Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Kathleen Kirby,
Speaker 1: the mother of murdered nineteen year old Audrey Griffin. I
Speaker 1: travel up to the central case of New South Wales
Speaker 1: to meet Kathleen and talk about the murder of her
Speaker 1: beautiful daughter. I wish I wasn't meeting Kathleen under these circumstances.
Speaker 1: See seven months ago, her daughter Audrey was murdered by
Speaker 1: a stranger when she was walking home late one night.
Speaker 1: That man, Adrian Torrens, was out on bail and had
Speaker 1: an extensive history of domestic violence. Audrey's death was initially
Speaker 1: ruled by police as a misadventure, but Kathleen knew that
Speaker 1: wasn't the case and took matters into her own hands.
Speaker 1: If she hadn't, Torrens might have gotten away with murder.
Speaker 1: Here is part two of my chat with Kathleen the
Speaker 1: CCTV footage which led to the breakthrough. What involvement did
Speaker 1: you have him pushing for finding out more about the
Speaker 1: TV footage?
Speaker 2: Well, once again, when I went in to see the footage,
Speaker 2: which they didn't show me the footage that they released
Speaker 2: the following day, which I asked, I want to see
Speaker 2: all the footage everything. I want to see what stay
Speaker 2: of mind she.
Speaker 1: Is so okay and what we're breaking down here CCTV
Speaker 1: footage taken from businesses along everything they had people walking.
Speaker 1: You've gone in the police station and said I want
Speaker 1: to see it, and they.
Speaker 2: Took them three weeks to get back to me to
Speaker 2: say okay, come in, and then I'm sitting down and
Speaker 2: they're showing me bits and pieces and I said, so
Speaker 2: where's the club. It's upstairs. Didn't I just say I
Speaker 2: wanted to see all of it. So I see all that,
Speaker 2: I see parts of it. I walk out of there.
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, she's happy, she's not drunk, she's not dizzy,
Speaker 2: she's not falling over the place. You know, what I
Speaker 2: have just thought is that she would have had jet leg.
Speaker 2: And then when we've seen that video that was taken
Speaker 2: off her to a friend and she's tired, it's two thirty,
Speaker 2: she's just done Sydney mum out all night walking home
Speaker 2: to thirty jet legged. We did things, as I said
Speaker 2: to you, to have tests done. We had to cremate
Speaker 2: our daughter in a way that no parent would have
Speaker 2: to make that choice. And then to find out now
Speaker 2: they had that footage the day after that, they released
Speaker 2: three and a half weeks and they hadn't shown me.
Speaker 1: Post more than you're talking about there, And it's invasive
Speaker 1: when the postmortems have done. If they were treating it
Speaker 1: as suspicious, I'd have to say just that there would
Speaker 1: be a post more than conducted that needs to be
Speaker 1: conducted unless there was some extremely extenuating the extenuating circumstances.
Speaker 2: Do you know they said to me. What I've been
Speaker 2: informed is that when I came back to them and said,
Speaker 2: that's when they said, maybe we should start looking at
Speaker 2: this a bit more. When I went back after seeing
Speaker 2: Audrey and I said to them, this is not that's
Speaker 2: when from what I've been told now, is when they said,
Speaker 2: that's when they started looking into it more.
Speaker 1: That's what you're being told now when you're pushing with
Speaker 1: the CCTV footage, what happened after you've gone in and
Speaker 1: causing concerns you want to look at it, and demanding
Speaker 1: to look at the CCTV footage, What's what's happened?
Speaker 2: The next day they released they released the photo of
Speaker 2: him walking behind her and two young girls in front.
Speaker 2: The young girls in front lasted a couple of hours,
Speaker 2: I think, on social media, and I think that got
Speaker 2: shut down quite quick and his photo was still there. Now,
Speaker 2: this is where it comes a bit of a blur.
Speaker 2: I remember ringing him and saying, why didn't I see
Speaker 2: that footage? And that's when he was saying to me,
Speaker 2: we didn't find it irrelevant at.
Speaker 1: The time, didn't find it relevant because he was.
Speaker 2: Twenty meters behind. And when I also said, when I
Speaker 2: was there, have you got the footage? What about all
Speaker 2: the footage between here and here? He said, well, we
Speaker 2: don't need that, we've got that, and I said, well,
Speaker 2: I've got footage from two shops one of the real
Speaker 2: estates my girlfriend works in that said to me, Kathleen,
Speaker 2: we've got footage. You want me to have a look,
Speaker 2: and it's him walking behind her that they didn't have.
Speaker 2: And when I said to them, why haven't you got that?
Speaker 2: And he said, because we've got this and that we've
Speaker 2: got enough footage. And I said, well, how do you
Speaker 2: know that something didn't happen in between that time?
Speaker 1: Just help me break that and that for a bit.
Speaker 1: So they've got footage where he's walking behind orgery. This
Speaker 1: is coming from the direction of Gossip Hotel. Correct, we
Speaker 1: know where Audrey's Body's been found, direct aeron the creek.
Speaker 1: And them telling you that there's no need to look
Speaker 1: at other footage because we've got footage.
Speaker 2: I don't know if they said they didn't need to
Speaker 2: look at footage that from when I said, oh, I've
Speaker 2: got this footage, why haven't you got it? And they said, oh,
Speaker 2: we've got footage from all the other places we didn't
Speaker 2: need that one. And to me, it's like any anyone
Speaker 2: else could have been involved, any like, wouldn't you just
Speaker 2: get all the footage?
Speaker 1: I would say, yes, yes, you would in.
Speaker 2: That strip because it's not that amount of shops.
Speaker 1: Well we say it's five or six kilometers, and that's
Speaker 1: just my guestimate on how far it might be a
Speaker 1: little bit less. There's not that many shops. There's banker shops,
Speaker 1: and we're talking, you know, two hundred meters work for shops,
Speaker 1: the hotel and some service stations, those type of things.
Speaker 1: So it's not like looking the main street of a
Speaker 1: city going through every business. Okay, so how would you
Speaker 1: describe your thoughts about the police what they were doing
Speaker 1: at this point in time.
Speaker 2: I was appalled, absolutely. I was beside myself. I was
Speaker 2: beside myself constantly. We all were. Everybody was by this stage.
Speaker 2: Everyone was just you know a lot of people were
Speaker 2: quite because you know, we didn't know, but everyone in
Speaker 2: the background was like, no way, no way, you know,
Speaker 2: and here myself and the girls that we were all
Speaker 2: in the hotel room were just constantly just at the
Speaker 2: police station, just you know, and seeing them, seeing me
Speaker 2: doing the work that I was doing, they would concern
Speaker 2: for me as well.
Speaker 1: To give a sense, and it might be hard to
Speaker 1: give exact numbers, But in that three weeks from the
Speaker 1: time Audrey's Body's been found until the release of the
Speaker 1: CCTV footage, how many conversations would you say, you and
Speaker 1: the old girlfriends acting on your every day?
Speaker 2: Every day? Every day, maybe a couple of times a day.
Speaker 2: So I was constantly on the phone to them, when
Speaker 2: am I seeing this? When am I picking up this?
Speaker 2: Where's her phone? Where's her bag? Where's this?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: I was constantly on the phone.
Speaker 1: To them, So twenty you.
Speaker 2: Oh, easy, it'll be Look, we could definitely say once a.
Speaker 1: Day, but even more would have your mind been put
Speaker 1: at ease if the police had said to you during
Speaker 1: those frequent contacts, look, we are looking at this is
Speaker 1: suspiciously Absolutely, was that ever said to you. Never, So,
Speaker 1: despite all the stuff that you've brought to them and
Speaker 1: where you've questioned what's been done, there was no point
Speaker 1: and I'm talking up until when the photo was released,
Speaker 1: no point where they've said, look, we've decided to look
Speaker 1: at it in more detail. You have never told me
Speaker 1: ever at once did you give them the opportunity to
Speaker 1: tell that, Like I'm thinking, was that you just ringing
Speaker 1: up and angry at them and hanging up or did
Speaker 1: you never hung up? I was always okay, so you
Speaker 1: gave them the opportunity.
Speaker 2: I was always I you know, yes, So maybe it's
Speaker 2: a few times that i'd raised my voice, but I
Speaker 2: always treat them with respect in an anger way of
Speaker 2: a mother grieving. But I was never I. I went
Speaker 2: in their professional in ways that I needed them behind me.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to burn bridges in any way. So
Speaker 2: I had that in my mind at all times, and
Speaker 2: I had the girls with me, and to the point
Speaker 2: even with my girlfriend who's a solicitor, walked out and see, Kathleen,
Speaker 2: you handle that so well? Do you know what I mean? So? No?
Speaker 1: So, And why I pose that question? There was just
Speaker 1: opportunities if they had changed their mind, where they could
Speaker 1: have told you, like I'm thinking of them many times
Speaker 1: they trying to justify my own mind. How why they're
Speaker 1: approaching it that way? And I think if if you're
Speaker 1: coming in aggressively, they might have been able to tell
Speaker 1: you that they've turned it round. But you're saying that
Speaker 1: there was.
Speaker 2: Even if that was the case, get a counselor in
Speaker 2: and sit down with me, give me support, but to
Speaker 2: let me go through everything I did and doing what
Speaker 2: I had to do to find out if she'd been
Speaker 2: drugged or pointed or drugged or she was intoxicated before
Speaker 2: we cremated Audrey. That should never have happened. I should
Speaker 2: never have had to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm not sure if this is helping you
Speaker 1: however you want to look at it. But if it
Speaker 1: was treated as suspicious, that would have been those types
Speaker 1: of tests that would have been done.
Speaker 2: They had the footage of the day after, Yeah.
Speaker 1: But they potentially would need to still gather that evidence.
Speaker 1: So the foto's gone out. So you've asked for media attention,
Speaker 1: you've asked for media release early just after Audrey's body
Speaker 1: was found. You've harassed and chased up your own CCTV footage.
Speaker 1: You've gone to the police asking what's on it. You've
Speaker 1: asked to see what's on it, You've seen it, it's
Speaker 1: been released, and then.
Speaker 2: What so then it's released and we're informed to come
Speaker 2: into and at this stage, I'm with my father. He's
Speaker 2: passed pretty much on his last breath, and right at
Speaker 2: the hospital with my family, and I'm asked to come
Speaker 2: into the Surrey Hill's police station. So Trevor and I
Speaker 2: arrived to Surrey Hill's police station later in that afternoon,
Speaker 2: and a different detective who's now taking over the case
Speaker 2: said to me, we've arrested don't want to say his
Speaker 2: name for the murder of Audrey. And I said, has
Speaker 2: he confessed? And he said he's sleeping at the moment,
Speaker 2: And then I said and then he said, sorry, he's
Speaker 2: in custody with the We can't speak to him now
Speaker 2: because he's in custody with the Aboriginal community. I was
Speaker 2: then told that they were going to do what they
Speaker 2: could and that they'd get support team. And I may
Speaker 2: have had a phone call once or twice from someone
Speaker 2: in all this going on that maybe once I think
Speaker 2: she said she reached out. Trevor and I walked out,
Speaker 2: no support. While he's sitting in there being protected. We
Speaker 2: get to walk out at Sorry Hill's Police station without
Speaker 2: daor to be murdered. He's been on the loose for
Speaker 2: three weeks, he's been seen at the location, which they denied,
Speaker 2: and we walk out of there and he gets protection.
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter what color, they said, they said to us
Speaker 2: as well, sorry that we've arrested him, that she scratched
Speaker 2: him with her index finger on the face. We've got
Speaker 2: DNA and we also have seven other people come forward
Speaker 2: enough to arrest him.
Speaker 1: That potentially the way that handle that. I just clarify,
Speaker 1: people in custody have rights, and where's my rights? Sitting
Speaker 1: here hearing your story, I would imagine everyone else would
Speaker 1: feel the same way and go, well, who cares. That's
Speaker 1: the reality of the world.
Speaker 2: It's not reality. It's not reality. This is what we
Speaker 2: need to change. And I get I understand what you're saying,
Speaker 2: and I know what you're going to say, but it's
Speaker 2: not reality. This is a man that's murdered my daughter
Speaker 2: and we're left to walk out of there and he's
Speaker 2: got a roof over his head and probably even feed
Speaker 2: and someone protecting him, and where are we? That is
Speaker 2: just wrong on every level. I'm sorry, I know, I
Speaker 2: know what you're saying.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be sorry, and I can't argue
Speaker 1: back on You're entitled to those views and fully understandable.
Speaker 1: He was charged a couple a couple of things at
Speaker 1: points I want to make here on the charging that
Speaker 1: He's DNA were found under a fingernails, whinding it right
Speaker 1: back to the couple of weeks before when her Audrey's
Speaker 1: body was found. Checking the fingernails for a potential murder investigation?
Speaker 1: Is just homicide? One oh one? The fact that he's
Speaker 1: DNA were found under the fingernails causing me a concern
Speaker 1: that that wasn't enough to prompt that there's a thorough
Speaker 1: homicide investigation. He was only in custody for four days,
Speaker 1: three and a bit before he killed himself in prison.
Speaker 2: How does that happen? How does someone get a razor
Speaker 2: blade to take their life in prison? How does someone
Speaker 2: that's been on a five day bender from what I've
Speaker 2: been informed the week before, on drugs and alcohol and
Speaker 2: put in jail and they turn and the counselors turn
Speaker 2: around and say that he's not suicidal and put him
Speaker 2: in a normal cell where he's handed a raizor blade
Speaker 2: to take his life. How does that happen with a
Speaker 2: history that he has.
Speaker 1: I can't answer that. I know practices have put in
Speaker 1: place to prevent that type of thing, but I'm sure
Speaker 1: that will be encompassed in a cranial investigation. It would
Speaker 1: be treated as a death in custody and an investigation
Speaker 1: will be conducted conducted that way from an emotional point
Speaker 1: of view, from your point of view and Trevors and
Speaker 1: friends and family, how did it make you feel to
Speaker 1: know the person that's been arrested and charged with Audrey's
Speaker 1: murder has taken that part?
Speaker 2: Helleljah, thank you. At the time, we were having a
Speaker 2: ritual for Audrey down at the beach where the whole
Speaker 2: of terrible people for Miles. I don't know if you've
Speaker 2: seen it.
Speaker 1: I've seen it. I've seen that many people that.
Speaker 2: Are people couldn't even get there. It was like people
Speaker 2: were coming from Sydney on the train. They just couldn't
Speaker 2: get there. That was the response that people and we
Speaker 2: found out. So that day at four point fifty we
Speaker 2: were told the ceremony started at five. At four point fifty,
Speaker 2: we got the phone call to say that he'd taken
Speaker 2: his life. So ten minutes prior, I lose my father
Speaker 2: that night and then when i'm you know, when they
Speaker 2: phone me to say how are you feeling? And I said, well,
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm happy. I'm happy because he's off
Speaker 2: the street and he's gone. Did I feel that way later.
Speaker 2: Probably not, But then from what I've been informed, there
Speaker 2: may be a lot of things he may have said
Speaker 2: to me if I did see him face to face
Speaker 2: that I probably never would have come back from. So
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, yes, yes, he will
Speaker 2: never be out to hurt another child, or another woman
Speaker 2: or another man, whoever that'll be.
Speaker 1: I can understand how difficult the whole whole situation, if.
Speaker 2: The whole situation is just appalling, to think that he
Speaker 2: was out on the street for three weeks and hidden,
Speaker 2: you know, he was hidden that I while he was missing,
Speaker 2: he'd been up at casino.
Speaker 1: How are you aware of that?
Speaker 2: I was told by the constable.
Speaker 1: Right, did the police say anything to you about how
Speaker 1: it's gone from misadventure to murder? Did was there any
Speaker 1: apologies or any any oh?
Speaker 2: God knows, God knows?
Speaker 1: Was there any discussions? Did you?
Speaker 2: Like I'm the one that's always brought it up. How
Speaker 2: how do you go from you know, when we went
Speaker 2: to the coroner's report, which I brought my doctor with
Speaker 2: me so she could actually explain the information clearly to
Speaker 2: me so that we could understand. How did it? Ever?
Speaker 2: From what I see of Audrey, how was that ever
Speaker 2: tread as an adventure, and then how did you come
Speaker 2: to the conclusion of this? Yes, they explained all that,
Speaker 2: but still to me, how did they come to that
Speaker 2: conclusion misadventure when you you only had to see her?
Speaker 1: Well, I can't comment on that because I didn't see Audrey,
Speaker 1: but I respect your comments as Audrey's mother, But on
Speaker 1: the circumstances, I don't see how you could write that
Speaker 1: off a misadventure. You've got to keep an open mind,
Speaker 1: to open mind to things. So in light of all
Speaker 1: that's happened, have you had to sit down with any
Speaker 1: senior police.
Speaker 2: Yes, we've had many of interviews with Chris Min's yes man.
Speaker 1: So we're talking the premiere of the police minister, so
Speaker 1: that the high, high level meetings correct.
Speaker 2: And then there was Karen web police commissioner correct which
Speaker 2: she looked me in the eye, which tears as a woman,
Speaker 2: as a mother with a broken heart, and said to me, Kathleen,
Speaker 2: we had him locked up, they just let him out.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's that's another part of this whole story
Speaker 1: that concerns me. And I'm not being critical of Karen
Speaker 1: Webb here, the former former commissioner, but I'm somewhat confused.
Speaker 1: You might be able to add some clarity to it.
Speaker 1: But when he was, and I'll respect the fact you
Speaker 1: don't want his name mentioned, so he doesn't deserve it, okay.
Speaker 1: When he was charged with Audrey's murder, he was also
Speaker 1: charged with eleven other counts of the breaching AVOs and
Speaker 1: domestic violence related related matters. My understanding, he was put
Speaker 1: before the courts in October, granted the corrections order and released.
Speaker 1: It was fairly stringent, and then he was sentenced on
Speaker 1: the sixteenth of January correctional orders. These breaches of the
Speaker 1: avas related to his former wife. And I've also picked
Speaker 1: up on the information that she's saying that she was
Speaker 1: concerned about the amount of times that she contacted the
Speaker 1: police asking whether he's been located, and he hadn't been located.
Speaker 1: My concerns, and this is speculating here that he can't
Speaker 1: be that difficult to find because he was committing the
Speaker 1: fences by using his telephone.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: Now, if someone's got their telephone, as police officers, we
Speaker 1: can find them.
Speaker 2: This is what I'm saying about the location. When my
Speaker 2: girlfriend saw him at the location the week later, I said,
Speaker 2: when I was driving up for the ritual that day,
Speaker 2: and I drove past the creek. I was coming from
Speaker 2: Sydney and I was driving past to come up to Terrgill.
Speaker 2: And I went past and I saw all the police there,
Speaker 2: and I pulled in and I said, what's going on.
Speaker 2: They said, we're doing a reenactment. And I walked up
Speaker 2: to one of the detectives that was being there from
Speaker 2: day dot and said to her, I've been informed a
Speaker 2: girlfriend had phoned in about seeing him the week after,
Speaker 2: and she came in and did a statement because obviously
Speaker 2: by this stage she saw the photo and identified the
Speaker 2: clothing he was wearing. She said to me, yes, his
Speaker 2: phone diged to the location, right.
Speaker 1: They denied that later when your girlfriend said she saw
Speaker 1: saw him, he was there, that when they were doing
Speaker 1: the re enactment. Was that after he'd been arrested. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: I understand that.
Speaker 2: This was the day of the ritual.
Speaker 1: Getting back to the offenses that he was wanted for now,
Speaker 1: I've heard the Commission of Web say that, yeah, we
Speaker 1: put him before, put him before the courts, and I
Speaker 1: understand that. I understand the frustration from the police, like
Speaker 1: we can't control the courts. We've got to accept the
Speaker 1: court's decisions. I'm just curious how long, with eleven breaches
Speaker 1: of avas, how long police were looking for him before?
Speaker 2: Correct? That's what I think too.
Speaker 1: Audrey's murder and what efforts were done to find him?
Speaker 2: Correct?
Speaker 1: When were those offenses committed? Because I look at his
Speaker 1: criminal history. Well, I've seen of his criminal history and
Speaker 1: the past offenses and the threats that were made to
Speaker 1: his ex wife. They're concerning in anyone's level. You don't
Speaker 1: have to be a cop to think this person's potentially dangerous.
Speaker 2: I want to know exactly what happened from day dot.
Speaker 2: I want to know exactly exactly what was done. Why
Speaker 2: we were told it was a misadventure, Why it was
Speaker 2: put down as a misadventure. Why nothing was ever said
Speaker 2: to me, even if they, like you said, if I
Speaker 2: was a lunatic or whatever, and they felt they couldn't
Speaker 2: approach me, Why didn't I get the support so that song.
Speaker 2: Why did they allow me to come in there knowing
Speaker 2: I was very stressed and I was looking for answers.
Speaker 2: At no stage did they ever say to me, Kathleen,
Speaker 2: we're looking into this, or we're doing this, We're going
Speaker 2: to look or even we're going to try and do this,
Speaker 2: or we're going to do this nothing misadventure. Would that
Speaker 2: make absolutely make a difference, absolutely absolutely if I knew
Speaker 2: they were looking. If I knew they were looking, and
Speaker 2: I would still wouldn't stopped myself because obviously if they
Speaker 2: were looking, why is it that I found we found
Speaker 2: all this stuff? How do you not find a phone?
Speaker 2: How do you not go down the lot? That's what
Speaker 2: I said to him. How did you not go down
Speaker 2: there in low tide? He said, because we've got the divers.
Speaker 2: So three people on three different days have gone down
Speaker 2: there scouting, and yet no one thinks to go and
Speaker 2: look for low type. But yes, let's pay for the
Speaker 2: government to go and send some divers down there. Lets
Speaker 2: them do that when all they had to do is
Speaker 2: go down low tide and they would have found it. Strange.
Speaker 1: I think they are just in my opinion, I think
Speaker 1: they want the divers in there as well, even at
Speaker 1: low tide. These are the type of things. But yeah,
Speaker 1: as I said, if you can't find the phone of
Speaker 1: a girl that's found de sea in water, you'd be
Speaker 1: looking at Okay, Well, there's a potential something suspicious there
Speaker 1: where is the phone? Because we've we keep our phones
Speaker 1: in their pockets or keep them close to us. Where
Speaker 1: is where is the phone? Was it the robbery?
Speaker 2: Can I just say in regards to that, So in
Speaker 2: this time that I'm stressing about the phone, where's the phone?
Speaker 2: Where's a phone? This is when I picked the car
Speaker 2: up and I found the computer. So when you think
Speaker 2: they'd go through the computer which I found on her.
Speaker 1: iPad linked to the phone.
Speaker 2: No, that she'd phoned a cab, So why didn't they
Speaker 2: find that? Why didn't they go through her computer and
Speaker 2: have a lot.
Speaker 1: You're sorry you're found on her computer when you've gone from.
Speaker 2: Her computer, she's got another iPad at home. The iPad,
Speaker 2: so they're all connected. She made a call to an
Speaker 2: uber and I don't know if it turned up or
Speaker 2: what happened, but she'd made that call. And when I
Speaker 2: said to them, why you know, my consum was, why
Speaker 2: didn't they go into that computer? Like it's linked to
Speaker 2: her phone. Anything that was on that phone would have
Speaker 2: been lenked. She would have known who she was talking to,
Speaker 2: who she had, you know, all that stuff, and they
Speaker 2: didn't take the computer.
Speaker 1: Is that? At what point did they take a car
Speaker 1: straight away? Where was from?
Speaker 2: Terrible?
Speaker 1: It was that terrible? So they sees that that straight away.
Speaker 1: Do you hope to at some point in time sit
Speaker 1: down with police that take ownership of what has happened
Speaker 1: in regards to this investigation or from your perspective and
Speaker 1: until we hear from the police, we don't know their
Speaker 1: side of the story from your perspective. Failings in an investigation?
Speaker 1: Do you have to have a sit down and go
Speaker 1: through those so this type of thing doesn't happen again?
Speaker 2: No, why they've done it? What's going to be done?
Speaker 2: Like when I asked if the constable that was there
Speaker 2: the day that we found Audrey, and he walked up
Speaker 2: to me and he said, sorry for your condolence, and
Speaker 2: then he was telling you so when I said to him,
Speaker 2: I wanted to you know, like I wanted to put it.
Speaker 2: I was angry. I want to put a complaint in.
Speaker 2: And they when he is being addressed, is that's been sorted?
Speaker 2: Do you really need to make it further? And I
Speaker 2: kind of went, well, Okay, well it's been addressed.
Speaker 1: Maybe not see I see something like that, And I said,
Speaker 1: I'd be honest with you. I see people in situations
Speaker 1: like that, young young police. They don't know how.
Speaker 2: He's not young.
Speaker 1: Don't wreck my version of events. Okay, he might be inexperienced,
Speaker 1: just but inexperience some people don't know how. So if
Speaker 1: it's a clumsiness in the way to talk to a victim, perhaps.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Okay, might take that all right, don't be
Speaker 2: in the industry. He's a police officer, for God's sake.
Speaker 1: I had that view and look where it got me.
Speaker 1: You well, there's no higher honor as an investigator, as
Speaker 1: a police officer than too and higher honor and responsibility
Speaker 1: to investigate someone's death. And you know where people are
Speaker 1: making comments that you choose the wrong word, and that
Speaker 1: can be like a triggering effect for someone that's been
Speaker 1: through what you've gone through. I see how mistakes can
Speaker 1: be made, and genuine mistakes like that what I'm looking
Speaker 1: at from what you've told me, And I think with this,
Speaker 1: and we don't normally go this far, but I think
Speaker 1: we'll reach out to the police and see if if
Speaker 1: they can give their perspective on a couple of things,
Speaker 1: because some of the things that you've told me are
Speaker 1: quite quite shocking, and I think it is a failing
Speaker 1: in regards to the way matters should be investigated. And
Speaker 1: see what they say. You have said you don't want
Speaker 1: or it doesn't matter because it's happened.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm sorry. I'll probably rephrase it. It's not
Speaker 2: that I don't want to because at the coroner's report,
Speaker 2: that's when I want it to come out. That's when
Speaker 2: I want to hear it. I want to hear it
Speaker 2: all the excuses. I mean, I suppose it's probably good
Speaker 2: to hear what their excuses are.
Speaker 1: Well, a speculation here. I don't know what was acting
Speaker 1: on their mind, but I know when I was involved
Speaker 1: in it, I would say to junior police and bosses
Speaker 1: that I respect people that have seeing you to me,
Speaker 1: you make a mistake, a genuine mistake, and will support
Speaker 1: you like a genuine mistake, so a wrong assumption or
Speaker 1: different things, genuine mistake. I've seen the power of them,
Speaker 1: and in matters that I've been involved in where the
Speaker 1: commissioner has come up and apologized to some families and
Speaker 1: it meant a lot to them, and it was as
Speaker 1: simple as we're sorry, we could have done better, correct
Speaker 1: and that meant it didn't fix what was being done,
Speaker 1: but he did also say and will learn from these mistakes,
Speaker 1: So that I thought was very powerful, and that took
Speaker 1: about ten years to get the commissioner to come to
Speaker 1: this community and talk like that. But I know from
Speaker 1: their point of view, and I think they're comfortable with
Speaker 1: me speaking on their behalf. It did help them at
Speaker 1: least there was some acknowledgment that the mistakes were being made.
Speaker 1: Anyone that's listening to the podcasts to our chat here
Speaker 1: can hear the pain that you're going through and what
Speaker 1: you've been through, and the circumstances added to that pain
Speaker 1: is when police haven't done their job or you don't
Speaker 1: believe they've done their job, and that just adds adds
Speaker 1: to the trauma.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, like I don't know who I am anymore. I
Speaker 2: don't need you know. People say how are you? How
Speaker 2: do I answer that. I get up every day, I
Speaker 2: get dressed, I move on. I do what I have
Speaker 2: to do. I went to my doctor last night and
Speaker 2: she's like, are you using anything? Are you drinking? And
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I'm not drinking, I'm not taking drugs.
Speaker 2: I'm not using any medication. I would swim to clear
Speaker 2: my head. I can't do that. Now I haven't been
Speaker 2: able to get back into the ocean and swim with
Speaker 2: my friends. She has recommended that she's amazing and once
Speaker 2: again she's behind us as well, and it is going
Speaker 2: to be following this journey with me, and she has come,
Speaker 2: she will be coming to the coroner's report. Well, what's
Speaker 2: happening now is up every day. And she said to me,
Speaker 2: you know at early stage when she said to me, look, Kathleen,
Speaker 2: you need to own, you need to accept for you
Speaker 2: to start moving forward. I haven't even started to grieve.
Speaker 2: I can't talk to my How many people say, do
Speaker 2: you talk to her? Do you do this?
Speaker 1: Do that?
Speaker 2: I have got a war so high. I know she's
Speaker 2: with me. I love her every day, but I have
Speaker 2: got a war that is just protecting me so high
Speaker 2: because I need. I need some justice for my daughter.
Speaker 2: And if I crumble, I will crumble. And when I crumble,
Speaker 2: I know I am so scared to stop. I am
Speaker 2: so scared to stop motivating or I can't be alone.
Speaker 2: You know I can't. I'm not. I don't know who
Speaker 2: I am and I don't know who I'm ever going
Speaker 2: to be again. And I know people say time heills,
Speaker 2: but I'm sorry. I don't see that. I don't see
Speaker 2: how my life has any purpose. And don't get me wrong,
Speaker 2: I'm not you know, as I said, I'm not doing drugs,
Speaker 2: I'm not doing alcohol, I'm not suicidal, I'm not anything.
Speaker 2: But my life is not looking pretty. And for me,
Speaker 2: every day I get up is just purely for my
Speaker 2: daughter to get justice, because she is not a number.
Speaker 2: She is an amazing young woman that I will fight
Speaker 2: for until we get justice. I'm not even sure what
Speaker 2: that looks like yet.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you what in your mind?
Speaker 1: What is justice?
Speaker 2: Justice is? Once again, those little steps of people like
Speaker 2: him apologizing. What are the government? They all get to
Speaker 2: sit there and just tick their little boxes and just
Speaker 2: move on. Where's the heart? Where is the heart? There's
Speaker 2: no heart, there's no And for me and Trevor, where
Speaker 2: the case is finished as far as they're concerned, because
Speaker 2: he murdered himself and now it's just put in a
Speaker 2: filing cabinet and put away and we're just there to
Speaker 2: just And how does that happen? How does someone let
Speaker 2: someone out that has a record and a history to
Speaker 2: do that to it? Not a girl that's been in
Speaker 2: any kind of trouble with domestic violence. Didn't know. The
Speaker 2: man takes a woman who was going to serve for
Speaker 2: our country and a beautiful soul. He murders her. He
Speaker 2: takes her life away from her. He takes his life
Speaker 2: and it gets put in a filing cabinet and off
Speaker 2: we go. Where is where is the justice for her?
Speaker 2: Where is the justice for her friends who found her?
Speaker 2: That the support? There's been no support whatsoever for them. Children.
Speaker 2: They're all struggling. They're nineteen, the kids, they're nineteen years
Speaker 2: of age. Where's the support? The government have done this,
Speaker 2: they allowed him out. They need to take some responsibility
Speaker 2: and instead of keep fixing the people that are damaged
Speaker 2: in regards to drugs and alcohol and all that stuff,
Speaker 2: how about helping the people that are good people that
Speaker 2: have been out there. They're doing well, they're going to university,
Speaker 2: they're trying to make something their life, and they've been
Speaker 2: put in a situation that the government's put them in
Speaker 2: and there's not one bit of support, no counseling, no nothing,
Speaker 2: not even for me, but for them. It breaks my
Speaker 2: heart to think at nineteen, these young girls have to
Speaker 2: go through this. That's what the Where's the platform and
Speaker 2: where's the heart?
Speaker 1: Well, look in the answer to the questions, what is
Speaker 1: justice wears the heart? All these failings of the system.
Speaker 1: I look at it, breaking it down in parts. How
Speaker 1: was it investigated? Now, if mistakes were made, we've got
Speaker 1: to learn from those mistakes because someone else is going
Speaker 1: to be sitting in And I know this from my
Speaker 1: time in homicide. If we don't learn, someone else will
Speaker 1: be sitting in your position because more mistakes will be made.
Speaker 1: I have had so many families reach out to me
Speaker 1: when I was in the cops and when I'm out
Speaker 1: of the cops, saying, we're not sure if this has
Speaker 1: been done properly. Did the police check this. I've been
Speaker 1: involved in investigations that were written off as misadventure and
Speaker 1: turned out to be something something more more sinister. I've
Speaker 1: been involved in it. So I think that's an important
Speaker 1: platform that's about justice making sure that these type of
Speaker 1: things are handled properly. Everyone makes mistakes, and I don't
Speaker 1: get the sense and in all my conversations with you
Speaker 1: haven't been beating up on them. Want this person that person,
Speaker 1: You're just going this is what's happened. It shouldn't happen
Speaker 1: and by talking about it, hopefully it won't happen and
Speaker 1: people understand there is a responsibility that comes with investigating
Speaker 1: someone's death.
Speaker 2: But what about also to the support And that's the
Speaker 2: part too, Like, yes, the police, they've done it, they'll
Speaker 2: get a slap on the wrist, off they go, and
Speaker 2: you know, obviously these people have been involved, they're going
Speaker 2: to be more alert of course after this, especially having
Speaker 2: someone like me that's just not backing down. What about support?
Speaker 2: Where's that?
Speaker 1: Where's the support were you put in contact when it
Speaker 1: was confirmed that Audrey had been murdered? The victims of homicide?
Speaker 2: Did they a gracehouse? Amazing? Look, look they're great, they're great,
Speaker 2: they're beautiful, they're great.
Speaker 1: But the other people will be okay, But.
Speaker 2: Without being disrespectful, I'm talking to somebody that hasn't And look,
Speaker 2: and as I said, I'm not here to rubbish or
Speaker 2: do anyone, but I'm not talking to people that are
Speaker 2: in a situation who have Oh I don't know how
Speaker 2: to put this across. They're great and you know, the
Speaker 2: support in many ways they've been great. Anything to do
Speaker 2: with that situation For me, I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: do you actually have children. How can you sit here
Speaker 2: and say to me, we've granted you twenty hours of counseling,
Speaker 2: we can only one I'm unlyavailable between nine and five. Sorry,
Speaker 2: I can only have a breakdown between nine and five.
Speaker 2: I should be twenty four hours a day. I should
Speaker 2: be for the rest of my life if I need it.
Speaker 2: I'm not out there doing drugs and taking our cal
Speaker 2: I'm trying my best.
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, and you're a supports wrong.
Speaker 1: You're a victim of crime and the support is not
Speaker 1: adequate in regards to it. So that's something again, it's
Speaker 1: worthwhile worthwhile raising whether I don't know whether it can
Speaker 1: be improved or how it could be improved, but I
Speaker 1: do take on board what you're saying there, and the
Speaker 1: type of help you need might vary from what it
Speaker 1: might not be what other people need. Each trauma is
Speaker 1: handled differently by each each person. With the other people
Speaker 1: affected by crime, we need to have someone that they
Speaker 1: can go to to see are they entitled to? And
Speaker 1: I can only imagine Audrey's friends that what they've been through,
Speaker 1: and especially the ones that were at the scene, and
Speaker 1: how they're coping with it. In regards to we've talked
Speaker 1: about the investigation. I think something that's really worthwhile finding
Speaker 1: out is hold it. Because we talk tough, we're very
Speaker 1: good at talking tough about we're cracking down on domestic violence,
Speaker 1: and all these women have been killed by their ex
Speaker 1: partners and different things like that. I want to know
Speaker 1: and I hopefully, hopefully it will come out in the
Speaker 1: inquest about the person that killed Audrey? When did he
Speaker 1: commit the offenses he was charged with, and how long
Speaker 1: he was on the run for and what efforts were
Speaker 1: made to locate him? Because to me, they looked like
Speaker 1: that person was a serious risk of committing a violent
Speaker 1: or significant offense. What efforts were made after he's been
Speaker 1: granted bail from court, if he's committing other offenses, what
Speaker 1: efforts were made to locate him? And it's not that
Speaker 1: easy for people to hide these days.
Speaker 2: They retrieved that conversation from his phone what he did
Speaker 2: to my daughter, confessed to what he did. How are
Speaker 2: these people not accountable? How do these people hide him
Speaker 2: for three weeks, get a phone call and nothing can
Speaker 2: be done? How is that? How is that?
Speaker 1: Right now? Is this a hearing for the cornial inquest
Speaker 1: on the twenty third of October, or is it the mention?
Speaker 2: I guess again once again, I think I think it's
Speaker 2: just a meeting where we catch up. It's not a hearing.
Speaker 2: It's definitely not a hearing.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's just a meeting. I think that before
Speaker 1: the meeting you gave their well planned with These are
Speaker 1: the questions I want asks and have those document them.
Speaker 1: Have them. These are the questions I hope you can't demand,
Speaker 1: but you can hope there are from an inquest and
Speaker 1: put them on notice there for this podcast, and I'll
Speaker 1: look at my producer to hear that we might revisit
Speaker 1: this one, will put it out, but we also might
Speaker 1: revisit it after the inquest and just see see if
Speaker 1: anything has been achieved. And people listening to listening to
Speaker 1: the podcast before the inquest will know that we'll be
Speaker 1: watching closely about what potential lessons.
Speaker 2: I mean, the whole idea of light up, the whole,
Speaker 2: the ritual, the whole everything is to get the support
Speaker 2: and the backing. We need as much people behind us
Speaker 2: to help me. I need help, and I'm not saying
Speaker 2: I'm going to change the world. I want justice for
Speaker 2: my daughter, and that's where it's got to start. First.
Speaker 2: I can't move forward for any I've had a lot
Speaker 2: of people try and reach out to me. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I can't. I don't have that energy for anyone else.
Speaker 2: This is purely for me right now, about Audrey and
Speaker 2: getting her story of who she is, that she was
Speaker 2: not in a domestic violence relationship. She didn't. I did
Speaker 2: not know this gentleman, who Audrey is, this amazing young woman,
Speaker 2: and that we get answers and there's change and there's justice,
Speaker 2: and there's some kind of I don't know, Like as
Speaker 2: I said, I really still don't exactly know, but it
Speaker 2: will come. It'll come what you're looking for, it'll come
Speaker 2: because I'm not I'm not settling for I will not.
Speaker 2: I will not.
Speaker 1: I Look, I'm not an expert on dealing with the
Speaker 1: emotional trauma, but I've seen enough of it in my
Speaker 1: time in homicide, and I think what people. You can't
Speaker 1: even articulate what you want?
Speaker 2: You know where I want to live?
Speaker 1: You want to grab it, you want to you want this.
Speaker 1: You want to find out what's happened. You want to
Speaker 1: be know exactly what's happened, understand why it happened, how
Speaker 1: it happened, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want accountability to accountability from the all the
Speaker 2: accountability from what they have done, what they have done,
Speaker 2: they have done. He murdered my daughter, but he would
Speaker 2: never have done that if they actually locked him up.
Speaker 2: That's where it starts. It's a rippling effect that people
Speaker 2: just can't This is where the heart goes. This is
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. If someone's in a job constantly where
Speaker 2: it just becomes replacing and they just they become hard,
Speaker 2: and they make mistakes and they pulled back for a
Speaker 2: little while, have a holiday, go and do what you
Speaker 2: have to do, and learn to have a heart again,
Speaker 2: because when you start getting into that place where you
Speaker 2: don't have a heart, you're not helping anyone. And for
Speaker 2: me having a heart and how I feel about my daughter,
Speaker 2: I'm going to rock this world and I'm telling you
Speaker 2: I'm going to get justice because I won't stop. I
Speaker 2: will not stop.
Speaker 1: To me, it looks like Audrey has been caught up
Speaker 1: in this domestic violence discussions that we've had in the
Speaker 1: and she wasn't even in the relationship. She was just
Speaker 1: an innocent person that was caught up in the wrong
Speaker 1: place at the wrong time by this creep that's looking
Speaker 1: at the inflicting violence on someone and she she's been
Speaker 1: one of the innocent people caught up in this. So
Speaker 1: all the discussion about domestic violence, this is a potential
Speaker 1: flow on effect from it. And if we're going to
Speaker 1: get touch and in that.
Speaker 2: We've we've got a nonprofit charity set up, and as
Speaker 2: I said, when I get justice, I will be putting
Speaker 2: myself hopefully be able to do that move forward into
Speaker 2: Audrey's nonprofit charity court stand with Audrey, and that is
Speaker 2: a rippling effect for all my friends and all the
Speaker 2: people around me that need to do what they need
Speaker 2: to do here. But for me, I need to just
Speaker 2: focus one hundred and ten percent on Audrey and then
Speaker 2: later we'll see what happens. But I'm there anyway, all
Speaker 2: the time, for all of them, all her friends, everyone,
Speaker 2: I'm the one that's picking up the phone and talking
Speaker 2: to them.
Speaker 1: Well, I can see the emotion, I can see the passion,
Speaker 1: and I can feel the anger, and I can feel
Speaker 1: the energy, and I can feel the sadness all that's
Speaker 1: coming across. And you said that you're not a helicopter parent,
Speaker 1: You're a lioness.
Speaker 2: What do I do when it's all finished? Like what
Speaker 2: do I do when I have to stop?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: How how do I live?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: How how do I breathe?
Speaker 3: How do I get up? How do I when I
Speaker 3: start feeling this, when those roles come in and I
Speaker 3: can't stop them.
Speaker 2: I know how painful it is. And I put that
Speaker 2: wall up, and I've taken up cigarettes and I have
Speaker 2: a cigarette and I have a cigarette because I need
Speaker 2: to block this to be fine. The I need to
Speaker 2: find the strength. And I'm looking after myself. I'm eating,
Speaker 2: not sweat, but I'm eating, and I'm sleeping as much
Speaker 2: as I can. And I've got so much support around me.
Speaker 2: I'm going about it in all the right ways.
Speaker 1: I learned something about the grief on the podcast a
Speaker 1: couple of episodes ago. And it's funny you think you've
Speaker 1: seen all sides of it and understand it. And someone
Speaker 1: who had been through horrific circumstances said. The kind of
Speaker 1: thing that was said to the person was how are
Speaker 1: you feeling today? Because when people come up, and I thought,
Speaker 1: it's not a bad way because you are going to
Speaker 1: go on that emotional rollcase and it's just a check
Speaker 1: in how you're feeling. Today Today might be a little
Speaker 1: bit better than yesterday, it might be worse than tomorrow,
Speaker 1: who knows. But yeah, how you're feeling today? And the
Speaker 1: lesson I took away from that is that you've just
Speaker 1: got to take each day as it comes.
Speaker 2: Well, I can't answer that. That's a hard one for me.
Speaker 2: For me would be more, tell me about Audrey. Tell
Speaker 2: me about Audrey, Give me something about Audrey. Let's not
Speaker 2: focus on me on how I feel because I don't
Speaker 2: know how to answer that, and I can't go I'm
Speaker 2: great or I'm shit. So excuse me, but do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like I can't. I'm not a liar.
Speaker 2: I say it how it is. So I don't want
Speaker 2: to sit there and go, oh I'm fine or oh
Speaker 2: no I'm not. I don't want to be heavy. I
Speaker 2: don't want to be this. I just want to go
Speaker 2: tell someone, walk up and just go tell me about Audry,
Speaker 2: or tell me this about Audery, or talk about Audrey.
Speaker 1: You told a lot of people about Audrey the day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: plays rugby league, swims after sharks rides, made the bikes,
Speaker 1: travels overseas, going skiing.
Speaker 2: No, she did everything, playing the violin, playing the piano,
Speaker 2: playing guitar, you know, traveling. She just rock climbing, you know,
Speaker 2: like she worked two jobs, going to university doing a
Speaker 2: nine man. This girl just.
Speaker 1: These are the people of the worlds.
Speaker 2: That's what she got into the navy. And how good
Speaker 2: would she have done? And she wanted you know, her
Speaker 2: goals three five novels but a year which were all inspiration,
Speaker 2: you know, how to change the thinking of brain, and
Speaker 2: how to motivate and all this to do I man,
Speaker 2: which she succeeded to buy a house at the end
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't doubt it.
Speaker 2: Oh, she already had thirty grand in the bank. Like,
Speaker 2: and she worked two jobs, could you RSL and Kunolla RSL?
Speaker 2: You know, like she was doing uni goal from one
Speaker 2: to another, training for the affluon up at five o'clock
Speaker 2: every morning, doing spin classes and then running. Getting up
Speaker 2: in the morning doing a spin class, going running, doing
Speaker 2: in a sunrise swim, coming home doing of that, then
Speaker 2: going for another run, jumping in the ocean for sunset.
Speaker 2: She was a wise soul, certainly amazing beautiful. That was
Speaker 2: just she was always a blossom. She's a natural beauty.
Speaker 2: But she found herself and she was on that way.
Speaker 2: She was happy, she was bribing and he took that
Speaker 2: from her and us And how I cannot find someone
Speaker 2: like her? A kid?
Speaker 1: That's how they found finances? Is it?
Speaker 2: As I said, I'll be told, this is probably my purpose.
Speaker 2: I didn't come into this world to fight, but I
Speaker 2: will be.
Speaker 1: Well the person that you bought into the world short
Speaker 1: short time. But gee, she burnt bright.
Speaker 2: She sure did.
Speaker 1: She's left an indelible mark. Or the concert that Gosford Stadium,
Speaker 1: I call it Gosford Stadium, poly Tech outdoor head up,
Speaker 1: both birds of take. Oh my god, she'd be smiling
Speaker 1: looking looking at that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it should be at the front. And that
Speaker 2: was the thing. She loved a music. It was so
Speaker 2: funny like she you know, she was so romantic and
Speaker 2: loved and had such high standards of you know, love
Speaker 2: and you know what she wanted in so many ways.
Speaker 2: But you know, then there was the music, like she
Speaker 2: just loved that, you know. And that's why everyone used
Speaker 2: to think she drank because you just like, but she didn't,
Speaker 2: you know, like she just lived high correct.
Speaker 1: Well, she she had a concert there and other things
Speaker 1: that they've they've done for it. She's not going to
Speaker 1: be forgotten, and that's certainly why you're you're you're here.
Speaker 1: She's not.
Speaker 2: Definitely not, definitely not, and you know, and I want
Speaker 2: her to her be the girl she is, not the
Speaker 2: girl that was taken at the Creek by domestic violence.
Speaker 2: I want her to be Audrey. And I want everyone
Speaker 2: to learn who she is and what she is and
Speaker 2: take a book, take a page out of her book,
Speaker 2: because honestly, she was one of her kind. And if
Speaker 2: you was to say that things happen in a reason
Speaker 2: and this was her time, I would take that and
Speaker 2: say yep. But the fact that is the way she
Speaker 2: was taken. I have reached out to so many religions
Speaker 2: and just try to get there, get a feel on
Speaker 2: how this is. And nothing makes sense. No one can
Speaker 2: tell me so, And I'm the one that has to
Speaker 2: live every day of that last vision and how she passed,
Speaker 2: and how it's just been put in a filing cabinet
Speaker 2: and put to bed.
Speaker 1: It won't be put to bed, no, it's more. I look,
Speaker 1: I've got to thank you for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 1: I know Undernard and how hard it is for you
Speaker 1: to talk about the answers that you want will try
Speaker 1: and get bad chances.
Speaker 2: So I need to get there, and you need to
Speaker 2: be honest a little enough. I know that the whole
Speaker 2: team behind is there.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't like to be taking you guys on. We
Speaker 1: might we might wrap it up here, So thanks for
Speaker 1: your time.
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving