroin for thirty five years prison sentences, the
Speaker 1: betrayal by the only two people he trusted enough to love,
Speaker 1: and his attempts to take his own life, plus a
Speaker 1: whole lot more. But Glenn also talks about how he
Speaker 1: turned his life around, how he got justice against his abuses,
Speaker 1: how he gave evidence at four court matters to get
Speaker 1: his abuses convicted, giving evidence at two royal commissions, and
Speaker 1: how he is now giving back to society. Glenn's story
Speaker 1: is as dark as it is inspirational. Have a listen,
Speaker 1: and I think it might just put in perspective how
Speaker 1: lucky the majority of us are. Glenn Fisher, Welcome back,
Speaker 1: Part two. I'm going to apologize, and I probably don't
Speaker 1: have to. You've told me it's all right to talk
Speaker 1: about things, but I'm taking in some dark places. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I apologize up front, but I think and I agree,
Speaker 1: I believe you agree with it. It's important to talk
Speaker 1: about the things that you've experienced because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people out there that wouldn't have the courage is
Speaker 1: probably not the right word, but for whatever reason, don't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable in coming forward and talking about the type
Speaker 1: of things that you talk about.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of stigma and shame around abuse, you know.
Speaker 2: And I know for myself as just think, how did
Speaker 2: I let somebody do that to me? You know, And
Speaker 2: that's probably what sits with a lot of people, you know.
Speaker 2: But I think if I write in my book, this
Speaker 2: isn't a mean story, this is a wee story. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is a story about a lot of children who
Speaker 2: went through this and were abused. I've just one that
Speaker 2: to live to tell.
Speaker 1: You know. That's the insidious part about child sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: isn't it That leaves the victim so traumatized and they're
Speaker 1: even blaming themselves. But that's part of the manipulation they
Speaker 1: do that for the people that are up braying on
Speaker 1: these kids know that they can get away with things
Speaker 1: because that's what they leave the kids with.
Speaker 2: They come across like they're doing you a favor, you know, like, oh,
Speaker 2: you need money to get on. I can help you out,
Speaker 2: you know, just for this cost, you know, and you'd
Speaker 2: like a hanging out and with drawn, can you give
Speaker 2: me the money first year?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay, And you know you can get doing your favor,
Speaker 2: you know, And they're not you know, and you've been
Speaker 2: programmed that way prior, you know.
Speaker 1: I love the fact that you're talking about this and
Speaker 1: it's almost like an avenging angel coming in. And these
Speaker 1: people that have been involved in this, they must have
Speaker 1: people like you talking. They'd be thinking shit. But when
Speaker 1: am I going to get that knock on the door
Speaker 1: and when I'm going to be called into account? I hope? So. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I have a lot of sleepless nights, absolutely, because
Speaker 1: the lives that they destroyed. Just before we take you
Speaker 1: back in the dark stuff, just to give you a sense,
Speaker 1: give our listeners a sense of how far are you coming?
Speaker 1: I think it's in the day. I'll say you're heading
Speaker 1: down to Canberra. By the time people listen to this podcast,
Speaker 1: you will have spoken on the steps of Parliament House
Speaker 1: downing Canberra. What's that about?
Speaker 2: So it's called Zero Suicide. A friend of mine, Paul,
Speaker 2: runs it every year and it gets us to come
Speaker 2: down and speak. We lay out twenty five hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty five shoes this year to represent and every life
Speaker 2: lost to suicide. And I've been asked all over the
Speaker 2: country to speak at different events and I'm making meeting
Speaker 2: up with Malcolm Roberts on the day before. He wants
Speaker 2: me to go on a podcast with him as well.
Speaker 2: Share my story and and then I'll be speaking out
Speaker 2: the front of Parliament with a lot of other creators,
Speaker 2: a lot of influencers to try and you know, show
Speaker 2: people just we need to stop this in its tracks.
Speaker 2: You know, we need a men's minister. That's what we're
Speaker 2: pushing for, is to get a men's minister to deal
Speaker 2: with men's mental health and our situational distress.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk on that a little bit more. Why you
Speaker 1: think specifically for men.
Speaker 2: Well, because eight out of every nine that have died
Speaker 2: is a male. You know, that's the problem. The leading
Speaker 2: cause of death in our country between the age of
Speaker 2: fifteen and thirty five is suicide. You know, that's catastrophe.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The only thing that's measuring near it now is dementia.
Speaker 2: You know, and that's only just a recent state that
Speaker 2: I read the other day. But you know, we're losing,
Speaker 2: like I said, somebody every three hours. Why this podcast
Speaker 2: has happened, We've lost someone. It's terrifying. And as a father,
Speaker 2: as a grandfather, that terrifies me. You know, I'd hate
Speaker 2: my kids to think that that's an.
Speaker 1: Option and it's not a simple fix. But to talk
Speaker 1: about things like that, I think helps it. There are
Speaker 1: people who have been in that lower step that I
Speaker 1: want to talk or can talk about it. There are
Speaker 1: places where people can talk about.
Speaker 2: And specifically with men. I mean women are quite good
Speaker 2: at talking with each other about things that are going on.
Speaker 2: Us men we've been like to swallow it and say nothing,
Speaker 2: you know, and that's how we roll.
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because I know what you're saying. And I
Speaker 1: just know you hang out with a mate and their
Speaker 1: wife knows more about people's lives and your mate. What
Speaker 1: did you talk about? We just said good day, We
Speaker 1: talked about the football, We did this, we did how
Speaker 1: you go on good? Yeah, like I dare say, you know,
Speaker 1: we'd pass each other in the street. There are you
Speaker 1: going good? Mate? How are you good? And that's that's
Speaker 1: the depth of it. So good on you for working
Speaker 1: in that space, in that space to the one thing.
Speaker 1: And I know how sensitive you are to it because
Speaker 1: you've told me on a number of occasions. And we
Speaker 1: talked about the girl that you found in the cross
Speaker 1: and you fell in love with her, and that was
Speaker 1: basically your first girlfriend and world looked a little bit
Speaker 1: brighter in the dark world that you were living in
Speaker 1: because of her. Do you want to tell us about her?
Speaker 1: Is it aka if I use the name Linda Kirby, Yeah,
Speaker 1: something with the start of it. That's just beautiful to
Speaker 1: start off with. So her family were going through her
Speaker 1: stuff just recently, about a year ago, and when they
Speaker 1: were going through their stuff, they found a photo and
Speaker 1: on the back it said Linda loves Glen Fisher. And
Speaker 1: they're like, who is this Glen Fisher? So they google
Speaker 1: Gleen Fisher and you know, everything comes up and it's
Speaker 1: my book. They buy my book. They opened up the
Speaker 1: book and on the very first page it says, dedicated
Speaker 1: to Linda Marie Kirby. I've now been in touch with them.
Speaker 1: I have this relationship with them and other kids who
Speaker 1: have died in across his family too. Well. I get
Speaker 1: a chill down my spine when you just teld that
Speaker 1: that's beautiful, wasn't it?
Speaker 2: It is feutiful? And I sat with them and one
Speaker 2: of them just passed just in the last two weeks.
Speaker 2: But the other I met the mum and the niece
Speaker 2: and the brother and you know, and they all of
Speaker 2: the ones that reach out to me. I was so
Speaker 2: worried about sharing the story of other kids and they said, no,
Speaker 2: and you've humanized my daughter. You've brought it to life.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, tell us about Linda and tell us about
Speaker 1: your relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So we first met, as I said, we were side
Speaker 2: both side, like we were just two big kids, you know,
Speaker 2: we were little kids and were running around with She
Speaker 2: was kind of like the leader of the girls. I
Speaker 2: was kind of like the leader of the boys. And
Speaker 2: I wasn't the leader because I was tough. I was
Speaker 2: a leader because I didn't shut up. That's why I
Speaker 2: was the leader. That's kind of how we rolled.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: But she started some older boys came in from town
Speaker 2: hall in different areas and she started using heroin and
Speaker 2: so I ended up checking up with this other girl.
Speaker 2: I'm a breakdan. So I used to break dance on
Speaker 2: the street. I was quite good.
Speaker 1: Actually, I've never had a breakdancer on the high catch
Speaker 1: killer right cameras roll.
Speaker 2: The other day on TikTok and someone said that's a
Speaker 2: for sure, that's a I was.
Speaker 1: Like a compliment. Yeah, yeah, that's a great compliment.
Speaker 2: But what ends up happening is I go to South
Speaker 2: Australia to go into a dance competition. They reckon this
Speaker 2: this group's the best dancers in Adelaide, and I know
Speaker 2: they're not right in my I'm a good dance and
Speaker 2: I know it, so I'm going up there to prove it.
Speaker 2: So I head off up to South Australia and We're
Speaker 2: going this dance competition. I create a little group called
Speaker 2: the Megazoids. I had by us, sorry Insydney, we had
Speaker 2: a group called the Megazoids. Mega means many, zoids mean
Speaker 2: street people. But up there we made one called the
Speaker 2: Electrical Connection, right, and we we practice all these routines
Speaker 2: to go in this competition.
Speaker 1: We win.
Speaker 2: We actually win the competition. As I'm coming out of
Speaker 2: the competition, I'm walking down the stairs. One of the
Speaker 2: kids from the refuge, Jean Chapman, who just also recently died,
Speaker 2: is at the bottom of the steps and I'm walking down.
Speaker 2: I sorrdly, you see this bra did you see us?
Speaker 2: And he's looking really somber and he goes, Linda's dead, sorry,
Speaker 2: And I was like what And I grabbed him, thro
Speaker 2: him against the wall and like John could have picked
Speaker 2: me up and tossed me, but he just he just cleaned.
Speaker 2: I'm serious, Linda's dead and fucking ripped my heart out, mew.
Speaker 2: I just sat down on the spot and I was like,
Speaker 2: fucking kidding me. What had happened is for the heroine
Speaker 2: two bolts had asked a young girl to find a girl,
Speaker 2: a kid, you know, fifteen year old just turned sixteen
Speaker 2: year old girl. She went with them, They gave the heroin,
Speaker 2: she dropped. They didn't know what to do. They were caught, convicted,
Speaker 2: got twenty years jail. Then they went before Judge Elden
Speaker 2: and on appeal got it dismissed. Altogether, it's because of her.
Speaker 2: I've written my book. It's because of her. I do
Speaker 2: everything I do today. But that's why I went up
Speaker 2: to that abuse when I was just Linda just died
Speaker 2: and I walk up and I was like, you you
Speaker 2: I'm going I'm going to hold you responsible.
Speaker 1: That's when you told me.
Speaker 2: That's when I told him. There it was like I
Speaker 2: just got I had to hit Shike back from South Australia.
Speaker 2: What happened was I was doing dancing and I had
Speaker 2: nun chuckers on me. I had them down my legs,
Speaker 2: you know, he was carrying them down there and I
Speaker 2: got pulled over by the police in gold and they
Speaker 2: arrested me back then. Nunchuckers is the same as carrying
Speaker 2: a firearm. It's a section thirteen A nine a preces nine. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I got I kept in the cells for two
Speaker 2: weeks while her funeral was on side. I missed her
Speaker 2: funeral and but I end up hit choking back to
Speaker 2: the cross and sadly, Gary, that's where I actually become
Speaker 2: a heroin addict. You know, I was like at that point,
Speaker 2: I U speed coke. I not I sorry trips pot drink,
Speaker 2: but I'd never put a needle been in the hand
Speaker 2: that was taking the next step I did. I wanted
Speaker 2: to know what it was. And the sad thing was
Speaker 2: that because of all my trauma, it was like my
Speaker 2: head never stopped. It was like I had all these
Speaker 2: flashbacks in my head and visions. And the sad reality
Speaker 2: for me was when I picked up her on it
Speaker 2: was like my body realigned. It was just like that's
Speaker 2: the answer, which was a lie because people don't understand
Speaker 2: that that you chase that for the rest of your
Speaker 2: life trying to get that realignment. You spend more time
Speaker 2: in withdrawals and hanging out and chasing the dragon and
Speaker 2: money than you ever do actually start trying to.
Speaker 1: Get you back to feeling okay, and that's what you're chasing.
Speaker 2: And then withdrawals, it was manifested. Those feelings were exasperated.
Speaker 2: It was even worse. So I get all these flashbacks
Speaker 2: and trauma and it was horrible. But I never coped
Speaker 2: with her, and she was the first. I mean, I
Speaker 2: watched the many kids die, you know, another girl, bam bam.
Speaker 2: There's so many of them, Sharon Tracy. There's a lot.
Speaker 1: It's just such a waste of life, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Especially her. She was so vivacious, bubbly, she was talented,
Speaker 2: she was smart, she was a leader, she was just
Speaker 2: everything beautiful, you know. And yeah, her life.
Speaker 1: Two that were convicted did was it just the sentencing reduced.
Speaker 2: Or was completely dismissed. Yeah, but I only found these
Speaker 2: out as an adult.
Speaker 1: And we don't know what's gone on with the court matter.
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about justice yelled them.
Speaker 2: Yeah he's a pedophile.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's that's been widely reported.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's a non fact.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ended up taking his life at the wood draw
Speaker 2: Commission suicided.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my understanding after the investigators spoke to him a
Speaker 1: couple of times, and then he ended up committee suicide. Yeah,
Speaker 1: following that, And that's that's scary, isn't that the person
Speaker 1: in the position of that power.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean and not only that, I mean
Speaker 2: he's a compromise judge. The police also knew that he
Speaker 2: was compromised the ones that work corupt in the Cross,
Speaker 2: so they were able to take advantage of that as well.
Speaker 1: Well. I read somewhere that they were charges against him
Speaker 1: or he was arrested and charges weren't laid whatever, So
Speaker 1: there was an assumption that he was given a pass
Speaker 1: or led off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's well known on the street that he was
Speaker 2: given a pass. And he's not alone there. There was
Speaker 2: a lot of them. Like I said, they used to
Speaker 2: hold it over them, you know, photos or you know,
Speaker 2: whatever it was that they had on them, and it
Speaker 2: allowed you know, like there was high profile men coming
Speaker 2: to King's Cross and buying children. It was like it
Speaker 2: was like going to a coffee shop and buying a
Speaker 2: cup of coffee. You know, they just come down and
Speaker 2: be able to purchase a kid.
Speaker 1: What the discussing, Well, do you concern them? We can't
Speaker 1: mention names because you and I end up in court,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to go back to court. And
Speaker 1: I don't think you want to go to court.
Speaker 2: I'm done with the court.
Speaker 1: But do you feel at risk because you are speaking up?
Speaker 2: I did for years. I had a lot of fear
Speaker 2: around it. I have more fear around to people I
Speaker 2: loved and me, you know, putting them in any kind
Speaker 2: of danger. But I got in my head, I thought
Speaker 2: I cannot not speak. They're all dead, Gary one, Bay one.
Speaker 2: I've watched them die and the last one just recently, Marlene,
Speaker 2: she had They're all dying a liver disease or suicide
Speaker 2: or alcoholism or addiction overdoses. And I just thought, you know,
Speaker 2: each one of these to reach out to me, and
Speaker 2: so I just love you, and you're so brave taken
Speaker 2: these guys to court. You know, we're proud of you,
Speaker 2: behind you, And I just thought I have to talk.
Speaker 2: You know, I need people to know, people like Linda, Marlene,
Speaker 2: you know Bam Bam existed, you know my brother, you
Speaker 2: know all these different people. You know, it's like I
Speaker 2: have to speak.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to some law points in your in
Speaker 1: your life, and they're addicted to heroin for a long time,
Speaker 1: and I think you're still on the edge. Quite a
Speaker 1: few times. We've just your heroin use. But you made
Speaker 1: some over the attempts to take your own life. What
Speaker 1: what was a lead up to that?
Speaker 2: So the first one was for seven years, I was
Speaker 2: using on the streets, dropping all the time. I made
Speaker 2: like thirteen overdoses in a period of two years because
Speaker 2: I started taking pills. But I ended up meeting a
Speaker 2: woman and you know, we got engaged. I'm gonna have
Speaker 2: a baby, Shindy. She was pregnant. We just had a
Speaker 2: little baby, and you know, and I loved this woman,
Speaker 2: I really did. And then I got kicked off the
Speaker 2: methadone program for violence, for fighting and it's the second
Speaker 2: time I've been kicked off for violent, violent stuff. And
Speaker 2: then when I stayed on the street for two weeks,
Speaker 2: and when I came back, my brother was at my
Speaker 2: house with my partner and I was like, oh, hello,
Speaker 2: and I pick up the baby, and you know, it's
Speaker 2: all normal, normal. I end up finding it these two
Speaker 2: events sleeping together. You know, she ends up telling he
Speaker 2: ends up telling me. And at the moment, I've just
Speaker 2: been kicked off one hundred and twenty meals of meth today,
Speaker 2: I've got a heroin habit, I'm homeless, I've just lost
Speaker 2: my partner. The only three people I love in the
Speaker 2: world is my brother, my fiance, and my little girl.
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting outside of a church and I don't
Speaker 2: know how I got myself to this point, but I'm
Speaker 2: sitting there listening to the music, and something about Christian
Speaker 2: music has always suve me gary out the way it
Speaker 2: just does. And I'm sitting there and the music stops,
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, in my head just talking
Speaker 2: to me, and I'm going, I'm rocking back and forth
Speaker 2: flight this and I'm saying, this is my fucking point.
Speaker 2: What's the fucking point? What is the point of this
Speaker 2: fucking world? Everybody's a piece of shit, you know. And
Speaker 2: I just kept saying it over and over and over.
Speaker 2: And I walk into the church and my intention was
Speaker 2: to get a cup of tea that they've got, maybe
Speaker 2: this biscuits or something I can drink or eat. And
Speaker 2: I walk inside and there's no one there, and there's
Speaker 2: this big cross there with like a sheet with all
Speaker 2: like someone's been spraying on something like paint or something
Speaker 2: on it. And I look at it and I actually
Speaker 2: get the sheet and I put it around my neck
Speaker 2: and I start praying, you know, like I don't know
Speaker 2: there's a God or not, but if you're there, hear
Speaker 2: my story, man, and I start praying to God, and
Speaker 2: then I just step off. And as I go to
Speaker 2: step off, some my man just comes straight through and
Speaker 2: grabs me and lifts me up and stop the actual
Speaker 2: drop bit of me dropping. And he sat down with me,
Speaker 2: and he was a priest and he started talking to
Speaker 2: me about God. And I'll screaming at him, brother, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, don't tell me about fucking God. Bro, you know,
Speaker 2: just God. You know I'm angry. You know I'm angry.
Speaker 2: And he gives me a poem. It's called Footprints. And
Speaker 2: I read that poem and I just fucking broke down
Speaker 2: in tears. Mate. It just made me cry. And I thought,
Speaker 2: because I believe there's something out there, a God, but
Speaker 2: I don't believe in religion or church as you know,
Speaker 2: because it just seems to be the catalyst for everything
Speaker 2: evil from from what I grew up with you. And
Speaker 2: but that was the first time. But what ends up
Speaker 2: happening is it turns into an arm robbery. I go
Speaker 2: into stayed the next day, I go to see him
Speaker 2: and he said, I stayed there night. Sorry. And the
Speaker 2: next morning he says to me, I said, I got
Speaker 2: to go, Bro. I said, I'm a heroin addict and
Speaker 2: I'm fucking in bad withdrawals. I've got to go, you know.
Speaker 2: I tell him that.
Speaker 1: So this is the dude that save you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And what happened is he says
Speaker 2: to me, what about I'll give you fifty bucks for
Speaker 2: that help. I said absolutely, you know, and like as
Speaker 2: an addict, it's like I'm better, I'm not because I know.
Speaker 2: I said, it's subconscient, right, And then I suddenly he
Speaker 2: says to me, no, I can't do it. My religion
Speaker 2: faith won't allow me to give you that money or
Speaker 2: whatever it is, you know. And so just to clarify
Speaker 2: it back, there was two men there, and it was
Speaker 2: actually another man who stopped me for falling.
Speaker 1: It was right.
Speaker 2: It came in and there, yes, built the relationship with
Speaker 2: Then what happens is I pick up a button knife
Speaker 2: and I put it to my neck and I hold
Speaker 2: it to my neck and I said, you don't fucking
Speaker 2: get it, bro, I don't want to be here, and
Speaker 2: then I threw it on the ground, right, that's it.
Speaker 2: I just threw it on the ground and he said, look, Lynn,
Speaker 2: let me drive you to the cross. And he drove
Speaker 2: me to the cross and I had a bag of
Speaker 2: clothing with me. He gave me the fifty dollars and
Speaker 2: he said, can I pray for you? And I said, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, and then he went to touch me. I said,
Speaker 2: just don't touch me. You can pray for me, Please
Speaker 2: don't touch me. I don't like being touched. So he
Speaker 2: prays for me. He said, how about you leave your
Speaker 2: clothes with me and you can come back the next
Speaker 2: day and get them and we'll wash them. I said,
Speaker 2: I wash them for you, and you can't come back
Speaker 2: and get them. Two weeks that's passed, and I'm passing
Speaker 2: through that area and I knock on the door and
Speaker 2: he goes, come in, come in, come in, welcome in.
Speaker 2: And so we go in and have a cup of coffee,
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, about fifty he goes, can
Speaker 2: I've got to go and do something. I'll come back.
Speaker 2: He's gone and ring the police. I didn't know this,
Speaker 2: and then two minutes later the police turn up, knock
Speaker 2: knock knock, and they arrest me and they charged me
Speaker 2: with the mar money with menace. Right then what happens
Speaker 2: is King's Cross Police. So I ended up getting put
Speaker 2: into jail for eleven months in MRC. But King's Cross
Speaker 2: Police learn of it and they change the charge and
Speaker 2: turn it to armed robbery.
Speaker 1: So robbery, So breaking that down to mean money with
Speaker 1: menace was the first one. Yeah, so that's okay. The robbery.
Speaker 1: It takes it to another level a completely the weapon
Speaker 1: that you're threatening someone to rob them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And so I ended up getting Supreme
Speaker 2: Court bail to Odyssey House, but I didn't make it.
Speaker 2: So what happens is pretty funny. My girl, the one
Speaker 2: that sat with my brother, she's at the court and
Speaker 2: as we're leaving, I said, i'll see you in ten
Speaker 2: minutes at the station. She's, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: They're escorting you out to Odissey House. I said, I'll
Speaker 2: see you at the station in ten minutes. We getting
Speaker 2: the bars, all of these guys that have been Supreme
Speaker 2: Court bail outdid us the house. And I'm sitting here
Speaker 2: a window and I'm skinny, little and attic, and it's
Speaker 2: about that much space, you know, to get out this window.
Speaker 2: And I look at into the guy and it starts
Speaker 2: like I'm oh, I know this, stay over there, and
Speaker 2: I'm pointing all this stuff they've sort of engraced in
Speaker 2: whatever it was I pointed to, and then Bush I
Speaker 2: ship out the window, gone, I'm at the station. And
Speaker 2: the sad part to this story is so I went
Speaker 2: up to her and I said, you got any money?
Speaker 2: She goes, yeah, should I'll give you fifty bucks or
Speaker 2: you can come with me and my daughter, I said.
Speaker 2: I looked at her and I thought, you betrayed me, mate,
Speaker 2: TU give me the fifty And I still kind of well,
Speaker 2: I don't now because I've had a beautiful After that,
Speaker 2: I mooved on it, but for that point in time,
Speaker 2: I felt sad. But I end up escaping and staying
Speaker 2: on the streets for ages, you know, using and stuff
Speaker 2: until I eventually get caught. So the police used to
Speaker 2: see me, right. I remember walking down the main street
Speaker 2: of the Cross and they're walking up eating an ice
Speaker 2: cream and they look up and they see me and
Speaker 2: I run towards them and I run down through this
Speaker 2: arcade and down Chapman Steps in the Cross and they're
Speaker 2: chasing after me, and I'm fast and they get to
Speaker 2: the top of the sets and I'm like, come on,
Speaker 2: come on. And I'm playing this game with them for
Speaker 2: about a week. Every time they see me, they're chasing me.
Speaker 2: They can't get an injury. I'm trying to help out.
Speaker 2: And then what happened is one day I score and
Speaker 2: I gave to this place. And so the day before
Speaker 2: I'm having a shot on a staircase and all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, someone must have come up from behind and
Speaker 2: hit me with a bottle. Because I'm laid out on
Speaker 2: the ground with blood coming out of my head. I
Speaker 2: think someone didn't like me using in the air, so
Speaker 2: it's come up from behind and on whack with a
Speaker 2: big goourney bottle. The next day, I go back to
Speaker 2: the same spot, but a different little part of it,
Speaker 2: right where no one can see me, and I'm shooting
Speaker 2: up but you can't get out of where I'm at.
Speaker 2: Suddenly those three detectives walk in and they're like, god A, Glenn,
Speaker 2: the fuck okay, you got me. I still my arm
Speaker 2: as they're doing it. I pushed it in. I thought,
Speaker 2: I'm not at least I'm going to have my whack
Speaker 2: before I go. You know what, actually I say they
Speaker 2: saved my life. They wouldn't like the irony of that,
Speaker 2: But putting me in jail they was not their intent
Speaker 2: at all. They wanted to get me, silenced me, to
Speaker 2: get me off the street, but me going to jail.
Speaker 2: It's sad to say this, but I actually enjoyed being
Speaker 2: in jail.
Speaker 1: I've read and about that's your your view on it,
Speaker 1: talk us through it.
Speaker 2: For the seven years prior to that, I'd slept in
Speaker 2: bloody parks, in the pouring rain. I'd slept in back alleys.
Speaker 2: I've been using every day. I was always looking over
Speaker 2: my shoulder for somebody I've robbed, ripped off all the police.
Speaker 2: You know, I was just tired. By the time I
Speaker 2: got to jail. I had three meals a day, I
Speaker 2: had a roof over my head. I had one hundred mates.
Speaker 2: Because I wasn't that tough guy in jail, I just
Speaker 2: got on with everyone. I was the friendly guy. Everyone
Speaker 2: just got a case.
Speaker 1: So you were staking your piece of ground in prison.
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, I didn't. That wasn't my role.
Speaker 1: People didn't see you as a threat threat.
Speaker 2: No, you know, everyone called me stretch. I was playing
Speaker 2: football one day and someone says, are you long, fellow,
Speaker 2: big fella, Stretch, give me the ball. And then from
Speaker 2: that day everyone called me stretch and it's a stretch,
Speaker 2: and it was like but they always said, he comes
Speaker 2: fucking stretch again with the bluey. I was always I
Speaker 2: used to run all the competitions in jail, touched football,
Speaker 2: whatever it was, you know. So that's how that knew me.
Speaker 2: I got my school certificate in jail. So one of
Speaker 2: the things that I did was I thought, right, this
Speaker 2: is my chance to learn to read and write. So
Speaker 2: I bought all these books. The only books I could
Speaker 2: get was I got the Bible, a book called seventy
Speaker 2: Times seven, and The Cross and the Switchblade. So they're
Speaker 2: the three books that I read to try and get
Speaker 2: more articulate and to learn words. Then I started to
Speaker 2: do my CGE General Certificate of Education, which is Equivalency
Speaker 2: DISCOL Certificate, which I did, and I got all these
Speaker 2: other things, did computer courses front end later first aid
Speaker 2: I spent my whole time in prison learning.
Speaker 1: That's when the system works, isn't it. I suppose you're
Speaker 1: unique in that your start to life was so shit
Speaker 1: prison looks better option luxury. How long's this been going on?
Speaker 1: That's but yeah, that is the system working. It doesn't
Speaker 1: work for everyone but someone that's in there. And credit
Speaker 1: to you, Credit to the system for allowing you to
Speaker 1: do it. But you've taken that opportunity.
Speaker 2: But it also taught me anger and hate. It also
Speaker 2: taught me that respect equals violence, that if someone's disrespectful
Speaker 2: to me, that that's met with violence. So it there's
Speaker 2: good and the bad. And I saw a lot of
Speaker 2: people come in to jail that stories not like mine.
Speaker 2: You know, they come in and they do these ones
Speaker 2: and they try and bounce around like a tough guy,
Speaker 2: and that gets sorted really fast.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, how long did you do? So?
Speaker 2: I did eleven months on raman and then two years
Speaker 2: eight months was my sentence. So I did two years
Speaker 2: eight months.
Speaker 1: And that's when you literally like, we haven't even talked
Speaker 1: about your education, but you had enough going on in
Speaker 1: your life early schooling. Did you do much schooling or no?
Speaker 2: So I did the only years I can remember. I
Speaker 2: was bounced around so much that only years four, five,
Speaker 2: and six and seven I did. I did half a
Speaker 2: year seven in a high school in Erina, and then
Speaker 2: I got put into Derek. Halfway through that, I started
Speaker 2: year eight and then I ran away. About three weeks
Speaker 2: into it, somebody punched my brother and I attacked him
Speaker 2: in the principal's office. I literally attacked him in the
Speaker 2: principal's office. And so I ran away that time as well,
Speaker 2: and I was institutionalized again. But yeah, I didn't do
Speaker 2: much schooling at all, and even when I was there,
Speaker 2: I was so messed up with my trauma and the
Speaker 2: kids bullying and like they I've actually joined one of
Speaker 2: the pages to the scrool I went to, and I've
Speaker 2: had so many people reach out to me and said,
Speaker 2: I Glenned, we'd had it only know and you know,
Speaker 2: like it hurts me saying it because it felt such
Speaker 2: a nice, needed moment. And I said to them, look,
Speaker 2: you could never have known what was going on in
Speaker 2: my life. You just couldn't, you know. But they knew
Speaker 2: I lived in the oldest house that I always smelt, like,
Speaker 2: you're right, So I had I wet the bed really bad.
Speaker 2: We didn't have hot water as a kid. We had
Speaker 2: an urn, and we didn't have a public toilet, proper toilet.
Speaker 2: We had one that was empty back then, and so
Speaker 2: everyone sort of knew me as the stinky, poor kid,
Speaker 2: you know, and it is cruel, but kids don't know,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: And I can see why you get the emotional where
Speaker 1: the kids probably gave you a hard time at school
Speaker 1: of reaching out and apologizing.
Speaker 2: There, Yeah, and I respect that, you know, like you know,
Speaker 2: someone says, you know that I should have done better,
Speaker 2: and I wished I did. And there was a couple
Speaker 2: that I that kind of knew what. They didn't know
Speaker 2: the extual side of it, but they knew that I
Speaker 2: was being subjected to extreme violence, you know, like it
Speaker 2: was visible. I had one story I as a kid,
Speaker 2: is I had to get up to go to school
Speaker 2: one day and I'm sitting at the bus stop my
Speaker 2: eyes like black, like really bad. And I get on
Speaker 2: the bus and the bus driver said, what happened to you?
Speaker 2: I said, I hit my head on the side of
Speaker 2: the corner of the door. He said, you do that
Speaker 2: a lot. Anyway, he drives about one hundred meters and
Speaker 2: stops at the front of my dad's house and then
Speaker 2: he walks up to the front door and I couldn't
Speaker 2: hear it. And this is a guy's about seventy years
Speaker 2: old and Clary right mag Man Bank, and you could
Speaker 2: see him, he's so animated. And I'm sitting in the
Speaker 2: bus like, what's going on? You know, because my dad
Speaker 2: teaches karate like he's a mushler, you know, he's a
Speaker 2: violent man. And but yeah, he gets back in the
Speaker 2: bus and he goes heter not be doing that again.
Speaker 2: I'll be knocking on the door every day and he's
Speaker 2: talking all the way to Still it is the only
Speaker 2: time in my life anyone stood up for me as
Speaker 2: a kid. And yeah, and then I ran away. I
Speaker 2: didn't come home.
Speaker 1: But he stood up for you.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: But I can see the smile on your face coming
Speaker 1: when you talking about that, because you wouldn't have had
Speaker 1: anyone fighting you.
Speaker 2: No, that's right. And that's the thing that I think
Speaker 2: that really strikes me with my stories. I didn't know
Speaker 2: where to turn, and the system that was supposed to
Speaker 2: protect me failed me and repeatedly failed me. And it's
Speaker 2: it's the systemic failures. My story are so many.
Speaker 1: Just you know, when you talk about the docs file
Speaker 1: and all that, and twenty two times you've been taken
Speaker 1: from your home by the time you're seven, or something
Speaker 1: very ridiculous. Hello, there's a pattern for me there. I
Speaker 1: don't know the breakdown of the system.
Speaker 2: And you had that with my medical records of the
Speaker 2: amount of times that I present to Mount Drew at hospital,
Speaker 2: nor sit in the hospital all these different hospitals. You know,
Speaker 2: I got stitches in my ankles, stitched in my fingers,
Speaker 2: I've got scars all over me made.
Speaker 1: When you were taken to the hospital with your carpet
Speaker 1: burns and your fingers, your fingers cut off, and the
Speaker 1: mum's obviously irrational screaming at screaming at the doctor. That
Speaker 1: would have been the moments that could have Yeah, if
Speaker 1: someone stepped in, that's when the difference could have been mate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are so many moments that I look back
Speaker 2: when I read through my files where I think that
Speaker 2: so many people could have done something and nobody did nothing.
Speaker 2: And that angers me more than the people who hurt me,
Speaker 2: because I'll never be that guy, Gary, even if it
Speaker 2: hurts or cost me my life. If as someone hurting
Speaker 2: a child, bro, I can tell you right now I'm
Speaker 2: stepping in and I feel every person should you know, I.
Speaker 1: Think you're right. Yeah, if we can't protect it's a
Speaker 1: mark of society if we can't protect the vulnerable, and
Speaker 1: the most vulnerable are kids. That's right, absolutely, Okay, so prison,
Speaker 1: you've got an education, or if you've learned to read,
Speaker 1: you start to appreciate the finer things. You got some skills, Yep,
Speaker 1: when you left prison, did you have a game plan
Speaker 1: of where your life was going to.
Speaker 2: So when I got out, they wanted me to get
Speaker 2: a job and a place to live. I don't even
Speaker 2: have a family mate. Am I going to do that?
Speaker 2: So I met some Christians and they gave me a
Speaker 2: job as a carpenter ap preentice carpentry, and I live
Speaker 2: with them. But when I got out, the woman tried
Speaker 2: to come on to me. She was like seventy two
Speaker 2: year old. She walked up behind me one day and
Speaker 2: I just come out of the gym. She's got a
Speaker 2: hands all avery. I'm like, fuck this man, I'm out
Speaker 2: of you.
Speaker 1: You know. Christian lady, Christian Lady's Christian.
Speaker 2: It was very un Christian. Yeah, But the problem was
Speaker 2: that my addiction, Gary was doing push ups for me
Speaker 2: waiting outside, although I never used the entire time I
Speaker 2: was in prison.
Speaker 1: And that prove me again explain that one I like
Speaker 1: the same just explained.
Speaker 2: Well, what I mean is that I hadn't been treated.
Speaker 2: And that's the part of our system that does fail
Speaker 2: us that we put people into a time warp and
Speaker 2: know they're still a heroin atic. You know, I'm a
Speaker 2: long believer that we should move away from punitive and
Speaker 2: move towards rehabilitation when it comes to drug related offenses. Now,
Speaker 2: when it comes to offense against children women, you know,
Speaker 2: they said, I think that's a different story, bro. But
Speaker 2: when we're talking about people who recidi is keep going
Speaker 2: back and back again because of drug addiction. They come in,
Speaker 2: they clean, they get themselves all good, then they walk
Speaker 2: out the door, bang they use again, and many of
Speaker 2: them drop or die or homeless.
Speaker 1: Well, you talk like, when you release from prison, want
Speaker 1: to get you a job, want you to do this,
Speaker 1: find the home and all that. You don't get much
Speaker 1: when you released from prison. You haven't got the CV
Speaker 1: that's going to get you get your job. So there
Speaker 1: is I think a fair enough thing a responsibility or
Speaker 1: it just makes sense that when you're released from prison,
Speaker 1: there's a pathway.
Speaker 2: That you can absolutely I think one of the things
Speaker 2: that I talk about often is I would like to
Speaker 2: see levels. So when you go into prison, I could
Speaker 2: say to you, listen, mate, you can do your four
Speaker 2: years jail in jail, or you can do four levels.
Speaker 2: Level one is we do anger management, narcotics, anonymous, we
Speaker 2: learn educations and we work our way through all these
Speaker 2: things so by the time someone comes out they're better
Speaker 2: equipped to live a life. I mean someone like me,
Speaker 2: that would have been ideal if somebody had taught me
Speaker 2: about my addiction, someone taught me a little bit about
Speaker 2: my trauma and my anger management, those kind of things,
Speaker 2: given me an education, and then at the end you
Speaker 2: do a bit of job release and get you an
Speaker 2: actual place and set you up. You know, I think
Speaker 2: that would have been a lot better than me trying
Speaker 2: to defend for myself. And that's what it basically is.
Speaker 1: Well, the high rate of recidivism, not just in New
Speaker 1: South Wales but across the country I speak, speaks of
Speaker 1: the fact that we haven't quite got it right. But yeah,
Speaker 1: giving something to work towards. And I know when I
Speaker 1: was doing the series Breaking Badness, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of people I saw in jail that were on lengthy
Speaker 1: sentences and you could see if I had the authority,
Speaker 1: and I'm not a bleeding heart or softy, I would
Speaker 1: sign the paperwork to let them out. They had clearly
Speaker 1: learned their lessons and they wanted to get back out
Speaker 1: and contribute to society. But we're going to keep them
Speaker 1: in there for another extended period of time, and who
Speaker 1: knows what they're going to be when they get out.
Speaker 2: I think what the viewer needs to understand, or Australia
Speaker 2: needs to understand, is that there's a difference between a
Speaker 2: sick person who needs to be weighing well as opposed
Speaker 2: to a bad person who needs to be made good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: And I think when comes to a sick person needing
Speaker 2: to be made well and heroin addict in addiction, if
Speaker 2: we look at those sort of programs away from punitive
Speaker 2: and move towards rehabilitation, I think that could work. Whereas
Speaker 2: with the bad people, I think, like there's some grubs broking,
Speaker 2: you know, they need to be in prison.
Speaker 1: I think and put in perspective like in prison and
Speaker 1: talk in prison, a large percentage of the prisoners that
Speaker 1: prick should never be released. Yeah, absolutely, like they know
Speaker 1: bad people, but scaring jail. It's the smaller percentage of
Speaker 1: the people that are in prison are the ones that
Speaker 1: can't turn around to their life around. Ken Marslow said,
Speaker 1: I've said a lot on the podcast, but I think
Speaker 1: it's a good way of looking at it. You've probably
Speaker 1: got thirty percent that have made the decision they're going
Speaker 1: to be criminals. They're going to they're going to try
Speaker 1: and score a dollar, and the price they pay, they're
Speaker 1: going to get the cents that might be twenty thirty percent.
Speaker 1: Then you've got the sixty percent probably sitting there that
Speaker 1: have made a mistake. They're not bad people. It might
Speaker 1: have been circumstances like like yourself, and they found themselves
Speaker 1: in prisons. They're the ones that you can change. And
Speaker 1: then the ten or fifteen percent, the real bad bastards, well,
Speaker 1: we can't can't help them.
Speaker 2: And the way the system set up now is that
Speaker 2: those fifty percent that are good to survive end up
Speaker 2: doing some of the messenis things in prison, you know,
Speaker 2: And I've seen that happen. I've seen good men come
Speaker 2: to prison and join into groups and the next minute
Speaker 2: they're shaving people or doing all sorts of stuff just
Speaker 2: to survive, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's that's the thing, isn't it survival?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. It changes men. I know the first
Speaker 2: time I got out of prison, you might have read
Speaker 2: it my book. I got into a punch on because
Speaker 2: I've been taught respect equals violence. Someone wouldn't shake my hand,
Speaker 2: and the next minute I'm punching like I literally he's
Speaker 2: behind the door and I'm kicking the door in. And
Speaker 2: the barman come over and said, mate, you got a choice.
Speaker 2: You can get attacks and go home. I can bring
Speaker 2: the police and you go back to Jaga. And I
Speaker 2: took the option to go home.
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people say that when they
Speaker 1: get out of the prison because they're so used to
Speaker 1: walking around, bridged up, ready to go at the moments
Speaker 1: know this, and then the gates to the prison are open,
Speaker 1: and then walking down the street and someone disrespects you,
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, accidentally bumping in or not shaking your hand,
Speaker 1: and you're so conditioned that you've got to react, and
Speaker 1: it's on again.
Speaker 2: I made a video just recently about justice for that gas.
Speaker 2: Right when I was telling you about we're walking together
Speaker 2: and we bump into each other and we're bad. You
Speaker 2: won't have a crack. You know, we do this full
Speaker 2: long thing and then we go literally little, and we
Speaker 2: go backwards, and then we do it again and I'm
Speaker 2: so sorry, bro, and he so sorry. One of the
Speaker 2: things I teach a lot of people to do now
Speaker 2: is when I call it monkey mantello. Two men walk
Speaker 2: down the street and they I bought each other and
Speaker 2: they just keep doing it. So someone said what what?
Speaker 2: And it starts when somebod's that to me, I smile
Speaker 2: and I go hi, mate, And ninety nine percent of
Speaker 2: the time they smile straight back because what I've done
Speaker 2: is I said you're safe. I'm safe, nothing to fear here, bro,
Speaker 2: and then we carry on.
Speaker 1: Well, you can the few It's interesting, you can the
Speaker 1: few situations I speak to young fellas and they go, well,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes you've got to punch on some times
Speaker 1: you've got to do this. And I use the example
Speaker 1: of bumping into each other at the bar. If someone's
Speaker 1: and we've all been there, someone's taken a dislike, had
Speaker 1: too much to drink or whatever and looking at you
Speaker 1: and they've got the shits with you, yeah, for whatever
Speaker 1: the reason is. And they might look at you and
Speaker 1: whether you're looking at mate, and I give people this too.
Speaker 1: If you said that to me, I'd go, sorry, mate,
Speaker 1: I'm just having a bad day, and you can walk
Speaker 1: away from it. You can diffuse it absoutely. We know
Speaker 1: we can, but it's that that instinct we have. Fuck this,
Speaker 1: I'm going to escalate it and take it up. But
Speaker 1: you can walk away from the situations, can't you.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I look, I work on the streets, and I've
Speaker 2: had people scream in your face and yell at me
Speaker 2: and all sorts of stuff. And now I'm able to
Speaker 2: one of the things I can do. Now, I'm better discernment.
Speaker 2: Great word. I sort of look at them and I think,
Speaker 2: what actually is going on for you? I can see
Speaker 2: them fasad, but what's actually going on underneath? And more
Speaker 2: often than not, at something trauma, it's a defense mechanism
Speaker 2: because they're actually afraid. And so I just sort of
Speaker 2: stepped back and I'm just continually being kind. And I've
Speaker 2: had there's been times, Gary, I've had somebody in my face.
Speaker 2: I'm like and then I've had to walk away and
Speaker 2: come back and say hey, and like come from another and.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you can control how many times have
Speaker 1: you looked back and gone and it might get physical.
Speaker 1: It might get physical, but you look back and I
Speaker 1: could have handled it a little bit differently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that.
Speaker 1: And so if you can stop and think before you react, react, Yeah, respond,
Speaker 1: don't react. But that's the thing when the prisons are
Speaker 1: set up that you have got to be ready to
Speaker 1: go at the moment. It's not some respects everything. And
Speaker 1: I can understand why bloke's coming out of there are
Speaker 1: just and it's it's not just about the bloat that's
Speaker 1: fucked up again and ends up back in prison. There's
Speaker 1: more victims in someone's someone's been hurt.
Speaker 2: I would say that people don't stand tall to stand up,
Speaker 2: which means you don't walk around on this. But if
Speaker 2: someone puts it on you, you go straight back. And
Speaker 2: it's not about winning or losing. It's about face, you know,
Speaker 2: That's all it's about. In respect. I'm you know back then,
Speaker 2: I loved being in it. When it was time to
Speaker 2: get out, I was afraid to get out, but I
Speaker 2: couldn't live that world.
Speaker 1: Now talk us through that, because that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Well, so for the last three months, you know, they
Speaker 2: come up, you know, your times wearing out. I'm now
Speaker 2: at a farm in oberon I've got a job. I'm
Speaker 2: working in education. Everyone's be made. I played football, chess
Speaker 2: every day. I got my own slot.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like I'm in my own room, you know, And
Speaker 2: but then suddenly I'm getting out. I remember feeling like
Speaker 2: for three months I ran a marathon, and to read
Speaker 2: that in the book, I came first iron and actually
Speaker 2: ran a marathon like I was. I just loved being
Speaker 2: in there. But when I got out, it was time
Speaker 2: to getting closer and closer to get out. I was
Speaker 2: getting this really bad anxiety. I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: know what I'm going to do where you know, how
Speaker 2: am I going to do this? Like I've never my
Speaker 2: everything in my life's been violent and you know all
Speaker 2: this stuff. I don't know how to survive in the world.
Speaker 2: I've never really maintained work or any of those things.
Speaker 2: I don't know what that looks like. And and because
Speaker 2: of that, I didn't take long for me to find
Speaker 2: myself back into that scene.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It was only because in nineteen ninety six I met
Speaker 2: someone and we'd had a little boy that the Woodraw
Speaker 2: Commission knocked on my door, and you know what they did,
Speaker 2: Like I know, they didn't mean it, but they still
Speaker 2: did it. I was sitting in my loungery with my
Speaker 2: partner at the time and bangman bang on the door,
Speaker 2: Kings Cross Police, like straight away, my heart stopped right
Speaker 2: because it's King Tross. Straight away I opened up. There's
Speaker 2: two women and a man. They are dressed in black
Speaker 2: and all in black clothing. Hi aware from the Woodraw Commission,
Speaker 2: You've been identified by multiple people as a victim of
Speaker 2: sex crimes in your time in the Cross in front
Speaker 2: of my partner, right in front of my partner. A
Speaker 2: little bit, it could have had a lot differently, And
Speaker 2: because I'd never told that part of my story to
Speaker 2: my partner, and so that was the first thing. I
Speaker 2: wasn't quite ready when they came forward, but I did.
Speaker 2: I put two men away through that case.
Speaker 1: I suppose you wouldn't have been trusting too.
Speaker 2: I didn't make King Tross Police. That in itself was
Speaker 2: an alarm bell for me, you know. And what's this
Speaker 2: Woodraw Commission you speak of, you know? And I tell
Speaker 2: them and stuff, and I gave some stuff half away,
Speaker 2: but not really all the everything. It wasn't until the
Speaker 2: next Rayal Commission into institutional abuse, where they took my
Speaker 2: full story.
Speaker 1: You put two people away.
Speaker 2: Yes, So in the Woodraw Commission, I put away a
Speaker 2: guy named Paul Chapman Jones, he was a counselor at
Speaker 2: the refuge, and a guy named Ken Foggery. He was
Speaker 2: the head of O'Brien Glass or I worked for O'Brien glass, sorry,
Speaker 2: and used to sit outside the park all the day.
Speaker 2: He's the one that raped me that time. I was
Speaker 2: telling you about that one that was quite violent.
Speaker 1: And was that just by providing a statement or did
Speaker 1: you do well?
Speaker 2: So a lot of other people had come forward as
Speaker 2: well in those particular two, including someone close to me,
Speaker 2: and so I spoke up as well, and I went
Speaker 2: to court against the both gave evidence that in the
Speaker 2: first case against Paul Chapman Jones. When we were at court,
Speaker 2: they broke for lunch and I was sitting out in
Speaker 2: my lunch and I looked up at the table and
Speaker 2: he's come up, like literally approached me in the inter
Speaker 2: room and he's gone, Glenn. He said, look, I'm really
Speaker 2: sorry for what I did to you when you were
Speaker 2: a little boy, and he mentioned another victim. And he
Speaker 2: went back to court and played guilty, but he was
Speaker 2: charged by multiple charges. He got eighteen months, right, eighteen
Speaker 2: months sentence. Then the other one he pled not guilty
Speaker 2: and fought it all the way through, got found guilty.
Speaker 2: He also got eighteen months. And I was like, at
Speaker 2: the end of that, mate, I'd just gone through all this,
Speaker 2: going around, the drive, around the hearings, you know, the
Speaker 2: whole thing. Because the problem with my cases was I
Speaker 2: was subjected to the time governing abuse, which meant that
Speaker 2: I was subjected to the laws of when my abuse occurred,
Speaker 2: which meant I had to be at every hearing every man,
Speaker 2: you know, everything, had to be at every fucking thing.
Speaker 2: And it was hard.
Speaker 1: Man. How did you find that? And were you're still
Speaker 1: using heroin?
Speaker 2: So I'd been clean and then what happened was because
Speaker 2: I was living in Leftgo, I had to catch the
Speaker 2: train every day to the Downy Center and I was
Speaker 2: making a detour ry the cross getting on and then
Speaker 2: I was sitting in court like this every day, like Onniqord,
Speaker 2: you know, just smash because I couldn't process it.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: It was the way that the solicitors for them would
Speaker 2: treat me. You know that. It's like it's changed now,
Speaker 2: but back then they could say just about anything they
Speaker 2: wanted to, you know, and like trying to make it
Speaker 2: all my fault.
Speaker 1: Just how long you've been using heroin for you just yea,
Speaker 1: yeah you went.
Speaker 2: To arm robbery, didn't you? And you know, and like
Speaker 2: are you gay?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: You know, you know, did you get an erection? You
Speaker 2: know I would have you got an erection? You must
Speaker 2: have enjoyed it, you know, like the things that they.
Speaker 1: Say, is that how they literally what.
Speaker 2: They said to me? You know, did you get it aroused?
Speaker 2: You know, did you get an erection? Did you did
Speaker 2: you like it? You know? You went to Paul twice?
Speaker 2: So therefore you know, like and it's it's just fat.
Speaker 1: So they can put that spin on it, and yeah,
Speaker 1: balance out with the fact that you're a kid at
Speaker 1: the time and being taken. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't want to give credit to a pedophile, but
Speaker 2: I will say that Paul Jones noticed what was happening
Speaker 2: in the court and I could see he was distressed
Speaker 2: by my distress, strangely enough, and he did, like I said,
Speaker 2: come up and apologize to me. And he's the only
Speaker 2: one that has and I do believe there was a
Speaker 2: genuine remorse and that man, but he still did what
Speaker 2: he did, right, you know, so that yeah, he apologized
Speaker 2: and that meant something to me. But the other one
Speaker 2: was quite coarse. And I've actually had people reach out
Speaker 2: to me at different stages about him like that are
Speaker 2: friends of his, you know, Like same with Simon. He
Speaker 2: works in the privacy sector. I had all these people
Speaker 2: saying you cannot speak online and talk about him until
Speaker 2: he's been convicted that because you know, but then I
Speaker 2: also someone else that reached in the privacy sector, and
Speaker 2: so He'm glad. I just want you to know that
Speaker 2: we're not all work in that area like that, you know.
Speaker 2: And I said, but the three guys that would really
Speaker 2: give me a hard time on Twitter messaging me the
Speaker 2: minute he got convicted, block block block orfully the block
Speaker 2: block block, because I was so ready to go, well
Speaker 2: what now?
Speaker 1: What what now? Yeah, Hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here.
Speaker 1: Want they get more out of VI Catch Killers, then
Speaker 1: you should head over to our new video feed on
Speaker 1: Spotify where you can watch every episode of VI Catch Killers.
Speaker 1: Just search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify
Speaker 1: app and start watching today. How does it feel face
Speaker 1: him down in court?
Speaker 2: Well, with Simon was the biggest one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about that, because that was a long,
Speaker 1: longer process process.
Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen they put out a red notice for
Speaker 2: Simon Davis. But I named him in the Woodrow Commission
Speaker 2: in ninety six I named him in my statement in
Speaker 2: twenty twelve and in the wood Rock in the Royal
Speaker 2: Commission instit institutional abuse. They allowed him to leave the
Speaker 2: country even though multiple people had spoken about him as
Speaker 2: the primary abuser. And he ends up going to London
Speaker 2: and then he gets catches win that this warrants come
Speaker 2: out right, so he flees to the Netherlands. So he's
Speaker 2: learned that if you go to certain places in Europe
Speaker 2: that they have statute of limitations and that you can
Speaker 2: use the statute of limitation laws to negate crimes in
Speaker 2: this country, which is frick and insane.
Speaker 1: It should be you would think it would relate to
Speaker 1: the country where the offense committed.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So what happens is there's four people who have
Speaker 2: made charges against Simon Davies and eighteen charges against him.
Speaker 2: Time he leaves the Netherlands, two of those victims have
Speaker 2: no longer got charges against him. I had thirteen against
Speaker 2: him turned into three, but I'll never forget the police.
Speaker 2: This is where for me, police change right, the sex
Speaker 2: clamed squad from Paramatta, Nick Sprows. I'll say his name,
Speaker 2: Beca is a beautiful man. He used to ring me
Speaker 2: every day. Hey, I played rugby league super coach. That
Speaker 2: is fantasy sport. I run podcasts for it, right, He
Speaker 2: bring about and goes, oh, Glenn, I'm doing my football side.
Speaker 2: You know who do you reckon? I should pick? And
Speaker 2: we just talked for an hour about footy or BBL. Right,
Speaker 2: But what he was doing was building a rapport. He
Speaker 2: was building a trust and he said to me one day,
Speaker 2: this says Glenn, I promise you. I know it's taking
Speaker 2: nearly a decade, he says, but I will fucking get him.
Speaker 2: And then of course COVID come in that made it
Speaker 2: even more difficult. And I'll never forget. The haard Man
Speaker 2: has kind of upset me again. He ran me from
Speaker 2: the airport from the Netherlands and he goes, hey, Glenn,
Speaker 2: how are you doing? I said good? Maybe he goes
Speaker 2: this and I just want to warn you that all
Speaker 2: over the news tonight, Simon Davey's been arrested. We got him,
Speaker 2: you know, And I just remember Garry, I said on
Speaker 2: the lounge with so bad depression. After all them court cases,
Speaker 2: I didn't move, I wasn't showering, I wasn't eating. I
Speaker 2: just sat there. I didn't know how to survive. I
Speaker 2: was literally on methadone, but I wasn't using drugs. I
Speaker 2: didn't know where to fit in. And I just kept thinking,
Speaker 2: they're never going to get him, They're never going to
Speaker 2: get him. And finally the time that he rang me
Speaker 2: up and he said, Glenn, I've got him, I felt
Speaker 2: like I was able to breathe again. But then when
Speaker 2: I went to court, the coward wouldn't come to court.
Speaker 2: He wanted to do it on the screen and he
Speaker 2: would not look across. But he caught up at the
Speaker 2: end and he made this big letter trying to you know,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry I'll let you down as a leader.
Speaker 2: And Jim and de clant to come up to me
Speaker 2: and she said, Glenn, I come up with exact words,
Speaker 2: but it's like you're one of the most bravest people
Speaker 2: I've ever seen speak, you know. She said, you are
Speaker 2: so articulate, and she said you are so better than
Speaker 2: that man. And I really appreciate those words at that
Speaker 2: minute from Dimni and deb Night. They're just some really
Speaker 2: lovely people out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think people do understand. And I know
Speaker 1: both the people you just mentioned, and they understand what
Speaker 1: you've been through. Yeah, yeah, we read that, we hear
Speaker 1: about it in the paper. But unless you sit down
Speaker 1: and actually speak to someone that have a full appreciation
Speaker 1: of what they've been through, it's just sort of gets
Speaker 1: lost in the news headlines, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: You know, when I told my story to the police,
Speaker 2: I remember them, the two police I'm talking about, they
Speaker 2: got their arms folded like this and they're listening to
Speaker 2: my crum sitting there, but they're sort of listening, and
Speaker 2: you could see that they were like, this is a
Speaker 2: good story, bro, and it's a lot you know, it
Speaker 2: doesn't make it and I'm trying to cut your fingers off, okay,
Speaker 2: and yeah, and this happened and that okay, you could
Speaker 2: see it. Yeah, they went away six weeks. They were gone, right,
Speaker 2: and I thought, well that's that. Then then they turned
Speaker 2: back and it was almost like they're excited. Those mean,
Speaker 2: we've been all around the country. We've spoken to so
Speaker 2: many kids from the cross and every single one Parrot
Speaker 2: of what you said. So what we want you to
Speaker 2: do is wear a wire. And I was like, are
Speaker 2: you're fucking kidding me? I'm not wearing a wire. But
Speaker 2: I did, and I'm glad I did because I got him.
Speaker 2: You know, that's the other one, Grant Morrow, So I
Speaker 2: ended up getting him as well.
Speaker 1: You went and wore a war and met.
Speaker 2: With Yeah, it's crazy. So they asked me.
Speaker 1: First, how do you feel. That's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2: I was scared, and I know scared the right word.
Speaker 2: It was like everything that had been taught to me
Speaker 2: that growing up was that still that crim side of me.
Speaker 1: It's on half laughing and you got to you've got
Speaker 1: to see some light and samrries. But I just know
Speaker 1: that I krim were a wire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a snitch, you know. And then that's when
Speaker 2: the police said to me, like, it's a different rule
Speaker 2: and so online as well. It's a different rule when
Speaker 2: it comes to those who abuse children, Glenn, And that's
Speaker 2: when I had that conversation with him about, you know,
Speaker 2: saying that everyone there after abuses. And now the funny
Speaker 2: thing was I put this wire on right, And then
Speaker 2: he had to drop his car off somewhere so they
Speaker 2: knew he was going to walk a path, right, But
Speaker 2: as I came out to where I'm coming up this way,
Speaker 2: I'm going to walk down that way, there's all roadwork
Speaker 2: in the three and so I think, fuck, I've got
Speaker 2: to rush past the roadwork so that they confined. So
Speaker 2: I did, I thought it. So I got past all
Speaker 2: the road works so that I met him at the
Speaker 2: corner and I walked past, and I sort of tapped hi,
Speaker 2: my dad as I kept walking past, and went Glenn,
Speaker 2: is that little Glenn? And I'm like, oh, hi, Graham,
Speaker 2: how trying to be nice and stuff. And they gave
Speaker 2: me a phone as well, So for a specific phone,
Speaker 2: I gave him the phone numb. He didn't contact me
Speaker 2: for two weeks. Then one night he rang me up
Speaker 2: drunk and just bang, he just blurted and blurted. As
Speaker 2: soon as they hung out, I got a call straight
Speaker 2: from the police. And this was late at night. Glenn.
Speaker 2: We got him and they say, can you organize a rendezvous?
Speaker 2: So what they did was they organized it so that
Speaker 2: I introduced him to a pedophile he thought was a pedophile.
Speaker 2: And this pedophile had a boy that was with his parents,
Speaker 2: and we needed to get him back from his parents'
Speaker 2: own So when I introduced Grant to this pedophile, he
Speaker 2: walks in. First, he slides a photo across the right,
Speaker 2: and I opened, there's two naked boys on the stomach
Speaker 2: at the refuge, right, And soon as I grab that,
Speaker 2: I slid it to the detective. Then I realized what
Speaker 2: I was doing, and I slid it straight back and
Speaker 2: just folded up and sat there. And that's when he
Speaker 2: said that thing. He said, He didn't It's like I
Speaker 2: wasn't even there. He is so engrossed with this guy.
Speaker 2: He thought it was a pedophile. They're just interactive and
Speaker 2: he's gone, yeah, and we targeted pretty pubis and kids
Speaker 2: that come from broken homes, and this is how we
Speaker 2: went about it. And he's given the game man and
Speaker 2: I was sitting there thinking, and the police said to
Speaker 2: me later on, I walked out, I need a cigarette.
Speaker 2: I needed to because I was angry at that stagment.
Speaker 1: I can imagine.
Speaker 2: But they rang me straight away. You're okay, you know.
Speaker 2: They were like, like I said, I saw a different face.
Speaker 2: And he said to me, going, I don't see myself
Speaker 2: as like a copper, he said, I see myself as
Speaker 2: an investigator investigating child crime. But can I just say this,
Speaker 2: what a fucking kind of a job, so to swear,
Speaker 2: but imagine being in that position, having to watch videos
Speaker 2: or hear the replays of those stories over and over,
Speaker 2: then go home to your children. How do you do that?
Speaker 1: Look, it's a very hard area of criminal investigation and sadly,
Speaker 1: and I think we're recognizing it more now, but they're
Speaker 1: always under resourced. Yeah, relatively, Junius. Sometimes you've got some
Speaker 1: of the more experienced ones that can stay on, but
Speaker 1: quite often inexperienced police officers and doing that. And yeah,
Speaker 1: people say, give q thos to investigating homicides unless you're
Speaker 1: after a serial killer or gangland. Yeah, the crimes happen,
Speaker 1: you're trying to find the person that it's done it,
Speaker 1: which there's pressure there. But with child sex abuse, you know,
Speaker 1: if you don't catch this preck other kids are going
Speaker 1: to be there's a lot of responsibility. And I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's great that you're talking talking some up because I
Speaker 1: would imagine your your starting point is you don't like
Speaker 1: cops from what you've experienced in the in the early years,
Speaker 1: So for you to talk talk it up, and I
Speaker 1: get the sense you see the cops that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: the good ones, they actually cared. And what the difference
Speaker 1: that makes too, It doesn't.
Speaker 2: I think one thing that I've learned, you know, there's
Speaker 2: good people and there's bad people. And that's in every
Speaker 2: sector of wherever anything flows, you know, whether it be
Speaker 2: in the tax department or we're in the police department,
Speaker 2: or in crime world. You know, I mean even the
Speaker 2: crim world. There's good people and there's people that are
Speaker 2: just really bad, inherently bad people. You know, there's a difference.
Speaker 2: And I have seen a different face to policing, you know.
Speaker 2: And I appreciate the way that they were so gentle
Speaker 2: through it because I was really struggling, and I really was,
Speaker 2: and and I almost suicided again, Like I guess I
Speaker 2: should tell you that, So I twice. So the first
Speaker 2: time was I took a heber. I went to a
Speaker 2: heroin dealer and I said how much you got? He said,
Speaker 2: I've got found of bucksworth. I said, I want the lot.
Speaker 2: I said, I'm out of you. I literally told him
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill myself. And I walked up to
Speaker 2: this church and I took the whole lot, stood nothing
Speaker 2: walked down the main street, lit go, walked into a path,
Speaker 2: got a glass of water, went banged and hit the deck.
Speaker 2: So luckily I was in the safe place to be here.
Speaker 1: But that says something about the dealer too, doesn't You're
Speaker 1: telling him I'm out of here. Well that's that's not good, mate.
Speaker 1: You probably shouldn't do that. But here.
Speaker 2: I won't say his name, but the irony is he
Speaker 2: actually overdosed about it a year later himself, which is sad,
Speaker 2: but you know, I guess he saw it from that's
Speaker 2: money to his own habit.
Speaker 1: So that's the way. Look, he's dealing with his own
Speaker 1: own demons.
Speaker 2: And then there was a third time, and the last
Speaker 2: one is a pretty I went to rehab. Before I
Speaker 2: went to rehab, what happened was, I'd been speeding on
Speaker 2: the gas for about a week and I'm fucking in
Speaker 2: another world and I just sat there again. I got
Speaker 2: that thought process, so I just don't want to be here,
Speaker 2: and I just kept looking around, thinking around. I thought
Speaker 2: there is nothing in this world, and there was, but
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that I want to be here for
Speaker 2: So I went down to the cliff of the tumba right,
Speaker 2: and I stand. I'm scared to deaf of heights, right,
Speaker 2: But I stand back from this cliff and I'm actually
Speaker 2: getting my carriage and I'm going to run and I'm
Speaker 2: going to jump. Where I was actually going to jump
Speaker 2: was actually a fence, and then there's another drop down
Speaker 2: but I didn't know that. But all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: as I'm about to go, I hear a voice and
Speaker 2: this guy says, hey, bro, And I look over and
Speaker 2: he goes, you know that people don't always die when
Speaker 2: they go over there, right, And I'm like, what you go?
Speaker 2: Sometimes they land at the bottom and all broken pieces
Speaker 2: and they've got to take hours to get them out.
Speaker 1: It was a smart, smart fellow that makes you think,
Speaker 1: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: And I was like, fuck a. My mind's already convoluted
Speaker 2: from seven days. I'm not sleeping pretty much, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm like, and I'm thought that'd be pucking
Speaker 2: my luck. I'll land on a tree and fucking break
Speaker 2: everything on the way down and sit at the bottom,
Speaker 2: and aren't thought fuck it. And then the funniest part
Speaker 2: of the story, right was I thought that he rang
Speaker 2: the police. So on the way back, every light, everything
Speaker 2: I'm ducking in under cars.
Speaker 1: All the way, getting your breakdownce and work there.
Speaker 2: And then what happened was the next morning a rehab
Speaker 2: bring me and said you've got a space in Caroliica
Speaker 2: in Canberra, which was the start of the change of
Speaker 2: my life. But while I was in Camber in rehab cant,
Speaker 2: I didn't know I had thyroid cancer and I had
Speaker 2: two other nahors on my back as well.
Speaker 1: You thought you were just getting rock and getting super fit,
Speaker 1: and look at me, I'm stripped down, lean me.
Speaker 2: I thought I was buff bro. And they called me
Speaker 2: into the office one day and they said, mate, can
Speaker 2: you get your stand on the scales? Mate? And she
Speaker 2: said you're six foot two and you weigh sixty six kilos.
Speaker 2: I said, okay, you said, I think something's not righty.
Speaker 2: They took me in. There's only two types of actual cancer.
Speaker 2: It's called atypical pattern and forliquda amphipedia. I had them both.
Speaker 2: I had five nodules and that was rage and I
Speaker 2: was very unwell. And I also had hepatitis C and
Speaker 2: I had two melanamers on my back. Yeah, so they
Speaker 2: had to and you can't treat thyroid and lither together,
Speaker 2: so they had to take a risk. They did that,
Speaker 2: did my radiation, all that treatment, then they put me
Speaker 2: through a new trial perhaps, so you got rid of that,
Speaker 2: and they cut the two things out of my back
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: So you went through the full full thing, full thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and okay, and you're still smiling.
Speaker 2: I'm still smiling.
Speaker 1: There's a quote I meant to say it in the
Speaker 1: first part of the podcast. I like it, and I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if you invented it. You probably probably didn't,
Speaker 1: but i've heard you use it. Is it don't let
Speaker 1: the past rob you of your future. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: that's a really I highlighted that because it's a really
Speaker 1: powerful thing to say it because so many people have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've had all these kicks in the guts, Like just
Speaker 1: when you think you're getting through, getting getting new shit together,
Speaker 1: cancer comes in the place another one. But you're still standing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're now doing doing some good stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well that's right. I turned. I started to its
Speaker 2: started off on TikTok. My daughter asked me to do
Speaker 2: a dance on TikTok. When you do a dance to me, Dad, No,
Speaker 2: this time, I may have a wait. I haven't showered
Speaker 2: in probably weeks, like being honest, not eating properly. I'm
Speaker 2: really not well. And she says, when you do a
Speaker 2: dance to me, TikTok dag. So so my money don't
Speaker 2: talk to jiggle jiggles. So my job was the jigle jiggle,
Speaker 2: you know. And then there're a bit of my rap dancing,
Speaker 2: you know. And then anyway, she's challenged me almost like
Speaker 2: you know, you're an old man, mate, no one's going
Speaker 2: to watch you on TikTok. I was like, okay, well,
Speaker 2: challenge accepted. So I went on and I read the
Speaker 2: back of my book. I got to about thirty thousand
Speaker 2: views and about a thousand followers.
Speaker 1: Street credibility with your daughter, then yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. She thinks I'm famous. Now about a
Speaker 2: hundred you know, it's a lot more, but she's But anyway,
Speaker 2: that's how it started out. And then what actually happened
Speaker 2: was I shared a couple of parts of my journey
Speaker 2: on TikTok and stuff, and people started reaching out to me,
Speaker 2: you know, and they were people from the past, you know,
Speaker 2: and they were like, bro, you know you need to speak.
Speaker 2: You know, you're articulate, you speak honestly. You know, you're
Speaker 2: not afraid, you know, because all of us are and
Speaker 2: are for different various reasons, whether it be family related,
Speaker 2: you know, there's old reasons. Yeah, and and it just
Speaker 2: grew into something and then that goes right. I was
Speaker 2: telling you about his an incredible story of his own.
Speaker 2: You know, he's big drug deal, all this stuff in
Speaker 2: by the me to Melbourne, and he sat me down.
Speaker 2: He said, bro, you've got a hell of a story.
Speaker 2: And he said, you know, you can really change hearts
Speaker 2: and souls, you know, if you just get your shit together.
Speaker 2: But I was still on some box of tone at
Speaker 2: the time, and I thought, fuck this, I'm going to
Speaker 2: get off it. And then when I was coming back
Speaker 2: from Melbourne, it was midnight and I caught the train.
Speaker 2: Bag don't even catch training in Melbourne. It's a fucking
Speaker 2: lot of tripment. But any way I did, and I
Speaker 2: got off the train. I saw all these homeless people
Speaker 2: at Central Station, where literally I used to sleep at
Speaker 2: one point in my life, and I thought, this is bullshit. Man,
Speaker 2: nothing's changed, you know. I thought, you know, I'm just
Speaker 2: going to I had seventy bucks, it's all I had
Speaker 2: to my name. I said, I'm going to spend this
Speaker 2: seventy bucks on these people and get to know their story.
Speaker 2: And I started doing that and I just kept backing up,
Speaker 2: backing up, backing up. And now it's going into an org.
Speaker 2: You know, like I'm running this shit. I've got a
Speaker 2: whole lot of volunteers at work with me now. And
Speaker 2: you know, we hand out swags, we had out sleeping bags,
Speaker 2: we hand out toiletries, we had out. But the biggest
Speaker 2: thing about it, Gary, it's not about the things that
Speaker 2: we give people. What it is is about connection. I'm
Speaker 2: trying to make people understand that, you know, show them
Speaker 2: that there's hope.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to show people is I'm living
Speaker 2: proof that you can come out the other end, that
Speaker 2: today's addict could be tomorrow's advocate. And we are. We're
Speaker 2: changing the minds. And it's three pronged. For me, It's
Speaker 2: not just about helping those on the street. It's about
Speaker 2: making Australia aware that when you walk past someone on
Speaker 2: the street and you step around them or you call
Speaker 2: them a name, that could be someone's mother, brother, sister, annie, uncle,
Speaker 2: is somebody somebody right. But more importantly, mental health is
Speaker 2: a epidemic on the street. It's absolutely heinous. There's this
Speaker 2: misnomer that everyone on the street to heroin, addict or alcoholic,
Speaker 2: and that's not true. I mean there's a percentage that,
Speaker 2: but there's also a huge percentage that are there. Because
Speaker 2: they closed all the institutions as you know, back in
Speaker 2: around twenty fourteen fifteen for mental health and just release
Speaker 2: them onto the street.
Speaker 1: It has created the problems and people that find themselves
Speaker 1: our the home and showing that little bit of connection
Speaker 1: you call it connection connection there. But yeah, little things
Speaker 1: like that can make can make the world a difference.
Speaker 2: That's right, and that's what we do now. And I've
Speaker 2: surrounded myself. One of the smartest things that I've done
Speaker 2: is I've surrounded myself with people who can do the
Speaker 2: things I cannot. You know, I don't have the education
Speaker 2: everyone else. It's what I do do well is connect.
Speaker 2: I can see, I get And the other thing is
Speaker 2: I don't. I always get down and sit with people
Speaker 2: and I'll spend whatever time it is with them, and
Speaker 2: I like they come up and hug me, Hey, bro,
Speaker 2: I love you. It's so beautiful the way I've built
Speaker 2: this relationships. But what's happened is by the people that
Speaker 2: I've got with me now because I've built this rapport,
Speaker 2: they instantly trust the people that I surround myself with.
Speaker 2: And I've got an Ai n I've got a woman
Speaker 2: that's going to university also from the Cross, so another
Speaker 2: history of our own. There's a whole lot of people
Speaker 2: you know that are now just incredible, incredible.
Speaker 1: That lived experience. What's it called?
Speaker 2: And how can people I've called the leg Up Project
Speaker 2: and so you.
Speaker 1: Can how can people follow it or see what.
Speaker 2: I actually have a Facebook page called the leg Up
Speaker 2: Project on Facebook, or you can follow my socials. We're
Speaker 2: about to create a web page, so we'll have a
Speaker 2: web page as well soon. I've got a podcast as
Speaker 2: you know. Of course, it's into the Cross on YouTube
Speaker 2: that I've just started because I tried. One of the
Speaker 2: problems is all the money from my book has been
Speaker 2: how I financed this up to now. So what I'm
Speaker 2: trying to do is trying to make a way where
Speaker 2: I'm able to fund it for not me doing it,
Speaker 2: you know. So I've created a YouTube page so that
Speaker 2: if I can monetize it, I can use that to
Speaker 2: do what I do on the streets because I give
Speaker 2: it So last two Christmases in a row, I gave
Speaker 2: out one eight hundred worth of gift cards the year
Speaker 2: before last and last year I gave out twenty eight hundred.
Speaker 2: I addressing is the drink this year. And on Christmas
Speaker 2: Day and Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve, I go with the
Speaker 2: church they give out presents. And then on Christmas Day,
Speaker 2: I just what I do is I ask Australia just
Speaker 2: send me a Christmas card, write a beautiful little message
Speaker 2: in it, and just stick at ten on the gift
Speaker 2: card inside and I'll hand that out on the street
Speaker 2: and I go live, so people get to literally watch
Speaker 2: me do it.
Speaker 1: Good on you. Wow, let's give the book of promo
Speaker 1: pass over here you follow up to the camera. Can
Speaker 1: people get the book?
Speaker 2: So it's several ways. It's called Predator's Paradise. So most
Speaker 2: people message me they want to get it directly from me,
Speaker 2: but you can get it on Amazon, Kindle, book tape
Speaker 2: or all the places. But now it's on all twenty
Speaker 2: four platforms of audio. I've actually had Channel seven do
Speaker 2: it for me and make it. The only one that's
Speaker 2: not out on is Audible, but it will be in
Speaker 2: the next week. It's just that the picture. They didn't
Speaker 2: accept my picture, so we had to put a different
Speaker 2: picture there for the actual book, and we've now called
Speaker 2: it King's Cross a Predator's Paradise for audible.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, you've heard just a snippet of Glenn's story today,
Speaker 1: and the book goes into a lot more detail and
Speaker 1: there's so much, so much, I say, fascinating them. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if that's the right word. That's just really
Speaker 1: if you want to understand someone's life that didn't start
Speaker 1: off the right way, but you've come through it, it's
Speaker 1: an inspiration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have come out the other end. And one
Speaker 2: of the main reasons, like I said, I don't talk
Speaker 2: about my family, but that is the catalyst. The main
Speaker 2: reason for me is I don't want to see history
Speaker 2: repeat and it was repeating. I'm telling you, that's where
Speaker 2: it was going. And after rehab, you know, one of
Speaker 2: the best things rehabbed in for me was it made
Speaker 2: me realize that I didn't know shit. You know, I
Speaker 2: thought I knew a lot, like everything I knew was wrong.
Speaker 2: And that's pretty much what I had to start from
Speaker 2: scratch and rehab and start to learn about owning my shit.
Speaker 2: You know, start to own my behavior and start to
Speaker 2: change myself from the core. And I've done that. But
Speaker 2: the biggest catalyst for me was understanding the undercurrent to
Speaker 2: my addiction was trauma. And once I started to realize
Speaker 2: I've actually got PTSD, I have ADHD and all the
Speaker 2: other fucking leaders of the alphabet.
Speaker 1: Probably I could just keep having.
Speaker 2: But you know, the main one being PTSD. I don't
Speaker 2: think my trauma will ever fully go away, but I
Speaker 2: have better tools now to manage it.
Speaker 1: And that's that's the thing. It's not going to go
Speaker 1: away itself. That's all in the past. It's always there.
Speaker 1: But you've got the tools. Yeah, and I would imagine
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing, and yeah, it would be
Speaker 1: bringing a good random act of kindness, which you're doing frequently.
Speaker 2: It's good to this absolutely, and the following that I
Speaker 2: have on social media, it's not just there. Like so
Speaker 2: many people reach out to me and share with me,
Speaker 2: you know they're suffering. I get so many mums and
Speaker 2: dad reached out about their child there, you know, the parent,
Speaker 2: whatever it is. You know, like shed one last story
Speaker 2: with you, because this is really one that I really
Speaker 2: touched my soul. I was walking into a post office
Speaker 2: and a woman come out with two little kids and
Speaker 2: she said, oh, you glenn off TikTok. I said, yes
Speaker 2: I am. She goes, please give you a hug, and
Speaker 2: then she started hugging me and she was almost sobbing,
Speaker 2: and I was like it was a little bit creepy
Speaker 2: at first. I'm like, what's going on here? And then
Speaker 2: she lets me go and she goes. Four weeks ago
Speaker 2: and my husband is an alcoholic, had a violin thro
Speaker 2: and stuff like the house. He hits me all the time.
Speaker 2: So we've split and left him. But before we left,
Speaker 2: my daughter grabbed one of your videos press play and
Speaker 2: put it in front of him and said watch that,
Speaker 2: then walked out the door. He rang her up about
Speaker 2: two weeks later and confessed to his own history. Right
Speaker 2: he's now. I think it's seven months nearly eight months
Speaker 2: sober in a rehab.
Speaker 1: There's a lot to people have got to own, haven't they.
Speaker 1: That's a starter time and that example you just provided.
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, wow, what you're making a difference. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and making a difference. That must feel good.
Speaker 2: It does feel good, you know, Like I was. I
Speaker 2: was going to say I was a part of the problem.
Speaker 2: I was the fucking problem. I'm telling you, I was
Speaker 2: the problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: And now I want to be a part of the solution.
Speaker 2: And I know that's cliche, but it's legit what I
Speaker 2: want to do. I want to use whatever time I've
Speaker 2: got left on this earth to I feel like my
Speaker 2: whole life Gary has been gives me the experience to
Speaker 2: do what I do. You know, that's the one good
Speaker 2: thing that's come from all that trauma is that I'm
Speaker 2: able to empathize recognize what someone else is going through.
Speaker 2: I'm able to step back and instead of seeing the
Speaker 2: facade of someone, I see the heart of someone. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, And and that makes me able to connect
Speaker 2: on a level a lot of people can't.
Speaker 1: And and the courage to talk out like you've yeah
Speaker 1: talked out about because that's that and that's why the
Speaker 1: things that happened to you were allowed to happen because
Speaker 1: people didn't talk about it.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Stigma, it's powerful stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, well, I am glad we've got you on I
Speaker 1: catch killers and you've got a lot of people that
Speaker 1: keep hitting me over the head with it going. You've
Speaker 1: got to get it, get him on get him on.
Speaker 1: Yeah ye, but yeah it's great and sitting down and
Speaker 1: chatting with you and just full credit to you, mate,
Speaker 1: I seriously say this. I was inspired by the way
Speaker 1: you've got through all the shit that was thrown at
Speaker 1: you and you've come out the other side and you're
Speaker 1: doing some really good work and you've made me reflect
Speaker 1: on what said. When you walk past people laying on
Speaker 1: the road, the people that haven't got a home for
Speaker 1: the time being, and.
Speaker 2: Bonus is free, Gary, it takes a minute to stop
Speaker 2: and say, hey mate, my name's Gary.
Speaker 1: How are you doing? You know?
Speaker 2: Could I buy you a coffee? You know? And the
Speaker 2: coffee's token is the it's the actual connection, you know,
Speaker 2: just say I see you, bro, you know, because you know,
Speaker 2: I know. When I was on the street, people used
Speaker 2: to walk past me. I felt like I was invisible,
Speaker 2: or if I wasn't invisible, people would say the most
Speaker 2: enous and horrible things to me, and I go home
Speaker 2: to your mother or and they didn't realize that wasn't
Speaker 2: an option for me. I didn't have that option. And
Speaker 2: we don't know what someone's going through until we know,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Not good good way to finish all the best for
Speaker 1: the future and stay in touch.
Speaker 2: Absolutely cheers, absolutely thanks Gary,