Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM in
Speaker 1: the aftermath of the Bondai terror attack. The country is grieving.
Speaker 1: It's a moment that calls for unity and for leadership,
Speaker 1: but what we're seeing is something else. Within days, political
Speaker 1: lines hardened, a former Prime minister stepped in, the opposition
Speaker 1: shifted its message, and international leaders joined the chorus. With
Speaker 1: political venoms so close to the surface, it revealed something
Speaker 1: deeper about how crisis is now handled in Australian politics.
Speaker 1: Today Press Gallery veteran Paul bon Jorno on the gap
Speaker 1: between who we want to be and who we are.
Speaker 1: It's Saturday, December twenty Paul, it's been a terrible week
Speaker 1: for the country. What struck you the most about the
Speaker 1: way our political leaders have handled themselves after Sunday's terror
Speaker 1: attack at Bondi.
Speaker 2: Or Daniel, it has been a terrible week for the country,
Speaker 2: but we can't gain say that it's been a completely
Speaker 2: shocking week for the Jewish community and for the grieving
Speaker 2: families in Bondai. And given that it's been frankly disgusting
Speaker 2: that people have tried to leverage political advantage by blaming
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister and the Government of Australia for this massacre,
Speaker 2: even saying that Alberanzi bears personal responsibility, when any sane
Speaker 2: or rational person would see the personal responsibility is borne
Speaker 2: by the gunman.
Speaker 1: And immediately after the attack Israel's Prime Minister Bernjaminetna, who
Speaker 1: did exactly that, saying Alberanizi was to blame because of
Speaker 1: his decision to recognize a Palestinian state.
Speaker 3: The government did nothing to stop the spread of anti
Speaker 3: Semitism in Australia. You did nothing to curb the cancer
Speaker 3: cells that were growing inside your country. You took no action,
Speaker 3: You let the disease spread, and the result is the
Speaker 3: horrific attacks on Jews we saw today.
Speaker 1: How did Alberanzi handle that well?
Speaker 2: Albanizi is acutely aware that at this time, the last
Speaker 2: thing he should do as the Prime Minister of Australia,
Speaker 2: the leader of the twenty seven million Australians from every
Speaker 2: walk of life, every belief and none, is to further
Speaker 2: enhance or further amplify the grief and the anger and
Speaker 2: the bewilderment that's out there. So rather than even engage
Speaker 2: with Netta Yahoo, he ignored the vitriol and the barbs,
Speaker 2: and he spoke of the need for us all to
Speaker 2: come together.
Speaker 4: What people are looking for this time isn't more division.
Speaker 4: They are looking to come together. I've sat in homes
Speaker 4: in Sydney as well as having formal meetings with members
Speaker 4: of the Jewish community. They're hurting and I think all Australians'
Speaker 4: hearts goes out to them at this time.
Speaker 1: And usually in Christis Paul, as you've mentioned, we see
Speaker 1: rare moments of bipartisanship. That's not what we've seen this week.
Speaker 1: Tell me how Susan Lee's response to the massacres shifted
Speaker 1: over the days following.
Speaker 2: Well, I've got to say that on Sunday night, when
Speaker 2: we were all struggling to come to terms with what
Speaker 2: was happening. You know, at first you could hardly believe
Speaker 2: your ears. Then when you saw the television you couldn't
Speaker 2: believe your eyes. Susan Lee put out a statement which
Speaker 2: was considered and it was unifying. She said, today we
Speaker 2: stand together as Australians against hate in this moment of
Speaker 2: profound tragedy and shock. She even said she provided the
Speaker 2: Prime Minister and the Commonwealth and state agencies with the
Speaker 2: coalition's full and unconditional support. Now, a source within the
Speaker 2: Liberal Party tells me that Lee overnight came in for
Speaker 2: extreme criticism for putting that statement out and not being
Speaker 2: far more political in shooting home as much blame as
Speaker 2: possible on Albanizi and the government. So next morning we
Speaker 2: saw a change of tack from Lee.
Speaker 5: We've seen a clear failure to keep Jewish Australians safe.
Speaker 5: We've seen a clear lack of leadership in keeping Jewish
Speaker 5: Australians safe.
Speaker 2: And she said it was a lack of leadership allowing
Speaker 2: anti Semitism to fester over the past two years.
Speaker 1: And then former Prime Minister John Howard waiting quickly as well,
Speaker 1: blaming the PM for the rise in anti semitism and
Speaker 1: calling for further debate on gun reform. A diversion. I
Speaker 1: don't want that once more. Let me say that.
Speaker 6: Couldn't be degraded into a debate about changes to government.
Speaker 6: Was that is a diversion. The issue here is anti Semitism.
Speaker 6: The failure over the last two years has been that
Speaker 6: of the federal government, led by the Prime Minister as
Speaker 6: Any alban Easy to bring sufficient energy to a broad
Speaker 6: based attack on the evil of Andy Semitism.
Speaker 1: What did you make of his intervention?
Speaker 2: Well, I thought it was extraordinary. I thought it was
Speaker 2: unbecoming for a former Prime minister, and I thought it
Speaker 2: was chriss politics the Times.
Speaker 1: What you really think, Paul, You've covered the way John
Speaker 1: Howard handled port Arthur. How would you compare the way
Speaker 1: Anthony Alberenezi is responding now.
Speaker 2: Well, you're right. I was in the Parliamentary press gallery
Speaker 2: when port Arthur happened. But Howard immediately responded as the
Speaker 2: leader of a nation that had just suffered an enormous damage,
Speaker 2: a hurt.
Speaker 5: Prime Minister John Howard revealed his plans for strict new
Speaker 5: gun laws in the Federal Parliament late today.
Speaker 6: We need to achieve a total prohibition on the ownership, possession,
Speaker 6: stale and importation of all automatic and semi automatic weapons.
Speaker 2: And he was fully supported in that by Kim Beasley,
Speaker 2: the leader of the Opposition. And when Howard decided that
Speaker 2: what port Arthur demonstrated was that Australia's gun laws did
Speaker 2: not offer enough protection to Australians, he moved, and he
Speaker 2: moved against outspoken elements of his base, particularly in the
Speaker 2: National Party, that repeated the slogan that we're hearing again
Speaker 2: now that guns don't kill, people kill, well, people with
Speaker 2: guns do kill, and Howard appreciated this and bought in
Speaker 2: far reaching gun reforms against some outspoken opposition, but with
Speaker 2: the full support of Kim Beasley and the Parliament.
Speaker 1: This week, the government has been blamed for not doing
Speaker 1: enough to stamp out a rise in anti Semitism. It's
Speaker 1: now been almost six months since Gillian Siegel handed down
Speaker 1: her report laying out what she thinks needs to be
Speaker 1: done to deal with anti Semitism. So has the government
Speaker 1: failed in not at least responding to what she had
Speaker 1: to say one way or another until after the attack.
Speaker 2: Well, Daniel, that's the narrative that's been put out by
Speaker 2: some leaders of the Jewish community and being put out
Speaker 2: very strongly by the federal opposition and people like John
Speaker 2: Howard and Josh Friedenberg, the former Liberal Treasurer who's also Jewish.
Speaker 7: Our Prime Minister. Our government has allowed Australia to be
Speaker 7: radicalized on his watch. It's time for him to accept
Speaker 7: personal responsibility for the death of fifteen innocent people, including
Speaker 7: a ten year old child.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all. Speaking
Speaker 2: to senior cabinet ministers this week, one did say to me,
Speaker 2: perhaps we should have put out a list of what
Speaker 2: we were doing and what we were still looking at,
Speaker 2: to assure people that we'd taken the report seriously. But
Speaker 2: having said that, he pointed, as Albanizi has and as
Speaker 2: Tony Burke has, to things that were immediately done, things
Speaker 2: like first ever hate laws.
Speaker 8: Australia's diversity is our great strength. With these laws, we
Speaker 8: are sending a clear signal to those who seek to
Speaker 8: divide us. There is no place in this country for
Speaker 8: hate speech and other hateful conduct that urges or threatens
Speaker 8: violence against others.
Speaker 2: Just very quickly on hate laws. You might remember there
Speaker 2: was a huge debate about whether freedom of speech was
Speaker 2: being impinged by eighteen c of the Racial Discrimination Act
Speaker 2: and should be appealed. You might even remember that the
Speaker 2: Liberal Attorney General George Brand has said people should be
Speaker 2: free to be bigots. Well, it was the Labor government
Speaker 2: after the Siegel Report that actually legislated against hate speech.
Speaker 2: It also legislated against hate symbols like the Nazi salute.
Speaker 2: So things were being done there. There was an ombudsman
Speaker 2: put into universities to consider the situation about complaints about
Speaker 2: the treatment of Jewish students. All of these things were
Speaker 2: suggested by Siegel, and they were implemented by the Labor
Speaker 2: government and, by the way, implemented by a Jewish Attorney General,
Speaker 2: Mark Dreyfuss. But let me say to you, and I
Speaker 2: know this from cabinet sources, that there were concerns about
Speaker 2: some elements of Siegel's report, particularly the definition of anti Semitism,
Speaker 2: because even though the definition at face value basically homes
Speaker 2: in on hatred of the Jews, the people who put
Speaker 2: it together also cited examples that could be seen as
Speaker 2: anyone who criticizes Israel is by definition anti semitic. And
Speaker 2: this is a real worry because is that anti semitic
Speaker 2: or is it standing up for human values and human
Speaker 2: rights as laid out, for example, in the United Nations Charter.
Speaker 2: So there was some reluctance to go there. But now,
Speaker 2: of course, after what happened on the weekend, Alberizi has
Speaker 2: embraced the definition that has been given. But Alberizi has
Speaker 2: said that he will work with the Special Envoy Gillian
Speaker 2: Siegel on how to apply the definition, how to assure
Speaker 2: greater safety for, for example, Jewish students on campus, while
Speaker 2: at the same time not impinging on freedom of speech
Speaker 2: in a democracy like Australia. It's a fine line, but
Speaker 2: it's one that surely has.
Speaker 1: To be walked, coming up new laws to crack down
Speaker 1: on hate speech and a path through the division Paul.
Speaker 1: On Thursday, Anthony Alberinezi announced his five point plan to
Speaker 1: end Anti Semitism. What's in it?
Speaker 2: Well, it's quite a lot in Daniel. The five point
Speaker 2: plan homes in on hate speech.
Speaker 4: Firstly, the Attorney General and Minister for Home Affairs will
Speaker 4: develop a package of legislative reforms to crack down on
Speaker 4: those who spread hate, division and radicalization.
Speaker 2: It makes it an aggravated offense for preachers and leaders
Speaker 2: who promote violence. It increases penalties for hate speech that
Speaker 2: does promote violence, makes hate an aggravating factor for sentencing
Speaker 2: crimes and for online threats and harassment.
Speaker 4: Fourthly, developing a regime for listing organizations as leaders engage
Speaker 4: in hate speech, promoting violence or racial hatred. And Fifthly,
Speaker 4: developing a narrow federal offense for serious vilification based on
Speaker 4: race and or advocating racial supremacy.
Speaker 2: That last point will be quite difficult because governments labor
Speaker 2: and Liberal have not known what to do about vilification,
Speaker 2: given that some of Australia's senior church leaders were worried
Speaker 2: that vilification laws could stop them, for example, of preaching
Speaker 2: a belief that many of them have that homosexuality is
Speaker 2: a grave sin.
Speaker 1: For example, Paul, the Liberal Party used to be the
Speaker 1: party of free speech. Like you said, they spent years
Speaker 1: trying to water down the Racial Discrimination Act. How significant
Speaker 1: has the shift been from them this week in relation
Speaker 1: to free speech.
Speaker 2: It's been mightily significant. But it is of a peace
Speaker 2: with the way in which John Howard responded to nine
Speaker 2: to eleven, where a raft of new laws were brought in,
Speaker 2: with many human rights lawyers warning that we were chipping
Speaker 2: away at the very foundation of our free, democratic society.
Speaker 1: So there is a.
Speaker 2: Record, if you like. The Coalition has a record of
Speaker 2: encroaching on freedoms in the name of keeping us safe.
Speaker 2: And even though as you say, they were opposed to
Speaker 2: elements of the Racial Discrimination Act on the basis of
Speaker 2: free speech, I think last Sunday has absolutely changed the context,
Speaker 2: not only for the Coalition and the Liberals, but also
Speaker 2: for the government. As Tony Burke, the Minister, said in
Speaker 2: several interviews this week, the emphasis now is on keeping
Speaker 2: people safe.
Speaker 1: And finally, Paul, I've been uneasy a week watching how
Speaker 1: device if this moment has become for all the people
Speaker 1: coming together to try and comfort each other there after
Speaker 1: a national tragedy, there's been people blaming each other and
Speaker 1: using it as an opportunity to peddle their own agendas.
Speaker 1: What do you think it would take to lower the temperature.
Speaker 2: Well, I share with you discussed at the rank opportunism
Speaker 2: we've seen from politicians and their fellow travelers this week.
Speaker 2: The first thing that it will take is that we
Speaker 2: give the Jewish community, especially the families of the victims,
Speaker 2: but also their friends and their co religionists, time to grieve.
Speaker 2: We should give them the dignity to feel their hurt
Speaker 2: and pain with our arms wrapped around them, but not
Speaker 2: trying to leverage anything from this pain other than rebuild
Speaker 2: a sense of belonging, a sense of justice, and a
Speaker 2: sense of recovery. That's going to take time. It won't
Speaker 2: be helped by thoughtless or inflamed rehtoric, but it's a
Speaker 2: task that the whole nation. Every one of us has
Speaker 2: to embrace.
Speaker 1: Paul. Thank you so much for your time. Have a
Speaker 1: safe and happy Christmas in and a grand happy New Year.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Daniel, the same to you and
Speaker 2: all the team. At seven am.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow has been declared a day of reflection to one
Speaker 1: of the victims of last Sunday's attack. Prime Minister Anthony
Speaker 1: Albernezi has also said there would be a national day
Speaker 1: of mourning, which he will confirm in the new year.
Speaker 1: Seven Am was a daily show from Solstice Media. It's
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