1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge that traditional custodians of the land 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced the Gadigle people of 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: the Orination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: This episode contains discussion of suicide. If this raises any 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: issues for you, support is available through the links and 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: phone numbers in the show notes. 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: It's September eleventh, two thousand and one, and Evon Kennedy 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 2: is on board American Airlines Flight seventy seven on her 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 2: way back home after the trip of a lifetime. Her 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: son Simon is at home in Australia. He's just gone 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 2: to bed, but as he's about to fall asleep, he 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: gets a phone call from his brother Lee. Lee tells 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 2: him some planes have hit buildings in America. He asked 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: them to check their mum's itinery. Simon and Lee make 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: the horrifying discovery that their mum is on the plane 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: that's crashed into the Pentagon. 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: Notis and breaking news just through and CNN is reporting 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: tonight that a plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: We believe that a plane has crashed into the World 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 2: Trade Center in New York. 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: The unthinkable happened today the World Trade Center both towers 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: God God. 23 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: She is one of the two nine hundred and seventy 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: seven people who tragically lost their lives that day. They're 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: both numb, watching on alongside the rest of the world 26 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 2: in complete horror. I'm a Middleton and this is Headgame Today, 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 2: Simon Kennedy on finding and creating happiness after unimaginable trauma. 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: Simon Kennedy, thank you ever so much for joining me 29 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: on my podcast, head Game. How are you mate? 30 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: I'm pretty good. Yeah, I'm good. I'm I'm busier than 31 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: I've ever been in my life, but I'm good. 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: Really really excited me to have you on and to 33 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: really dig deep into that mindset of yours. Just talk 34 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: me through your childhood. 35 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, looks started out pretty pretty normally. You know. I 36 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 3: was born in the western suburbs of Sydney. It was 37 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 3: really wonderful for me. An older brother who's about a 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: year older than me, and growing up out in a 39 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 3: very safe suburban life with a lot of love around us. 40 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: And it was it was it was great, a dog, 41 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 3: a cat, The sun was shining growing up. Born in 42 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four, so you know, the world was my 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 3: oyster until I was about until I was about ten 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: years old, and when my dad died very suddenly of 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 3: a heart attack, and then everything changed everything. 46 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: Well my thought suddenly passed of a heart attack when 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: I was five. So we've got a lot more in 48 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 2: common than I thought we ever had. Take me back 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: to that. 50 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 3: Moment, yeah, yeah, because my memor of my dad these 51 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: days are quite impressionistic, and they're probably and they're probably 52 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 3: affected by you know what I what I like to 53 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 3: believe as well. But he was a very, very loving dad. 54 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,679 Speaker 3: And I remember he came home from work one day 55 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 3: and he was a big He was a big fella. 56 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: Like when he was young, he was like a whippet. 57 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 3: But then as he got older and he was enjoying 58 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: a nineteen eighties diet of fried food, he yeah, he 59 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 3: got a big, big boy. He became a big fellow. 60 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: I was always thinking he looked like the dad from 61 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: the Wonder Years, you know, that was sort of that 62 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: kind of big Fred Flintstone looking like. Yeah, and he was. 63 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 3: He came home one day and he had had a 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: minor heart attack once before, which I hadn't remembered, but 65 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: he came home with a bit of Angina Payne, and 66 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: Mum said, yeah, look, get up to the local doctor 67 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 3: a guy, and she went to the GP. He went 68 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: to the GP and dropped dead in his in his 69 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: in his offices in the in front of the doctor. 70 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 3: Uh and and and we got a call that he 71 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 3: was on his way to hospital. Well that was what 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: I was told. And I don't know if Mum knew 73 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: before we got there or not, but but we got 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 3: to the hospital and I remember being a little fella 75 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: with my brother and a doctor coming out and saying 76 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, uh and yeah. I I sort of had 77 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: a really really bad vibe on hospitals for quite some 78 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: time after that. 79 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 80 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, It's like, yeah, I didn't want to go back 81 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 3: because that's where bad news is delivered, right, So that 82 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: was it was. It changed everything from there. It was 83 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 3: an absolute shock. It was a heartbreak, and my mum 84 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 3: loved him very very much. She never remarried, never met 85 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: any again. And it was tough because we were both ten, 86 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 3: my brother's eleven. We started to go into the teen 87 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: years whilst we were handling the grief. So my poor 88 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: mum was single, the widow with two boys. You know, 89 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 3: becoming teenagers, you know, no job, no job to speak of, 90 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 3: because she worked for my father. He was he was 91 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 3: the insurance broken, she was his bookkeeper. So so the 92 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: family business went up in smoke when he went. And 93 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: so it was a big struggle, massive struggle financially, the stress, 94 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 3: the heartbreak, and we started acting out like young young 95 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 3: boys do in different in different ways. 96 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: And how did that change your relationship with your brotherly 97 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: and also with your with your mom? Did it fortify 98 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: it or was there there was a lot of confusion, 99 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 2: a lot of anger. How did how did that work? 100 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 2: Moving long from your father's passing? 101 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, look, I mean it was my brother to 102 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 3: start with that. My brother and I we we were 103 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 3: like typical sort of you know, nine to eleven year 104 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 3: old brothers. We used to fight a lot, and you wrestle, 105 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: tease each other, that sort of thing. As we got bigger, especially. 106 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 4: Like the the the the the anguish, the anxiety of it, 107 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 4: all that, the heartbreak, all that stuff kind of made 108 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 4: us clash more. 109 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 3: And I think we made us compete for my mother's attention. Perhaps, uh. 110 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 3: And I would use words. I've always used words, and 111 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 3: I would use them. I could use them for make people, 112 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: to make people laugh, I can use them to to 113 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: cause someone pain, and I would. I would do that 114 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 3: to my brother. I would say things. He was a redhead, 115 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 3: so that was a target, you know in Australia. Wordsmith, 116 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 3: were you well, I'm not sure if it was Shakespeare 117 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: I was delivering, but it was certainly. It got a reaction. 118 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: And he he wasn't using words. He would just come 119 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 3: at me big time, fists flying, so and I didn't 120 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 3: want to fight back physically. I didn't actually want to 121 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 3: punch my brother in the face. There was something that 122 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: made me not want to do it, and so I 123 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: would start him off. I would set him off, and 124 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 3: then I'd be dealing with the arms flying at me. 125 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, and and for the years I reckon. 126 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 3: It was about ten years ago when I realized my 127 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: brother wasn't a violent psychotic. I was just constantly goading 128 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 3: him and causing him to react. And I'm like, I 129 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: just should have not done that. It would have been 130 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: a lot easier. 131 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: And did that happened with your mom where you argue 132 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: with your mom or was it more just it just 133 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: fortified you? 134 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: Well, with Mama was tough. It was really tough because 135 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: she she she was so hot, and I remember being 136 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: ten or eleven, probably about eleven at the time, and 137 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: it took her, I think a year or so to 138 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: not cry every night, And that was so hard to watch. 139 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: How do you deal with that, Simon, because I can't 140 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: imagine seeing my mother at the age of ten, because 141 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: my mother was you know, she was my protector. She 142 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 2: was there, she shielded everything from us. And to see, 143 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: you know, to see your mother cry, to see my 144 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: mother cry would have apps at once, would have absolutely 145 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 2: broken my heart. I think I saw her quite cry once, 146 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: but for every single night that must have been. Did 147 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: you see your mom in a different light? Did you 148 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: did you feel like that you needed to step up 149 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: at such a young age. 150 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can tell you I did not have the 151 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 3: equipment to handle it. I can tell you that much. 152 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 3: I remember I could hear her from the other end 153 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 3: of the house. My room was at one end of 154 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: the house. She was the main bedroom was at the 155 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: other end, and I would I could hear her, I 156 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: could hear her wailing. And my brother never left his room, 157 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 3: and I don't I don't hold that against him. I 158 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: think he was just like I don't know what to do. 159 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 3: I don't want to. I can't come and face this, 160 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: and I get that. I would kind of make my 161 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 3: way down the hall little Simon, and I'd stand at 162 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 3: the door to her bedroom and she'd be on the 163 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: bed just just wailing. And I was like, you know, 164 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: maybe sometimes i'd sit there and pat her on the leg, 165 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 3: but but but but then I it would keep going 166 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: and I'm like, I can't. I can't fix this. I 167 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: can't fix this. And so I'd go back to bed 168 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 3: and try and sleep and every night, and I mean, 169 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 3: I feel so bad for her because you know she 170 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 3: doctors back then. Would you pass out? You know, mother's 171 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: little helpers like no one's business. So I think, in hindsight, 172 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: I think she probably end up, you know, you know, 173 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 3: hooked on you know, mogadon or whatever. Plus she'd be 174 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 3: drinking wine, so that was that was all she had 175 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 3: to use to cope. 176 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: That was her coper mechanism. Yeah it was. 177 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 3: But she still but she still got up every day, 178 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 3: still kind of helped us, made our lunches, saw us 179 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 3: off to school every single day, and the days were different, 180 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 3: and she'd go and volunteer at the school tuch shop canteen, 181 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: she'd do all that stuff, and eventually the crying at 182 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 3: night was less and less, and eventually, you know, that subsided, 183 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 3: that pain subsided. It took a while, but it did. 184 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 3: And and talk about resilience, she was. I think she 185 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: was the master class in resilience, because resilience doesn't mean 186 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: that you don't fall in a heap. To me, it 187 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 3: means you get up. It means you get up. A 188 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 3: lot of people lose someone they love, it happens, but 189 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: a lot of people hit them harder, hits them in 190 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: different ways. But that's why I say master class. I 191 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 3: think she set the ball rolling. She taught me by 192 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: example that that it's possible, that that you that you 193 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: can be right down there and you can get back 194 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: up there. It's absolutely as possible. And I almost feel 195 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 3: sorry for people, and this to sound weird who've had 196 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 3: a perfect childhood, perfect teenage life, because I think, God, 197 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 3: when something happens, I hope you I hope you've got what. Yeah, 198 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 3: I really hope you can you can take it. 199 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: So Simon, going back to you, though I know you 200 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: mentioned your mother, you know you've lost your father, you're 201 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: seeing your mother in this state, How did you cope 202 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: through your manage through the situation. 203 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: Was your mother? 204 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: Was your mother a distraction? Or did you just not 205 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: have time to think? Couldn't you understand it? You just 206 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: went along with with whatever was presented in front of you. 207 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely made it up as I went. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 208 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 3: I think there were time and I felt pretty low. 209 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: I remember being a little guy feeling really low. And 210 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: it's the only time I've ever had, I think, really 211 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: dark thoughts. I think I was about maybe I was 212 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: about eleven or twelve, I can't remember, before I hit 213 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: high school, actually, which is pretty scary and sad, thinking 214 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 3: I don't this is so, this is so awful. I 215 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 3: don't think I want to be around for it. And 216 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 3: that was that was about as close as it went. 217 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: And then I thought, you know what she is going 218 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: through so much, you know, right now, imagine making it worse, 219 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 3: I mean, and so that so the thought might have 220 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 3: only been there for a second or two through the 221 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 3: whole time, but the fact that actually came into my 222 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: head and came out of it is extremely memorable for me. 223 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 3: The fact that I happened. It's the only time in 224 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: my life that ever happened. But it was so fleeting 225 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 3: because I was like, well, you know what happens. You know, 226 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: when someone dies, this is what happens. You hurt, people 227 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 3: get hurt. So let's put that out of the out 228 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: of the equation. It's not really you know. And I 229 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: hadn't even gone deep into it, but that was and 230 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: I thought, okay, well, I just have to. People would 231 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: tell you be brave for your mum, you know, look 232 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 3: after your mom. Make sure you look after your mom. 233 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 3: That was something people woul say all the time. I'm like, jeez, 234 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: I can't look after my mom. But I ended up 235 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 3: turning to I didn't want people to feel sorry for me. 236 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 3: I didn't want pity and I didn't want people to 237 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 3: treat me differently. So at school as a little fellow, 238 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 3: when people kind of looked at me in a sad way, 239 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: I didn't like it. So I started to use humor. 240 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: I started to joke around. I started to use whatever 241 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 3: tools and I'd make people laugh. And I much preferred 242 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 3: making people laugh then having people look at me with 243 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 3: like that, oh that poor guy. Yeah yeah, So that 244 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 3: kind of became a little addictive for me, and I 245 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: just kept doing the funny. I was obsessed with water 246 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 3: Brothers cartoons and things like that. So I would try 247 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 3: and learn how to do all those impersonations, and I'd 248 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 3: take them to school and people were like, oh, Kennedy's 249 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 3: so funny, and so for me it was a good attention. 250 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 3: It was a better attention, better atten. Yes, yes, it 251 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 3: was a better attention. Like you said, and from what 252 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: you've just said, there's huge compassion and empathy there. Have 253 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: you always been a compassionate and empathetic individual? Because you 254 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: said something really just stuck out to me. Then when 255 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 3: you said, you know, how could I make it? I 256 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: didn't want to make it worse for my mum, even 257 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: though you were going through what you were going through. 258 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: You know, how can I make things better? 259 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: That takes a huge amount of compassion and empathy to 260 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: realize that. Do you think that you got that through 261 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: that situation. 262 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 3: I'm not always compassionate and empathetic. I think I know 263 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: what not to do well. I have a moments, and 264 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: I think the older I get, the more empathy I 265 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 3: have for people I don't know as well, the more 266 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: the more of a broad sort of spectrum I see 267 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 3: that you don't know what someone's going through. But that said, 268 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: I stuff up a lot, and I you know, my 269 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: beautiful wife will tell you that there are times where 270 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: something will be going on with her and I'll and 271 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 3: I'll be as stupid as any other husband, and I 272 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 3: will not say the right thing when I'll not do 273 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 3: the right thing. And I'm like, you know what, Yeah, 274 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 3: I don't know where my head was at for that one. 275 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 3: So I'm not perfect, but I'm but I'm always trying 276 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 3: to improve, Like I'm always always retrospective, look back and go, yeah, 277 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: I could have done better there, I could have done better, 278 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 3: you know. And I think that's the best you can 279 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 3: do to be a good person, is to admit when 280 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: you haven't been a good person. I just own that shit. 281 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: You received a phone call back in two thousand and 282 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 2: one from your brother Lee, and that changed everything. Tell 283 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: me about that call. 284 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So two thousand and one, So I had 285 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 3: I was living with my girlfriend who is now my wife. 286 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: I'd gone to bed. It was late and it was 287 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 3: tennish at night, and I I think I'd had a 288 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 3: few drinks, so I hit the hay. Then my phone 289 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 3: rang and my wife she said, answer your phone. I went, 290 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: I don't want to go to I'm and go to sleep. 291 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: She goes, it's your brother calling. Don't worry about it. 292 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 3: And he was calling from London. He lived in London. 293 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 3: He didn't ring very often. It was very rare. Maybe 294 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: on my birthday that'd be it. But I didn't want 295 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: to answer the phone. But my wife made me. She 296 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 3: made me answer. She's come on. I picked up the 297 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: phone and I was pretty drowsy, and he said, hey, there, 298 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 3: have you been watching the news. I went, no, No, 299 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 3: I've gone to bed. He goes, some stuff going on 300 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 3: in America. There's some planes have hit some buildings, and 301 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: I'm just a bit worried about mum because she's on 302 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: holidays over there. Mum had gone on a bit of 303 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 3: a retirement trip through the US and Canada and all 304 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 3: that sort of thing, so she was over there. I'm 305 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 3: always a bit like, oh, God, like seriously, like, what 306 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: are the odds in a country of three hundred million 307 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: people and you expect that our mum's caught up in 308 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 3: something like that? 309 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: But anyway, is that what went through your head? What 310 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: are the odds? And you're just like. 311 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, like I mean, honestly, I mean, logically speaking, I'm like, 312 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 3: come on, I'm like, really, I want to go to 313 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 3: sleep here, but my wife said, oh, come on, let's 314 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 3: this is serious. I said, yeah, Well, i'd seen my 315 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 3: mum a few weeks before the day before she left, 316 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 3: and she handed me her itinerary, which she would always do. 317 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 3: She was very prepared, worst case scenario. She was on 318 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 3: top of it all. She had all that going on. 319 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 3: So she gave me her itinerary and it was weird. 320 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: It was weird because she always she had a dark 321 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 3: sense of humor herself. I said, she gave it to me, 322 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: and she said, oh, what do I do? I don't 323 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 3: need this. She said, oh, no, y, it's just in 324 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 3: case the terrorists kept me or something. And that was 325 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 3: the kind of dark humor she had. I went to 326 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 3: the itinerary, I checked out where mum was supposed to be. 327 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 3: A particular time, I told my brother, I said, looks 328 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 3: like she's leaving Washington on American Airlines flight seventy seven. 329 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 3: I remember the silence and the moment is there. He said, 330 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: I think that's one of them. And and then I 331 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 3: just went and turned on the tea and we had 332 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 3: a look at what was going on, and yeah, they 333 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: started reporting on flight seventy seven having hit the Pentagon, 334 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: and that started the rest of my life. And it 335 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 3: was it was a long It was a long. 336 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: Night because you haven't got confirmation. Is there still something 337 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: in your head saying that you know. 338 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 3: It can't be this? 339 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: What are the odds? 340 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was looking for the angles, you know, That's 341 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 3: how I go. So I'm looking for all the possibilities there, 342 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 3: and I'm like, well, okay, well, let's call the hotel 343 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: she was staying at and see if she's checked out 344 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 3: of the air Just make sure of that, because you 345 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 3: couldn't get through the airline. It was almost impossible. It 346 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 3: was as you can imagine, everyone ringing them. So we 347 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: did that and they said, oh no, her tour group's 348 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 3: still here, and we're like, sweet, this is great, you know, 349 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 3: and then we find out later that, you know, we 350 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 3: look at the itinery in detail, it says that she 351 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 3: actually splits off from the tour group at that point, 352 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 3: and we're like, okay, all right, what do we do. 353 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 3: We keep trying the airline. We even call Quantas because 354 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 3: it was a Quantus code share, and we get Quantus 355 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 3: to help us try and Quantus to try and help 356 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 3: us find information and they were great. They were great 357 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 3: about it, and so I think it was a good 358 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 3: I think it was a good twelve hours. I didn't 359 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 3: sleep obviously overnight, so we were talking to America and 360 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 3: I think the best information that we got was somewhere 361 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: maybe within twenty four hours, that they had issued a 362 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 3: boarding pass for I think that was we got that. 363 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: That was all we got within sort of about about 364 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 3: a day. That was the most information that we had. 365 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: And at this time, you've got this, I suppose you've 366 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: got the TV on NonStop, your mind's going ten to that. 367 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 2: Does in you constantly back and forth on the phone 368 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,479 Speaker 2: to your brother? Is he doing the same his end? 369 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was trying. And we basically within within that 370 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 3: first twenty four hours, lady from from Quantus, Michelle, who 371 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 3: were kind of mates with now, she actually got him 372 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: on a flight back to Sydney. So she she organized 373 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 3: that so that we could be together and we could 374 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: work it out together. My brother and I both we're 375 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 3: smart fellas, and we both knew logically we got to 376 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: a point where we were you know what logically we know? 377 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's pretty clear. The numbers tell us 378 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: she's gone, and I think that we kind of decided 379 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 3: pretty early on that we weren't going to play that game. 380 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 3: We weren't going to be you know when you see 381 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 3: people on the news and you know, the missing kid 382 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 3: or the missing wife for the and and you see 383 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 3: them years later going. We wondered, we just want to 384 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 3: make sure. I'm like, oh, man, you know, come on, 385 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 3: it's over. I didn't want to be that. I didn't 386 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: want that. 387 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 2: So when did that penny drop? 388 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 3: To be honest, it happened. I knew within a day. 389 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: I decided. It might have even been twelve hours. It 390 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 3: might have been less. I think I knew. I knew, 391 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 3: but but there's always there is always something in the 392 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 3: back of your head. There's always a little thing. But 393 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 3: I was not going to let that sort of rule 394 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 3: me because I didn't want to be that guy where 395 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 3: they have to slap him across the face and so 396 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 3: for God's sake, man, she's gone, you know, like in 397 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 3: the movies. But so, yeah, so I decided. But it 398 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 3: was I was like a week later that I got 399 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 3: anything that resembled confirmation really, and that was that was 400 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 3: very coerce, the way that was a very subversive way. 401 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,719 Speaker 3: I had a mate who had once worked with the 402 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 3: Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and he still had 403 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 3: connections there, and he talked to his connection, who spoke 404 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 3: to someone's connection and and they said, look, he just 405 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 3: needs to know. And I got this phone call. I've 406 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 3: got a phone call like a week later from some 407 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 3: unnamed person. Yeah, but it was unofficial as hell, with 408 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 3: some unnamed person who said, Hi, I can't tell you 409 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: who I am, but I'm with Foreign Affairs and I 410 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 3: believe you are looking for some confirmation. And we're like yeah, 411 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: and they said, look, well, I can't give you anything 412 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 3: official because that's not this is not meant to happen. 413 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: He said, But but I just want you to know 414 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 3: that whatever you think has happened has happened. And that's 415 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 3: that's as good as I can give you. And that 416 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 3: was enough anyway. I went, Yeah, that's what I thought. 417 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: So that was that, and we, my brother and I 418 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: just decided that we were going to have a memorial 419 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 3: service for my mum pretty soon after that. We weren't 420 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 3: going to drag it out, and we were going to 421 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 3: We're going to we're going to mourn her, because I mean, 422 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 3: in our family, when people die, the funerals within a week. 423 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 2: What's going through your head, Simon? You know, I know 424 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: you're talking about getting memorial just to remember, but the 425 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 2: build up in your head, what what? What does it 426 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: look like? 427 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 3: It was pretty It was pretty scary, and we were 428 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: we were actually really focused on on trying to have 429 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 3: some privacy because the media attention started to get pretty heated. 430 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 3: People wanted they wanted a story, local media wanted an 431 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: angle on it. They wanted a story, they wanted a local, 432 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 3: local version of their story. And because look, one of 433 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 3: my very best mates is Dave Spears, who works at ABC, 434 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 3: is a political journalist at the ab SEE. He's fantastic. 435 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: We've been friends for a long long time and he 436 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: was working at Sky News back the time. And when 437 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 3: we decided that okay, we we accept that mum's gone 438 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 3: and this is how she's gone. We wrote a statement 439 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 3: from the family and I gave it to Dave. I said, 440 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 3: you can put this out there and if anyone comes asking, 441 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 3: tell them that we don't want to talk to anybody, 442 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: and this is all they're going to get. This is it. 443 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 3: That's the statement. That's that Because we wanted to grieve privately, 444 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 3: because I think it would have been I would have madged, 445 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 3: grieving very hard. I think having to do all that, 446 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: all that media stuff, I think it would have been 447 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 3: not I mean, I'm used to I was used to media, 448 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 3: or I'd been working in media, but I knew I 449 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 3: think because of that, I knew and I knew that 450 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 3: my family didn't need that. So we did that. But 451 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 3: I thought that was a good plan. But I think 452 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 3: I just drew focus to us. And then we had 453 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 3: journalists who kind of stalk stalked us out the front 454 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 3: of our house and made sort of I won't say threats, 455 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: but indicated that if we didn't talk to him that, 456 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 3: you know, other people might find out where we live 457 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 3: and whatever. 458 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 2: It was. 459 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 3: It was pretty pretty shitty stuff. 460 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: Yes, brutal, Yes, brutal. 461 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: Was as like you said, of I mean, now I 462 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: think I understand what celebrities with paparazzi feel like, you know, 463 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 3: it's like that's just horrible. So yeah, so there was 464 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 3: a bit of that, But so we were we were 465 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 3: kind of hiding as well. That's what we were doing. 466 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 3: We were hiding it in the house from the public, 467 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 3: trying to grieve, trying to work it all out. It 468 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: was a whirlwind of a time. And and was I 469 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 3: angry about the terrorists at that point, No, because I 470 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 3: just had too much of a plate to even think 471 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 3: about who had done it. 472 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: Revenge, anger, aggression, you know, did that ever wear itself 473 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 2: or was that just flushed in the background because you 474 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: had so much going on. 475 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: I think, I honestly think that the who did it, 476 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 3: the actual who did it, was always pushed aside by 477 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 3: everything that was right in front of me, like all 478 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 3: of the challenges that I was dealing with on a 479 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 3: day to day basis, just trying to have a normal life, 480 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,239 Speaker 3: the whole media staff trying to avoid that, and then 481 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 3: all the other stuff I started to see in the news, 482 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: which was, you know, the Islamophobia that came out. And 483 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 3: before I got a chance to even decide if I 484 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 3: was angry at bin Laden and his crew, I felt 485 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 3: that I felt very defensive for Muslim Australians and anyone 486 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 3: of Middle Eastern appearance, because I could see that everyone's 487 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 3: turning their anger towards them. 488 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: There's that compassion and empathy right there. 489 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: So maybe it comes out, maybe it's a bit of it. 490 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 3: It really worried me. It bothered me so much to 491 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 3: the point that I felt I had to say, you 492 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 3: know what, one swallow doesn't make a summer. This was 493 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: an isolated group of people. These are just Australians like 494 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 3: you and I, I mean, And that played out year 495 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 3: on year and year on year, and I remember when 496 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 3: the Cronulla riots happened. I'm like, this is not this 497 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 3: is not what my mother would have wanted. So it 498 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 3: got to the point where I just didn't have any 499 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 3: room to hate the people who did it, because I 500 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: felt I was so busy trying to be a better 501 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 3: person than all the other people that I was seeing 502 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 3: out there who were being absolute bigots and pieces of shit. 503 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 3: I'm like, you know what, I'm like, if I can 504 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 3: have compassion for these people, why the hell can't you? 505 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: And and it became a thing that distracted me and 506 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 3: I never and I never really thought much about the 507 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 3: guys who did it. 508 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 2: Were you never curious to sort of in a positive way, 509 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: because that's the way you tackle things to really, you know, 510 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: find out and go deeper into into this situation because 511 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: it wasn't just the death of your mother. This carried 512 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: on into a twenty year conflict in Afghanistan, and you 513 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 2: know something like I said, it doesn't matter how much 514 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: you got about your business, and that's going to come 515 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 2: up and catch your foot one day and drag you in. 516 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: Did that ever happen? 517 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, I mean you're right, it's a year on 518 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 3: year everything for me felt like, well that that came, 519 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 3: that come, that came from nine to eleven. The way 520 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 3: we're doing this, that comes from nine to eleven. Everything, 521 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 3: by the way, but the way we travel everything, But 522 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 3: you know, the personal security laws that we live under, 523 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 3: the privacy laws that we live under. Everything right now, 524 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: I mean right now, Like I'm I'm president of an 525 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 3: association of voice actors who are trying to put in 526 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 3: some sort of fight against AI Generative AI stealing our 527 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: jobs and one of them. And we don't have because 528 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 3: we don't have, you know, personal copyright over our image 529 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 3: or our voice. And a lot of that is because 530 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 3: of our privacy laws that are post nine to eleven. 531 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 3: So ironically I'm trying to deal with unraveling something that 532 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: came from Nune eleven. It's everything joins up in a way. 533 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 3: It's kind of it's a knock on effect. The war 534 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: in Iraq was something that that used to get me angry. 535 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 3: They used to make me angry that that was happening, well, 536 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 3: that was happening that they were trying to justify going 537 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 3: into Iraq for my mum or for our families. And 538 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 3: we're like and I'm like, I can see that that's bs. 539 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: Don't say it. Don't say it's for me, you know, 540 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: so I just get really fiery about that. Like you know, 541 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 3: I was in two thousand and two. I was at 542 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: the Pentagon for a memorial, the one Year Memorial, and 543 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 3: I was introduced to Donald Rumsfeld and I was like, oh, 544 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: you and George W. Bush had basically announced at that 545 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 3: point that you know, they're going to go We're going 546 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 3: to go get these guys. And then they went into 547 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 3: a rack shortly after, and I'm like, you just used 548 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 3: us as a oh and that made me more Oh, 549 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: it made me more angry than anything. And all these innocent, 550 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 3: you know, men and women who went in to fight 551 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 3: for something that they shouldn't have been fighting for and died. 552 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 3: I'm like, this is just unbelievable. When I got that 553 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 3: made me angry. That actually got me angry that that 554 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 3: it was you used as well. But I a few 555 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 3: years ago took the opportunity from the Department of Defense. 556 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 3: They often reach out to families a lot, the ones 557 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 3: who are prosecuting the five nine to eleven co conspirators 558 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: in Guantanamo Bay. So Khalid Shaik Mohammad, and he's four 559 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: cronies there. They they've been on they've been there since 560 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 3: more twenty odd years. Yeah. 561 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: I was going to say, there in Guano Bay right now. 562 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the and the trial is still ongoing. And 563 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 3: I went there a few years ago. I was invited 564 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 3: and I said, yeah, I'll go, I'll go. 565 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: You went to Guantanamo Bay. 566 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 3: I did, yeah, wow. And firstly I think it was curiosity. 567 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 3: I said, I said no a few times because I'm like, 568 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 3: I'm not equipped for this. And then at one point 569 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: I went, you know what what year was this that 570 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 3: So this was twenty eighteen or nineteen, I think, pre 571 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 3: COVID And yeah, and I went there, and there's only 572 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 3: ten Australians who were killed in the nine to eleven attacks. 573 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 3: So the community here is it's not much of a community. 574 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 3: It's you know, I've met a few of the families, 575 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: but I didn't really have anything to do with them much. 576 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't a lot of support network as such. 577 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 3: And I went over there and I spent a week 578 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 3: with six other family members, all Americans who had lost 579 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 3: a mother or a brother or a dad, and it 580 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 3: was it was awesome. It was awesome, And I did 581 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 3: not expect that to be the case. Well, because they 582 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 3: were like me, and they had they could relate to me. 583 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 3: Even though they were American. They were like me, and 584 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 3: they knew what it was like to to carry that 585 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 3: event on their shoulders in conjunction with the loss of 586 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 3: the person they loved. And we would sit there and 587 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 3: we'd talk, and we'd joke with each other. I'd make 588 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 3: jokes with them that I couldn't make with anybody. Yeah, 589 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 3: of course, or if I made a joke like that 590 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 3: with somebody here, they'd be like, oh my god, he's 591 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 3: not right. And it was humor. Yeah, yeah, And so 592 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 3: we yeah, we would all relate to the various aspects 593 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 3: of being you know, a nine to eleven orphan or 594 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 3: whatever you we do want to call it. And so 595 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 3: a few of those people now I'm very close with, 596 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 3: and I've seen them since I've gone back to the US, 597 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 3: and and you know, one of them, their daughter came 598 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 3: and stayed with us here, and it was it's like 599 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 3: my nine to eleven family, my Gitmo family actually, but yeah, 600 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 3: So I went there and I sat up the back 601 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 3: of the courtroom with these other family members, looking through 602 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 3: the glass at five men who basically were architects of 603 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 3: the death of my mother and around three almost three 604 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 3: thousand other people. And I looked, I stood. I looked 605 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 3: through the glass at at KSM called colleage shake Mhammed, 606 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 3: and I felt I felt nothing. I felt nothing, And 607 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 3: I was surprised, and I thought to myself, should I 608 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 3: is something wrong with me? Or And Donna, who was 609 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 3: my friend from from Long Island there she and she 610 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 3: she was seething. I saw her looking at him and 611 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 3: she was seething. She was angry, but I wasn't. And 612 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 3: I love my mom and I miss it crazy, But 613 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 3: I thought, why am I not angry? And I think 614 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 3: it's because I I thought I thought of it in 615 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 3: the sense that it wasn't really so much a person 616 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: who did it or just people who did it. I 617 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 3: think it was it was it was an idea and 618 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 3: an ideology that that that killed my mother, and these 619 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 3: people were puppets of that. And and I and I 620 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 3: somehow felt a bit sad for them, but I didn't 621 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 3: feel hatred for them. And I people say, do you 622 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 3: forgive them? And I'm like, well, I'm not sure if 623 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 3: you can forgive someone. If they if that if I 624 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 3: don't take responsibility, or or they're not sorry, that makes 625 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 3: it hard. But but but but what I did was 626 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 3: I decided somewhere along the line, and I can't tell 627 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 3: you when that I wasn't going to carry hatred for 628 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 3: these people, and and and some of that. Some people 629 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 3: won't say that's very big of you, but I think 630 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 3: it's also very selfish of me, because I think that 631 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 3: it's a great quote and I love I don't know 632 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 3: who said it. Carrying hatred for somebody else is like 633 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 3: you swallowing poison and expecting them to die. It doesn't 634 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 3: affect them, it only affects you. So selfishly, I decided, well, 635 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 3: I'm not going to have my life consumed by hate 636 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 3: because that's just going to get in the way of 637 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: my happiness and my contentment and the relationships that I 638 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 3: need to keep building moving forward. And one of the 639 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 3: other ones that I always bank on is the only 640 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 3: thing required for evil to prevail is for good men 641 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 3: to do nothing nothing. Yeah, And I feel like I'm 642 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 3: not going to be one of the bad guys. I'm 643 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 3: not going to stop by while someone you know, slings 644 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 3: arrows at a Muslim fellow who's done nothing. I'm going 645 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 3: to say, hey, he's leaving, leave him alone. And I've 646 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 3: made some I've actually made. I've got more Muslim friends 647 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 3: now than I didn't have three two thousand and one. 648 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 2: And you're on the subject of your mum, And it's 649 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 2: a very tough question and one that I'm probably a 650 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 2: bit insensitive to ask, but I'm going to ask to 651 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 2: do it. What do you think your mom would have 652 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 2: been doing in those final moments that she was on 653 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 2: the plane. And again, I know it's a super tough question, 654 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: but you knowing your mom better than anyone else, the 655 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 2: lady that she was in those final moments of her life, 656 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: what do you think that she would have been would 657 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 2: have been doing and how do you think she would 658 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 2: have acted? 659 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 3: Well, my mom gave up a good thirty odd years 660 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 3: of her life to the Australian Red Cross. She was 661 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 3: the first aid instructor and she was worked with the 662 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 3: voluntary a emergency response groups and when when there was 663 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 3: a Granville trained disaster in in Sydney back in the seventies, 664 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 3: she was there helping people, getting people out and doing 665 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 3: first aid on them. When there were floods, and in 666 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 3: Sydney she was out there with the sees helping. When 667 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 3: threadbow landslide happened. Apparently she was there as well. And 668 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 3: I know my mum and she would have probably been 669 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 3: holding someone's hand and telling them it's going to be okay. 670 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 3: She would have been, she would have she would have 671 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 3: been making someone feel good or better about the situation. 672 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 3: And a girl reached out to me on Facebook and 673 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 3: her mum was on the plane and found out that 674 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 3: her mum was actually sitting next to my mum on 675 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 3: the plane. So and I told her this. I said 676 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 3: that they probably would have been holding it and sort 677 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 3: of the way all the way down, and that's what 678 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 3: I reckon she was doing. 679 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 2: That is phenomenal. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to 680 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 2: you mate. Thank you ever so much for coming on 681 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 2: head game again the epitome of resilience, but in such 682 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: a positive way. It has been an inspirational Thank you. 683 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 3: Mate, and thank you so much for having me. 684 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 2: Matte Simon Kennedy is the author of nine eleven and 685 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 2: the Art of Happiness, an Australian story. I'll lead the 686 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 2: details in the show notes. Thanks so much for joining 687 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 2: me on Headgame. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure 688 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 2: you're subscribed so you don't miss any of our incredible stories, 689 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 2: and leave me a review wherever you're listening. I'm Att Middleton. 690 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:57,919 Speaker 2: Catch you again next time.