1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: It's Friday, May thirty, twenty twenty five. An extremist cleric 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: who preached that Jews were monsters thirsty for blood has 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: formally apologized and promised not to vilify Jews. But The 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Australian's reporting today the Sheikh last Friday prayed for God 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: to kill all the oppressors of Gaza. There's uproar and 7 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: more confusion about whether Donald Trump's tariffs will apply after 8 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: an American court said they were unlawful. You can read 9 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: what that means for Australian exporters whose world has been 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: turned upside down right now at the Australian dot com 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: do AU. Did Aaron Patterson really search the web for 12 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: information about death cap mushrooms? And did police miss a 13 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: crucial piece of evidence when searching her house? Today? Where 14 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: the defense lawyer is probing the police case against Patterson, 15 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: who's pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder and 16 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: one of attempted murder. We've used voice actors throughout this 17 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: episode to bring you the words aired in court. What 18 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: happened at Aaron Patterson's house when police showed up to 19 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: execute a search warrant, and wear's Patterson's missing phone. Those 20 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: are two of the big questions at the heart of 21 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: the so called mushroom murder trial, where Patterson is accused 22 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: of murdering three elderly relatives and attempting to murder a 23 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: fourth by deliberately feeding them beef wellington laced with deadly 24 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: death cap mushrooms. She's pleaded not guilty, and her defense 25 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: lawyer has told the jury the poisoning was a tragic 26 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: accident that even though she lied to police about whether 27 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: she'd ever foraged for mushrooms, that was a sign not 28 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: of guilt, but of panic at the catastrophe that was unfolding. 29 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: On Thursday, Aaron Patterson's lawyer, Colin Mandy Casey Cross examined 30 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: the lead homicide cop in the case, Detective Senior Constable 31 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: Stephen Eppingstall. The Crown has told the jury Patterson's main 32 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: mobile phone with her primary SIM card they're calling it 33 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: phone A, has never been recovered by police. The juries 34 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: heard that on five August twenty twenty three, as the 35 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: elderly lunch guests were critically ill in hospital or on 36 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: their way to the Morgue police showed up to search 37 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: Patterson's home. The Crown says it was during that search 38 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: that Patterson took her main sim out of phone A, 39 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: a Samsung Galaxy, and put it in a Nokia phone. 40 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: The Crown says she then surrendered a totally different device, 41 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: phone B, to the police when they asked for her phone. 42 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: Here's Colin Mandy Cross examining Cop Stephen epping Stall. We've 43 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: used voice actors. 44 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: Is it the case that you and miss Patterson had 45 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: a discussion about the Nokia mobile phone. 46 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 3: In the record of interview, she did mention that there 47 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 3: was a Nokia In. 48 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: The police interview, Patterson said this about the Nokia. It's 49 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: a really old Nokia that I've got for like, you know, 50 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: if you break your phone and you've got to send 51 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: it away for repairs, so it's this really old thing. 52 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: But you don't recall having seized that phone. 53 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 3: No, we definitely didn't seize the Nokia. 54 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: Because your case is that the Nokia came into use 55 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: after that time. Yes, sir, so it couldn't have been 56 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: seized because you would have had it. 57 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, Yeah. 58 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: Mandy showed epping staol a police photo from. 59 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: The Do you know what that black item is sitting 60 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: on the window sill? 61 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 3: No, I've got no idea, sir. 62 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: Can I suggest that is phone? A? In a case? 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: I don't think that's consistent with the phone, but it's 64 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: a matter for the jury. 65 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: I'd say, sir, you don't exclude that possibility. 66 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 3: If that was a phone, I would think we would 67 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 3: have seized it. 68 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: After the search. On August five, Eppingstall took Aaron Patterson 69 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: to warm Thaggy police station for an interview. The video 70 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 1: of that conversation was played to the jury earlier this week. 71 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: The Crown alleges that during that interview, Patterson gave police 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: the phone number not for her main phone, which they 73 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: say they've never found, but for a different device, phone B, 74 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: which the Crown says she had loaded with a SIM 75 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: card that she'd taken out of a Samsung tablet. 76 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: You knew that Aaron Patterson was utilizing the phone number 77 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: ending in seven eighty three prior to the execution of 78 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 2: the search warrant. Yes, that is correct, and you didn't 79 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: ask her about the fact of the seven eight three 80 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 2: mobile number in the record of interview. 81 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 3: No, I asked her for a phone number in the 82 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: record of interview, and I didn't realize that she hadn't 83 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 3: given me that number. I just wrote it down and 84 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: just moved past it. 85 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: She gave you the phone number of the phone she 86 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: surrendered to police earlier. 87 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, I just wrote it down and didn't give 88 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 3: it any more thought until later on. 89 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: Mandy put it to epping Stall that phone a was 90 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: at one point being used by Aaron Patterson's teenage son. 91 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: Epping Stall said he didn't know coming up. Did Aaron 92 00:05:38,480 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: Patterson really search the web for deathcat mushrooms. One of 93 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: the pieces of evidence the Crown has put before the 94 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: jury is web searches made by Aaron Patterson on her computer, 95 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: a Cooler Master brand, which police found in her home 96 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: on the top shelf of her son's bedroom cupboard. The 97 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: Crown showed the jury screenshots of a website called eye Naturalist, 98 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: where citizen scientists or real scientists can upload images of 99 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: and information about flora and fauna they've spotted in the wild. 100 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: The screenshots showed to the jury suggested searches had been 101 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: made on that computer for deathcap mushrooms, but Colin Mandy 102 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: k C for Aaron Patterson wanted to know if the 103 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: cops could actually prove that these web searches allegedly conducted 104 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: by Aaron Patterson in May twenty twenty two showed anything 105 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: important at all. Epping still agreed he had analyzed Patterson's 106 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: alleged web activity in December twenty twenty four, so nineteen 107 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: months after the searches. 108 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: Other than the fact this is a page with the 109 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: same name, same URL, same address, you don't have any 110 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 2: evidence as to what the landing page for this URL 111 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: was in May twenty twenty two. No, I don't, sir, 112 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: Or if it was this landing page in twenty twenty two, 113 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: whether any of the details contained on it were the 114 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: same then yes. 115 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: Mandy also asked Eppingstall why the police's mobile phone expert, 116 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: Dr Matthew Cerrell had not done a more detailed report 117 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: on some aspects of the evidence about where Patterson's phone 118 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: was allegedly pinging mobile phone towers. If you've been following 119 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: the trial, you might recall Doctor Currell told the jury 120 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: that Aaron Patterson's phone allegedly pinned mobile phone towers in 121 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: the area where deathcat mushrooms had recently been reported on 122 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: the Eye Naturalist website. Eppingstall said he was restricted by 123 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: costs and only did the most detailed search called an EBM, 124 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: for a limited number of days. 125 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: Is there a reason why EBM data wasn't obtained for 126 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: all of the days in the relevant period. 127 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, A very good reason is it's very cross prohibitive. EBMs. 128 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 3: When they first came out a couple of years ago, 129 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: they were about seventeen hundred dollars for two hours. I 130 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 3: know that price has come down a fair bit, but 131 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 3: to get EBMs for a period every year, we'd be 132 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 3: talking well into six figures. And my boss isn't real 133 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 3: keen when I spend too much money. 134 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: Epping Stool also said. 135 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: Look, Professor Surrel likes to upsell us in a lot 136 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 3: of things. We've got to be careful with what we 137 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 3: tell him, and so just because we don't want the 138 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: evidence to be tainted, we give him very little instructions. 139 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: The trial continues in the Victorian Supreme Court, sitting at 140 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: more Well in the Latrobe Valley. You can follow live 141 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: coverage by our reporters Elie Dudley and John ferguson anytime 142 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: at the Australian dot Com dot Au