1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Political donations. Now, donations and gifts to political parties, MPs 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: and candidates will be banned under proposed new laws in 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: a world first. The Premiere vowing to outlaw political donations, 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: prison terms and fines to be imposed for breaches of 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: the legislation. The Premiere on five Double a Breakfast, saying 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: it'll apply to all stakeholders and interest groups. This is 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: a little bit of what he had to say this morning. 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: We're not banning donations from some businesses or some wealthy individuals. 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 2: We're banning donations from everybody, and that includes unions. So 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 2: political parties will have to abide by a very strict 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: set of laws that makes it clear they cannot receive 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: or accept money from anybody. Now respect a third party, 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: is you raise an important question that we deliberated on 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: in quite a bit of detail, and and I hope 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: and anticipate will be part of the public consultation now 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: that we've released the draft legislation, is how do we 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 2: regulate third parties? Can we even do it? And that's 18 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: where we start to run into difficulties in respect to 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: high court decisions that have been made over decades. So 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: my view as a CARNEI stands is that we've got 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: to focus on what we can control, and we believe 22 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: that we can legally and quite appropriately legislate and regulate 23 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: the way that political parties themselves conduct their operations and 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 2: band donations for them. 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: Accordingly, let's find out about the reality. Is the premiere right, 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,919 Speaker 1: I'm sure he probably is, Emeritus Professor Clem mcintie, University 27 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: of Adelaide. Both political parties have been calling for this, Clem, 28 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: good morning, Good morning, Mashew, and they have haven they 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: liberals have wanted this as well. 30 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: Well. 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: Yes, there's been a series of electoral reforms undertaking recent 32 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 3: years in South Australia, from what we might think of 33 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: as fairly minor banning placards on stoby polls and so 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: on core flutes, to what we're seeing at the moment, 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: a ban on all political donations. It's certainly something that 36 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 3: I think warrants serious consideration. There's no doubt that the 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,839 Speaker 3: ability to donate money to political parties is frequently done 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 3: with an expectation of influence. Subsequently, you know, if you've 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: given enough money to a party, there's a reasonable expectation 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 3: you can pick up the phone and have a chat 41 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 3: with a minister or a leader about certain things that 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 3: may or may not advantage your your business, or your 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 3: union or or your lobby group, whatever it might be. 44 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 3: And the more equal we can make the playing field 45 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: for all political players in theory, the better. We want 46 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 3: an equal playing field where where no one group or 47 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: organization starts for the massive advantage over another one, whether 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 3: that's financial or something else. Now, having pardon me, having 49 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 3: said all of that, there's obviously some questions about it, 50 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 3: and the Premiers just outline one of those there about 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 3: third parties. Does it stop you know, you and me, 52 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: for example, placing advertisements during election time which may or 53 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 3: may not be calling for explicit support for one party, 54 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 3: or trying to affect the debates and so on. So 55 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 3: how that's how that's worded will be interesting. As the 56 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: Premier said, the High Court in previous determinations have found 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 3: there as an implied right to freedom of political communication. 58 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: So you can't limit speech or you know, advertisements or 59 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: things like that in certain circumstances, but there can be 60 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: limits when they seem to be proportionate and have a 61 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: legitimate purpose. So that provides a pretty open field for 62 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: the High Court to be determining the validity of any 63 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: legislation that the state puts up. So I think it's 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 3: a great debate to be having. It's something we should 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: be looking at in principle. It's a great ideas a 66 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 3: question of whether you can craft the legislation to really 67 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: bring about the outcome that the Premier clearly wants. 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely don't disagree with the word of that. I 69 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: just wonder how it will play out with perhaps and 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: the left of politics is more organized in this regard, 71 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: But for instance, you've got get Up, which is largely 72 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: seen to be a left side of politics organization in 73 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: terms of the campaigns they run and the things they 74 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: believe in. So instead of somebody donating money or group 75 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: business whatever, union donating money to the Labor Party, could 76 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: they in effect donate it to get Up, which then 77 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: runs the campaign the Labor Party would have run as 78 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: an example. 79 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 3: And that's what we need to see more of in 80 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 3: terms of the detail when the Premier was talking about 81 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 3: third parties and for every get Up, there's an equivalent. 82 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: If you remember during the money resources rent tax for 83 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: the money spent by the mining lobby. Yes, in relation 84 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 3: to that was every bit as generous is anything get 85 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 3: Up could do. So it does work on both sides 86 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: of politics, is no doubt about that. And the other consideration. 87 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: While we want a level playing field, were don't to 88 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: exclude new players. So if I'm a registered party, then 89 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 3: I'm entitled to some public support as I as I 90 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: understand it from the proposed legislation. But if if you 91 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: know you're starting a new party and trying to find 92 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: some candidates and so on, on what basis do you 93 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 3: expect a public donation? You know, you might be able 94 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: to raise some of your own money, but how much 95 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: can I donate to you before you become a registered 96 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: party and so on. So there's a whole series of 97 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 3: questions there. As I say, the goal is laudable, the 98 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: more we can constrain the you know, I was going 99 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: to say waste to the bottom, but it's race to 100 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 3: the top in terms of expenditure. But political parties engage 101 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 3: in I think, the better, but we don't want to 102 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: do so in such a way that entrenches existing advantage 103 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 3: or just deflects money that might have otherwise be spent 104 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: on political parties into sort of parallel campaigns designed to 105 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 3: achieve the same end. 106 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: Should who would challenge this in the High Court ultimately? 107 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: I mean, who would take it that far? It would 108 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: have to be an interest group who would think by 109 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: being allowed to donate money to one political party or 110 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: the other, there's a bigger payoff at the end than 111 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: the cost of going to court. 112 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we can probably all think of a recent 113 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: political party that spent hundreds of millions of dollars on 114 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 3: advertisements for relatively small amounts of a small political success, 115 00:06:52,760 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 3: and someone an individual trying to just spend a vast 116 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 3: sum of money to buy a political influence, either by 117 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: electing their own candidates or influencing existing political parties, may 118 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: well take a case saying this is a denial of 119 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: the implied right to political communication, which the High Court 120 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 3: has found. 121 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: It's a better system, though, isn't it. As you said 122 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: at the outset, this is this is better for everyone 123 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: really in terms of somebody who or a group who 124 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: has given money to a political party then having no 125 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: reason to pick up the phone and expecting the politician 126 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: would listen to them. As a result, that that's got 127 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: to play out better for democracy. 128 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want you don't want individuals or organizations 129 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 3: or groups being able to effectively buy influence. So you know, 130 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 3: if if your listener picks up the phone tries to 131 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: talk to their MP they might have to go through 132 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,559 Speaker 3: a few hoops to get their voices hurt. But somebody 133 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 3: who's made massive donations to the party and is well 134 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,119 Speaker 3: known is likely to get a get a quicker and 135 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: more sympathetic hearing. 136 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: Here's my private number. 137 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the sort of thing we're trying to stop, 138 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: I think with the proposed legislation, And as I said, 139 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: that's a laudable aim. I think the other consideration we've 140 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 3: got to think about is, you know what the parties 141 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 3: spend their money on massive advertisements, advertising campaigns during the 142 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: electoral period, and you know, the way that that was 143 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: once done is changing. We're no longer is the lot 144 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: reliant upon buying time on mainstream media, television and so, 145 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: and parties are using the internet much more astutely than 146 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 3: even in recent times. So arguably the cost of parties 147 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 3: getting their message out is not as substantial as it 148 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 3: once was, and so the need for money perhaps is less. 149 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 3: No political party would agree with me, but you can 150 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 3: make a case that you don't need to spend as 151 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: much money to get your message out now as you 152 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: once did when it was just newspapers and television and radio. So, 153 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: you know, parties maybe need a bit less money. A 154 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 3: modest level of public funding for parties, I think is 155 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 3: a good thing. If that reduces the need for drawing 156 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 3: upon private donations, and if we can find a way 157 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 3: to take the private donations and the influence that that 158 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 3: brings out of it, then we've got a better system. 159 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 3: It's a question of walking at fine line to make 160 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 3: it as effective as the premier wants it to be 161 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 3: and legal at the same time. 162 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: Well, so we've banned core flutes, we're in the process 163 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: of banning political donations. That we banned people handing out 164 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: how to boat cards on the day. Yet is that 165 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: part of all of this. 166 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 3: No, you can still do that, you know, there's ways 167 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 3: you can render that redundant as it were by changes 168 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 3: in the ballot paper and so on. Has mainly, for example, 169 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 3: where they have a slightly different electoral system, there's virtually 170 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 3: nobody bothering with how to vote cards because then the 171 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: names on the ballot paper in random order and so on, 172 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 3: and so it makes it very difficult to present how 173 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 3: to vote card that says, you know, put your numbers 174 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 3: in this order. So there are ways to do that. 175 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 3: I don't think, I mean how to vote cards. I 176 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 3: don't think it's a problem having a presence at the 177 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: polling stations. I think encouraging voters to think about the 178 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 3: issues as they walk in to cast their votes not 179 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 3: such a bad thing, as long as it's not running 180 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: a gauntlet, as long as they're not too close, as 181 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: long as it's done in the right spirit and without 182 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 3: any aggression. And I think that's less of a problem 183 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: than the ability to buy influence with massive donations, which 184 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 3: which is really where we are at the moment. 185 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: It is like running a gauntlet and I'm just heading 186 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: for the sausages usually, But anyway, that's right. 187 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 3: Well, there's limits about how close you can get to 188 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,599 Speaker 3: the gates and so on, So as I say, I 189 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: think that's less sort of a problem, and it's part 190 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: of I think it's part of what we should celebrate 191 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 3: about voting in Australia, that openness with which we do it. 192 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 3: The sausage sizzle as you say that, primary school making 193 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: a few dollars and so on. Unfortunately, more and more 194 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 3: of us are voting pre poll and fewer people are 195 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 3: turning up on those Saturdays, but that's probably just another 196 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 3: another gradual tendency we'll see more. 197 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: Of, yeah, I suspect, So Clem, appreciate your insights. 198 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks so much. 199 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: Match the Meritors Professor Clem McIntyre on the State government's 200 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: proposed changes to introduce an electoral donation ban world leading 201 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: as well. So it hasn't been done anywhere else according 202 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: to the Premiere, which is interesting too, so leading the 203 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: way on that as we have done with electoral reforms 204 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: in SA for over a century. Coming back to what 205 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: I was saying earlier with the anniversary today of Nurial 206 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: Matters addressing the Adelaide Town Hall and essay being the 207 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: second place in the world and the first in Australia 208 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: to give women the right to vote and the right 209 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: to stand for election in South Australia at the same 210 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: time amazing