Speaker 1: This is the sound of a red Maga hat going
Speaker 1: up in flames. As Donald Trump tries to hose down
Speaker 1: criticisms of his mishandling of the Epstein files, some of
Speaker 1: his most ardent supporters are now turning against him. Naga
Speaker 1: hats are off America. First hats are on Burn B B.
Speaker 2: Burn.
Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM.
Speaker 1: For years, Donald Trump fueled the conspiracy theories related to
Speaker 1: the notorious sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, promising that if he
Speaker 1: was re elected, he would uncover the truth about the
Speaker 1: powerful people connected with him. Now he's saying there is
Speaker 1: no list, It's a hoax cooked up by the Democrats,
Speaker 1: and any supporters who believe there's more to see are
Speaker 1: weak linked Today Tech Empower reporter for The Guardian, Nick
Speaker 1: Robins early on how the Epstein backlashes opated mega what
Speaker 1: it means for Trump's group on power. This is part
Speaker 1: one of a two party interview. It's Monday, July twenty one, Nick,
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Donald Trump cultivated the Epstein conspiracy
Speaker 1: throughout his campaign to decount president. Can you lay out
Speaker 1: how he talked about it and what it meant to
Speaker 1: his supporters. Definitely.
Speaker 3: It meant a lot to his supporters, and he talked
Speaker 3: about it quite a bit. It was something that during
Speaker 3: the campaign he brought up as one of his many
Speaker 3: campaign promises, that he could bring to light things that
Speaker 3: the Democrats had suppressed, or that he could expose things
Speaker 3: that his supporters cared about. When he was asked by
Speaker 3: Fox News last year, he made references to being able
Speaker 3: to release the files if he was elected.
Speaker 4: Would you do classify the nine to eleven files?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Would you class fight JFK files.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I did.
Speaker 1: I did a lot of it. Would you declassify the
Speaker 1: Epstein files.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would, Yes, I would. And while he
Speaker 3: was sort of stoking his own ability to unleash this information,
Speaker 3: he was playing into this QAnon broader conspiracy movement that
Speaker 3: Trump was the savior of this and that he could
Speaker 3: expose all of the wrongdoing that they felt had been perpetrated.
Speaker 4: That's the cross of the theory.
Speaker 1: Is this belief that you are secretly saving the world
Speaker 1: from this sitanic cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Does that
Speaker 1: sound like something you are behind.
Speaker 2: Oh I haven't, I haven't heard that. But Uh, is
Speaker 2: that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing?
Speaker 2: I mean, if if I can help save the world
Speaker 2: from problems, I'm willing to do it. I'm willing to
Speaker 2: put myself out there.
Speaker 3: And it became really central to a lot of Maga
Speaker 3: Trump World followers to really care about this conspiracy and
Speaker 3: really care about the release of the Epstein files.
Speaker 1: Can you just lie at what diaphors?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Epstein files sort of mean a lot of
Speaker 3: different things to different people. At the base, the Epstein
Speaker 3: files are the federal government's investigative files that pertain to
Speaker 3: the Epstein prosecution. Epstein was charged and convicted with sex
Speaker 3: offender crimes, and the federal investigation into how he committed
Speaker 3: those crimes is a tangible set of files. They exist,
Speaker 3: they are out there. A lot of them have actually
Speaker 3: been already released over the years, stuff like his address
Speaker 3: book has been made public. However, colloquially, the Epstein files
Speaker 3: have taken on a bunch of different meanings, and a
Speaker 3: lot of the things that people talk about when they're
Speaker 3: talking about the Epstein files, especially among the people who
Speaker 3: are really hardcore into Epstein conspiracies, is that the Epstein
Speaker 3: files really mean that there is this client list that exists,
Speaker 3: this specific list of all of the people who Jeffrey
Speaker 3: Epstein did business with or was wrapped up in his
Speaker 3: world of sex offenses. And so that's for a certain
Speaker 3: section of people, really what they care about this client list.
Speaker 1: Right, So this list is clearly very important to his base.
Speaker 1: Once Trump gets back into the White House, what does
Speaker 1: he do.
Speaker 3: So very quickly after the inauguration, the Justice Department is
Speaker 3: commissioned to launch an investigation into the Epstein prosecution, into
Speaker 3: this idea of the files, with the sort of implicit
Speaker 3: promise that it's all going to come out. The Epstein
Speaker 3: files are going to be released. And General Pam Bondi,
Speaker 3: who becomes a sort of central character in this saga
Speaker 3: in February, says that it's a client list sitting on
Speaker 3: her desk right now, ready for her to review.
Speaker 4: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.
Speaker 1: Well, that really happen. It's sitting on my desk right
Speaker 1: now to review. That's been a directive by President Trunk.
Speaker 3: And the people get very excited about this, and at
Speaker 3: some point she even follows it up by releasing what
Speaker 3: is called Phase one of the Epstein files. A bunch
Speaker 3: of handpicked conservative influencers are brought to the White House
Speaker 3: and they walk out of there with these binders full
Speaker 3: of what is the supposed new release of Epstein files.
Speaker 4: In this case, in Epstein's case, it is incredibly disturbing.
Speaker 4: We have flight logs, we have information names that will
Speaker 4: come out.
Speaker 3: But in a first sign that this is about to
Speaker 3: go wrong, it's very soon determined that what was released
Speaker 3: to these influencers is basically already public. It's all this
Speaker 3: stuff that's already known. There isn't really anything in there
Speaker 3: that people care about. There's certainly no list, and people
Speaker 3: begin to wonder what's going on with this investigation, what's happening.
Speaker 3: People lose faith in Pambondi a little bit. A bunch
Speaker 3: of the magabase gets very mad at this, and then
Speaker 3: in early July, the Justice Department releases an unsigned memo
Speaker 3: saying that actually the investigation is concluded. There is no
Speaker 3: client list, and there's no conspiracy, and there's no one
Speaker 3: else to prosecute. And this is really what kicks off
Speaker 3: this current round of outrage, this idea that not only
Speaker 3: is there nothing more forthcoming, that the Attorney general who
Speaker 3: just said that there was a list on her desk
Speaker 3: now says there's nothing to be seen here.
Speaker 1: Right, So hew did MAGA respond?
Speaker 3: I mean, they did not take it well. Maga world
Speaker 3: really has this backlash.
Speaker 1: I just got the office. I'm gonna go throw up.
Speaker 2: Actually, and as only happens every few years when something
Speaker 2: really really bad happens or something, I mean, I'm physically
Speaker 2: that's gonna put probably right now.
Speaker 3: You have a lot of people who have been making
Speaker 3: this their bread and butter of content, creation of the
Speaker 3: narrative that they're promoting about the government and about Trump
Speaker 3: and about the way that Democrats have covered this up.
Speaker 1: But Trump will come in and he'll make it all right.
Speaker 3: And these are really prominent voices, These sort of mega
Speaker 3: influencers who have tremendous reach and tremendous clout, make.
Speaker 4: Some noise if you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.
Speaker 3: You have people like Candice Owns telling her audience that
Speaker 3: Trump thinks that his followers are stupid.
Speaker 1: It seems like you think your base is stupid. That's
Speaker 1: how I feel. I feel like Trump thinks his base
Speaker 1: is stupid.
Speaker 3: You have Theovon Joe Rogan start to ask questions and
Speaker 3: make fun of the way that there's been this complete
Speaker 3: flip flop.
Speaker 4: They've got videotape, and then all of a sudden, they
Speaker 4: don't you know, you have the director of the FBI
Speaker 4: on the show saying, there's no ta if there was
Speaker 4: nothing you're looking for is on those tapes.
Speaker 3: Like what Tucker Carlson goes off on it and begins
Speaker 3: espousing other conspiracy theories about you know, Epstein's alleged international connections,
Speaker 3: and it just begins to be even more opportunities for
Speaker 3: the average maga bass and Trump supporter to get upset
Speaker 3: about this, and they're met. They're genuinely upset because this
Speaker 3: is something that they genuinely care about. And whether Trump
Speaker 3: is in a bind because he has touted the existence
Speaker 3: of something that he can't present now, or whether it's
Speaker 3: because he has lost an exact bead on this aspect
Speaker 3: his followers, it does seem like for the time being,
Speaker 3: this is not something that is going away in the
Speaker 3: way that he hopes, and it's turning into this situation
Speaker 3: where he's losing a grip that he's held very closely
Speaker 3: and very tightly for a long time.
Speaker 1: After the break al Mosquet is the fray and capitalizes Nick.
Speaker 1: When the Trump administration announced I had finished their investigation
Speaker 1: into the Epstein files, I released a video of Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Epstein's prison cell on the Nautius Fan Dead. Can you
Speaker 1: just explain why they did that? And Howard Backfawd.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's a significance because Jeffrey Epstein is said
Speaker 3: to have killed himself in his cell, and they wanted
Speaker 3: to release proof that there was not any sort of
Speaker 3: outside interference into his incarceration that would have suggested that
Speaker 3: he was killed or that there was some sort of
Speaker 3: nefarious organization. They claimed to release the raw file of
Speaker 3: his cell. Then very quickly it's revealed by Wired that
Speaker 3: there has been some doctoring of the video that they released, and.
Speaker 1: That footage, as people noted, appeared to be missing an
Speaker 1: entire minute. Well guess it. Get this. According to a
Speaker 1: new Wired investigation public yesterday published yesterday, that video is
Speaker 1: actually missing approximately two minutes and fifty three seconds, So
Speaker 1: the whole thing's not going away.
Speaker 3: So that just adds a whole other big implosion to
Speaker 3: the way that MAGA is reacting, to the way that
Speaker 3: the administration is talking about and releasing information about the
Speaker 3: Epstein files.
Speaker 1: So that doesn't look good for Trump. Is he handled it?
Speaker 3: Not only did Trump begin to say that there was
Speaker 3: nothing to see here, he actually began to lash out
Speaker 3: and get angry at supporters who kept bringing it up.
Speaker 2: No, I know, it's a hopx. It's started by Democrats.
Speaker 2: It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats,
Speaker 2: and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net,
Speaker 2: and so they try and do the Democrats work, and
Speaker 2: they're wasting that time.
Speaker 3: With He issued this very long post on his social
Speaker 3: media website Truth Social, where he said that Epstein was
Speaker 3: a hoax perpetrated by the radical left.
Speaker 4: Their new scam is what well forever call the Jeffrey
Speaker 4: Epstein hoax, and my past supporters have bought into the
Speaker 4: BS hook line and sinker. Trump adding, let these weaklings
Speaker 4: continue forward and do the Democrats work. Don't even think
Speaker 4: about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success, because I
Speaker 4: don't want their support anymore.
Speaker 3: He essentially was hoping that people would just forget about this.
Speaker 3: At some point, he called it boring in interviews he
Speaker 3: said that he couldn't believe people were still talking about it,
Speaker 3: really bashed the very people who had brought him into
Speaker 3: the White House and who were some of his most
Speaker 3: supervent support. And that has continued and he has really
Speaker 3: vilified the people who keep caring about this.
Speaker 1: And Nikki cover elon Musk. Last time we spike, he
Speaker 1: told us about the friendship breakap between Musk and Trump.
Speaker 1: So how is Musk capitalizing on this? Yeah?
Speaker 3: So this has actually been something that between Musk and
Speaker 3: Trump started off as what felt like a red line
Speaker 3: in their breakup. As soon as Musk began to bring
Speaker 3: up the Epstein files and say that Trump might be involved,
Speaker 3: it took on this character of, oh, this might not
Speaker 3: be a little spat that they fix. This might be
Speaker 3: a more permanent breakup. And since we talked last, Musk
Speaker 3: has really doubled down on this and he's been tweeting
Speaker 3: about this fairly consistently. He's been making fun of why
Speaker 3: the administration is not releasing these He's been further suggesting
Speaker 3: that it's because Trump is involved. Their relationship has continued
Speaker 3: to deteriorate, and this has given Musk a lot of
Speaker 3: ammunition as he seeks to get back at Trump and
Speaker 3: as he seeks to promote his own potential third party
Speaker 3: that he's announced. So in doing this, Trump has left
Speaker 3: himself open to these kinds of attacks, while Musk has
Speaker 3: been able to look at what's going on on x
Speaker 3: formerly Twitter and say, oh, people are talking about this,
Speaker 3: people are upset. Every time I tweet about this, it
Speaker 3: stokes the fire even more, it gets more media coverage,
Speaker 3: and so this has become a real asset for him
Speaker 3: in their current feud.
Speaker 1: This is part one of a two party interview. In
Speaker 1: the next installment, we hear how far back Donald Trump's
Speaker 1: friendship with Jeffrey Epstein goes and find out why despot
Speaker 1: all the controversies that have played Trump, this could be
Speaker 1: the one that undoes him. It's called Another Wonderful Secret,
Speaker 1: the letter Trump denies sending Epstein, and it's in your
Speaker 1: feed down.
Speaker 4: M