WEBVTT - Inside the 16 Hour Lindt Cafe Siege 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.320 We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.840 on which this podcast was produced, the Gadigel people of 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.440 the urination. We pay our respects to elders past and present. 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.360 This episode contains Ben Besant's first hand experience of the 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:19.640 Link Cafe siege and includes discussions of terrorism, violence, death 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.520 and PTSD. If any of these topics are triggering for you, 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.160 please give this episode a miss or seek help by 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.720 visiting lifelines website at lifeline dot org dot au or 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.000 by calling thirteen eleven fourteen. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.720 It's December fifteenth, twenty fourteen, and a terrorist has eighteen 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.520 people held hostage inside the Link Cafe in the heart 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.600 of the Sydney CBD. A police operation is underway in 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.120 Martin Place in Sydney, CBD. 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.919 We just got some breaking news as a police operation 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.080 are underway in the heart of the city and several 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:55.760 police vehicles are at the scene. 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:56.960 What you're watching is live. 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.840 It's happening here in Martin Place, thirty forty meters from 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:00.800 We're standing. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.840 Tactical Operations Unit Officer Ben Besant is in position with 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.680 his M four pointed directly at the target. 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.800 There are dozens and dozens of place, some very heavily 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.720 armed in helmets and care blastsuits. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.840 Through the window, Ben sees the man wearing a backpack 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.920 stretched by its contents and two wires looping out from 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:25.920 the bottom, one black and the other red. He knows 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.760 the second that goes off, he and everyone around him 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.720 are dead. He sends off one last text to his 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.399 pregnant wife at home, asking for some photos of their 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:43.000 young daughter. But Ben has a job to do and 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:47.360 there's no decision to be made. He isn't leaving these hostages. 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:55.440 I'm at Middleton and this is Headgame today inside the 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.880 mind of the man brought the Link Cafe Siege to 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:08.280 a close. I am super stoked to have Ben Bezant 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:12.400 on my podcast head Game. Now. This man is a 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.960 man of my own heart. He was a tactical Operations 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:20.880 unit officer in the Linked Cafe Siege. Mate, We've got 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.359 loads to talk about. It's an absolute pleasure having you 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.120 on here. And like I said, mate, you are a 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.320 man of my own heart and I can't wait to 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.040 get into the thicker things. But before we do, how 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.920 did you get it involved with becoming part of this unit? 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.600 Was it always something that you you grew up with 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:38.680 was your father in the in the police force? Did 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.639 you have a military background? How did that happen? 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.600 Firstly, made a pleasure to be on this on this 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.760 podcast with you and quite the introduction you just gave me, 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:55.960 which is which is appreciated to start off with your questions. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.360 My it was more my grandfather. He was in the 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.880 Royal Australian Air Force as a flight engineer. His father, 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:12.600 so my great grandfather was in the Austrai Lighthorse involved 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.480 in the Battle of Beersheba and stuff like that. But 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.000 growing up, I would say, yeah, my grandfather was a 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.480 huge part of my life, told me lots of stories 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:27.720 relating to his unit, war stories, all that type of thing. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.600 So yeah, it always it did have an impact and 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:33.799 shaping me going forward in life. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.040 I'd say, why did you choose to go police and 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.880 not military if the military was sort of ingrained in 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:41.160 you from a young age. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.480 Yes, So I'd say after I left school, I decided 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.480 I was just scanning to take it easy for a 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:50.560 little while. I went and worked with my dad doing 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.360 excavation and a number of other jobs. I always imagine 0:03:54.440 --> 0:04:00.720 just joining joining the army through school obviously wanted to 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.480 be in the double A F which require great deal 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:10.320 of schoolwork and aptitude in that area, which I may 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.920 have fallen slightly short on. So I was processing that 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:15.680 for a little while. But yeah, I always imagine I 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.960 joined the army. Then a good made of mine who 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.040 was in the police force, having a good chats to him, 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.240 telling us all the sort of things that they do 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.120 and how good it was. And still in the back 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.200 of my mind the whole time, I always imagined joining 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.279 the military. So I did. I signed up with the 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:37.320 police Force. I joined them. It wasn't fulfilling that side 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:42.159 of me, the service and the wanting to be more 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.360 military based, so I did join the Army reserves. I 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.680 was in that for probably a year. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:49.000 And a half. 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.080 I was trained in infantry, attached to one commando, which 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.240 is the reserve unit over here. 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.240 And that's all wise. Being in the police. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.760 Yeah, well yeah, they're very dommodating with that. They give 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:03.679 you a leave for all that. So yeah, my plan 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.760 was to then go on and do selection, and a 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:08.680 lot of people once they actually get through in the 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.599 reserve selection, then move into the full time commandos. But 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.880 I always knew about the TU the taxic operations unit, 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.719 which is realistically the closest thing to the military within 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:22.040 the police force. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.679 So you're like a special force within the police force. Right. 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.520 Yeah. So the way it's set up with governments in 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:34.760 Australia and each state, so we are responsible for the 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:39.279 counter terrorism response for New South Wales. So that's why 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.480 we take a year of course, as we do above 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:46.680 and beyond other things. We do helicopter operations, fast ope 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.440 and all that sort of thing, lots of tactical raping courses, 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:58.360 all our water operations training and then active shooter so 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:01.960 do all of that and we're trained to do that 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.719 because ultimately, if there's a terrorist attack in New South Wales, 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:07.480 what happens is we respond. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.200 So so you're doing you're doing all your tactical training, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.960 you're fast roping and and your firearms training, et cetera, 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.880 et cetera. We're going to jump now, we're going to 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:24.840 jump straight into into Martin Place. And for those of 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.720 you that no Martin Place, you know the Link cafe 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.440 very well, and you know we know it very well 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.240 because it was global coverage. I remember watching it being 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:40.560 live streams and but to take me through when you 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.159 woke up, what you know how how the day went 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.720 and how it just transpired into all of a sudden 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.520 being fucking at that door, cameras in your face, the 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.800 whole world's attention is zoomed in on your team. 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.120 Yeah, it was a big day and it's a day 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.800 that that I'll never forget. I'd say more the aftermath 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.200 of everyone with their opinions. It should have been done differently. 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.240 It should have been done by the special forces, it 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.760 should have been Everyone has an opinion on everything. But yeah, 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.040 so that morning, I was just on shift, so I 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:19.040 started at seven am. I was actually in our unit 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:23.280 because we're specialized and obviously see a lot of trauma 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.760 and that they make our unit go and see the 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:30.200 shrinks that they have within the police force. I'd say 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.640 more a box sticking exercise than anything. But as I 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:39.520 came back into the office, I knew instantly something something 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:44.600 was wrong. I just go back slightly before that. Before that, 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.320 we knew it was a matter of time. We've been 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.680 doing lots of c T works, so counter terrorism work. 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.320 We've been arresting. There was a large cellar I think 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.200 it was up to thirty to forty guys. So we've 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.600 been doing a lot of arrests in relation to that. 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.040 Leading up to it, there was the attack there the 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.720 two guys down in Victoria, the counter Terrian police, it 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:09.560 stabbed obviously after nine to eleven, and there's terrorist incidents 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.680 happening around the world, so we knew something was coming. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.560 Constant briefings daily. But yeah, as I came back into 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:18.680 the office, it was it was just a very different feel. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.920 Straight away, police negotiate a running through the office, which 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:25.120 is something you never see. 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.680 Its ag fider sentences. Yeah. 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:32.040 Yeah, and then as I walked in, my sergeant there, 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.439 he's walked up. Just grab your stuff, we're going, and 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.240 I believe I just said to him, so the big 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:43.040 one's happening, and he's gone, yep, let's go. So that's all. 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.959 I took race downstairs. There was another operator in there, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.600 our armored vehicle, so we rushed down to Martin Place 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.079 and it was just a scene of chaos as you 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.920 can imagine. There's General Judy's cops everywhere trying to clear 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.079 pedestrians off the street. There was our guys trying to 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:07.240 file into positions, and I was allocated to the Alpha team, 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:12.200 the Entry team straight away and we're being briefed honestly, 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.839 as by the seconds things were changing. But right from 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.199 the beginning we were told a man in Middle East 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:24.040 in appearance with a shotgun and a backpack, claiming to 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.480 have explosives in the cafe. So yeah, I'd say, right 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.920 from the beginning, I knew it was real. Wow. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.440 So when's the first time you step on the ground 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.319 and you as an individual and as team start processing 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.320 and breaking this down because now you're the eyes and ears. 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.560 Yeah, of course, and then as you know, you're scrambling 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.319 trying to get in tell the other you're trying to 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.160 work out best positions. Yeah, we had Sierra teams, so 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.480 sniper teams going up. We had three separate sniper teams 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:57.319 in different locations. They really had very limited vision. And 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.760 initially we pulled up on say, on the street down 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.960 the bottom on Elizabeth Street with Martin place. Then we 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.800 were deployed up on the Phillip Street. It's like a 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.040 truckloading bay, which is only really thirty meters or so 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:15.520 from the front entry. And yeah, like you said, you 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.800 need eyeball into, you need vision in to see what's 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.720 going on. You can only there's only so much vision. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:26.320 The snipers had so that's why myself and my shieldman, PAULI, 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.040 we went to our team there and said, look, this 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.160 is this is not good. We don't have any real 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.560 intel on what's going on. We've had no eyeball into 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.280 there for a while. So he gave us permission to 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.640 push forward. So it was just my shieldman and myself 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.760 was the first cover man. We pushed forward to the 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.440 first of four windows on the cafe, and from there 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.880 I was able to, yeah, get eyeball into the cafe. 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.640 I was able to get quite a bit of vision 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.040 what was happening inside. I saw a number of hostages 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:01.040 in there who were completely traumatized, visibly shape and crying. 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:03.800 I saw a number of them holding up the black 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:09.400 Islamic flags to the front windows opposite Channel seven. And then, yeah, 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.840 I saw him quite quite a few times. I saw 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.599 his shotgun. I saw the way he was moving. He 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:24.680 was very serious straightaway, and the backpack, it was a 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.680 big black camel mountain back and I could see clearly 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:33.360 two wires protruding from the bottom. In my mind, my 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.439 shieldman's mind, and my supervisor who pushed forward, we wholeheartedly 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.640 believe it was a bomb right from the beginning, we've 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.320 done lots of specialist training with the military so and 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.160 all that sort of thing, and so from everything, all 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:48.960 their training, we believe it was a bomb right from 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.000 the beginning, which changes the whole course of the job, 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:52.440 as you can. 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.480 Absolutely it does. Absolutely, it's you know, you're on tender 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.560 hooks there. You know, you've got your thinking. You know, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.640 people don't realize hostage rescue is exactly that. You know, 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.680 if you can, if you can rescue all of those 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.240 hostages and you don't have to fire around them. Wow, 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.719 So you're up against the window, You've got good eyes on. 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:16.920 Now do you ever lock eyes with the terrace? Do 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.319 you ever lock eyes with the with the target? And 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.360 when you get there and you see the hostages, is 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.640 there ever a moment where you're just like whoa, Yeah. 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:30.319 So we actually got vision into the cafe, probably up 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.200 to thirty minutes or so. The whole time he was 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.199 walking around or any anytime he went past the window, 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.040 he'd always have the shotgun on a hostage, so he'd 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.080 always be marching a hostage around with him or to 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.920 the back of the head. So for everyone, for people 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:48.720 out there saying it should have been a sniper shot, 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.400 rot from the beginning. That obviously avoids that. As you know, 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.640 the body's natural reaction if your shot is to jerk, 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.439 hence to pull the trigger, which would kill a hostage. 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.840 We didn't realize at the time through the building manager 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.800 that it used to be a bank to so they're 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:10.120 glasses tough and glass to it specialized around for that. Yeah. 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.080 And then and then also on top of that, common 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.200 practice for that time the dead man switch on the 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.400 bomb too, isn't it. So you shoot him even if 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:19.959 you shot him in the right spot, he didn't kill 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.640 a hostage released dead man switch, everyone in the cafe 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.080 is dead instantly, So that was always a consideration there. 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.720 So you're feeding back intel, I suppose you're receiving at 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.840 tenfold as well. What's the process like through your head 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:40.280 put us in your head in that time when all 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.640 of this information has just been you're being overwhelmed with it. 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:48.800 Yeah, So our primary job is to get intel on 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.160 each of the hostages, back descriptions of them, and we 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:54.840 did manage to see them for quite a while, and 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.880 as much intel and information on him, I'd say on 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.319 a personal level, me seeing a lot of these hostages 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.760 as you can imagine you get a bit of an 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.640 emotional attachment to them, so it becomes more than just 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:13.680 a job with just numbers, and you're overwhelming instinct with 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.400 people who in our line of where you want to 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.080 you want to go in and rescue, You want to 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:20.400 do your job. You want to be allowed to do 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:24.120 your job and go in and that wasn't allowed to 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:25.960 happen for quite a long time. 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:36.280 What's going through your head? 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:36.520 You know? 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:37.880 As the times ticking. 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.560 We were there for up to sixteen hours, so it 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:46.520 was a It was a long day, and we obviously 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.600 chatted amongst ourselves in a group, and we all believed 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.920 it was a bomb, and we sort of the darking 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.560 of joking about it. We all go in there, we 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.000 be your medals for the missus and the families, all 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.600 that sort of thing. But yeah, then it became quite 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.640 real where we one hundred percent believe we run into 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.320 that cafe, he's going to set the bomb off. Every 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.320 one of us is going to die. So that was 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.640 a confronting realization, but it was something that everyone in 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:18.960 my team and I believe the other team, we all 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.440 had to get over and we dealt with emotionally that 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:27.840 the moment we run in there, beyond probability, we all 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:29.920 believe we were going to die. So that was that 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.880 was difficult for us, to the point we all sent 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.240 messages home on I did. I sent message to my 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.880 wife at the time, tried saying my goodbys who text 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:42.160 messaged without Alami? I know what I thought? Yeah, I 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.440 got it to send some some picks on my little girl. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.960 And yeah, that was that was a real, very real 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:55.000 and confronting moment. She being pregnant too. I never believed 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:56.880 I was going to be able to see my my 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:57.600 second you know. 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:02.040 And how did that work for you? Psychological? Does it 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.320 ramp you up? Does it gee you up? Or is 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.000 it a case of listen, I just wanted to see 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.440 your face before before this, before this ship show kicks off. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.200 Yeah, I'd say with this job it was it was 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.800 different than other jobs. I'm assuming I'd probably deal with things. 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:20.840 It's the same with you just deal with the situation 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.440 and worry about ramifications later. Normally it's it happens, but 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.040 being there for sixteen hours and talking about it amongst 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:35.760 your mates and yeah, it just became very real. And yeah, yeah, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.760 one hundred percent believe that I go in there that 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.680 I'm going to die. So I was in a roundabout 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.160 way saying goodbye, and I just wanted to see a 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.640 couple more pics of my daughter again. One of my 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.600 best mates, PAULI, is a shield man. He's showing me 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.120 some pics of his He's yeah, young like so, yeah, 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.400 I think in a roundabout way. Yeah, he even said 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.600 to me, I love you, bro, and yeah, I said, 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.480 I love you man. So in sort of a rand 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.680 about way, we were sort of saying goodbye to each other. 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.280 So fucking emotional rollercoaster. 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:05.960 Yeah wow. 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.600 And then you get the green light, tell me about 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:15.119 that coming over the radio, right, you know, greenlit, let's go. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.199 So as you know, you're prepared the whole day, but 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.240 then you have different situations where ramps right up and yeah, 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.760 you adrenaline's pumping. You've got to try and deal with that, 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:30.920 not suppress it, but use it. But yeah, so highs 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.440 and loads all day. But then the radio call coming 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.000 over that they believed they were settling down for the night, 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.280 and then it was within thirty seconds of that we 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:45.680 heard the first shotgun within the cafe go off. So yeah, 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:50.160 from that very moment where completely high and we're completely ready. 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.840 We're just desperate to go in. I remember even looking 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.639 forward at Paulie and he's just rocking on his feet. 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:01.480 We're just like just desperate, just just waiting go and 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.879 then yeah, no call. We didn't go in from that 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.719 point with the shotgun, we didn't have too much intel 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.640 coming in. Straight away. We knew hostage had run out. 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:13.719 We had one one guy actually run up and then 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.320 run down Phillip Street so we could see him, so 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.439 we knew hostages come out. We knew he'd been fired on. 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.520 And then we get that coming over the radio and 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.640 it's yeah, so we're just ready, we're heightened one hundred percent, 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.800 we're mentally prepared. And then there was a second shotgun 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.840 blast went off a little bit later. That was when 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.880 he actually took one of the hostages. Tory Johnson had 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.359 him on his knees and the first round he's actually 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.600 fired above his head. We didn't know this at the time, 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.119 but this is obviously what I know now. Our snipers 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.159 had very limited vision. Then there was a third a 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.639 third shot rang out and still remember the words coming 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.880 over hostage down, white window two, hostage down, what window too? 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:03.320 So we knew he'd now execute to hostage. Yeah, which 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:07.600 is difficult to still even talk about. Yeah, the code 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.760 word the EA co woard came over Tiger. Tiger Tiger. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:15.680 So paulis shellman carrying ballistic shield. As you know, they're 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.840 pretty they're pretty heavy, but set off a great rate. 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.440 He sprints down to the front entry windows. It's two 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:28.159 large paned glass windows propped on the left. I'm in position, 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.440 muzzle up just over his left shoulder, got my light 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.960 source on steering into the cafe, just desperate to find him. 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.640 A lot of glare coming back off the cafe. And 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.479 as I'm sure you know, everything in these situation just 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.880 slows down like so much's it's ridiculous how much it's 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:51.080 slow down. And I remember looking in scanning, I've seen him. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:53.880 Our EA was the last two blokes on the stack 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:55.879 to try and punch through the first window with a 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:59.320 breaching shotgun and deployee sand and flash grenades through the 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.119 first window. That's our only form of distraction we were 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.719 approved to use. And as I touched on before, we 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:07.439 couldn't get through. It used to be a bank, so 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.879 the rounds they had couldn't get through. So even that 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.400 didn't work. But as I've looked in, I've sighted him 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.200 my light, so I've picked him up. He's still wearing 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.000 his white shirt. Still see the straps on the backpack. 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.080 He's initially looking up to them. Then he's seen me 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.879 and he's ye swiveled. He had his shotgun off his 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.280 hip and swiveled it straight to face me, and we 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:33.520 had our eyes completely locked. At that point, I was 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:38.000 just waiting for the breacher, which felt like it took 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.320 too long in the moment because everything had slowed down 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:42.760 so much. They might have been a second or two, 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:43.080 you know. 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.280 But even a split second, even a. 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.760 Split second, and he can't really explain it to people 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:53.440 who haven't lived it. But then yeah, he's breached out 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:58.440 the glass window on the left, Paul. He's stepped in 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.080 and I just as soon as I took my first step, 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:05.000 just fire a movement, just bang, cracked off around at him. 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.800 I ad my light, saw some laser pointer center body mouse, 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.160 and I got off two rounds, i'd say, and that's 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.199 when he fired on us the first time. And in 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:19.399 a dark space like a cafe, you can imagine a 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.600 muzzle flash from a shotgun, huge flash. I knew it 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:26.760 at that point being fired upon, but still my shield 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.000 man's sort of some cover. So yeah, I just kept 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.240 I just kept moving to the threat, as we were 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:35.119 trained to do. Just push to the threat, and I 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:40.639 just kept firing on the move. I did hear someone 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.080 screaming out man down, man down, behind me, but I 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.960 knew I had to block it out because my job 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.000 and the only chance I believed in that time, was 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:53.639 to get him down. So he was incapable of detonating 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:58.520 the bomb, so I was completely fixated on him, and 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:00.840 getting rid of him is a threat. I had to 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.399 block everything out. I continued to walk forward, just firing 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.080 in the movement. Every time the muzzle of stabile ized, 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:11.119 just crack another round off, and I hit something with 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.600 my foot that there was a partition. At some point, 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.040 I stopped and just kept firing, and that's when he 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:21.199 fired off his second round. And in that moment I 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:25.359 became this is probably seven meters away, you know, pretty close. 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.919 You doing well to miss with a shotgun at that range. 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.960 And I became very aware in that moment that I 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:35.560 was now on my own. My shield man had been 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:38.679 the first round that he cracked off actually hit the 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.640 other glass entry door, clipped his shield as well, and 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:44.879 that the whole weight of that glass came down on 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:46.840 top of him and it just just pulled him the 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:50.399 shield down momentarily, like we said before, but enough for 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.760 me to keep pushing forward. But yeah, in that moment, 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:58.080 I still remember behind my rifle, just squinting. I was 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:00.359 sure I was going to get hit, you know, a 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:04.840 shotgunder that range, and I didn't. It's just good. And 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.040 then yeah, I kept kept firing on him, and then 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:13.600 I yeah, within my head the questioning why hadn't he 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:15.760 gone down? I knew my rounds were hitting. I was 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.760 sent a body mask, my laser pointers on him, so 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.440