1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: It's the phenomenal wealth generated in places of phenomenal poverty 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: leads to these grotesque situations where nothing's impossible, anything can 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: be bought, anybody can be brought. 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: She expects him to say, oh, yeah, yeah, drugs bad, 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: don't do it, and he's like, nah, I had a 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: lot of fun. 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: What we've got now is a giant version of the 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: American prohibition experiment of the nineteen twenties, which created the 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: modern mafia. I'm Andrew rule is his love and crimes. 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: Today we have the pleasure and the privilege of talking 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: to my longtime colleague Stephen Drill. Stephen, I've been away 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: researching various things out of the way places overseas, such 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: as Albania. 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: It's a good place to go where there are. 15 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: Many large, shiny mercedes. 16 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 2: And very wealthy people there. 17 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: Yes, I would think so poverty cheek by jail with wealth. 18 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: What have you said previously? Behind every fortune is a crime? 19 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: I didn't make that up. That was somebody else's claims. 20 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: Oh no, it's from literature. It has been said before, 21 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: behind every great fortune, it's a crime. And I suspect 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: that in some countries. You see that in every glossy 23 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: hotel or every casino casino. I think so. I think 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: that's true. But while I've been over there, you know, 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: just basically hanging around and watching, You've been here busy 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: doing stuff. 27 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: I've been chipping away for the last twelve months on a. 28 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: Podcast, chipping away for twelve months, and this podcast is 29 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: about cocaine. 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 2: It is about cocaine. I've teamed up with two reporters 31 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: from the Time, so the Times and the Sunday Times. 32 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: They're very separate newspapers, even though they're in the same 33 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: building on the same floor. It's a law in the 34 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: UK that can't be edited by the same people. So 35 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: Times in Sunday Times very pre eminent publications, and we've 36 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: all worked together. We've gone to six countries, traveled fifty 37 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: thousand kilometers to look at the aids of the cocaine trade. 38 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: We've gone from Colombia where it's grown, all the way 39 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: over to England where we've spoken to people who've been 40 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: caught in the crossfire, and we've gone to Jubai, and 41 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: then we've actually ended up right back here in Australia 42 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: to where the money is allegedly launded. 43 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: And even on a global scale. Australia's part in this 44 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: is significant? Is that true? 45 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: Australia's part is extremely significant in this, Andrew. 46 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: You're not just exaggerating relevant, No, I'm not. 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: No, No, actually no, I genuinely am not. Like, it's 48 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: surprising how important Australia has become in the global cocaine trade. 49 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: And that's because of one thing. 50 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: We pay too much for it, pay way too much 51 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: over it. 52 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: And not only do we pay too much for it, 53 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: we love paying too much for it. People here are like, 54 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: you know what, I've got some coke. I've got a 55 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 2: bag of coke on. I'm posh because I can afford 56 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: to go and spend three hundred dollars to put this 57 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: stuff up my nose. Okay, So excellent marketing it is. 58 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: Isn't it to waste money? I can afford to waste money. 59 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: It's it's it's like buying a Lamborghini. 60 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: Or lighting your cigar with a one hundred dollar note. 61 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much, you know, or destroying your life. And 62 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: it's funny. Everyone I talked to who's sort of my 63 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: age about this, I've done this podcast and cocaine, they're 64 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: like they have a story about a bloke who's blown 65 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 2: up his marriage because he's done too much cocaine. 66 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: Everyone knows somebody. 67 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: Everyone knows somebody. I was in the I was in 68 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: the Quantus lounge out the other day because I was 69 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: coming back from Sydney and I just randomly got talking 70 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 2: to this bloke. 71 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: And Sydney's the place to hear those stories. 72 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: Sydney is, but it's in Melbourne. 73 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: Of course it is. But I've got a question where 74 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: someone has done a very stupid thing. I'd say a 75 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: Christmas party or some event where they've played up and 76 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: out of character. You'd think done something really rash and 77 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: silly and sexist and predatory. But how do you think 78 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: sometimes it's because they're under the influence. 79 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: Of the Colombian marching powder. 80 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: Think, Yeah, I'm just asking. 81 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: I would think that there's two parts to that question. 82 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: One is they're stupid and they should have done it. 83 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: But also, if you're my age, if you've had too 84 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: many beers, you kind of just fall asleep, Whereas if 85 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: you're still up and about in a position where you 86 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: can be a bit stupid and a bit predatory, or 87 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: then you probably may have had some chemical assistance as well. 88 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: I see I've resigned to spend more time with my 89 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: family because there was a sadness at the Christmas party 90 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: or whatever that could be it. 91 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: There's lots of potential reasons, but theoretically it might be 92 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: theoretically a reason why some blokes who should know better, 93 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: and sadly it's usually blokes get caught in those situations 94 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: they do. 95 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: Now, tell me what you've found out about the cocaine trade. 96 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: That is going to shock and amaze me and shock 97 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: and amaze our listeners. 98 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: What we've done in the podcast is really look at 99 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: the business of cocaine, so we're trying to not so 100 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: much have a view of whether it's right or wrong. 101 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: We're not saying legalize it, We're not saying, you know, 102 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: ban it. We're just wondering did the war on drugs 103 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: kind of work? And when you start looking at the 104 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: business side of things, you realize it's going to be 105 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: a very difficult thing for anyone to stop. Because the 106 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 2: markup from Colombia to here in Australia, it's a sixty 107 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 2: four million percent markup. 108 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: Sixty four million percent markt at the base point. 109 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: When it's a coca leaf in Colombia, it's worth about 110 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: point zero zero zero nine of a cent here, that's 111 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: for a gram. Here in Australia, you can pay up 112 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: to five hundred dollars for a gramm of cocaine depending 113 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: on the purity. And the purity in Australia on the 114 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: streets it ranges from twenty two percent pure cocaine in 115 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: the gram you're getting to sixty percent and that's about it. 116 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: So it's been cut with all sorts of random stuff 117 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: like love amasole, which is a worm killer in chickens 118 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 2: and cattle, but it looks like cocaine. So it's popular 119 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: as a cutting agent, but. 120 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: Not something I'd want to put into my body. 121 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: No, But when you're trying to be posh and thinking 122 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: you're fantastic and you're showing off to your friends about 123 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 2: how much money you have because you can go and 124 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: buy cocaine, well perhaps you don't care. 125 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: Interesting the history of it. It's not as new drug 126 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: as a lot of us imagine, although it's you know, 127 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: its popularity in the last twenty five years has exploded, 128 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: I guess. But I can recall as a very young 129 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: reporter talking to old time crooks. So I'm talking about 130 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties talking to people who were around during 131 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: World War Two and these old guys that had spent 132 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, they run robbers and all the rest of it. 133 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: Very old time Ozzie crooks. And they talked about back 134 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: in the old days in the forties and fifties grouse 135 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: snow ten bobbago. 136 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah, So we're still in Australia. 137 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: It was the forties. The crooks, crooks in those days 138 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: call it snow and they used to use it. And 139 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: I think it goes all the way back to World 140 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: War One, when World War One veterans returned from the 141 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: trenches of Europe with cocaine habits. It had been given 142 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: to them to keep going, keep them awake, keep them up, 143 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: keep them brave, painkiller whatever. And so there were men 144 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: returning in nineteen ninety nineteen twenty with cocaine habits. 145 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: That's a problem. 146 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: And if one of the earliest references you'll see in 147 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 1: Australia is to people being charged over it in around 148 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, amazing a one hundred years ago has been 149 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: around for a while. 150 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: I mean people in Colombia have been eating the coca 151 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: leaves just for thousands of years. To sort of as 152 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: an appetite supressant and for medicinal purposes. I meant, but 153 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 2: having one or two coca leaves is different to the 154 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: supercharged stuff today. But it's interesting to know that it 155 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: is going been there for a while. I mean, Coca 156 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: Cola itself was said to have had cocaine in it once. 157 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: That's the sort of theory. And that was taken out 158 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: and it wasn't. Sherlock Holmes and the snuff boxes, is 159 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: that not cocaine? 160 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: Probably? 161 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's nothing new under the sun. But what 162 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: is new is that the biking gangs, the crime gangs, 163 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: they've got so much better. And it's this thing on 164 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: the desk. It's a mobile phone. Because twenty years ago 165 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: in Colombia, if you wanted to try and move a 166 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: quilo of cocaine, how do you do that? How do 167 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 2: you talk to someone in Australia about that? But now 168 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: you're not moving a kilo, you're moving a ton, you're 169 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: moving one hundred tons and you want to talk to 170 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: someone in Australia, Well you've got a message app, you 171 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: can do it. 172 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: Ok. How are the big operators moving the stuff? I 173 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: mean obviously ships, but yeah, bits and pieces, so there's 174 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: some aeroplanes. 175 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: Well, the Americans spending a lot of money to support 176 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: the Columbian police to try and stop cocaine coming into America. 177 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 2: It's a tough job, but one thing in the advantage 178 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: for the Americans, unlike Mexico, the land the geography between 179 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: Colombia and Mexico that you can't drive it. There's no 180 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: way to get it through. You have to get the 181 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: stuff out through the water. There's no roads between Columbia 182 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: and Mexico that the mountains are too high, so that 183 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: gives a police a chance to stop it coming out 184 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: on vessels from the north of Colombia and the Caribbean Sea. 185 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: So pretty much it's as hard a border as you 186 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: could possibly get. But what's happened with the cocaine trade 187 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 2: is they've gone, well, we can't go over it, we 188 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: can't go under we'll have to go through it. So 189 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: they've gone over the hills into Brazil, and a lot 190 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 2: of the cocaine now is going through that direction, and 191 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: that's something they call the Southern Cone, which is a 192 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: very boring way of saying that going through Argentina. So 193 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: it's going down the Pirana and now forgive me if 194 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: you've got some Spanish speakers listening if I've pronounced that incorrectly. 195 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: But it goes out through the Piranha River, which is 196 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: about four thousand miles, and that it goes into Uruguay 197 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: and comes out through Argentina as well, So it's coming 198 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: through every other possible which way. It's like putting a 199 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: piece of wood in front tap while the water is 200 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 2: just going to get around the piece of wood. And 201 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: the difference is now, in twenty sixteen, we used to 202 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 2: have aerial spraying crop spraying of cocaine plants in Columbia. 203 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: Now that changed. The government said, look, we're worried about 204 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 2: harming local people and giving them cancer because the chemicals 205 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: aren't great, so let's stop it. That has meant that 206 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: the amount of coca plants growing has at least doubled, 207 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: if not trebled, since twenty sixteen. And also the FARC, 208 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 2: which is FARC I'm not swearing on this podcast, is 209 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: the revolutionary forces in Colombia did a peace deal with 210 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: the Colombian government in about twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, and 211 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: what that meant was they sort of stopped They called 212 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: it narco terrorism. They stopped fighting with the Colombian government. 213 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: But it's also meant there's no go areas in Colombia 214 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: where the government troops just won't go. The fark soldiers 215 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: actually controllers areas, which has meant, well, there's more chance 216 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: of no one having eyes on those coca plants, and 217 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: the crops have got bigger. But what it's also done 218 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: is it's created a bit more of an open market 219 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: because once the revolutionary forces stopped being so dominant and 220 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: having to fight and having to sell the cocaine to 221 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: fund their terrorism in Columbia, well, other jokers have gone 222 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: into the trade. And your friends in Albania where you 223 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: just went to, they managed to get some plane chickets 224 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: to Bogata and they've set up shop there. They're going 225 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 2: out and they're taking a lot of drugs through Ecuador 226 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: as well. So there's a new smuggling route out through Ecuador, 227 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: which previously was relatively stable. And last year we saw 228 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: pictures on the television of armed gangs going into a 229 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: live TV studio and shooting people live on air, and 230 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 2: the president was assassinated. 231 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: Yes, it's the phenomenal wealth generated in places of phenomenal 232 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: property leads to these grotesque situations where nothing's impossible, anything 233 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: can be bought, anybody can be brought, Prostitution goes through 234 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: the roof, everything goes. 235 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. But and what I find frustrating is that the 236 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: same people who will take their cocaine on the weekend, 237 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: they'll sit there and brag about it. They show off 238 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: to their friends, They'll be proud to pay three hundred 239 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: dollars because they're so posh. Their choices are causing this violence. 240 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: They are the demand that is causing the supply. 241 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: Very true. One often suspects that there's a bit of 242 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: winking and nodding around the place that a lot of 243 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: people who you know talk about cocaine being bad news 244 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: and the way we are really but we're genuine in 245 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: their private life. They're not nearly as critical I would 246 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: some lawyers, judges, judges, Yeah, maybe some agents, oh, I 247 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: think so real. Also, the drug dealers aren't stupid, they've 248 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: gone where the cash is. And now sports people they 249 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: there has been some reports in the paper about some 250 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: professional sports people. They do get drug tested more often 251 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: than the rest of the community. It's not fattening. 252 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: I don't know how true that is that I think 253 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: people sometimes if they were super controlled, if they didn't 254 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: drink alcohol with it, maybe it's not fattening, but I 255 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: think a lot of people would get on the beers 256 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 2: and then get on the gear. 257 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: It is the perfect jockey drug because jockeys cannot eat, 258 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're starving themselves for a living, and they 259 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: would love to eat, and they'd love to drink and 260 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: they can't, so they can't. They're not even drinking water. 261 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: A lot of them are not even water. They're drinking 262 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: tiny little bits of water. They ride dehydrated, which is 263 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: why they're often you know, angry well and make mistakes. Yeah, yeah, 264 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: they do. That's why sometimes you see mistakes made. And 265 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: so it's an ideal drug for particularly jockeys for that. 266 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: For that reason, maybe even let's say racing car drivers, 267 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: small guys who've got to stay light. Money is not 268 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: a real problem. 269 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: For them, but they could get away with it. And 270 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 2: also cocaine does in th coome out of your system 271 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: a little bit more quickly than most other drugs. 272 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it suits some lifestyles. It sort of suits 273 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: them as a substitute for the more conventional mind altering 274 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: substances like be it one and someone. 275 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: And I also see all the stats now about kids 276 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: aren't drinking as much, and that just means they're getting 277 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: off their heads on other spect So I'm going to 278 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: mate who works for a brewering company, is like, what's 279 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: going on with these kids? 280 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: They're not drinking anymore, and. 281 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: It's because they're doing drugs. You know. I spoke to 282 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: someone else who had young children and at a private school, 283 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: and thirteen year olds are on all sorts of other substances, 284 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: and it's only going to get more and more common. 285 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: It becomes a really tough one. What do we do. 286 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: Do we just throw our hands in the air and 287 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: say that's it, we let all drugs through through the door. 288 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. 289 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: I'm not of that view because a the crime groups 290 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: aren't going to just go, oh yeah, what we're Cocaine's legal. Now, 291 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to stop selling this and making you know, 292 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: three hundred dollars a gram. I'll go onto something else. 293 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: It's less profitable. I doubt that's going to happen. And 294 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: if they do, they'll go onto something else like fentanyl, 295 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: which is cheap to make and even more. 296 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: Deadly as yes, that's right, fental wick and stuff it's 297 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: an interesting thing. Now you've told us the production's gone up, 298 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: the prices are high at the same time, and this 299 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: is forced out of South America along various routes. It 300 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: finds its natural level, it finds its way to the surface, 301 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: it gets it finds its sway to the markets. 302 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: So it also doesn't go directly from South America to Sydney. 303 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: What will happen is it will go all over the place. 304 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: It will pinball around the world in a way to 305 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: try and evade authorities. Because if they see a ship 306 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: coming straight from South America, from Ecuador or from Columbia, 307 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: they're going to go, hang on, let's go and check 308 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: this out. But say it's been to Canada. Say it's 309 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: been to Hong Kong. So it's been to France, so 310 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: it's been to China. 311 00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: Well not as obvious. 312 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: It's not as obvious. And those ships, they can go 313 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: from a beatersz quite easily, because that's how the global 314 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: trade does work. 315 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if it's the same ship, it's traceable, of course, 316 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: but if it's offloading somewhere, then you put it on 317 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: the one that originates in Canada, which it looks in 318 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: an innocent origin port of origin. You need to get 319 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: on the one that's the innocent, relatively innocent port of origin. 320 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 2: You've got someone on the inside. You know which containers 321 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: are going to be checked exactly. Not because if we 322 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: did that, if we su checked every single container that 323 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: came into the ports of Sydney or Melbourne. 324 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: We'd find a lot of tobacco. 325 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: We would find a lot of tobacco. We would, but 326 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: we'd never get our kids Christmas presents because they'd all 327 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: be sitting on the dock. 328 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: Is that a bad thing? I kind of like Cama. 329 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: The kids toys are pretty cheap there, especially good for 330 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 2: other children's birthday parties. So it just wouldn't work. When 331 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: you look at the tobacco. They're finding ten million cigarettes 332 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: a week in Melbourne alone. And I can go down 333 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: to my local milk bar and I'm not saying where 334 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 2: I live. I can go down to a milk bar 335 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: which may be near my house or not, and they're 336 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 2: behind the counter. They're everywhere. 337 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: Of course, yes, so we can't. And when governments produced 338 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: figures health departments saying that smoking is almost extinct because 339 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: no one's smoking anymore, because there's not much excise because 340 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: they're not selling it. But the reality is there's plenty 341 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: of people smoking, but they're all smoking the cheap stuff. 342 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: The jop and the imputs well. It just shows you 343 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: how deluded authorities can be, particularly if they want to be. 344 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 2: Fifty seven dollars for a pack of smokes. It's going 345 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: to really encourage alternative markets. 346 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: I would have thought so. The great law of unexpected outcomes, 347 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, the unintended unintended consequences is far better phrase. 348 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: Speaking of unintended consequences. One of the problems with the 349 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 2: drug trade is you may not even be a drug user, 350 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 2: but it's not far from your door. And we spoke 351 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: to Tim Edwards, whose daughter Ali, she was murdered outside 352 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 2: a pub on Christmas Eve in the UK. She went 353 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: outside for a cigarette and it's Christmas Eve in the UK. 354 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: It's pretty cold. She's out there. 355 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: Having a drink. 356 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: And in the UK on Christmas Eve, if you're in 357 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 2: your twenties, you're at the pub. It is one of 358 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 2: the best nights of the year. Everyone's out and about. 359 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: There was a young fellow there by the name of 360 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: Connor Schapman. He's been found guilty, he's been in jailed 361 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 2: for forty eight years for this. He turns up at 362 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: that pub, the Wallersley Pub in the world and opens 363 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: fire with a machine gun. Why did he do this 364 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: Because somebody had wrapped up his mate the day before. 365 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: Oh so he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. 366 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: And because of that, our family's lost a loved one, 367 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: twenty six year old girl who is no longer with us. 368 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 2: And these are the things that we sort of forget 369 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: about the drug trader, is that you can be a victim. 370 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: Even there's two surfers in Perth a couple of weeks 371 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: in Perth, boys in Mexico. In Mexico, they got murdered 372 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: by people linked to the cartels because they were victims 373 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: of a robbery and they tried to well we don't 374 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: know exactly the circumstances, but they have been shot by 375 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: people connected to the cartels. 376 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: Of course, terrible business. 377 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: There is real problems with the cocaine trade, and I 378 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 2: think people probably forget, you know, their choices do have consequences, 379 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 2: not just for them. 380 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: Now you've already released three episodes of this most excellent series. 381 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: You've got a total of eight. 382 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 2: What is the fourth one fourth episode is called the 383 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: pineapple Trader. It's about a beller called Pete Costa. 384 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah in the Netherlands. Sounds like a Dutch. 385 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 2: Name, yeah it is, but Pete is is pineapple in Dutch. 386 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: So he was the pineapple guy from Costa Rica because 387 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: he always kept going there and that became his nickname. 388 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: But he was not just bringing pineapples back in the 389 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: actually being containers. He was also bringing back cocaine. Was 390 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: he He was making a fair bit of money about this, 391 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: and he was he was kind of I like sort 392 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: of oil or water. He just sort of slid through 393 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: everywhere and no one seemed to notice him as he 394 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: built his empire. But then he got a bit angry. 395 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 2: Someone had ripped him off into property deal to the 396 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: tune of about one hundred million dollars, and it started 397 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: a bit of a dispute, and mister Costa then thought 398 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 2: it was a good idea to set up a torture chamber. 399 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 2: So he went to some lengths. He got a shipping container, 400 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: buried it underground, covered the whole thing in plastic, and 401 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 2: had a dentist chair all set up ready to go. 402 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: And next to the dentist chair was scalpels and hammers 403 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: and drills ready to go. So he's now serving some 404 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: time for that, but. 405 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: All over a property deal. We'll have a property deal. 406 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 2: And he'd managed to sort of keep things professional for 407 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: a long time, but when it came to the crunch, 408 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: he got a bit a bit greedy. And we don't 409 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: know how many people lost their fingers or their thumbs 410 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 2: or their toes in that torture chamber, but it was 411 00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: very well set up. 412 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: That very spooky. That that's episode four. What's episode five? 413 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: Episode five ninety testing my memory? Episode five we go 414 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 2: look it up. Episode five we go to Dubai where 415 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: we're chasing the money. So follow the money, Follow the 416 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: money because another thing that's sort of it's great to 417 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: make money out of cocaine, but what you have to 418 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: do is actually try and get rid of it, and 419 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: you can't just go and pop it in a bank. 420 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: So there was a guy called called Abdullah al Falasi 421 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: who's in jail for nine years as we speak. He 422 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 2: decided to actually get cash, wrap it up in plastic, 423 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: chuck it in suitcases and get them perhaps naive or 424 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 2: naive young women who were beauty sell on staff in 425 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 2: the pandemic in the UK and just pop them on 426 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: a plane to Dubai for a few days, all expenses 427 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: page and you get three thousand dollars cash And all 428 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 2: you have to do was jump on a business class 429 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 2: flight with seven bags filled with pounds up to four 430 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: and a half million pounds per trip. 431 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: Is that right? Carry money? 432 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: Carry money? They moved at least one hundred million pounds 433 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: this way over a couple of years until it got 434 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: wound up. 435 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: And they just say nothing to declare that to be that. 436 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: No, you could declare it because in Jubai, you know, 437 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: five million pounds is just it's just walking around money there. 438 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: So if you went to the there's no problem taking 439 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: turn up. 440 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 2: With a piece of paper saying this is money from 441 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: our gold trading business, and declare it. Then you get 442 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 2: it gets counted, so they have actual counting machines. 443 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: At the airport, and then what would happen. 444 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 2: Then they give you a piece of paper and declare 445 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: it clean, and you go and pop it in the. 446 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: Bank, in the bank, in the bank. 447 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: That's wonderful, all good, And you might just be paying 448 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: off some friends who have been dealing cocaine or supplying 449 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: you with that cocaine from Dubai and also Dubai has 450 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 2: become a bit of a haven for criminals, so scaleyways 451 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: go there, Australian Australian Scaley wags. Yes, there's been a 452 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: fellow called Angelo Pandelli who's on our most Wanted list, 453 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: who has bought a property over there. It's currently being 454 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 2: gutted and rebuilt on the Palm Mirror, that sort of 455 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: fancy man made island that you can see from the sky, 456 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 2: and they're kind of it's a good place to live, 457 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: I would imagine, because they're like who bedroom houses. 458 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: Good in its way. Yeah, I mean, it's like the 459 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: Truman Show dropped into a desert where people in long 460 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: white headdresses drive rain drovers and may well run over you. 461 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's a weird place. You can't just go 462 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: and walk around. 463 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: On the street because if they run over you, they 464 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: don't care because no one's going to prosecute them. 465 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: There's perhaps one rule for the locals and one rule 466 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: for the It is bad. 467 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: I think if you're the second cousin could run over 468 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: you without any problems. 469 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: Possibly, Yes, Well, you know, there's there's other stories about 470 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: there I can think of, which I may not mention. 471 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 2: But yeah, so there's lots of cash there and that's 472 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: where they're doing the deals as well. It's become an 473 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: international cocaine hub. 474 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: Is it okay? And that's just the a moral nature. 475 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: Of well, I think they're just interested in trying to 476 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: get some money in and from their point of view, 477 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: they're like, well, we're not having the drugs here because 478 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: it's very expensive and difficult to find drugs in Jubai's 479 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: probably it's hard to find a beer. 480 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're sort of becoming the Switzerland of the Middle East. 481 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, we don't care how you making money, 482 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: but we we'll mind it for you. 483 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 2: Mind for you. 484 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: We've got some lovely hotel suite to stay in when 485 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: you come here to handle it. 486 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 2: And then they've also got fair bit of gold trading. 487 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 2: There's a gold souk in Dubai whether you can go 488 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: and trade anything, and one of our colleagues went under 489 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: color and spoke to a trader there and said, I 490 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 2: want to buy one hundred and eight thousand pounds worth 491 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: of gold, and there's an audio recording of it. He's like, well, 492 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: just between us, the money came from crime, do you care? 493 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: And the local gold trader who we've given a new 494 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: name in the podcast to protect him, and he goes, yeah, 495 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: I don't care wherever it comes from, just go for it. 496 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: So that's where the money sort of rolls up. And 497 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: then eventually it's got to get back into Australia and 498 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 2: moved around the world again to eat. 499 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: So they're turning dirty cash into gold. 500 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: Dirty cash into gold, and then you can take it 501 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: in your. 502 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: Bags portable and anonymous. 503 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 2: Anonymous melts it down, so could company, or you can 504 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 2: melt it down into jewelry, wear it, wear it. So 505 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: what if you're wearing. 506 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: Funny how the crook's always like that heavy gold stuff? 507 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: Heavy gold stuff. I mean, what if you have a 508 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: really fancy necklace that maybe you know, four or five ounces, 509 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: or maybe you get a killer of it, or maybe 510 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: you did heavy rings or all sorts of stuff. You 511 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: can probably walk through the airport with half a million 512 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: dollars worth. 513 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: Of funny what crooks gather. Heavy jewelry is one of 514 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: the things, but reptile fish in the paintings, all sorts 515 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: of funny things. 516 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: It's a bit. Yeah, your art is a big way 517 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: to launder money as well. And there's also a bit. 518 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: Of old one like collectible one. 519 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, collectible one, and then if it gets smashed you 520 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: can claim it on insurance smashed or perhaps drunk. 521 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: You never know, so I don't want to test your 522 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: memory too much. But what would episode six be? 523 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 2: Episode six is also injured bias. We had a couple 524 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: episodes there and then we end up coming back into Australia. 525 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: Where we the Times guys came here too. 526 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 2: I did that one, so we all sort of we 527 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 2: separated the jobs out and I went and knocked on 528 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: a door at a house in Melbourne which was accused 529 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 2: of being the process of crime, and had a very 530 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: lengthy chat with one of the people there who said 531 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 2: they weren't money Launders. They were driving a four hundred 532 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 2: thousand dollars Mercedes because they were doing big business. And 533 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 2: you can't drive around in a day or a Toyota 534 00:26:58,359 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 2: because it wouldn't you wouldn't look the part. 535 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: Well let's you know, look look at the state agents 536 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: they do. 537 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: I don't know how they afford those cars though. 538 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: But they see it as part of the image. Well, 539 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, they take the view. Clients don't want to 540 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: use somebody who's not successful enough to look successful. It's 541 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: part of the psychologists. 542 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 2: Are terrible though. That's yeah, you have bad taste. 543 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: Yeah they look like spiffs. 544 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be. So that's where we've wound up. 545 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 2: We followed the whole thing, the cash, all the way 546 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 2: around the. 547 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,959 Speaker 1: World, and how was the reception when you're knocked on 548 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: that door? 549 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: They it was a bit frosty to start with. They said, 550 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 2: hang on, we're not involved in it anyway. And I 551 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 2: went okay, So went not on the neighbor's door and 552 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: I said, have you seen anyone move in the last 553 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: few months. They're like, no, that's the same people. So 554 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 2: I went back and asked again. I go, oh, they say, 555 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: you haven't moved. What's happening And they said, look, we're 556 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: not We're not directly involved, but we've got some relatives 557 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 2: were involved, and they sort of they were able to detail, 558 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: sort of in quite a large amount of depth, why 559 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 2: the police were wrong about their assertions. And that's still 560 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 2: a matter that's going through the courts as we speak. 561 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 2: Probably later in the year they might come back on. 562 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: But this has all to do with laundering money. 563 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: Laundering money, that's the allegations. 564 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: Waundering money is a big thing isn't it really around 565 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: the world. And when it comes to mainly drug money, 566 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: really by large, drug money is well, not not exclusively, 567 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: but that's the big one. 568 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 2: It's where the problem is as well, because if you 569 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: end up with cash, if you're trying to run a business, 570 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: say a restaurant, that might be an obvious way to 571 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: launder some cash. How do you know how many people 572 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: came in that day for a meal? You say you 573 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: might have ten customers, you might say there was five hundred. 574 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: If they all pay cash, maybe that's really who came in. 575 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 2: But if you're opening up a legitimate restaurant next door 576 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: to one that's been used for money. 577 00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: Laundering motels the same, how does that work? Well, it 578 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: does not fair. I mean they'll rack it up in 579 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: the Riverina and this will have happened across the world. 580 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: It's not unique to anywhere. But the mafia money from 581 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: in those days, cannabis buy a motel in countrytown, put 582 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: a patsy manager in and the reality is the motel 583 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: might run it forty percent occupancy. It's just just viable nearly, 584 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: but when the mafia r on it, you know suddenly 585 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: it's because they throwing they're throwing money in the till 586 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: it's fake. Just not washing the sheets anymore, because you 587 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: know they're not actually getting people through the door. They 588 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: just make it. 589 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: Look as if it is. 590 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: Of course, the book profits twelve months later. Oh my god, 591 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: they've doubled their income. It's wonderful. And then they can 592 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: put it on the market and sell it for an 593 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: inflated price to some poor person who's then going to 594 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: go broke. They do the double, and then the new 595 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: person goes broke because it's you, having retired from your 596 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: job and you said, let's move to the country and 597 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: buy this beautiful hotel. And then guess what, you sell 598 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: it because you broke, and they buy it back and 599 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: do it all again. 600 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: That's genius, just perpetual motion, one born every minute. Yes, 601 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 2: but that would happen if you had someone from the city. 602 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: Not realizing. 603 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: Our friend Tony mog Bell owned something like seventeen boutiques 604 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: at some station. He would have a Patsy boutique shops 605 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: all sorts of things, but often clothes, and he put 606 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: a Patsy in and said, you know, you can have 607 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: a salary, you can do what you like. But when 608 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: I say we sell a business. We sell a business, 609 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: and I think really what happened was he be running 610 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: money through the till when. 611 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: He's selling the businesses to himself as well. 612 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, it'd be all different reasons why he'd 613 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: do certain things, but he would buy things like that 614 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: and establish them as false fronts. And you know that's 615 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: what drug people do when they put a lot of 616 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: money to play around with. 617 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 2: Well, and we're talking about sixty billion dollars a year 618 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: just in Australia. 619 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: It's a lot of money. 620 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: So if you think about that. 621 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: Is it enough to square Victoria's debt? 622 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: You I think that's about one hundred and eighty billion 623 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 2: at the moment. But there's a lot of money being 624 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: spent and that's got to go somewhere. Some of it 625 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 2: would go off shore, probably a lot of it. A 626 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: lot of it would be spent on perhaps gambling, maybe 627 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: illegal gambling. There's estimates that for every dollar spent on 628 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 2: the legal gambling markets, there is about eight or ten 629 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 2: that's spent on the illegal markets, is roughly speaking, even. 630 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: In Australian context. 631 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the there's games, remember there's like electronic games, 632 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: which boggle with my mind why anyone. 633 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: Wouldn't do it. I can't believe it. Sometimes eighty times. Yeah. 634 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: So there was like when there was about eight million 635 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: dollars being spent on those e games and there was 636 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: a couple of young kids got caught. They actually stopped 637 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: playing to win and they were betting on themselves losing. 638 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 2: And when I was discussing that with some organized crime investigators, 639 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,479 Speaker 2: they told me that, yeah, there's about eighty million dollars 640 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: being spent on that illegally, it's ten times the size 641 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: of the level market. 642 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 643 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 2: But other than that, yeah, you might buy your own 644 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: product and you might have a gamble a bit, but 645 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: the money's got to go somewhere, and that, to me, 646 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: I think is the real weak point in the trade. 647 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: If the police can do more to make that really 648 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: hard to spend money, yes, which they have to a 649 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: certain extent. They've made it hard to spend money in Australia, 650 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: but they've meant the crooks went overseas, and. 651 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: I think it is hard to spend money in a 652 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: way that can't be traced easily. 653 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: But we love tapping our cards now, so it's a 654 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: little bit harder to actually make up some hairdresser appointments 655 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 2: if they weren't there. 656 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, look, it's the eldest thing in the world. You know, 657 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: years ago when there were corrupt police getting cash payments, 658 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: often significant cash payments in relation to their salaries. I 659 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: remember one of them being interviewed about it, very sad 660 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: man because he'd been caught, and he said, in the end, 661 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: what did I do? You know, a lot of some 662 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: nice suits, some very nice shoes, and I'd go to 663 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: the races and bet on horses. But apart from it, 664 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: I couldn't go and buy you a good bye car, 665 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: buy good cars. I couldn't get first class tickets around 666 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: the world or any of that stuff, because it's obvious. 667 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: So okay, I'll go to the races wearing a nice 668 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: suit and nice shoes, and the following week, I wear 669 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: a different cuitain different shoes, and I bet on horses 670 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: and mostly lose because you mostly do it. And you know, 671 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: cat paying cash at restaurants. He says, you can go 672 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: out and have a good meal and pay the cash. 673 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: But even that leaves you a bit exposed. If you 674 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: know anybody's once, anybody's watching. 675 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you bring your mates along as. 676 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: Well, I've got the hang on how does he thought that. 677 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: We did actually interview or if you don't know. Hamilton 678 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 2: of The Times interviewed a corrupt doc worker in the 679 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: Netherlands and he'd done some time for it. He'd been 680 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: sort of helping drug syndicates for about twenty years move 681 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 2: their drugs. 682 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: He was adore as adore and. 683 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: Then she asked him at the end of the interview, 684 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 2: will so was it worth it? 685 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: What do you think? You know? 686 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 2: And you had twenty years where you had to light 687 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: to your life, and you know, you ended up spending 688 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 2: the money on prostitutes and drugs and all sorts of 689 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 2: other things. And she expects him to say, oh, yeah, yeah, 690 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 2: drugs are bad, don't do it, and he's like, nah, 691 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 2: I had a lot of fun. So you know, for 692 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 2: some people, I think they're happy to live that life 693 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 2: and they want to be be living moment to moment, 694 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 2: but it does come at a cost. And like, if 695 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 2: you've got any sense of trying to not get caught, 696 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 2: then yeah, you can't really spend the money very obviously. 697 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: No, it's an intriguing thing, isn't it. Any form of 698 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: prohibition creates these markets, and what we've got now is 699 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: a giant version of the American prohibition experiment of the 700 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties a hundred years ago, which created essentially the 701 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: modern mafia, the Five Families of New York, and they 702 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: used to cheat each other with onions and tomatoes, lemons, 703 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: you know, and stand over other Italian families or whatever. 704 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: But after prohibition they became these massive international crime cartels. 705 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 1: Prohibition did it for them. And what we've got now 706 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: is not just American alcohol prohibition. What we've got now 707 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: is a global prohibition of certain drugs which has created 708 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: a global market. It's massive. 709 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: And then if you look at Mexico, they had elections 710 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 2: there on Dune the secondest a few weeks ago. Sixty 711 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 2: two politicians were murdered in the lead up to that election. 712 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: That is just that frightening. 713 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 2: It's just a fraction that they announced the war on 714 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: drugs in two thousand and six. There's been at least 715 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 2: four hundred and forty thousand murders. There's one hundred and 716 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 2: ten thousand people missing. Oh it's just so the body's 717 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 2: never found. 718 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: And I don't know why people go for holidays see personally, 719 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: because it's you know, they say, well, if you stick 720 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: to the good resorts and and so on and so forth, 721 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: which is fine. But if you've got a place where 722 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: there are so many willing killers and so many guns 723 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: and all that stuff, it must spill over into from 724 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: time times of violence from time to time. 725 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: Even accidentally, they're so called no go zones because the 726 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: crooks like holiday and in the nice sunny spots too, 727 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 2: they generally don't shoot people there. It's when you're in 728 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: the country areas, on the on the farms and those 729 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: type of places that's it gets done. But I just 730 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 2: say this spillover. Last year there was a person and 731 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 2: we don't know what trade they were involved in, but 732 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: they were sitting down at a cafe we right in 733 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 2: Mexico City and someone walks up and it's actually pretty clever, 734 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: which in a macab sense of the word. They walked 735 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: up as a couple, a man and a woman, and 736 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 2: a woman comes up and says, hey, can I ask 737 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: you for directions or something? And as he's distracted, go 738 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 2: shoots in the back of the head. It was very cold, 739 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 2: cold and it was all caught on CCTV. And the 740 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 2: other thing which Australian needs to guard against his impunity 741 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: because in Mexico, if you go and shoot somebody, even 742 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 2: the killers who kill those Perth surfers, how much time 743 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 2: have they spent in jail? How much time will they 744 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 2: spend in jail? A lot of the time in Mexico, 745 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 2: things just don't get to court, so there isn't any punishment. 746 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 2: And that's why we really need to do our best 747 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 2: to actually try and take the cash out of these criminals' 748 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: hands so they don't get too powerful, that politicians aren't 749 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 2: influenced by these cartails. 750 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: Now, the final cocaine. 751 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: Episode that is that is me knocking on that door. 752 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 2: The cocaine episode is me going to that's the last, 753 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: that's the last one. Bring it All home Coming and 754 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: it's called bringing It Home. And in that episode though, 755 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: we do speak to Matt Rippon, who is the Deputy 756 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: CEO of the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, and he says 757 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,800 Speaker 2: in that episode that in his thirty years of policing, 758 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 2: he's never seen more cocaine in Australia. Really, yes, thirty 759 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 2: years the worst he's seen it. 760 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: And what's the final word on cocaine in Australia. 761 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 2: Well, we talked to Kirsty Schofield as well, she's the 762 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 2: Assistant Commissioner at the AFP and she's in charge of 763 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 2: Crime Command. And I asked the question, what do we do. 764 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 2: Do we just give up? You say, hey, throw our 765 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 2: hands in the air and say cocaine is too big, 766 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 2: just can't stop it. And she's like, no, no, we 767 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: have to actually try and keep putting pressure on these 768 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 2: criminal groups and making it she says the words hostile, 769 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 2: making it hostile, and then to operate, take their cash 770 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: off and take their cars off them. She said that, 771 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 2: you know, there's some people who've complained they don't care 772 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 2: about going to jail, but just don't take my house. 773 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 2: So they're worried about losing their assets because allegedly some 774 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 2: people when they go inside jail, they still may be 775 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 2: able to find a mobile phone. So if they need 776 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 2: to move drugs, they can probably do it there. And 777 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 2: they've got to be a time on their hands, a 778 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: lot of thinking, a lot of phone calls, send out 779 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 2: if you want that messages or perhaps signal messages. 780 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 1: Even in Australia, squeaky clean place that it is. If 781 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: a prisoner has enough money, probably they can get a 782 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: few favors done. 783 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 2: They probably can't or what if it's not money, Maybe 784 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 2: the money buys them people on the out side of 785 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 2: the tail to perhaps go and knock on a few 786 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 2: prison guards doors all over the house and say, oh, 787 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 2: I know your daughter goes to a zach sat Margaret's 788 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 2: How's how's she going? 789 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: No one is, And that's the point. So they can 790 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: knock on your door, then knock. 791 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 2: And it's so easy to find people. You know, you 792 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 2: can't you can't stop against that. But if you can 793 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 2: take the cash out of the big fish's hands, if 794 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 2: you can catch them, then I'd rather see one hundred 795 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 2: drug dealers with a million dollars in their pockets than 796 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: one with a one hundred million dollars in their pocket. 797 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: Yes, good point. Where can we find your podcast? 798 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 2: So the best place to go and find it is 799 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 2: with a subscription to The Herald's Son. Harold's Son is 800 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 2: a great newspaper, the offices of which we are sitting 801 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 2: in right now. So jump on that. It's in the 802 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 2: Herald Sun app. You can also get it on Spotify 803 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 2: and Apple, And on Apple it's on crime x which 804 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: you can get access to a whole back catalog, which 805 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 2: I would argue is better than Netflix of crime podcasts 806 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 2: better than Netflix, better than Netflix should be our new matter. 807 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 2: I think Netflix is overrated, to be honest, It's just 808 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,879 Speaker 2: it's struggled in the last few years. So I back 809 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 2: in Crime. 810 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: X Crime X is it. Thanks and we'll talk to 811 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: you another day when you have done another series. 812 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 2: All pressures on now, Thanks Roller, Thank. 813 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: You, thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday 814 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: Herald Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is 815 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: Johnty Burton. For my columns, features and more, go to 816 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:46,959 Speaker 1: Heraldsun dot com dot au forward slash Andrew rule one word. 817 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: For advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news 818 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: dot com dot au. That is all one word news 819 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: podcasts sold. 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