Speaker 1: Welcome to How Do They Afford That? The podcast that
Speaker 1: peaks into the financial lives of everyday Australians. I'm Michael Thompson.
Speaker 1: I'm an author and the co host of the business
Speaker 1: news podcast Fear and Greed, and as always I'm with
Speaker 1: Canna Campbell, financial planner and founder of Sugar Mamma TV,
Speaker 1: the financial literacy platform covering Instagram, books, podcast, YouTube threads,
Speaker 1: TikTok and more. Hello, Canna, good morning Now today a
Speaker 1: slightly bigger question. I think this is we're sitting a
Speaker 1: pretty high bar for us today. We spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time talking about saving and investing and building wealth,
Speaker 1: but but it is worth stopping and asking what are
Speaker 1: we actually working for? Right? Are we doing it for
Speaker 1: more money? Doing it for more freedom, more security? I
Speaker 1: don't know something else? Also, your big why behind this exactly?
Speaker 1: You have worked with a lot of clients over the years.
Speaker 1: What do people usually say when when you ask them
Speaker 1: what they're working for financially?
Speaker 2: So normally it starts with this kind of like surface level, why, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I wouldn't be able to retire, I want
Speaker 2: to have financial security, I want to pay off the home,
Speaker 2: and they sort of blanket responses. But when you start
Speaker 2: to go deeper, there's actually so much more behind it
Speaker 2: and what that goal actually represents. So it often represents
Speaker 2: like more time, a slower pace, less stress, having like
Speaker 2: flexibility and choice. And then we start to explore, we'll
Speaker 2: hang on what does that then look like like? You know,
Speaker 2: what does that represent? So? Is it perhaps having the
Speaker 2: ability to travel, to have more experiences and adventures, to
Speaker 2: be able to be perhaps maybe more generous with your
Speaker 2: time or even money with you know, say doing some
Speaker 2: charity work. Or does it look like having the ability
Speaker 2: to be able to help children or grandchildren out, or
Speaker 2: help pay for things like weddings, or be able to
Speaker 2: take your whole family on a special international holiday, perhaps
Speaker 2: somewhere where you grew up as a child. You know,
Speaker 2: you start to go so much deeper and have a
Speaker 2: much more meaningful conversation. You see things start to light
Speaker 2: up in people's eyes because you're like, Okay, this is
Speaker 2: actually I've been told I have to come to this appointment,
Speaker 2: I've been told I should be doing this, But now
Speaker 2: I get why I need to be having these conversations.
Speaker 2: And money is very rarely the end goal. It's actually
Speaker 2: what the money then allows you to do, but also
Speaker 2: what the money allows you to be.
Speaker 1: Okay, that is really interesting that you need to dig
Speaker 1: so far, that you need to ask so many kind
Speaker 1: of follow up questions. And it makes me wonder then
Speaker 1: whether if people are kind of giving almost these default
Speaker 1: answers to these questions, does that then represent probably a
Speaker 1: bigger problem with the way that they are working as well,
Speaker 1: that they're almost on autopilot working towards some point in
Speaker 1: the future, that they think they should be working towards
Speaker 1: retirement or paying off the mortgage just because everyone else
Speaker 1: does it, or they think everyone does it.
Speaker 2: So often the goal is fine itself, but it's the
Speaker 2: lack of connection to that goal and the lack of
Speaker 2: underdeep understanding as to what that goal represents for them
Speaker 2: and feels like for them. And I think it's really
Speaker 2: important to invest time exploring, which is why I often
Speaker 2: say the importance of you know, loving your goals, investing
Speaker 2: time exploring your goals and learning how to create them
Speaker 2: in a powerful, concise way for yourself to follow. And
Speaker 2: you know, people will initially think you know numbers first,
Speaker 2: and there is an element there's a disconnect there. It's
Speaker 2: quite mindless, and I'd even say at times quite soulless.
Speaker 2: You know, they're going through, you know, going off to work,
Speaker 2: going doing this to pay the bills, doing this to
Speaker 2: eventually one day retire. Like where's the passion and excitement
Speaker 2: in that? And how is that mindset and that attitude
Speaker 2: showing up? But if I was to show you, well,
Speaker 2: you're going to work because you're going to be able
Speaker 2: to retire at age you know, sixty on eighty thousand
Speaker 2: dollars a year, and you'll be able to take a
Speaker 2: family on a holiday every year, Like suddenly going to
Speaker 2: work is not so hard and painful, and you know,
Speaker 2: and you know people think about numbers initially, but what
Speaker 2: they really want deep down, when you can safely explore
Speaker 2: the goals and the why and what it means and
Speaker 2: the money story often and where it came from, is
Speaker 2: people want connection and they want freedom, and they want
Speaker 2: to feel that they can contribute.
Speaker 1: Do you see then, like that kind of impersonation of
Speaker 1: someone who's just going to work and just going through
Speaker 1: the motions to pay the bills, to pay the mortgage,
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing, they are just kind of
Speaker 1: like the autopilot goals. But have you actually seen people
Speaker 1: then who are chasing goals that are actually wrong for
Speaker 1: them entirely. And it's not until you kind of sit
Speaker 1: down and talk to them that they might actually have
Speaker 1: a goal to pay off the all by fifty And
Speaker 1: once you actually get talking to them, it turns out
Speaker 1: that they don't. It doesn't actually matter to them. They
Speaker 1: don't mind having a mortgage that lasts a bit longer.
Speaker 1: They want to be able to live a bit more
Speaker 1: freely now and travel a bit more and have a
Speaker 1: bit more money free now. Just as an example of
Speaker 1: people who are living according to the wrong goals entirely.
Speaker 2: Yes, And this is where the power of financial literacy
Speaker 2: comes in, because you can actually show people will hang on, Yes,
Speaker 2: that goal is a great goal to have, but you're
Speaker 2: also missing, you know, three quarters of the other picture here,
Speaker 2: and how those other important elements of your financial game
Speaker 2: plan and your goals actually all sort of kind of
Speaker 2: interdependent upon each other to help get you to where
Speaker 2: you want to be to actually achieve all the values
Speaker 2: behind those goals. So, you know, sitting down with a
Speaker 2: financial planner, and you know, I always say to people,
Speaker 2: when you're going to see a financial planner, spend time
Speaker 2: really thinking about what's important to you and what your
Speaker 2: goals are, because that financial planner can then tell you
Speaker 2: whether you've got the wrong goals, you've got unrealistic expectations,
Speaker 2: or you need to include other things in those goals.
Speaker 2: And a classic example of this is where people are
Speaker 2: so focused on paying off the home loan that they
Speaker 2: can and that they have been told that's what you're
Speaker 2: supposed to do, and then that sort of genuinely believe
Speaker 2: in the Yes, that as technically correct, but they're also
Speaker 2: missing out on the importance of super the importance of
Speaker 2: diversification outside of the family home, the importance of emergency money.
Speaker 2: Like so, yes, I definitely would have come across that
Speaker 2: plenty of times.
Speaker 1: Okay, this idea then that they're just working so hard
Speaker 1: and working to get to this point somewhere in the future.
Speaker 1: Do you think we confuse doing well financially with living
Speaker 1: well that the two are in fact kind of can
Speaker 1: be slightly different things.
Speaker 2: Yes, so, And I think also social media has a
Speaker 2: big element here where you know, it's what looks like
Speaker 2: they're you know, you're living well, you know you're ticking
Speaker 2: all the boxes you've got, you know, the car, the outfit,
Speaker 2: the home. But then really what's going on behind the scenes.
Speaker 2: Are you really doing well? You do you actually, from
Speaker 2: a financial literacy point of view, actually know that you
Speaker 2: are making good progress. Not to be the richest person
Speaker 2: or you know, but to actually know that we are
Speaker 2: actually making progress, we're actually being intelligent and we have
Speaker 2: a respectful sense of balance in our lives with the
Speaker 2: goals that we're working on. Because we come here with
Speaker 2: nothing and we leave with nothing, we have to have
Speaker 2: a respectful sense of balance and that we're honoring all
Speaker 2: the different pillars in our lives. So, yes, there is
Speaker 2: a big difference between what looks like you're living well
Speaker 2: and actually genuinely living well, and I think having that
Speaker 2: progress which is not always linear and perfect, particularly right now.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes the progress and process is actually just
Speaker 2: staying afloat, but then knowing when to change gears and
Speaker 2: tweak and change the journey in direction as things shift
Speaker 2: and change.
Speaker 1: And it would certainly change depending on your stage of
Speaker 1: life as well. Right if you're younger, or if you're
Speaker 1: a mid career, or if you're approaching retirement, this question
Speaker 1: of what you're actually working for may evolve entirely absolutely.
Speaker 2: And also things can suddenly change in life. You know,
Speaker 2: situations change, and you know windfalls and then setbacks and challenges,
Speaker 2: and I think having that deep connection to your why
Speaker 2: and the big picture here is going to act as
Speaker 2: your beacon of light through tough times, through challenging times,
Speaker 2: because you know it's hard, you acknowledge it, but it
Speaker 2: is going to be worth it. It will pay off.
Speaker 2: You will get there eventually, and you will come out
Speaker 2: a stronger person, a better person, a more educated person
Speaker 2: when it comes to money, a wiser person.
Speaker 1: Okay, on the other side of the break, I want
Speaker 1: to ask you how we figure this out because it's
Speaker 1: a big question, this idea of what you're actually working for,
Speaker 1: and I want to know how we can all answer that.
Speaker 1: Because you talked about the various kind of follow up
Speaker 1: questions that you as a financial plan I had to
Speaker 1: ask to dig deeper. So I'm curious to see whether
Speaker 1: we can kind of take a shortcut and just get
Speaker 1: to the core of it in an instant.
Speaker 2: This is like a very fast initial financial planning perpointment.
Speaker 1: Indeed, it is quick break back in a moment with
Speaker 1: more cana. Today we are talking about what are you
Speaker 1: actually working for? Are you working for more freedom? Security, money,
Speaker 1: options to do more things later in life. It's a
Speaker 1: big question. How do we answer that question of ourselves?
Speaker 1: Do we ask it of ourselves? Are you better to
Speaker 1: ask it of someone else? Do you sit down with
Speaker 1: your partner or a friend, and can you have a
Speaker 1: conversation about this with someone who is not necessary? I mean,
Speaker 1: gold standard would be to go to a go to
Speaker 1: a financial planner, a trained professional. But if you're just
Speaker 1: kind of curious to know, can you just sit down
Speaker 1: and just have a chat about it with a friend
Speaker 1: or a family member.
Speaker 2: A safe space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's not an easy question to answer, and
Speaker 1: it's one that you probably need to be vulnerable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've got to be honest.
Speaker 2: So clarity comes from asking better questions, not chasing bigger numbers.
Speaker 2: So creating the space to actually go deep with this
Speaker 2: where you can relax, breathe into it, and just safely
Speaker 2: dissect and analyze everything that sort of comes to mind.
Speaker 2: And you know, I also recommend writing things down if
Speaker 2: there's something really important that sort of hits you aut
Speaker 2: it that it's quite a surprise. So one of the
Speaker 2: best questions I like to ask people is like, what
Speaker 2: does you know your ideal day look like? So, what
Speaker 2: does your ideal day look like mine?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh no, you're going to put me on.
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, Like what's the pace, like, what's the energy? Like,
Speaker 2: what does it look like? Who you spending time with?
Speaker 2: How much time are you spending with them? Like, you know,
Speaker 2: what's the balance like of work and family and you
Speaker 2: know time on your own.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's a good point. And when I've thought
Speaker 1: about this in the past, it is about having time
Speaker 1: to still do work, because I still love working, but
Speaker 1: it's not having to spend twelve hours a day working.
Speaker 1: It is about being able to do that work and
Speaker 1: still have a lot of time with my family. That's
Speaker 1: what That's what I want, And so for me, that
Speaker 1: is kind of a perfect day, right being able to
Speaker 1: to for me, take the kids to school and ideally
Speaker 1: to pick them up again in the afternoon so they
Speaker 1: don't sleep there overnight, and to be able to do
Speaker 1: some work that really has meaning to me and to
Speaker 1: do those things during the day. That's that's a great
Speaker 1: day for me.
Speaker 2: So hearing that it's connection, it's flexibility, it's purpose. You know,
Speaker 2: this is what we're talking about here. So yes, they're
Speaker 2: still great. There are the goals to have, but now
Speaker 2: you understand what it. Have you ever actually done that
Speaker 2: had that conversation with yourself as to what your dream
Speaker 2: ideal day would look like until now? Yes, a fantasy
Speaker 2: way or in an intentional, like deep understanding.
Speaker 1: Way, probably slightly leaning towards the fantasy involves me stepping
Speaker 1: onto a boat that's suddenly Fiji.
Speaker 2: Indeed, but that's like, this is where we start to
Speaker 2: anchor it in our real lives, not in our fantasy lives,
Speaker 2: and we actually go go, you know what, I'm going
Speaker 2: to build this for my family. I'm going to do this.
Speaker 2: And you know, I say, well, okay, give me three
Speaker 2: areas in your life if I could wave a magical
Speaker 2: wand today that I would fix, And you might go, well,
Speaker 2: the mortgage. We have a mortgage.
Speaker 1: I hate it.
Speaker 2: I would love to get rid of it. Okay, Great,
Speaker 2: we're going to work on paying that off. The fact
Speaker 2: that I am reliant solely on my income from physical work. Okay, great,
Speaker 2: let's build you an investment portfolio that pays you a
Speaker 2: passive income. Okay. The next thing that worries me, well,
Speaker 2: I worry about retirement, and I want to make sure
Speaker 2: that you know both myself and my partner can retire together. Well, great,
Speaker 2: let's get a game plan in place to address both
Speaker 2: of your superinnovations that you've got similar account balances or
Speaker 2: the strategy behind it is efficient. So suddenly we're taking
Speaker 2: a fantasy, turning it into a goal, and now building
Speaker 2: the strategy in the system to help make the goal happen,
Speaker 2: which means your dream happens.
Speaker 1: That makes so much sense, and you.
Speaker 2: Now understand the work behind. There are going to be sacrifices,
Speaker 2: there are going to be setbacks, there are going to
Speaker 2: be challenges, but there also be will be windfalls, There'll
Speaker 2: be bonuses, There'll be you know, opportunities that come up
Speaker 2: that will obviously like amplify and leverage. You know this strategy,
Speaker 2: but you now know even more as to what you're building.
Speaker 2: You've got a vision, You've got that light at the
Speaker 2: end of the tunnel. You can use that to work towards.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's something that I do on a
Speaker 2: regular basis. I think about the big picture, particularly you know,
Speaker 2: when I'm working, like you, long hours, juggling kids, daycare,
Speaker 2: you daycare expenses, you know fill prices and you think
Speaker 2: far out, there's just so many setbacks and blocks and
Speaker 2: challenges coming back to that big picture and what it
Speaker 2: represents and why.
Speaker 1: Because that so valuable? Yeah, and it flows through everything then, right,
Speaker 1: because that affects how you save, how you spend, how
Speaker 1: you invest. It puts purpose behind all of those things.
Speaker 2: And your mindset and your attitude and how you show
Speaker 2: up as an individual. You're not grumpy that you've had
Speaker 2: to put money into your super or pay extra morhich.
Speaker 2: You're proud, You're empowered, you're financially intelligent and whise and
Speaker 2: it's going to help your family so much so you're
Speaker 2: going to stick to it and be consistent. As we've
Speaker 2: spoken about gazillion times, is the consistency rather than the amount,
Speaker 2: particularly when you factor in time as well, that has
Speaker 2: does most of the hard work for you in getting ahead.
Speaker 1: What happens though, when say two people in a household
Speaker 1: have completely different answers to that question of what are
Speaker 1: you actually working for?
Speaker 2: They get divorced.
Speaker 1: I was going to say it doesn't sound very compatible, right,
Speaker 1: is how do you work through that? Because you would
Speaker 1: have seen that right where you sit down with a
Speaker 1: couple and they've got different.
Speaker 2: It's really hard. And I have experienced this with clients
Speaker 2: where you know, new clients have come to see me
Speaker 2: and they've almost come to see me as a marriage
Speaker 2: counselor because I think that what's you know, they've got
Speaker 2: financial stress, But really is they're on different pages and
Speaker 2: you know the relationship has dissolved but not always, and
Speaker 2: that you know they're there. That's a very small percentage,
Speaker 2: but I would be lying if I said that doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: But the other side is also the financial literacy. You know,
Speaker 2: some people have different values because they don't have the
Speaker 2: same experience or the same understanding as to how money
Speaker 2: works and how what's required and what's needed to get
Speaker 2: ahead and how you know, the sacrifices do quite often
Speaker 2: pay off. Also, it's you know, people are at different
Speaker 2: stages in their life, particularly if you have a couple
Speaker 2: that have did quite a bit of an age gap.
Speaker 2: They have different mindsets, they have different goals, and there's
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with that. I think that's also very very
Speaker 2: healthy as well, and that from a practical point of
Speaker 2: view and a strategic point of view involves having a
Speaker 2: joint financial strategy. But also we manage their other separate
Speaker 2: financial affairs, perhaps each of their individual superannuation accounts differently
Speaker 2: that reflect their own individual you know whys and goals
Speaker 2: and dreams and you know aspirations. But I would also
Speaker 2: point out Tom has a goal and his values is
Speaker 2: a little bit different to mine, like he wants to
Speaker 2: retire work a lot earlier than I do, whereas I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't actually ever see myself retiring. But you know
Speaker 2: you are still able to, you know, work together as
Speaker 2: a team and respect each other's wishes and also know
Speaker 2: that they may change. You know, Tom, Tom's got ants
Speaker 2: in his fans, Like I think if you took off
Speaker 2: stop work for a week, he'd be climbing the walls
Speaker 2: with boredom and would end up doing going back to work.
Speaker 2: But you know, you you do have to really respect
Speaker 2: where each other stands, just like you have to do
Speaker 2: in a relationship regardless of the money. You know what
Speaker 2: people are important to people and why, and also know
Speaker 2: that people's whys naturally do change over time. I mean
Speaker 2: mine has massively, particularly in having children.
Speaker 1: Okay, so say you've now landed on an answer to
Speaker 1: the question of what are you actually working for and
Speaker 1: it is these big picture things in the future. It
Speaker 1: might be retiring at fifty five, It might be retiring
Speaker 1: so that you can have an overseas trip every year,
Speaker 1: something big like that. Right, is there a danger though,
Speaker 1: that you were going to get so focused on the
Speaker 1: future and where you are going to be in twenty
Speaker 1: years or thirty years or however long, and that you
Speaker 1: will not enjoy the present. And we're not guaranteed twenty years.
Speaker 1: We're not even guaranteed tomorrow. So how do you balance
Speaker 1: out then the need to actually live well now with
Speaker 1: having a good future.
Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and I think it's very personal,
Speaker 2: and it's about I think looking at where your money
Speaker 2: is and you're not trying to I guess what's that
Speaker 2: saying be the richest person in the cemetery, you know,
Speaker 2: making sure that you intentionally allocate money that gives you
Speaker 2: joy today but also gives you respectful security and stability
Speaker 2: and comfort further down the track. And it is something
Speaker 2: that needs to be mindfully balanced with care and obviously adjustments,
Speaker 2: because you know, we want to make sure that we
Speaker 2: live our lives responsibly, we don't create unnecessary financial stress
Speaker 2: for ourselves. But we also need to find that sweet spot,
Speaker 2: and that is where a financial plan can come in
Speaker 2: and go great, all right, this is what you're owning.
Speaker 2: Let's allocate x amount of dolls per year for family holidays.
Speaker 2: You've got a child that's you know, you want to
Speaker 2: help them buy a home, and you want to help
Speaker 2: contribute towards the tools. It great, We're going to put
Speaker 2: some money aside that and that's where that intentional allocation
Speaker 2: of what you've got coming in today can still serve
Speaker 2: your happiness and your needs, you know, and your personal
Speaker 2: growth and living your best life. But also you are
Speaker 2: always respectful as to building something up just support you
Speaker 2: back will and to the future.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, good place to finish. I think that's
Speaker 1: a big, big topic. We tries to take all that.
Speaker 1: I feel, Yeah, and it's a good conversation to have. It.
Speaker 1: It's a great conversation to have with a financial planner,
Speaker 1: but it's just even a good conversation to have with
Speaker 1: yourself or with your partner and just start asking that
Speaker 1: question and then trying to dig a little bit deeper
Speaker 1: than the surface level answers to it. All right, if
Speaker 1: somebody wants more information from you, Where do they find you?
Speaker 2: Do you want to dig deep with your financial goals
Speaker 2: and your wife? Best place to find me is on
Speaker 2: Instagram at sugar Mama.
Speaker 1: TV, and you can hear me every day with Sean
Speaker 1: Aylmer on Fear and Greed business news. You can use
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