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Speaker 1: I've spoken with Frank Pangelo about this issue before, and

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Speaker 1: that is the operation of gender clinics here in South Australia.

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Speaker 1: We do have one at the Women's and Children's Hospital,

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Speaker 1: the Gender Diversity Team, and Frank has obtained figures showing

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Speaker 1: that three children aged between three and five was seen

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Speaker 1: by the Gender Diversity Team between March twenty twenty two

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Speaker 1: and March twenty twenty four. During the same period, another

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Speaker 1: eighty five children aged six and ten was seen by

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Speaker 1: the same clinic over that period. Now, I would argue

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Speaker 1: that's probably too young for children to know where they

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Speaker 1: sit in the scale of being male or female. If

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Speaker 1: any have any such concerns, I want to introduce you

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Speaker 1: to Chloe Cole, who's in Australia for a series of

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Speaker 1: meetings and forums, including one being held in Parliament House

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Speaker 1: today here in South Australia talking about gender affirming practices

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Speaker 1: and Chloe's against it because transitioning from being a girl,

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Speaker 1: from being female into male and subsequently realized after a

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Speaker 1: period of time, it was the worst decision. Shade night,

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Speaker 1: Let's mate it. Chloe, good morning, Thank you for having

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Speaker 1: me tell me your story.

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Speaker 2: So I am what many call ad Trenschner, and in

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Speaker 2: my case, I am a formerly transitifine seene and I

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Speaker 2: went through the process of going through a social and

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Speaker 2: medical gender trension while I was still a child. Actually

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Speaker 2: I was twelve, and I started calling myself a boys

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Speaker 2: is after years of going through a somewhat early onset puberty,

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Speaker 2: having body image issues that came with that, and just

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Speaker 2: being an awkward, tomboyish girl and trying to find my

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Speaker 2: identity in the world. And this I thought seemed to

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Speaker 2: be the answer for me and for my personal struggle

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Speaker 2: to my identity. I was fast trapped into the medical

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Speaker 2: process at thirteen, starting with drugs who completely suppressed my puberty.

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Speaker 2: I was put on a soft throne as well at

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Speaker 2: the same age a weekly dose of male hormones, and

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Speaker 2: at fifteen years old, I underwent surgery to completely remove

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Speaker 2: my breast and I stopped functioning at sixteen, after I

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Speaker 2: started to mature a little bit and realized that I

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Speaker 2: wanted to become a mother, I wanted to become a wife,

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Speaker 2: and that I was okay with being a maculine woman.

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Speaker 2: And I realized that none of these, none of these

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Speaker 2: treatments would ever actually turn into a man. They would

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Speaker 2: just take away function more and more for my body

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Speaker 2: over the years.

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Speaker 1: Why did you change your mind? When? When did that

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Speaker 1: realization coming You saw at sixteen and and you realize,

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Speaker 1: you know, you grow up. I suppose is that basically it.

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Speaker 2: The surgery was really a big turning point, and the

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Speaker 2: regret was almost immediate. Just within a few months after

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Speaker 2: was when I started to realize just what I was

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Speaker 2: losing to this. And a big part of what made

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Speaker 2: me question my decisions to transion was at sixteen, taking

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Speaker 2: a class in high school that taught me a little

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Speaker 2: bit more about like family dynamics and family and child

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Speaker 2: psychology and things like motherhood. And it was the first

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Speaker 2: time that even though I was being allowed by my

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Speaker 2: doctors to make decisions that would affect my sexual reproductive

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Speaker 2: developments and my family life later in my adulthood, I

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Speaker 2: had never really known anything about because I was still

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Speaker 2: a child. And it was that epiphany that made me

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Speaker 2: realize that I couldn't go any further, that I had

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Speaker 2: to stop.

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Speaker 1: Is any of it reversible?

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Speaker 2: Not a single part of my trench and has been reversal,

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Speaker 2: Not the puberty blockers, not the disosterone and certainly not

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Speaker 2: the surgery, of course, and even the act of socially trensching.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was being socialized throughout a lot of

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Speaker 2: my formative years as a boy, and I feel like

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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, socially and emotionally, I'm behind

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Speaker 2: a lot of women in my age. And the puberty

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Speaker 2: blockers while I was on them, basically put me to

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Speaker 2: an artificial state of menopause. So at thirteen years old,

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Speaker 2: I was experiencing hot flashes, I was very lethargic, and

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Speaker 2: there the disosterone has left as permanent effects of my body,

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Speaker 2: on my bone structure, on my face, and my body.

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Speaker 2: I have irregular mensies. I don't know if I'm going

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Speaker 2: to be able to conceive and safely care to termins.

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Speaker 2: I have iron ay tract issues, and for a while

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Speaker 2: I was actually getting blood cloths and bits of tissue

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Speaker 2: in my urine while I was honest, I'm an adult

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Speaker 2: woman now, but I'm having when I was perfectly healthy

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Speaker 2: while I was developing, I now whereas I was perfectly

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Speaker 2: healthy while I was as I was going to puberty

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Speaker 2: and before all this medicalization, I now have issues with

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Speaker 2: my sexual function and obviously with the loss of my breast.

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Speaker 2: I've lost the major part of my sexuality now as

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Speaker 2: an adult woman, and I'm never going to be able

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Speaker 2: to have even the option of nursing or nourishing my

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Speaker 2: children naturally.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask the role of your parents in this?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I assume you made these decisions as a child.

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Speaker 1: Did they try and talk you out of it?

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Speaker 2: My mom and dad actually were very conflicted because they

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Speaker 2: didn't want me to be making any permanent decisions, especially

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Speaker 2: once governing my body or the developments of it. I

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Speaker 2: was still going to puberty at this time or I

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Speaker 2: would have otherwise, and they wanted to just allow me

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Speaker 2: to grow too mature before making any any decisions like this. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but they're.

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Speaker 3: The doctors.

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Speaker 2: The psychologists tried to create a rift between me and

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Speaker 2: my mom and dad, and they separated us during the

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Speaker 2: therapy appointments first, and when my mom and dad started

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Speaker 2: to push back and ask questions, they were emotionally manipulated

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Speaker 2: in course into allowing this by these doctors being told

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Speaker 2: that this was innate that children understand their gender identity

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Speaker 2: from a very young age, which no child understands who

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Speaker 2: they are, what their identity is, or completely fully understands

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Speaker 2: their even their own body, and for some it takes longer.

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Speaker 2: But they were told that if I were, if I

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Speaker 2: were not allowed to have this treatment at the age

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Speaker 2: I was now to commit suicide. I was not suicidal

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Speaker 2: at all until after I was put on these treatments.

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Speaker 2: But my mom and dad weren't really given much by

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Speaker 2: these doctors who are supposed to help me through these feelings,

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Speaker 2: were supposed to help my mom and dads were raising

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Speaker 2: me through.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel you allied to by doctors?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean every single part of this has been deceptive.

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Speaker 2: It's fraudulent treatment. My mom and dad and I were

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Speaker 2: less in the dark about.

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Speaker 3: A lot of what this.

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Speaker 2: Process actually entails, especially on the medical side of things.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the complications that I'm experiencing now we're

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Speaker 2: either talked about in very vague detail or we're not

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Speaker 2: addressed at all. During the appointment. I wouldn't have been

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had the cognitive capabilities to consent to

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Speaker 2: anything anything like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think the entire.

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Speaker 2: Premise of the treatment? It's false because there is no

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Speaker 2: such thing as a successful transition. There is no such

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Speaker 2: thing as transing. Is the opposite sex, because sex is

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Speaker 2: something that is an im meanable traits the life.

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Speaker 1: Do I think many would disagree with that? What do

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Speaker 1: you think of the practice here in South Australia children

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Speaker 1: as young as three attending the gender clinic at the

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Speaker 1: Women's and Children's Hospital.

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Speaker 2: It's terrisfic that children so young are being put on

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Speaker 2: the pipeline of socially and eventually be transtioning. These always

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Speaker 2: the same outcomes. It all eventually leads to medically transtioning

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Speaker 2: and the damage that comes with that. And no child

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Speaker 2: deserves that. Children, no matter where this is happening in

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Speaker 2: the world, no matter how many children is happening to,

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Speaker 2: whether it be one child, ten children, hundreds or thousands

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Speaker 2: of children, they deserve better. They deserve real compassion. They

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Speaker 2: deserve to be told no by responsible adults and to

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Speaker 2: be guided better help mentally and physically. Children deserve to

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Speaker 2: be allowed to grow up. And if we stop, if

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Speaker 2: we directly impede their development, they cannot become fully healthy,

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Speaker 2: functional adults.

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Speaker 1: I've seen a real on Twitter by a fella called

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Speaker 1: Matt Walsh in the US. You may know him, but

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Speaker 1: he asks in a speech that he gives to an

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Speaker 1: audience on this issue that in years to come, people

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Speaker 1: will be asking people who were children went through this

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Speaker 1: will be asking how could you do this to me?

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Speaker 1: How could you let me and mutilate my body on

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Speaker 1: my behalf after essentially telling me that this is right

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Speaker 1: for me? How could you do this to me? And

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Speaker 1: we were society is raising an army of people who'll

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Speaker 1: be asking this question in years to come.

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Speaker 2: As you are now, yes, I've from the very beginning

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Speaker 2: of m Detranstion, I soon met quite a few other

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Speaker 2: people who have been through these acting processes as me,

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Speaker 2: coming out of transition with de regret, with years with reform,

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Speaker 2: with years out of their their form of development loss,

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Speaker 2: what damage done to their to their bodies and entire

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Speaker 2: organs loss? And since I've started speaking out, there have

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Speaker 2: been many, many more crying out for help.

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Speaker 1: Why do we start so young with children? Why do

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Speaker 1: we do this? Children at three wouldn't know? I mean

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Speaker 1: dress up is dress up. It doesn't mean for boy

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Speaker 1: dresses as a girl or vice versa. It doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: necessarily that's where their brain is at in thirty years

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Speaker 1: from then, at the age of three or even thirteen

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Speaker 1: years from then. It just seems crazy to me that

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Speaker 1: we would look at a child perhaps doing that and saying, well,

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Speaker 1: obviously you're born a boy, but you want to be

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Speaker 1: a girl, and then stop that process because the age

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Speaker 1: of three, it is not the child saying can you

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Speaker 1: take me to a clinic?

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Speaker 2: No, I mean the entire premise of this is based

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Speaker 2: on stereotypes around both sexes. The activists, these activists who

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Speaker 2: push these treatments for youth and children claim that this

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Speaker 2: is something that is revolutionary, something that goes beyond the

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Speaker 2: boundary of gender and breaks those roles, but it's actually

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Speaker 2: reinforcing it by claiming that these effeminate boys and men

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Speaker 2: and that these masculine, tomboyish girls and women are actually

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Speaker 2: of the other sex, when really we should be allowing

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Speaker 2: and encouraging variation an expression between the two sexes. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't csarally mean that a person, it doesn't mean at

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Speaker 2: all actually that a person is of the opposite sex

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Speaker 2: just because they don't completely align with the roles extracted

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Speaker 2: as them. You'd beautiful and to be mbraced.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, You'd welcome the UK government decision to ban

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Speaker 1: puberty blockers for children young people under aideen.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, the full course of treatments, the facilitation of the

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Speaker 2: social transition, not just the blockers, but also of the hormones,

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Speaker 2: the other medications used, and of course the surgeries all

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Speaker 2: need to be banned for use in children on the

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Speaker 2: age of eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Do you expect, Chloe, that more and more people are

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Speaker 1: going to stand up, people who have been through this

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Speaker 1: like you and say, I've just made the worst mistake

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Speaker 1: I could have made. I've completely bugged up my future

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Speaker 1: essentially as the beautiful person I could have been by

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Speaker 1: undertaking this process. And perhaps that if more and more

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Speaker 1: people do, that might lead to a growing awareness that

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Speaker 1: we have jumped too soon down this tunnel of madness.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean I've seen I'm encounter a new d

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Speaker 2: transfer online on almost a weekly and sometimes almost a

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Speaker 2: daily basis. At this point, there are many many more

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Speaker 2: people who regret transitions, who are coming through the floodgates

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Speaker 2: and attempting to heal from the things that have been

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Speaker 2: done to them by the medical system. And unfortunately, it's

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Speaker 2: going to take the stories of people like us, the children,

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Speaker 2: the young men and women, and the famili who have

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Speaker 2: been affected by this in order to make change.

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Speaker 1: How old are you now? I'm nineteen nineteen, okay, and.

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Speaker 2: I started speaking out the age of seventeen. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: it's all very fresh. There's all still something that is

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Speaker 2: very fresh to me.

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Speaker 1: You're still so young in terms of going through life,

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Speaker 1: and there's a heck of a lot in front of you.

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Speaker 1: Yet Chloe, I think it's really good that you're speaking

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Speaker 1: out anyway and getting the message across. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: your time this morning, good luck addressing people in Parliament

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Speaker 1: today and hopefully the message is heard. Thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for your time. Chloe Cole, who is detransitioning

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Speaker 1: after was sure she was in the wrong body and

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Speaker 1: started the process and now, as you heard at nineteen now,

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago started the de transition and

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Speaker 1: worse mistake she ever made, obviously, but trying to get

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Speaker 1: that message across in the ages of three and four

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Speaker 1: and five and ten, even twelve fourteen, it's all too

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Speaker 1: young because we think we know everything, as you and

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Speaker 1: I know, when we were teenagers we knew everything, but

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Speaker 1: you realize as you get older you don't. And so

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Speaker 1: I think there's a very important message in what Chloe

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Speaker 1: has to say she's addressing a forum that's been organized

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Speaker 1: I understand by Frank Pangalo who joins me now per

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Speaker 1: House Independent MP.

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Speaker 3: Frank, good morning, Good morning, Matthew, Good morning to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: She tells a powerful story, Gosh.

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Speaker 3: Extremely powerful and very courageous Chloe, what she has done

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Speaker 3: and what she is doing, and of course she's being

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Speaker 3: vilified for it. And not only are we going to

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Speaker 3: be hearing from Chloe today, but also from a Perth woman,

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Speaker 3: Courtney Coulson, who transitioned at the age of twenty two

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Speaker 3: then de transitioned twenty two years later. We'll also have

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Speaker 3: doctor Andrey Amos, who's a highly credential and respected psychiatrist

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Speaker 3: who's gone to outline his serious concerns about the lack

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Speaker 3: of safeguards and the risks and harms that has been

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Speaker 3: caused to our vulnerable young children. Now, you know, Matthew

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Speaker 3: with a gender clinic in South Australia and it's putting

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Speaker 3: kids on damaging puberty blockers when other countries are banning it,

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Speaker 3: and the Premier and the Health Minister are essentially sanctioning

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Speaker 3: a human medical experiment without proper protocols being implemented. It's

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Speaker 3: shocking that this governm will allow such a practice that

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Speaker 3: has been found to be unproven and there is little

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Speaker 3: supporting medical evidence for it. And yet you know, they

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Speaker 3: come out and defend what they're doing, accuse me of

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Speaker 3: being engaged in cultural wars and that it would be

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Speaker 3: damaging to these kids. If this program was reviewed now,

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Speaker 3: it couldn't be burthed on the truth mat Yet, it's

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Speaker 3: not my mission to be involved in culture wars or

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Speaker 3: anything like that. I'm in it for child protection, the

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Speaker 3: welfare of our children and to ensure they're getting the

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Speaker 3: best standard of care and that's proven, it's proven medically,

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Speaker 3: and they can't do that.

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Speaker 1: But the government, the Premier has promised a review. Any

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Speaker 1: word on timing when that's likely to happen, what sort

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Speaker 1: of form.

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Speaker 3: It'll be, Well, he hasn't promised a review. He said, oh, look,

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Speaker 3: we'll look at it, right. Well, they've been looking at

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Speaker 3: it for some time now. And look, I know that

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Speaker 3: the Health Minister is also considering it as well. But

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Speaker 3: it needs to be a totally independent review, distanced from government.

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Speaker 3: You have to have somebody of the caliber of doctor

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Speaker 3: Hillary Cass that is going to be and doctor Hillary

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Speaker 3: Cass of course, is the medical practitioner that carried out

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Speaker 3: the report in the UK that led to significant overhaul

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Speaker 3: and reforms there. So we need somebody of the caliber

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Speaker 3: of doctor Hillary Cats and I'm sure that they're available

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Speaker 3: in australis not somebody that's the Health Minister or the

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Speaker 3: Premier and picks so they can get a desired result

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Speaker 3: from it.

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Speaker 1: The question I've got, and I'm sure a lot of

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Speaker 1: people must be thinking as well, why are children as

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Speaker 1: young as three being considered the gender diversity.

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Speaker 3: Andrew Matthew. I'm not particularly certain about what the circumstances

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Speaker 3: were for those children, right, and I'm going to have

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Speaker 3: to be asking more questions about whether these children were

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Speaker 3: eventually put even on puberty blockers. But these statistics caught

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Speaker 3: me by surprise when they were shown to me by

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Speaker 3: the Honorable Heidi Jerrolimo after a question she had put

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Speaker 3: to the Attorney General Kayan mart And we have kids

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Speaker 3: as young as three to five years old in the

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Speaker 3: puberty in the gender clinic, thirty four age six to ten.

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Speaker 3: There was an enormous spike in March twenty twenty two

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Speaker 3: of kids eleven to fifteen, something like two hundred and

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Speaker 3: forty four. Last year was two hundred, this year one

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Speaker 3: hundred and fifty two. Now we're only talking about a

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Speaker 3: specific date of March the thirty first, twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: so we still don't know how many are in there.

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Speaker 3: Sixteen to seventeen, one hundred and thirty six, last years

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Speaker 3: one hundred thirteen. Now again this is only for March

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. And look, we need to have a

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Speaker 3: really close look about what's going on here. What are

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Speaker 3: the factors that are involved in children seeking these types

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Speaker 3: of treatment, because it can't just be a case of

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Speaker 3: suddenly they've waken up and decided they're either a boy

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Speaker 3: or a girl exactly. There could be other psychological factors,

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Speaker 3: you know, And look, there's a cohort of these children

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Speaker 3: that also are on the autism spectrum. Could that have

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Speaker 3: something to do with it? Can it be mental illness?

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Speaker 3: There are many other factors. These need to be answered.

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Speaker 3: You just can't go putting these kids on gender affirmation

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Speaker 3: policies without proper scrutiny about why they're going on there.

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Speaker 3: And they're refusing to do this, and you have to

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Speaker 3: ask why why are they doing this?

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Speaker 1: What are you taking it next? Frank to trying to

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Speaker 1: get a parliamentary inquiry running. Is that still the aim?

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Speaker 3: Well, I do have my motion currently before the Parliament

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Speaker 3: which I didn't put to vote after the Premiere refused

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Speaker 3: to allow his Caucuses members to have a conscience vote.

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Speaker 3: If it was a conscience vote, I was very confident

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Speaker 3: we would have got to a parliamentary inquiry. But the

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Speaker 3: Premier then says we can't interfere in making parliament Campy

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Speaker 3: seem to be making medical decisions. I mean, well, a

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Speaker 3: lot of crap.

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Speaker 1: That is.

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Speaker 3: How many bills have they passed through the years that

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Speaker 3: relates to that as well, you know, most recently the

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Speaker 3: euthanasia build and then these awful abortional forms that will

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Speaker 3: put through under Vicky Chapman's regime. So you know, he

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Speaker 3: was also quoted saying that much rather any sort of

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Speaker 3: examination of this to be done in a methodical, policy

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Speaker 3: based way, based on science and best available medical advice.

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Speaker 3: Well that is out there now. You are not doing

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Speaker 3: the right thing by these kids. He needs to listen.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned the forum today and obviously Chloe addressing that

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Speaker 1: in Courtney, who else is attending, who's actually in.

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Speaker 3: The forum, and doctor Andrew Amos, who's a highly credential

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Speaker 3: respected psychiatrist. And look, there are a number of people

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Speaker 3: that will be there. I think it's probably the biggest

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Speaker 3: forum that I've seen in Parliament since I was elected.

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Speaker 3: We've got about one hundred people coming, and there probably

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Speaker 3: would have been three or four hundred people that would

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Speaker 3: have wanted to come if we're able to put him in.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, we'll find out what happens from there and

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Speaker 1: aspect to you in the future.

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Speaker 3: And look, it's been done in conjunction with my parliamentary

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Speaker 3: colleagues Heidi Jerolimo and Laura Henderson, and we'll see where

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Speaker 3: it goes today. But I'm hopeful that the government will

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Speaker 3: now consider an independent review if they don't want to

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Speaker 3: give it to Parliament to do it, Okay, I'm happy

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Speaker 3: with that, but have an independent review the caliber of

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Speaker 3: the one we saw in the UK.

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Speaker 1: Frank Pangelo, thanks for your time. Thank you Upper House

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Speaker 1: Independent