WEBVTT - Inside Cocaine Inc.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the phenomenal wealth generated in places of phenomenal poverty

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<v Speaker 1>leads to these grotesque situations where nothing's impossible, anything can

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<v Speaker 1>be bought, anybody can be brought.

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<v Speaker 2>She expects him to say, oh, yeah, yeah, drugs bad,

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<v Speaker 2>don't do it, and he's like, nah, I had a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of fun.

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<v Speaker 1>What we've got now is a giant version of the

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<v Speaker 1>American prohibition experiment of the nineteen twenties, which created the

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<v Speaker 1>modern mafia. I'm Andrew rule is his love and crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>Today we have the pleasure and the privilege of talking

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<v Speaker 1>to my longtime colleague Stephen Drill. Stephen, I've been away

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<v Speaker 1>researching various things out of the way places overseas, such

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<v Speaker 1>as Albania.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good place to go where there are.

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<v Speaker 1>Many large, shiny mercedes.

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<v Speaker 2>And very wealthy people there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I would think so poverty cheek by jail with wealth.

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<v Speaker 2>What have you said previously? Behind every fortune is a crime?

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't make that up. That was somebody else's claims.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, it's from literature. It has been said before,

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<v Speaker 1>behind every great fortune, it's a crime. And I suspect

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<v Speaker 1>that in some countries. You see that in every glossy

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<v Speaker 1>hotel or every casino casino. I think so. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's true. But while I've been over there, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just basically hanging around and watching, You've been here busy

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<v Speaker 1>doing stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been chipping away for the last twelve months on a.

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<v Speaker 1>Podcast, chipping away for twelve months, and this podcast is

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<v Speaker 1>about cocaine.

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<v Speaker 2>It is about cocaine. I've teamed up with two reporters

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<v Speaker 2>from the Time, so the Times and the Sunday Times.

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<v Speaker 2>They're very separate newspapers, even though they're in the same

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<v Speaker 2>building on the same floor. It's a law in the

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<v Speaker 2>UK that can't be edited by the same people. So

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<v Speaker 2>Times in Sunday Times very pre eminent publications, and we've

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<v Speaker 2>all worked together. We've gone to six countries, traveled fifty

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<v Speaker 2>thousand kilometers to look at the aids of the cocaine trade.

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<v Speaker 2>We've gone from Colombia where it's grown, all the way

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<v Speaker 2>over to England where we've spoken to people who've been

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<v Speaker 2>caught in the crossfire, and we've gone to Jubai, and

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<v Speaker 2>then we've actually ended up right back here in Australia

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<v Speaker 2>to where the money is allegedly launded.

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<v Speaker 1>And even on a global scale. Australia's part in this

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<v Speaker 1>is significant? Is that true?

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<v Speaker 2>Australia's part is extremely significant in this, Andrew.

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<v Speaker 1>You're not just exaggerating relevant, No, I'm not.

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<v Speaker 2>No, No, actually no, I genuinely am not. Like, it's

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<v Speaker 2>surprising how important Australia has become in the global cocaine trade.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's because of one thing.

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<v Speaker 1>We pay too much for it, pay way too much

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<v Speaker 1>over it.

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<v Speaker 2>And not only do we pay too much for it,

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<v Speaker 2>we love paying too much for it. People here are like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what, I've got some coke. I've got a

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<v Speaker 2>bag of coke on. I'm posh because I can afford

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<v Speaker 2>to go and spend three hundred dollars to put this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff up my nose. Okay, So excellent marketing it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Isn't it to waste money? I can afford to waste money.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's it's like buying a Lamborghini.

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<v Speaker 1>Or lighting your cigar with a one hundred dollar note.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much, you know, or destroying your life. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's funny. Everyone I talked to who's sort of my

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<v Speaker 2>age about this, I've done this podcast and cocaine, they're

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<v Speaker 2>like they have a story about a bloke who's blown

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<v Speaker 2>up his marriage because he's done too much cocaine.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone knows somebody.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone knows somebody. I was in the I was in

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<v Speaker 2>the Quantus lounge out the other day because I was

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<v Speaker 2>coming back from Sydney and I just randomly got talking

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<v Speaker 2>to this bloke.

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<v Speaker 1>And Sydney's the place to hear those stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Sydney is, but it's in Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course it is. But I've got a question where

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<v Speaker 1>someone has done a very stupid thing. I'd say a

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<v Speaker 1>Christmas party or some event where they've played up and

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<v Speaker 1>out of character. You'd think done something really rash and

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<v Speaker 1>silly and sexist and predatory. But how do you think

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes it's because they're under the influence.

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<v Speaker 2>Of the Colombian marching powder.

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<v Speaker 1>Think, Yeah, I'm just asking.

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<v Speaker 2>I would think that there's two parts to that question.

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<v Speaker 2>One is they're stupid and they should have done it.

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<v Speaker 2>But also, if you're my age, if you've had too

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<v Speaker 2>many beers, you kind of just fall asleep, Whereas if

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<v Speaker 2>you're still up and about in a position where you

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<v Speaker 2>can be a bit stupid and a bit predatory, or

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<v Speaker 2>then you probably may have had some chemical assistance as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I see I've resigned to spend more time with my

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<v Speaker 1>family because there was a sadness at the Christmas party

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever that could be it.

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<v Speaker 2>There's lots of potential reasons, but theoretically it might be

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<v Speaker 2>theoretically a reason why some blokes who should know better,

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<v Speaker 2>and sadly it's usually blokes get caught in those situations

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<v Speaker 2>they do.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, tell me what you've found out about the cocaine trade.

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<v Speaker 1>That is going to shock and amaze me and shock

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<v Speaker 1>and amaze our listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>What we've done in the podcast is really look at

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<v Speaker 2>the business of cocaine, so we're trying to not so

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<v Speaker 2>much have a view of whether it's right or wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not saying legalize it, We're not saying, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>ban it. We're just wondering did the war on drugs

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<v Speaker 2>kind of work? And when you start looking at the

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<v Speaker 2>business side of things, you realize it's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a very difficult thing for anyone to stop. Because the

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<v Speaker 2>markup from Colombia to here in Australia, it's a sixty

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<v Speaker 2>four million percent markup.

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<v Speaker 1>Sixty four million percent markt at the base point.

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<v Speaker 2>When it's a coca leaf in Colombia, it's worth about

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<v Speaker 2>point zero zero zero nine of a cent here, that's

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<v Speaker 2>for a gram. Here in Australia, you can pay up

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<v Speaker 2>to five hundred dollars for a gramm of cocaine depending

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<v Speaker 2>on the purity. And the purity in Australia on the

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<v Speaker 2>streets it ranges from twenty two percent pure cocaine in

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<v Speaker 2>the gram you're getting to sixty percent and that's about it.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's been cut with all sorts of random stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like love amasole, which is a worm killer in chickens

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<v Speaker 2>and cattle, but it looks like cocaine. So it's popular

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<v Speaker 2>as a cutting agent, but.

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<v Speaker 1>Not something I'd want to put into my body.

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<v Speaker 2>No, But when you're trying to be posh and thinking

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<v Speaker 2>you're fantastic and you're showing off to your friends about

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<v Speaker 2>how much money you have because you can go and

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<v Speaker 2>buy cocaine, well perhaps you don't care.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting the history of it. It's not as new drug

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<v Speaker 1>as a lot of us imagine, although it's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>its popularity in the last twenty five years has exploded,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess. But I can recall as a very young

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<v Speaker 1>reporter talking to old time crooks. So I'm talking about

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<v Speaker 1>the nineteen eighties talking to people who were around during

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<v Speaker 1>World War Two and these old guys that had spent

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<v Speaker 1>you know, they run robbers and all the rest of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Very old time Ozzie crooks. And they talked about back

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<v Speaker 1>in the old days in the forties and fifties grouse

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<v Speaker 1>snow ten bobbago.

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<v Speaker 2>Or yeah, yeah, So we're still in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>It was the forties. The crooks, crooks in those days

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<v Speaker 1>call it snow and they used to use it. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think it goes all the way back to World

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<v Speaker 1>War One, when World War One veterans returned from the

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<v Speaker 1>trenches of Europe with cocaine habits. It had been given

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<v Speaker 1>to them to keep going, keep them awake, keep them up,

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<v Speaker 1>keep them brave, painkiller whatever. And so there were men

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<v Speaker 1>returning in nineteen ninety nineteen twenty with cocaine habits.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>And if one of the earliest references you'll see in

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<v Speaker 1>Australia is to people being charged over it in around

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenty, amazing a one hundred years ago has been

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<v Speaker 1>around for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean people in Colombia have been eating the coca

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<v Speaker 2>leaves just for thousands of years. To sort of as

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<v Speaker 2>an appetite supressant and for medicinal purposes. I meant, but

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<v Speaker 2>having one or two coca leaves is different to the

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<v Speaker 2>supercharged stuff today. But it's interesting to know that it

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<v Speaker 2>is going been there for a while. I mean, Coca

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<v Speaker 2>Cola itself was said to have had cocaine in it once.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the sort of theory. And that was taken out

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<v Speaker 2>and it wasn't. Sherlock Holmes and the snuff boxes, is

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<v Speaker 2>that not cocaine?

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<v Speaker 1>Probably?

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<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, it's nothing new under the sun. But what

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<v Speaker 2>is new is that the biking gangs, the crime gangs,

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<v Speaker 2>they've got so much better. And it's this thing on

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<v Speaker 2>the desk. It's a mobile phone. Because twenty years ago

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<v Speaker 2>in Colombia, if you wanted to try and move a

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<v Speaker 2>quilo of cocaine, how do you do that? How do

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<v Speaker 2>you talk to someone in Australia about that? But now

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<v Speaker 2>you're not moving a kilo, you're moving a ton, you're

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<v Speaker 2>moving one hundred tons and you want to talk to

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<v Speaker 2>someone in Australia, Well you've got a message app, you

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<v Speaker 2>can do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Ok. How are the big operators moving the stuff? I

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<v Speaker 1>mean obviously ships, but yeah, bits and pieces, so there's

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<v Speaker 1>some aeroplanes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the Americans spending a lot of money to support

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<v Speaker 2>the Columbian police to try and stop cocaine coming into America.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a tough job, but one thing in the advantage

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<v Speaker 2>for the Americans, unlike Mexico, the land the geography between

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<v Speaker 2>Colombia and Mexico that you can't drive it. There's no

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<v Speaker 2>way to get it through. You have to get the

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<v Speaker 2>stuff out through the water. There's no roads between Columbia

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<v Speaker 2>and Mexico that the mountains are too high, so that

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<v Speaker 2>gives a police a chance to stop it coming out

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<v Speaker 2>on vessels from the north of Colombia and the Caribbean Sea.

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<v Speaker 2>So pretty much it's as hard a border as you

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<v Speaker 2>could possibly get. But what's happened with the cocaine trade

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<v Speaker 2>is they've gone, well, we can't go over it, we

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<v Speaker 2>can't go under we'll have to go through it. So

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<v Speaker 2>they've gone over the hills into Brazil, and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the cocaine now is going through that direction, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's something they call the Southern Cone, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>very boring way of saying that going through Argentina. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's going down the Pirana and now forgive me if

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<v Speaker 2>you've got some Spanish speakers listening if I've pronounced that incorrectly.

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<v Speaker 2>But it goes out through the Piranha River, which is

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<v Speaker 2>about four thousand miles, and that it goes into Uruguay

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<v Speaker 2>and comes out through Argentina as well, So it's coming

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<v Speaker 2>through every other possible which way. It's like putting a

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<v Speaker 2>piece of wood in front tap while the water is

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<v Speaker 2>just going to get around the piece of wood. And

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<v Speaker 2>the difference is now, in twenty sixteen, we used to

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<v Speaker 2>have aerial spraying crop spraying of cocaine plants in Columbia.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that changed. The government said, look, we're worried about

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<v Speaker 2>harming local people and giving them cancer because the chemicals

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<v Speaker 2>aren't great, so let's stop it. That has meant that

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<v Speaker 2>the amount of coca plants growing has at least doubled,

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<v Speaker 2>if not trebled, since twenty sixteen. And also the FARC,

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<v Speaker 2>which is FARC I'm not swearing on this podcast, is

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<v Speaker 2>the revolutionary forces in Colombia did a peace deal with

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<v Speaker 2>the Colombian government in about twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, and

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<v Speaker 2>what that meant was they sort of stopped They called

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<v Speaker 2>it narco terrorism. They stopped fighting with the Colombian government.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's also meant there's no go areas in Colombia

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<v Speaker 2>where the government troops just won't go. The fark soldiers

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<v Speaker 2>actually controllers areas, which has meant, well, there's more chance

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<v Speaker 2>of no one having eyes on those coca plants, and

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<v Speaker 2>the crops have got bigger. But what it's also done

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<v Speaker 2>is it's created a bit more of an open market

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<v Speaker 2>because once the revolutionary forces stopped being so dominant and

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<v Speaker 2>having to fight and having to sell the cocaine to

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<v Speaker 2>fund their terrorism in Columbia, well, other jokers have gone

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<v Speaker 2>into the trade. And your friends in Albania where you

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<v Speaker 2>just went to, they managed to get some plane chickets

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<v Speaker 2>to Bogata and they've set up shop there. They're going

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<v Speaker 2>out and they're taking a lot of drugs through Ecuador

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<v Speaker 2>as well. So there's a new smuggling route out through Ecuador,

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<v Speaker 2>which previously was relatively stable. And last year we saw

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<v Speaker 2>pictures on the television of armed gangs going into a

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<v Speaker 2>live TV studio and shooting people live on air, and

0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:47.719
<v Speaker 2>the president was assassinated.

0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:53.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it's the phenomenal wealth generated in places of phenomenal

0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:59.080
<v Speaker 1>property leads to these grotesque situations where nothing's impossible, anything

0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:03.240
<v Speaker 1>can be bought, anybody can be brought, Prostitution goes through

0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:04.400
<v Speaker 1>the roof, everything goes.

0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:08.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. But and what I find frustrating is that the

0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.280
<v Speaker 2>same people who will take their cocaine on the weekend,

0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.160
<v Speaker 2>they'll sit there and brag about it. They show off

0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.439
<v Speaker 2>to their friends, They'll be proud to pay three hundred

0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.800
<v Speaker 2>dollars because they're so posh. Their choices are causing this violence.

0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.400
<v Speaker 2>They are the demand that is causing the supply.

0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.240
<v Speaker 1>Very true. One often suspects that there's a bit of

0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.440
<v Speaker 1>winking and nodding around the place that a lot of

0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.480
<v Speaker 1>people who you know talk about cocaine being bad news

0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 1>and the way we are really but we're genuine in

0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.679
<v Speaker 1>their private life. They're not nearly as critical I would

0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:48.080
<v Speaker 1>some lawyers, judges, judges, Yeah, maybe some agents, oh, I

0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.920
<v Speaker 1>think so real. Also, the drug dealers aren't stupid, they've

0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.320
<v Speaker 1>gone where the cash is. And now sports people they

0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:57.800
<v Speaker 1>there has been some reports in the paper about some

0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.280
<v Speaker 1>professional sports people. They do get drug tested more often

0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.280
<v Speaker 1>than the rest of the community. It's not fattening.

0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how true that is that I think

0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.640
<v Speaker 2>people sometimes if they were super controlled, if they didn't

0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.040
<v Speaker 2>drink alcohol with it, maybe it's not fattening, but I

0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.480
<v Speaker 2>think a lot of people would get on the beers

0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:14.280
<v Speaker 2>and then get on the gear.

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 1>It is the perfect jockey drug because jockeys cannot eat,

0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, they're starving themselves for a living, and they

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.280
<v Speaker 1>would love to eat, and they'd love to drink and

0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 1>they can't, so they can't. They're not even drinking water.

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 1>A lot of them are not even water. They're drinking

0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.760
<v Speaker 1>tiny little bits of water. They ride dehydrated, which is

0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:41.120
<v Speaker 1>why they're often you know, angry well and make mistakes. Yeah, yeah,

0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.000
<v Speaker 1>they do. That's why sometimes you see mistakes made. And

0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.600
<v Speaker 1>so it's an ideal drug for particularly jockeys for that.

0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 1>For that reason, maybe even let's say racing car drivers,

0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.040
<v Speaker 1>small guys who've got to stay light. Money is not

0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.040
<v Speaker 1>a real problem.

0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.560
<v Speaker 2>For them, but they could get away with it. And

0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.959
<v Speaker 2>also cocaine does in th coome out of your system

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.000
<v Speaker 2>a little bit more quickly than most other drugs.

0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:08.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it suits some lifestyles. It sort of suits

0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:14.600
<v Speaker 1>them as a substitute for the more conventional mind altering

0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.320
<v Speaker 1>substances like be it one and someone.

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.440
<v Speaker 2>And I also see all the stats now about kids

0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 2>aren't drinking as much, and that just means they're getting

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 2>off their heads on other spect So I'm going to

0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:30.840
<v Speaker 2>mate who works for a brewering company, is like, what's

0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:31.680
<v Speaker 2>going on with these kids?

0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.000
<v Speaker 1>They're not drinking anymore, and.

0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.280
<v Speaker 2>It's because they're doing drugs. You know. I spoke to

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.560
<v Speaker 2>someone else who had young children and at a private school,

0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.840
<v Speaker 2>and thirteen year olds are on all sorts of other substances,

0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.400
<v Speaker 2>and it's only going to get more and more common.

0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.440
<v Speaker 2>It becomes a really tough one. What do we do.

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Do we just throw our hands in the air and

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 2>say that's it, we let all drugs through through the door.

0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't know.

0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm not of that view because a the crime groups

0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 2>aren't going to just go, oh yeah, what we're Cocaine's legal. Now,

0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to stop selling this and making you know,

0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.480
<v Speaker 2>three hundred dollars a gram. I'll go onto something else.

0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.040
<v Speaker 2>It's less profitable. I doubt that's going to happen. And

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.160
<v Speaker 2>if they do, they'll go onto something else like fentanyl,

0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 2>which is cheap to make and even more.

0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:18.560
<v Speaker 1>Deadly as yes, that's right, fental wick and stuff it's

0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:23.000
<v Speaker 1>an interesting thing. Now you've told us the production's gone up,

0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 1>the prices are high at the same time, and this

0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 1>is forced out of South America along various routes. It

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 1>finds its natural level, it finds its way to the surface,

0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:35.520
<v Speaker 1>it gets it finds its sway to the markets.

0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.680
<v Speaker 2>So it also doesn't go directly from South America to Sydney.

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.640
<v Speaker 2>What will happen is it will go all over the place.

0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.040
<v Speaker 2>It will pinball around the world in a way to

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.760
<v Speaker 2>try and evade authorities. Because if they see a ship

0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.160
<v Speaker 2>coming straight from South America, from Ecuador or from Columbia,

0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.080
<v Speaker 2>they're going to go, hang on, let's go and check

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.280
<v Speaker 2>this out. But say it's been to Canada. Say it's

0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.000
<v Speaker 2>been to Hong Kong. So it's been to France, so

0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 2>it's been to China.

0:15:58.240 --> 0:15:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Well not as obvious.

0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.320
<v Speaker 2>It's not as obvious. And those ships, they can go

0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.320
<v Speaker 2>from a beatersz quite easily, because that's how the global

0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 2>trade does work.

0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, if it's the same ship, it's traceable, of course,

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:15.240
<v Speaker 1>but if it's offloading somewhere, then you put it on

0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.560
<v Speaker 1>the one that originates in Canada, which it looks in

0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.480
<v Speaker 1>an innocent origin port of origin. You need to get

0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:27.200
<v Speaker 1>on the one that's the innocent, relatively innocent port of origin.

0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.560
<v Speaker 2>You've got someone on the inside. You know which containers

0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.160
<v Speaker 2>are going to be checked exactly. Not because if we

0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.800
<v Speaker 2>did that, if we su checked every single container that

0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.280
<v Speaker 2>came into the ports of Sydney or Melbourne.

0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.080
<v Speaker 1>We'd find a lot of tobacco.

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.760
<v Speaker 2>We would find a lot of tobacco. We would, but

0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 2>we'd never get our kids Christmas presents because they'd all

0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 2>be sitting on the dock.

0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.200
<v Speaker 1>Is that a bad thing? I kind of like Cama.

0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.320
<v Speaker 2>The kids toys are pretty cheap there, especially good for

0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.640
<v Speaker 2>other children's birthday parties. So it just wouldn't work. When

0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.080
<v Speaker 2>you look at the tobacco. They're finding ten million cigarettes

0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.840
<v Speaker 2>a week in Melbourne alone. And I can go down

0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.640
<v Speaker 2>to my local milk bar and I'm not saying where

0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.200
<v Speaker 2>I live. I can go down to a milk bar

0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:08.720
<v Speaker 2>which may be near my house or not, and they're

0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.160
<v Speaker 2>behind the counter. They're everywhere.

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Of course, yes, so we can't. And when governments produced

0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.639
<v Speaker 1>figures health departments saying that smoking is almost extinct because

0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:25.840
<v Speaker 1>no one's smoking anymore, because there's not much excise because

0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.600
<v Speaker 1>they're not selling it. But the reality is there's plenty

0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.960
<v Speaker 1>of people smoking, but they're all smoking the cheap stuff.

0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.960
<v Speaker 1>The jop and the imputs well. It just shows you

0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:39.600
<v Speaker 1>how deluded authorities can be, particularly if they want to be.

0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.159
<v Speaker 2>Fifty seven dollars for a pack of smokes. It's going

0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.000
<v Speaker 2>to really encourage alternative markets.

0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:50.040
<v Speaker 1>I would have thought so. The great law of unexpected outcomes,

0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, the unintended unintended consequences is far better phrase.

0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of unintended consequences. One of the problems with the

0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.240
<v Speaker 2>drug trade is you may not even be a drug user,

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.639
<v Speaker 2>but it's not far from your door. And we spoke

0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:07.240
<v Speaker 2>to Tim Edwards, whose daughter Ali, she was murdered outside

0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.399
<v Speaker 2>a pub on Christmas Eve in the UK. She went

0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.240
<v Speaker 2>outside for a cigarette and it's Christmas Eve in the UK.

0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.720
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty cold. She's out there.

0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Having a drink.

0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.399
<v Speaker 2>And in the UK on Christmas Eve, if you're in

0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.199
<v Speaker 2>your twenties, you're at the pub. It is one of

0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.919
<v Speaker 2>the best nights of the year. Everyone's out and about.

0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:24.760
<v Speaker 2>There was a young fellow there by the name of

0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.080
<v Speaker 2>Connor Schapman. He's been found guilty, he's been in jailed

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.200
<v Speaker 2>for forty eight years for this. He turns up at

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.560
<v Speaker 2>that pub, the Wallersley Pub in the world and opens

0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.359
<v Speaker 2>fire with a machine gun. Why did he do this

0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.359
<v Speaker 2>Because somebody had wrapped up his mate the day before.

0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh so he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.720
<v Speaker 2>And because of that, our family's lost a loved one,

0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 2>twenty six year old girl who is no longer with us.

0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.160
<v Speaker 2>And these are the things that we sort of forget

0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.520
<v Speaker 2>about the drug trader, is that you can be a victim.

0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Even there's two surfers in Perth a couple of weeks

0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.800
<v Speaker 2>in Perth, boys in Mexico. In Mexico, they got murdered

0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.080
<v Speaker 2>by people linked to the cartels because they were victims

0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.440
<v Speaker 2>of a robbery and they tried to well we don't

0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.600
<v Speaker 2>know exactly the circumstances, but they have been shot by

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.040
<v Speaker 2>people connected to the cartels.

0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.200
<v Speaker 1>Of course, terrible business.

0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:17.040
<v Speaker 2>There is real problems with the cocaine trade, and I

0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:21.640
<v Speaker 2>think people probably forget, you know, their choices do have consequences,

0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:22.479
<v Speaker 2>not just for them.

0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.560
<v Speaker 1>Now you've already released three episodes of this most excellent series.

0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:28.400
<v Speaker 1>You've got a total of eight.

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.199
<v Speaker 2>What is the fourth one fourth episode is called the

0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.200
<v Speaker 2>pineapple Trader. It's about a beller called Pete Costa.

0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah in the Netherlands. Sounds like a Dutch.

0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Name, yeah it is, but Pete is is pineapple in Dutch.

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.760
<v Speaker 2>So he was the pineapple guy from Costa Rica because

0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.440
<v Speaker 2>he always kept going there and that became his nickname.

0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.480
<v Speaker 2>But he was not just bringing pineapples back in the

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.720
<v Speaker 2>actually being containers. He was also bringing back cocaine. Was

0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.480
<v Speaker 2>he He was making a fair bit of money about this,

0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and he was he was kind of I like sort

0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.480
<v Speaker 2>of oil or water. He just sort of slid through

0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:06.720
<v Speaker 2>everywhere and no one seemed to notice him as he

0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.840
<v Speaker 2>built his empire. But then he got a bit angry.

0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Someone had ripped him off into property deal to the

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.520
<v Speaker 2>tune of about one hundred million dollars, and it started

0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.040
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a dispute, and mister Costa then thought

0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.679
<v Speaker 2>it was a good idea to set up a torture chamber.

0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.760
<v Speaker 2>So he went to some lengths. He got a shipping container,

0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.600
<v Speaker 2>buried it underground, covered the whole thing in plastic, and

0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.040
<v Speaker 2>had a dentist chair all set up ready to go.

0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.280
<v Speaker 2>And next to the dentist chair was scalpels and hammers

0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:39.119
<v Speaker 2>and drills ready to go. So he's now serving some

0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:40.440
<v Speaker 2>time for that, but.

0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 1>All over a property deal. We'll have a property deal.

0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.359
<v Speaker 2>And he'd managed to sort of keep things professional for

0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.520
<v Speaker 2>a long time, but when it came to the crunch,

0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.800
<v Speaker 2>he got a bit a bit greedy. And we don't

0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.040
<v Speaker 2>know how many people lost their fingers or their thumbs

0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.159
<v Speaker 2>or their toes in that torture chamber, but it was

0:20:58.280 --> 0:20:59.320
<v Speaker 2>very well set up.

0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:04.080
<v Speaker 1>That very spooky. That that's episode four. What's episode five?

0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Episode five ninety testing my memory? Episode five we go

0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:11.640
<v Speaker 2>look it up. Episode five we go to Dubai where

0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.280
<v Speaker 2>we're chasing the money. So follow the money, Follow the

0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.960
<v Speaker 2>money because another thing that's sort of it's great to

0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:21.480
<v Speaker 2>make money out of cocaine, but what you have to

0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:23.520
<v Speaker 2>do is actually try and get rid of it, and

0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.040
<v Speaker 2>you can't just go and pop it in a bank.

0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.320
<v Speaker 2>So there was a guy called called Abdullah al Falasi

0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.240
<v Speaker 2>who's in jail for nine years as we speak. He

0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.880
<v Speaker 2>decided to actually get cash, wrap it up in plastic,

0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.040
<v Speaker 2>chuck it in suitcases and get them perhaps naive or

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.119
<v Speaker 2>naive young women who were beauty sell on staff in

0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.399
<v Speaker 2>the pandemic in the UK and just pop them on

0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.240
<v Speaker 2>a plane to Dubai for a few days, all expenses

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.280
<v Speaker 2>page and you get three thousand dollars cash And all

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:52.959
<v Speaker 2>you have to do was jump on a business class

0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:58.880
<v Speaker 2>flight with seven bags filled with pounds up to four

0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.200
<v Speaker 2>and a half million pounds per trip.

0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Is that right? Carry money?

0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.040
<v Speaker 2>Carry money? They moved at least one hundred million pounds

0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.080
<v Speaker 2>this way over a couple of years until it got

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:09.840
<v Speaker 2>wound up.

0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.880
<v Speaker 1>And they just say nothing to declare that to be that.

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:16.200
<v Speaker 2>No, you could declare it because in Jubai, you know,

0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.000
<v Speaker 2>five million pounds is just it's just walking around money there.

0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:23.560
<v Speaker 1>So if you went to the there's no problem taking

0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:24.720
<v Speaker 1>turn up.

0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:26.919
<v Speaker 2>With a piece of paper saying this is money from

0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:31.280
<v Speaker 2>our gold trading business, and declare it. Then you get

0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.359
<v Speaker 2>it gets counted, so they have actual counting machines.

0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.000
<v Speaker 1>At the airport, and then what would happen.

0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:38.879
<v Speaker 2>Then they give you a piece of paper and declare

0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:40.240
<v Speaker 2>it clean, and you go and pop it in the.

0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.160
<v Speaker 1>Bank, in the bank, in the bank.

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:44.760
<v Speaker 2>That's wonderful, all good, And you might just be paying

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.520
<v Speaker 2>off some friends who have been dealing cocaine or supplying

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.879
<v Speaker 2>you with that cocaine from Dubai and also Dubai has

0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:56.359
<v Speaker 2>become a bit of a haven for criminals, so scaleyways

0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.480
<v Speaker 2>go there, Australian Australian Scaley wags. Yes, there's been a

0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:02.880
<v Speaker 2>fellow called Angelo Pandelli who's on our most Wanted list,

0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:07.040
<v Speaker 2>who has bought a property over there. It's currently being

0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:10.119
<v Speaker 2>gutted and rebuilt on the Palm Mirror, that sort of

0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.520
<v Speaker 2>fancy man made island that you can see from the sky,

0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:16.439
<v Speaker 2>and they're kind of it's a good place to live,

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.359
<v Speaker 2>I would imagine, because they're like who bedroom houses.

0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.719
<v Speaker 1>Good in its way. Yeah, I mean, it's like the

0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Truman Show dropped into a desert where people in long

0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 1>white headdresses drive rain drovers and may well run over you.

0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:33.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it's a weird place. You can't just go

0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:34.760
<v Speaker 2>and walk around.

0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 1>On the street because if they run over you, they

0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:39.600
<v Speaker 1>don't care because no one's going to prosecute them.

0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 2>There's perhaps one rule for the locals and one rule

0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:47.240
<v Speaker 2>for the It is bad.

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:50.520
<v Speaker 1>I think if you're the second cousin could run over

0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:51.879
<v Speaker 1>you without any problems.

0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Possibly, Yes, Well, you know, there's there's other stories about

0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:57.920
<v Speaker 2>there I can think of, which I may not mention.

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.400
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, so there's lots of cash there and that's

0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:03.960
<v Speaker 2>where they're doing the deals as well. It's become an

0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.360
<v Speaker 2>international cocaine hub.

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:11.160
<v Speaker 1>Is it okay? And that's just the a moral nature.

0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Of well, I think they're just interested in trying to

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.000
<v Speaker 2>get some money in and from their point of view,

0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:21.440
<v Speaker 2>they're like, well, we're not having the drugs here because

0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:24.840
<v Speaker 2>it's very expensive and difficult to find drugs in Jubai's

0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:26.040
<v Speaker 2>probably it's hard to find a beer.

0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:30.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're sort of becoming the Switzerland of the Middle East.

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:32.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, Yeah, we don't care how you making money,

0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:34.359
<v Speaker 1>but we we'll mind it for you.

0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:35.119
<v Speaker 2>Mind for you.

0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:38.920
<v Speaker 1>We've got some lovely hotel suite to stay in when

0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:40.040
<v Speaker 1>you come here to handle it.

0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.159
<v Speaker 2>And then they've also got fair bit of gold trading.

0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:46.879
<v Speaker 2>There's a gold souk in Dubai whether you can go

0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:50.240
<v Speaker 2>and trade anything, and one of our colleagues went under

0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.080
<v Speaker 2>color and spoke to a trader there and said, I

0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:54.880
<v Speaker 2>want to buy one hundred and eight thousand pounds worth

0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:58.760
<v Speaker 2>of gold, and there's an audio recording of it. He's like, well,

0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:01.920
<v Speaker 2>just between us, the money came from crime, do you care?

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.359
<v Speaker 2>And the local gold trader who we've given a new

0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 2>name in the podcast to protect him, and he goes, yeah,

0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't care wherever it comes from, just go for it.

0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:13.720
<v Speaker 2>So that's where the money sort of rolls up. And

0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:16.600
<v Speaker 2>then eventually it's got to get back into Australia and

0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:19.080
<v Speaker 2>moved around the world again to eat.

0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:21.200
<v Speaker 1>So they're turning dirty cash into gold.

0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:24.040
<v Speaker 2>Dirty cash into gold, and then you can take it

0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:24.480
<v Speaker 2>in your.

0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Bags portable and anonymous.

0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Anonymous melts it down, so could company, or you can

0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:35.399
<v Speaker 2>melt it down into jewelry, wear it, wear it. So

0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:36.920
<v Speaker 2>what if you're wearing.

0:25:37.200 --> 0:25:39.399
<v Speaker 1>Funny how the crook's always like that heavy gold stuff?

0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:41.159
<v Speaker 2>Heavy gold stuff. I mean, what if you have a

0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:44.920
<v Speaker 2>really fancy necklace that maybe you know, four or five ounces,

0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:46.560
<v Speaker 2>or maybe you get a killer of it, or maybe

0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:49.520
<v Speaker 2>you did heavy rings or all sorts of stuff. You

0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:52.200
<v Speaker 2>can probably walk through the airport with half a million

0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:52.800
<v Speaker 2>dollars worth.

0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:58.199
<v Speaker 1>Of funny what crooks gather. Heavy jewelry is one of

0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:04.240
<v Speaker 1>the things, but reptile fish in the paintings, all sorts

0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:04.880
<v Speaker 1>of funny things.

0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:07.840
<v Speaker 2>It's a bit. Yeah, your art is a big way

0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:10.560
<v Speaker 2>to launder money as well. And there's also a bit.

0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:14.440
<v Speaker 1>Of old one like collectible one.

0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, collectible one, and then if it gets smashed you

0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.760
<v Speaker 2>can claim it on insurance smashed or perhaps drunk.

0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:24.159
<v Speaker 1>You never know, so I don't want to test your

0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:26.679
<v Speaker 1>memory too much. But what would episode six be?

0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Episode six is also injured bias. We had a couple

0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:33.919
<v Speaker 2>episodes there and then we end up coming back into Australia.

0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:37.399
<v Speaker 1>Where we the Times guys came here too.

0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:39.199
<v Speaker 2>I did that one, so we all sort of we

0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:41.399
<v Speaker 2>separated the jobs out and I went and knocked on

0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:44.440
<v Speaker 2>a door at a house in Melbourne which was accused

0:26:44.440 --> 0:26:46.719
<v Speaker 2>of being the process of crime, and had a very

0:26:46.800 --> 0:26:49.240
<v Speaker 2>lengthy chat with one of the people there who said

0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:52.119
<v Speaker 2>they weren't money Launders. They were driving a four hundred

0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:55.520
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars Mercedes because they were doing big business. And

0:26:55.560 --> 0:26:57.880
<v Speaker 2>you can't drive around in a day or a Toyota

0:26:58.359 --> 0:26:59.960
<v Speaker 2>because it wouldn't you wouldn't look the part.

0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Well let's you know, look look at the state agents

0:27:03.800 --> 0:27:04.440
<v Speaker 1>they do.

0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:06.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how they afford those cars though.

0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:10.040
<v Speaker 1>But they see it as part of the image. Well,

0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:13.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, they take the view. Clients don't want to

0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:17.320
<v Speaker 1>use somebody who's not successful enough to look successful. It's

0:27:17.720 --> 0:27:20.080
<v Speaker 1>part of the psychologists.

0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:23.479
<v Speaker 2>Are terrible though. That's yeah, you have bad taste.

0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:25.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah they look like spiffs.

0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:28.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it can be. So that's where we've wound up.

0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:31.160
<v Speaker 2>We followed the whole thing, the cash, all the way

0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:31.640
<v Speaker 2>around the.

0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:33.959
<v Speaker 1>World, and how was the reception when you're knocked on

0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:34.480
<v Speaker 1>that door?

0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:37.920
<v Speaker 2>They it was a bit frosty to start with. They said,

0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:39.720
<v Speaker 2>hang on, we're not involved in it anyway. And I

0:27:39.720 --> 0:27:42.240
<v Speaker 2>went okay, So went not on the neighbor's door and

0:27:42.240 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 2>I said, have you seen anyone move in the last

0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:47.399
<v Speaker 2>few months. They're like, no, that's the same people. So

0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:49.880
<v Speaker 2>I went back and asked again. I go, oh, they say,

0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:52.760
<v Speaker 2>you haven't moved. What's happening And they said, look, we're

0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:55.480
<v Speaker 2>not We're not directly involved, but we've got some relatives

0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:58.280
<v Speaker 2>were involved, and they sort of they were able to detail,

0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:02.760
<v Speaker 2>sort of in quite a large amount of depth, why

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:06.400
<v Speaker 2>the police were wrong about their assertions. And that's still

0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:08.760
<v Speaker 2>a matter that's going through the courts as we speak.

0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:11.199
<v Speaker 2>Probably later in the year they might come back on.

0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:13.639
<v Speaker 1>But this has all to do with laundering money.

0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Laundering money, that's the allegations.

0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:19.639
<v Speaker 1>Waundering money is a big thing isn't it really around

0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 1>the world. And when it comes to mainly drug money,

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:26.920
<v Speaker 1>really by large, drug money is well, not not exclusively,

0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:28.400
<v Speaker 1>but that's the big one.

0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:30.399
<v Speaker 2>It's where the problem is as well, because if you

0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:33.800
<v Speaker 2>end up with cash, if you're trying to run a business,

0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:36.359
<v Speaker 2>say a restaurant, that might be an obvious way to

0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:39.560
<v Speaker 2>launder some cash. How do you know how many people

0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:42.800
<v Speaker 2>came in that day for a meal? You say you

0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:45.280
<v Speaker 2>might have ten customers, you might say there was five hundred.

0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:48.880
<v Speaker 2>If they all pay cash, maybe that's really who came in.

0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:53.080
<v Speaker 2>But if you're opening up a legitimate restaurant next door

0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:55.200
<v Speaker 2>to one that's been used for money.

0:28:55.040 --> 0:29:00.040
<v Speaker 1>Laundering motels the same, how does that work? Well, it

0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:02.800
<v Speaker 1>does not fair. I mean they'll rack it up in

0:29:02.840 --> 0:29:06.920
<v Speaker 1>the Riverina and this will have happened across the world.

0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:11.440
<v Speaker 1>It's not unique to anywhere. But the mafia money from

0:29:12.040 --> 0:29:17.520
<v Speaker 1>in those days, cannabis buy a motel in countrytown, put

0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:21.360
<v Speaker 1>a patsy manager in and the reality is the motel

0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:26.560
<v Speaker 1>might run it forty percent occupancy. It's just just viable nearly,

0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:29.800
<v Speaker 1>but when the mafia r on it, you know suddenly

0:29:29.840 --> 0:29:35.200
<v Speaker 1>it's because they throwing they're throwing money in the till

0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:39.800
<v Speaker 1>it's fake. Just not washing the sheets anymore, because you

0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:42.640
<v Speaker 1>know they're not actually getting people through the door. They

0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:43.240
<v Speaker 1>just make it.

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Look as if it is.

0:29:44.200 --> 0:29:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Of course, the book profits twelve months later. Oh my god,

0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:51.640
<v Speaker 1>they've doubled their income. It's wonderful. And then they can

0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:53.400
<v Speaker 1>put it on the market and sell it for an

0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:56.960
<v Speaker 1>inflated price to some poor person who's then going to

0:29:57.040 --> 0:30:00.600
<v Speaker 1>go broke. They do the double, and then the new

0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:04.040
<v Speaker 1>person goes broke because it's you, having retired from your

0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:06.040
<v Speaker 1>job and you said, let's move to the country and

0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:11.760
<v Speaker 1>buy this beautiful hotel. And then guess what, you sell

0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:13.680
<v Speaker 1>it because you broke, and they buy it back and

0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:14.360
<v Speaker 1>do it all again.

0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:21.080
<v Speaker 2>That's genius, just perpetual motion, one born every minute. Yes,

0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:23.040
<v Speaker 2>but that would happen if you had someone from the city.

0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Not realizing.

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Our friend Tony mog Bell owned something like seventeen boutiques

0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:31.920
<v Speaker 1>at some station. He would have a Patsy boutique shops

0:30:32.800 --> 0:30:36.160
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of things, but often clothes, and he put

0:30:36.200 --> 0:30:39.080
<v Speaker 1>a Patsy in and said, you know, you can have

0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:41.480
<v Speaker 1>a salary, you can do what you like. But when

0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:43.800
<v Speaker 1>I say we sell a business. We sell a business,

0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:46.520
<v Speaker 1>and I think really what happened was he be running

0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:48.600
<v Speaker 1>money through the till when.

0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:50.200
<v Speaker 2>He's selling the businesses to himself as well.

0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:52.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, it'd be all different reasons why he'd

0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:56.120
<v Speaker 1>do certain things, but he would buy things like that

0:30:56.160 --> 0:31:00.880
<v Speaker 1>and establish them as false fronts. And you know that's

0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:02.920
<v Speaker 1>what drug people do when they put a lot of

0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:04.440
<v Speaker 1>money to play around with.

0:31:05.000 --> 0:31:08.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, and we're talking about sixty billion dollars a year

0:31:08.320 --> 0:31:09.240
<v Speaker 2>just in Australia.

0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:10.240
<v Speaker 1>It's a lot of money.

0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>So if you think about that.

0:31:11.680 --> 0:31:14.280
<v Speaker 1>Is it enough to square Victoria's debt?

0:31:14.640 --> 0:31:17.400
<v Speaker 2>You I think that's about one hundred and eighty billion

0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:20.480
<v Speaker 2>at the moment. But there's a lot of money being

0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:22.520
<v Speaker 2>spent and that's got to go somewhere. Some of it

0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:24.520
<v Speaker 2>would go off shore, probably a lot of it. A

0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:27.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of it would be spent on perhaps gambling, maybe

0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:31.000
<v Speaker 2>illegal gambling. There's estimates that for every dollar spent on

0:31:31.040 --> 0:31:34.560
<v Speaker 2>the legal gambling markets, there is about eight or ten

0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:39.000
<v Speaker 2>that's spent on the illegal markets, is roughly speaking, even.

0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:40.400
<v Speaker 1>In Australian context.

0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So the there's games, remember there's like electronic games,

0:31:44.160 --> 0:31:46.760
<v Speaker 2>which boggle with my mind why anyone.

0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:50.800
<v Speaker 1>Wouldn't do it. I can't believe it. Sometimes eighty times. Yeah.

0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:54.000
<v Speaker 2>So there was like when there was about eight million

0:31:54.040 --> 0:31:56.200
<v Speaker 2>dollars being spent on those e games and there was

0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.520
<v Speaker 2>a couple of young kids got caught. They actually stopped

0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:02.600
<v Speaker 2>playing to win and they were betting on themselves losing.

0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:07.800
<v Speaker 2>And when I was discussing that with some organized crime investigators,

0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:10.479
<v Speaker 2>they told me that, yeah, there's about eighty million dollars

0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:13.520
<v Speaker 2>being spent on that illegally, it's ten times the size

0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:14.240
<v Speaker 2>of the level market.

0:32:15.080 --> 0:32:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:32:16.000 --> 0:32:18.640
<v Speaker 2>But other than that, yeah, you might buy your own

0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:21.400
<v Speaker 2>product and you might have a gamble a bit, but

0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:24.000
<v Speaker 2>the money's got to go somewhere, and that, to me,

0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:27.200
<v Speaker 2>I think is the real weak point in the trade.

0:32:27.320 --> 0:32:30.120
<v Speaker 2>If the police can do more to make that really

0:32:30.160 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 2>hard to spend money, yes, which they have to a

0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:34.280
<v Speaker 2>certain extent. They've made it hard to spend money in Australia,

0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:37.480
<v Speaker 2>but they've meant the crooks went overseas, and.

0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:40.760
<v Speaker 1>I think it is hard to spend money in a

0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:43.680
<v Speaker 1>way that can't be traced easily.

0:32:43.720 --> 0:32:46.200
<v Speaker 2>But we love tapping our cards now, so it's a

0:32:46.240 --> 0:32:50.800
<v Speaker 2>little bit harder to actually make up some hairdresser appointments

0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:51.520
<v Speaker 2>if they weren't there.

0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:54.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, look, it's the eldest thing in the world. You know,

0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:59.000
<v Speaker 1>years ago when there were corrupt police getting cash payments,

0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:03.840
<v Speaker 1>often significant cash payments in relation to their salaries. I

0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:07.360
<v Speaker 1>remember one of them being interviewed about it, very sad

0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:09.800
<v Speaker 1>man because he'd been caught, and he said, in the end,

0:33:10.480 --> 0:33:13.080
<v Speaker 1>what did I do? You know, a lot of some

0:33:13.200 --> 0:33:17.720
<v Speaker 1>nice suits, some very nice shoes, and I'd go to

0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:20.760
<v Speaker 1>the races and bet on horses. But apart from it,

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:23.440
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't go and buy you a good bye car,

0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:27.560
<v Speaker 1>buy good cars. I couldn't get first class tickets around

0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:30.360
<v Speaker 1>the world or any of that stuff, because it's obvious.

0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:34.000
<v Speaker 1>So okay, I'll go to the races wearing a nice

0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:36.560
<v Speaker 1>suit and nice shoes, and the following week, I wear

0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:39.920
<v Speaker 1>a different cuitain different shoes, and I bet on horses

0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:43.160
<v Speaker 1>and mostly lose because you mostly do it. And you know,

0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.120
<v Speaker 1>cat paying cash at restaurants. He says, you can go

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:50.200
<v Speaker 1>out and have a good meal and pay the cash.

0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:53.120
<v Speaker 1>But even that leaves you a bit exposed. If you

0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:55.120
<v Speaker 1>know anybody's once, anybody's watching.

0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you bring your mates along as.

0:33:57.160 --> 0:33:59.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, I've got the hang on how does he thought that.

0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:02.600
<v Speaker 2>We did actually interview or if you don't know. Hamilton

0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:04.680
<v Speaker 2>of The Times interviewed a corrupt doc worker in the

0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Netherlands and he'd done some time for it. He'd been

0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:12.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of helping drug syndicates for about twenty years move

0:34:12.440 --> 0:34:12.920
<v Speaker 2>their drugs.

0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:16.000
<v Speaker 1>He was adore as adore and.

0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:17.520
<v Speaker 2>Then she asked him at the end of the interview,

0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.160
<v Speaker 2>will so was it worth it?

0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:21.080
<v Speaker 1>What do you think? You know?

0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:23.640
<v Speaker 2>And you had twenty years where you had to light

0:34:23.680 --> 0:34:27.120
<v Speaker 2>to your life, and you know, you ended up spending

0:34:27.120 --> 0:34:30.400
<v Speaker 2>the money on prostitutes and drugs and all sorts of

0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:33.960
<v Speaker 2>other things. And she expects him to say, oh, yeah, yeah,

0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:36.279
<v Speaker 2>drugs are bad, don't do it, and he's like, nah,

0:34:36.360 --> 0:34:38.680
<v Speaker 2>I had a lot of fun. So you know, for

0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:41.399
<v Speaker 2>some people, I think they're happy to live that life

0:34:41.440 --> 0:34:45.400
<v Speaker 2>and they want to be be living moment to moment,

0:34:45.560 --> 0:34:48.399
<v Speaker 2>but it does come at a cost. And like, if

0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:51.280
<v Speaker 2>you've got any sense of trying to not get caught,

0:34:51.560 --> 0:34:54.560
<v Speaker 2>then yeah, you can't really spend the money very obviously.

0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:58.799
<v Speaker 1>No, it's an intriguing thing, isn't it. Any form of

0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:04.400
<v Speaker 1>prohibition creates these markets, and what we've got now is

0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:08.719
<v Speaker 1>a giant version of the American prohibition experiment of the

0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:13.040
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenties a hundred years ago, which created essentially the

0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:17.080
<v Speaker 1>modern mafia, the Five Families of New York, and they

0:35:17.239 --> 0:35:20.480
<v Speaker 1>used to cheat each other with onions and tomatoes, lemons,

0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:25.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, and stand over other Italian families or whatever.

0:35:25.680 --> 0:35:32.040
<v Speaker 1>But after prohibition they became these massive international crime cartels.

0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:35.240
<v Speaker 1>Prohibition did it for them. And what we've got now

0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:39.759
<v Speaker 1>is not just American alcohol prohibition. What we've got now

0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:45.759
<v Speaker 1>is a global prohibition of certain drugs which has created

0:35:46.000 --> 0:35:50.440
<v Speaker 1>a global market. It's massive.

0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:53.719
<v Speaker 2>And then if you look at Mexico, they had elections

0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:56.880
<v Speaker 2>there on Dune the secondest a few weeks ago. Sixty

0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:00.920
<v Speaker 2>two politicians were murdered in the lead up to that election.

0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:04.960
<v Speaker 1>That is just that frightening.

0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:06.840
<v Speaker 2>It's just a fraction that they announced the war on

0:36:06.920 --> 0:36:10.080
<v Speaker 2>drugs in two thousand and six. There's been at least

0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:14.200
<v Speaker 2>four hundred and forty thousand murders. There's one hundred and

0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:18.200
<v Speaker 2>ten thousand people missing. Oh it's just so the body's

0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:18.840
<v Speaker 2>never found.

0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:22.840
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know why people go for holidays see personally,

0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:26.759
<v Speaker 1>because it's you know, they say, well, if you stick

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:30.120
<v Speaker 1>to the good resorts and and so on and so forth,

0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:32.719
<v Speaker 1>which is fine. But if you've got a place where

0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:38.040
<v Speaker 1>there are so many willing killers and so many guns

0:36:38.239 --> 0:36:42.640
<v Speaker 1>and all that stuff, it must spill over into from

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:46.520
<v Speaker 1>time times of violence from time to time.

0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:51.120
<v Speaker 2>Even accidentally, they're so called no go zones because the

0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:53.560
<v Speaker 2>crooks like holiday and in the nice sunny spots too,

0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:56.840
<v Speaker 2>they generally don't shoot people there. It's when you're in

0:36:56.880 --> 0:36:59.160
<v Speaker 2>the country areas, on the on the farms and those

0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:01.400
<v Speaker 2>type of places that's it gets done. But I just

0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:04.080
<v Speaker 2>say this spillover. Last year there was a person and

0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:06.560
<v Speaker 2>we don't know what trade they were involved in, but

0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:08.239
<v Speaker 2>they were sitting down at a cafe we right in

0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Mexico City and someone walks up and it's actually pretty clever,

0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.279
<v Speaker 2>which in a macab sense of the word. They walked

0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:18.120
<v Speaker 2>up as a couple, a man and a woman, and

0:37:18.200 --> 0:37:19.879
<v Speaker 2>a woman comes up and says, hey, can I ask

0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:25.040
<v Speaker 2>you for directions or something? And as he's distracted, go

0:37:25.080 --> 0:37:28.960
<v Speaker 2>shoots in the back of the head. It was very cold,

0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:32.600
<v Speaker 2>cold and it was all caught on CCTV. And the

0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:36.200
<v Speaker 2>other thing which Australian needs to guard against his impunity

0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:40.200
<v Speaker 2>because in Mexico, if you go and shoot somebody, even

0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:44.799
<v Speaker 2>the killers who kill those Perth surfers, how much time

0:37:44.840 --> 0:37:46.560
<v Speaker 2>have they spent in jail? How much time will they

0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:49.280
<v Speaker 2>spend in jail? A lot of the time in Mexico,

0:37:49.440 --> 0:37:52.920
<v Speaker 2>things just don't get to court, so there isn't any punishment.

0:37:52.960 --> 0:37:55.359
<v Speaker 2>And that's why we really need to do our best

0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:57.800
<v Speaker 2>to actually try and take the cash out of these criminals'

0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:01.640
<v Speaker 2>hands so they don't get too powerful, that politicians aren't

0:38:01.719 --> 0:38:03.839
<v Speaker 2>influenced by these cartails.

0:38:04.000 --> 0:38:06.680
<v Speaker 1>Now, the final cocaine.

0:38:06.200 --> 0:38:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Episode that is that is me knocking on that door.

0:38:10.080 --> 0:38:13.120
<v Speaker 2>The cocaine episode is me going to that's the last,

0:38:13.160 --> 0:38:16.719
<v Speaker 2>that's the last one. Bring it All home Coming and

0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:19.160
<v Speaker 2>it's called bringing It Home. And in that episode though,

0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:22.040
<v Speaker 2>we do speak to Matt Rippon, who is the Deputy

0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:27.480
<v Speaker 2>CEO of the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, and he says

0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:30.800
<v Speaker 2>in that episode that in his thirty years of policing,

0:38:31.320 --> 0:38:37.440
<v Speaker 2>he's never seen more cocaine in Australia. Really, yes, thirty

0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:38.880
<v Speaker 2>years the worst he's seen it.

0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:43.920
<v Speaker 1>And what's the final word on cocaine in Australia.

0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:47.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, we talked to Kirsty Schofield as well, she's the

0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Assistant Commissioner at the AFP and she's in charge of

0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Crime Command. And I asked the question, what do we do.

0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Do we just give up? You say, hey, throw our

0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:59.799
<v Speaker 2>hands in the air and say cocaine is too big,

0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:01.600
<v Speaker 2>just can't stop it. And she's like, no, no, we

0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:06.560
<v Speaker 2>have to actually try and keep putting pressure on these

0:39:06.600 --> 0:39:09.560
<v Speaker 2>criminal groups and making it she says the words hostile,

0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:13.080
<v Speaker 2>making it hostile, and then to operate, take their cash

0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:16.600
<v Speaker 2>off and take their cars off them. She said that,

0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:19.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's some people who've complained they don't care

0:39:19.719 --> 0:39:21.880
<v Speaker 2>about going to jail, but just don't take my house.

0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:27.040
<v Speaker 2>So they're worried about losing their assets because allegedly some

0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:29.279
<v Speaker 2>people when they go inside jail, they still may be

0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:32.000
<v Speaker 2>able to find a mobile phone. So if they need

0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:35.279
<v Speaker 2>to move drugs, they can probably do it there. And

0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:38.600
<v Speaker 2>they've got to be a time on their hands, a

0:39:38.640 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of thinking, a lot of phone calls, send out

0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:43.760
<v Speaker 2>if you want that messages or perhaps signal messages.

0:39:44.000 --> 0:39:48.240
<v Speaker 1>Even in Australia, squeaky clean place that it is. If

0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:52.440
<v Speaker 1>a prisoner has enough money, probably they can get a

0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:53.600
<v Speaker 1>few favors done.

0:39:53.880 --> 0:39:57.440
<v Speaker 2>They probably can't or what if it's not money, Maybe

0:39:57.480 --> 0:40:00.400
<v Speaker 2>the money buys them people on the out side of

0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:02.560
<v Speaker 2>the tail to perhaps go and knock on a few

0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.759
<v Speaker 2>prison guards doors all over the house and say, oh,

0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:09.600
<v Speaker 2>I know your daughter goes to a zach sat Margaret's

0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:11.160
<v Speaker 2>How's how's she going?

0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:13.279
<v Speaker 1>No one is, And that's the point. So they can

0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:14.600
<v Speaker 1>knock on your door, then knock.

0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:18.279
<v Speaker 2>And it's so easy to find people. You know, you

0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:21.799
<v Speaker 2>can't you can't stop against that. But if you can

0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:24.239
<v Speaker 2>take the cash out of the big fish's hands, if

0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:28.000
<v Speaker 2>you can catch them, then I'd rather see one hundred

0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:30.520
<v Speaker 2>drug dealers with a million dollars in their pockets than

0:40:30.600 --> 0:40:32.520
<v Speaker 2>one with a one hundred million dollars in their pocket.

0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes, good point. Where can we find your podcast?

0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:38.560
<v Speaker 2>So the best place to go and find it is

0:40:38.560 --> 0:40:41.920
<v Speaker 2>with a subscription to The Herald's Son. Harold's Son is

0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:44.600
<v Speaker 2>a great newspaper, the offices of which we are sitting

0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:47.279
<v Speaker 2>in right now. So jump on that. It's in the

0:40:47.320 --> 0:40:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Herald Sun app. You can also get it on Spotify

0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:53.799
<v Speaker 2>and Apple, And on Apple it's on crime x which

0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:57.040
<v Speaker 2>you can get access to a whole back catalog, which

0:40:57.080 --> 0:41:02.360
<v Speaker 2>I would argue is better than Netflix of crime podcasts

0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:05.560
<v Speaker 2>better than Netflix, better than Netflix should be our new matter.

0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:09.239
<v Speaker 2>I think Netflix is overrated, to be honest, It's just

0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:12.879
<v Speaker 2>it's struggled in the last few years. So I back

0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:13.560
<v Speaker 2>in Crime.

0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:18.560
<v Speaker 1>X Crime X is it. Thanks and we'll talk to

0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:21.880
<v Speaker 1>you another day when you have done another series.

0:41:22.280 --> 0:41:24.680
<v Speaker 2>All pressures on now, Thanks Roller, Thank.

0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:31.920
<v Speaker 1>You, thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday

0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:36.319
<v Speaker 1>Herald Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is

0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:40.360
<v Speaker 1>Johnty Burton. For my columns, features and more, go to

0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:46.959
<v Speaker 1>Heraldsun dot com dot au forward slash Andrew rule one word.

0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:52.960
<v Speaker 1>For advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news

0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:57.000
<v Speaker 1>dot com dot au. That is all one word news

0:41:57.000 --> 0:42:02.840
<v Speaker 1>podcasts sold. And if you want further information about this episode,

0:42:03.080 --> 0:42:05.200
<v Speaker 1>links are in the description.