Speaker 1: Before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the custodians
Speaker 1: of the land on which we record, and for me
Speaker 1: today that's the Gaddigel people of the urination.
Speaker 2: And for me it's a roundered people of the cooler nation.
Speaker 1: Hey, Brenda fans, my name's Mattie Mills.
Speaker 3: And I'm Brook Blatton and we host another Nova podcast
Speaker 3: called First Things First.
Speaker 1: And this week we interviewed our queen, Courtney Act and
Speaker 1: we thought it might be a chat you'd love to
Speaker 1: listen to.
Speaker 3: Courtney dishes some goss about whether she'd go back on
Speaker 3: Drag Race, what reality TV shows she would do, and
Speaker 3: whether her and Rue have fixed the rift.
Speaker 1: Now that is some good goss. And if you enjoyed
Speaker 1: the episode and you'd like to listen to more, feel
Speaker 1: free to come over to the First Things First podcast
Speaker 1: and catch us every week.
Speaker 2: Enjoy all right, really have Courtney in studio.
Speaker 4: I'm even in high drag, which is more than we
Speaker 4: ever did for Brenda. Call me so I love this.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the first question I said, Is it Shane
Speaker 1: or is it Courtney?
Speaker 4: Right, it's Courtney, And I will say I am in
Speaker 4: high drag, but I am wearing a wig with bangs,
Speaker 4: which to me is it's not quite drag. It's like
Speaker 4: because it's like gluing on a lace front. It's a
Speaker 4: lot for early in the morning. Totally, I'm wearing Doc
Speaker 4: Martins and bangs, and it's it's as minimal effort but
Speaker 4: still with maximum impact drag.
Speaker 1: Well it's more than Valentina when she wore the mask.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's drag references.
Speaker 1: Always so excited to have you in studio. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's been a little while. How to be back here
Speaker 1: at Novo.
Speaker 4: It's so lovely. I miss it. I miss Brenda call me.
Speaker 4: We had so much fun. And I love podcasting. I
Speaker 4: love listening to podcasts, and I love listening to like
Speaker 4: friends chatting on podcasts. And this week I kind of
Speaker 4: realized I have this weird relationship with podcasts, Like if
Speaker 4: I listen to you too, I'm like, oh, I know
Speaker 4: these two people, and so I feel like I'm listening
Speaker 4: to like people that I know have a friendly conversation
Speaker 4: and I know details about your lives and know you personally,
Speaker 4: and so it's kind of you get that intimate experience.
Speaker 4: And then I was like, I think that's just what
Speaker 4: everybody loves about listening to friendship podcast totally. For me,
Speaker 4: it's like I get to keep up on your lives
Speaker 4: even when I don't get to them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 4: But then for other people, they're not in them at all,
Speaker 4: and so it's say this parasocial relationship. But then for me,
Speaker 4: I don't know. It was just a weird moment where
Speaker 4: I realized that all podcasts that I love are actually
Speaker 4: my friends talking to each other. I love that.
Speaker 1: Well, Courtney, You've been on so many shows, you know,
Speaker 1: reality TV shows over the years. Currently, there's a global
Speaker 1: All Styles of Drag Race.
Speaker 4: And which was filmed in Columbia. Were you just WHOA?
Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah? The first question that comes to mind was
Speaker 1: why A don't you want it?
Speaker 4: Why aren't I on it?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: What are you? And you're not telling us the next season?
Speaker 4: I just got back from Columbia. No, that's what That's
Speaker 4: what I was doing.
Speaker 1: You know what my drag name would be.
Speaker 2: Both on a TV show without me.
Speaker 1: I have a drag name that somebody should scoop up.
Speaker 1: A First Nation's drag queen, indie, genius.
Speaker 4: Indie genious, indigenous, Yeah, indigenous. Who that's good?
Speaker 1: Why doesn't anyone have that, Like, come on, somebody, take
Speaker 1: it's yours.
Speaker 2: It's yours.
Speaker 1: It'd be so bad to trust me.
Speaker 2: No talking shit.
Speaker 4: No, I would he'd love that.
Speaker 1: I would love it, but I would be bad. I've
Speaker 1: tried to think, and it's terrible.
Speaker 4: We don't have to lip sink. I'm a terrible lip syncer. Two.
Speaker 4: That's why I sing live there you go, And that
Speaker 4: would be even worse to me.
Speaker 1: But yeah, tell me about global starts. Were you approached.
Speaker 4: No, I've never been approached. I really loved being on
Speaker 4: drag Race and being there and filming it is like
Speaker 4: the most fun all of us. Adore Bunker, Darien, Ben, Milk, Laganga,
Speaker 4: Ga April, all of these names that we know and love,
Speaker 4: like it was such a golden era of drag Race.
Speaker 4: The personalities were amazing. It was fun to film it.
Speaker 4: But there's something about going back for me that is
Speaker 4: even going on drag Race in the first place. So
Speaker 4: I remember thinking like, is this a good idea? Do
Speaker 4: I want to do this? So now it was a
Speaker 4: really great idea. But there's a certain amount of control
Speaker 4: that you give over to sort of the editors to
Speaker 4: World of Wonder in telling your story and your narrative,
Speaker 4: and I feel that, like I've gone back and watched
Speaker 4: Drag Race season six. At the time it was like
Speaker 4: peak Twitter. I remember waking up every morning there was
Speaker 4: like nuanced characterizations about me that were sort of portrayed
Speaker 4: on Drag Race that I didn't feel aligned with who
Speaker 4: I was, and I kind of got sucked into the
Speaker 4: comment section. Like I'd wake up every morning literally the
Speaker 4: first hour and the last hour of every day was
Speaker 4: scrolling the comments and then like were replying to people
Speaker 4: trying to like make them love me because they were like,
Speaker 4: why were you mean to Joscelyn Fox, which really, to
Speaker 4: ninety eight percent of people who have watched Drag Race
Speaker 4: is not even a memory or a consideration in their
Speaker 4: head anymore. But it's those two percent of people who
Speaker 4: I think what happened there is they saw like Joscelyn
Speaker 4: who was like like portrayed as like a fan of me,
Speaker 4: and me being like rude or disrespectful to them, and
Speaker 4: it was sort of like this like weird hairline fracture
Speaker 4: of my core personality that like impacted how people and like,
Speaker 4: literally it doesn't matter now nobody even thinks about it,
Speaker 4: but still there's one comment on Everything Day with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really does.
Speaker 3: Like I remember when I was filming The Bacher at All,
Speaker 3: I think it was even The Bachelor, and they had
Speaker 3: these like forum rooms and you would go on the
Speaker 3: forums they were trying to sleuth. Basically, they were slouthing
Speaker 3: for the answers of who ends up with the honey
Speaker 3: badger at the end.
Speaker 2: And I was the same. I used to go on
Speaker 2: then and you were commenting.
Speaker 1: Like can you imagine if someone left and just walked
Speaker 1: away from him?
Speaker 3: Guys, and they had like weird names like bad girl,
Speaker 3: kiddy me or like something like it.
Speaker 1: Was Christian mum, but then calling you a whore.
Speaker 3: But there was this one person that was just so
Speaker 3: good at slothing that they just knew, like all the
Speaker 3: things that they would post were so accurate and were
Speaker 3: happening on the show. But they wrote this comment and
Speaker 3: told me that I was like really boring, and you
Speaker 3: know I wouldn't last like all this just really nicety stuff.
Speaker 2: And it's like really stuck with me.
Speaker 1: Boring.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I'm okay with being fucking boring.
Speaker 3: Like I don't try to be anything, you know, and
Speaker 3: if I'm boring, like fine, people get along with me,
Speaker 3: some people don't, and it sticks with you and you're like.
Speaker 1: How stuck with you? Because whenever someone says something about
Speaker 1: being boring and I've seen your reaction, it's like it's
Speaker 1: a it's a visceral thing where you're like, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think post Drag Race, watching it back was
Speaker 4: almost just like reckoning for me and like my disillusionment
Speaker 4: with my worldview at that time where I went in
Speaker 4: with it's really like self help, universe, Laura of attraction,
Speaker 4: kind of like vibe where I was like putting good
Speaker 4: things out there and then what I perceive that I
Speaker 4: got back with something negative and it kind of broke apart.
Speaker 4: I was like, wait, I was a good person, I
Speaker 4: did everything right. Why am I being punished in a
Speaker 4: weird good way. It kind of set me free from
Speaker 4: that where I was like, oh, actually, in life, even
Speaker 4: if you're a good person, sometimes shit happens and that's
Speaker 4: okay and you just have to accept your reality as
Speaker 4: it is. But the thought to go back to Drag
Speaker 4: Race or All Styles or Global All Stars, it just
Speaker 4: feels like where I'm at in my career personally, I
Speaker 4: think it would be so much fun, but like, actually,
Speaker 4: there's almost like too much at risk to hand over
Speaker 4: everything to somebody else. Now, I mean you will. I'm
Speaker 4: sure you'll see me on another reality show somewhere soon,
Speaker 4: because you know, Mama got to pay the bills. But
Speaker 4: I'd rather host a show or make documentaries or do
Speaker 4: interviews or podcasts or chat shows or something like that.
Speaker 1: Why the fuck is Michelle Vassage hosting and not you?
Speaker 1: Come on? Yeah, I said it, I mean, can do
Speaker 1: it in Canada. You would be amazing. But as a question,
Speaker 1: is there any rift between you and.
Speaker 4: Rue, I don't know. I mean there's never been. I'm
Speaker 4: definitely on like the Bad Kids list, like from I'm
Speaker 4: off the Christmas card list, although I did make it
Speaker 4: back on. There is a literal Christmas card list. I
Speaker 4: remember I wasn't on it for years, and then all
Speaker 4: of a sudden I got my World of Wonder like
Speaker 4: block of RuPaul chocolate Christmas card and I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm back on the Christmas card list. Maybe I still learn.
Speaker 4: Maybe I just moved and I didn't update my address.
Speaker 1: I just think that you would have been a great
Speaker 1: host and it would have been such an amazing representation
Speaker 1: for our country as you know, a drag queen who
Speaker 1: is you know, known as like one of the pinnacle
Speaker 1: drag queens from Australia to host the series. I think
Speaker 1: it was a no brainer. But yeah, but I mean,
Speaker 1: you've done more than drag race. You've done Dancing with
Speaker 1: the Stars.
Speaker 4: You've done the mass sing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about that dancing. I've been and this
Speaker 1: is a testament to anyone on Dancing with the Stars.
Speaker 1: But somebody told me don't do Dancing with the Stars
Speaker 1: because it will end your career. It obviously hasn't.
Speaker 4: No, why would it end your career?
Speaker 1: I know, it's ridiculous, what a stupid slogan. I think
Speaker 1: it was someone from Channel nine, But tell me that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the experience there and was it fun?
Speaker 2: It was your partner.
Speaker 4: His name's Josh. We're still best friends, Josh Keith. He's
Speaker 4: he's yeah, he's hot and lovely and amazing and it's
Speaker 4: so much fun. Like the thing that is fun about
Speaker 4: it is you are for six to eight hours a
Speaker 4: day for fifteen weeks. Is that long season one? Because
Speaker 4: it's twelve episodes twelve weeks. And then I think then
Speaker 4: we had rehearsal rehearsals. I think it was five weeks
Speaker 4: of rehearsals, so let's have seventeen weeks.
Speaker 1: That's a long time.
Speaker 4: No time for anything else, And like, when in life
Speaker 4: have you ever dedicated eight hours a day, five days
Speaker 4: a week to anything anything. Yeah, if you loved jobs,
Speaker 4: I guess we are boring people.
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, that sounds amazing. I mean dancing though,
Speaker 1: for that many hours a day it must be grueling.
Speaker 1: Did you like have any many bees? Did you break
Speaker 1: down throughout the series?
Speaker 4: No, my body kind of you know, there was a
Speaker 4: few things during Contemporary Week. I remember getting like a
Speaker 4: bruised rib or a crack trib or something or rather,
Speaker 4: but physically it was amazing, Like your fitness also something
Speaker 4: that people never think about bor and dancing it's basically
Speaker 4: like hugging someone. So you're dancing with them for like
Speaker 4: eight hours a day. It's like being hugged for eight hours,
Speaker 4: and there's something quite lovely and nourishing. One of my
Speaker 4: love languages is touched. So I'm just like dancing with
Speaker 4: Josh each day, just like holding each other, dancing away.
Speaker 4: It's very delightful.
Speaker 1: Well, that's beautiful. Would you go on any news shows.
Speaker 2: Like would you write your own show?
Speaker 4: Oh, I've been pitching brook. Oh I did that Channel
Speaker 4: ten pilot season. We had Courtney's Closet. We made the
Speaker 4: pilot we love very well received. But no, you know
Speaker 4: what I've realized, it's that thing with like every meeting
Speaker 4: that I go to. I was in the UK having meetings,
Speaker 4: in the US having meetings, everybody says, oh, it's really
Speaker 4: tough right now, everybody struggling. They want things that will
Speaker 4: definitely work. And so what I've realized, which is kind
Speaker 4: of been a theme of my career, is that sometimes
Speaker 4: rather than waiting for other people to say yes, you
Speaker 4: just go out and do it by yourself, which is
Speaker 4: where like YouTube, podcasting, these sorts of things are all
Speaker 4: really like of great tools to like young creatives or
Speaker 4: any creatives of any age, Like you can do things
Speaker 4: cheaply enough that you can get them online and just
Speaker 4: get the seed out there and start it going. So
Speaker 4: I went to the shop and I bought a whole
Speaker 4: bunch of new lights and things, and I've started sort
Speaker 4: of getting back on a YouTube train just at home
Speaker 4: in the drag room, which is fun, beautiful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like Courtney's Closet needs to be an actual,
Speaker 3: legitimate like series, whether it's on YouTube or something.
Speaker 2: I fucking loved that episode with Luke.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's now married to Amy Amy, which is
Speaker 5: one of my friends who was on my season, and
Speaker 5: I'm like, fuck, that was just like so wholesome and
Speaker 5: so like people need to see that.
Speaker 4: Ship, you know what. That day that we filmed, and
Speaker 4: I haven't asked Luke this, but that day that we filmed,
Speaker 4: he was going on a date, like a first date,
Speaker 4: and I in my mind, I've just decided that it
Speaker 4: was Amy, but I don't know if it was. But
Speaker 4: I just, for some reason, I want to be like
Speaker 4: the inceptions.
Speaker 1: You injected me with confidence.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's just called narcissism. Yes, in this business.
Speaker 1: With a bit of the show that I think of
Speaker 1: his survivor would you do it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, as Courtneyet, you get in drag on the first
Speaker 4: day stay. Yeah, it's like going to Mardi Gras and
Speaker 4: like leaving Mardy go at eight am when the sun
Speaker 4: comes up and you're still in drag. You've been on
Speaker 4: the dance for all night, like sweating, pashing people, and
Speaker 4: you're just like you're weeks, slightly askew your beds, poking
Speaker 4: through your lipsticks, all smudge, but you are still there.
Speaker 4: I feel like that should be for all.
Speaker 1: It's all drag queens and like it. It's like twelve
Speaker 1: drag queens and then not allowed to get out of that.
Speaker 4: That's it. We have this rule for the Diva Awards
Speaker 4: back in back in the day when we used to
Speaker 4: you know, party. The Diva Awards are on a Monday night,
Speaker 4: and the rule was nobody gets out of drag ever,
Speaker 4: So you would go out and I remember one night
Speaker 4: or one day or one day after the night, I
Speaker 4: remember turning to Vanity and I was like, oh, did
Speaker 4: you get out of drag? And she was like no,
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh, oh, I think you won.
Speaker 4: You didn't get out of it. Like she physically didn't
Speaker 4: get out of drag. She'd just been in drag so
Speaker 4: long that like the drag left her like it had
Speaker 4: like rubbed her himself. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh my, I wanted to talk to you about like
Speaker 1: a recent thing that's in the media about the census.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and you know, obviously it's been a conversation
Speaker 1: in the public. You were on the project. I think
Speaker 1: talking about it. Why are you so passionate about pushing that?
Speaker 4: Well, I think that Okay. So the Census Soviet that
Speaker 4: happens every five years in Australia to get sort of
Speaker 4: a snapshot of the Australian people and understanding who we are,
Speaker 4: where we live, and therefore how we can allocate resources
Speaker 4: and funds. And we kind of have these sort of
Speaker 4: ideas or percentages of like how many LGBTQ people there
Speaker 4: are in Australia. But often people who are detractors are
Speaker 4: sort of like, well, there's no we don't know this,
Speaker 4: it's not official information, and or they're like, oh, you're
Speaker 4: too freeingjoy, you're too niche. We're not going to bother
Speaker 4: with that, or we're not going to allocate resources because
Speaker 4: we don't actually know. And then the census is the
Speaker 4: perfect time to gather that data. But then so the
Speaker 4: Labor Government had agreed to include questions about sexuality and
Speaker 4: gender identity in the census, and then they sort of
Speaker 4: backpedal and withdrew them, and so a that just sucked
Speaker 4: because I think recording that data is really important. I
Speaker 4: think that having an understanding of our LGBTQ people are
Speaker 4: in Australia as well, really helps because like we are like, okay,
Speaker 4: let's say there's ten percent, and like do we just
Speaker 4: distribute that evenly? Like, actually, are there more people in
Speaker 4: regional areas who need more help or more money or
Speaker 4: is it all in the city, because like people would
Speaker 4: have you believe that all queer people live in Oxford Street. Yeah,
Speaker 4: of course, And so having a better understanding I think
Speaker 4: is this really important. I think just from a fundamental
Speaker 4: level of visibility, Yeah, every household in Australia. It sounds
Speaker 4: so weird and so like insignificant, but I think when
Speaker 4: you're a young queer person or any sort of minority
Speaker 4: who isn't used to seeing themselves, when all of a
Speaker 4: sudden you see yourself in an official document and you
Speaker 4: have the opportunity to sort of check that box. I
Speaker 4: remember actually Making Markell. She wrote an article about being
Speaker 4: mixed race, and she said that there was a box
Speaker 4: that was like white black, like it was kind of
Speaker 4: like pretty rudimentary boxes. And she was like, oh, I
Speaker 4: don't know which box to tick because my mum is
Speaker 4: black and my dad is white. Yeah, And she said
Speaker 4: to the teacher's the little girl in school here and
Speaker 4: she said that to the teacher, and the teacher was like, well, honey,
Speaker 4: you tick white because that's what you look like. And
Speaker 4: in that moment for her, there was like, but this
Speaker 4: is my mum. You want me to deny Yeah, my
Speaker 4: mother and half as to who I am because of
Speaker 4: like trying to fit into the right box. And her
Speaker 4: dad told her, you draw your own box, like you
Speaker 4: And there was something about the idea of like ticking
Speaker 4: those boxes and filling in those things that really helps
Speaker 4: us to feel seen and understood in who we are.
Speaker 4: And so I think for LGBTQ people seeing ourselves on
Speaker 4: the census and other people seeing that question on the
Speaker 4: census is a really powerful thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think it's First Nations people. We've
Speaker 1: had to tick a box most majority of our lives.
Speaker 1: You know, that whole idea of are you first Nations Aboriginal,
Speaker 1: Torrestraate islander that's what it was worded as, or Australian.
Speaker 1: You know, there was always like there's a difference. I
Speaker 1: never thought of it as denying a part of myself
Speaker 1: because my mummy is white. But I can understand where
Speaker 1: she's coming from. When she spoke about that but I
Speaker 1: think the census is obviously crucial, including that they've gone
Speaker 1: back on it right now, Yeah, so they're going to
Speaker 1: include it.
Speaker 4: They went back first with the sexuality question and said yes,
Speaker 4: we will ask people about their sexuality, and it was
Speaker 4: sort of like, oh, that's a good step in the
Speaker 4: right direction, and then we can sort of continue the pressure.
Speaker 4: People signed a petition a Quality Australia did a lot
Speaker 4: of amazing work, and then they announced that they would
Speaker 4: be including questions about gender as well, which is great.
Speaker 4: So we just have more data. The questions about intersex
Speaker 4: characteristics aren't included, but those weren't a part of the
Speaker 4: sort of agreed question and so that is something that
Speaker 4: is still to be worked on for the future. But
Speaker 4: I think having gender and sexuality included in the census
Speaker 4: is just a great thing.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know, there's three percent of the
Speaker 1: population that is first nation and that's just a million people.
Speaker 1: So in my mind, there is way more than a
Speaker 1: million homos out there.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about like it's a
Speaker 1: little bit left to field, but I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to you about recently you spoke about like exploring your
Speaker 1: masculinity and that side of things. Is that something that
Speaker 1: you've like recently discovering more of or is it like
Speaker 1: something that you're prioritizing more of. Why is it suddenly,
Speaker 1: you know, popped up for you.
Speaker 4: Well, I think masculinity was always something that I pushed against.
Speaker 4: I always thought that I wasn't masculine enough, and so
Speaker 4: there was sort of like a shame about that, and
Speaker 4: then sort of turning eighteen coming out still didn't feel
Speaker 4: like I was masculine enough, but then found that drag
Speaker 4: was an opportunity for me to express femininity in like
Speaker 4: a compartmentalized way. But then as a boy, despite not
Speaker 4: being masculine, would still always try to be more masculine
Speaker 4: and always felt like I was either performing masculinity and
Speaker 4: I was failing at that. So I think as I've
Speaker 4: gotten older and I've become more comfortable with the femininity
Speaker 4: and the masculinity, I've realized that even just straight culture
Speaker 4: and if I put masculinity and like heteronormative things all
Speaker 4: in one box, I was always just like ill. And
Speaker 4: I think now that I'm more comfortable in who I am,
Speaker 4: I don't feel threatened by those things, and so I'm
Speaker 4: interested in kind of exploring what masculinity means for me,
Speaker 4: and I think rather than trying to be masculine or
Speaker 4: perform masculinity or having shame about that, I'm just like, oh, well,
Speaker 4: who am I and just kind of like embracing all
Speaker 4: the parts of me, whether that's feminine or masculine.
Speaker 1: I love that. Is there anyone that you're inspired by
Speaker 1: that does that, that you can see that does it?
Speaker 4: Well? Well, that's the thing that I find really interesting.
Speaker 4: I'm actually doing a talk a panel at south By
Speaker 4: Southwest about masculinity and the idea. I think the title
Speaker 4: that I'm working with is something about positive role models
Speaker 4: masculinity positive role models, because there's lots of toxic masculinity
Speaker 4: role models like You're Andrew Taits and your Joe Rogan's
Speaker 4: and Jordan Peterson sort of advocates for a lot of
Speaker 4: that sort of stuff, and I think all of these
Speaker 4: young men, particularly straight men, are finding a message in
Speaker 4: those people, and I think a lot of that messaging
Speaker 4: can be toxic. So I'm like, masculinity isn't bad, but
Speaker 4: toxic masculinity is bad. And I think that sort of
Speaker 4: the fragile parts of masculinity like to misrepresent those conversations
Speaker 4: and say like, oh, you're not allowed to be a
Speaker 4: man anymore, and masculinity is toxic, And it's like no, no, no,
Speaker 4: masculinity is not toxic. Toxic masculinity is toxic, and what
Speaker 4: is positive masculinity? And therefore, who are the role models?
Speaker 4: And I think I've been doing lots of research. I
Speaker 4: was listening to like men's podcasts. It's so horrible. It
Speaker 4: was actually so horrible, yes, and like listening and watching
Speaker 4: documentaries and trying to like listen to like those folks
Speaker 4: on that side of the fence. And I realized that
Speaker 4: a lot of the content was about role modeling and
Speaker 4: that they were just giving young men a sense of
Speaker 4: belonging and a sense of community like maybe what we
Speaker 4: find in the queer community or like watching drag race,
Speaker 4: or like whatever it is they are finding in listening
Speaker 4: to these podcasts. And it was like being a part
Speaker 4: of something. Yeah, like yeah, it was like a big brother,
Speaker 4: like as in like to be a brother to someone.
Speaker 4: It was like here's how to get your hair cut,
Speaker 4: and here's how to like everybody looks good with the fade.
Speaker 4: And these are different types of hair products, and it
Speaker 4: was like beauty influences for blokes almost, and I just
Speaker 4: realized that, yeah, a lot of young men are just
Speaker 4: looking for role models. And so I know that I'm
Speaker 4: not a person that young straight blokes are going to
Speaker 4: listen to about masculinity, but perhaps as someone who had
Speaker 4: a complicated relationship to gender growing up and is sort
Speaker 4: of exploring those topics that maybe I'm now looking for, Well,
Speaker 4: who are the positive masculinity role models? So that's sort
Speaker 4: of what the south By Southwest talk will be all about.
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, it's such a nuanced conversation too, because,
Speaker 1: like I think, our experience as queen men is different
Speaker 1: to you know, those who identify as straight. And I
Speaker 1: think that, like sometimes I in the past have definitely
Speaker 1: had battles in my own mind about, you know, how
Speaker 1: to be feminine or to allow my feminine because I'm
Speaker 1: quite a feminine man naturally, and then I have this
Speaker 1: other masculine side that sometimes is a bit of a
Speaker 1: facade when I'm in a room full of other men,
Speaker 1: you know, that I feel like I need to bring
Speaker 1: to the table to be accepted.
Speaker 2: And hey, it gets all real straight Madie, I.
Speaker 4: Mean, yeah, it's a weird.
Speaker 1: It is. It's a weird thing that happens for me,
Speaker 1: especially when you know in this business a TV. It's
Speaker 1: like going in I call them pink dicks and you're
Speaker 1: talking to you know, white straight elderly men about roles
Speaker 1: and jobs and my pink dick syndrome. All of a
Speaker 1: sudden it drops in and I'm this straight, you know,
Speaker 1: masculine identity in this room, and I'm like, if that's
Speaker 1: not me, you know, there's a force there that feels
Speaker 1: that makes me feel like that. But yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1: Where is the conversation at and how can we be
Speaker 1: a part of it?
Speaker 4: It's at the ic C. It's part of south By Southwest,
Speaker 4: which I guess if you google.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be online.
Speaker 4: Yeah, T going TED talk. I haven't, and I've I've
Speaker 4: been asked, and I've thought about it, and I always
Speaker 4: try and like work out like what my TED talk
Speaker 4: would be, and I definitely think it would be about
Speaker 4: gender and sexuality and masculinity. So I feel like maybe
Speaker 4: the south By Southwest Talk is like dipping my toe
Speaker 4: in the water. It's a panel with some other speakers
Speaker 4: and yeah, I don't know. I just I'm always thinking about,
Speaker 4: like how do you be effective rather than how do
Speaker 4: you be right? Like I think it's easy to get
Speaker 4: up on my soapbox and point to finger. But I
Speaker 4: mean even last night I was at the Ensemble, the
Speaker 4: Ensemble Theater in Kurubilly. Yeah, yeah, thanks. I was like
Speaker 4: over the other side of the bridge, the other way,
Speaker 4: and I was watching a play. And the audience there
Speaker 4: are not even predominantly like one hundred percent like retirees,
Speaker 4: white silver hair, and yeah, like a very older audience
Speaker 4: who I presume a role of a similar lived experience,
Speaker 4: interested in similar things. And the play that we were watching,
Speaker 4: the Queens Nanny Had, it was just a few it
Speaker 4: was actually it was the word colonizer was said twice
Speaker 4: in jest, and I thought that word is probably a
Speaker 4: trigger for people in this room now that a part
Speaker 4: of that generation and sort of like a part of
Speaker 4: that narrative. But I could imagine that like all comments
Speaker 4: on like masculinity or like male privilege, I can imagine
Speaker 4: both of those topics in that room would get a
Speaker 4: grown or an eyeball roley. And I always think like
Speaker 4: and they were so subtly used, and it wasn't like
Speaker 4: aggressive or finger pointy or finger waggy. But I thought,
Speaker 4: how do you get people to incrementally like change their opinions?
Speaker 4: Like how do you what's the saying about, like hiding
Speaker 4: the something in the vegetable, adding the vegetables in the dessert.
Speaker 1: Or the meat or the meat LOFE.
Speaker 4: I don't know something. But like we're all on board
Speaker 4: and we're like making art and commentary, which sometimes can
Speaker 4: be a bit almost like not self congratulatory, but like
Speaker 4: like if you're already in the circle, then how do
Speaker 4: we get to the Coldplay fans?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And I feel that because what happens is when I
Speaker 1: talk about representation and mainstream representation, sometimes it's an echo
Speaker 1: chamber because I'm talking to Mota. Oh I'm on n ITV.
Speaker 1: Now It's like I'm preaching to the converted.
Speaker 4: How do you go out?
Speaker 1: How do you go outside of that box? It is
Speaker 1: like a task for people who want to make change,
Speaker 1: But I think there are ways to do it, and
Speaker 1: I think art.
Speaker 4: Is, Yeah, I think art is one of them. The
Speaker 4: thing that I come back to when I like, I
Speaker 4: sit there and I think about it and I think about,
Speaker 4: like what I would want to say if I was.
Speaker 4: I used to have this thing when I lived in
Speaker 4: the UK, if I was ever on like Piers Morgan's show,
Speaker 4: because I got asked to go on a bunch but
Speaker 4: I always said no, Okay, So I'd always have these
Speaker 4: imagine Mary conversations in my head and I'd always.
Speaker 1: Get the shower argument.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And I always got to the end and
Speaker 4: I was like, the reason that you're saying no is
Speaker 4: because there's actually no point in engaging these people on
Speaker 4: their line of questioning. And the best way forward is
Speaker 4: through positive storytelling. It's through role modeling, having positive storytelling
Speaker 4: that platforms like LGBTQ, people, First Nations people, you know,
Speaker 4: empowering stories for women that aren't almost like they're not
Speaker 4: reactionary to the patriarchal gaze, where it's just like people
Speaker 4: thriving and being themselves and then the people watching sort
Speaker 4: of seeing the shared humanity in that.
Speaker 1: It's living you want to see the world, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The funny thing is it doesn't feel like you're doing anything.
Speaker 4: When you're like arguing with somebody and telling them why
Speaker 4: they're wrong. You feel really like, oh, I really done
Speaker 4: the work today, totally just having fun and living your
Speaker 4: life and telling wonderful stories about your community. It almost
Speaker 4: doesn't feel like you've done anything. But I actually think
Speaker 4: in a weird way, in the long term, I feel
Speaker 4: like that does more.
Speaker 3: Because droplets in an ocean, yeahs like it's just a ripple,
Speaker 3: you know, it just start to filter.
Speaker 4: Out, it does it. Sometimes I doesn't feel like it's
Speaker 4: happening fast enough. But I think that just telling more
Speaker 4: positive stories and like doing that positive role modeling is
Speaker 4: really the thing that changes.
Speaker 1: And I love when you have a plethora of like
Speaker 1: people in a community. You need your extremists, you know,
Speaker 1: you need people who allowed like you know, I think
Speaker 1: of lydia in our community. I'm like, I don't agree
Speaker 1: with everything you say, but gee, you make some noise, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and like we need those people, and we
Speaker 1: need the people who are just doing there. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know day to day sort of like you need to have.
Speaker 3: A shit day to have a good day, Like you
Speaker 3: need the days to fucking heaven, so you appreciate the
Speaker 3: good ones.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think those extreme views and those people
Speaker 4: who are like further like we probably follow like people
Speaker 4: who are a lot more radical than I do. And
Speaker 4: I agree with a lot of the things they say,
Speaker 4: and I feel inspired by those people, and I take
Speaker 4: part of their message, and then I think of myself
Speaker 4: here sort of closer to the middle and being like,
Speaker 4: all right, how do I they're pushing the boundary feather
Speaker 4: that way, which creates more space in the middle for me.
Speaker 4: How do I then also sort of listen to what
Speaker 4: they're saying and incorporate some of their messaging in ways
Speaker 4: that people who I talk to might understand.
Speaker 1: Well, I think over the years I've seen that you've been,
Speaker 1: you know, a great daylight of First nation people. It's
Speaker 1: started way back on Rupu's drag race. Let's do a
Speaker 1: full circle moment with my flag.
Speaker 4: That was the correct way around, the correct way around.
Speaker 1: You were the first to bring you our flag to
Speaker 1: an international you know stage, And I think from that moment,
Speaker 1: and you know, throughout your career you've always championed first
Speaker 1: nation's voices. What is it about using your platform to
Speaker 1: do that not just for first nations but people outside
Speaker 1: of your own lived experience. Why is it really important
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 4: I think that as a queer person, I have come
Speaker 4: to understand, probably through my own healing or as i've
Speaker 4: like understood myself more. Actually, Brene Brown has a quote
Speaker 4: that's like, empathy cannot exist where shame does. And so
Speaker 4: when I was younger and had shame about my identity,
Speaker 4: I probably wasn't being very good at being empathetic to
Speaker 4: anybody with a struggle different to my own. And I
Speaker 4: think that's why, particularly in the gay male community, the
Speaker 4: white gay male community, we have sort of seen like
Speaker 4: sexual racism and things like that play such a part,
Speaker 4: and whilst we are part of a minority, we often
Speaker 4: aren't able to reach across the aisle and be allies
Speaker 4: to other people, like white gay men can particularly sort
Speaker 4: of reinforce some of those negative ideas. Sometimes hashag not
Speaker 4: a white gay men. And so I think that as
Speaker 4: I kind of healed my shame, I then saw that
Speaker 4: there was intersections of being queer that were there was
Speaker 4: like a shared experience, and that's what I love about
Speaker 4: being queer. So I was like, oh, queer First Nations people,
Speaker 4: we share our queerness and there's something about our shared
Speaker 4: queer identity that helps me understand other people's experiences. And
Speaker 4: then I'm like, I'm able to sort of use that
Speaker 4: as an empathetic connection to someone's experience who I don't understand.
Speaker 4: I can't understand, but I listen and I believe and
Speaker 4: I see that other people's allies ship was important in
Speaker 4: me getting the liberation that I now have, and therefore
Speaker 4: I can be a part in being a good ally
Speaker 4: to other people, particularly First Nations people here in Australia. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love to see it, and I think, you know
Speaker 1: you obviously continue to do that. So thank you, thank
Speaker 1: you for that. Thank you, We appreciate it. But thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on our pod. It's cool
Speaker 1: to have you back in the country. It's nice to
Speaker 1: see you again. I mean, what is happening in the
Speaker 1: future for you, Like, what's what's the next thing for you?
Speaker 1: Before we wrap up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm excited because I'm going up to Brisbane, my hometown,
Speaker 4: for the Melt Festival, which is this open access queer
Speaker 4: arts festival. It goes for three weeks. It basically means
Speaker 4: anybody is welcome to put in a show, but it's
Speaker 4: like a festival of queer art culture happening in Brisbane
Speaker 4: from October twenty third. Yes, for three weeks. There's so
Speaker 4: many events, Like there's the people that I know in
Speaker 4: love like Harms is doing a show, and much of
Speaker 4: Borrow's doing a show, but there's plenty of other really
Speaker 4: great shows. And it's culminating with a river Pride parade.
Speaker 4: Oh so like Mardi Gras, hop happens on the street
Speaker 4: in Brisbane. They're doing a pride parade on the river on.
Speaker 1: Boats like the Olympics, like the Gay Olympics, but hopefully.
Speaker 4: Like with less complaints and less range.
Speaker 1: Yeah and less Now it was a little bit. Oh,
Speaker 1: I hope Lady Gaga is flying into.
Speaker 4: Perform No, I am you are there, you go. I'm
Speaker 4: currently getting the dress made. I'm like, how many meters
Speaker 4: of bellowing chiffon is safe to have flowing off the
Speaker 4: end of a ship.
Speaker 1: At least five?
Speaker 4: At least five. But yeah, if you're in Brisbane or
Speaker 4: if you're in that area, like look up the Mount
Speaker 4: Festival because there's so many like fun, queer, cabaret, theater, music,
Speaker 4: Spencer Tunic as well. If you've ever wanted to get
Speaker 4: naked on the.
Speaker 1: Story Bridge, I ever wanted to get naked in general.
Speaker 4: In general, you can be photographed by Spencer Tunic as
Speaker 4: a part of one of those mass where if you
Speaker 4: don't know who Spencer Tunic is. He does those photos
Speaker 4: where like thousands of people get naked and beach.
Speaker 1: I just couldn't do it. I mean, I just couldn't
Speaker 1: do it. I'm like, oh, I just I just think
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm too much of a grower, not.
Speaker 4: A show avenue same.
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's just wouldn't be my vibe.
Speaker 2: I'm the same.
Speaker 4: I can do it taped, but then I feel like
Speaker 4: I'm cheating. I feel like the whole point is about
Speaker 4: like liberation, but maybe it's about baby steps.
Speaker 1: I do want to say, you know, Brisbane is a
Speaker 1: good place to have a good time. So October twenty third.
Speaker 4: Yeah, go all the way through the next three weeks.
Speaker 2: We'll probably pop it in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people can do that.
Speaker 4: And then the River Pride Parade is on that final Saturday,
Speaker 4: the ninth of November.
Speaker 2: In Sydney.
Speaker 1: Oh, Brooks should be fine and go for the River Preade.
Speaker 4: Come, let's get on the boat. Speak to Harry.
Speaker 1: Call it the brown Snake.
Speaker 4: The brown Snake is the Brisbane River.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you so much, Courtney.
Speaker 4: Love to see you, lovely to talk to you bout