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Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigel

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Speaker 1: people of the Uran Nation.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Real Story with Joe Hildebrand.

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Speaker 2: And it is World War three again again. It's all happening.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump is trying to stop Israel and Iran from

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Speaker 2: destroying each other. Iran is trying to blow Israel off

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Speaker 2: the face of the planet. Israel kind of got in

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Speaker 2: first and half blue Iran off the face of the planet. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: Russia and Ukraine are still fighting it out. China is

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Speaker 2: rising as a global superpower and just licking its lips. Hm,

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Speaker 2: maybe we invade Twine. We don't even know if we've

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Speaker 2: got a deal with the US over August. We don't

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Speaker 2: even know if we've got the US as our main

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Speaker 2: strategic ally anymore, although the UK and Kistarma somehow do

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Speaker 2: All this and more coming right up. Of course, all

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Speaker 2: news is local, and the real story is that Albow

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Speaker 2: missed out on his meeting with Donald Trump. He flew

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Speaker 2: all the way to Canada to the G seven meeting

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Speaker 2: for a meeting with Donald Trump, and then the night

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Speaker 2: before it's meant to happen, Old trumpy, old Orange guy,

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Speaker 2: Bad China backs out disappears as actually, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I am going to go and deal with this World

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Speaker 2: War III thing in the Middle East. So a lot

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Speaker 2: of people are trying to punish Albo for that. The

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Speaker 2: poor guy suffered enough frankly, as if it's his fault.

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Speaker 2: Do you think is Albo saying, hey, guys, you know,

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Speaker 2: would your mind just escalating the war a bit so

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Speaker 2: that you know, Trump can pull out of his meeting

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Speaker 2: with me, Like, how are people blaming Albow for this?

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Speaker 2: I just don't understand. It's obviously just a bit of

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Speaker 2: bad luck. The fact that he had secured the meeting

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Speaker 2: is a win, very strong. The fact that Australia is

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Speaker 2: not even a member of the G seven but is

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Speaker 2: still going there and getting an audience with the US president.

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Speaker 2: We nearly getting an audience with the US president. Australia

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Speaker 2: actually went as a guest of Canada, because of course

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Speaker 2: we all know that Canada is just Australia with snow,

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Speaker 2: and Albo crossed literally about as far as you can

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Speaker 2: pretty much go across the planet and ended up there

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Speaker 2: and ended up just going there to the other side

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Speaker 2: of the world for pretty much just no reason whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: You know, who is in the G seven Canada, So

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Speaker 2: why are they in it and why not? And also Italy?

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Speaker 2: What's Italy doing? I mean, love the joint big fan

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Speaker 2: of the Roman Empire. Let's face it, it's not what it was,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I think the fact that Albo got there,

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Speaker 2: got the meeting in the first place, is a win,

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Speaker 2: even if it was Clayton's meeting that actually never took place.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be speaking later on to an expert

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Speaker 2: about what all this means, incidentally, and whether or not

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Speaker 2: we truly are on the brink of World War three,

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Speaker 2: So stay tuned for that. But anyway, Donald Trump drops

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Speaker 2: everything he'd been told before he was even going to

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Speaker 2: the G seven. What are you doing going to the

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Speaker 2: G seven when there's this potential World War III thing

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Speaker 2: happening with Iran? You know, maybe maybe not on the

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Speaker 2: verge of developing nuclear weapons, maybe it already has them,

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Speaker 2: probably not, but you know, do you really want to

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Speaker 2: find that out when they launch it? And Donald Trump said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm still going to the G seven. Then, of course,

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Speaker 2: be Donald Trump. He gets to the G seven is

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Speaker 2: actually you know what, Yeah, I better go and do

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Speaker 2: this thing. And someone said, oh, Donald, you're going to

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Speaker 2: get a ceasefire, He goes, oh, no, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get much more than a ceasefire, much more than they've

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Speaker 2: going to stop the whole thing, going to make Iran surrender. Now,

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Speaker 2: I'm not convinced that Iran is going to agree to

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Speaker 2: a piece that is negotiated by a country that it

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Speaker 2: literally calls Satan and whose citizens begin public meetings by

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Speaker 2: chanting death to America. I'm not sure they're then going

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Speaker 2: to turn around and say, Okay, you know what, don't

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Speaker 2: you decide? Yeah, we'll do whatever you say, Satan. I

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Speaker 2: think could be a bit more like Jesus in the desert.

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Speaker 2: Whether they'd get behind me Satan. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: know what happens after that. So they're still going hard

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Speaker 2: at each other. Israel needs the US to give it

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Speaker 2: or use some of its big bunker busting bombs. So

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Speaker 2: the US has got these missiles that can smash deep

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Speaker 2: into the ground, deep underground where the Uranians have their

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Speaker 2: uranium or their potential nuclear missiles, their nuclear programs, their

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Speaker 2: little underground labs. It's all very James Bond. That is

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Speaker 2: why Israel wants to bring the US into the war.

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Speaker 2: Or at least get a hold of the missiles. Presumably

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Speaker 2: the missiles are subject to some pretty heavy intellectual property right,

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Speaker 2: so the Americans would probably have to be the ones

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Speaker 2: that actually use those missiles, and that would mean America

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Speaker 2: actually firing on Iran. What happens then, well, possibly nothing,

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Speaker 2: Possibly that's all she wrote. Because nobody likes Iran. Iran sucks,

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Speaker 2: or rather, the Runan regime sucks. So Iran used to

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Speaker 2: be in an alliance with Syria and Russia. Now, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you guys have been following the news

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Speaker 2: much recently, but Syria ain't no more that Asad regime

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Speaker 2: has fallen, Syria has been overtaken by all these rebels,

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Speaker 2: and it's fair to say that it's alliance with Arad

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Speaker 2: is no longer a going concern, should we say it's

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Speaker 2: yet to be finalized? Still got Russia, but again, I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure if you've been following the news recently. Bit

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Speaker 2: Russia's kind of got a bit on its plate. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of got another war that it's embroiled in, and

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Speaker 2: it's not doing as well as it will like, and

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Speaker 2: it certainly doesn't have too many spare soldiers or spare

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Speaker 2: equipment to be handbailling. Iran's why and of course that

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Speaker 2: would bring it into conflict with the US, which it

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Speaker 2: probably doesn't want. But what about all the other Golf states,

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Speaker 2: all the other Arab states. Surely they wouldn't want America

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Speaker 2: wading in again and getting embroiled in another war like

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Speaker 2: they did in Iraq Afghanistan. Well, see, they don't like

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Speaker 2: Iran either. Nobody likes Iran. You know who else doesn't

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Speaker 2: like See the Iranas Shiite Muslim and the rest of

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Speaker 2: the Gulf states are Sunni Muslim, And you know, they

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Speaker 2: could get pretty touchy about that. That's kind of when

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Speaker 2: people start to die, get beheaded, you know, burned alive,

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Speaker 2: you know, stoned to death, you know, mass public hangings,

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, that's what you know, their theological

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Speaker 2: arguments can quickly take a turn for the worse. So

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Speaker 2: they don't like Iran either. And the other group of

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Speaker 2: people who don't like Iran is Iranians. The Iranians hate

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Speaker 2: the regime. That's why they had a revolution there during

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Speaker 2: the Arab Spring in two thousand and nine. And of

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Speaker 2: course it was only the incredibly brutal repression of those

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Speaker 2: people who protested that eventually forced them into submission, forced

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Speaker 2: a lot of them to flee the country. I actually

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Speaker 2: know someone who fled Iran after the two thousand and

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Speaker 2: nine attempted revolution, if you want. And now that Israel

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Speaker 2: has basically wiped out almost all of Iran's military leadership,

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Speaker 2: maybe another revolutions on the cards. So no one is

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Speaker 2: there for Iran. Russia is it's only ally Russia's busy

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Speaker 2: invading Ukraine. The Gulf states around it or hate it

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Speaker 2: because it's the wrong religion. And they're not just the

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Speaker 2: wrong religion, but they are the most active, repressive, proselytizers

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Speaker 2: and enforces of the wrong religion, the Iranian's own people.

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Speaker 2: There's no support for the regime among the common people

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Speaker 2: in Iran. They've risen up before, maybe they will again.

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Speaker 2: And Israel, which is that little country that keeps bombing

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Speaker 2: the Jesus out of Iran, it don't like it much either.

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Speaker 2: So I actually reckon that this little World War three

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Speaker 2: could be over quite quickly, with Iran basically running away

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Speaker 2: with its tail between its legs. This could actually be

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Speaker 2: you know, fairly, if you know, if America gets involved, especially,

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Speaker 2: it could be a fairly kind of, you know, all

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Speaker 2: over red rover type of affair. But that's the good news.

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Speaker 2: The bad news is that World War three is still coming,

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Speaker 2: possibly via China, possibly via Russia. And how do I

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Speaker 2: know this well, because we are now coming to what

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Speaker 2: seems to be the end of what is probably the

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Speaker 2: longest stretch of global peace time in all of hu

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Speaker 2: human history. They call the period since World War Two

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Speaker 2: the long Peace. And that's because World War II was

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Speaker 2: so utterly horrific, the worst conflict, the worst slaughter, the

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Speaker 2: worst genocide the world has ever ever seen, that we

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Speaker 2: put up all these we put up all these organizations

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Speaker 2: to stop it from happening again. We established the United Nations,

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Speaker 2: we established NATO, We established all these rules, all these blocks,

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Speaker 2: all these treaties in order to stop a massive global

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Speaker 2: conflict from ever happening again. Yes, there have been little

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Speaker 2: flow ups. There was Vietnam, there was a couple of

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Speaker 2: golf wars, a bit of Somalia, a bit of Eastern Europe.

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Speaker 2: But by and large, there has not been a major

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Speaker 2: war since then, especially not involving superpowers fighting each other.

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Speaker 2: And that is the exception, that is this exception that

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Speaker 2: proved the rules all these people generations of people. Now

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Speaker 2: we had a generation of people who said, actually, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to go on in Vietnam. That would

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Speaker 2: have been unthinkable the generation earlier. So all these people,

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Speaker 2: people like me who have lived never having known war,

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Speaker 2: never having to worry about war. This just reminds us

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Speaker 2: that war is actually the norm for humankind, and that

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Speaker 2: is the terrifying thing about us, That war, not peace

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Speaker 2: is the default position of people of the human race,

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Speaker 2: and that is what we are seeing right now, and

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Speaker 2: that is why we always have to be ultra careful

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Speaker 2: to try and nip it in the bud. As I

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Speaker 2: mentioned earlier in the show, we are on the brink

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Speaker 2: of World War three. So what does this mean for

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Speaker 2: the average Australian. Well, we're going to find out what

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Speaker 2: Australia thinks of this whole new foreign policy global landscape

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Speaker 2: that we've found ourselves in. From the wildness and the

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Speaker 2: unpredictability of Donald Trump is the Orcus agreement our security

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Speaker 2: packed with the United States and the United Kingdom in peril.

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Speaker 2: What's going to happen with Iran and Israel. Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: has just had to pull out of the G seven

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Speaker 2: to go and fix that mess or is he going

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Speaker 2: to just make a new one. Well, to answer all

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Speaker 2: these questions and more, I'm joined by a very eminent guest.

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Speaker 2: His name is Ryan Neelm. He is the director of

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Speaker 2: the Public Opinion and Foreign Policy Program at the Loewe Institute,

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Speaker 2: which is the premiere international relations think tank in Australia.

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Speaker 2: He's a former diplomat himself of fourteen years experience. He

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Speaker 2: just came back as Deputy Consul General of Hong Kong

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Speaker 2: and he joins me right here, Ryan, Welcome to the

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Speaker 2: real story.

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Speaker 1: How are you so good to be with you? Jose

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: It's so good to have you. Ryan also set up

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Speaker 2: my sister with her husband, so I feel like he's

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Speaker 2: a man of impeccable taste now impeccable judgment. But look,

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Speaker 2: thanks so much. You are the author of the annual

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Speaker 2: Lowi Pole, or the guy pulling it all together. And

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Speaker 2: this is this huge deep dive into what Australia thinks

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Speaker 2: about kind of everything, but especially what's happening in the

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Speaker 2: world around us. What is going on? Should we be

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Speaker 2: in fear of our lives and diving into the backyard bunker.

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Speaker 2: The thing that really stood out to me is that

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Speaker 2: the faith in America and faith in the US under

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump doing the right thing globally has completely collapsed,

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Speaker 2: hasn't it.

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Speaker 1: That's right, it's one of the more significant changes we've seen.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing this pole for twenty one years now, Joe,

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Speaker 1: and over that time we've seen a few big shifts.

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Speaker 1: One of them is attitudes towards China, which I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about in a minute, But this year, trust

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Speaker 1: in the United States to do the right thing in

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Speaker 1: the world has dropped by twenty points since last year. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the change with Donald Trump in the White House has

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Speaker 1: had a big effect on how Australians view their key

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Speaker 1: security ally, and when we ask about the specific policies

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Speaker 1: that Donald Trump has brought in in this first one

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Speaker 1: hundred days in office. This pole was taken in March.

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Speaker 1: Just for context, we've seen high levels of disapproval across

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Speaker 1: the board, from his use of tariffs, his wish to

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Speaker 1: acquire Greenland.

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Speaker 2: I forgot about that, Like he's done so much crazy

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Speaker 2: stuff since then that you forget that.

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Speaker 1: Well, he hasn't given that up either, And also I

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Speaker 1: mean his attempts to negotiate with Vladimir Putin on the

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Speaker 1: future of Ukraine his cuts the USA. Australians across the

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Speaker 1: board have rejected these policies, and I think it speaks

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Speaker 1: to the instincts of Australians that we've seen over twenty

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Speaker 1: one years in this poll, where we're internationalists. We want

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Speaker 1: to see a rules based system constraining great powers and

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Speaker 1: allowing for open trade, and we buy and large want

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Speaker 1: to want an ally that is present in the region

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Speaker 1: and looking out for the stability of the region.

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Speaker 2: And this is the other interesting thing about it, because

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Speaker 2: it's not that Australians are turning away from America and

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Speaker 2: saying all right, well we've got to, you know, look

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Speaker 2: to China now to protect us or some other big

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Speaker 2: regional power astrants. Overwhelmingly want America to be our number

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Speaker 2: one allie. That's something like eighty percent. That's four out

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Speaker 2: of five Australians consistently say America should be our best friend.

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Speaker 2: And yet I think the figure was something like twenty seven.

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Speaker 2: Only twenty seven percent of people actually think that America

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Speaker 2: will do the right thing in the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thirty six percent of Australian say they trust the

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Speaker 1: US to do the right thing in the world. But

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Speaker 1: you're right, eighty percent continue to see the Alliance as

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Speaker 1: important to our security. So this is one of the

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Speaker 1: fascinating things that the fact that trust has really fallen

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Speaker 1: off a cliff, but the sense that the Alliance is

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Speaker 1: important to our security has not really changed substantially since

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Speaker 1: last year. So it I mean, I think it actually

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Speaker 1: speaks to something that people don't have to give Australians

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Speaker 1: credit for, is that people can hold two things in

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Speaker 1: their minds at the same time. They can dislike the

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Speaker 1: direction that Donald Trump is taking our major security partner,

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Speaker 1: but they can also be pragmatic and think that, well,

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Speaker 1: we need the US in certain respects as well. And

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Speaker 1: one of those reasons, I think is you see continued

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Speaker 1: distrust of our major trading part China, especially after the

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Speaker 1: last few years where we've had a serious diplomatic rupture

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Speaker 1: with China. That things are on a more even keel now,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily not necessarily stable, but stabilizing, as the government says.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's one of the contributing factors why

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Speaker 1: people still have this sense that you know, of insecurity

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Speaker 1: and that we actually need an ally like the United States.

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Speaker 2: And it's such a shame, isn't Because there was this sense,

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Speaker 2: there was this almost an assumption, you know, you could

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Speaker 2: talk about your know, Francis Fukuiama in the end of

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Speaker 2: History or whatever, but there was an assumption that China

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Speaker 2: would inevitably open up, it would liberalize economically, and then

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Speaker 2: it would inevitably liberalize politically and just gradually open up.

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Speaker 2: And the former kind of happened. But then Jijingping comes

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Speaker 2: to power, and suddenly it's going in the other direction.

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Speaker 2: It's becoming more nationalist, more aggressive, and you're seeing that

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Speaker 2: the number of Australians who have that positive view of

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Speaker 2: China come down as a result. Obviously absolutely. How worried

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Speaker 2: are you as someone who has been on the front

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Speaker 2: line in that region, As I said, you were a

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Speaker 2: senior diplomat in Hong Kong until recently. How do you

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Speaker 2: see that playing out? Because I think, and again I

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Speaker 2: don't want to get too sort of high brower, esoteric,

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Speaker 2: but there's you know a lot of people have likened

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Speaker 2: the geopolitical kind of chessboard, if you like, to being

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Speaker 2: quite similar before the outbreak of World War One, where

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Speaker 2: you've got you know, an end of sort of bipolarity.

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Speaker 2: You've got a great power seemingly on the decline in

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Speaker 2: the form of the US or you know, the UK

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Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, and then you've got you know, emerging

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Speaker 2: power that thinks, hang on a minute, I haven't got

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Speaker 2: my fair share. So China is a bit like Germany saying,

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Speaker 2: hang on, you guys have been taking all the goodies.

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Speaker 2: It's time for us to It's time for us to

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Speaker 2: stake our sort of claim on the globe. Is that

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Speaker 2: too alarmist? Are you more?

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Speaker 1: I think, like with the US, we also need to

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Speaker 1: be able to hold a few things in our minds

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Speaker 1: at the same time. When it comes with China, one

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Speaker 1: of those is that there are good reasons to be

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Speaker 1: concerned about the way China is building up its military.

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Speaker 1: It hasn't really given clarity to other countries in the

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Speaker 1: region about what its intentions are. It's expressed clear designs

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Speaker 1: to retake Taiwan if forced by necessary. It hasn't ruled

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Speaker 1: out the use of force. It hasn't said that it

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Speaker 1: will do that either. We should be clear on that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there are well documented human rights concerns

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Speaker 1: in China's They wielded their economic might as well against Australia.

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Speaker 1: We've seen that very clearly in the past few years.

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Speaker 1: So all of those are good reasons for concern and

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Speaker 1: for and to be wary of China, which I think

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Speaker 1: shows very clearly in our polling figures. Here we see

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Speaker 1: only twenty percent of Australians trust China to act responsibly

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Speaker 1: compared to thirty six percent of the US. Neither are

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Speaker 1: good figures, but less trust China.

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Speaker 2: Just quickly the figure you mentioned the US. I mean

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Speaker 2: more Australians think that Indonesia will behave more responsibly on

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Speaker 2: the world stage than the US will, which you know,

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Speaker 2: when you consider the recent history of that country and

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Speaker 2: the fact that you've got a former military hard man

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Speaker 2: now is the president who the question will track record

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Speaker 2: that speaks volumes about how worried people are about the

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Speaker 2: US and how low it's fallen in people's confidence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I mean I have a sort of different

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Speaker 1: perspective on Indonesia. I think, if anything, it's surprising that

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Speaker 1: we haven't been able to grow closer to Indonesia given

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Speaker 1: its importance. It's weight that it's a country of I

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Speaker 1: think it's two hundred and fifty million people in our region,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be one of the major economies, and

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Speaker 1: we actually haven't managed over decades of foreign policy to

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Speaker 1: become a closer partner with Indonesia, and part of that

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Speaker 1: I think speaks to a difference in perceived values and

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Speaker 1: a whole range of issues that have come up over

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Speaker 1: the course of our relationship history. But look, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just returning to China, I think the other realities that

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Speaker 1: we need to bear in mind, alongside the fact that

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Speaker 1: it is building up its military, that it is saying

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Speaker 1: that it wants to retake Taiwan eventually, it remains our

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Speaker 1: largest trading partner, and that's the fact that we've tried

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Speaker 1: to change. We've tried to diversify, and we haven't been

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Speaker 1: able to do that just because of the weight of

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Speaker 1: China's economy and what we sell to the world goes

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Speaker 1: predominantly to China. The other aspect is there is not

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Speaker 1: a global issue that you can solve without China. So

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Speaker 1: whether it's climate change, preventing the next pandemic, you know,

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Speaker 1: world War three, preventing World War three, that's definitely they're

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Speaker 1: right in the center of that. So I think, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we need to be able to balance all of these things,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's what the government is trying to do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people will have different perspectives on how effective

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Speaker 1: they are at that, but we need to we need

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Speaker 1: to recognize that China is important, it has it behaves

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Speaker 1: in a way that concerns us in many respects, but

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Speaker 1: that we need to have a relationship with China in

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Speaker 1: order to manage all of those interests.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And again, as a very boring sort

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Speaker 2: of pragmatist, I'm one of those people who says we

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Speaker 2: need to keep a lot of balls in the air.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, we did walk into gum. There's

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Speaker 2: all the people say, we just yell at China or

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Speaker 2: yell at China and don't hate them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 1: The other thing, I'm like, Donald.

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Speaker 2: Trump is an idiot. It's like, I'm not sure that's

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Speaker 2: going to work. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean. The other thing that that perhaps might be

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Speaker 1: a bit overblown from time to time is the perception

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Speaker 1: that China is out to get us. You know that

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Speaker 1: we did see China circumnavigate Australia before the last election.

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Speaker 1: That's clearly a sign that they are now a power

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Speaker 1: that can then go wherever they like in the world,

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Speaker 1: that they have the ability to project force outside of

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Speaker 1: their region. They're trying to prove that. But that does

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Speaker 1: not mean that China would find it desirable or even

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Speaker 1: practicable to invade Australia or take over Australia, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that sometimes gets far overblown in how we

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Speaker 1: look at China. What what China is ultimately trying to

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Speaker 1: do is prove that it is the dominant power in

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Speaker 1: the region. It wants to push the US as far

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Speaker 1: out of its its doorstep as it's as it can,

380
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Speaker 1: and once countries like Australia to event to essentially play

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Speaker 1: vassal states to its interests. It doesn't want to be

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Speaker 1: opposed on what it sees as its core interest including Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: So that's that those are the sort of I think

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Speaker 1: nuances that that are that are important to grasp with

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Speaker 1: China's position.

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Speaker 2: And so where do you see this? And I guess

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Speaker 2: we'll get into August and others very shortly, but where

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Speaker 2: do you where do you see it? Sort of any

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Speaker 2: is China's rise inevitable or is China possibly going to

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Speaker 2: collapse under the weight of its own kind of demographics?

391
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Speaker 2: It's going to have an aging population, which we're all

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Speaker 2: sort of struggling to come to terms with. It's going

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Speaker 2: to have to pay for what happens when Jijingping He's

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Speaker 2: got dictated for life, obviously, but what happens when he dies?

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Speaker 2: What you know, does the next guy? Is the next

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Speaker 2: guy inevitably going to be another kind of party hard

397
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Speaker 2: man in that mold? Or could he be a liberalizer?

398
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Speaker 2: Could she be a liberalizer? Maybe the next Susan Lay

399
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Speaker 2: of China?

400
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Speaker 1: Could she be the liberal I think that boat has sailed. No,

401
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Speaker 1: I mean, look on China's rise. I okay, let's let's

402
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Speaker 1: bring it back to the sort of the what we

403
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Speaker 1: found in the pole what Australians think about China's rise,

404
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Speaker 1: which is really interesting. Fifty six percent of Australians think

405
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Speaker 1: that China will be the most powerful country in the

406
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Speaker 1: world in ten years time. That's double the figure, more

407
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Speaker 1: than double the figure that think the US will remain

408
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Speaker 1: the most powerful country.

409
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Speaker 2: In the world.

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Speaker 1: So in the minds of over half of the population,

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Speaker 1: that is essentially already what they're expecting, that China will

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Speaker 1: be the dominant country in the world. There's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of skepticism or commentary about China's demographic trends, it's

414
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Speaker 1: domestic challenges, it's property market, it's it's economic it's slow

415
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Speaker 1: down that it hasn't been able to maintain its high

416
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Speaker 1: growth rates as in the past. But I think there's

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Speaker 1: still a lot of a lot of staying power when

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Speaker 1: it comes to China, and it's and it's huge population,

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Speaker 1: it's resolve to grow its power and it's and its economy.

420
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Speaker 1: I mean, it can do things because it's an autocratic state.

421
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Speaker 1: It can simply make things happen in a way that

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Speaker 1: democracy is like Australia and the other states cars.

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Speaker 2: Well India as well. If you look at India, India

424
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Speaker 2: is a much more complicated country because it is democratic

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Speaker 2: and because you can't just sort of, you know, flood

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Speaker 2: a village of two hundred thousand people to build a

427
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Speaker 2: new down if you want to or whatever. So, I mean,

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Speaker 2: one thing that's interesting is that this poll shows it,

429
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Speaker 2: and it shows it every year, and I'm always impressed,

430
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Speaker 2: but shows that Australians are pretty switched on, you know,

431
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Speaker 2: So I think a lot of people would I think

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Speaker 2: Australians are all just sort of you know.

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00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: Attached from the world.

434
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: In the world. You know, I'm a sex overpaid and

435
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 2: over here. You know, we grew here, you flew here,

436
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 2: go back to where you came from. In fact, it

437
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: shows Australians obviously really thinking about this stuff, and it

438
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 2: seems to be getting it right, like they seem to

439
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: be like what Australians think seems to be what I think.

440
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: What you presumably for.

441
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: The most part, I think pretty yeah.

442
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: Spot yeah. So this brings us to Orcus, which obviously

443
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 2: everyone has been trying to take a crap on from

444
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: great height. But I'm a supporter of ucas. What do

445
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: the average Australians think of Aucus? What are they?

446
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 1: Well, it's a pretty positive And actually I find this

447
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: interesting in that it's remained positive since the deal was

448
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: announced four years ago. This is the deal for.

449
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: That four Corners episode.

450
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: Obviously that was that had some pretty serious concerns raised

451
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: about UCUST, But I mean, this is the deal we're

452
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: talking about. Just to be clear, what the question we

453
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: ask is do you favor or or not the acquisition

454
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: of nuclear powered submarines? We didn't ask about UCUST per se,

455
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: And just that that the core of that deal is

456
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: that the US is going to help us get nuclear

457
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: powered submarines in the future and several decades time. Yeah, yeah,

458
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: it's a long timeline at a lot of large costs.

459
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: Two thirds of the public just on that central question

460
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: say yes, they favor it, and that hasn't really moved

461
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: in a substantial way since four years ago. And that's

462
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: despite the fact that you've had, you know, former Prime

463
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: Ministers Paul Eating Malcolm Turnbull come out very strongly against Aucus.

464
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: You've had a whole You've had concerns about what is

465
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: having these submarines mean for our ability to say no

466
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: to the United States, And what does it mean for

467
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: the cost because it's three hundred and sixty billion is

468
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: the estimate over thirty years, what does that mean for

469
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: the tradeoffs on other priorities health and education for instance.

470
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: So these are the questions that we're grappling with. I

471
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 1: think there's a lot more debate to be run on

472
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: orcus people haven't really had to contend with those tradeoffs particularly,

473
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: and I think that's where we might start to see

474
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: the rub come for August. But at the when you

475
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: ask people about the capability, I think there's an instinctive

476
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: well sure, I mean, I think it's better to have

477
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: a more formidable defense deterrent. But then how it's actually

478
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: going to play out, how we're going to make it happen,

479
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: is the questions that are yet unanswered.

480
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: Right or whether the US because there's a clause that

481
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: the US only gives us the submarines if it has

482
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: enough that are surplus to its own requirement.

483
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: And there's serious concerns about its ability to sustain its

484
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: own defense.

485
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 2: And my feeling is, and again, tell me if I'm wrong,

486
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 2: but my feeling is, in fact, the submarines are just

487
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: a kind of incredibly expensive mcguffin. The point of aucast

488
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily getting the nuclear submarines and having that capability,

489
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 2: although that would also obviously be welcome, but the fact

490
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: that it binds the US's strategic interests and Australia's strategic

491
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: interest inextricably together. So you know, we've already got asis

492
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 2: obviously our oldest treaty. But yeah, this basically means we

493
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: are essentially one and the same. Yeah.

494
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty observation, Joe. I mean, there

495
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: are people on both sides who advocate for AUCUST because

496
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: of that. There are I think it was Kurt Campbell

497
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: in the Biden administration, a very senior official who actually

498
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: made comments of that effect. When he was asked about UCAS,

499
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: he said that it is essentially about binding Australia into

500
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: US strategy in the region. And there are many people

501
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: that see UCUS as a vehicle to bind the US

502
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: to the region in a way that is not certain

503
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: under Donald Trump, mind you. So yeah, I think that's

504
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: one reason that some people advocate for AUCUST. But the

505
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: other thing that's happening now is this review that the

506
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: Pentagon is doing into August. And so I mean, in

507
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: the one sense you're getting you've got some people trying

508
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: to some leaders trying to maintain this common message of

509
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: deterrence US and Australia and UK in it together against

510
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: Chinese aggression. The other aspect of it is you've got

511
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: mixed signals coming out of the White House now and

512
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: we don't know where it's going to land.

513
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: And obviously, unfortunately the President Donald Trump had to leave

514
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: G seven before his scheduled meeting with Anthony Albanezi, but

515
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: he did have time to have a meeting with Keys Starmer.

516
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: Because of course, there is another partner in UCUS, and

517
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: that's the UK and Starmer said the deal is still on,

518
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: we are still proceeding. Does that mean presumably there can

519
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 2: be no UCUS. So if it's if is if the

520
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 2: US is proceeding with I think Donald Trump just sort

521
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: of nodded along. He didn't Presumably Trump's the sort of

522
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: person who would not allow someone to say something they

523
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: didn't like. But presumably if the UK is saying ORCUS

524
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: is still on, and if it's still on for them,

525
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: then surely it's still on for us. And maybe this

526
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: review is just a bit of a bargaining chip that

527
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: Donald Trump will use to try to get us to

528
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: ratchet up our defense spending.

529
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: Is potentially I mean, there's a number of ways this

530
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: could go. I mean, I wouldn't say it's a that

531
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: is definitive. And Donald Trump sort of nodding along with

532
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: the UK saying something, but Trump not he's saying something.

533
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: I mean. I think the first time Trump was asked

534
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: about aucust this this term, he said, what, I'm sorry.

535
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: What's.

536
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: Of it? I don't know if.

537
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: I think if you have to say that you've heard

538
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: of something, chances out you probably haven't.

539
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: But but I but I think you know there's a

540
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: number of ways this could play out, and one of

541
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: them is that that Trump turns around and says, look,

542
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: you know, my my predecessor, Joe Biden made this terrible deal,

543
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: and I'm going to make it better by asking the

544
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: Aussies to pay.

545
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: More or you know, I'm the greatest I've got to be.

546
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: Exactly, and then just rebranded and asked for a bit

547
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: more money. Or you know, it could go a number

548
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: of ways, or they could actually find that And this

549
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: is the more optimistic, hopeful path for US, is that

550
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: that we succeed in convincing the US of the benefits

551
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: of August to the US, I mean, we're paying into

552
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: their industrial base so they can make more submarines. Yeah,

553
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,239
Speaker 1: that's right. And you know, part of the rationale for this,

554
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: presumably is that we share that deterrence project of deterring

555
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: Chinese Darwin. It's burden sharing, you know. So that's the idea. So,

556
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: I mean, the idea that this is just that we're

557
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: just kind of freeloaders on the US. I think Orcus

558
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,719
Speaker 1: is a strong counterpoint to that.

559
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I couldn't agree mine, as I'm fond of saying,

560
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: or as I do say Australia is the only ally

561
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: that has been with the US in every single of

562
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: its foreign expeditions, however questionable. The French didn't go with

563
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: them to Iraq, the British didn't go with them to Vietnam.

564
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: We did. In both cases we paid for our loyalty,

565
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: you know, we showed our loyalty with blood. So that's

566
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: surely got to be I think we've proved ourselves that

567
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: we're not just riding on the coattails of.

568
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: I agree with you, but I don't think that counts

569
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: for much with Trump. He's pretty values free, and I

570
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: don't think arguments of loyalty and history count for much.

571
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: It's more what are you going to deliver for him

572
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: in that time? And how are you going to make

573
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: him look good?

574
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: So just so we don't end on everyone's and I agree,

575
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: and I completely agree with you, and even if I didn't,

576
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: be irrelevant because you're much more expert on these matters

577
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: than I am. But Candy scaffolding around Donald Trump can

578
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: the sort of institutional congressional support for Australia in the US.

579
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: Surely that will sort of outlast him and ameliorate some

580
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: of his worst impulses. I know that Donald Trump is

581
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: draining the swamp and he's not listening to anyone who

582
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: is in fully maga or whatever. But he can only

583
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: be there for another three and a half years, assuming

584
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: the conspiracy theorists are wrong and he doesn't appoint himself Jijingping.

585
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: Surely things sort of return to normal and August, being

586
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: such a long term agreement, will sort of outlast Donald Trump.

587
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: Or could he just tear it all up? What's the

588
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: potential for his you know, what's what's the most amount

589
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: of damage you could do?

590
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: So the most amount of damages, he could tear it

591
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: all up, and he could walk away from from alliances

592
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: in the Pacific. We've seen him essentially turn his back

593
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: on the alliance the NATO Alliance of the Europe has

594
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: said in as many words as you know, if NATO

595
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: allies don't, yeah, we're not going to come to unless

596
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: you pay your way. So that's that's the caveat. And

597
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: actually they're making steps to do that. But he's clearly

598
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: not he's not stariid or it doesn't have a sense

599
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: that alliances are important for the US unless they deliver

600
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: for it in a very clear way. And I think

601
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario is that he actually starts to say, well, look,

602
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: I mean, Asia's pretty far away, and China is a

603
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: strong power. He's got a certain admiration for strong men,

604
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: and and you know, there are spheres of influence here,

605
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: and we you know, why do we need to spend

606
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: all this US treasure and blood on maintaining a presence

607
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: in Asia and balancing China. Why don't we kind of

608
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: pull back closer to home now. I should say, none

609
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: of the indications from the Trump administration so far show

610
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: that it's going to do that. His Defense secretary was

611
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: actually pretty clear that that the administration sees this region

612
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: as a priority. Yet we are seeing Trump then kind

613
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: of look to Iran. You know, he's looking to Gaza.

614
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: He's got all these other things happening, and we've seen

615
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: it before. Trump sort of looks at the next thing,

616
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: or something comes up and it catches.

617
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: Up with him, doesn't it Either either it proves his

618
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: miracle cure doesn't work, or he gets sort of brought

619
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: back to some kind of bandwidth of normality, maybe on

620
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: the very fringes of normality, but something that isn't quite catastrophic.

621
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think there's good reasons to be

622
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: sort of sober about what the you know, there are

623
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: there are very bad scenarios that could play out, but

624
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: you know, the likelihood of those happening is not necessarily high.

625
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: But we have to be vigilant, especially when it comes

626
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: to what Trump is doing on global institution. So when

627
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: we talk about trade, well, trade, he's taking a sledge hammer.

628
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: So the system that has made us Raelia rich, essentially

629
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: the idea that you have open rules based trade where

630
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: countries aren't putting tariffs on each other. He's actually basically

631
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: revolution I completely changed that and up end of that

632
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: system in a matter of months, and we have to

633
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: be worried about that. The other thing is we have

634
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: to be worried about what he says about taking Greenland,

635
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: annexing the Panama Canal, you know, making Canada the fifty

636
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: first stake. You might it's kind of tempting to laugh

637
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: it off, right, but you know, this is the supposed

638
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: leader of the free world saying that he threatening the

639
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: use of force to take territory from other countries. We

640
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: have not seen that since World War II. You know,

641
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: a major power like the United States saying that it

642
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: would do that and to treaty allies no less so

643
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: there are norms that are at stake that have actually

644
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: held the world together and kept you know, large scale.

645
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: To come back to your starting point, world War three

646
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: from happening, and those right now are very much under

647
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: assault from all sides. Go.

648
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: So world War three is happening.

649
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I helped you with the mission of

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00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 1: stopping people from jumping out the windows.

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00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: Well we'll just mean they. I'll just have to tune

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00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: in next week to find out whether or well still here,

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00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: Ryan Neil, thank you so much for joining us on

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00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 2: the real estate. Absolute pleasure.

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00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: Thanks so much.

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00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: Chair cheers well on that cheery note. That's all we

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00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 2: have time for this week, and if there is still

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00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: a world left in which we are all alive, we

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00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: will see you next week. In the meantime, you can

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00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: flick us an email at the Real Story at Novapodcasts

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00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 2: dot com dot au. You can hit me up on Insta,

662
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: Joe Underscore Hildebrand, slide into my DM chat, or you

663
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: can just like everything I post, which is not very much,

664
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: but it's quality, not quantity. It's not what you've got,

665
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: it's anyway. You can also cash my columns every Monday

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00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 2: and Saturday in the various News Corp mast heads around

667
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: the country. And of course you can leave us a

668
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 2: review or you can leave us a five star rating

669
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: on the podcast provider of your choice. Till then see

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00:35:59,080 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: you next week.

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Speaker 1: The Pissed Pity