1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:06,420 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:10,140 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. We talk a lot about cybersecurity on this podcast. 3 00:00:10,140 --> 00:00:13,770 Sean Aylmer: 2022 saw the issue hit the headlines, led by high- 4 00:00:13,770 --> 00:00:17,459 Sean Aylmer: profile attacks on Optus and Medibank. And the effects are long- 5 00:00:17,489 --> 00:00:23,730 Sean Aylmer: lasting. A recent report suggested Optus's brand valuation has fallen by about 1.2 billion 6 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:26,759 Sean Aylmer: dollars as a result of the attack. Even the Australian 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,120 Sean Aylmer: Communications and Media Authority has warned that scammers are still 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,690 Sean Aylmer: impersonating the telco in emails, four months after the breach. 9 00:00:33,870 --> 00:00:37,110 Sean Aylmer: It's no surprise that companies of all sizes are taking the 10 00:00:37,110 --> 00:00:41,190 Sean Aylmer: threat very, very seriously. Charlie Hales is the Asia- Pacific 11 00:00:41,190 --> 00:00:45,479 Sean Aylmer: Managing Director at Waterstons, a UK- based tech company. Charlie, 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:46,500 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:47,880 Charlie Hales: Thanks for having me, Sean. 14 00:00:48,540 --> 00:00:51,840 Sean Aylmer: So did 2022... Is that the year that people sat 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,910 Sean Aylmer: up and took notice of cyber risk more than ever 16 00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:54,570 Sean Aylmer: before, do you think? 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,800 Charlie Hales: Yeah. Here in Australia, absolutely. Obviously, the attacks that happened 18 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,070 Charlie Hales: made people sit up and take note. There had been 19 00:01:02,430 --> 00:01:05,550 Charlie Hales: a few companies that were doing well before that, but 20 00:01:05,550 --> 00:01:07,920 Charlie Hales: it's definitely been a turn in the tide, shall we say. 21 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:14,730 Sean Aylmer: So I mean explain what it was like before and then what it's like... What you've seen the business community do. 22 00:01:15,090 --> 00:01:18,360 Charlie Hales: Yeah, so historically people were talking about it. They were 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,670 Charlie Hales: wondering if they needed to worry about it, if I 24 00:01:20,670 --> 00:01:23,160 Charlie Hales: put it that way. And obviously everyone was saying, " Yes, 25 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,480 Charlie Hales: it's something they need to do." But it was a 26 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,750 Charlie Hales: bit of a case of, if it's not broke, don't 27 00:01:27,750 --> 00:01:31,199 Charlie Hales: fix it. They hadn't seen the breach, they hadn't seen 28 00:01:31,230 --> 00:01:34,350 Charlie Hales: the implications of getting a big breach a lot. It 29 00:01:34,350 --> 00:01:37,050 Charlie Hales: had happened in some industries, but not too many yet 30 00:01:37,050 --> 00:01:40,110 Charlie Hales: here in Australia. And then what happened is obviously, I 31 00:01:40,110 --> 00:01:42,150 Charlie Hales: say overnight, but over a couple of weeks, there was 32 00:01:42,150 --> 00:01:45,450 Charlie Hales: some fairly big breaches and they realised how detrimental it can 33 00:01:45,450 --> 00:01:48,300 Charlie Hales: be for companies, not just from a monetary factor, but 34 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:51,570 Charlie Hales: from a reputation point of view. And they've realised actually 35 00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:54,540 Charlie Hales: it's a board problem. It's not just for their IT 36 00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:57,720 Charlie Hales: team to worry about it anymore. And they've decided actually, " Yes, 37 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,400 Charlie Hales: we need to do something about this. It's on the 38 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,160 Charlie Hales: board agenda and we really need to make sure we're 39 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,320 Charlie Hales: understanding the risks to our business and putting the right 40 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,110 Charlie Hales: protections in place." It is a journey. It's not something 41 00:02:07,110 --> 00:02:09,780 Charlie Hales: that they're going to all fix overnight, but people are 42 00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:12,211 Charlie Hales: definitely starting to get on that journey, shall we say. 43 00:02:12,211 --> 00:02:17,880 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So Waterstons, what role do you play in this ecosystem? 44 00:02:18,450 --> 00:02:21,930 Charlie Hales: Yeah, so we do anything from your cyber strategy at 45 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:26,700 Charlie Hales: that board level, through to managing your cyber state and cybersecurity. 46 00:02:26,700 --> 00:02:28,290 Charlie Hales: So we've got something called a SOC, which is an 47 00:02:28,770 --> 00:02:33,000 Charlie Hales: operation center, basically, managing the security of an organisation. But 48 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:35,820 Charlie Hales: the first thing that we usually do with any clients 49 00:02:35,820 --> 00:02:39,540 Charlie Hales: is a consulting engagement. Looking at your business, looking at 50 00:02:39,540 --> 00:02:41,250 Charlie Hales: the risks from a cyber point of view that are 51 00:02:41,250 --> 00:02:44,940 Charlie Hales: relevant for your business because it's very different, for example, 52 00:02:44,940 --> 00:02:48,389 Charlie Hales: for a university, it's the student data they need to protect. 53 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,430 Charlie Hales: Whereas a manufacturing organisation needs to protect their production line. It's 54 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:56,160 Charlie Hales: what's really important to your business and then making sure 55 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,889 Charlie Hales: that that's protected in the right way. But also it's 56 00:02:58,889 --> 00:03:01,110 Charlie Hales: not just from a technology point of view, which is 57 00:03:01,110 --> 00:03:04,740 Charlie Hales: where companies have historically got it wrong. They've thought, " I 58 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:06,810 Charlie Hales: can install this big piece of tech and then everything's 59 00:03:06,810 --> 00:03:10,919 Charlie Hales: going to be fine." It's people, process and technology. Sometimes 60 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:15,450 Charlie Hales: people can be your biggest vulnerability. We all see those 61 00:03:15,450 --> 00:03:19,080 Charlie Hales: texts that come through, click this link and then they've 62 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,870 Charlie Hales: given the keys to the kingdom of an organisation. And you can 63 00:03:21,870 --> 00:03:23,700 Charlie Hales: have the best security in the world, but someone clicks 64 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:27,510 Charlie Hales: that link, puts their details in, then it's lets someone 65 00:03:27,510 --> 00:03:28,380 Charlie Hales: in through the back door. 66 00:03:29,070 --> 00:03:31,230 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what are the biggest challenges? I mean people 67 00:03:31,260 --> 00:03:34,320 Sean Aylmer: is obviously one. There was a very big cyber attack, 68 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,360 Sean Aylmer: I can't remember if its last year or the year before, 69 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,210 Sean Aylmer: but it was a third party software which was used 70 00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:42,360 Sean Aylmer: by a bunch of organisations around, had been hacked. And 71 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,300 Sean Aylmer: so that had nothing to do with people. I suppose 72 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:48,360 Sean Aylmer: I'm trying to get an idea of where are the 73 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,330 Sean Aylmer: pain points or the weak spots for most organisations. 74 00:03:52,020 --> 00:03:55,200 Charlie Hales: It's the people process and the technology. So it's making sure 75 00:03:55,260 --> 00:03:58,290 Charlie Hales: you look at all three. Looking at one standalone will 76 00:03:58,290 --> 00:04:00,960 Charlie Hales: not solve the problem for a business. So your people, 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,420 Charlie Hales: it's that education for them and it's making it fun. 78 00:04:03,420 --> 00:04:06,900 Charlie Hales: It's not these just little click through educational pieces that 79 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:09,330 Charlie Hales: you do. So it's making sure the people are trained, 80 00:04:09,330 --> 00:04:12,030 Charlie Hales: making sure they understand that information and actually they really 81 00:04:12,030 --> 00:04:15,570 Charlie Hales: understand that it's important if something does happen to shout up as 82 00:04:15,570 --> 00:04:18,089 Charlie Hales: quickly as possible, not to get into trouble but so 83 00:04:18,089 --> 00:04:21,420 Charlie Hales: that that can be resolved. Then it's the process. A 84 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:23,909 Charlie Hales: big thing that companies are looking at now is what 85 00:04:23,970 --> 00:04:26,130 Charlie Hales: do I need to do if we are hacked or 86 00:04:26,130 --> 00:04:29,250 Charlie Hales: when we're hacked actually, which can be the case. And 87 00:04:29,250 --> 00:04:31,109 Charlie Hales: then they have a whole process around that of how 88 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:34,200 Charlie Hales: the company's going to react and also around data and 89 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,339 Charlie Hales: how that's managed. You'll have seen with the recent breaches, 90 00:04:38,339 --> 00:04:40,739 Charlie Hales: there's been a lot of, for example, with Optus is 91 00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:43,860 Charlie Hales: how long they've kept some of that data and they 92 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:46,620 Charlie Hales: can keep that for years and years and it's not 93 00:04:46,620 --> 00:04:48,600 Charlie Hales: changed yet, but I suggest there's going to be some 94 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,050 Charlie Hales: policies that change around that soon. So it's making sure they've got 95 00:04:52,050 --> 00:04:54,810 Charlie Hales: processes around manage that, and then obviously some good technology 96 00:04:54,810 --> 00:04:58,890 Charlie Hales: in place as well to protect their data that they've 97 00:04:58,890 --> 00:05:01,650 Charlie Hales: got where it's important, not around everything. 98 00:05:02,370 --> 00:05:05,669 Sean Aylmer: I'm sure the management of Optus and Medibank wouldn't agree 99 00:05:05,670 --> 00:05:07,950 Sean Aylmer: with me and probably not the shareholders or the customers, 100 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:10,800 Sean Aylmer: but in a sense it was a really welcome wake 101 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,230 Sean Aylmer: up call for the rest of the business community. 102 00:05:14,010 --> 00:05:17,280 Charlie Hales: Yes. Yeah, I understand why you're saying they wouldn't agree 103 00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:20,190 Charlie Hales: because they've probably had quite a bit of pain from it. 104 00:05:20,490 --> 00:05:23,640 Charlie Hales: But yeah, it's really given the rest of the business 105 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,210 Charlie Hales: community that wake up call. It's made them realise this isn't something 106 00:05:28,290 --> 00:05:30,570 Charlie Hales: I can just think about and push down the road. 107 00:05:30,990 --> 00:05:33,630 Charlie Hales: It's something that I need to prepare for when it 108 00:05:33,630 --> 00:05:35,760 Charlie Hales: is going to happen and make sure that I've got 109 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,770 Charlie Hales: the best provisions in place for when it does. 110 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:40,410 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Charlie. We'll be back in a minute. 111 00:05:46,710 --> 00:05:49,680 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Charlie Hales, Asia Pacific Managing 112 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,400 Sean Aylmer: Director at Waterstons. So what are the steps people should 113 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,979 Sean Aylmer: be taking now, be it a small business like ours, 114 00:05:55,980 --> 00:06:01,320 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed or a larger business? How do you become active? 115 00:06:02,220 --> 00:06:04,710 Charlie Hales: So the biggest thing I'd suggest to any company is 116 00:06:04,710 --> 00:06:07,080 Charlie Hales: at the start of your cyber journey, or even if 117 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,540 Charlie Hales: you've started it but you haven't already done this, is 118 00:06:09,540 --> 00:06:11,760 Charlie Hales: you look at what's appropriate for your business. So as 119 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,039 Charlie Hales: you reference there, small company is very different to a 120 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,890 Charlie Hales: large company. So for example, for you guys, I'd imagine 121 00:06:16,890 --> 00:06:20,850 Charlie Hales: your podcasts and things like that and your IP are the things 122 00:06:20,850 --> 00:06:21,390 Charlie Hales: that you want to protect. 123 00:06:21,390 --> 00:06:23,670 Sean Aylmer: Very valuable, Charlie, very valuable. 124 00:06:23,820 --> 00:06:28,560 Charlie Hales: So it's putting the right provisions in place before they're 125 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,110 Charlie Hales: released around those, after they're released they're public, in the 126 00:06:31,110 --> 00:06:33,360 Charlie Hales: public agenda anyway, so they don't need to be protected. 127 00:06:33,810 --> 00:06:38,700 Charlie Hales: For bigger companies, depending on what their IP or data is that they want 128 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:41,430 Charlie Hales: to protect, they need to understand the risks of their 129 00:06:41,430 --> 00:06:45,120 Charlie Hales: business. If this was breached, or released, or encrypted, or 130 00:06:45,180 --> 00:06:48,330 Charlie Hales: whatever attack it is, because the numerous ways companies can 131 00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:50,669 Charlie Hales: do that, what would that mean to our business and 132 00:06:50,670 --> 00:06:53,730 Charlie Hales: how would we get back up and running quickly, whilst 133 00:06:53,730 --> 00:06:58,410 Charlie Hales: protecting our people, or clients, and data, along that way. 134 00:06:58,830 --> 00:07:02,850 Charlie Hales: So that's definitely where I'd start. But the other big 135 00:07:02,850 --> 00:07:06,660 Charlie Hales: thing I'd recommend to all companies is doing user education. 136 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,440 Charlie Hales: No matter what size your company is, teaching them it's 137 00:07:10,470 --> 00:07:13,650 Charlie Hales: okay if something goes wrong. This is ideal world, you 138 00:07:13,650 --> 00:07:15,900 Charlie Hales: don't click these links, these are things to lock out 139 00:07:15,900 --> 00:07:18,840 Charlie Hales: for, these are education, but if you do, you shout 140 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,730 Charlie Hales: up as soon as possible. Because if you let us 141 00:07:20,730 --> 00:07:23,640 Charlie Hales: know, we can change passwords, we can make sure that 142 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,670 Charlie Hales: account hasn't been in, et cetera, et cetera, to make 143 00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:27,750 Charlie Hales: sure the business is protected. 144 00:07:28,710 --> 00:07:30,630 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so a few things I want to talk about, training 145 00:07:30,630 --> 00:07:35,040 Sean Aylmer: and whether we're not Australia has the right skills available 146 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:40,679 Sean Aylmer: to counter what will be further attacks on businesses? Do 147 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:41,940 Sean Aylmer: we have the skills at the moment? 148 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:44,700 Charlie Hales: So there is a bit of a skill shortage, but 149 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:46,950 Charlie Hales: there's a lot of companies like ours that can help. 150 00:07:47,370 --> 00:07:51,480 Charlie Hales: What I'd suggest that a lot of companies do, historically, they've 151 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,230 Charlie Hales: made the mistake of thinking this is an IT problem. So they think, " 152 00:07:55,230 --> 00:07:58,680 Charlie Hales: Actually our IT teams, they're great, they've put all of 153 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,080 Charlie Hales: the technology in place so we don't need to worry 154 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:06,000 Charlie Hales: about it." IT teams are great, but they're technologists. You 155 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,440 Charlie Hales: need to have a cybersecurity specialist to work alongside them 156 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,270 Charlie Hales: to make sure you've got the right protections in for 157 00:08:12,270 --> 00:08:15,240 Charlie Hales: your business. So having that blend of cyber knowledge and 158 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,230 Charlie Hales: technology knowledge can really give you the best protection. 159 00:08:19,710 --> 00:08:22,560 Sean Aylmer: I mean, how much more support does government need to 160 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,220 Sean Aylmer: give business to help them through this period? And it's 161 00:08:26,220 --> 00:08:28,080 Sean Aylmer: ongoing. Not even a period, is it? This is going 162 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:28,740 Sean Aylmer: to go on forever. 163 00:08:29,130 --> 00:08:31,620 Charlie Hales: Yeah, it is, absolutely. I mean there's definitely been some 164 00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:34,199 Charlie Hales: good news out recently. There's definitely been more of a 165 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,200 Charlie Hales: focus. It's that balance, isn't it? Between the carrot and 166 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,500 Charlie Hales: the stick. They have put some rules in place, the 167 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:44,640 Charlie Hales: stick as you'd say, with fines and things, repeat offenders 168 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,010 Charlie Hales: or big data breaches, but I think there's going to be 169 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:50,309 Charlie Hales: more to come and I'd welcome that, putting some things 170 00:08:50,309 --> 00:08:52,290 Charlie Hales: in place and you'll tell from my accent, I'm from 171 00:08:52,290 --> 00:08:54,809 Charlie Hales: the UK, along the lines of GDPR that they've got 172 00:08:54,809 --> 00:08:58,050 Charlie Hales: over there. Which is basically how you protect that data, 173 00:08:58,050 --> 00:08:59,970 Charlie Hales: how long you keep it, what you can and can't 174 00:08:59,970 --> 00:09:02,010 Charlie Hales: do with it. I think there's a lot they can 175 00:09:02,010 --> 00:09:04,949 Charlie Hales: learn from overseas and putting a few of those practices 176 00:09:04,950 --> 00:09:07,650 Charlie Hales: in place I think will be good. While businesses might 177 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:10,530 Charlie Hales: not see that as good initially because it's work they 178 00:09:10,530 --> 00:09:12,449 Charlie Hales: need to do, it's going to protect them in the 179 00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:14,490 Charlie Hales: long run and it doesn't need to be difficult either. 180 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:17,130 Charlie Hales: These practices that can be put in place quite easily 181 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:17,881 Charlie Hales: as long as you know what you're doing. 182 00:09:17,881 --> 00:09:22,890 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Where does Australia compare to the rest of the world in terms of 183 00:09:22,890 --> 00:09:24,300 Sean Aylmer: readiness for cyber attacks? 184 00:09:25,050 --> 00:09:30,720 Charlie Hales: Being honest again where I'm from, UK and Europe are much better prepared, but they 185 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,050 Charlie Hales: suffered with these attacks years ago and I think that's 186 00:09:34,050 --> 00:09:37,229 Charlie Hales: why they're ahead of the curve. They put lots of 187 00:09:37,230 --> 00:09:39,839 Charlie Hales: practices in place, they put new laws in place and things like 188 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,050 Charlie Hales: that. America's got a lot of initiatives in place as 189 00:09:43,050 --> 00:09:45,300 Charlie Hales: well and how they protect the data, it's very different. 190 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:47,790 Charlie Hales: They do have all kinds of different federal rules over 191 00:09:47,790 --> 00:09:50,190 Charlie Hales: there, so I wouldn't necessarily say it's the best, but 192 00:09:50,190 --> 00:09:53,250 Charlie Hales: again, they've had cyber hacks for a long time. I 193 00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:56,370 Charlie Hales: think Australia's been lucky in a way to not have 194 00:09:56,370 --> 00:09:59,970 Charlie Hales: some of these big cyber breaches before now, hence people 195 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:02,490 Charlie Hales: haven't worried about it as much. But the good news 196 00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:05,700 Charlie Hales: is, again, as you said earlier, not maybe for Optus 197 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,720 Charlie Hales: and Medibank, but that businesses are looking at it now 198 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:11,700 Charlie Hales: and getting the right protection in place to make sure 199 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:12,631 Charlie Hales: they are covered for the future. 200 00:10:12,631 --> 00:10:16,679 Sean Aylmer: Okay. A couple of other things, just quickly, Charlie, I know 201 00:10:18,150 --> 00:10:19,980 Sean Aylmer: Waterstons has done a lot of work on smart building 202 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:21,780 Sean Aylmer: technology. Just explain that. 203 00:10:22,140 --> 00:10:26,040 Charlie Hales: Yeah, so we have a lot of partners that we work with and 204 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,949 Charlie Hales: we've done a great initiative that's going to be coming 205 00:10:28,950 --> 00:10:30,780 Charlie Hales: out end of February. We're doing a bit of an 206 00:10:30,809 --> 00:10:34,710 Charlie Hales: event in March with our partners Cundall, and it's looking 207 00:10:34,710 --> 00:10:39,179 Charlie Hales: at how smart technology in buildings and obviously what you 208 00:10:39,179 --> 00:10:41,069 Charlie Hales: need to put in place around that from a cyber 209 00:10:41,070 --> 00:10:43,650 Charlie Hales: point of view. And it's looking at new buildings but 210 00:10:43,650 --> 00:10:48,810 Charlie Hales: ultra retrofitting buildings. So you'll see buildings are getting smarter 211 00:10:48,929 --> 00:10:52,230 Charlie Hales: all the time at the moment and it's making sure 212 00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:53,850 Charlie Hales: that the right practices are put in place from the 213 00:10:53,850 --> 00:10:56,790 Charlie Hales: start and it doesn't turn into one of those movies 214 00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:58,650 Charlie Hales: that you've seen on the telly where the hackers get 215 00:10:58,650 --> 00:11:01,709 Charlie Hales: into the buildings and lock everything down and things like that. 216 00:11:02,309 --> 00:11:04,320 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, okay. And then the other one I just want to mention 217 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,199 Sean Aylmer: is about attracting more women into cybersecurity. Now I've got 218 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,870 Sean Aylmer: to admit, I actually have an interest in a cyber training 219 00:11:09,929 --> 00:11:12,630 Sean Aylmer: company and that cyber training company has done very well 220 00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:14,819 Sean Aylmer: in the last few months because of what's going on. 221 00:11:15,870 --> 00:11:17,400 Sean Aylmer: But most of the people that come to us to 222 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,079 Sean Aylmer: get trained are male. It's really hard to find female participants. 223 00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:24,780 Charlie Hales: It is, and I think it's something we need to 224 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:26,969 Charlie Hales: look at. Just saying we need more women in cyber 225 00:11:26,970 --> 00:11:29,309 Charlie Hales: isn't going to fix the problem. It's looking at getting 226 00:11:29,309 --> 00:11:32,939 Charlie Hales: them interested at an earlier age. I have been interested 227 00:11:32,940 --> 00:11:34,590 Charlie Hales: in cyber and tech for as long as I can 228 00:11:34,590 --> 00:11:37,679 Charlie Hales: remember. A long time ago, longer than I'd like to 229 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,240 Charlie Hales: admit at university and everything, I was interested. So there 230 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Charlie Hales: was just something in me that re really made me 231 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,090 Charlie Hales: follow this path. And luckily I had a lot of 232 00:11:48,090 --> 00:11:50,940 Charlie Hales: good people supporting it because I was the only woman 233 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,339 Charlie Hales: for a long time. But I think it's getting into 234 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:57,000 Charlie Hales: the schools, getting into the universities, getting people interested, making 235 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,989 Charlie Hales: sure that women and actually all diversities, realize that there's a 236 00:12:00,990 --> 00:12:03,569 Charlie Hales: place for them. And even if they haven't got the 237 00:12:04,110 --> 00:12:09,780 Charlie Hales: amazing technical skills, just having some amazing organizational skills can 238 00:12:09,780 --> 00:12:11,609 Charlie Hales: be great in a crisis when you're dealing with a 239 00:12:11,610 --> 00:12:14,640 Charlie Hales: cyber threat. So there are other avenues that people can 240 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,590 Charlie Hales: get into this. That's something everyone should think about. 241 00:12:17,130 --> 00:12:18,900 Sean Aylmer: Charlie, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 242 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:20,340 Charlie Hales: Thank you for having me. 243 00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:25,979 Sean Aylmer: That was Charlie Hales, Asia Pacific Managing Director at Waterstons. This is the Fear and Greed Daily 244 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:28,350 Sean Aylmer: Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode of 245 00:12:28,350 --> 00:12:31,560 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean 246 00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:32,699 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer, enjoy your day.