WEBVTT - Did police overlook Erin Patterson’s ‘missing’ phone?

0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:07.680
<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:15.440
<v Speaker 1>It's Friday, May thirty, twenty twenty five. An extremist cleric

0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.239
<v Speaker 1>who preached that Jews were monsters thirsty for blood has

0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.759
<v Speaker 1>formally apologized and promised not to vilify Jews. But The

0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Australian's reporting today the Sheikh last Friday prayed for God

0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:37.559
<v Speaker 1>to kill all the oppressors of Gaza. There's uproar and

0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.040
<v Speaker 1>more confusion about whether Donald Trump's tariffs will apply after

0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.320
<v Speaker 1>an American court said they were unlawful. You can read

0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.559
<v Speaker 1>what that means for Australian exporters whose world has been

0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.400
<v Speaker 1>turned upside down right now at the Australian dot com

0:00:52.440 --> 0:01:00.920
<v Speaker 1>do AU. Did Aaron Patterson really search the web for

0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.479
<v Speaker 1>information about death cap mushrooms? And did police miss a

0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.759
<v Speaker 1>crucial piece of evidence when searching her house? Today? Where

0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.520
<v Speaker 1>the defense lawyer is probing the police case against Patterson,

0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.319
<v Speaker 1>who's pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder and

0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:26.120
<v Speaker 1>one of attempted murder. We've used voice actors throughout this

0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:32.600
<v Speaker 1>episode to bring you the words aired in court. What

0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:36.520
<v Speaker 1>happened at Aaron Patterson's house when police showed up to

0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:41.800
<v Speaker 1>execute a search warrant, and wear's Patterson's missing phone. Those

0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:43.720
<v Speaker 1>are two of the big questions at the heart of

0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.520
<v Speaker 1>the so called mushroom murder trial, where Patterson is accused

0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.440
<v Speaker 1>of murdering three elderly relatives and attempting to murder a

0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:56.240
<v Speaker 1>fourth by deliberately feeding them beef wellington laced with deadly

0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:01.040
<v Speaker 1>death cap mushrooms. She's pleaded not guilty, and her defense

0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.040
<v Speaker 1>lawyer has told the jury the poisoning was a tragic

0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.480
<v Speaker 1>accident that even though she lied to police about whether

0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.080
<v Speaker 1>she'd ever foraged for mushrooms, that was a sign not

0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.200
<v Speaker 1>of guilt, but of panic at the catastrophe that was unfolding.

0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.560
<v Speaker 1>On Thursday, Aaron Patterson's lawyer, Colin Mandy Casey Cross examined

0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.920
<v Speaker 1>the lead homicide cop in the case, Detective Senior Constable

0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Stephen Eppingstall. The Crown has told the jury Patterson's main

0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.080
<v Speaker 1>mobile phone with her primary SIM card they're calling it

0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:39.000
<v Speaker 1>phone A, has never been recovered by police. The juries

0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:43.000
<v Speaker 1>heard that on five August twenty twenty three, as the

0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.880
<v Speaker 1>elderly lunch guests were critically ill in hospital or on

0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.240
<v Speaker 1>their way to the Morgue police showed up to search

0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.959
<v Speaker 1>Patterson's home. The Crown says it was during that search

0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.400
<v Speaker 1>that Patterson took her main sim out of phone A,

0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.000
<v Speaker 1>a Samsung Galaxy, and put it in a Nokia phone.

0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:05.520
<v Speaker 1>The Crown says she then surrendered a totally different device,

0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.880
<v Speaker 1>phone B, to the police when they asked for her phone.

0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.880
<v Speaker 1>Here's Colin Mandy Cross examining Cop Stephen epping Stall. We've

0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:16.000
<v Speaker 1>used voice actors.

0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:20.880
<v Speaker 2>Is it the case that you and miss Patterson had

0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:22.800
<v Speaker 2>a discussion about the Nokia mobile phone.

0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.320
<v Speaker 3>In the record of interview, she did mention that there

0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:27.480
<v Speaker 3>was a Nokia In.

0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.720
<v Speaker 1>The police interview, Patterson said this about the Nokia. It's

0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.040
<v Speaker 1>a really old Nokia that I've got for like, you know,

0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:35.800
<v Speaker 1>if you break your phone and you've got to send

0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.320
<v Speaker 1>it away for repairs, so it's this really old thing.

0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:42.800
<v Speaker 2>But you don't recall having seized that phone.

0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.040
<v Speaker 3>No, we definitely didn't seize the Nokia.

0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Because your case is that the Nokia came into use

0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.200
<v Speaker 2>after that time. Yes, sir, so it couldn't have been

0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:52.920
<v Speaker 2>seized because you would have had it.

0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, correct, Yeah.

0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.800
<v Speaker 1>Mandy showed epping staol a police photo from.

0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.520
<v Speaker 2>The Do you know what that black item is sitting

0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:04.320
<v Speaker 2>on the window sill?

0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.080
<v Speaker 3>No, I've got no idea, sir.

0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.920
<v Speaker 2>Can I suggest that is phone? A? In a case?

0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.280
<v Speaker 3>I don't think that's consistent with the phone, but it's

0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:13.160
<v Speaker 3>a matter for the jury.

0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.080
<v Speaker 2>I'd say, sir, you don't exclude that possibility.

0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:18.640
<v Speaker 3>If that was a phone, I would think we would

0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:19.200
<v Speaker 3>have seized it.

0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.920
<v Speaker 1>After the search. On August five, Eppingstall took Aaron Patterson

0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.000
<v Speaker 1>to warm Thaggy police station for an interview. The video

0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.679
<v Speaker 1>of that conversation was played to the jury earlier this week.

0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.520
<v Speaker 1>The Crown alleges that during that interview, Patterson gave police

0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.360
<v Speaker 1>the phone number not for her main phone, which they

0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:43.159
<v Speaker 1>say they've never found, but for a different device, phone B,

0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.960
<v Speaker 1>which the Crown says she had loaded with a SIM

0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.120
<v Speaker 1>card that she'd taken out of a Samsung tablet.

0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.120
<v Speaker 2>You knew that Aaron Patterson was utilizing the phone number

0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.240
<v Speaker 2>ending in seven eighty three prior to the execution of

0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.799
<v Speaker 2>the search warrant. Yes, that is correct, and you didn't

0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:03.920
<v Speaker 2>ask her about the fact of the seven eight three

0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:05.679
<v Speaker 2>mobile number in the record of interview.

0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.080
<v Speaker 3>No, I asked her for a phone number in the

0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.880
<v Speaker 3>record of interview, and I didn't realize that she hadn't

0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.280
<v Speaker 3>given me that number. I just wrote it down and

0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:14.400
<v Speaker 3>just moved past it.

0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.320
<v Speaker 2>She gave you the phone number of the phone she

0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:18.640
<v Speaker 2>surrendered to police earlier.

0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, correct, I just wrote it down and didn't give

0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:23.599
<v Speaker 3>it any more thought until later on.

0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.440
<v Speaker 1>Mandy put it to epping Stall that phone a was

0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.880
<v Speaker 1>at one point being used by Aaron Patterson's teenage son.

0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:38.440
<v Speaker 1>Epping Stall said he didn't know coming up. Did Aaron

0:05:38.480 --> 0:06:04.520
<v Speaker 1>Patterson really search the web for deathcat mushrooms. One of

0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.520
<v Speaker 1>the pieces of evidence the Crown has put before the

0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.040
<v Speaker 1>jury is web searches made by Aaron Patterson on her computer,

0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.960
<v Speaker 1>a Cooler Master brand, which police found in her home

0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.880
<v Speaker 1>on the top shelf of her son's bedroom cupboard. The

0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.680
<v Speaker 1>Crown showed the jury screenshots of a website called eye Naturalist,

0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.320
<v Speaker 1>where citizen scientists or real scientists can upload images of

0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.320
<v Speaker 1>and information about flora and fauna they've spotted in the wild.

0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.200
<v Speaker 1>The screenshots showed to the jury suggested searches had been

0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.719
<v Speaker 1>made on that computer for deathcap mushrooms, but Colin Mandy

0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:40.880
<v Speaker 1>k C for Aaron Patterson wanted to know if the

0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.920
<v Speaker 1>cops could actually prove that these web searches allegedly conducted

0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.280
<v Speaker 1>by Aaron Patterson in May twenty twenty two showed anything

0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.440
<v Speaker 1>important at all. Epping still agreed he had analyzed Patterson's

0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.400
<v Speaker 1>alleged web activity in December twenty twenty four, so nineteen

0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:57.760
<v Speaker 1>months after the searches.

0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Other than the fact this is a page with the

0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.800
<v Speaker 2>same name, same URL, same address, you don't have any

0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.239
<v Speaker 2>evidence as to what the landing page for this URL

0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.120
<v Speaker 2>was in May twenty twenty two. No, I don't, sir,

0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.760
<v Speaker 2>Or if it was this landing page in twenty twenty two,

0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.080
<v Speaker 2>whether any of the details contained on it were the

0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:19.720
<v Speaker 2>same then yes.

0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.080
<v Speaker 1>Mandy also asked Eppingstall why the police's mobile phone expert,

0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.760
<v Speaker 1>Dr Matthew Cerrell had not done a more detailed report

0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.040
<v Speaker 1>on some aspects of the evidence about where Patterson's phone

0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.200
<v Speaker 1>was allegedly pinging mobile phone towers. If you've been following

0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.880
<v Speaker 1>the trial, you might recall Doctor Currell told the jury

0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.000
<v Speaker 1>that Aaron Patterson's phone allegedly pinned mobile phone towers in

0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.120
<v Speaker 1>the area where deathcat mushrooms had recently been reported on

0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:52.240
<v Speaker 1>the Eye Naturalist website. Eppingstall said he was restricted by

0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:56.880
<v Speaker 1>costs and only did the most detailed search called an EBM,

0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.280
<v Speaker 1>for a limited number of days.

0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.680
<v Speaker 2>Is there a reason why EBM data wasn't obtained for

0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:05.400
<v Speaker 2>all of the days in the relevant period.

0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, A very good reason is it's very cross prohibitive. EBMs.

0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.120
<v Speaker 3>When they first came out a couple of years ago,

0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.960
<v Speaker 3>they were about seventeen hundred dollars for two hours. I

0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:18.920
<v Speaker 3>know that price has come down a fair bit, but

0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.600
<v Speaker 3>to get EBMs for a period every year, we'd be

0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.680
<v Speaker 3>talking well into six figures. And my boss isn't real

0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:26.240
<v Speaker 3>keen when I spend too much money.

0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.240
<v Speaker 1>Epping Stool also said.

0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.760
<v Speaker 3>Look, Professor Surrel likes to upsell us in a lot

0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:34.920
<v Speaker 3>of things. We've got to be careful with what we

0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.080
<v Speaker 3>tell him, and so just because we don't want the

0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.760
<v Speaker 3>evidence to be tainted, we give him very little instructions.

0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.600
<v Speaker 1>The trial continues in the Victorian Supreme Court, sitting at

0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.440
<v Speaker 1>more Well in the Latrobe Valley. You can follow live

0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.600
<v Speaker 1>coverage by our reporters Elie Dudley and John ferguson anytime

0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.079
<v Speaker 1>at the Australian dot Com dot Au