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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Glenn Fisher.

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Speaker 1: If you listen to part one, you would have heard

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Speaker 1: Glenn talk about the horrific childhood he had experienced. If

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Speaker 1: you thought Glenn's life must have got better from there,

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Speaker 1: you're in for a shock, because in part two he

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Speaker 1: talks about it and it certainly didn't got a lot worse.

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Speaker 1: Addicted to heroin for thirty five years prison sentences, the

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Speaker 1: betrayal by the only two people he trusted enough to love,

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Speaker 1: and his attempts to take his own life, plus a

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Speaker 1: whole lot more. But Glenn also talks about how he

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Speaker 1: turned his life around, how he got justice against his abuses,

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Speaker 1: how he gave evidence at four court matters to get

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Speaker 1: his abuses convicted, giving evidence at two royal commissions, and

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Speaker 1: how he is now giving back to society. Glenn's story

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Speaker 1: is as dark as it is inspirational. Have a listen,

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Speaker 1: and I think it might just put in perspective how

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Speaker 1: lucky the majority of us are. Glenn Fisher, Welcome back,

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Speaker 1: Part two. I'm going to apologize, and I probably don't

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Speaker 1: have to. You've told me it's all right to talk

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Speaker 1: about things, but I'm taking in some dark places. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I apologize up front, but I think and I agree,

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Speaker 1: I believe you agree with it. It's important to talk

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Speaker 1: about the things that you've experienced because there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of people out there that wouldn't have the courage is

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Speaker 1: probably not the right word, but for whatever reason, don't

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Speaker 1: feel comfortable in coming forward and talking about the type

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Speaker 1: of things that you talk about.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of stigma and shame around abuse, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I know for myself as just think, how did

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Speaker 2: I let somebody do that to me? You know, And

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Speaker 2: that's probably what sits with a lot of people, you know.

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Speaker 2: But I think if I write in my book, this

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Speaker 2: isn't a mean story, this is a wee story. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is a story about a lot of children who

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Speaker 2: went through this and were abused. I've just one that

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Speaker 2: to live to tell.

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Speaker 1: You know. That's the insidious part about child sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: isn't it That leaves the victim so traumatized and they're

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Speaker 1: even blaming themselves. But that's part of the manipulation they

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Speaker 1: do that for the people that are up braying on

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Speaker 1: these kids know that they can get away with things

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Speaker 1: because that's what they leave the kids with.

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Speaker 2: They come across like they're doing you a favor, you know, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you need money to get on. I can help you out,

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Speaker 2: you know, just for this cost, you know, and you'd

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Speaker 2: like a hanging out and with drawn, can you give

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Speaker 2: me the money first year?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Okay, And you know you can get doing your favor,

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Speaker 2: you know, And they're not you know, and you've been

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Speaker 2: programmed that way prior, you know.

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Speaker 1: I love the fact that you're talking about this and

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Speaker 1: it's almost like an avenging angel coming in. And these

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Speaker 1: people that have been involved in this, they must have

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Speaker 1: people like you talking. They'd be thinking shit. But when

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Speaker 1: am I going to get that knock on the door

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Speaker 1: and when I'm going to be called into account? I hope? So. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I have a lot of sleepless nights, absolutely, because

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Speaker 1: the lives that they destroyed. Just before we take you

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Speaker 1: back in the dark stuff, just to give you a sense,

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Speaker 1: give our listeners a sense of how far are you coming?

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Speaker 1: I think it's in the day. I'll say you're heading

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Speaker 1: down to Canberra. By the time people listen to this podcast,

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Speaker 1: you will have spoken on the steps of Parliament House

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Speaker 1: downing Canberra. What's that about?

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Speaker 2: So it's called Zero Suicide. A friend of mine, Paul,

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Speaker 2: runs it every year and it gets us to come

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Speaker 2: down and speak. We lay out twenty five hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty five shoes this year to represent and every life

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Speaker 2: lost to suicide. And I've been asked all over the

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Speaker 2: country to speak at different events and I'm making meeting

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Speaker 2: up with Malcolm Roberts on the day before. He wants

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Speaker 2: me to go on a podcast with him as well.

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Speaker 2: Share my story and and then I'll be speaking out

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Speaker 2: the front of Parliament with a lot of other creators,

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Speaker 2: a lot of influencers to try and you know, show

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Speaker 2: people just we need to stop this in its tracks.

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Speaker 2: You know, we need a men's minister. That's what we're

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Speaker 2: pushing for, is to get a men's minister to deal

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Speaker 2: with men's mental health and our situational distress.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, talk on that a little bit more. Why you

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Speaker 1: think specifically for men.

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Speaker 2: Well, because eight out of every nine that have died

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Speaker 2: is a male. You know, that's the problem. The leading

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Speaker 2: cause of death in our country between the age of

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Speaker 2: fifteen and thirty five is suicide. You know, that's catastrophe.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: The only thing that's measuring near it now is dementia.

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Speaker 2: You know, and that's only just a recent state that

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Speaker 2: I read the other day. But you know, we're losing,

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Speaker 2: like I said, somebody every three hours. Why this podcast

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Speaker 2: has happened, We've lost someone. It's terrifying. And as a father,

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Speaker 2: as a grandfather, that terrifies me. You know, I'd hate

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Speaker 2: my kids to think that that's an.

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Speaker 1: Option and it's not a simple fix. But to talk

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Speaker 1: about things like that, I think helps it. There are

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Speaker 1: people who have been in that lower step that I

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Speaker 1: want to talk or can talk about it. There are

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Speaker 1: places where people can talk about.

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Speaker 2: And specifically with men. I mean women are quite good

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Speaker 2: at talking with each other about things that are going on.

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Speaker 2: Us men we've been like to swallow it and say nothing,

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Speaker 2: you know, and that's how we roll.

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Speaker 1: I'm laughing because I know what you're saying. And I

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Speaker 1: just know you hang out with a mate and their

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Speaker 1: wife knows more about people's lives and your mate. What

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Speaker 1: did you talk about? We just said good day, We

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Speaker 1: talked about the football, We did this, we did how

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Speaker 1: you go on good? Yeah, like I dare say, you know,

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Speaker 1: we'd pass each other in the street. There are you

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Speaker 1: going good? Mate? How are you good? And that's that's

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Speaker 1: the depth of it. So good on you for working

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Speaker 1: in that space, in that space to the one thing.

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Speaker 1: And I know how sensitive you are to it because

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Speaker 1: you've told me on a number of occasions. And we

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Speaker 1: talked about the girl that you found in the cross

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Speaker 1: and you fell in love with her, and that was

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Speaker 1: basically your first girlfriend and world looked a little bit

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Speaker 1: brighter in the dark world that you were living in

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Speaker 1: because of her. Do you want to tell us about her?

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Speaker 1: Is it aka if I use the name Linda Kirby, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: something with the start of it. That's just beautiful to

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Speaker 1: start off with. So her family were going through her

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Speaker 1: stuff just recently, about a year ago, and when they

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Speaker 1: were going through their stuff, they found a photo and

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Speaker 1: on the back it said Linda loves Glen Fisher. And

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Speaker 1: they're like, who is this Glen Fisher? So they google

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Speaker 1: Gleen Fisher and you know, everything comes up and it's

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Speaker 1: my book. They buy my book. They opened up the

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Speaker 1: book and on the very first page it says, dedicated

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Speaker 1: to Linda Marie Kirby. I've now been in touch with them.

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Speaker 1: I have this relationship with them and other kids who

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Speaker 1: have died in across his family too. Well. I get

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Speaker 1: a chill down my spine when you just teld that

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Speaker 1: that's beautiful, wasn't it?

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Speaker 2: It is feutiful? And I sat with them and one

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Speaker 2: of them just passed just in the last two weeks.

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Speaker 2: But the other I met the mum and the niece

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Speaker 2: and the brother and you know, and they all of

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Speaker 2: the ones that reach out to me. I was so

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Speaker 2: worried about sharing the story of other kids and they said, no,

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Speaker 2: and you've humanized my daughter. You've brought it to life.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, tell us about Linda and tell us about

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Speaker 1: your relationship. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So we first met, as I said, we were side

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Speaker 2: both side, like we were just two big kids, you know,

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Speaker 2: we were little kids and were running around with She

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Speaker 2: was kind of like the leader of the girls. I

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Speaker 2: was kind of like the leader of the boys. And

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Speaker 2: I wasn't the leader because I was tough. I was

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Speaker 2: a leader because I didn't shut up. That's why I

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Speaker 2: was the leader. That's kind of how we rolled.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: But she started some older boys came in from town

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Speaker 2: hall in different areas and she started using heroin and

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Speaker 2: so I ended up checking up with this other girl.

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Speaker 2: I'm a breakdan. So I used to break dance on

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Speaker 2: the street. I was quite good.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I've never had a breakdancer on the high catch

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Speaker 1: killer right cameras roll.

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Speaker 2: The other day on TikTok and someone said that's a

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Speaker 2: for sure, that's a I was.

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Speaker 1: Like a compliment. Yeah, yeah, that's a great compliment.

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Speaker 2: But what ends up happening is I go to South

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Speaker 2: Australia to go into a dance competition. They reckon this

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Speaker 2: this group's the best dancers in Adelaide, and I know

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Speaker 2: they're not right in my I'm a good dance and

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Speaker 2: I know it, so I'm going up there to prove it.

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Speaker 2: So I head off up to South Australia and We're

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Speaker 2: going this dance competition. I create a little group called

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Speaker 2: the Megazoids. I had by us, sorry Insydney, we had

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Speaker 2: a group called the Megazoids. Mega means many, zoids mean

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Speaker 2: street people. But up there we made one called the

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Speaker 2: Electrical Connection, right, and we we practice all these routines

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Speaker 2: to go in this competition.

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Speaker 1: We win.

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Speaker 2: We actually win the competition. As I'm coming out of

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Speaker 2: the competition, I'm walking down the stairs. One of the

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Speaker 2: kids from the refuge, Jean Chapman, who just also recently died,

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Speaker 2: is at the bottom of the steps and I'm walking down.

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Speaker 2: I sorrdly, you see this bra did you see us?

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Speaker 2: And he's looking really somber and he goes, Linda's dead, sorry,

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Speaker 2: And I was like what And I grabbed him, thro

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Speaker 2: him against the wall and like John could have picked

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Speaker 2: me up and tossed me, but he just he just cleaned.

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Speaker 2: I'm serious, Linda's dead and fucking ripped my heart out, mew.

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Speaker 2: I just sat down on the spot and I was like,

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Speaker 2: fucking kidding me. What had happened is for the heroine

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Speaker 2: two bolts had asked a young girl to find a girl,

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Speaker 2: a kid, you know, fifteen year old just turned sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old girl. She went with them, They gave the heroin,

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Speaker 2: she dropped. They didn't know what to do. They were caught, convicted,

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Speaker 2: got twenty years jail. Then they went before Judge Elden

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Speaker 2: and on appeal got it dismissed. Altogether, it's because of her.

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Speaker 2: I've written my book. It's because of her. I do

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Speaker 2: everything I do today. But that's why I went up

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Speaker 2: to that abuse when I was just Linda just died

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Speaker 2: and I walk up and I was like, you you

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Speaker 2: I'm going I'm going to hold you responsible.

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Speaker 1: That's when you told me.

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Speaker 2: That's when I told him. There it was like I

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Speaker 2: just got I had to hit Shike back from South Australia.

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Speaker 2: What happened was I was doing dancing and I had

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Speaker 2: nun chuckers on me. I had them down my legs,

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Speaker 2: you know, he was carrying them down there and I

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Speaker 2: got pulled over by the police in gold and they

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Speaker 2: arrested me back then. Nunchuckers is the same as carrying

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Speaker 2: a firearm. It's a section thirteen A nine a preces nine. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I got I kept in the cells for two

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Speaker 2: weeks while her funeral was on side. I missed her

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Speaker 2: funeral and but I end up hit choking back to

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Speaker 2: the cross and sadly, Gary, that's where I actually become

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Speaker 2: a heroin addict. You know, I was like at that point,

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Speaker 2: I U speed coke. I not I sorry trips pot drink,

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Speaker 2: but I'd never put a needle been in the hand

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Speaker 2: that was taking the next step I did. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to know what it was. And the sad thing was

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Speaker 2: that because of all my trauma, it was like my

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Speaker 2: head never stopped. It was like I had all these

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Speaker 2: flashbacks in my head and visions. And the sad reality

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Speaker 2: for me was when I picked up her on it

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Speaker 2: was like my body realigned. It was just like that's

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Speaker 2: the answer, which was a lie because people don't understand

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Speaker 2: that that you chase that for the rest of your

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Speaker 2: life trying to get that realignment. You spend more time

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Speaker 2: in withdrawals and hanging out and chasing the dragon and

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Speaker 2: money than you ever do actually start trying to.

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Speaker 1: Get you back to feeling okay, and that's what you're chasing.

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Speaker 2: And then withdrawals, it was manifested. Those feelings were exasperated.

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Speaker 2: It was even worse. So I get all these flashbacks

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Speaker 2: and trauma and it was horrible. But I never coped

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Speaker 2: with her, and she was the first. I mean, I

246
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Speaker 2: watched the many kids die, you know, another girl, bam bam.

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Speaker 2: There's so many of them, Sharon Tracy. There's a lot.

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Speaker 1: It's just such a waste of life, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Especially her. She was so vivacious, bubbly, she was talented,

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Speaker 2: she was smart, she was a leader, she was just

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Speaker 2: everything beautiful, you know. And yeah, her life.

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Speaker 1: Two that were convicted did was it just the sentencing reduced.

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Speaker 2: Or was completely dismissed. Yeah, but I only found these

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Speaker 2: out as an adult.

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Speaker 1: And we don't know what's gone on with the court matter.

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Speaker 1: But when you're talking about justice yelled them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah he's a pedophile.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's that's been widely reported.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it's a non fact.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, ended up taking his life at the wood draw

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Speaker 2: Commission suicided.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my understanding after the investigators spoke to him a

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Speaker 1: couple of times, and then he ended up committee suicide. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: following that, And that's that's scary, isn't that the person

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Speaker 1: in the position of that power.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean and not only that, I mean

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Speaker 2: he's a compromise judge. The police also knew that he

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Speaker 2: was compromised the ones that work corupt in the Cross,

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Speaker 2: so they were able to take advantage of that as well.

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Speaker 1: Well. I read somewhere that they were charges against him

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Speaker 1: or he was arrested and charges weren't laid whatever, So

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Speaker 1: there was an assumption that he was given a pass

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Speaker 1: or led off.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's well known on the street that he was

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Speaker 2: given a pass. And he's not alone there. There was

277
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Speaker 2: a lot of them. Like I said, they used to

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Speaker 2: hold it over them, you know, photos or you know,

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Speaker 2: whatever it was that they had on them, and it

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Speaker 2: allowed you know, like there was high profile men coming

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Speaker 2: to King's Cross and buying children. It was like it

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Speaker 2: was like going to a coffee shop and buying a

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Speaker 2: cup of coffee. You know, they just come down and

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Speaker 2: be able to purchase a kid.

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Speaker 1: What the discussing, Well, do you concern them? We can't

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Speaker 1: mention names because you and I end up in court,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to go back to court. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think you want to go to court.

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Speaker 2: I'm done with the court.

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Speaker 1: But do you feel at risk because you are speaking up?

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Speaker 2: I did for years. I had a lot of fear

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Speaker 2: around it. I have more fear around to people I

293
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,400
Speaker 2: loved and me, you know, putting them in any kind

294
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Speaker 2: of danger. But I got in my head, I thought

295
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Speaker 2: I cannot not speak. They're all dead, Gary one, Bay one.

296
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Speaker 2: I've watched them die and the last one just recently, Marlene,

297
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Speaker 2: she had They're all dying a liver disease or suicide

298
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Speaker 2: or alcoholism or addiction overdoses. And I just thought, you know,

299
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Speaker 2: each one of these to reach out to me, and

300
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Speaker 2: so I just love you, and you're so brave taken

301
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Speaker 2: these guys to court. You know, we're proud of you,

302
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 2: behind you, And I just thought I have to talk.

303
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Speaker 2: You know, I need people to know, people like Linda, Marlene,

304
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Speaker 2: you know Bam Bam existed, you know my brother, you

305
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 2: know all these different people. You know, it's like I

306
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Speaker 2: have to speak.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to some law points in your in

308
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Speaker 1: your life, and they're addicted to heroin for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and I think you're still on the edge. Quite a

310
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Speaker 1: few times. We've just your heroin use. But you made

311
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Speaker 1: some over the attempts to take your own life. What

312
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Speaker 1: what was a lead up to that?

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Speaker 2: So the first one was for seven years, I was

314
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Speaker 2: using on the streets, dropping all the time. I made

315
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Speaker 2: like thirteen overdoses in a period of two years because

316
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,880
Speaker 2: I started taking pills. But I ended up meeting a

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Speaker 2: woman and you know, we got engaged. I'm gonna have

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Speaker 2: a baby, Shindy. She was pregnant. We just had a

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Speaker 2: little baby, and you know, and I loved this woman,

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Speaker 2: I really did. And then I got kicked off the

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Speaker 2: methadone program for violence, for fighting and it's the second

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Speaker 2: time I've been kicked off for violent, violent stuff. And

323
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Speaker 2: then when I stayed on the street for two weeks,

324
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 2: and when I came back, my brother was at my

325
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,520
Speaker 2: house with my partner and I was like, oh, hello,

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Speaker 2: and I pick up the baby, and you know, it's

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Speaker 2: all normal, normal. I end up finding it these two

328
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 2: events sleeping together. You know, she ends up telling he

329
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 2: ends up telling me. And at the moment, I've just

330
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 2: been kicked off one hundred and twenty meals of meth today,

331
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Speaker 2: I've got a heroin habit, I'm homeless, I've just lost

332
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Speaker 2: my partner. The only three people I love in the

333
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Speaker 2: world is my brother, my fiance, and my little girl.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sitting outside of a church and I don't

335
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,320
Speaker 2: know how I got myself to this point, but I'm

336
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,600
Speaker 2: sitting there listening to the music, and something about Christian

337
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,440
Speaker 2: music has always suve me gary out the way it

338
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 2: just does. And I'm sitting there and the music stops,

339
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,160
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, in my head just talking

340
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Speaker 2: to me, and I'm going, I'm rocking back and forth

341
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,480
Speaker 2: flight this and I'm saying, this is my fucking point.

342
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,720
Speaker 2: What's the fucking point? What is the point of this

343
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 2: fucking world? Everybody's a piece of shit, you know. And

344
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 2: I just kept saying it over and over and over.

345
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 2: And I walk into the church and my intention was

346
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 2: to get a cup of tea that they've got, maybe

347
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 2: this biscuits or something I can drink or eat. And

348
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: I walk inside and there's no one there, and there's

349
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 2: this big cross there with like a sheet with all

350
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 2: like someone's been spraying on something like paint or something

351
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,840
Speaker 2: on it. And I look at it and I actually

352
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 2: get the sheet and I put it around my neck

353
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Speaker 2: and I start praying, you know, like I don't know

354
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,440
Speaker 2: there's a God or not, but if you're there, hear

355
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 2: my story, man, and I start praying to God, and

356
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Speaker 2: then I just step off. And as I go to

357
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,480
Speaker 2: step off, some my man just comes straight through and

358
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 2: grabs me and lifts me up and stop the actual

359
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 2: drop bit of me dropping. And he sat down with me,

360
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Speaker 2: and he was a priest and he started talking to

361
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Speaker 2: me about God. And I'll screaming at him, brother, and

362
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 2: I'm like, don't tell me about fucking God. Bro, you know,

363
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 2: just God. You know I'm angry. You know I'm angry.

364
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 2: And he gives me a poem. It's called Footprints. And

365
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 2: I read that poem and I just fucking broke down

366
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 2: in tears. Mate. It just made me cry. And I thought,

367
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 2: because I believe there's something out there, a God, but

368
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 2: I don't believe in religion or church as you know,

369
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 2: because it just seems to be the catalyst for everything

370
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 2: evil from from what I grew up with you. And

371
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 2: but that was the first time. But what ends up

372
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,120
Speaker 2: happening is it turns into an arm robbery. I go

373
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 2: into stayed the next day, I go to see him

374
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Speaker 2: and he said, I stayed there night. Sorry. And the

375
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 2: next morning he says to me, I said, I got

376
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,920
Speaker 2: to go, Bro. I said, I'm a heroin addict and

377
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 2: I'm fucking in bad withdrawals. I've got to go, you know.

378
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 2: I tell him that.

379
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 1: So this is the dude that save you?

380
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And what happened is he says

381
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,520
Speaker 2: to me, what about I'll give you fifty bucks for

382
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 2: that help. I said absolutely, you know, and like as

383
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 2: an addict, it's like I'm better, I'm not because I know.

384
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,480
Speaker 2: I said, it's subconscient, right, And then I suddenly he

385
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 2: says to me, no, I can't do it. My religion

386
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,200
Speaker 2: faith won't allow me to give you that money or

387
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 2: whatever it is, you know. And so just to clarify

388
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,040
Speaker 2: it back, there was two men there, and it was

389
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,200
Speaker 2: actually another man who stopped me for falling.

390
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:13,720
Speaker 1: It was right.

391
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,439
Speaker 2: It came in and there, yes, built the relationship with

392
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 2: Then what happens is I pick up a button knife

393
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 2: and I put it to my neck and I hold

394
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 2: it to my neck and I said, you don't fucking

395
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 2: get it, bro, I don't want to be here, and

396
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,119
Speaker 2: then I threw it on the ground, right, that's it.

397
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 2: I just threw it on the ground and he said, look, Lynn,

398
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,360
Speaker 2: let me drive you to the cross. And he drove

399
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:33,879
Speaker 2: me to the cross and I had a bag of

400
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,199
Speaker 2: clothing with me. He gave me the fifty dollars and

401
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 2: he said, can I pray for you? And I said, okay,

402
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 2: you know, and then he went to touch me. I said,

403
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,640
Speaker 2: just don't touch me. You can pray for me, Please

404
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,679
Speaker 2: don't touch me. I don't like being touched. So he

405
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,639
Speaker 2: prays for me. He said, how about you leave your

406
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,680
Speaker 2: clothes with me and you can come back the next

407
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 2: day and get them and we'll wash them. I said,

408
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:50,879
Speaker 2: I wash them for you, and you can't come back

409
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,719
Speaker 2: and get them. Two weeks that's passed, and I'm passing

410
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 2: through that area and I knock on the door and

411
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 2: he goes, come in, come in, come in, welcome in.

412
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 2: And so we go in and have a cup of coffee,

413
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, about fifty he goes, can

414
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,400
Speaker 2: I've got to go and do something. I'll come back.

415
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 2: He's gone and ring the police. I didn't know this,

416
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 2: and then two minutes later the police turn up, knock

417
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 2: knock knock, and they arrest me and they charged me

418
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 2: with the mar money with menace. Right then what happens

419
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,280
Speaker 2: is King's Cross Police. So I ended up getting put

420
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 2: into jail for eleven months in MRC. But King's Cross

421
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,919
Speaker 2: Police learn of it and they change the charge and

422
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 2: turn it to armed robbery.

423
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 1: So robbery, So breaking that down to mean money with

424
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 1: menace was the first one. Yeah, so that's okay. The robbery.

425
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 1: It takes it to another level a completely the weapon

426
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,680
Speaker 1: that you're threatening someone to rob them.

427
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And so I ended up getting Supreme

428
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 2: Court bail to Odyssey House, but I didn't make it.

429
00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 2: So what happens is pretty funny. My girl, the one

430
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 2: that sat with my brother, she's at the court and

431
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 2: as we're leaving, I said, i'll see you in ten

432
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 2: minutes at the station. She's, what are you talking about?

433
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 2: They're escorting you out to Odissey House. I said, I'll

434
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 2: see you at the station in ten minutes. We getting

435
00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 2: the bars, all of these guys that have been Supreme

436
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 2: Court bail outdid us the house. And I'm sitting here

437
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,720
Speaker 2: a window and I'm skinny, little and attic, and it's

438
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 2: about that much space, you know, to get out this window.

439
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,480
Speaker 2: And I look at into the guy and it starts

440
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 2: like I'm oh, I know this, stay over there, and

441
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 2: I'm pointing all this stuff they've sort of engraced in

442
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 2: whatever it was I pointed to, and then Bush I

443
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 2: ship out the window, gone, I'm at the station. And

444
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,239
Speaker 2: the sad part to this story is so I went

445
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 2: up to her and I said, you got any money?

446
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 2: She goes, yeah, should I'll give you fifty bucks or

447
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,160
Speaker 2: you can come with me and my daughter, I said.

448
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 2: I looked at her and I thought, you betrayed me, mate,

449
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 2: TU give me the fifty And I still kind of well,

450
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,239
Speaker 2: I don't now because I've had a beautiful After that,

451
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 2: I mooved on it, but for that point in time,

452
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 2: I felt sad. But I end up escaping and staying

453
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,640
Speaker 2: on the streets for ages, you know, using and stuff

454
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 2: until I eventually get caught. So the police used to

455
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 2: see me, right. I remember walking down the main street

456
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: of the Cross and they're walking up eating an ice

457
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: cream and they look up and they see me and

458
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 2: I run towards them and I run down through this

459
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 2: arcade and down Chapman Steps in the Cross and they're

460
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,480
Speaker 2: chasing after me, and I'm fast and they get to

461
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,200
Speaker 2: the top of the sets and I'm like, come on,

462
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 2: come on. And I'm playing this game with them for

463
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 2: about a week. Every time they see me, they're chasing me.

464
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,719
Speaker 2: They can't get an injury. I'm trying to help out.

465
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 2: And then what happened is one day I score and

466
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 2: I gave to this place. And so the day before

467
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 2: I'm having a shot on a staircase and all of

468
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 2: a sudden, someone must have come up from behind and

469
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 2: hit me with a bottle. Because I'm laid out on

470
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,439
Speaker 2: the ground with blood coming out of my head. I

471
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 2: think someone didn't like me using in the air, so

472
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 2: it's come up from behind and on whack with a

473
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 2: big goourney bottle. The next day, I go back to

474
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 2: the same spot, but a different little part of it,

475
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 2: right where no one can see me, and I'm shooting

476
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:30,640
Speaker 2: up but you can't get out of where I'm at.

477
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: Suddenly those three detectives walk in and they're like, god A, Glenn,

478
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 2: the fuck okay, you got me. I still my arm

479
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 2: as they're doing it. I pushed it in. I thought,

480
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 2: I'm not at least I'm going to have my whack

481
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 2: before I go. You know what, actually I say they

482
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 2: saved my life. They wouldn't like the irony of that,

483
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: But putting me in jail they was not their intent

484
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: at all. They wanted to get me, silenced me, to

485
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 2: get me off the street, but me going to jail.

486
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: It's sad to say this, but I actually enjoyed being

487
00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 2: in jail.

488
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 1: I've read and about that's your your view on it,

489
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: talk us through it.

490
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: For the seven years prior to that, I'd slept in

491
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: bloody parks, in the pouring rain. I'd slept in back alleys.

492
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 2: I've been using every day. I was always looking over

493
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: my shoulder for somebody I've robbed, ripped off all the police.

494
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 2: You know, I was just tired. By the time I

495
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,879
Speaker 2: got to jail. I had three meals a day, I

496
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 2: had a roof over my head. I had one hundred mates.

497
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 2: Because I wasn't that tough guy in jail, I just

498
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 2: got on with everyone. I was the friendly guy. Everyone

499
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:28,120
Speaker 2: just got a case.

500
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 1: So you were staking your piece of ground in prison.

501
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, I didn't. That wasn't my role.

502
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: People didn't see you as a threat threat.

503
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 2: No, you know, everyone called me stretch. I was playing

504
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 2: football one day and someone says, are you long, fellow,

505
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 2: big fella, Stretch, give me the ball. And then from

506
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 2: that day everyone called me stretch and it's a stretch,

507
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 2: and it was like but they always said, he comes

508
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 2: fucking stretch again with the bluey. I was always I

509
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: used to run all the competitions in jail, touched football,

510
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 2: whatever it was, you know. So that's how that knew me.

511
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: I got my school certificate in jail. So one of

512
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: the things that I did was I thought, right, this

513
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 2: is my chance to learn to read and write. So

514
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 2: I bought all these books. The only books I could

515
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: get was I got the Bible, a book called seventy

516
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: Times seven, and The Cross and the Switchblade. So they're

517
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 2: the three books that I read to try and get

518
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 2: more articulate and to learn words. Then I started to

519
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 2: do my CGE General Certificate of Education, which is Equivalency

520
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 2: DISCOL Certificate, which I did, and I got all these

521
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 2: other things, did computer courses front end later first aid

522
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 2: I spent my whole time in prison learning.

523
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: That's when the system works, isn't it. I suppose you're

524
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: unique in that your start to life was so shit

525
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 1: prison looks better option luxury. How long's this been going on?

526
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: That's but yeah, that is the system working. It doesn't

527
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: work for everyone but someone that's in there. And credit

528
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: to you, Credit to the system for allowing you to

529
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 1: do it. But you've taken that opportunity.

530
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 2: But it also taught me anger and hate. It also

531
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: taught me that respect equals violence, that if someone's disrespectful

532
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: to me, that that's met with violence. So it there's

533
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: good and the bad. And I saw a lot of

534
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 2: people come in to jail that stories not like mine.

535
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: You know, they come in and they do these ones

536
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: and they try and bounce around like a tough guy,

537
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: and that gets sorted really fast.

538
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, how long did you do? So?

539
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: I did eleven months on raman and then two years

540
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 2: eight months was my sentence. So I did two years

541
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: eight months.

542
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: And that's when you literally like, we haven't even talked

543
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: about your education, but you had enough going on in

544
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: your life early schooling. Did you do much schooling or no?

545
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: So I did the only years I can remember. I

546
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 2: was bounced around so much that only years four, five,

547
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 2: and six and seven I did. I did half a

548
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: year seven in a high school in Erina, and then

549
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 2: I got put into Derek. Halfway through that, I started

550
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: year eight and then I ran away. About three weeks

551
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: into it, somebody punched my brother and I attacked him

552
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: in the principal's office. I literally attacked him in the

553
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: principal's office. And so I ran away that time as well,

554
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: and I was institutionalized again. But yeah, I didn't do

555
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: much schooling at all, and even when I was there,

556
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: I was so messed up with my trauma and the

557
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: kids bullying and like they I've actually joined one of

558
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: the pages to the scrool I went to, and I've

559
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: had so many people reach out to me and said,

560
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: I Glenned, we'd had it only know and you know,

561
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: like it hurts me saying it because it felt such

562
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 2: a nice, needed moment. And I said to them, look,

563
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: you could never have known what was going on in

564
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: my life. You just couldn't, you know. But they knew

565
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: I lived in the oldest house that I always smelt, like,

566
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: you're right, So I had I wet the bed really bad.

567
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: We didn't have hot water as a kid. We had

568
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 2: an urn, and we didn't have a public toilet, proper toilet.

569
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: We had one that was empty back then, and so

570
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: everyone sort of knew me as the stinky, poor kid,

571
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: you know, and it is cruel, but kids don't know,

572
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: you know.

573
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: And I can see why you get the emotional where

574
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: the kids probably gave you a hard time at school

575
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: of reaching out and apologizing.

576
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: There, Yeah, and I respect that, you know, like you know,

577
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: someone says, you know that I should have done better,

578
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: and I wished I did. And there was a couple

579
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 2: that I that kind of knew what. They didn't know

580
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: the extual side of it, but they knew that I

581
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: was being subjected to extreme violence, you know, like it

582
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 2: was visible. I had one story I as a kid,

583
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 2: is I had to get up to go to school

584
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: one day and I'm sitting at the bus stop my

585
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: eyes like black, like really bad. And I get on

586
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: the bus and the bus driver said, what happened to you?

587
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: I said, I hit my head on the side of

588
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: the corner of the door. He said, you do that

589
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: a lot. Anyway, he drives about one hundred meters and

590
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 2: stops at the front of my dad's house and then

591
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: he walks up to the front door and I couldn't

592
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 2: hear it. And this is a guy's about seventy years

593
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: old and Clary right mag Man Bank, and you could

594
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: see him, he's so animated. And I'm sitting in the

595
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: bus like, what's going on? You know, because my dad

596
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: teaches karate like he's a mushler, you know, he's a

597
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: violent man. And but yeah, he gets back in the

598
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: bus and he goes heter not be doing that again.

599
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: I'll be knocking on the door every day and he's

600
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 2: talking all the way to Still it is the only

601
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: time in my life anyone stood up for me as

602
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 2: a kid. And yeah, and then I ran away. I

603
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: didn't come home.

604
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: But he stood up for you.

605
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: Now.

606
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: But I can see the smile on your face coming

607
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: when you talking about that, because you wouldn't have had

608
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: anyone fighting you.

609
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: No, that's right. And that's the thing that I think

610
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: that really strikes me with my stories. I didn't know

611
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: where to turn, and the system that was supposed to

612
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: protect me failed me and repeatedly failed me. And it's

613
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: it's the systemic failures. My story are so many.

614
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: Just you know, when you talk about the docs file

615
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: and all that, and twenty two times you've been taken

616
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: from your home by the time you're seven, or something

617
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: very ridiculous. Hello, there's a pattern for me there. I

618
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: don't know the breakdown of the system.

619
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: And you had that with my medical records of the

620
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: amount of times that I present to Mount Drew at hospital,

621
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: nor sit in the hospital all these different hospitals. You know,

622
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: I got stitches in my ankles, stitched in my fingers,

623
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: I've got scars all over me made.

624
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: When you were taken to the hospital with your carpet

625
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: burns and your fingers, your fingers cut off, and the

626
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: mum's obviously irrational screaming at screaming at the doctor. That

627
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: would have been the moments that could have Yeah, if

628
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: someone stepped in, that's when the difference could have been mate.

629
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are so many moments that I look back

630
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: when I read through my files where I think that

631
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 2: so many people could have done something and nobody did nothing.

632
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: And that angers me more than the people who hurt me,

633
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: because I'll never be that guy, Gary, even if it

634
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: hurts or cost me my life. If as someone hurting

635
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: a child, bro, I can tell you right now I'm

636
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: stepping in and I feel every person should you know, I.

637
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: Think you're right. Yeah, if we can't protect it's a

638
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: mark of society if we can't protect the vulnerable, and

639
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: the most vulnerable are kids. That's right, absolutely, Okay, so prison,

640
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: you've got an education, or if you've learned to read,

641
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: you start to appreciate the finer things. You got some skills, Yep,

642
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: when you left prison, did you have a game plan

643
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: of where your life was going to.

644
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 2: So when I got out, they wanted me to get

645
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: a job and a place to live. I don't even

646
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: have a family mate. Am I going to do that?

647
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: So I met some Christians and they gave me a

648
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: job as a carpenter ap preentice carpentry, and I live

649
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 2: with them. But when I got out, the woman tried

650
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: to come on to me. She was like seventy two

651
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: year old. She walked up behind me one day and

652
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: I just come out of the gym. She's got a

653
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: hands all avery. I'm like, fuck this man, I'm out

654
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: of you.

655
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: You know. Christian lady, Christian Lady's Christian.

656
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 2: It was very un Christian. Yeah, But the problem was

657
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: that my addiction, Gary was doing push ups for me

658
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: waiting outside, although I never used the entire time I

659
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: was in prison.

660
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: And that prove me again explain that one I like

661
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: the same just explained.

662
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: Well, what I mean is that I hadn't been treated.

663
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 2: And that's the part of our system that does fail

664
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 2: us that we put people into a time warp and

665
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: know they're still a heroin atic. You know, I'm a

666
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: long believer that we should move away from punitive and

667
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: move towards rehabilitation when it comes to drug related offenses. Now,

668
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: when it comes to offense against children women, you know,

669
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: they said, I think that's a different story, bro. But

670
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: when we're talking about people who recidi is keep going

671
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: back and back again because of drug addiction. They come in,

672
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: they clean, they get themselves all good, then they walk

673
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: out the door, bang they use again, and many of

674
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: them drop or die or homeless.

675
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: Well, you talk like, when you release from prison, want

676
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 1: to get you a job, want you to do this,

677
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: find the home and all that. You don't get much

678
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: when you released from prison. You haven't got the CV

679
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: that's going to get you get your job. So there

680
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: is I think a fair enough thing a responsibility or

681
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: it just makes sense that when you're released from prison,

682
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: there's a pathway.

683
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: That you can absolutely I think one of the things

684
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: that I talk about often is I would like to

685
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: see levels. So when you go into prison, I could

686
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: say to you, listen, mate, you can do your four

687
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: years jail in jail, or you can do four levels.

688
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: Level one is we do anger management, narcotics, anonymous, we

689
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: learn educations and we work our way through all these

690
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: things so by the time someone comes out they're better

691
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: equipped to live a life. I mean someone like me,

692
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: that would have been ideal if somebody had taught me

693
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: about my addiction, someone taught me a little bit about

694
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: my trauma and my anger management, those kind of things,

695
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: given me an education, and then at the end you

696
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: do a bit of job release and get you an

697
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: actual place and set you up. You know, I think

698
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: that would have been a lot better than me trying

699
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: to defend for myself. And that's what it basically is.

700
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: Well, the high rate of recidivism, not just in New

701
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: South Wales but across the country I speak, speaks of

702
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: the fact that we haven't quite got it right. But yeah,

703
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: giving something to work towards. And I know when I

704
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: was doing the series Breaking Badness, there was a lot

705
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: of people I saw in jail that were on lengthy

706
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: sentences and you could see if I had the authority,

707
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: and I'm not a bleeding heart or softy, I would

708
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: sign the paperwork to let them out. They had clearly

709
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: learned their lessons and they wanted to get back out

710
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: and contribute to society. But we're going to keep them

711
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: in there for another extended period of time, and who

712
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: knows what they're going to be when they get out.

713
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: I think what the viewer needs to understand, or Australia

714
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: needs to understand, is that there's a difference between a

715
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: sick person who needs to be weighing well as opposed

716
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: to a bad person who needs to be made good.

717
00:30:58,720 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

718
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: And I think when comes to a sick person needing

719
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: to be made well and heroin addict in addiction, if

720
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: we look at those sort of programs away from punitive

721
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: and move towards rehabilitation, I think that could work. Whereas

722
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: with the bad people, I think, like there's some grubs broking,

723
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: you know, they need to be in prison.

724
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: I think and put in perspective like in prison and

725
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: talk in prison, a large percentage of the prisoners that

726
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: prick should never be released. Yeah, absolutely, like they know

727
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: bad people, but scaring jail. It's the smaller percentage of

728
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: the people that are in prison are the ones that

729
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: can't turn around to their life around. Ken Marslow said,

730
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: I've said a lot on the podcast, but I think

731
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: it's a good way of looking at it. You've probably

732
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: got thirty percent that have made the decision they're going

733
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: to be criminals. They're going to they're going to try

734
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: and score a dollar, and the price they pay, they're

735
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,719
Speaker 1: going to get the cents that might be twenty thirty percent.

736
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: Then you've got the sixty percent probably sitting there that

737
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: have made a mistake. They're not bad people. It might

738
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: have been circumstances like like yourself, and they found themselves

739
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: in prisons. They're the ones that you can change. And

740
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: then the ten or fifteen percent, the real bad bastards, well,

741
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: we can't can't help them.

742
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: And the way the system set up now is that

743
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: those fifty percent that are good to survive end up

744
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: doing some of the messenis things in prison, you know,

745
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: And I've seen that happen. I've seen good men come

746
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: to prison and join into groups and the next minute

747
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: they're shaving people or doing all sorts of stuff just

748
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: to survive, you know.

749
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: And that's that's the thing, isn't it survival?

750
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. It changes men. I know the first

751
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: time I got out of prison, you might have read

752
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 2: it my book. I got into a punch on because

753
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: I've been taught respect equals violence. Someone wouldn't shake my hand,

754
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: and the next minute I'm punching like I literally he's

755
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: behind the door and I'm kicking the door in. And

756
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: the barman come over and said, mate, you got a choice.

757
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: You can get attacks and go home. I can bring

758
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 2: the police and you go back to Jaga. And I

759
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: took the option to go home.

760
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people say that when they

761
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: get out of the prison because they're so used to

762
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: walking around, bridged up, ready to go at the moments

763
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: know this, and then the gates to the prison are open,

764
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: and then walking down the street and someone disrespects you,

765
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, accidentally bumping in or not shaking your hand,

766
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: and you're so conditioned that you've got to react, and

767
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: it's on again.

768
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: I made a video just recently about justice for that gas.

769
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: Right when I was telling you about we're walking together

770
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 2: and we bump into each other and we're bad. You

771
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: won't have a crack. You know, we do this full

772
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: long thing and then we go literally little, and we

773
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: go backwards, and then we do it again and I'm

774
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: so sorry, bro, and he so sorry. One of the

775
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: things I teach a lot of people to do now

776
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: is when I call it monkey mantello. Two men walk

777
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: down the street and they I bought each other and

778
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: they just keep doing it. So someone said what what?

779
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: And it starts when somebod's that to me, I smile

780
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: and I go hi, mate, And ninety nine percent of

781
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: the time they smile straight back because what I've done

782
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: is I said you're safe. I'm safe, nothing to fear here, bro,

783
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: and then we carry on.

784
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: Well, you can the few It's interesting, you can the

785
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: few situations I speak to young fellas and they go, well,

786
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes you've got to punch on some times

787
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: you've got to do this. And I use the example

788
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: of bumping into each other at the bar. If someone's

789
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: and we've all been there, someone's taken a dislike, had

790
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: too much to drink or whatever and looking at you

791
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: and they've got the shits with you, yeah, for whatever

792
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: the reason is. And they might look at you and

793
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: whether you're looking at mate, and I give people this too.

794
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: If you said that to me, I'd go, sorry, mate,

795
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: I'm just having a bad day, and you can walk

796
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: away from it. You can diffuse it absoutely. We know

797
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: we can, but it's that that instinct we have. Fuck this,

798
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to escalate it and take it up. But

799
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: you can walk away from the situations, can't you.

800
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I look, I work on the streets, and I've

801
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: had people scream in your face and yell at me

802
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: and all sorts of stuff. And now I'm able to

803
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: one of the things I can do. Now, I'm better discernment.

804
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,479
Speaker 2: Great word. I sort of look at them and I think,

805
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 2: what actually is going on for you? I can see

806
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: them fasad, but what's actually going on underneath? And more

807
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 2: often than not, at something trauma, it's a defense mechanism

808
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: because they're actually afraid. And so I just sort of

809
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: stepped back and I'm just continually being kind. And I've

810
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: had there's been times, Gary, I've had somebody in my face.

811
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: I'm like and then I've had to walk away and

812
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: come back and say hey, and like come from another and.

813
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you can control how many times have

814
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: you looked back and gone and it might get physical.

815
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: It might get physical, but you look back and I

816
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: could have handled it a little bit differently.

817
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that.

818
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: And so if you can stop and think before you react, react, Yeah, respond,

819
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: don't react. But that's the thing when the prisons are

820
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: set up that you have got to be ready to

821
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: go at the moment. It's not some respects everything. And

822
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: I can understand why bloke's coming out of there are

823
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: just and it's it's not just about the bloat that's

824
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: fucked up again and ends up back in prison. There's

825
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: more victims in someone's someone's been hurt.

826
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: I would say that people don't stand tall to stand up,

827
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: which means you don't walk around on this. But if

828
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: someone puts it on you, you go straight back. And

829
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: it's not about winning or losing. It's about face, you know,

830
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: That's all it's about. In respect. I'm you know back then,

831
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: I loved being in it. When it was time to

832
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: get out, I was afraid to get out, but I

833
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: couldn't live that world.

834
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: Now talk us through that, because that's interesting.

835
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: Well, so for the last three months, you know, they

836
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: come up, you know, your times wearing out. I'm now

837
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 2: at a farm in oberon I've got a job. I'm

838
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 2: working in education. Everyone's be made. I played football, chess

839
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: every day. I got my own slot.

840
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: You know.

841
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: It's like I'm in my own room, you know, And

842
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: but then suddenly I'm getting out. I remember feeling like

843
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 2: for three months I ran a marathon, and to read

844
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: that in the book, I came first iron and actually

845
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: ran a marathon like I was. I just loved being

846
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: in there. But when I got out, it was time

847
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: to getting closer and closer to get out. I was

848
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: getting this really bad anxiety. I was like, I don't

849
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: know what I'm going to do where you know, how

850
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: am I going to do this? Like I've never my

851
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: everything in my life's been violent and you know all

852
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: this stuff. I don't know how to survive in the world.

853
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 2: I've never really maintained work or any of those things.

854
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: I don't know what that looks like. And and because

855
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: of that, I didn't take long for me to find

856
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: myself back into that scene.

857
00:36:58,880 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: You know.

858
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 2: It was only because in nineteen ninety six I met

859
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 2: someone and we'd had a little boy that the Woodraw

860
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: Commission knocked on my door, and you know what they did,

861
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 2: Like I know, they didn't mean it, but they still

862
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: did it. I was sitting in my loungery with my

863
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: partner at the time and bangman bang on the door,

864
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: Kings Cross Police, like straight away, my heart stopped right

865
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: because it's King Tross. Straight away I opened up. There's

866
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: two women and a man. They are dressed in black

867
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: and all in black clothing. Hi aware from the Woodraw Commission,

868
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: You've been identified by multiple people as a victim of

869
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 2: sex crimes in your time in the Cross in front

870
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: of my partner, right in front of my partner. A

871
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: little bit, it could have had a lot differently, And

872
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: because I'd never told that part of my story to

873
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: my partner, and so that was the first thing. I

874
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: wasn't quite ready when they came forward, but I did.

875
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: I put two men away through that case.

876
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: I suppose you wouldn't have been trusting too.

877
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: I didn't make King Tross Police. That in itself was

878
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: an alarm bell for me, you know. And what's this

879
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 2: Woodraw Commission you speak of, you know? And I tell

880
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 2: them and stuff, and I gave some stuff half away,

881
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: but not really all the everything. It wasn't until the

882
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: next Rayal Commission into institutional abuse, where they took my

883
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: full story.

884
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: You put two people away.

885
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: Yes, So in the Woodraw Commission, I put away a

886
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: guy named Paul Chapman Jones, he was a counselor at

887
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: the refuge, and a guy named Ken Foggery. He was

888
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: the head of O'Brien Glass or I worked for O'Brien glass, sorry,

889
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 2: and used to sit outside the park all the day.

890
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: He's the one that raped me that time. I was

891
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: telling you about that one that was quite violent.

892
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: And was that just by providing a statement or did

893
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: you do well?

894
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 2: So a lot of other people had come forward as

895
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: well in those particular two, including someone close to me,

896
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 2: and so I spoke up as well, and I went

897
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: to court against the both gave evidence that in the

898
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: first case against Paul Chapman Jones. When we were at court,

899
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: they broke for lunch and I was sitting out in

900
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: my lunch and I looked up at the table and

901
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: he's come up, like literally approached me in the inter

902
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 2: room and he's gone, Glenn. He said, look, I'm really

903
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: sorry for what I did to you when you were

904
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: a little boy, and he mentioned another victim. And he

905
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: went back to court and played guilty, but he was

906
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 2: charged by multiple charges. He got eighteen months, right, eighteen

907
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: months sentence. Then the other one he pled not guilty

908
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: and fought it all the way through, got found guilty.

909
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: He also got eighteen months. And I was like, at

910
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: the end of that, mate, I'd just gone through all this,

911
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: going around, the drive, around the hearings, you know, the

912
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: whole thing. Because the problem with my cases was I

913
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: was subjected to the time governing abuse, which meant that

914
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: I was subjected to the laws of when my abuse occurred,

915
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: which meant I had to be at every hearing every man,

916
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: you know, everything, had to be at every fucking thing.

917
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: And it was hard.

918
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: Man. How did you find that? And were you're still

919
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: using heroin?

920
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: So I'd been clean and then what happened was because

921
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: I was living in Leftgo, I had to catch the

922
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: train every day to the Downy Center and I was

923
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: making a detour ry the cross getting on and then

924
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 2: I was sitting in court like this every day, like Onniqord,

925
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: you know, just smash because I couldn't process it.

926
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: Man.

927
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: It was the way that the solicitors for them would

928
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 2: treat me. You know that. It's like it's changed now,

929
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: but back then they could say just about anything they

930
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: wanted to, you know, and like trying to make it

931
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: all my fault.

932
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: Just how long you've been using heroin for you just yea,

933
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: yeah you went.

934
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: To arm robbery, didn't you? And you know, and like

935
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: are you gay?

936
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: You know?

937
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: You know, you know, did you get an erection? You

938
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: know I would have you got an erection? You must

939
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 2: have enjoyed it, you know, like the things that they.

940
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: Say, is that how they literally what.

941
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: They said to me? You know, did you get it aroused?

942
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 2: You know, did you get an erection? Did you did

943
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: you like it? You know? You went to Paul twice?

944
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: So therefore you know, like and it's it's just fat.

945
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: So they can put that spin on it, and yeah,

946
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: balance out with the fact that you're a kid at

947
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: the time and being taken. Yeah.

948
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: I don't want to give credit to a pedophile, but

949
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 2: I will say that Paul Jones noticed what was happening

950
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: in the court and I could see he was distressed

951
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: by my distress, strangely enough, and he did, like I said,

952
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: come up and apologize to me. And he's the only

953
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 2: one that has and I do believe there was a

954
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 2: genuine remorse and that man, but he still did what

955
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: he did, right, you know, so that yeah, he apologized

956
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: and that meant something to me. But the other one

957
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: was quite coarse. And I've actually had people reach out

958
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 2: to me at different stages about him like that are

959
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: friends of his, you know, Like same with Simon. He

960
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: works in the privacy sector. I had all these people

961
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: saying you cannot speak online and talk about him until

962
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: he's been convicted that because you know, but then I

963
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: also someone else that reached in the privacy sector, and

964
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 2: so He'm glad. I just want you to know that

965
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: we're not all work in that area like that, you know.

966
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 2: And I said, but the three guys that would really

967
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: give me a hard time on Twitter messaging me the

968
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: minute he got convicted, block block block orfully the block

969
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: block block, because I was so ready to go, well

970
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 2: what now?

971
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: What what now? Yeah, Hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here.

972
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: Want they get more out of VI Catch Killers, then

973
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: you should head over to our new video feed on

974
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: Spotify where you can watch every episode of VI Catch Killers.

975
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: Just search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify

976
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 1: app and start watching today. How does it feel face

977
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: him down in court?

978
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, with Simon was the biggest one.

979
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about that, because that was a long,

980
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: longer process process.

981
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen they put out a red notice for

982
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 2: Simon Davis. But I named him in the Woodrow Commission

983
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 2: in ninety six I named him in my statement in

984
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: twenty twelve and in the wood Rock in the Royal

985
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 2: Commission instit institutional abuse. They allowed him to leave the

986
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: country even though multiple people had spoken about him as

987
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 2: the primary abuser. And he ends up going to London

988
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 2: and then he gets catches win that this warrants come

989
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,959
Speaker 2: out right, so he flees to the Netherlands. So he's

990
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 2: learned that if you go to certain places in Europe

991
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,439
Speaker 2: that they have statute of limitations and that you can

992
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: use the statute of limitation laws to negate crimes in

993
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: this country, which is frick and insane.

994
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: It should be you would think it would relate to

995
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: the country where the offense committed.

996
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So what happens is there's four people who have

997
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: made charges against Simon Davies and eighteen charges against him.

998
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: Time he leaves the Netherlands, two of those victims have

999
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: no longer got charges against him. I had thirteen against

1000
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: him turned into three, but I'll never forget the police.

1001
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: This is where for me, police change right, the sex

1002
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: clamed squad from Paramatta, Nick Sprows. I'll say his name,

1003
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: Beca is a beautiful man. He used to ring me

1004
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: every day. Hey, I played rugby league super coach. That

1005
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 2: is fantasy sport. I run podcasts for it, right, He

1006
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 2: bring about and goes, oh, Glenn, I'm doing my football side.

1007
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: You know who do you reckon? I should pick? And

1008
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: we just talked for an hour about footy or BBL. Right,

1009
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 2: But what he was doing was building a rapport. He

1010
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: was building a trust and he said to me one day,

1011
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: this says Glenn, I promise you. I know it's taking

1012
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: nearly a decade, he says, but I will fucking get him.

1013
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 2: And then of course COVID come in that made it

1014
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: even more difficult. And I'll never forget. The haard Man

1015
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 2: has kind of upset me again. He ran me from

1016
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: the airport from the Netherlands and he goes, hey, Glenn,

1017
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 2: how are you doing? I said good? Maybe he goes

1018
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: this and I just want to warn you that all

1019
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: over the news tonight, Simon Davey's been arrested. We got him,

1020
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: you know, And I just remember Garry, I said on

1021
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 2: the lounge with so bad depression. After all them court cases,

1022
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: I didn't move, I wasn't showering, I wasn't eating. I

1023
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 2: just sat there. I didn't know how to survive. I

1024
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 2: was literally on methadone, but I wasn't using drugs. I

1025
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: didn't know where to fit in. And I just kept thinking,

1026
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: they're never going to get him, They're never going to

1027
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 2: get him. And finally the time that he rang me

1028
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 2: up and he said, Glenn, I've got him, I felt

1029
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: like I was able to breathe again. But then when

1030
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: I went to court, the coward wouldn't come to court.

1031
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: He wanted to do it on the screen and he

1032
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: would not look across. But he caught up at the

1033
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: end and he made this big letter trying to you know,

1034
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry I'll let you down as a leader.

1035
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: And Jim and de clant to come up to me

1036
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: and she said, Glenn, I come up with exact words,

1037
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: but it's like you're one of the most bravest people

1038
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: I've ever seen speak, you know. She said, you are

1039
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: so articulate, and she said you are so better than

1040
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: that man. And I really appreciate those words at that

1041
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: minute from Dimni and deb Night. They're just some really

1042
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: lovely people out there.

1043
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think people do understand. And I know

1044
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: both the people you just mentioned, and they understand what

1045
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: you've been through. Yeah, yeah, we read that, we hear

1046
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: about it in the paper. But unless you sit down

1047
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: and actually speak to someone that have a full appreciation

1048
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: of what they've been through, it's just sort of gets

1049
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: lost in the news headlines, doesn't it.

1050
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: You know, when I told my story to the police,

1051
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: I remember them, the two police I'm talking about, they

1052
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: got their arms folded like this and they're listening to

1053
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: my crum sitting there, but they're sort of listening, and

1054
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 2: you could see that they were like, this is a

1055
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: good story, bro, and it's a lot you know, it

1056
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 2: doesn't make it and I'm trying to cut your fingers off, okay,

1057
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: and yeah, and this happened and that okay, you could

1058
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: see it. Yeah, they went away six weeks. They were gone, right,

1059
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: and I thought, well that's that. Then then they turned

1060
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: back and it was almost like they're excited. Those mean,

1061
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: we've been all around the country. We've spoken to so

1062
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: many kids from the cross and every single one Parrot

1063
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: of what you said. So what we want you to

1064
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: do is wear a wire. And I was like, are

1065
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: you're fucking kidding me? I'm not wearing a wire. But

1066
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 2: I did, and I'm glad I did because I got him.

1067
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: You know, that's the other one, Grant Morrow, So I

1068
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 2: ended up getting him as well.

1069
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: You went and wore a war and met.

1070
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: With Yeah, it's crazy. So they asked me.

1071
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: First, how do you feel. That's a lot of pressure.

1072
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 2: I was scared, and I know scared the right word.

1073
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: It was like everything that had been taught to me

1074
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 2: that growing up was that still that crim side of me.

1075
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: It's on half laughing and you got to you've got

1076
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: to see some light and samrries. But I just know

1077
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 1: that I krim were a wire.

1078
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a snitch, you know. And then that's when

1079
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 2: the police said to me, like, it's a different rule

1080
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: and so online as well. It's a different rule when

1081
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 2: it comes to those who abuse children, Glenn, And that's

1082
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: when I had that conversation with him about, you know,

1083
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: saying that everyone there after abuses. And now the funny

1084
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: thing was I put this wire on right, And then

1085
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: he had to drop his car off somewhere so they

1086
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: knew he was going to walk a path, right, But

1087
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 2: as I came out to where I'm coming up this way,

1088
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to walk down that way, there's all roadwork

1089
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: in the three and so I think, fuck, I've got

1090
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: to rush past the roadwork so that they confined. So

1091
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: I did, I thought it. So I got past all

1092
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: the road works so that I met him at the

1093
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: corner and I walked past, and I sort of tapped hi,

1094
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: my dad as I kept walking past, and went Glenn,

1095
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: is that little Glenn? And I'm like, oh, hi, Graham,

1096
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 2: how trying to be nice and stuff. And they gave

1097
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: me a phone as well, So for a specific phone,

1098
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 2: I gave him the phone numb. He didn't contact me

1099
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: for two weeks. Then one night he rang me up

1100
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 2: drunk and just bang, he just blurted and blurted. As

1101
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 2: soon as they hung out, I got a call straight

1102
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: from the police. And this was late at night. Glenn.

1103
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 2: We got him and they say, can you organize a rendezvous?

1104
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: So what they did was they organized it so that

1105
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: I introduced him to a pedophile he thought was a pedophile.

1106
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: And this pedophile had a boy that was with his parents,

1107
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: and we needed to get him back from his parents'

1108
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: own So when I introduced Grant to this pedophile, he

1109
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: walks in. First, he slides a photo across the right,

1110
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 2: and I opened, there's two naked boys on the stomach

1111
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 2: at the refuge, right, And soon as I grab that,

1112
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 2: I slid it to the detective. Then I realized what

1113
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: I was doing, and I slid it straight back and

1114
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 2: just folded up and sat there. And that's when he

1115
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 2: said that thing. He said, He didn't It's like I

1116
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: wasn't even there. He is so engrossed with this guy.

1117
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: He thought it was a pedophile. They're just interactive and

1118
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: he's gone, yeah, and we targeted pretty pubis and kids

1119
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 2: that come from broken homes, and this is how we

1120
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: went about it. And he's given the game man and

1121
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 2: I was sitting there thinking, and the police said to

1122
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 2: me later on, I walked out, I need a cigarette.

1123
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: I needed to because I was angry at that stagment.

1124
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: I can imagine.

1125
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: But they rang me straight away. You're okay, you know.

1126
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: They were like, like I said, I saw a different face.

1127
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 2: And he said to me, going, I don't see myself

1128
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: as like a copper, he said, I see myself as

1129
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: an investigator investigating child crime. But can I just say this,

1130
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: what a fucking kind of a job, so to swear,

1131
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 2: but imagine being in that position, having to watch videos

1132
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: or hear the replays of those stories over and over,

1133
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 2: then go home to your children. How do you do that?

1134
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: Look, it's a very hard area of criminal investigation and sadly,

1135
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: and I think we're recognizing it more now, but they're

1136
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: always under resourced. Yeah, relatively, Junius. Sometimes you've got some

1137
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: of the more experienced ones that can stay on, but

1138
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 1: quite often inexperienced police officers and doing that. And yeah,

1139
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: people say, give q thos to investigating homicides unless you're

1140
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 1: after a serial killer or gangland. Yeah, the crimes happen,

1141
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: you're trying to find the person that it's done it,

1142
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: which there's pressure there. But with child sex abuse, you know,

1143
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: if you don't catch this preck other kids are going

1144
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: to be there's a lot of responsibility. And I think, yeah,

1145
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 1: it's great that you're talking talking some up because I

1146
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: would imagine your your starting point is you don't like

1147
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: cops from what you've experienced in the in the early years,

1148
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: So for you to talk talk it up, and I

1149
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: get the sense you see the cops that you're talking about,

1150
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: the good ones, they actually cared. And what the difference

1151
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:32,919
Speaker 1: that makes too, It doesn't.

1152
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: I think one thing that I've learned, you know, there's

1153
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: good people and there's bad people. And that's in every

1154
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: sector of wherever anything flows, you know, whether it be

1155
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 2: in the tax department or we're in the police department,

1156
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 2: or in crime world. You know, I mean even the

1157
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: crim world. There's good people and there's people that are

1158
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: just really bad, inherently bad people. You know, there's a difference.

1159
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 2: And I have seen a different face to policing, you know.

1160
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: And I appreciate the way that they were so gentle

1161
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: through it because I was really struggling, and I really was,

1162
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: and and I almost suicided again, Like I guess I

1163
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: should tell you that, So I twice. So the first

1164
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: time was I took a heber. I went to a

1165
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: heroin dealer and I said how much you got? He said,

1166
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: I've got found of bucksworth. I said, I want the lot.

1167
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 2: I said, I'm out of you. I literally told him

1168
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill myself. And I walked up to

1169
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: this church and I took the whole lot, stood nothing

1170
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: walked down the main street, lit go, walked into a path,

1171
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 2: got a glass of water, went banged and hit the deck.

1172
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 2: So luckily I was in the safe place to be here.

1173
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: But that says something about the dealer too, doesn't You're

1174
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: telling him I'm out of here. Well that's that's not good, mate.

1175
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: You probably shouldn't do that. But here.

1176
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: I won't say his name, but the irony is he

1177
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 2: actually overdosed about it a year later himself, which is sad,

1178
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 2: but you know, I guess he saw it from that's

1179
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 2: money to his own habit.

1180
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: So that's the way. Look, he's dealing with his own

1181
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: own demons.

1182
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: And then there was a third time, and the last

1183
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: one is a pretty I went to rehab. Before I

1184
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 2: went to rehab, what happened was, I'd been speeding on

1185
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 2: the gas for about a week and I'm fucking in

1186
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 2: another world and I just sat there again. I got

1187
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: that thought process, so I just don't want to be here,

1188
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 2: and I just kept looking around, thinking around. I thought

1189
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: there is nothing in this world, and there was, but

1190
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that I want to be here for

1191
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: So I went down to the cliff of the tumba right,

1192
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 2: and I stand. I'm scared to deaf of heights, right,

1193
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 2: But I stand back from this cliff and I'm actually

1194
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 2: getting my carriage and I'm going to run and I'm

1195
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 2: going to jump. Where I was actually going to jump

1196
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: was actually a fence, and then there's another drop down

1197
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: but I didn't know that. But all of a sudden,

1198
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: as I'm about to go, I hear a voice and

1199
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: this guy says, hey, bro, And I look over and

1200
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: he goes, you know that people don't always die when

1201
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: they go over there, right, And I'm like, what you go?

1202
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: Sometimes they land at the bottom and all broken pieces

1203
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 2: and they've got to take hours to get them out.

1204
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: It was a smart, smart fellow that makes you think,

1205
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: doesn't it.

1206
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: And I was like, fuck a. My mind's already convoluted

1207
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 2: from seven days. I'm not sleeping pretty much, you know.

1208
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm like, and I'm thought that'd be pucking

1209
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 2: my luck. I'll land on a tree and fucking break

1210
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 2: everything on the way down and sit at the bottom,

1211
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: and aren't thought fuck it. And then the funniest part

1212
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: of the story, right was I thought that he rang

1213
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 2: the police. So on the way back, every light, everything

1214
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: I'm ducking in under cars.

1215
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: All the way, getting your breakdownce and work there.

1216
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: And then what happened was the next morning a rehab

1217
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 2: bring me and said you've got a space in Caroliica

1218
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 2: in Canberra, which was the start of the change of

1219
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: my life. But while I was in Camber in rehab cant,

1220
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: I didn't know I had thyroid cancer and I had

1221
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: two other nahors on my back as well.

1222
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 1: You thought you were just getting rock and getting super fit,

1223
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: and look at me, I'm stripped down, lean me.

1224
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: I thought I was buff bro. And they called me

1225
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: into the office one day and they said, mate, can

1226
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: you get your stand on the scales? Mate? And she

1227
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: said you're six foot two and you weigh sixty six kilos.

1228
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 2: I said, okay, you said, I think something's not righty.

1229
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 2: They took me in. There's only two types of actual cancer.

1230
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 2: It's called atypical pattern and forliquda amphipedia. I had them both.

1231
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: I had five nodules and that was rage and I

1232
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 2: was very unwell. And I also had hepatitis C and

1233
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 2: I had two melanamers on my back. Yeah, so they

1234
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: had to and you can't treat thyroid and lither together,

1235
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 2: so they had to take a risk. They did that,

1236
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 2: did my radiation, all that treatment, then they put me

1237
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: through a new trial perhaps, so you got rid of that,

1238
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 2: and they cut the two things out of my back

1239
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 2: as well.

1240
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 1: So you went through the full full thing, full thing. Yeah,

1241
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: and okay, and you're still smiling.

1242
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 2: I'm still smiling.

1243
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: There's a quote I meant to say it in the

1244
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: first part of the podcast. I like it, and I'm

1245
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: not sure if you invented it. You probably probably didn't,

1246
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: but i've heard you use it. Is it don't let

1247
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: the past rob you of your future. Yeah, that's a

1248
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: that's a really I highlighted that because it's a really

1249
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: powerful thing to say it because so many people have. Yeah,

1250
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: you've had all these kicks in the guts, Like just

1251
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: when you think you're getting through, getting getting new shit together,

1252
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: cancer comes in the place another one. But you're still standing. Yeah,

1253
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: and you're now doing doing some good stuff.

1254
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well that's right. I turned. I started to its

1255
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: started off on TikTok. My daughter asked me to do

1256
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: a dance on TikTok. When you do a dance to me, Dad, No,

1257
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: this time, I may have a wait. I haven't showered

1258
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,399
Speaker 2: in probably weeks, like being honest, not eating properly. I'm

1259
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: really not well. And she says, when you do a

1260
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 2: dance to me, TikTok dag. So so my money don't

1261
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 2: talk to jiggle jiggles. So my job was the jigle jiggle,

1262
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: you know. And then there're a bit of my rap dancing,

1263
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: you know. And then anyway, she's challenged me almost like

1264
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 2: you know, you're an old man, mate, no one's going

1265
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: to watch you on TikTok. I was like, okay, well,

1266
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 2: challenge accepted. So I went on and I read the

1267
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 2: back of my book. I got to about thirty thousand

1268
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 2: views and about a thousand followers.

1269
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: Street credibility with your daughter, then yeah.

1270
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. She thinks I'm famous. Now about a

1271
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 2: hundred you know, it's a lot more, but she's But anyway,

1272
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 2: that's how it started out. And then what actually happened

1273
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 2: was I shared a couple of parts of my journey

1274
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 2: on TikTok and stuff, and people started reaching out to me,

1275
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 2: you know, and they were people from the past, you know,

1276
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: and they were like, bro, you know you need to speak.

1277
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,720
Speaker 2: You know, you're articulate, you speak honestly. You know, you're

1278
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: not afraid, you know, because all of us are and

1279
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: are for different various reasons, whether it be family related,

1280
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 2: you know, there's old reasons. Yeah, and and it just

1281
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: grew into something and then that goes right. I was

1282
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 2: telling you about his an incredible story of his own.

1283
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: You know, he's big drug deal, all this stuff in

1284
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: by the me to Melbourne, and he sat me down.

1285
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 2: He said, bro, you've got a hell of a story.

1286
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: And he said, you know, you can really change hearts

1287
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: and souls, you know, if you just get your shit together.

1288
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 2: But I was still on some box of tone at

1289
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: the time, and I thought, fuck this, I'm going to

1290
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 2: get off it. And then when I was coming back

1291
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 2: from Melbourne, it was midnight and I caught the train.

1292
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: Bag don't even catch training in Melbourne. It's a fucking

1293
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 2: lot of tripment. But any way I did, and I

1294
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 2: got off the train. I saw all these homeless people

1295
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 2: at Central Station, where literally I used to sleep at

1296
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 2: one point in my life, and I thought, this is bullshit. Man,

1297
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: nothing's changed, you know. I thought, you know, I'm just

1298
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: going to I had seventy bucks, it's all I had

1299
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: to my name. I said, I'm going to spend this

1300
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 2: seventy bucks on these people and get to know their story.

1301
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 2: And I started doing that and I just kept backing up,

1302
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 2: backing up, backing up. And now it's going into an org.

1303
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: You know, like I'm running this shit. I've got a

1304
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 2: whole lot of volunteers at work with me now. And

1305
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 2: you know, we hand out swags, we had out sleeping bags,

1306
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 2: we hand out toiletries, we had out. But the biggest

1307
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: thing about it, Gary, it's not about the things that

1308
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 2: we give people. What it is is about connection. I'm

1309
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: trying to make people understand that, you know, show them

1310
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 2: that there's hope.

1311
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: You know.

1312
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to show people is I'm living

1313
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: proof that you can come out the other end, that

1314
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: today's addict could be tomorrow's advocate. And we are. We're

1315
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 2: changing the minds. And it's three pronged. For me, It's

1316
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 2: not just about helping those on the street. It's about

1317
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 2: making Australia aware that when you walk past someone on

1318
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: the street and you step around them or you call

1319
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: them a name, that could be someone's mother, brother, sister, annie, uncle,

1320
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: is somebody somebody right. But more importantly, mental health is

1321
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: a epidemic on the street. It's absolutely heinous. There's this

1322
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 2: misnomer that everyone on the street to heroin, addict or alcoholic,

1323
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 2: and that's not true. I mean there's a percentage that,

1324
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 2: but there's also a huge percentage that are there. Because

1325
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 2: they closed all the institutions as you know, back in

1326
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 2: around twenty fourteen fifteen for mental health and just release

1327
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 2: them onto the street.

1328
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: It has created the problems and people that find themselves

1329
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: our the home and showing that little bit of connection

1330
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 1: you call it connection connection there. But yeah, little things

1331
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: like that can make can make the world a difference.

1332
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 2: That's right, and that's what we do now. And I've

1333
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 2: surrounded myself. One of the smartest things that I've done

1334
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 2: is I've surrounded myself with people who can do the

1335
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 2: things I cannot. You know, I don't have the education

1336
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 2: everyone else. It's what I do do well is connect.

1337
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 2: I can see, I get And the other thing is

1338
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 2: I don't. I always get down and sit with people

1339
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 2: and I'll spend whatever time it is with them, and

1340
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: I like they come up and hug me, Hey, bro,

1341
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 2: I love you. It's so beautiful the way I've built

1342
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: this relationships. But what's happened is by the people that

1343
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: I've got with me now because I've built this rapport,

1344
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: they instantly trust the people that I surround myself with.

1345
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: And I've got an Ai n I've got a woman

1346
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 2: that's going to university also from the Cross, so another

1347
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 2: history of our own. There's a whole lot of people

1348
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 2: you know that are now just incredible, incredible.

1349
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: That lived experience. What's it called?

1350
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 2: And how can people I've called the leg Up Project

1351
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 2: and so you.

1352
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: Can how can people follow it or see what.

1353
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 2: I actually have a Facebook page called the leg Up

1354
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,959
Speaker 2: Project on Facebook, or you can follow my socials. We're

1355
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: about to create a web page, so we'll have a

1356
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: web page as well soon. I've got a podcast as

1357
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 2: you know. Of course, it's into the Cross on YouTube

1358
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 2: that I've just started because I tried. One of the

1359
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: problems is all the money from my book has been

1360
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: how I financed this up to now. So what I'm

1361
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 2: trying to do is trying to make a way where

1362
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: I'm able to fund it for not me doing it,

1363
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: you know. So I've created a YouTube page so that

1364
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 2: if I can monetize it, I can use that to

1365
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: do what I do on the streets because I give

1366
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: it So last two Christmases in a row, I gave

1367
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 2: out one eight hundred worth of gift cards the year

1368
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 2: before last and last year I gave out twenty eight hundred.

1369
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 2: I addressing is the drink this year. And on Christmas

1370
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 2: Day and Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve, I go with the

1371
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: church they give out presents. And then on Christmas Day,

1372
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: I just what I do is I ask Australia just

1373
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: send me a Christmas card, write a beautiful little message

1374
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 2: in it, and just stick at ten on the gift

1375
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 2: card inside and I'll hand that out on the street

1376
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 2: and I go live, so people get to literally watch

1377
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 2: me do it.

1378
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: Good on you. Wow, let's give the book of promo

1379
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 1: pass over here you follow up to the camera. Can

1380
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: people get the book?

1381
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: So it's several ways. It's called Predator's Paradise. So most

1382
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: people message me they want to get it directly from me,

1383
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:09,959
Speaker 2: but you can get it on Amazon, Kindle, book tape

1384
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 2: or all the places. But now it's on all twenty

1385
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 2: four platforms of audio. I've actually had Channel seven do

1386
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 2: it for me and make it. The only one that's

1387
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: not out on is Audible, but it will be in

1388
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 2: the next week. It's just that the picture. They didn't

1389
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 2: accept my picture, so we had to put a different

1390
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 2: picture there for the actual book, and we've now called

1391
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: it King's Cross a Predator's Paradise for audible.

1392
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well, you've heard just a snippet of Glenn's story today,

1393
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: and the book goes into a lot more detail and

1394
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: there's so much, so much, I say, fascinating them. I'm

1395
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: not sure if that's the right word. That's just really

1396
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,439
Speaker 1: if you want to understand someone's life that didn't start

1397
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: off the right way, but you've come through it, it's

1398
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: an inspiration.

1399
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have come out the other end. And one

1400
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 2: of the main reasons, like I said, I don't talk

1401
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 2: about my family, but that is the catalyst. The main

1402
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: reason for me is I don't want to see history

1403
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 2: repeat and it was repeating. I'm telling you, that's where

1404
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: it was going. And after rehab, you know, one of

1405
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 2: the best things rehabbed in for me was it made

1406
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 2: me realize that I didn't know shit. You know, I

1407
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 2: thought I knew a lot, like everything I knew was wrong.

1408
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 2: And that's pretty much what I had to start from

1409
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: scratch and rehab and start to learn about owning my shit.

1410
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 2: You know, start to own my behavior and start to

1411
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 2: change myself from the core. And I've done that. But

1412
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 2: the biggest catalyst for me was understanding the undercurrent to

1413
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 2: my addiction was trauma. And once I started to realize

1414
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 2: I've actually got PTSD, I have ADHD and all the

1415
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 2: other fucking leaders of the alphabet.

1416
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: Probably I could just keep having.

1417
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 2: But you know, the main one being PTSD. I don't

1418
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 2: think my trauma will ever fully go away, but I

1419
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 2: have better tools now to manage it.

1420
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 1: And that's that's the thing. It's not going to go

1421
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: away itself. That's all in the past. It's always there.

1422
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: But you've got the tools. Yeah, and I would imagine

1423
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing, and yeah, it would be

1424
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: bringing a good random act of kindness, which you're doing frequently.

1425
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 2: It's good to this absolutely, and the following that I

1426
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 2: have on social media, it's not just there. Like so

1427
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: many people reach out to me and share with me,

1428
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 2: you know they're suffering. I get so many mums and

1429
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 2: dad reached out about their child there, you know, the parent,

1430
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 2: whatever it is. You know, like shed one last story

1431
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 2: with you, because this is really one that I really

1432
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 2: touched my soul. I was walking into a post office

1433
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 2: and a woman come out with two little kids and

1434
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 2: she said, oh, you glenn off TikTok. I said, yes

1435
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 2: I am. She goes, please give you a hug, and

1436
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 2: then she started hugging me and she was almost sobbing,

1437
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 2: and I was like it was a little bit creepy

1438
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 2: at first. I'm like, what's going on here? And then

1439
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: she lets me go and she goes. Four weeks ago

1440
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 2: and my husband is an alcoholic, had a violin thro

1441
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 2: and stuff like the house. He hits me all the time.

1442
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 2: So we've split and left him. But before we left,

1443
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 2: my daughter grabbed one of your videos press play and

1444
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 2: put it in front of him and said watch that,

1445
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 2: then walked out the door. He rang her up about

1446
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 2: two weeks later and confessed to his own history. Right

1447
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 2: he's now. I think it's seven months nearly eight months

1448
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 2: sober in a rehab.

1449
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: There's a lot to people have got to own, haven't they.

1450
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: That's a starter time and that example you just provided.

1451
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,439
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, wow, what you're making a difference. Yeah,

1452
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: and making a difference. That must feel good.

1453
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 2: It does feel good, you know, Like I was. I

1454
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 2: was going to say I was a part of the problem.

1455
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: I was the fucking problem. I'm telling you, I was

1456
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 2: the problem.

1457
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

1458
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 2: And now I want to be a part of the solution.

1459
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 2: And I know that's cliche, but it's legit what I

1460
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: want to do. I want to use whatever time I've

1461
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 2: got left on this earth to I feel like my

1462
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 2: whole life Gary has been gives me the experience to

1463
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 2: do what I do. You know, that's the one good

1464
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,919
Speaker 2: thing that's come from all that trauma is that I'm

1465
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 2: able to empathize recognize what someone else is going through.

1466
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: I'm able to step back and instead of seeing the

1467
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 2: facade of someone, I see the heart of someone. Yeah,

1468
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: you know, And and that makes me able to connect

1469
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 2: on a level a lot of people can't.

1470
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 1: And and the courage to talk out like you've yeah

1471
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: talked out about because that's that and that's why the

1472
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: things that happened to you were allowed to happen because

1473
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: people didn't talk about it.

1474
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:56,439
Speaker 2: That's right.

1475
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Stigma, it's powerful stuff.

1476
01:02:59,360 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1477
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: Well, well, I am glad we've got you on I

1478
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: catch killers and you've got a lot of people that

1479
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: keep hitting me over the head with it going. You've

1480
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: got to get it, get him on get him on.

1481
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah ye, but yeah it's great and sitting down and

1482
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: chatting with you and just full credit to you, mate,

1483
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: I seriously say this. I was inspired by the way

1484
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: you've got through all the shit that was thrown at

1485
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: you and you've come out the other side and you're

1486
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: doing some really good work and you've made me reflect

1487
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: on what said. When you walk past people laying on

1488
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: the road, the people that haven't got a home for

1489
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 1: the time being, and.

1490
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 2: Bonus is free, Gary, it takes a minute to stop

1491
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 2: and say, hey mate, my name's Gary.

1492
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: How are you doing? You know?

1493
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 2: Could I buy you a coffee? You know? And the

1494
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 2: coffee's token is the it's the actual connection, you know,

1495
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 2: just say I see you, bro, you know, because you know,

1496
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 2: I know. When I was on the street, people used

1497
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 2: to walk past me. I felt like I was invisible,

1498
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: or if I wasn't invisible, people would say the most

1499
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 2: enous and horrible things to me, and I go home

1500
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 2: to your mother or and they didn't realize that wasn't

1501
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 2: an option for me. I didn't have that option. And

1502
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: we don't know what someone's going through until we know,

1503
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: you know.

1504
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: Not good good way to finish all the best for

1505
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: the future and stay in touch.

1506
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely cheers, absolutely thanks Gary,