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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Monday, February twenty three, twenty twenty six. Doctors should

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Speaker 1: be banned from bulk billing unless they spend time practicing

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Speaker 1: in the bush. That's a new policy idea from one

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Speaker 1: nation's newest recruit. Barnaby Joyce. The former National Party leader,

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Speaker 1: also says the tax system is too complex and the

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Speaker 1: party should consider modeling the cost of shifting to a

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Speaker 1: flat income tax rate where everyone pays the same proportion

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Speaker 1: of their earnings. That's an exclusive life now at the

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Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot a U, where we're looking closely

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Speaker 1: at one nation's finances, policies and prospects in a special

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Speaker 1: report today. More than five years on from the riot

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Speaker 1: at the Capitol in Washington, DC, and it's still causing

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Speaker 1: grief for media organization. Trump is suing the BBC for

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Speaker 1: ten billion US dollars for the way it edited his

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Speaker 1: speech that day. Trump's lawyers say it created a false

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Speaker 1: sense that he'd incited the violence. The BBC's apologized and

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Speaker 1: the scandal cost two senior executives their jobs, But the ABC,

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Speaker 1: which also did a selective editor of Trump's speech has

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Speaker 1: robustly defended itself Today The Australians revealing internal ABC emails

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Speaker 1: that show as senior journalist and PR executives shaping the

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Speaker 1: words used by the managing director, Hugh Marx in response

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Speaker 1: to questions about its conduct. So what's fair when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Trump? And who really runs the ABC? Steve

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Speaker 1: Jackson joins me in just a moment. Steve Jackson is

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Speaker 1: The Australian's media editor and is here to talk to

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Speaker 1: us today about a story that goes back. Like everything

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Speaker 1: in media, JACKO, I think to Donald Trump, He's at

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Speaker 1: the root of all stories. In twenty twenty one, the

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Speaker 1: ABC's Four Corners program aired a story hosted by Sarah

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Speaker 1: Ferguson about Donald Trump's speech in Washington, DC on January sixth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Of course, we all know that turned

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Speaker 1: into a riot where a mob of people stormed the

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Speaker 1: Capitol Building wanting to hang Mike Pants, the Vice president.

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Speaker 1: This is after Trump disputed his loss of the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty election. Let's listen to what the ABC aired in

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Speaker 1: that program.

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Speaker 2: And after this we're going to walk down and I'll

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Speaker 2: be there with you because You'll never take back our

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Speaker 2: country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you

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Speaker 2: have to be strong.

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Speaker 1: So what the ABC cut out was a line where

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump said that what they were going to do

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Speaker 1: when they got down to Congress would support the brave

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Speaker 1: senators and congressmen and women.

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Speaker 3: And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and

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Speaker 3: congressmen and women.

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Speaker 1: So that's what the ABC cut out of that speech.

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Speaker 1: This caused a huge drama within the ABC. Why.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's that interesting thing about what you leave out

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Speaker 4: is almost as important as what you put in. So

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Speaker 4: they have Trump talking about We're going to walk down

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Speaker 4: the Capitol Hill. We're going to walk down there. I'm

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Speaker 4: going to be there with you, and it sounds like

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Speaker 4: a call to power, right like, we're going to walk down.

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Speaker 4: What are they going to do when they get there, Well,

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Speaker 4: that's the part they left out. They're going to cheer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what actually happened was that they went down there

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Speaker 1: and started a riot and attempted to destroy the building.

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Speaker 1: I think at one point attempted to set it on fire.

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Speaker 1: It's probably the hottest issue in American politics between Trump's

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Speaker 1: two terms. His enemies thought that it was going to

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Speaker 1: be the end of him. His fans didn't really seem

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Speaker 1: to care. They obviously re elected him anyway. So when

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Speaker 1: the ABC was asked questions about this, did they respond

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Speaker 1: with a reasonable and measured response, Jacko to their questions, Well.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting. So when this came to a head last year,

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Speaker 4: questions have come in quite naturally from the Australian just

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Speaker 4: going well, we want to know a little bit more

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Speaker 4: about this. We weren't the only ones talking about it

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Speaker 4: was widely discussed and we fired in some questions and

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Speaker 4: said can we get an explanation? The ABC has done

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Speaker 4: what it usually does, siege mentality. They're accusing one of

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Speaker 4: our own of doing something. What are we going to do?

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Speaker 4: We're going to circle the wagons. So Hugh Mark's the

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Speaker 4: new managing directors, agreed, you know what, I'm going to

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Speaker 4: put out a statement. It's going to be my words,

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Speaker 4: my view, my defense of our program. Brilliant. But as

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Speaker 4: always it's one of those things of Hugh will let

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Speaker 4: you know what your opinion is when we want it.

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Speaker 4: So it's actually been workshopped for him. Now. There's nothing

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Speaker 4: surprising about that, per se Claire, as you'll know, quite

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Speaker 4: often when it comes to corporate responses, there's a whole

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Speaker 4: heap of spinners doing their dark arts behind the scenes.

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Speaker 4: What are they going to say? And they come up

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Speaker 4: with it. What's surprising in this instance is documents that

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Speaker 4: have been released to the Senate reveal the very person

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Speaker 4: that Hugh Marx is defending is the person telling him

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Speaker 4: what to say and requesting repeated edits of the supposed take.

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Speaker 4: You Marx has got to give him a clear review

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Speaker 4: of how he should be defending her. And that's the

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Speaker 4: host of seven thirty and the presenter of that report,

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Speaker 4: Sarah Ferguson.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In the emails that you've obtained, these internal emails at

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Speaker 1: the ABC, Sarah Ferguson says about those words that were

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Speaker 1: cut out of Trump's speech, the extra words do not

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Speaker 1: change the audience's understanding of his message urging the crowd

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Speaker 1: to pressure Congress to refuse the certification and overturn the

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Speaker 1: election result. The undisputed purpose of the protest and his speech,

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Speaker 1: she says, NB subsequent to broadcast, Congress failed to reach

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Speaker 1: the bar of proving criminal incitement of the riot. But

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Speaker 1: as the quote from McConnell makes clear, the facts of

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Speaker 1: his role that day in encouraging the crowd to pressure

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Speaker 1: Congress to stop the certification are not disputed. This speech

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Speaker 1: by Donald Trump was very long. It was an hour,

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Speaker 1: like most of his speeches, and of course to get

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Speaker 1: any of it on TV, you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: cut it down. A four corners report is about fifty

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Speaker 1: five minutes. There's no way you can play the entireety

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump's speech in what you need to be

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Speaker 1: an entertaining piece of journalism. So it's fair enough to

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Speaker 1: cut something out. The question is did what was cut

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Speaker 1: out change the meaning of Donald Trump's speech? And this

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Speaker 1: is his response to the fake news media. This is

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Speaker 1: what he says we do all the time to him,

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Speaker 1: which is cut out the context unfairly paint him as,

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Speaker 1: in this case, someone who's inciting violence. What's your view

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Speaker 1: before we discuss Sarah Sarah Ferguson's response, you've worked for

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Speaker 1: a long time in TV and in newspapers. What's your

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Speaker 1: view of cutting out the words we're going to cheer

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Speaker 1: on our brave senators in congressmen and women.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that's the difference that long form quite

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Speaker 4: often offers people because in six PM news bulletins and

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Speaker 4: seven pm on the ABC. Obviously what we get is

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Speaker 4: such tightly edited he said, she said, really snippets of

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Speaker 4: grabs or quotes. So the advantage of full corners is,

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Speaker 4: all right, let's break it down. Let's stop with the

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Speaker 4: black and white heroes and villains. Let's show the shades

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Speaker 4: of gray. This quote, this grab, in television parlance, is

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Speaker 4: what the story is about. Did he insight violence? And

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Speaker 4: so cut down your experts, cut down other speeches, cut

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Speaker 4: down other context. When this is such an important part

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Speaker 4: of your story, give people the full information, and if

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Speaker 4: you have to cut other things out to run along

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Speaker 4: on this and reveal everything he said, that's what you

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Speaker 4: need to do because the audience deserves to know, not

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Speaker 4: just he's part of what he said? What did he say?

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Speaker 4: And I think that's what four corners viewers, you're one,

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Speaker 4: I'm one, want to know. Let's just lay it all out.

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Speaker 4: And so I think that it is a failure of

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Speaker 4: the ABC in this circumstance to recognize that this is

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Speaker 4: such an important and crucial part of the story that

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Speaker 4: it deserved to be in there.

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Speaker 1: When you watch a full Donald Trump's speech, I think,

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Speaker 1: really get the nuance of his public persona in a

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Speaker 1: much better way. At the Charlie Kirk funeral, for example,

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Speaker 1: he was cracking jokes, he was making self deprecating remarks

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Speaker 1: about himself in comparison to Charlie Kirk. He was getting

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Speaker 1: laughs out of the audience, even though it was a

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Speaker 1: very sad moment. You get a picture of Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: has a much more complex political individual rather than the

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Speaker 1: kind of brash, one note demagogue who we see on

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Speaker 1: the TV news. And that's part of the Donald Trump story,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. You know, if you just see those short grabs,

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Speaker 1: you think, why would anyone vote for this guy? If

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Speaker 1: you actually listen to what he's saying, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I see why people find him appealing at a vuncular, warm,

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Speaker 1: charming in ways that maybe the rest of us don't.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's the beauty from an editorial point of

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Speaker 4: view of Donald Trump. He's a grab machine. You turn

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Speaker 4: up to any event he's at, and you know you

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Speaker 4: can splice it up into something interesting. We've seen the

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Speaker 4: commercial TV networks who didn't have Washington based bureaus, they're

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Speaker 4: all moving to operating largely out of La Hollywood. Stars,

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Speaker 4: you know, and traveling to Washington when they needed to

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Speaker 4: do something at the White House. Donald Trump comes in.

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Speaker 4: This guy is more entertaining than Hollywood. We need to

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Speaker 4: be boots on the ground to all his press conferences

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Speaker 4: because he offers it up. But when you have that

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Speaker 4: advantage that four Corners has, and let's not forget compared

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Speaker 4: to commercial TV, where sixty minutes in spotlight, we're talking

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Speaker 4: forty two minutes, forty three minutes of actual programming time

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Speaker 4: and seventeen minutes of ads, the ABC has this great

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Speaker 4: opportunity to go, hey, we're the ones who've got the time,

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Speaker 4: we've got the space. We know they've got the funding

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Speaker 4: because we pay for it to tell you the full,

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Speaker 4: unadulterated story and show that nuance. And I think that's

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Speaker 4: what viewers expect, and not for them to take a

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Speaker 4: stance on it because love him or hate him or

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Speaker 4: just be entertained by him. It's not for them to

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Speaker 4: decide whether or not he's inside violence. It's up for

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Speaker 4: them to just obviously report it and show all that

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Speaker 4: all that color, all that nuance, all that complexity. That's

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Speaker 4: what we expect and that's what we deserve.

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Speaker 1: So in the emails that you've obtained from the ABC.

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Speaker 1: You see Sarah Ferguson in there being very elbows out.

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Speaker 1: She is dictating the response that she wants to be heard.

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Speaker 1: And I've got to say, if I were Sarah Ferguson,

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Speaker 1: I might be in there too. I don't necessarily think

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Speaker 1: I would trust the PR people and the executives to

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Speaker 1: defend me. She certainly gives the impression that she wants

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Speaker 1: to write this response right.

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Speaker 4: And look, I don't blame her name any journal in

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Speaker 4: the country that doesn't care about their story, And there's

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Speaker 4: nothing wrong with her wanting to defend her journalism. Absolutely

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Speaker 4: nothing wrong with it. It's just that she's taken the

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Speaker 4: words out of few Mark's mouth and put her own

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Speaker 4: in there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the merely mouth nature of the ABC's initial attempted

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Speaker 1: the responses seems to be what's annoying her.

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Speaker 4: Right. She's spot on though, like Sarah Ferguson is spot

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Speaker 4: on right, because it's one of these things that even

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Speaker 4: we're tired of hearing it in the media. Claire, how

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Speaker 4: many times have you heard someone say we stand by

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Speaker 4: our story. Is it even meaningful anymore?

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Speaker 1: What does it tell you about the internal dynamics at

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Speaker 1: the ABC. You know who's really in charge, who's really

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Speaker 1: got the power.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it says it all if Sarah Ferguson says, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's all right. I like what you've done

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Speaker 4: with this. I see where you're going. But I think

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Speaker 4: it should say it was a powerful piece of journalism

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Speaker 4: and we're proud of it. And then lo and behold

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Speaker 4: an hour later the words coming out a few Mark's

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Speaker 4: mouth it's a powerful piece of journalism and we're proud

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Speaker 4: of it. And it's one of those things of all

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Speaker 4: of a sudden we're seeing for the first time who

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Speaker 4: the puppet master is pulling the strings. And you're not

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Speaker 4: supposed to see that in the show, but we've got

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Speaker 4: the documents and we know really it's the journal's pulling

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Speaker 4: the strings and the executive there just to play along

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Speaker 4: and tell them you're brilliant. That's not their job. And

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Speaker 4: I think it's one of these things that happens quite

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Speaker 4: often at the ABC, and we're seeing it again and

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Speaker 4: again with these documents. We're getting that they're confusing loyalty

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Speaker 4: with professionalism. They think circling the wagons and backing up

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Speaker 4: their staff regardless means that they're being great bosses. It's

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Speaker 4: not what their job is to ascertain the facts. Now,

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Speaker 4: I know if you've got a story, if I've got

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Speaker 4: a story and there's questions about it, our bosses will

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Speaker 4: read it and they'll review it and they'll come to

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Speaker 4: us for our point of view. But we don't tell

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Speaker 4: them what they say. That is just the way it operates.

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Speaker 4: And particularly in a public broadcaster, in a public organization,

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Speaker 4: you can't have the tail wagging the dog.

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Speaker 1: So let's listen to the BBC's version of this story.

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Speaker 1: And this is really the backdrop to why this is

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Speaker 1: a big deal, right. The BBC did a similar story

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, but did a much more sort

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Speaker 1: of stark edit of Donald Trump's speech. I'll play that

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Speaker 1: for you, JACKO. We're going to.

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Speaker 2: Walk down to the capital and I'll be there with you,

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Speaker 2: and we fight.

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Speaker 1: We fight like hell.

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Speaker 2: And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going

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Speaker 2: to have a country anymore.

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Speaker 1: Here's what Trump actually said. This is from the raw footage.

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Speaker 1: You'll hear there's a slight digital gleach, but we haven't

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Speaker 1: edited this at all. It's the full speech as it

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Speaker 1: ran on American TV Live that day.

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Speaker 2: And after this, we're gonna walk down and I'll be

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Speaker 2: there with you. We're gonna walk down. We're going to

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Speaker 2: walk down anyone you want. But I think right here,

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Speaker 2: we're going to walk.

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Speaker 5: Down to the Capital.

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Speaker 3: And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and

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Speaker 3: congressmen and women.

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Speaker 1: So again that's the line that the ABC cut out,

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Speaker 1: the BABC cut out more.

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Speaker 2: And we're probably not going to be cheering so much

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Speaker 2: for some of them, because you'll never take back our

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Speaker 2: country with weakness.

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Speaker 3: You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

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Speaker 5: We have come to demand that Congress do the right

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Speaker 5: thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully

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Speaker 5: slated lawfully.

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Speaker 2: I know that everyone here will soon be marching over

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Speaker 2: to the Capitol Building to peacefully and patriotically make your

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Speaker 2: voices heard.

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Speaker 1: Peacefully and patriotically. That's the key phrase there that neither

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Speaker 1: the ABC nor the BBC used. The BBC is now

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Speaker 1: being sued by Donald Trump for billions of dollars. What

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Speaker 1: impact is that having on journalism, particularly at the BBC.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's one of those circumstances, and I think that

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Speaker 4: what we're seeing now with the rise of social media,

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Speaker 4: which is only a good thing. Is this has been

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Speaker 4: a constant problem in television long format a sweets for

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Speaker 4: a long time. Look, I did work experience at sixty

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Speaker 4: minutes back in the nineties and it was an eye

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Speaker 4: opener in as far as grabs were being married up

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Speaker 4: with the wrong questions. Quite often it was an editor

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Speaker 4: behind the scenes who said, you know, I think this

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Speaker 4: goes better with that, or or will put this here

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Speaker 4: and it's more entertaining. And right now we hear that

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Speaker 4: happening still in married at First Sight, and it's controversial.

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Speaker 4: Surely in the marriative first side.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying it's not real?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but the contestants are saying that's controversial in reality TV.

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Speaker 4: But when we see it in real life editorial reporting.

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Speaker 4: And the advantage we have now is there's no longer

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Speaker 4: this gatekeeper where we control the information and the public

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Speaker 4: gets what's served up to them, because if you get

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Speaker 4: caught doing this, people aren't stupid. I think it's that

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Speaker 4: issue where traditionally some people, not all journalists, A lot

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Speaker 4: of journalists have great respect for the audience, as we do.

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Speaker 4: Because we've got the smartest audience in the country, but

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Speaker 4: where they think that they're dictating the news. And the

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Speaker 4: problem is the BBC's cut is obviously quite egregious. I've

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Speaker 4: actually wanted to ask you your thoughts on this because

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Speaker 4: we haven't had a chance to talk about it before. Now,

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Speaker 4: I mean you've seen this sort of stuff in action before.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Of course, as journalists we have to edit. That's

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Speaker 1: what we do. We distill huge volumes of complex information

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Speaker 1: and what we cut out is as important as what

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Speaker 1: we leave in. Every cut and every word is editorial choice.

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Speaker 1: I think it's there's a false distinction between analysis and reporting. Really,

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Speaker 1: people say, oh, all I do is report, I don't analyze,

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Speaker 1: I don't put my own opinion in there. I think

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Speaker 1: that's not true. Every choice that we make, every quote

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Speaker 1: that we use, is analysis. We're shaping how we want

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Speaker 1: our audience to read the story. And the only way

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Speaker 1: to do balanced reporting is to make sure everybody gets

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Speaker 1: a fair go and that what you quote is a

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Speaker 1: fair reflection of what they've said. And this is the

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Speaker 1: issue with Trump. If you quote from him, I think

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Speaker 1: you need to make sure that not necessarily you're using

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Speaker 1: forty five minutes, but that you are giving a fair

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Speaker 1: impression of what he did and what he said. I

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Speaker 1: think it's inexcusable to leave out a phrase like peaceful

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Speaker 1: and patriotic and also the brave senators and congresswomen, because

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Speaker 1: that was in there. I mean, I still think, actually

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Speaker 1: is my own personal opinion, that Donald Trump was whipping

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Speaker 1: up this crowd, but he was doing it in a

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump way, in a subtle way. He didn't say

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Speaker 1: go down there and riot. In fact, he said the opposite,

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Speaker 1: but you might think that his body language and the

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Speaker 1: fact that he could see that this crowd included people

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Speaker 1: who were holding signs saying hang. Mike Pence told a

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Speaker 1: different story.

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Speaker 4: Well, we saw that in Australia two decades ago when

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Speaker 4: Alan Jones got in trouble for telling people effectively, don't

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Speaker 4: go down to Cronulla and start right but here's where

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Speaker 4: they're meeting up. And you know, if you want to

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Speaker 4: join in, you shouldn't. But if you did it, it's

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Speaker 4: on here and now and this is when it's occurring.

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Speaker 4: And by publicizing those details and whipping it up, but again,

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Speaker 4: as you say, by being provided with that full context,

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Speaker 4: it's really for the viewer to make their decision. And

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Speaker 4: you know, It's one of those things where the more

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Speaker 4: information you give, and as you say, the essence of

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Speaker 4: the quotes, it's important. It's crucial.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: Having said that, certainly not on Donald Trump's side in

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Speaker 1: his lawsuit against the BBC. It would be catastrophic for

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Speaker 1: Britain if the AB was forced to hand over five

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Speaker 1: billion dollars to Donald Trump in a defamation payout, wouldn't it?

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Speaker 1: And what do you think about that?

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Speaker 4: I disagree with anyone suing journalists at any point, but

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Speaker 4: obviously I think, you know, have a conversation, call them

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Speaker 4: up and go, hey, you've got this wrong. Give me

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Speaker 4: a chance to tell my side. There's not a journal

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Speaker 4: in the world that won't go, oh you beauty, I've

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Speaker 4: got the next story. I'm strongly against, particularly Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: His defense in this conversation is it's a great American

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Speaker 4: tradition to be able to hold the power to account.

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Speaker 4: And I'm saying, actively pursue your your rights to protest

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Speaker 4: and then to turn around and go. But I don't

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Speaker 4: like their right to free speech. You can't have it

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Speaker 4: both ways. And I completely disagree with and let's face it,

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Speaker 4: it's not five billion dollars worth of damages to his reputation.

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Speaker 4: If anyone thinks less of him for that, you know,

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Speaker 4: I'd like to meet who they are, because because all

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Speaker 4: it has done is solidify the people who had conflicting

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Speaker 4: views about him already.

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Speaker 1: Well, he went on to win the election, of course,

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Speaker 1: didn't he. That sumably will be Exhibit A in the

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Speaker 1: bbcister fense. So we didn't destroy his reputation. Mark he

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Speaker 1: is the ruler of the free world, and his aunts

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Speaker 1: in his second term showing I think I'm more powerful

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump than even we'd anticipated.

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Speaker 4: Well, obviously there's a fair bit of a look over

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Speaker 4: here those Epstein fight Well Epstein, what you know? So

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Speaker 4: look everything with Donald Trumpy's showmanship. But at the same

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Speaker 4: point we have to present the full show.

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Speaker 1: Good cool, Steve Jackson, thank you very.

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Speaker 4: Much, Thank you for having me again, Clay.

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Speaker 1: Steve Jackson edits The Diary in The Australian's Media section.

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Speaker 1: It's live right now along with all the rest of

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Speaker 1: Australia's best coverage of media, politics, business, sport and entertainment.

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Speaker 1: Check us out now at the Australian dot com dot

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Speaker 1: au