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Speaker 1: Some way, in some shape or form, if you don't

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Speaker 1: get arrested. Karma plays a role in it. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you can go through that life without certain amount

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Speaker 1: of bad luck, bad ju ju or bad karma coming

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Speaker 1: and just darkening your door.

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Speaker 2: Let me take you back to where we started this series.

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Speaker 3: They banged on my door, then got me up powder

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Speaker 3: and they opened the doors. So you said it was early.

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Speaker 3: We need to go the gospel.

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Speaker 2: The brutal murder of a twenty six year old woman

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Speaker 2: called Ellie Edwards, who was just standing outside a pub

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Speaker 2: on Christmas Eve. Ellie was wholly innocent, caught in the

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Speaker 2: crossfire of a conflict between two local gangs. She was

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Speaker 2: shot dead by Connor Chapman, a twenty two year old

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Speaker 2: low level cocaine.

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Speaker 3: Dealer, the very first day of the trial. He walked

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Speaker 3: into the courtroom. Within twenty minutes, he never looked at

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Speaker 3: me again because he's just a coward.

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Speaker 2: Now, my colleague David Collins is retracing Chapman's steps.

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Speaker 4: So I'm just driving Pastor and Asda, about to turn

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Speaker 4: onto wood Church Estate and cross into what feels like

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Speaker 4: a bit of an invisible line into an estate which

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Speaker 4: is the central kind of hob for one of the

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Speaker 4: most dangerous gangs operating right now in Britain, which is

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Speaker 4: the wood Church Estate Gang.

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Speaker 2: The wood Church Estate is where Chapman grew up. It's

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Speaker 2: a few kilometers from Liverpool City center on the Wirral Peninsula.

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Speaker 2: Around eleven thousand people call the wood Church home. The

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Speaker 2: majority they're honest, hard working, many of them families.

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Speaker 4: I can see kind of small masonets, small terraced houses.

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Speaker 4: It feels to me at the moment quite typical of

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Speaker 4: a lot of housing estates in towns and cities across England,

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Speaker 4: slightly run down.

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Speaker 2: This estate is also a retail hard for the cocaine business.

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Speaker 4: It's strange to think, as I'm driving through this estate,

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Speaker 4: which feels quite peaceful at the moment, that it is

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Speaker 4: the epicenter of one of Britain's most brutal and bloody

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Speaker 4: gang wars. In some of these houses may well be

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Speaker 4: the weapons. The guns, the scorpion guns that are used

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Speaker 4: have been used by the wood Church Estate Gang.

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Speaker 2: Ellie's killing took place in December twenty twenty two. A

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Speaker 2: few months earlier, another innocent young woman, Ashley Dale, was

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Speaker 2: at home in Liverpool when her front door was forced open.

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Speaker 2: The intruders were looking for a man from a rival

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Speaker 2: gang her boyfriend. He wasn't home, so instead they murdered

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Speaker 2: Ashley with a Scorpion submachine gun, the same kind of

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Speaker 2: high powered weapon as the one Chapman used to kill Ellie.

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Speaker 4: She ran for her life into the dining room in

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Speaker 4: a desperate attempt to reach the back door, Bullet markings

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Speaker 4: left embedded in the walls and on the floor.

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Speaker 2: The next day, again in Liverpool, a man pushed his

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Speaker 2: way into the home of a stranger to escape another

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Speaker 2: man shooting at him. The gunman shot at the front door,

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Speaker 2: the bullet missed. The man passed through the wrist of

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Speaker 2: the woman blocking the door and straight into the chest

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Speaker 2: of her daughter, Olivia prat Corbel, killing her. She was

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Speaker 2: just nine years old.

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Speaker 5: The murder of Olivia has rocked our communities, who are

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Speaker 5: quite rightly upset and outraged that such an abhorrent crime

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Speaker 5: has occurred here on the streets of Merseyside.

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Speaker 2: These three deaths, they were unrelated, but they did have

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Speaker 2: something in common. The victims were all collateral damage in

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Speaker 2: the conflict between gangs who between them have divided up

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Speaker 2: and fight over the local drug market because it's here

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Speaker 2: on Merseyside, thousands of kilometers from the coker fields of

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Speaker 2: Columbia and six hundred kilometers from the huge port of

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Speaker 2: Rotterdam where tons of cocaine are shipped into Europe. That

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Speaker 2: the next stage the global business plays out, the retail

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Speaker 2: operation where cocaine is bought and sold by street dealers

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Speaker 2: who live in the same parts of town as Ellie Ashley,

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Speaker 2: Olivia and other innocent people like me or you. I'm

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Speaker 2: Fiona Hamilton and from The Times, The Sunday Times and

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Speaker 2: News Corp Australia. This is Cocaine Inc. Episode five, the

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Speaker 2: wood Church Estate. Okay, it's worth looking at where we've

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Speaker 2: got to in our investigation, working in a team with

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Speaker 2: three reporters, myself, David Collins from The Sunday Times in

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Speaker 2: the UK and Stephen Drill from News Corp Australia, exploring

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Speaker 2: how the cocaine trade works as a business. Steven's been

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Speaker 2: in Columbia and Mexico looking at the production and supply

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Speaker 2: roots of the drug.

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Speaker 6: Eight hundred kilograms in the ceiling of two containers.

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Speaker 2: As well as how the first cartels grew from small

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Speaker 2: scales smuggling outfits into a multinational, billion dollar operation.

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Speaker 7: The Medigan Catel changed everything in the cocaine business. They

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Speaker 7: were the first to industrialize the process, shipping and flying

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Speaker 7: cocaine vast quantities out of the country, according.

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Speaker 8: To American officials, controlling as much as eighty percent of

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Speaker 8: the world supply.

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Speaker 2: I went to Europe's largest port, Rotterdam, which functions as

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Speaker 2: a logistics hub in which shipping containers filled with cocaine

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Speaker 2: moved through a global distribution network.

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Speaker 4: They need somebody from inter for health information. You see

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Speaker 4: corruption everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Now David is back where we started, in the north

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Speaker 2: of England, where cocaine is sold on the streets and

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Speaker 2: near where Ellie Edwards was murdered. A bit of background.

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Speaker 2: The wood Church estate is the largest housing estate on

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Speaker 2: the Wirral, but many here feel like they've just been

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Speaker 2: left behind. Local news reports say economic cuts and a

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Speaker 2: lack of opportunities mean children and teenagers in the area

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Speaker 2: are simply left with little to do and that creates

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Speaker 2: a vacuum and it certainly creates a problem. Now you

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Speaker 2: might be thinking that because Liverpool is a port city,

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Speaker 2: this is where the coke comes in, but actually surprisingly

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Speaker 2: little does. When the coke leaves Rotterdam, for example, in

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Speaker 2: shipping containers, it makes the short journey across the English

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Speaker 2: Channel to the UK's southern coast. Usually it gets loaded

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Speaker 2: onto lorries and distributed to the major cities like Manchester,

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Speaker 2: London and Liverpool where gangs receive the drugs. They sell

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Speaker 2: it on the streets of Merseyside or distribute it to

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Speaker 2: nearby smaller towns and rural areas. What David wants to

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Speaker 2: find out is how does this part of the cocaine

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Speaker 2: business run, How do the gangs involve turn a profit

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Speaker 2: and what happens to that money.

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Speaker 4: It's a wet, windy autumn day that The center of

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Speaker 4: the estate is the main road that runs through the

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Speaker 4: wood Church. It's called the Whole Road and known by

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Speaker 4: everyone in the area. On it there's a small supermarket,

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Speaker 4: a pharmacy, a betting shop and a chippy. In recent years,

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Speaker 4: the police have put in what they call a Public

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Speaker 4: Spaces Protection Order. What this means is that anyone who

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Speaker 4: was in a group of two or more around these

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Speaker 4: shops between three pm and ten pm must leave when

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Speaker 4: asked to do so by the police. There's a list

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Speaker 4: of other things you can't do, such as racing bikes, scooters,

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Speaker 4: wearing anything to disguise your face, or drinking alcohol. It

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Speaker 4: sounds pretty repressive and it's designed specifically to tackle gangs.

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Speaker 4: And it's because in twenty twenty two the Woodchurch suffered

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Speaker 4: a year of extreme violence. There were four separate shootings

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Speaker 4: in or around the estate, all young men caught in

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Speaker 4: gang related crossfire. More broadly, on the Wirral, in the

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Speaker 4: last six months of twenty twenty three, police launched the

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Speaker 4: Coordinated Operation to clear out gang activity. They made seven

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Speaker 4: hundred and twenty two arrests, seizing crossbows, knives, drugs and

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Speaker 4: more than thirty eight pounds in cash. I want to

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Speaker 4: know what it's like to live in an area with

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Speaker 4: this going on. I go to one of the roads

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Speaker 4: on the estate where there was a shooting in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty two. So it's boys. I'm from the Times newspaper.

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Speaker 4: I'm doing a podcast. You know there was a shooting

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Speaker 4: it last year.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't. It's more it was more down that

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Speaker 9: side of the road than the other end.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, all right. I'm a journalist for the Times.

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Speaker 4: Would you mind a quick way my brain at the moment. Okay,

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Speaker 4: an day, I can't work out what's less appealing, an

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Speaker 4: investigative reporter or the weather. Yeah. Yeah, but eventually I

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Speaker 4: meet someone who's willing to talk.

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Speaker 10: I mean, I was twenty three when I moved off.

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Speaker 10: I'm seventy four now, got four shield in. I had

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Speaker 10: no problem whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: They talk a lot about the gangs, don't they in

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Speaker 4: the shoes?

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Speaker 11: Well that's what it's all over, isn't it.

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Speaker 10: It's just a few between here over on the other

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Speaker 10: states and the two estates.

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Speaker 11: It's been like that for years?

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Speaker 4: How long?

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Speaker 11: Oh, I say about fifty years?

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Speaker 10: So even when you were Alhen, I moved up here

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Speaker 10: because I've had a bad name.

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Speaker 11: Man, you're not going on the woods here, are you.

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Speaker 4: What are these rows about?

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Speaker 11: Do you think you know what it's about. I don't

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Speaker 11: have to say the word, you know, the word drugs.

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Speaker 11: I'm getting out today.

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Speaker 10: Okay, okay, thank you.

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Speaker 4: Right, So let's have a look at this so called

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Speaker 4: gang rivalry. The Wood Church of State is less than

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Speaker 4: two miles from a place called the Beechwood Estate. It's

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Speaker 4: separated by the M fifty three motorway. The Beachwood was

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Speaker 4: particularly notorious back in the day. In the early eighties,

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Speaker 4: it was estimated that one in ten sixteen to twenty

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Speaker 4: four year olds were heroin addicts. At that time it

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Speaker 4: was known as the Ford Estate, but it essentially rebranded

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Speaker 4: to try and distance itself from its troubled past. Now

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Speaker 4: on the Beechwood and wood Church, it's well known that

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Speaker 4: the two gangs deal in cocaine and other drugs, and

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Speaker 4: competition for control of that retail market has led to

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Speaker 4: years of tip for tat crime, savage beatings, burglaries. In

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Speaker 4: a violent year on the wood Church estate in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty two shootings including a twenty three year old man

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Speaker 4: shot multiple times in broad daylight on the whole road

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Speaker 4: in front of children. This is former Detective Superintendent Richard Carr.

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Speaker 4: These days Richard, as a lecturer at Liverpool John Balls University,

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Speaker 4: was sitting in a small, white walled room. It feels

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Speaker 4: like the kind of room where he might start interrogating me.

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Speaker 4: What made you want to be a police officer?

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Speaker 12: Something I always wanted to do? So I started in

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Speaker 12: industry act So I left school at sixteen, went into

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Speaker 12: industry for a few years, doing an apprenticeship, and then

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Speaker 12: joined the police at twenty one in Merseyside in nineteen

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Speaker 12: eighty seven. There's no policing in my family. I was

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Speaker 12: going out with a girl at the time. Her dad

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Speaker 12: was a police officer. He was a detective. So this

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Speaker 12: is early eighties and things were very different then.

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Speaker 4: Richard's a tall, gangly chap with short hair and looks

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Speaker 4: every bit of retired copper. He spent thirty years investigating guns,

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Speaker 4: gangs and murders in Liverpool and across wider Merseyside in

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Speaker 4: the mid noughties. He remembers a change.

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Speaker 12: For fast forward to two thousand and six or seven.

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Speaker 12: That's where it became really apparent to me around the

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Speaker 12: gang culture. What we were seeing was an escalation in

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Speaker 12: firearms criminality. That was really as a sergeant, my first

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Speaker 12: exposure to gang criminality.

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Speaker 4: Around this time a unit called the Matrix was been

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Speaker 4: set up. Richard was part of it. The Matrix is

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Speaker 4: famous on Beersey side. It employs some of the toughest

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Speaker 4: and hardest coppers about. They go in, knock doors down,

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Speaker 4: slap handcuffs on that kind of stuff. Richard retired from

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Speaker 4: the police in March twenty seventeen, five years before Ellie's murder,

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Speaker 4: so if you.

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Speaker 12: Get a crime the likes of Ellie Edwards, then there

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Speaker 12: is a clear drive to respond to that in a

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Speaker 12: quick and robust way because you want to provide some

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Speaker 12: reassured us to the public that the police are doing

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Speaker 12: something about it. Do you want to put those that

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Speaker 12: are responsible on the back foot. In my experience with

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Speaker 12: crimes of this nature, it wouldn't be unusual that you may.

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Speaker 6: Be doing search warrants at midnight.

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Speaker 12: So traditionally you might waite until the early hours, but

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Speaker 12: if you're trying to keep the pace of things going,

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Speaker 12: you may do search warrants through the nights to just

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Speaker 12: try and keep the pace of the investigation going. So

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Speaker 12: you're looking to try and manage your intelligence, you're looking

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Speaker 12: to manage your staff, you're looking to try and deploy

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Speaker 12: your resources, and you're looking to provide.

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Speaker 4: Gang violence and drug running in the UK is not

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Speaker 4: unique to Liverpool and Merseyside. Cities like London, Manchester, Birmingham

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Speaker 4: and Glasgow all have their problems. Liverpool's police force is

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Speaker 4: regarded as one of the national leaders in tackling gang crime,

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Speaker 4: being consistently praised by the UK's Police watchdog.

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Speaker 12: So Yeah, Merseyside are an outstanding force certainly are out

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Speaker 12: dealing with this early and they've just been categorized as

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Speaker 12: the same again for twenty twenty three, which is nice

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Speaker 12: to see.

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Speaker 4: And in terms of how the cocaine trade works with

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Speaker 4: those gangs and the violence between them in mind, how

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Speaker 4: do you see the cocaine trade operating.

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Speaker 12: If you look at a triangle. At the top of

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Speaker 12: the triangle, you've got the head of the organized crime group.

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Speaker 12: At the bottom of the triangle, you've got the street

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Speaker 12: dealers and such. And I've got to say, I'm not

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Speaker 12: sure how organized some of these groups are. You know,

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Speaker 12: if you think about it in terms of the issues

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Speaker 12: the urban street gangs, which are the street level dealers

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Speaker 12: and the ones that are fighting over territory and maybe

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Speaker 12: scratching around for sales and aspiring to be crime groups

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Speaker 12: in their own right, they're protecting their empire and it

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Speaker 12: generally involves violence.

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Speaker 6: So it really dealing.

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Speaker 12: With cocaine or drugs, well, generally you're just trying to

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Speaker 12: tackle that structure.

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Speaker 4: Gangs like the wood Church estate of money in cocaine terms,

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Speaker 4: and they're making.

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Speaker 12: I'm not so sure they're making as much as you

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Speaker 12: might think, because if they could elevate themselves.

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Speaker 6: They would.

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Speaker 12: My assessment is at the street level, lets us blow

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Speaker 12: that cash.

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Speaker 11: My lads, how are you doing?

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Speaker 4: Back in a mud church estate, I meet a couple

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Speaker 4: of young lads hanging around on a bench near the

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Speaker 4: boarded up leisure center. I get chatting to one of them.

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Speaker 13: You get used to her. With the stuff that happens

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Speaker 13: around here. It's always the same stuff though, like all

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Speaker 13: the shootings and all like the activity and everything with

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Speaker 13: the police about being about it's just a regular occurrence.

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Speaker 9: To be fair.

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Speaker 4: We've only been talking for barely a minute, but straight

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Speaker 4: away he's brought up shootings and the presents. He goes

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Speaker 4: on to tell me he thinks the violence is mainly

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Speaker 4: related to reputation rather than business disputes.

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Speaker 13: I think more disrespect and then on the money side

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Speaker 13: as well.

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Speaker 4: Would you like to go on to Beechwood.

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Speaker 13: I'd never go on there because you know what's from

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Speaker 13: the wood churge. What would happen if you went on,

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Speaker 13: probably get shot or something, or just hairt or something made.

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Speaker 4: That that might sound extreme, paranoid even, but it gives

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Speaker 4: you a sense of how deep the fault lines go

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Speaker 4: and the impact it has on everyone young boys and

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Speaker 4: men feel scared to leave their estate. I have no

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Speaker 4: reason to believe this teenage was connected to the cocaine trade,

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Speaker 4: all the gangs in any way. In fact, because he's

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Speaker 4: openly chatting to me and using his real voice means

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Speaker 4: he almost certainly isn't. But I'm struck by this idea

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Speaker 4: that he won't go on to the beach with a State.

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Speaker 14: It's crazy evidence just to play.

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Speaker 9: You know, where one day someone's windows done, or you

291
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Speaker 9: may get arrested. There's something different every single day.

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Speaker 4: This is Johnny. That's not his real name. His words

293
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Speaker 4: are being spoken by an actor to protect his identity

294
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Speaker 4: and also for his safety. He was until recently part

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Speaker 4: of a gang, but his circumstances have now changed.

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Speaker 14: Someone's windows got done on the Ford the State last night.

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Speaker 9: Here the body and straight away and there exactly it

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Speaker 9: would be, and here it was and what it was over.

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Speaker 14: This is stuff that's been going on for years.

300
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Speaker 4: Johnny's from the Beach with a State, which he still

301
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Speaker 4: calls the Ford.

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Speaker 9: It's always remembered. If it's a big thing, it gets remembered.

303
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 9: Someoney's name got mentioned day and straight away I remembered

304
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Speaker 9: from when I was a kid. He went to jail

305
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Speaker 9: when he was eighteen for stabbing someone, and he's late

306
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Speaker 9: twenty five now.

307
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Speaker 14: So these sorts of things last forever.

308
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Speaker 4: The rivalway between these gangs has been around for decades,

309
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Speaker 4: but technology has created even more problems.

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Speaker 14: Social media is the waste it runs the entire world.

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Speaker 9: A lot of people that I was friends with were

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Speaker 9: having argument on social media. People getting embarrassed on social media.

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Speaker 9: You know these days, if there's a fight gets recorded,

314
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Speaker 9: or if five kids are gonna go and jump one lad,

315
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 9: one of them would fill me and then plastered it

316
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Speaker 9: all over Snapchat to embarrass the person, and then in

317
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Speaker 9: response to that window might get done.

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Speaker 4: Getting your windows done is slang for deliberately smashed or broken.

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Speaker 9: Eviden's just about how do I embarrass them? It's not

320
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Speaker 9: about do I hate them? Because you know the point

321
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 9: of doing someone's windows isn't to say you need to

322
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Speaker 9: pay for that damage. It's to say, your week, we've

323
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Speaker 9: got to do your windows. What are you gonna do

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Speaker 9: about it?

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Speaker 14: It?

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00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 4: Talking to Johnny confirms what Richard Carr, the X copper

327
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 4: told me. The street gangs that make up the retail

328
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Speaker 4: arm of the cocaine business aren't really that professional. Actually,

329
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Speaker 4: they're pretty disorganized, volatile, and if you're running a business

330
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Speaker 4: and looking to make money, that's a problem.

331
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Speaker 8: One of the keys to Apple is Apple's an incredibly

332
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Speaker 8: collaborative company. You know how many committees we have at Apple,

333
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Speaker 8: No zero.

334
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Speaker 4: Take Steve Jobs, the co founder of Apple. Somebody knew

335
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Speaker 4: a little bit about running a business and making money.

336
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Speaker 8: They have no committees.

337
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Speaker 4: This is Jobs being interviews at business conference back in

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Speaker 4: twenty ten.

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Speaker 8: We're organized like a startup and we all meet for

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Speaker 8: three hours once a week and we talk about everything

341
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 8: we're doing, the whole business. And there's tremendous teamwork at

342
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Speaker 8: the top of the company, which filters down to tremendous

343
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Speaker 8: teamwork throughout the company.

344
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Speaker 4: So that's the secret teamwork, But that depends on having

345
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Speaker 4: a team who work together.

346
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Speaker 8: And teamwork is dependent on trusting the other folks to

347
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 8: come through with their part without watching them all the time.

348
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Speaker 8: And we're great at figuring out how to divide things

349
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Speaker 8: up into these great teams that we have.

350
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Speaker 4: The challenge then is finding those great people, which has

351
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Speaker 4: made much harder if you're in the cocaine business because

352
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 4: it's illegal In some parts of Latin America, drug gangs

353
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 4: were putting out job ads written on blankets, which were

354
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 4: then hung on bridges so the locals could see them.

355
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 4: On those blankets it said things like we offer you

356
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Speaker 4: a good salary and food, or we offer benefits, life insurance,

357
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Speaker 4: a house for your family and children, a new car

358
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Speaker 4: or truck your choice. That might work in Mexico, but

359
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,719
Speaker 4: in Merseyside the police are much more likely to notice

360
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 4: something quite so obvious and do something about it. What

361
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 4: we're talking about here is hr human resources, which is

362
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 4: a challenge for any modern business, let alone the cocaine business.

363
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 4: Get it right, employing people you can trust without you

364
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 4: having to watch them, and you can make a fortune.

365
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 4: Get it wrong and you end up with the crucial

366
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 4: part of the cocaine business, the moment when it's sold

367
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Speaker 4: to the customer, reliant on some violent, unruly street gang

368
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 4: like those on the wood Church estate, who are likely

369
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 4: to lash out over some embarrassment on Snapchat, and at worst,

370
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 4: the likes of Connor Chapman who shoot up pubs, killing

371
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 4: innocent people, bringing your business to the attention of the police.

372
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 4: Can you remember where you were when you found out

373
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Speaker 4: about Ellie Edwards.

374
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can. I found out of Ellie's auntie. I

375
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: remember when she formed me to tell me what has happened.

376
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 4: I was like, wow, and can you remember what she

377
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 4: said to you?

378
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: I could just remember the tone, and you know when

379
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: someone's in shock because you're just getting that monotone and

380
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: there's no there's no emotion in it because you're just

381
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: stuck in that moment. I just offered support.

382
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 4: I'm talking with Paul Warmsley.

383
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: I used to be a career criminal and was written

384
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: as most wanted, but now I helped those who are

385
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: struggling to get out of these estates.

386
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 4: Paul is short and stocky. He's warm and friendly, but

387
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 4: also as an intense stare in the air of someone

388
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 4: who you might not want to cross. It's probably because

389
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 4: I know a bit about Paul's past that I feel

390
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 4: this way. In the nineties, he was a successful drug

391
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 4: dealer and by the naughties was making a lot of money.

392
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 4: But in twenty eleven, Paul, who being on the run

393
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 4: hiding out in Costadel Saul in southern Spain, handed himself

394
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 4: in to the police. Dubbed the cost to Crook, Paul

395
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 4: left pras in twenty sixteen unlicense. These days he's a

396
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 4: researcher at Liverpool University as well as participating in various

397
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 4: projects to help young people.

398
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: It was a state a students at school. You know,

399
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 1: everyone thought I was going to go and play for

400
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: a football club or maybe even go to university. But

401
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: I just had None of them thought I was just young,

402
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: very naive, obviously stupid and yet never thought I was clever,

403
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: never thought I was intelligent, was just living life.

404
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 4: What made you first get involved in the drugs trade?

405
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: I think identity wanted to fit in, wanting to be

406
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: one of the lads with father died at an early age,

407
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: so you got some attachment issues going on there. And

408
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: then it wasn't until I was forty that I was

409
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: realized that I was groomed. I just thought these older

410
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: lads like me, and he thought I was cool, and

411
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: then it's just spidals out of control.

412
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 4: And just on the wood Church States. There's obviously the

413
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 4: wood Church a state gang which we know about they

414
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: dealing drugs. How do you think they work as a business.

415
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: So there's a hierarchy, there's a chain where there's a hierarchy.

416
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: In a chain, everyone wants to climb. In my experience,

417
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: it's very chaotic, and it's in the little pockets of

418
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: where you'll get four or five lads who are just

419
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: honor and working together. They might have older lads who

420
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: are controlling them and feeding them, and them older lads

421
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: might have other older lads who maybe don't even live

422
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: in the country, who are organizing all that.

423
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 4: Do the kids from these estates trust the police?

424
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: Some of them do. Don't forget you know we're talking.

425
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: It's a minority of these young people who are involved

426
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: in gun and gang and violence, and they don't. But

427
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: they don't trust anyone. They don't even trust the lads

428
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: to work and with never mind trust the police.

429
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 4: Paul went to jail after he was found guilty for

430
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 4: being part of a three point five million pounds heroin plot.

431
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 4: But how much as similar drug deal in groups making today.

432
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: It depends where you are in the scale of things.

433
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: It depends what age, what eschel on you're on, Who

434
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: runs you, who doesn't run you. Have you got your

435
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: own little crew?

436
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 6: You know?

437
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: Have you got your own little thing going do? Is

438
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: your ship taste? You know you're running all this and

439
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: you know it can go from anything from fifty grand

440
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: to I don't know, maybe a couple of mil, maybe

441
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: twenty mil, who knows.

442
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 4: So if you've got two businesses, illegal businesses, side by side,

443
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 4: the wood Church estate is a gang making say a million,

444
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 4: and the Beachwood of state is another drugs gang next

445
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: door making a million. Is this a about a hostile

446
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 4: takeover situation where one of those wants to earn two million?

447
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: It could be, but more than likely it won't be.

448
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,479
Speaker 1: More than likely to be something stupid. Anything can trigger

449
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: a spout of violence and some beef with these young people.

450
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: They're making more money is an afterthought. It's saving face,

451
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: which is the first thought. It's saving face and reputation.

452
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: It's all about the reputation, because if he's from a

453
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: deprived area, that's the only thing that's going to make

454
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: him any money.

455
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 4: But despite this perceived need by a lot of these

456
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 4: young men to save face, if they weren't working in

457
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 4: drugs gangs, could they succeed in a more legitimate line

458
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 4: of work.

459
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: It sounds a little bit ridiculous and a little bit

460
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: far fetched, but all them skills that are also transferable

461
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: into business. Loads of these young people are stute. You

462
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: know if he can go and set up a business

463
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: at the age of twelve, thirteen, fourteen and have the

464
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: goal to do it, and they've got something about them,

465
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: But no one's ever told them that they've got a

466
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: business sense about them.

467
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 4: The young ones that get involved in the drugs trade. Yeah,

468
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 4: out of one hundred drug dealers, how many would you say,

469
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 4: in the end get away with it? None? Really?

470
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: None, some way, in some shape or form if you

471
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: don't get arrested. Karma plays a role in it.

472
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 4: Let me tell.

473
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: You, you can't go through that life without certain amount

474
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: of bad luck, bad juju, or bad karma coming and

475
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: just darkening your door.

476
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 4: Because to operate a business like that, I guess you

477
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 4: have to inflict violence.

478
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: It's what it brings.

479
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 4: It's what it brings.

480
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: If you dish it out, it will come back in

481
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: some way, shape or form.

482
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 12: So I'm a mid point drug dealer and I am

483
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 12: trying to think of ways that I can make my

484
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 12: criminal money into legitimate money.

485
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 4: Richard car the ex copper. Again, as well as the violence,

486
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 4: another issue for those involved in the cocaine business at

487
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 4: the retail level is how to turn their dirty money

488
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 4: into something cleaner. How do they loander their profits.

489
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 12: One way of doing that is through businesses that generally

490
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 12: deal in cash, you know, sow your tanning salons, your

491
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 12: fast food outlets, your taxi ranks, so on and so forth.

492
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 12: There will be an element of legitimacy to the business.

493
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 4: Much like the dealing. It starts at street level.

494
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 6: So for give an example around the tanning salon.

495
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 12: So I would put someone in that and they get

496
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 12: aways perhaps or they may be part of the group.

497
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 12: But what I want to do is make sure or

498
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 12: give the appearance to the money coming into that salon

499
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 12: is legitimate. And one way of doing that would be

500
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 12: to manipulate the accounts. Their books will say that there

501
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 12: are one hundred customers coming through the tanning salon per day,

502
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 12: all paying three pounds for a tan when the reality

503
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 12: is that there might be one or two. So there's

504
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 12: very small legitimate turnover. Those that are semi legitimate, but

505
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 12: maybe funding criminality and the purchase of drugs through a

506
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 12: semi legitimate business. So they're turning the money over.

507
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 4: And then after the money has gone into the tanning

508
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 4: salon and it's part of the books and the profits

509
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 4: and the earnings of that business, how do then criminals

510
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 4: access that money.

511
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 12: Well it's clean, then it can then go into the

512
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 12: banking system, so it become legitimates and it becomes very

513
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 12: difficult then for law enforcement to take acting against that

514
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 12: unless to can prove it.

515
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 4: So let's take that tanning salon example. Is it possible

516
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 4: for police to keep on top of this?

517
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 12: So for me to prove a money laundering operation against stars,

518
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 12: one way of doing it would be to have a

519
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 12: couple of police officers sat out on counting people coming

520
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 12: in and coming out.

521
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 4: Does that go on?

522
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 14: Do you do that?

523
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 6: Sat outside the addresses? Very rarely. Don't got the resources.

524
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 4: Apart from using tanning salons, fast food outlets, taxi ranks.

525
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 4: How else can you make the money clean? How do

526
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 4: the guys at the top of organizations get the big bucks? Well,

527
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 4: one way of doing it is by feeling a few

528
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 4: suitcases full of millions of pounds in hard cash and

529
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 4: simply carrying it onto a plane to a country where

530
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 4: money laundering rules are very like following the next step

531
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 4: in the cocaine business, I meet a woman who did

532
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 4: just that. She was part of one of the most

533
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 4: audacious cash smuggling operations in UK history. I couldn't believe

534
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 4: how much it was.

535
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 2: I didn't really think it was going to be into

536
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: the millions.

537
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 11: And I thought, what the fuck have I got myself into?

538
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 4: That's next time on Cocaine Inc.

539
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: Cocaine Inc. Is a joint investigation from the Times for

540
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: Sunday Times and News Corp Australia. The reporters are David Collins,

541
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: Steven Drill and me Fiona Hamilton. The series is produced

542
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 2: by Sam Chanterassak. The executive producers are Will Row and

543
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 2: Dan Box. Audio production and editing is by Jasper Link,

544
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 2: with original music by Tom Burchill. Johnny was voiced by

545
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 2: Alex Whittle. Special thanks to Matt Gibbs at the Carbridge

546
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: Center on the wood Church Estate for his assistance with

547
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: this episode and if you want to get in touch

548
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: with any questions or thoughts on the series, email Cocaine Inc.

549
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: At The Times dot co dot uk